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What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.ralphmalph said:
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year.another_richard said:
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?Pulpstar said:How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.0 -
So why are the farmers growing more than they can harvest or why are they taking on contracts which they can't fulfill or why are they accepting prices which they can't produce at ?OchEye said:
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.another_richard said:
So why don't they recruit more workers ?Scott_P said:
From the Times todayanother_richard said:Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:
Aberdeenshire
Fife
Nottinghamshire
Staffordshire
Norfolk
Herefordshire
Norfolk
Surrey
West Sussex
Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl0 -
If you do finance or tech in the public sector or for a charity or for a SME maybe but it is London where most of the high paid finance and tech jobs areanother_richard said:
I suspect there might be a few London finance and tech workers wondering where their £100k job is.HYUFD said:
I am sure people in finance and tech could afford to live there, the average salary in the City and for the likes of Google, Apple and Facebook is close to £100 000 a year.another_richard said:Can anyone guess which region of the UK has the highest unemployment rate ?
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/regionallabourmarket/july2018#summary-of-latest-regional-labour-market-statistics
So why when London housing is such a scarce and expensive resource is taxpayers money being used to pay people to stay there to do nothing when people who would add value in finance, tech, culture etc cannot afford to live there ?
People in culture and other areas of the economy maybe not0 -
Fantastic! Let them compete on a level playing field like Kiwi farmers do and cut food costs for everyone else.surby said:
Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.OchEye said:
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.another_richard said:
So why don't they recruit more workers ?Scott_P said:
From the Times todayanother_richard said:Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:
Aberdeenshire
Fife
Nottinghamshire
Staffordshire
Norfolk
Herefordshire
Norfolk
Surrey
West Sussex
Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl
Win, win.0 -
I'm a fanatic.rcs1000 said:
Anybody who doesn't realise that we are both to blame for this mess is a fanatic.Cyclefree said:
I agree we have been inept and arrogant. But they do have a duty to consider the future relationship under Article 50.surby said:
Right from the word go we have taken a very adversarial attitude. Using phrases like, "the EU is trying to punish us". This was just after Art.50 was triggered.Cyclefree said:
Reads to me as if they’re pointing out the realities: a hard border means that Ireland has the responsibilities to maintain the SM’s integrity. They don’t appear to have Ireland’s back.ralphmalph said:Seeing as we seem to be back to the EU.
https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20180721/281509341971841
Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.
So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?
But note they also say that Britain will be in a less favourable position than Russia vis a vis trade with the EU.
Now this may all be legally correct. And it may very largely be the result of Britain’s inept and arrogant handling of Brexit.
But the EU really ought to ask itself whether it makes sense to humiliate a former member, the world’s 5th (for now) largest economy, member of the Security Council etc. Humiliating countries, however much they may be at fault, does not usually end well. Nor does it reflect well on the EU. And while they may not care now, they may find that this could lead to unforeseen and unpleasant consequences in future.
Britain is not going to disappear. Just as we would be well advised to adopt a more grown up approach to our relationship with the EU, so would the EU be well advised to do the same vis-a-vi Britain.
The only logical sense coming out of this is: we are leaving and it is their duty to make it easy . Oh, by the way, can we cherry pick what we want even if that breaks the four freedoms because - wait a minute - we are so ******* important.
My point is not whether their attitude is right or understandable. It may be both. But whether it is wise.0 -
Thanks to [ German ] sensors, many of these farms are automated. A vast cucumber "factory farm", I visited only has about 30 workers. Mostly working on the packaging side.MattW said:
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.ralphmalph said:
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year.another_richard said:
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?Pulpstar said:How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
Why do you think your cucumbers are of similar sizes ?0 -
Sounds like exploitation.OchEye said:
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.another_richard said:
So why don't they recruit more workers ?Scott_P said:
From the Times todayanother_richard said:Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:
Aberdeenshire
Fife
Nottinghamshire
Staffordshire
Norfolk
Herefordshire
Norfolk
Surrey
West Sussex
Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl0 -
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I thinkgrabcocque said:
What we're witnessing is the immovable object meeting the irresistible force.HYUFD said:
It is the LDs and the likes of Umunna and Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
The immovable object is Politicians' desire to want to tell people what they want to hear.
The irresistible force is the contradictory, irreconcilable and outright impossible instructions politicians believe the UK electorate has given them.
Something is going to have to give, I wish I knew what.0 -
Isn’t that what NZ does? And they don’t even have argicultural subsidies.Philip_Thompson said:
Fantastic! Let them compete on a level playing field like Kiwi farmers do and cut food costs for everyone else.surby said:
Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.OchEye said:
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.another_richard said:
So why don't they recruit more workers ?Scott_P said:
From the Times todayanother_richard said:Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:
Aberdeenshire
Fife
Nottinghamshire
Staffordshire
Norfolk
Herefordshire
Norfolk
Surrey
West Sussex
Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl
Win, win.0 -
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.HYUFD said:
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
How lovely.0 -
Isn’t that because of EU regs?surby said:
Thanks to [ German ] sensors, many of these farms are automated. A vast cucumber "factory farm", I visited only has about 30 workers. Mostly working on the packaging side.MattW said:
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.ralphmalph said:
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year.another_richard said:
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?Pulpstar said:How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
Why do you think your cucumbers are of similar sizes ?
0 -
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/992163/Brexit-news-Andrea-Leadsom-Chequers-Brexit-plan-customs-bill-White-Paper-leaked-minutes
ANDREA Leadsom declared she “hated” the ‘soft’ Brexit compromise reached at the crunch Chequers summit according to leaked minutes taken at the meeting, despite publicly declaring her support for the deal.0 -
Yes, it’s called collective responsibility.surby said:https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/992163/Brexit-news-Andrea-Leadsom-Chequers-Brexit-plan-customs-bill-White-Paper-leaked-minutes
ANDREA Leadsom declared she “hated” the ‘soft’ Brexit compromise reached at the crunch Chequers summit according to leaked minutes taken at the meeting, despite publicly declaring her support for the deal.0 -
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between themJonathan said:
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.HYUFD said:
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. It was the British people who voted Leave when the Tory leader backed and campaigned for Remain and Corbyn did sod all for Remain in terms of campaigning. It is May who has put forward a Chequers Deal compromise to the EU at the cost of losing Tory Leavers to UKIP and putting Corbyn ahead in the polls. Indeed Corbyn's Brexit plan is virtually identical to May's.surby said:
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.Fenman said:
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcelsGardenwalker said:
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.RobD said:
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.Gardenwalker said:
Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
It is the LDs and the likes of Umunna and Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union0 -
Difference is, May believes it can succeed.HYUFD said:
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
Corbyn wants it to fail.
