Thanks to Tory psychosis about Europe, we're now heading full steam towards a hard left Labour government and no EU free market and competition rules to restrain them.
So thanks for that.
It was the public who voted for it, and 52% of the voting electorate are not tories. Tories didn't create that 52%, they're just the biggest bunch in it.
The Tories mis-framed the referendum, failed to plan for a Leave vote, pissed about for 2 years arguing amongst themselves and have made an absolute horlicks of negotiating our exit.
I don't think you'll find the electorate blaming themselves!
Never said they would. The Tories are in office, and have handled it badly due to party infighting, so will pay the price. But they didn't start it.
That's precisely what they did do!
No they didn't. They didn't create the public desire to leave that built and built to the point they felt they needed to give us a choice. The main party wanted us to make a different choice, but people from across the spectrum said otherwise.
To pretend the tories created the Brexit push is to give them too much influence. They opened a door, but they didn't make it and we chose, against advice, to walk through. While the Gov will of course be blamed for bad implementation, the public chose Brexit, not the tories.
A fair proportion of the public chose PPI - whose fault was that?
Anyone who is surprised by this speech from Corbyn doesn't know what Labour's left is actually all about. The looney left/hard left stereotype is pretty much the creation of the right wing tabloids. I'd personally pick the Blairite version of Labour given the choice, but Corbyn's approach isn't off the scale crazy as it often portrayed.
Allying with Hezbollah, the IRA, Hamas and Putin is completely off the scale crazy.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
It's Toby Young, though. A *world class* knob head.
Like us, he's spent a signifant proportion of his life trolling on the internet. Unlike us, though, he demanded to be taken seriously. That's where he went wrong.
I personally know Toby Young pretty well. He was a boorish if sometimes amusing drunk in his 20s, and a laddish but sometimes eloquent loafer in his 30s, in others words, quite like me, or you? We've all done and said stupid shit.
Since then I have met him and corresponded with him quite a few times, and (you can believe me or not) he has sincerely transformed into a thoughtful, hardworking, imaginative, and determined reformer on all kinds of educational matters. He's had success and failure, but he really means it, and he REALLY knows what he's talking about on lots of this stuff.
He personally gave me very good and kind advice when I had a painful, difficult family/educational decision to make. He took time to help me.
He's a nice guy, now. And very smart. He'd have been a good diverse voice on that board.
Instead, his talents are thrown aside and his reputation trashed because of some stupid tweets and the mere fact he's rightwing. It's ridiculous and sad. And it's now happening to the left as well:
Time for the classic 'Would Noah forgive someone for the same thing if they were on the right/woukd his critics be mad at ome of their own saying it' test.
Personally, I don't think saying stupid, offensive things should see someone be an outcast forevermore. And you can only apologise so much. Woukd need to consider case by case.
@MaxPB I think your four Tory MPs increases dramatically depending upon what power the brex-o-loons are able to grab.
A Mogg or even Boris takeover means it's all up for grabs.
The ERG won't even be able to get one of its own to the final round let alone win the members' ballot. They will back whichever candidate is most Leave-y.
Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.
In a world which has never been more uncertain, the absolute certainty of posters here on future political outcomes strikes a reassuring note. One can't help thinking of the Bourbons: they learn nothing but forget nothing.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
It's Toby Young, though. A *world class* knob head.
Like us, he's spent a signifant proportion of his life trolling on the internet. Unlike us, though, he demanded to be taken seriously. That's where he went wrong.
I personally know Toby Young pretty well. He was a boorish if sometimes amusing drunk in his 20s, and a laddish but sometimes eloquent loafer in his 30s, in others words, quite like me, or you? We've all done and said stupid shit.
Since then I have met him and corresponded with him quite a few times, and (you can believe me or not) he has sincerely transformed into a thoughtful, hardworking, imaginative, and determined reformer on all kinds of educational matters. He's had success and failure, but he really means it, and he REALLY knows what he's talking about on lots of this stuff.
He personally gave me very good and kind advice when I had a painful, difficult family/educational decision to make. He took time to help me.
He's a nice guy, now. And very smart. He'd have been a good diverse voice on that board.
Instead, his talents are thrown aside and his reputation trashed because of some stupid tweets and the mere fact he's rightwing. It's ridiculous and sad. And it's now happening to the left as well:
I have qualified sympathy for him (qualified, as he clearly was a complete knob some time ago, and also since I don't know enough about him to make an informed comment/judgment on his current problems).
If people can't be allowed and/or expected to change, it would be to the huge detriment of society.
Thanks to Tory psychosis about Europe, we're now heading full steam towards a hard left Labour government and no EU free market and competition rules to restrain them.
So thanks for that.
It was the public who voted for it, and 52% of the voting electorate are not tories. Tories didn't create that 52%, they're just the biggest bunch in it.
The Tories mis-framed the referendum, failed to plan for a Leave vote, pissed about for 2 years arguing amongst themselves and have made an absolute horlicks of negotiating our exit.
I don't think you'll find the electorate blaming themselves!
Never said they would. The Tories are in office, and have handled it badly due to party infighting, so will pay the price. But they didn't start it.
That's precisely what they did do!
No they didn't. They didn't create the public desire to leave that built and built to the point they felt they needed to give us a choice. The main party wanted us to make a different choice, but people from across the spectrum said otherwise.
To pretend the tories created the Brexit push is to give them too much influence. They opened a door, but they didn't make it and we chose, against advice, to walk through. While the Gov will of course be blamed for bad implementation, the public chose Brexit, not the tories.
A fair proportion of the public chose PPI - whose fault was that?
I don't know, it's a stupid comparison.
I'm not saying the tories, as government, don't deserve to take the hit for handling this all badly. But to pretend they created the whole situation ascribes more power and control to them than they have, and is just pretending there's a sole villain. They rid a wave that existed, and will now be drowned by it.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
Starmer says there was no mention of Northern Ireland in Raab’s statement. He says that is a gaping hole.
He says Raab is now threatening to withdrawal payments from the EU. But Philip Hammond, the chancellor, said that was not a credible position. The UK was a country that pays its debts, Hammond said.
Starmer asks which position is the goverment’s - Raab’s or Hammond’s?
- The Guardian
On point, I don't think the EU side ever committed that there would be a FTA after the UK leaves. It is Britain which always assumed that there will be one.
Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.
Most of them voted to trigger it, it hasn't prevented plenty who did, tory and labour, from being called remainers still.
Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.
.
And why, this time, woukd people think differently? Because of a speech? The tories will advertise Corbyn is no Remainer as well?
I should think most remainers aren't going anywhere. Better Brexit under Corbyn than may I woukd think.
They might think, 'better a Brexit under a Corbyn government constrained by the Liberal Democrats.'
Which would be disastrous for Labour. A few hundred votes vanishing in the wrong seats would see the Conservatives regain a majority.
Except an early GE probably means either the Tories are split, or more likely simply in chaotic free fall. Corbyn has a much easier time of it then.
Well, they are split. So are Labour. So are the SNP. The only major party in Parliament that isn't in a complete muddle are the Greens, and they're so off the wall nobody would be able to tell if they were. But there is no sign of the government collapsing at this stage although May will surely not make it much past Christmas.
That's why I think this clarification is made on the assumption there will not be an election. If there is, he's given a hostage to fortune now.
When did the SNP split , big news?????? Not apparent up here at all , hav eyou been down the pub.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
Presumably all those "Freedom Day" parties pencilled in for 29/3/19 will have to be postponed until 31/12/20 when we might actually possibly perhaps be free.
On any "new party" 2/3 of those who signed up to the SDP in its first week had never been in ANY political party. It's not just about "defectors" it's about energising new activists and members to come into politics which must be a positive thing.
Interesting responses to Corbyn's speech - I'm a little unclear whether he is opposed to UK manufacturing jobs being carried out by foreign labour in the UK or manufacturing jobs going to cheaper foreign factories. It's the old argument of quality over cost.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
It's Toby Young, though. A *world class* knob head.
Like us, he's spent a signifant proportion of his life trolling on the internet. Unlike us, though, he demanded to be taken seriously. That's where he went wrong.
I personally know Toby Young pretty well. He was a boorish if sometimes amusing drunk in his 20s, and a laddish but sometimes eloquent loafer in his 30s, in others words, quite like me, or you? We've all done and said stupid shit.
Since then I have met him and corresponded with him quite a few times, and (you can believe me or not) he has sincerely transformed into a thoughtful, hardworking, imaginative, and determined reformer on all kinds of educational matters. He's had success and failure, but he really means it, and he REALLY knows what he's talking about on lots of this stuff.
He personally gave me very good and kind advice when I had a painful, difficult family/educational decision to make. He took time to help me.
He's a nice guy, now. And very smart. He'd have been a good diverse voice on that board.
Instead, his talents are thrown aside and his reputation trashed because of some stupid tweets and the mere fact he's rightwing. It's ridiculous and sad. And it's now happening to the left as well:
I have qualified sympathy for him (qualified, as he clearly was a complete knob some time ago, and also since I don't know enough about him to make an informed comment/judgment on his current problems).
If people can't be allowed and/or expected to change, it would be to the huge detriment of society.
On the other hand, some people are just knobs who like to be controversial, and secretly enjoy when people argue with them. They pretend to change, but will say anything that gets them talked about. They enjoy this sort of attention, and in the meantime they stir discord and even hatred.
But it doesn't matter, because they've got attention.
Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.
Most of them voted to trigger it, it hasn't prevented plenty who did, tory and labour, from being called remainers still.
Well, yes, but I just find the idea weird that there are Remain voters out there who would be sanguine about him voting to formally start Brexit negotiations, yet would be horribly offended by his comparatively minor Brexit proposals today.
It's almost as if the public isn't as obsessed by Brexit as the political commentariat is.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
It's Toby Young, though. A *world class* knob head.
Like us, he's spent a signifant proportion of his life trolling on the internet. Unlike us, though, he demanded to be taken seriously. That's where he went wrong.
I personally know Toby Young pretty well. He was a boorish if sometimes amusing drunk in his 20s, and a laddish but sometimes eloquent loafer in his 30s, in others words, quite like me, or you? We've all done and said stupid shit.
Since then I have met him and corresponded with him quite a few times, and (you can believe me or not) he has sincerely transformed into a thoughtful, hardworking, imaginative, and determined reformer on all kinds of educational matters. He's had success and failure, but he really means it, and he REALLY knows what he's talking about on lots of this stuff.
He personally gave me very good and kind advice when I had a painful, difficult family/educational decision to make. He took time to help me.
He's a nice guy, now. And very smart. He'd have been a good diverse voice on that board.
Instead, his talents are thrown aside and his reputation trashed because of some stupid tweets and the mere fact he's rightwing. It's ridiculous and sad. And it's now happening to the left as well:
I have qualified sympathy for him (qualified, as he clearly was a complete knob some time ago, and also since I don't know enough about him to make an informed comment/judgment on his current problems).
If people can't be allowed and/or expected to change, it would be to the huge detriment of society.
On the other hand, some people are just knobs who like to be controversial, and secretly enjoy when people argue with them. They pretend to change, but will say anything that gets them talked about. They enjoy this sort of attention, and in the meantime they stir discord and even hatred.
But it doesn't matter, because they've got attention.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
It's Toby Young, though. A *world class* knob head.
Like us, he's spent a signifant proportion of his life trolling on the internet. Unlike us, though, he demanded to be taken seriously. That's where he went wrong.