0 -
Ironically the best way now for the Tories to beat Corbyn is to pursue hard Brexit to win back Tory defectors to UKIP, which only reinforces the point I just madegrabcocque said:
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.HYUFD said:
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
How lovely.0 -
I take Jonathan's point though. Corbyn isn't the Prime Minister. Few voters are going to weigh May's implementation against Labour's in the way you describe. It is a Tory Brexit because we have a Tory government. This doesn't seem particularly controversial.HYUFD said:
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between themJonathan said:
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.HYUFD said:
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. It was the British people who voted Leave when the Tory leader backed and campaigned for Remain and Corbyn did sod all for Remain in terms of campaigning. It is May who has put forward a Chequers Deal compromise to the EU at the cost of losing Tory Leavers to UKIP and putting Corbyn ahead in the polls. Indeed Corbyn's Brexit plan is virtually identical to May's.surby said:
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.Fenman said:
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcelsGardenwalker said:
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.RobD said:
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.Gardenwalker said:
Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
It is the LDs and the likes of Umunna and Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
It's the nature of politics for Labour to claim that they would do it better, and it's a moot point as to whether they actually would or not.0 -
In terms of food standards like length, number of blemishes, curvature they are all set by the WHO or Codex Alimentarius (UN). The EU get a fax put in their added value and fax to the member countries. Food is a global business.RobD said:
Isn’t that because of EU regs?surby said:
Thanks to [ German ] sensors, many of these farms are automated. A vast cucumber "factory farm", I visited only has about 30 workers. Mostly working on the packaging side.MattW said:
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.ralphmalph said:
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year.another_richard said:
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?Pulpstar said:How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
Why do you think your cucumbers are of similar sizes ?0 -
No, ideologically that is what Corbyn believes, he genuinely opposes the single market unlike say Umunna as staying in the single market would block the nationalisation plans he and McDonnell havegrabcocque said:
Difference is, May believes it can succeed.HYUFD said:
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
Corbyn wants it to fail.0 -
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.HYUFD said:
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between themJonathan said:
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.HYUFD said:
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. It was the British people who voted Leave when the Tory leader backed and campaigned for Remain and Corbyn did sod all for Remain in terms of campaigning. It is May who has put forward a Chequers Deal compromise to the EU at the cost of losing Tory Leavers to UKIP and putting Corbyn ahead in the polls. Indeed Corbyn's Brexit plan is virtually identical to May's.surby said:
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.Fenman said:
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcelsGardenwalker said:
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.RobD said:
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.Gardenwalker said:
Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
It is the LDs and the likes of Umunna and Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union0 -
Maybe. But you could not employ vast numbers of people just to pick a cucumber at exactly the correct time. Cameras and sensors do it.RobD said:
Isn’t that because of EU regs?surby said:
Thanks to [ German ] sensors, many of these farms are automated. A vast cucumber "factory farm", I visited only has about 30 workers. Mostly working on the packaging side.MattW said:
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.ralphmalph said:
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year.another_richard said:
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?Pulpstar said:How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
Why do you think your cucumbers are of similar sizes ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiQG4zhMHLM0 -
Most, but not all, of those directives were withdrawn in July '09.RobD said:
Isn’t that because of EU regs?surby said:
Thanks to [ German ] sensors, many of these farms are automated. A vast cucumber "factory farm", I visited only has about 30 workers. Mostly working on the packaging side.MattW said:
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.ralphmalph said:
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year.another_richard said:
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?Pulpstar said:How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
Why do you think your cucumbers are of similar sizes ?0 -
Oppositions will always oppose that does not change the core fact a Corbyn government would be delivering almost exactly the same Brexit as this May governmentJohn_M said:
I take Jonathan's point though. Corbyn isn't the Prime Minister. Few voters are going to weigh May's implementation against Labour's in the way you describe. It is a Tory Brexit because we have a Tory government. This doesn't seem particularly controversial.HYUFD said:
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between themJonathan said:
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.HYUFD said:
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. It was the British people who voted Leave when the Tory leader backed and campaigned for Remain and Corbyn o the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs unionsurby said:
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.Fenman said:
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcelsGardenwalker said:
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.RobD said:
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.Gardenwalker said:
Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
It's the nature of politics for Labour to claim that they would do it better, and it's a moot point as to whether they actually would or not.0 -
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.grabcocque said:
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.HYUFD said:
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
How lovely.0 -
This sounds like a good thing.surby said:
Maybe. But you could not employ vast numbers of people just to pick a cucumber at exactly the correct time. Cameras and sensors do it.RobD said:
Isn’t that because of EU regs?surby said:
Thanks to [ German ] sensors, many of these farms are automated. A vast cucumber "factory farm", I visited only has about 30 workers. Mostly working on the packaging side.MattW said:
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.ralphmalph said:
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year.another_richard said:
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?Pulpstar said:How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
Why do you think your cucumbers are of similar sizes ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiQG4zhMHLM0 -
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.Jonathan said:
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.HYUFD said:
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between themJonathan said:
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.HYUFD said:
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. nd Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs unionsurby said:
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.Fenman said:
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcelsGardenwalker said:
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.RobD said:
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.Gardenwalker said:
Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn0 -
The position of opposition is irrelevant. It didn't help Brown one jot that Cameron matched spending. IDS was more hawkish on Iraq than Blair, does anyone care? Kinnock was closer to the EMF than Major, yet it was the Tories in government that carried responsibility.