I personally know Toby Young pretty well. He was a boorish if sometimes amusing drunk in his 20s, and a laddish but sometimes eloquent loafer in his 30s, in others words, quite like me, or you? We've all done and said stupid shit.
Since then I have met him and corresponded with him quite a few times, and (you can believe me or not) he has sincerely transformed into a thoughtful, hardworking, imaginative, and determined reformer on all kinds of educational matters. He's had success and failure, but he really means it, and he REALLY knows what he's talking about on lots of this stuff.
He personally gave me very good and kind advice when I had a painful, difficult family/educational decision to make. He took time to help me.
He's a nice guy, now. And very smart. He'd have been a good diverse voice on that board.
Instead, his talents are thrown aside and his reputation trashed because of some stupid tweets and the mere fact he's rightwing. It's ridiculous and sad. And it's now happening to the left as well:
I have qualified sympathy for him (qualified, as he clearly was a complete knob some time ago, and also since I don't know enough about him to make an informed comment/judgment on his current problems).
If people can't be allowed and/or expected to change, it would be to the huge detriment of society.
On the other hand, some people are just knobs who like to be controversial, and secretly enjoy when people argue with them. They pretend to change, but will say anything that gets them talked about. They enjoy this sort of attention, and in the meantime they stir discord and even hatred....
There is always another hand - but if not in full possession of the facts, I favour the biblical injunction 'judge not, lest ye be judged'.
Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.
.
And why, this time, woukd people think differently? Because of a speech? The tories will advertise Corbyn is no Remainer as well?
I should think most remainers aren't going anywhere. Better Brexit under Corbyn than may I woukd think.
They might think, 'better a Brexit under a Corbyn government constrained by the Liberal Democrats.'
Which would be disastrous for Labour. A few hundred votes vanishing in the wrong seats would see the Conservatives regain a majority.
Except an early GE probably means either the Tories are split, or more likely simply in chaotic free fall. Corbyn has a much easier time of it then.
Well, they are split. So are Labour. So are the SNP. The only major party in Parliament that isn't in a complete muddle are the Greens, and they're so off the wall nobody would be able to tell if they were. But there is no sign of the government collapsing at this stage although May will surely not make it much past Christmas.
That's why I think this clarification is made on the assumption there will not be an election. If there is, he's given a hostage to fortune now.
When did the SNP split , big news?????? Not apparent up here at all , hav eyou been down the pub.
Sadly, not yet, although I am hoping to ferment the turnips you have obligingly thrown at me to make a potent wine so the world looks sane again.
I think you will find the SNP also have many positions on Brexit - as I recall Sillars is a sceptic - and there is some evidence hat their voters have many views as well:
Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.
It's because a lot of Labour Remainers have been self-deceiving themselves that Corbyn is "secretly" one of their own. They say to each other "he's playing the long game". Or "he really wants us to stay but wants to bring down this Tory Brexit government first", etc etc
Now Corbyn has ripped away the last reasons to believe any of this bollocks.
Will it hurt him? Dunno.
I STILL don't think he could win a GE, in the end he is too extreme, but in these weird times..
I must work.
Frankly, a lot of Labour supporters are in massive self-deceive mode about Corbyn and his crew.
“It is difficult to speak adequately or justly of London. It is not a pleasant place; it is not agreeable, or cheerful, or easy, or exempt from reproach. It is only magnificent. You can draw up a tremendous list of reasons why it should be insupportable. The fogs, the smoke, the dirt, the darkness, the wet, the distances, the ugliness, the brutal size of the place, the horrible numerosity of society, the manner in which this senseless bigness is fatal to amenity, to convenience, to conversation, to good manners – all this and much more you may expatiate upon. You may call it dreary, heavy, stupid, dull, inhuman, vulgar at heart and tiresome in form. [...] But these are occasional moods; and for one who takes it as I take it, London is on the whole the most possible form of life. [...] It is the biggest aggregation of human life – the most complete compendium of the world.”
Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.
Most of them voted to trigger it, it hasn't prevented plenty who did, tory and labour, from being called remainers still.
Well, yes, but I just find the idea weird that there are Remain voters out there who would be sanguine about him voting to formally start Brexit negotiations, yet would be horribly offended by his comparatively minor Brexit proposals today.
It's almost as if the public isn't as obsessed by Brexit as the political commentariat is.
I think that your average Remain supporter in 2017 could see that the Lib Dems were still in a coma following their traumatic experience of Coalition, and that a Leave supporting Corbyn was the only means by which they could prevent Theresa May from winning a landslide majority to "crush the saboteurs".
A 10% swing from Labour to the Lib Dems on 2017 (using Electoral Calculus) would give the Tories a majority of 72 (not quite a landslide, but more than handy) and the true EU believer Lib Dems the grand total of 20 seats.
EDIT: My point being that it's conceivable that many Remain voters supported Corbyn in 2017 only for a fairly narrow purpose, and if that purpose is no longer relevant, then their support also ceases.
Sadly, not yet, although I am hoping to ferment the turnips you have obligingly thrown at me to make a potent wine so the world looks sane again.
I think you will find the SNP also have many positions on Brexit - as I recall Sillars is a sceptic - and there is some evidence hat their voters have many views as well:
Their splits are of course much less serious and less public than those in the Tories or even Labour. But they're there all right.
Sillars hasn't stood for elected office for 26 years and it's unclear whether he's even a member of the SNP nowadays. In other news, Pete Best may have opinions on The Beatles' oeuvre.
Corbyn said "The next Labour government will bring contracts back in-house, ending the racket of outsourcing that has turned our public services into a cash cow for the few. And we will use the huge weight of the government’s purchasing power to support our workers and industries."
Maybe he should have words with Gordon Brown. PFI, etc.....
Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.