It's the same today, whether you, May or anyone else wishes any different.0 -
The hard right are in power?nielh said:
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.grabcocque said:
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.HYUFD said:
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
How lovely.0 -
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.HYUFD said:
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.Jonathan said:
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.HYUFD said:
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between themJonathan said:
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.HYUFD said:
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. nd Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs unionsurby said:
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.Fenman said:
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcelsGardenwalker said:
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.RobD said:
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.Gardenwalker said:
Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn0 -
I appreciate the current negotiating position may not be the final deal - and that there could be no deal.
But if something which approximates to the Chequers agreement did become the final deal what would it mean for a future Corbyn Govt re:
1) Nationalisation - ie would "Common Rule Book" for goods prevent nationalisation / state subsidies?
2) Capital Controls - no hard border would allow you to drive to ROI with car full of cash(!) but not particularly convenient for moving large sums!0 -
The very soft right.RobD said:
The hard right are in power?nielh said:
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.grabcocque said:
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.HYUFD said:
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
How lovely.0 -
Of course we do. We have years as leader and several decades of euroscepticism before that.Jonathan said:
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.HYUFD said:
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.Jonathan said:
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.HYUFD said:
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between themJonathan said:
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.HYUFD said:
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. nd Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs unionsurby said:
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.Fenman said:
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcelsGardenwalker said:
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.RobD said:
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.Gardenwalker said:
Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn0 -
HYUFD - Would you leave the Conservatives if they put Remain back on a ballot in a second referendum?0
-
More critically, it bans state aid. The EU need to realise Chequers is as good as they're going to get from any realistic UK government. However, they are going to overplay their hand again. We will crash out without a deal, which will likely kick off another eurocrisis.MikeL said:I appreciate the current negotiating position may not be the final deal - and that there could be no deal.
But if something which approximates to the Chequers agreement did become the final deal what would it mean for a future Corbyn Govt re:
1) Nationalisation - ie would "Common Rule Book" for goods prevent nationalisation / state subsidies?
2) Capital Controls - no hard border would allow you to drive to ROI with car full of cash(!) but not particularly convenient for moving large sums!0 -
I was talking about the impact on the country for once rather than trying to engage in party political one upmanship between reds and blues which would still end up with the same result whichever of the current party leaderships were to win.Jonathan said:The position of opposition is irrelevant. It didn't help Brown one jot that Cameron matched spending. IDS was more hawkish on Iraq than Blair, does anyone care? Kinnock was closer to the EMF than Major, yet it was the Tories in government that carried responsibility.
It's the same today, whether you, May or anyone else wishes any different.
As I have already made clear I think only hard Brexit can beat Corbyn not May's Brexit even if May's Brexit may be better for the country0 -
Many of us would.williamglenn said:HYUFD - Would you leave the Conservatives if they put Remain back on a ballot in a second referendum?
The lost members would be nothing as to the voters who would desert them though.0 -
The newspaper is bigging up their interviewee. I'd never heard of him so I looked him up. He's deputy chairman of the Advisory Board of the Federal Network Agency for Electricity, Gas, Telecommunications, Post and Railways. He's a key ally in the same sense that I was a key ally of Tony Blair, because I had a minor PPS role.ralphmalph said:Seeing as we seem to be back to the EU.
https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20180721/281509341971841
Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.
So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?0 -
You have a valid point in general, but the EU doesn't think it has any obligation to protect us from the consequences of our own decisions. Particularly when those decisions harm them too In the currently unlikely event that we change our mind, I would hope they give us a graceful way back. But it doesn't have an obligation beyond that. We humiliate ourselves. It has nothing to do with the EU.Cyclefree said:
Reads to me as if they’re pointing out the realities: a hard border means that Ireland has the responsibilities to maintain the SM’s integrity. They don’t appear to have Ireland’s back.ralphmalph said:Seeing as we seem to be back to the EU.
https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20180721/281509341971841
Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.
So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?
But note they also say that Britain will be in a less favourable position than Russia vis a vis trade with the EU.
Now this may all be legally correct. And it may very largely be the result of Britain’s inept and arrogant handling of Brexit.
But the EU really ought to ask itself whether it makes sense to humiliate a former member, the world’s 5th (for now) largest economy, member of the Security Council etc. Humiliating countries, however much they may be at fault, does not usually end well. Nor does it reflect well on the EU. And while they may not care now, they may find that this could lead to unforeseen and unpleasant consequences in future.
Britain is not going to disappear. Just as we would be well advised to adopt a more grown up approach to our relationship with the EU, so would the EU be well advised to do the same vis-a-vi Britain.0 -
Wrong, we have plenty of idea.Jonathan said:
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.HYUFD said:
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.Jonathan said:
A subtle but important point. olicy in government.HYUFD said:
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between themJonathan said:
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.HYUFD said:
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. nd Soubry customs union but not 'the' customs unionsurby said:
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.Fenman said:
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcelsGardenwalker said:
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.RobD said:
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.Gardenwalker said:
Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
Corbyn 'The single market could hold the UK back', a direct quote as he made clear he thought the single market could lead to privatisation of services and prevent the rebalancing of the UK economy he wanted Labour to implement if elected
https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/jeremy-corbyn-single-market-hold-uk-back/0 -
Whilst I bet Strawberries are well within current tech Raspberry-like things will be outside the current automation envelope - or more likely the tech that could accurately and safely pick raspberries would be more profitably employed/developed elsewhere.MattW said:
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.ralphmalph said:
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year.another_richard said:
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?Pulpstar said:How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.0 -
Its the hard right, masquerading as the very soft right, to get brexit through.Sean_F said:
The very soft right.RobD said:
The hard right are in power?nielh said:
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.grabcocque said:
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.HYUFD said:
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
How lovely.0 -
So we get automation on strawberries and divert the handful of remaining pickers to the critical raspberry industry.Alistair said:
Whilst I bet Strawberries are well within current tech Raspberry-like things will be outside the current automation envelope - or more likely the tech that could accurately and safely pick raspberries would be more profitably employed/developed elsewhere.MattW said:
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.ralphmalph said:
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year.another_richard said:
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?Pulpstar said:How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year. 0 -
I hadn't realised the ONS snuck out some excellent gov't borrowing figures yesterday, in a change to their usual publication timetable.