It's because a lot of Labour Remainers have been self-deceiving themselves that Corbyn is "secretly" one of their own. They say to each other "he's playing the long game". Or "he really wants us to stay but wants to bring down this Tory Brexit government first", etc etc
Now Corbyn has ripped away the last reasons to believe any of this bollocks.
Will it hurt him? Dunno.
I STILL don't think he could win a GE, in the end he is too extreme, but in these weird times..
I must work.
Frankly, a lot of Labour supporters are in massive self-deceive mode about Corbyn and his crew.
In an FPTP system you choose the least worst option. As long as the Tories are perceived to be more extreme than Labour on Brexit, then most Remainers will stick with Labour because only Labour can beat the Tories.
Any Remainer who ever thought that Corbyn was on their side was not listening very hard.
More like giving total control to Remainer Robbins. Now I know for sure that we'll get a completely crap deal with Chequers watered down even further and not possible to pass through Parliament. Robbins is no more than an EU stooge who will do whatever it takes to keep the UK in the EU.
Wow. Sounds as if Theresa is sending in a Cabinet Office task force to oversee the DExEU. Presumably DD knew it was an embarrassing fiasco and so quit in shame.
Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver camp. Now of course, everyone who's paid attention knows he's been there all his life already. But that doesn't include most voters, who just knew he was less Brexit-oriented than May and voted accordingly.
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.
It's because a lot of Labour Remainers have been self-deceiving themselves that Corbyn is "secretly" one of their own. They say to each other "he's playing the long game". Or "he really wants us to stay but wants to bring down this Tory Brexit government first", etc etc
Now Corbyn has ripped away the last reasons to believe any of this bollocks.
Will it hurt him? Dunno.
I STILL don't think he could win a GE, in the end he is too extreme, but in these weird times..
I must work.
Frankly, a lot of Labour supporters are in massive self-deceive mode about Corbyn and his crew.
In an FPTP system you choose the least worst option. As long as the Tories are perceived to be more extreme than Labour on Brexit, then most Remainers will stick with Labour because only Labour can beat the Tories.
Any Remainer who ever thought that Corbyn was on their side was not listening very hard.
There are also those who whilst preferring to Remain accept Brexit, but prefer the Left Wing Brexit to the Right Wing one. Given a choice of a bonfire of workers and consumer protections, ripping up environmental standards and hostility to human rights, or choosing a Corbynite Brexit, then I am with the latter.
Do we want a Moggite "Bosses Brexit" or Corbynite "Workers Brexit"? I think the latter will go down better in distressed post industrial towns.
For those who can bear to tear themselves away from the Brexit Groundhog Day, there' a nice political scandal across the channel.
macron's bodyguard beat the crap out of a protester and got caught doing it. Macron spun and wibbled to pretend nothing had happened but the denial has now left him looking shifty and back pedalling faster then Chris Froome facing a bag of urine.
She was always a micro-manager and, presumably after seeing Raab jet off determined to make his mark on Brexit, has now reverted to being a micro-manager who will not brook such independence of spirit.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
It's Toby Young, though. A *world class* knob head.
Like us, he's spent a signifant proportion of his life trolling on the internet. Unlike us, though, he demanded to be taken seriously. That's where he went wrong.
I personally know Toby Young pretty well. He was a boorish if sometimes amusing drunk in his 20s, and a laddish but sometimes eloquent loafer in his 30s, in others words, quite like me, or you? We've all done and said stupid shit.
Since then I have met him and corresponded with him quite a few times, and (you can believe me or not) he has sincerely transformed into a thoughtful, hardworking, imaginative, and determined reformer on all kinds of educational matters. He's had success and failure, but he really means it, and he REALLY knows what he's talking about on lots of this stuff.
He personally gave me very good and kind advice when I had a painful, difficult family/educational decision to make. He took time to help me.
He's a nice guy, now. And very smart. He'd have been a good diverse voice on that board.
Instead, his talents are thrown aside and his reputation trashed because of some stupid tweets and the mere fact he's rightwing. It's ridiculous and sad. And it's now happening to the left as well:
I have qualified sympathy for him (qualified, as he clearly was a complete knob some time ago, and also since I don't know enough about him to make an informed comment/judgment on his current problems).
If people can't be allowed and/or expected to change, it would be to the huge detriment of society.
On the other hand, some people are just knobs who like to be controversial, and secretly enjoy when people argue with them. They pretend to change, but will say anything that gets them talked about. They enjoy this sort of attention, and in the meantime they stir discord and even hatred....
There is always another hand - but if not in full possession of the facts, I favour the biblical injunction 'judge not, lest ye be judged'.
Anyway, got things to do.
Oh, indeed. But by the time someone is on their third or fourth semi-apology, and keeps on saying stuff designed to outrage, then perhaps it becomes time to judge.
Wow. Sounds as if Theresa is sending in a Cabinet Office task force to oversee the DExEU. Presumably DD knew it was an embarrassing fiasco and so quit in shame.
Feels like the start of May's backpedalling in preparation so she can sign anything Barnier sticks in front of her nose.
Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
The last election was held within a few weeks of Corbyn LITERALLY VOTING IN PARLIAMENT TO TRIGGER BREXIT. It's not clear to me how him saying he thinks Britain should get first dibs on contracts is going to put him "more firmly in the Leave camp" than that did.
It's because a lot of Labour Remainers have been self-deceiving themselves that Corbyn is "secretly" one of their own. They say to each other "he's playing the long game". Or "he really wants us to stay but wants to bring down this Tory Brexit government first", etc etc
Now Corbyn has ripped away the last reasons to believe any of this bollocks.
Will it hurt him? Dunno.
I STILL don't think he could win a GE, in the end he is too extreme, but in these weird times..
I must work.
Frankly, a lot of Labour supporters are in massive self-deceive mode about Corbyn and his crew.
In an FPTP system you choose the least worst option. As long as the Tories are perceived to be more extreme than Labour on Brexit, then most Remainers will stick with Labour because only Labour can beat the Tories.
Any Remainer who ever thought that Corbyn was on their side was not listening very hard.
There are also those who whilst preferring to Remain accept Brexit, but prefer the Left Wing Brexit to the Right Wing one. Given a choice of a bonfire of workers and consumer protections, ripping up environmental standards and hostility to human rights, or choosing a Corbynite Brexit, then I am with the latter.
Do we want a Moggite "Bosses Brexit" or Corbynite "Workers Brexit"? I think the latter will go down better in distressed post industrial towns.
Both sound like meaningless soundbites . And presumably each would label the others' as something other than you've described.
"In an FPTP system you choose the least worst option. As long as the Tories are perceived to be more extreme than Labour on Brexit, then most Remainers will stick with Labour because only Labour can beat the Tories.
Any Remainer who ever thought that Corbyn was on their side was not listening very hard."
This is very true Mr Observer. In our rather sad and negative system the party that demonstrates it is the least worse option normally does win. However, many will think that while the Tories have trashed their best card (the economy) by allowing their little Englander wing to wag the dog, their trashing of the economy is quite possibly likely to be less worse than a Comrade Corbyn government that offers no prospects of neutering the Brexit monster while simultaneously rogering the economy with a very large red-flagged flagpole
More like giving total control to Remainer Robbins. Now I know for sure that we'll get a completely crap deal with Chequers watered down even further and not possible to pass through Parliament. Robbins is no more than an EU stooge who will do whatever it takes to keep the UK in the EU.
Robbins works for Theresa May. If you don't like what he is doing - the fault lies with Theresa.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
May has politically owned Brexit since her Mansion House speech. Only now is she making sure she is at the head table in negotiations.
This also means there will be less time for No. 10 to spend on other things, including the normal firefighting on issues arising in the general course of events.
Mr. JS, the far left here keep banging on about clamping down on the print media in a way that hasn't been the case since the 17th century.
Mr. Sandpit, in more shrieking censorious news, there's a new bedwetting campaign to get Farage thrown out of LBC by pressurising sponsors.
It's led by Rik, the people's poet, who can see the far right (if the left think Farage is as bad as it gets I suspect they're in for a bloody rude awakening) whether it exists or not, but seems strangely reluctant to criticise the far left sitting on Labour's front bench.
More like giving total control to Remainer Robbins. Now I know for sure that we'll get a completely crap deal with Chequers watered down even further and not possible to pass through Parliament. Robbins is no more than an EU stooge who will do whatever it takes to keep the UK in the EU.
Robbins works for Theresa May. If you don't like what he is doing - the fault lies with Theresa.
I don't disagree with that, it's why I want her gone.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
@MaxPB I think your four Tory MPs increases dramatically depending upon what power the brex-o-loons are able to grab.
A Mogg or even Boris takeover means it's all up for grabs.
The ERG won't even be able to get one of its own to the final round let alone win the members' ballot. They will back whichever candidate is most Leave-y.
Who are your four potential defectors? Heidi Allen, Sarah Wollaston...
Has pushmepullme Jezza Brexit pulled itself a teeny bit too much in one direction?
He must think there will be a general election within months. Well, October - November or February - March.
I would have thought this would cause him serious problems at an election. It puts him firmly in the Leaver
It's reckless politics as he can't really outbid May with Leavers, while even a modest seepage to the Liberal Democrats, Greens and SNP would see him haemorrhage seats, including to the Tories on a split vote.
For that very reason, I would suggest this means it's more likely that he's concluded there isn't going to be an imminent election, possibly not one while he's leader, and he can therefore come off the fence.
Now Corbyn has ripped away the last reasons to believe any of this bollocks.
Will it hurt him? Dunno.
I STILL don't think he could win a GE, in the end he is too extreme, but in these weird times..
I must work.
Frankly, a lot of Labour supporters are in massive self-deceive mode about Corbyn and his crew.
In an FPTP system you choose the least worst option. As long as the Tories are perceived to be more extreme than Labour on Brexit, then most Remainers will stick with Labour because only Labour can beat the Tories.
Any Remainer who ever thought that Corbyn was on their side was not listening very hard.
There are also those who whilst preferring to Remain accept Brexit, but prefer the Left Wing Brexit to the Right Wing one. Given a choice of a bonfire of workers and consumer protections, ripping up environmental standards and hostility to human rights, or choosing a Corbynite Brexit, then I am with the latter.
Do we want a Moggite "Bosses Brexit" or Corbynite "Workers Brexit"? I think the latter will go down better in distressed post industrial towns.
Both sound like meaningless soundbites . And presumably each would label the others' as something other than you've described.
Sure, politicians will sloganise, but the nature of Brexit will be up for grabs. I can see that the Corbyn view could be quite appealing to a lot of former coalfield Britain.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
Quite. Young called people "functionally illiterate troglodytes with a mental age of six", "small, vaguely deformed undergraduates replete with acne and anoraks", "a bunch of lesbians [who] looked like German shot-putters", etc. etc.
This wasn't a one-off like Justine Sacco tweeting and then getting in a plane to South Africa, which I fully agree was a lynch-mob mentality. This is a guy whose shtick for many years has been "professional contrarian", like a slightly more eloquent Brendan O'Neill. Unfortunately for him, those who live by the sword die by the sword.
Sure, politicians will sloganise, but the nature of Brexit will be up for grabs. I can see that the Corbyn view could be quite appealing to a lot of former coalfield Britain.
How does the Corbyn view of Brexit differ from Chequers?
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
I almost felt sad for him, but then I thought "right wing journo complains of being misquoted, quoted out of context and metaphorically lynched ...... hmmm!"