The overall picture was £1.3bn better than a month ago, being a downwards revision of £0.5bn and a June month £0.8bn better than last year.
A strong rest of the year could see borrowing fall under the £30bn.0 -
I think HMG are in surplus when you take out investment spending.TheWhiteRabbit said:I hadn't realised the ONS snuck out some excellent gov't borrowing figures yesterday, in a change to their usual publication timetable.
The overall picture was £1.3bn better than a month ago, being a downwards revision of £0.5bn and a June month £0.8bn better than last year.
A strong rest of the year could see borrowing fall under the £30bn.0 -
San Diego Comic Con is on and the Doctor Who series 11, Star Trek Discovery series 2, Glass, Aquaman, and Shazam trailers are out. Which one will I torment you with first? Ah, so much fun to be had...
[laughs madly, accompanied by thunder...
] 0 -
Thank you.NickPalmer said:
The newspaper is bigging up their interviewee. I'd never heard of him so I looked him up. He's deputy chairman of the Advisory Board of the Federal Network Agency for Electricity, Gas, Telecommunications, Post and Railways. He's a key ally in the same sense that I was a key ally of Tony Blair, because I had a minor PPS role.ralphmalph said:Seeing as we seem to be back to the EU.
https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20180721/281509341971841
Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.
So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?0 -
No, given I voted Remain of course not.williamglenn said:HYUFD - Would you leave the Conservatives if they put Remain back on a ballot in a second referendum?
Though if Leave won again it would be hard Brexit anyway and if Remain won I expect there would be mass defections of Tory Leavers to UKIP to push for a third referendum so it would solve precisely nothing0 -
End of year figures for 2017-18 did indeed show a current account surplusRobD said:
I think HMG are in surplus when you take out investment spending.TheWhiteRabbit said:I hadn't realised the ONS snuck out some excellent gov't borrowing figures yesterday, in a change to their usual publication timetable.
The overall picture was £1.3bn better than a month ago, being a downwards revision of £0.5bn and a June month £0.8bn better than last year.
A strong rest of the year could see borrowing fall under the £30bn.0 -
Well if rejoin is in the context of a car-crash Brexit that has us begging to be readmited, any time after that that we seek any sort of opt-out the answer will be “what are you going to do if we say no, leave?”HYUFD said:
Most likely we would join the single market once immigration has been brought down, I cannot see us supporting rejoining the full EU again or the EU being willing to put up with our demands for opt outs and vetoes which soon enough would continue exactly as beforerpjs said:
The time it takes to admit new members is constrained by how fast they can enact the EU acquis into local law. An immediately rejoining UK would have all of that as we have transposed it all into UK law. The only two parts that would need to be added are Schengen and the Euro. The Euro requires ERM membership, which is not mandatory (Sweden’s method of staying out indefinitely) and Schengen requires the other Schengen states to approve the state of the applicant’s border and internal security (which is why Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania are still not in Schengen). It would be easy for the UK to fudge staying out of both in practice.rkrkrk said:FPT:
I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.
A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.
And I think the EU would be delighted to have us rejoin after a car crash Brexit, pour encourager les autres.0 -
The best way to cook fresh mackerel is to stuff it with basil, onions, red and yellow peppers, baste with oil and garlic and grill under high heat until the skin starts to brown. Turn and do the other side.
The flavour is much, much better than pan frying0 -
Need some help picking my raspberries. Autumn fruiting plants producing in the middle of fecking July. I like raspberries but by November I think I may be a bit sick of them.RobD said:
So we get automation on strawberries and divert the handful of remaining pickers to the critical raspberry industry.Alistair said:
Whilst I bet Strawberries are well within current tech Raspberry-like things will be outside the current automation envelope - or more likely the tech that could accurately and safely pick raspberries would be more profitably employed/developed elsewhere.MattW said:
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.ralphmalph said:
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year.another_richard said:
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?Pulpstar said:How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.0 -
1) No, it's about trade, not ownershipMikeL said:I appreciate the current negotiating position may not be the final deal - and that there could be no deal.
But if something which approximates to the Chequers agreement did become the final deal what would it mean for a future Corbyn Govt re:
1) Nationalisation - ie would "Common Rule Book" for goods prevent nationalisation / state subsidies?
2) Capital Controls - no hard border would allow you to drive to ROI with car full of cash(!) but not particularly convenient for moving large sums!
2) Dunno, but nobody is proposing capital controls so it doesn't matter.0 -
What's hard about it when spending is at record levels, social laws have been liberalised and migration is in the hundreds of thousands?nielh said:
Its the hard right, masquerading as the very soft right, to get brexit through.Sean_F said:
The very soft right.RobD said:
The hard right are in power?nielh said:
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.grabcocque said:
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.HYUFD said:
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
How lovely.0 -
We are not going to be 'begging to be readmitted' and subscribe ever more to EU dictatorship, the Euro and Schengen without even the whisper of complaint on anything for all eternity. I cannot believe even William Glenn would be so stupid as to believe that.rpjs said:
Well if rejoin is in the context of a car-crash Brexit that has us begging to be readmited, any time after that that we seek any sort of opt-out the answer will be “what are you going to do if we say no, leave?”HYUFD said:
Most likely we would join the single market once immigration has been brought down, I cannot see us supporting rejoining the full EU again or the EU being willing to put up with our demands for opt outs and vetoes which soon enough would continue exactly as beforerpjs said:
The time it takes to admit new members is constrained by how fast they can enact the EU acquis into local law. An immediately rejoining UK would have all of that as we have transposed it all into UK law. The only two parts that would need to be added are Schengen and the Euro. The Euro requires ERM membership, which is not mandatory (Sweden’s method of staying out indefinitely) and Schengen requires the other Schengen states to approve the state of the applicant’s border and internal security (which is why Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania are still not in Schengen). It would be easy for the UK to fudge staying out of both in practice.rkrkrk said:FPT:
I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.