@MaxPB I think your four Tory MPs increases dramatically depending upon what power the brex-o-loons are able to grab.
A Mogg or even Boris takeover means it's all up for grabs.
The ERG won't even be able to get one of its own to the final round let alone win the members' ballot. They will back whichever candidate is most Leave-y.
Who are your four potential defectors? Heidi Allen, Sarah Wollaston...
Soubry, Heidi Allen, Neill and possibly Stephen Hammmond. The latter two are in London and would struggle to keep their majorities under a Tory banner so may jump ship and see if they can do it on a pro-remain ticket. The other two have been sent loopy by Brexit.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
I almost felt sad for him, but then I thought "right wing journo complains of being misquoted, quoted out of context and metaphorically lynched ...... hmmm!"
Nothing to do with misquoted or out of context...the tweets are there for everyone to see. And I don't mean the eugenics thing, that seemed fine as he describes it. I mean the insulting misogynist tweets and comments.
Somewhere, who knows how deep in his mind, those sentiments persist.
I am shocked that Corbyn wants to undo one of Mrs Thatcher’s finest achievements.
I am sure it is nothing to do with the single market rules would stop some of Corbyn’s hard left economic policies.
The fact the ERG and other Tories are cheering him along should give all Tory leavers pause for thought, alas their Europhobia is just too strong.
Absolutely, Mr Eagles. Those Tory patriots from the ERG that wish to trash Mrs T's finest legacy and give support and succour to the foreign policy agenda of Vladimir Putin. Her handbag must be rotating in her grave faster than god's particle in a CERN accelerator
Sure, politicians will sloganise, but the nature of Brexit will be up for grabs. I can see that the Corbyn view could be quite appealing to a lot of former coalfield Britain.
How does the Corbyn view of Brexit differ from Chequers?
Not a lot, but the difference lies in how he would exercise those powers.
Thanks to Tory psychosis about Europe, we're now heading full steam towards a hard left Labour government and no EU free market and competition rules to restrain them.
So thanks for that.
It was the public who voted for it, and 52% of the voting electorate are not tories. Tories didn't create that 52%, they're just the biggest bunch in it.
The Tories mis-framed the referendum, failed to plan for a Leave vote, pissed about for 2 years arguing amongst themselves and have made an absolute horlicks of negotiating our exit.
I don't think you'll find the electorate blaming themselves!
And the Tory Gvt made the mistake of allowing UKIP and their activists pressure them into lodging the A50 notice before agreeing our plan and without taking the opportunity to have some informal discussions with other EU governments. Triggering A50 reduced our leverage and gave up valuable time in which we could have started to get our act together.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
Sure, politicians will sloganise, but the nature of Brexit will be up for grabs. I can see that the Corbyn view could be quite appealing to a lot of former coalfield Britain.
How does the Corbyn view of Brexit differ from Chequers?
Not a lot, but the difference lies in how he would exercise those powers.
In a referendum between Chequers and Remain, what would Corbyn do?
I’d call them the naughty c word but they have neither the depth nor the warmth.
It's actually sensible politics from Raab. If Brexit does lead to food shortages, then it's better for us to be queuing up to collect our tins from the town hall than actually starving. The latter would see rioting, looting, burglary and all sorts.
I am shocked that Corbyn wants to undo one of Mrs Thatcher’s finest achievements.
I am sure it is nothing to do with the single market rules would stop some of Corbyn’s hard left economic policies.
The fact the ERG and other Tories are cheering him along should give all Tory leavers pause for thought, alas their Europhobia is just too strong.
Oddly enough, as others have said, Corbyn's vision of a "Workers' Brexit" will have plenty of followers and sounds superficially attractive. It speaks directly to a constituency which May has tried to charm since 2016 - the "working man".
If you voted LEAVE to try to slow or halt globalisation, Corbyn is talking to you.
Sure, politicians will sloganise, but the nature of Brexit will be up for grabs. I can see that the Corbyn view could be quite appealing to a lot of former coalfield Britain.
How does the Corbyn view of Brexit differ from Chequers?
Not a lot, but the difference lies in how he would exercise those powers.
In a referendum between Chequers and Remain, what would Corbyn do?
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
Quite. Young called people "functionally illiterate troglodytes with a mental age of six", "small, vaguely deformed undergraduates replete with acne and anoraks", "a bunch of lesbians [who] looked like German shot-putters", etc. etc.
This wasn't a one-off like Justine Sacco tweeting and then getting in a plane to South Africa, which I fully agree was a lynch-mob mentality. This is a guy whose shtick for many years has been "professional contrarian", like a slightly more eloquent Brendan O'Neill. Unfortunately for him, those who live by the sword die by the sword.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
wuss
I'm only thinking of your well-being, Alan, as I know what a sensitive soul you are.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
A few dodgy Tweets from years ago is insignificant, when compared to his more recent several years’ experience running schools and an educational charity.
Sure, politicians will sloganise, but the nature of Brexit will be up for grabs. I can see that the Corbyn view could be quite appealing to a lot of former coalfield Britain.
How does the Corbyn view of Brexit differ from Chequers?
Not a lot, but the difference lies in how he would exercise those powers.
In a referendum between Chequers and Remain, what would Corbyn do?
I’d call them the naughty c word but they have neither the depth nor the warmth.
It's actually sensible politics from Raab. If Brexit does lead to food shortages, then it's better for us to be queuing up to collect our tins from the town hall than actually starving. The latter would see rioting, looting, burglary and all sorts.
The drought is more likely to lead to food shortages than any form of Brexit.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
wuss
I'm only thinking of your well-being, Alan, as I know what a sensitive soul you are.
Ever since England lost religion weve gone from God botherers to just plain botherers
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
A few dodgy Tweets from years ago is insignificant, when compared to his more recent several years’ experience running schools and an educational charity.