A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.
And I think the EU would be delighted to have us rejoin after a car crash Brexit, pour encourager les autres.
What we may do is see someone like Umunna win on a platform to rejoin the single market the election after next if immigration has fallen a bit and the economy is down a bit and voters are willing to put the economy rather than immigration control first as they were not in the referendum.
Though regardless of what happens with the economy and immigration I think the sovereignty motivation for Brexit will remain and prevent us rejoining the full EU even if we rejoin the single market0 -
What superlative would you require to describe how hard right naziism is? Ultra mega extreme hard right?nielh said:
Its the hard right, masquerading as the very soft right, to get brexit through.Sean_F said:
The very soft right.RobD said:
The hard right are in power?nielh said:
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.grabcocque said:
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.HYUFD said:
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
How lovely.0 -
Indeed and even without subsidies they can still export. Funny that.RobD said:
Isn’t that what NZ does? And they don’t even have argicultural subsidies.Philip_Thompson said:
Fantastic! Let them compete on a level playing field like Kiwi farmers do and cut food costs for everyone else.surby said:
Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.OchEye said:
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.another_richard said:
So why don't they recruit more workers ?Scott_P said:
From the Times todayanother_richard said:Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:
Aberdeenshire
Fife
Nottinghamshire
Staffordshire
Norfolk
Herefordshire
Norfolk
Surrey
West Sussex
Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl
Win, win.0 -
Same here, which is a good job as the wood pigeons trashed the summer raspberries.Alistair said:
Need some help picking my raspberries. Autumn fruiting plants producing in the middle of fecking July. I like raspberries but by November I think I may be a bit sick of them.RobD said:
So we get automation on strawberries and divert the handful of remaining pickers to the critical raspberry industry.Alistair said:
Whilst I bet Strawberries are well within current tech Raspberry-like things will be outside the current automation envelope - or more likely the tech that could accurately and safely pick raspberries would be more profitably employed/developed elsewhere.MattW said:
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.ralphmalph said:
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year.another_richard said:
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?Pulpstar said:How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.0 -
Fascism isn't hard right.RobD said:
What superlative would you require to describe how hard right naziism is? Ultra mega extreme hard right?nielh said:
Its the hard right, masquerading as the very soft right, to get brexit through.Sean_F said:
The very soft right.RobD said:
The hard right are in power?nielh said:
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.grabcocque said:
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.HYUFD said:
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
How lovely.0 -
Fair point. Just wanted to point how ridiculous it was to describe the current Tory party as hard right.Philip_Thompson said:
Fascism isn't hard right.RobD said:
What superlative would you require to describe how hard right naziism is? Ultra mega extreme hard right?nielh said:
Its the hard right, masquerading as the very soft right, to get brexit through.Sean_F said:
The very soft right.RobD said:
The hard right are in power?nielh said:
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.grabcocque said:
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.HYUFD said:
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
How lovely.0 -
One man's hard is another's very soft.Sean_F said:
The very soft right.RobD said:
The hard right are in power?nielh said:
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.grabcocque said:
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.HYUFD said:
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
How lovely.0 -
Soft right in office. Hard right in power.0
-
And put Clinton into the White House. It was the GOP vote that Perot split, not the Democratic.HYUFD said:
A Trump v Sanders ticket would be the most polarised since Nixon v McGovern or Johnson v Goldwater, in fact even more so as Nixon and Johnson at least made some nods to the centrist establishment unlike Trump or Sanders. If ever there was a condition for a centrist candidate it would be that.rpjs said:
I doubt there’d be a third-party ticket. Third parties never win nationally in the US. All they can do is nobble one or other of the two main parties.HYUFD said:Hickenlooper may run but he has little chance of getting the nomination with Democratic primary voters looking to pick a left liberal populist to take on Trump like Sanders or Warren after Hillary's defeat in 2016 on a centrist platform.
Though if it does end up Trump v Sanders/Warren I could see Hickenlooper on a centrist third party ticket with Kasich (who could again challenge Trump in the GOP primaries) focused on moderates and independents. That is where his real value lies, not for the Democratic nomination
Don't forget either Perot got 19% as a third party candidate in 1992
Third-party just isn’t a thing here. The two main parties are deeply entrenched, and many states even have legal handicaps against third-parties standing. That bit in the Simpsons when Clinton and Dole are unmasked as Kang and Kodos but deride Homer’s assertion that he’ll vote for a third party with “And waste your vote? It’s a two-party system!” ain’t too far wrong.0 -
We haven't left the single market yet and we don't have a credible plan to leave it.HYUFD said:We are not going to be 'begging to be readmitted' and subscribe ever more to EU dictatorship, the Euro and Schengen without even the whisper of complaint on anything for all eternity. I cannot believe even William Glenn would be so stupid as to believe that.
What we may do is see someone like Umunna win on a platform to rejoin the single market the election after next if immigration has fallen a bit and the economy is down a bit and voters are willing to put the economy rather than immigration control first as they were not in the referendum.
Your obsession with Chuka Umunna is bizarre.0 -
It's not difficult; here's a clue..Jonathan said:
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.HYUFD said:
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.Jonathan said:
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.HYUFD said:
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between themJonathan said:
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.HYUFD said:
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. nd Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs unionsurby said:
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.Fenman said:
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcelsGardenwalker said:
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.RobD said:
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.Gardenwalker said:
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf0 -
If this is your view of the EU, er, how come you voted to Remain ?HYUFD said:
We are not going to be 'begging to be readmitted' and subscribe ever more to EU dictatorship, the Euro and Schengen without even the whisper of complaint on anything for all eternity. I cannot believe even William Glenn would be so stupid as to believe that.rpjs said:
Well if rejoin is in the context of a car-crash Brexit that has us begging to be readmited, any time after that that we seek any sort of opt-out the answer will be “what are you going to do if we say no, leave?”HYUFD said:
Most likely we would join the single market once immigration has been brought down, I cannot see us supporting rejoining the full EU again or the EU being willing to put up with our demands for opt outs and vetoes which soon enough would continue exactly as beforerpjs said:
The time it takes to admit new members is constrained by how fast they can enact the EU acquis into local law. An immediately rejoining UK would have all of that as we have transposed it all into UK law. The only two parts that would need to be added are Schengen and the Euro. The Euro requires ERM membership, which is not mandatory (Sweden’s method of staying out indefinitely) and Schengen requires the other Schengen states to approve the state of the applicant’s border and internal security (which is why Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania are still not in Schengen). It would be easy for the UK to fudge staying out of both in practice.rkrkrk said:FPT:
I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.
A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.
And I think the EU would be delighted to have us rejoin after a car crash Brexit, pour encourager les autres.
What we may do is see someone like Umunna win on a platform to rejoin the single market the election after next if immigration has fallen a bit and the economy is down a bit and voters are willing to put the economy rather than immigration control first as they were not in the referendum.
Though regardless of what happens with the economy and immigration I think the sovereignty motivation for Brexit will remain and prevent us rejoining the full EU even if we rejoin the single market0 -
Not true. Exit polls from 1992 show Perot pulled almost as many voters who would have voted for Clinton in 1992 or stayed at home if Perot had not run as those who would have voted for Bush Snr.rpjs said:
And put Clinton into the White House. It was the GOP vote that Perot split, not the Democratic.HYUFD said:
A Trump v Sanders ticket would be the most polarised since Nixon v McGovern or Johnson v Goldwater, in fact even more so as Nixon and Johnson at least made some nods to the centrist establishment unlike Trump or Sanders. If ever there was a condition for a centrist candidate it would be that.rpjs said:
I doubt there’d be a third-party ticket. Third parties never win nationally in the US. All they can do is nobble one or other of the two main parties.HYUFD said:Hickenlooper may run but he has little chance of getting the nomination with Democratic primary voters looking to pick a left liberal populist to take on Trump like Sanders or Warren after Hillary's defeat in 2016 on a centrist platform.
Though if it does end up Trump v Sanders/Warren I could see Hickenlooper on a centrist third party ticket with Kasich (who could again challenge Trump in the GOP primaries) focused on moderates and independents. That is where his real value lies, not for the Democratic nomination
Don't forget either Perot got 19% as a third party candidate in 1992
Third-party just isn’t a thing here. The two main parties are deeply entrenched, and many states even have legal handicaps against third-parties standing. That bit in the Simpsons when Clinton and Dole are unmasked as Kang and Kodos but deride Homer’s assertion that he’ll vote for a third party with “And waste your vote? It’s a two-party system!” ain’t too far wrong.
Given a choice between Trump and say Sanders or Warren which many independents and moderates would see as a choice between death by hanging or death by poisoning there would be huge appetite for a third party candidate. Indeed while Bloomberg decided he would not run against Hillary he had hinted he may well have gone third party in a Trump v Sanders race even if he was unlikely to win as the choice would have been so awful from his perspective. Kasich and Hickenlooper may feel the same0 -
Do you not think maybe events and relying on chukka etc to pass anything might nudge things around a touch.Benpointer said:
It's not difficult; here's a clue..Jonathan said:
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.HYUFD said:
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.Jonathan said:
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.HYUFD said:
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between themJonathan said:
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.HYUFD said:
No. This is a Brexit of the British peosurby said:
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.Fenman said:
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcelsGardenwalker said:
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.RobD said:
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.Gardenwalker said:
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf
0 -
A mere 270/1 POTUS tip ....
Tsk .. in the old days we used to rack up a half decent 500/1 bet to enable impoverished PBers to restock the wine cellar.
I don't recall who recommended that tip but I'm sure it'll come to me ....0 -
Just wanted to report we had 0.8mm of rain last night here in N Dorset - our first rain for 18 days. That makes 2.8mm in total since 31 May, with no more forecast for the next week.
No reports of flooding.0 -
-
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/21/dominic-raab-britainwill-refuse-pay-39-billion-divorce-bill/
What’s that coming over the Belgian hill, is it a massive hole in your budget? Might focus some minds.0 -
Maybe, but you said: "We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign". I'd say we have an idea, though we can never be certain.Jonathan said:
Do you not think maybe events and relying on chukka etc to pass anything might nudge things around a touch.Benpointer said:
It's not difficult; here's a clue..Jonathan said:
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.HYUFD said:
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.Jonathan said:
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.HYUFD said:
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between themJonathan said:
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.HYUFD said:
No. This is a Brexit of the British peosurby said:
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.Fenman said:
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcelsGardenwalker said:
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.RobD said:
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.Gardenwalker said:
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf0 -
Are we expecting any polls this evening?0
-
Any poll ? Any resignation ?0
-
At last......williamglenn said:0 -
We have as much idea as we had about how Mays administration would turn out back in 2016. IE next to none.Benpointer said:
Maybe, but you said: "We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign". I'd say we have an idea, though we can never be certain.Jonathan said:
Do you not think maybe events and relying on chukka etc to pass anything might nudge things around a touch.Benpointer said:
It's not difficult; here's a clue..Jonathan said:
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.HYUFD said:
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.Jonathan said:
A sint. It's suits the well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.HYUFD said:
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between themJonathan said:
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.HYUFD said:
No. This is a Brexit of the British peosurby said:
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.Fenman said:
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcelsGardenwalker said:
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.RobD said:
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.Gardenwalker said:
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf0 -
It's <0.25% of the EU GDP; I think they'll manage somehow. Time to let go of 'they need us more than we need them'.Mortimer said:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/21/dominic-raab-britainwill-refuse-pay-39-billion-divorce-bill/
What’s that coming over the Belgian hill, is it a massive hole in your budget? Might focus some minds.0 -
I thought Britain always paid on commitments it had signed up to. So I take it, British citizens having worked for the EU, will not be paid their pension?williamglenn said:0 -
Most UK civil servants in Brussels are just that, still on the UK payroll.surby said:
I thought Britain always paid on commitments it had signed up to. So I take it, British citizens having worked for the EU, will not be paid their pension?williamglenn said:0 -
It hurts the Commission somewhat more than that...Benpointer said:
It's <0.25% of the EU GDP; I think they'll manage somehow. Time to let go of 'they need us more than we need them'.</p>Mortimer said:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/21/dominic-raab-britainwill-refuse-pay-39-billion-divorce-bill/
What’s that coming over the Belgian hill, is it a massive hole in your budget? Might focus some minds.0 -
Cheaper land, shorter winters meaning no winter feed required, reliable rainfall, few planning restraints, fewer requirements for conservation and a focus on an expanding Middle East market for Halal beef and Lamb. NZ is simply the best agricultural land on the planet.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed and even without subsidies they can still export. Funny that.RobD said:
Isn’t that what NZ does? And they don’t even have argicultural subsidies.Philip_Thompson said:
Fantastic! Let them compete on a level playing field like Kiwi farmers do and cut food costs for everyone else.surby said:
Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.OchEye said:
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.another_richard said:
So why don't they recruit more workers ?Scott_P said:
From the Times todayanother_richard said:Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:
Aberdeenshire
Fife
Nottinghamshire
Staffordshire
Norfolk
Herefordshire
Norfolk
Surrey
West Sussex
Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl
Win, win.