He spends a lot of time in that article defending himself against charges of his choosing. He was considered unsuitable principally because of his crude sexist and racist comments, to which his only defence appears to be that he was drunk. Drink loosens inhibitions and may have prompted him to reveal his real attitudes, which isn't much of a defence.
I’d call them the naughty c word but they have neither the depth nor the warmth.
It's actually sensible politics from Raab. If Brexit does lead to food shortages, then it's better for us to be queuing up to collect our tins from the town hall than actually starving. The latter would see rioting, looting, burglary and all sorts.
I think that what will happen is that Conservative Party members, UKIP members, anti-EU Labour party members like Jeremy Corbyn, members of various anti-EU organisations will all have special lavishly-stocked shops, which are reserved for them. People who can prove they voted Leave will be given ration books, whereas Remain voters will have to fend for themselves.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
Quite. Young called people "functionally illiterate troglodytes with a mental age of six", "small, vaguely deformed undergraduates replete with acne and anoraks", "a bunch of lesbians [who] looked like German shot-putters", etc. etc.ñ
This wasn't a one-off like Justine Sacco tweeting and then getting in a plane to South Africa, which I fully agree was a lynch-mob mentality. This is a guy whose shtick for many years has been "professional contrarian", like a slightly more eloquent Brendan O'Neill. Unfortunately for him, those who live by the sword die by the sword.
He deserves every bit he has got.
Hes right about this being mccarthyism. People should be able to say what they want. They should be able to apologise for things they said in the past. The alt liberal/left tyranny is worse than the right wing tyranny, which is pretty benign by comparison.
Incidentally, this is a rather fine and shocking piece by Toby Young (an old acquaintance of mine).
I was aware that he was forced to step down from the QAUNGO role, because of the monstering he got on Twitter and elsewhere.
I was unaware that as a consequence he lost ALL his positions, and his entire career was ruined, overnight. Just astonishing. And sobering. Whether you are on the left OR the right, these lynchings are horrible. They need to STOP.
That’s a very sad, but wonderfully well written and eloquent piece.
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
It is a lynch mob, but looking at that DM front page and some of the tweets, and as Young himself accepts, I am not 100% sure I would want someone who is capable of making some of those comments in a position of influence in education.
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
A few dodgy Tweets from years ago is insignificant, when compared to his more recent several years’ experience running schools and an educational charity.
He spends a lot of time in that article defending himself against charges of his choosing. He was considered unsuitable principally because of his crude sexist and racist comments, to which his only defence appears to be that he was drunk. Drink loosens inhibitions and may have prompted him to reveal his real attitudes, which isn't much of a defence.
on that basis most of our politicians past and present should be sectioned. apparently we must live in a society free from human flaws.
Sure, politicians will sloganise, but the nature of Brexit will be up for grabs. I can see that the Corbyn view could be quite appealing to a lot of former coalfield Britain.
How does the Corbyn view of Brexit differ from Chequers?
Not a lot, but the difference lies in how he would exercise those powers.
In a referendum between Chequers and Remain, what would Corbyn do?
Prevent that option before it came about?
He wouldn't permit something as bourgeois as a referendum. he would set up a People's Commissariat for Brexit that would interpret "will of the people" in a different but no more or no-less honest way than that is currently being extrapolated by the ERG
I’d call them the naughty c word but they have neither the depth nor the warmth.
It's actually sensible politics from Raab. If Brexit does lead to food shortages, then it's better for us to be queuing up to collect our tins from the town hall than actually starving. The latter would see rioting, looting, burglary and all sorts.
He has also placed on standby at 30mins notice to move a fleet of C-130 Hercs to bring us strawberries direct from the fields of Spain straight to the Tescos on Bourne High Street.
I’d call them the naughty c word but they have neither the depth nor the warmth.
It's actually sensible politics from Raab. If Brexit does lead to food shortages, then it's better for us to be queuing up to collect our tins from the town hall than actually starving. The latter would see rioting, looting, burglary and all sorts.
He has also placed on standby at 30mins notice to move a fleet of C-130 Hercs to bring us strawberries direct from the fields of Spain straight to the Tescos on Bourne High Street.
With @another_richard acting as our man from Del Monte to check they meet the standards of our native crop.
Comments
Personally, I don't think saying stupid, offensive things should see someone be an outcast forevermore. And you can only apologise so much. Woukd need to consider case by case.
If people can't be allowed and/or expected to change, it would be to the huge detriment of society.
I'm not saying the tories, as government, don't deserve to take the hit for handling this all badly. But to pretend they created the whole situation ascribes more power and control to them than they have, and is just pretending there's a sole villain. They rid a wave that existed, and will now be drowned by it.
He says Raab is now threatening to withdrawal payments from the EU. But Philip Hammond, the chancellor, said that was not a credible position. The UK was a country that pays its debts, Hammond said.
Starmer asks which position is the goverment’s - Raab’s or Hammond’s?
- The Guardian
On point, I don't think the EU side ever committed that there would be a FTA after the UK leaves. It is Britain which always assumed that there will be one.
Presumably all those "Freedom Day" parties pencilled in for 29/3/19 will have to be postponed until 31/12/20 when we might actually possibly perhaps be free.
On any "new party" 2/3 of those who signed up to the SDP in its first week had never been in ANY political party. It's not just about "defectors" it's about energising new activists and members to come into politics which must be a positive thing.
Interesting responses to Corbyn's speech - I'm a little unclear whether he is opposed to UK manufacturing jobs being carried out by foreign labour in the UK or manufacturing jobs going to cheaper foreign factories. It's the old argument of quality over cost.
But it doesn't matter, because they've got attention.
It's almost as if the public isn't as obsessed by Brexit as the political commentariat is.
Anyway, got things to do.