A lot of marginal British farmers, particularly hill and dairy farmers would go to the wall if there were no subsidies. Cheaper imported foods, but no longer the la ndscape that we know.0 -
If Corbyn wins the likes of Chuka will be deselected sooner rather than later by Momentum and have to form a new centrist party to continue their careersJonathan said:
Do you not think maybe events and relying on chukka etc to pass anything might nudge things around a touch.Benpointer said:
It's not difficult; here's a clue..Jonathan said:
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.HYUFD said:
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.Jonathan said:
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.HYUFD said:
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by n themJonathan said:
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.HYUFD said:
No. This is a Brexit of the British peosurby said:
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.Fenman said:
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcelsGardenwalker said:
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.RobD said:
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.Gardenwalker said:
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf0 -
As is your unobsession with him as to be blunt he and his allies are probably your only route back to the single market let alone the EU given Corbyn and May's commitment to Brexit and leaving the EEAwilliamglenn said:
We haven't left the single market yet and we don't have a credible plan to leave it.HYUFD said:We are not going to be 'begging to be readmitted' and subscribe ever more to EU dictatorship, the Euro and Schengen without even the whisper of complaint on anything for all eternity. I cannot believe even William Glenn would be so stupid as to believe that.
What we may do is see someone like Umunna win on a platform to rejoin the single market the election after next if immigration has fallen a bit and the economy is down a bit and voters are willing to put the economy rather than immigration control first as they were not in the referendum.
Your obsession with Chuka Umunna is bizarre.0 -
Presumably said to impress Leavers and not the EU, who certainly won't be impressed. I'm not sure Raab has thought this through, as the UK will end up paying this money.williamglenn said:0 -
Only if we get a deal.FF43 said:
Presumably said to impress Leavers and not the EU, who certainly won't be impressed. I'm not sure Raab has thought this through, as the UK will end up paying this money.williamglenn said:0 -
I have made clear I would have voted Leave if Remain required Euro membership and Schengen but could just about accept our membership as it was but I also respect the Leave votesurby said:
If this is your view of the EU, er, how come you voted to Remain ?HYUFD said:
We are not going to be 'begging to be readmitted' and subscribe ever more to EU dictatorship, the Euro and Schengen without even the whisper of complaint on anything for all eternity. I cannot believe even William Glenn would be so stupid as to believe that.rpjs said:
Well if rejoin is in the context of a car-crash Brexit that has us begging to be readmited, any time after that that we seek any sort of opt-out the answer will be “what are you going to do if we say no, leave?”HYUFD said:
Most likely we would join the single market once immigration has been brought down, I cannot see us supporting rejoining the full EU again or the EU being willing to put up with our demands for opt outs and vetoes which soon enough would continue exactly as beforerpjs said:
The time it takes to admit new members is constrained atia, Cyprus and Romania are still not in Schengen). It would be easy for the UK to fudge staying out of both in practice.rkrkrk said:FPT:
I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.
A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.
And I think the EU would be delighted to have us rejoin after a car crash Brexit, pour encourager les autres.
What we may do is see someone like Umunna win on a platform to rejoin the single market the election after next if immigration has fallen a bit and the economy is down a bit and voters are willing to put the economy rather than immigration control first as they were not in the referendum.
Though regardless of what happens with the economy and immigration I think the sovereignty motivation for Brexit will remain and prevent us rejoining the full EU even if we rejoin the single market0 -
It is a big statement but of course paying the EU anything without a deal is politically impossiblesurby said:
I thought Britain always paid on commitments it had signed up to. So I take it, British citizens having worked for the EU, will not be paid their pension?williamglenn said:
Stakes just raised0 -
May is committed to all sorts of things that aren't happening so why you think that is the determining factor is a mystery. So far May has a plan to extend full EU membership without a say until 2021, and a request to discuss keeping parts of the single market after that, which is likely to end up being negotiated in the direction of the EEA anyway.HYUFD said:
As is your unobsession with him as to be blunt he and his allies are probably your only route back to the single market let alone the EU given Corbyn and May's commitment to Brexit and leaving the EEAwilliamglenn said:
We haven't left the single market yet and we don't have a credible plan to leave it.HYUFD said:We are not going to be 'begging to be readmitted' and subscribe ever more to EU dictatorship, the Euro and Schengen without even the whisper of complaint on anything for all eternity. I cannot believe even William Glenn would be so stupid as to believe that.
What we may do is see someone like Umunna win on a platform to rejoin the single market the election after next if immigration has fallen a bit and the economy is down a bit and voters are willing to put the economy rather than immigration control first as they were not in the referendum.
Your obsession with Chuka Umunna is bizarre.
Are you blind to the increasing number of Tory figures calling for us to stay in the EEA?0 -
It's time these Tory subsidy-junkies got a taste of the real world. I don't recall many farmers shedding a tear when the jobs of miners, ship builders and steel workers went to the wall for lack of subsidies.Foxy said:
Cheaper land, shorter winters meaning no winter feed required, reliable rainfall, few planning restraints, fewer requirements for conservation and a focus on an expanding Middle East market for Halal beef and Lamb. NZ is simply the best agricultural land on the planet.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed and even without subsidies they can still export. Funny that.RobD said:
Isn’t that what NZ does? And they don’t even have argicultural subsidies.Philip_Thompson said:
Fantastic! Let them compete on a level playing field like Kiwi farmers do and cut food costs for everyone else.surby said:
Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.OchEye said:
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.another_richard said:
So why don't they recruit more workers ?Scott_P said:
From the Times todayanother_richard said:Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a
The highest score for about three weeks.
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl
Win, win.
A lot of marginal British farmers, particularly hill and dairy farmers would go to the wall if there were no subsidies. Cheaper imported foods, but no longer the la ndscape that we know.
And the landscape would be a hell of a lot better without overgrazing and slapdash use of chemicals.0 -
It's the political impact that matters here rather than the economic one. It sets up an almighty battle between the givers and takers.Mortimer said:
It hurts the Commission somewhat more than that...Benpointer said:
It's <0.25% of the EU GDP; I think they'll manage somehow. Time to let go of 'they need us more than we need them'.</p>Mortimer said:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/21/dominic-raab-britainwill-refuse-pay-39-billion-divorce-bill/
What’s that coming over the Belgian hill, is it a massive hole in your budget? Might focus some minds.0 -
The amorphous UK doesn’t have any money; it is taxpayer’s money controlled by the UK govt.FF43 said:
Presumably said to impress Leavers and not the EU, who certainly won't be impressed. I'm not sure Raab has thought this through, as the UK will end up paying this money.williamglenn said:
Of which he is a senior minister...0 -
Lots of inefficient New Zealand farmers went to the wall too. They left the remaining sector leaner and fitter.Foxy said:
Cheaper land, shorter winters meaning no winter feed required, reliable rainfall, few planning restraints, fewer requirements for conservation and a focus on an expanding Middle East market for Halal beef and Lamb. NZ is simply the best agricultural land on the planet.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed and even without subsidies they can still export. Funny that.RobD said:
Isn’t that what NZ does? And they don’t even have argicultural subsidies.Philip_Thompson said:
Fantastic! Let them compete on a level playing field like Kiwi farmers do and cut food costs for everyone else.surby said:
Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.OchEye said:
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.another_richard said:
So why don't they recruit more workers ?Scott_P said:
From the Times todayanother_richard said:Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:
Aberdeenshire
Fife
Nottinghamshire
Staffordshire
Norfolk
Herefordshire
Norfolk
Surrey
West Sussex
Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl
Win, win.
A lot of marginal British farmers, particularly hill and dairy farmers would go to the wall if there were no subsidies. Cheaper imported foods, but no longer the la ndscape that we know.0 -
The trouble is, May's government has ministers going off-message all over the place. Let's hear Theresa say it, preferably three times, then I might think it's actually HMG's official position.Mortimer said:
The amorphous UK doesn’t have any money; it is taxpayer’s money controlled by the UK govt.FF43 said:
Presumably said to impress Leavers and not the EU, who certainly won't be impressed. I'm not sure Raab has thought this through, as the UK will end up paying this money.williamglenn said:
Of which he is a senior minister...0 -
Leavers now savouring people “going to the wall”. Charming people.0
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But what percentage of the EU budget is it? Probably a fair bit bigger than 0.25%.Benpointer said:
It's <0.25% of the EU GDP; I think they'll manage somehow. Time to let go of 'they need us more than we need them'.</p>Mortimer said:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/21/dominic-raab-britainwill-refuse-pay-39-billion-divorce-bill/
What’s that coming over the Belgian hill, is it a massive hole in your budget? Might focus some minds.0 -
Where's the savouring? It sounded rather matter of fact to me.Gardenwalker said:Leavers now savouring people “going to the wall”. Charming people.
0 -
Before Chequers, yep. Since, not so much...John_M said:
The trouble is, May's government has ministers going off-message all over the place. Let's hear Theresa say it, preferably three times, then I might think it's actually HMG's official position.Mortimer said:
The amorphous UK doesn’t have any money; it is taxpayer’s money controlled by the UK govt.FF43 said:
Presumably said to impress Leavers and not the EU, who certainly won't be impressed. I'm not sure Raab has thought this through, as the UK will end up paying this money.williamglenn said:
Of which he is a senior minister...0 -
UK agriculture isn't just about making money. It's stewardship too. Our tourism industry depends directly and indirectly on our beautiful landscapes. There's probably a middle ground to be found - I know Gove is keen.Elliot said:
Lots of inefficient New Zealand farmers went to the wall too. They left the remaining sector leaner and fitter.Foxy said:
Cheaper land, shorter winters meaning no winter feed required, reliable rainfall, few planning restraints, fewer requirements for conservation and a focus on an expanding Middle East market for Halal beef and Lamb. NZ is simply the best agricultural land on the planet.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed and even without subsidies they can still export. Funny that.RobD said:
Isn’t that what NZ does? And they don’t even have argicultural subsidies.Philip_Thompson said:
Fantastic! Let them compete on a level playing field like Kiwi farmers do and cut food costs for everyone else.surby said:
Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.OchEye said:another_richard said:
So why don't they recruit more workers ?Scott_P said:
From the Times todayanother_richard said:Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:
Aberdeenshire
Fife
Nottinghamshire
Staffordshire
Norfolk
Herefordshire
Norfolk
Surrey
West Sussex
Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl
Win, win.
A lot of marginal British farmers, particularly hill and dairy farmers would go to the wall if there were no subsidies. Cheaper imported foods, but no longer the la ndscape that we know.0
This discussion has been closed.