I think you will find the SNP also have many positions on Brexit - as I recall Sillars is a sceptic - and there is some evidence hat their voters have many views as well:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/06/07/brexit-has-created-new-divide-snp-study-finds-ahead-party-conference/
Their splits are of course much less serious and less public than those in the Tories or even Labour. But they're there all right.
Henry James on London. Still true today IMO:
“It is difficult to speak adequately or justly of London. It is not a pleasant place; it is not agreeable, or cheerful, or easy, or exempt from reproach. It is only magnificent. You can draw up a tremendous list of reasons why it should be insupportable. The fogs, the smoke, the dirt, the darkness, the wet, the distances, the ugliness, the brutal size of the place, the horrible numerosity of society, the manner in which this senseless bigness is fatal to amenity, to convenience, to conversation, to good manners – all this and much more you may expatiate upon. You may call it dreary, heavy, stupid, dull, inhuman, vulgar at heart and tiresome in form. [...] But these are occasional moods; and for one who takes it as I take it, London is on the whole the most possible form of life. [...] It is the biggest aggregation of human life – the most complete compendium of the world.”
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/709535-it-is-difficult-to-speak-adequately-or-justly-of-london
A 10% swing from Labour to the Lib Dems on 2017 (using Electoral Calculus) would give the Tories a majority of 72 (not quite a landslide, but more than handy) and the true EU believer Lib Dems the grand total of 20 seats.
EDIT: My point being that it's conceivable that many Remain voters supported Corbyn in 2017 only for a fairly narrow purpose, and if that purpose is no longer relevant, then their support also ceases.
Corbyn said "The next Labour government will bring contracts back in-house, ending the racket of outsourcing that has turned our public services into a cash cow for the few. And we will use the huge weight of the government’s purchasing power to support our workers and industries."
Maybe he should have words with Gordon Brown. PFI, etc.....
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/url-jeremy-corbyn-brexit-economic-labour-party-cheap-labour-migrants-eu-a8460696.html
Any Remainer who ever thought that Corbyn was on their side was not listening very hard.
I dislike this damned humidity.
Do we want a Moggite "Bosses Brexit" or Corbynite "Workers Brexit"? I think the latter will go down better in distressed post industrial towns.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dominic-raab-tory-housing-minister-facebook-group-workhouses-council-housing-a8213846.html
macron's bodyguard beat the crap out of a protester and got caught doing it. Macron spun and wibbled to pretend nothing had happened but the denial has now left him looking shifty and back pedalling faster then Chris Froome facing a bag of urine.
The August recess cant come quickly enough.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-scan/2018/07/24/25001-20180724ARTFIG00138-affaire-benalla-lr-va-deposer-une-motion-de-censure.php
I remember hearing the first part of that, but not the rest.
She was always a micro-manager and, presumably after seeing Raab jet off determined to make his mark on Brexit, has now reverted to being a micro-manager who will not brook such independence of spirit.
There is a world outside Brexit :-)
Illiberal regimes are clamping down on independent media across the world"
https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/07/23/the-global-slump-in-press-freedom
"In an FPTP system you choose the least worst option. As long as the Tories are perceived to be more extreme than Labour on Brexit, then most Remainers will stick with Labour because only Labour can beat the Tories.
Any Remainer who ever thought that Corbyn was on their side was not listening very hard."
This is very true Mr Observer. In our rather sad and negative system the party that demonstrates it is the least worse option normally does win. However, many will think that while the Tories have trashed their best card (the economy) by allowing their little Englander wing to wag the dog, their trashing of the economy is quite possibly likely to be less worse than a Comrade Corbyn government that offers no prospects of neutering the Brexit monster while simultaneously rogering the economy with a very large red-flagged flagpole
If you don't like what he is doing - the fault lies with Theresa.
Hopefully the febrile online lynch mob will be tamed eventually, but it’s hard to see how it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. The question is what will it take for them to deflect their attention towards actual abusers, and away from satirical and self-deprecating writers?
This also means there will be less time for No. 10 to spend on other things, including the normal firefighting on issues arising in the general course of events.
This increases the risk of things going wrong...
Mr. Sandpit, in more shrieking censorious news, there's a new bedwetting campaign to get Farage thrown out of LBC by pressurising sponsors.
It's led by Rik, the people's poet, who can see the far right (if the left think Farage is as bad as it gets I suspect they're in for a bloody rude awakening) whether it exists or not, but seems strangely reluctant to criticise the far left sitting on Labour's front bench.
https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1021712016002740225
Downgrade his salary accordingly.
At the weekend he admitted he had no eye for detail. Like a lot of Brexiteers he’s good at the fantasy of Brexit not the reality of Brexit.
https://twitter.com/los_fisher/status/1020947108365467648?s=21
That said Theresa micro managing always turns out well.
I’d call them the naughty c word but they have neither the depth nor the warmth.
I would repeat some of those tweets by way of illustration but I simply cannot as they are too offensive even to repeat to make a point.
I am sure it is nothing to do with the single market rules would stop some of Corbyn’s hard left economic policies.
The fact the ERG and other Tories are cheering him along should give all Tory leavers pause for thought, alas their Europhobia is just too strong.
This wasn't a one-off like Justine Sacco tweeting and then getting in a plane to South Africa, which I fully agree was a lynch-mob mentality. This is a guy whose shtick for many years has been "professional contrarian", like a slightly more eloquent Brendan O'Neill. Unfortunately for him, those who live by the sword die by the sword.
Somewhere, who knows how deep in his mind, those sentiments persist.
If you voted LEAVE to try to slow or halt globalisation, Corbyn is talking to you.
Ever since England lost religion weve gone from God botherers to just plain botherers
Berlusconi for PM
The alt liberal/left tyranny is worse than the right wing tyranny, which is pretty benign by comparison.
A Remainer is in sole charge of Brexit. What could possibly go wrong?