How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year. There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.
Aberdeenshire Fife Nottinghamshire Staffordshire Norfolk Herefordshire Norfolk Surrey West Sussex Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
From the Times today
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.
So why are the farmers growing more than they can harvest or why are they taking on contracts which they can't fulfill or why are they accepting prices which they can't produce at ?
So why when London housing is such a scarce and expensive resource is taxpayers money being used to pay people to stay there to do nothing when people who would add value in finance, tech, culture etc cannot afford to live there ?
I am sure people in finance and tech could afford to live there, the average salary in the City and for the likes of Google, Apple and Facebook is close to £100 000 a year.
People in culture and other areas of the economy maybe not
I suspect there might be a few London finance and tech workers wondering where their £100k job is.
If you do finance or tech in the public sector or for a charity or for a SME maybe but it is London where most of the high paid finance and tech jobs are
Aberdeenshire Fife Nottinghamshire Staffordshire Norfolk Herefordshire Norfolk Surrey West Sussex Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
From the Times today
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.
Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.
Fantastic! Let them compete on a level playing field like Kiwi farmers do and cut food costs for everyone else.
Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.
So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?
Reads to me as if they’re pointing out the realities: a hard border means that Ireland has the responsibilities to maintain the SM’s integrity. They don’t appear to have Ireland’s back.
But note they also say that Britain will be in a less favourable position than Russia vis a vis trade with the EU.
Now this may all be legally correct. And it may very largely be the result of Britain’s inept and arrogant handling of Brexit.
But the EU really ought to ask itself whether it makes sense to humiliate a former member, the world’s 5th (for now) largest economy, member of the Security Council etc. Humiliating countries, however much they may be at fault, does not usually end well. Nor does it reflect well on the EU. And while they may not care now, they may find that this could lead to unforeseen and unpleasant consequences in future.
Britain is not going to disappear. Just as we would be well advised to adopt a more grown up approach to our relationship with the EU, so would the EU be well advised to do the same vis-a-vi Britain.
Right from the word go we have taken a very adversarial attitude. Using phrases like, "the EU is trying to punish us". This was just after Art.50 was triggered.
The only logical sense coming out of this is: we are leaving and it is their duty to make it easy . Oh, by the way, can we cherry pick what we want even if that breaks the four freedoms because - wait a minute - we are so ******* important.
I agree we have been inept and arrogant. But they do have a duty to consider the future relationship under Article 50.
My point is not whether their attitude is right or understandable. It may be both. But whether it is wise.
Anybody who doesn't realise that we are both to blame for this mess is a fanatic.
How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year. There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.
Thanks to [ German ] sensors, many of these farms are automated. A vast cucumber "factory farm", I visited only has about 30 workers. Mostly working on the packaging side.
Why do you think your cucumbers are of similar sizes ?
Aberdeenshire Fife Nottinghamshire Staffordshire Norfolk Herefordshire Norfolk Surrey West Sussex Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
From the Times today
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.
It is the LDs and the likes of Umunna and Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
What we're witnessing is the immovable object meeting the irresistible force.
The immovable object is Politicians' desire to want to tell people what they want to hear.
The irresistible force is the contradictory, irreconcilable and outright impossible instructions politicians believe the UK electorate has given them.
Something is going to have to give, I wish I knew what.
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
Aberdeenshire Fife Nottinghamshire Staffordshire Norfolk Herefordshire Norfolk Surrey West Sussex Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
From the Times today
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.
Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.
Fantastic! Let them compete on a level playing field like Kiwi farmers do and cut food costs for everyone else.
Win, win.
Isn’t that what NZ does? And they don’t even have argicultural subsidies.
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.
How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year. There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.
Thanks to [ German ] sensors, many of these farms are automated. A vast cucumber "factory farm", I visited only has about 30 workers. Mostly working on the packaging side.
Why do you think your cucumbers are of similar sizes ?
ANDREA Leadsom declared she “hated” the ‘soft’ Brexit compromise reached at the crunch Chequers summit according to leaked minutes taken at the meeting, despite publicly declaring her support for the deal.
ANDREA Leadsom declared she “hated” the ‘soft’ Brexit compromise reached at the crunch Chequers summit according to leaked minutes taken at the meeting, despite publicly declaring her support for the deal.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit. Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. It was the British people who voted Leave when the Tory leader backed and campaigned for Remain and Corbyn did sod all for Remain in terms of campaigning. It is May who has put forward a Chequers Deal compromise to the EU at the cost of losing Tory Leavers to UKIP and putting Corbyn ahead in the polls. Indeed Corbyn's Brexit plan is virtually identical to May's.
It is the LDs and the likes of Umunna and Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.
How lovely.
Ironically the best way now for the Tories to beat Corbyn is to pursue hard Brexit to win back Tory defectors to UKIP, which only reinforces the point I just made
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit. Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. It was the British people who voted Leave when the Tory leader backed and campaigned for Remain and Corbyn did sod all for Remain in terms of campaigning. It is May who has put forward a Chequers Deal compromise to the EU at the cost of losing Tory Leavers to UKIP and putting Corbyn ahead in the polls. Indeed Corbyn's Brexit plan is virtually identical to May's.
It is the LDs and the likes of Umunna and Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
I take Jonathan's point though. Corbyn isn't the Prime Minister. Few voters are going to weigh May's implementation against Labour's in the way you describe. It is a Tory Brexit because we have a Tory government. This doesn't seem particularly controversial.
It's the nature of politics for Labour to claim that they would do it better, and it's a moot point as to whether they actually would or not.
How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year. There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.
Thanks to [ German ] sensors, many of these farms are automated. A vast cucumber "factory farm", I visited only has about 30 workers. Mostly working on the packaging side.
Why do you think your cucumbers are of similar sizes ?
Isn’t that because of EU regs?
In terms of food standards like length, number of blemishes, curvature they are all set by the WHO or Codex Alimentarius (UN). The EU get a fax put in their added value and fax to the member countries. Food is a global business.
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
Difference is, May believes it can succeed.
Corbyn wants it to fail.
No, ideologically that is what Corbyn believes, he genuinely opposes the single market unlike say Umunna as staying in the single market would block the nationalisation plans he and McDonnell have
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit. Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. It was the British people who voted Leave when the Tory leader backed and campaigned for Remain and Corbyn did sod all for Remain in terms of campaigning. It is May who has put forward a Chequers Deal compromise to the EU at the cost of losing Tory Leavers to UKIP and putting Corbyn ahead in the polls. Indeed Corbyn's Brexit plan is virtually identical to May's.
It is the LDs and the likes of Umunna and Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.
How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year. There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.
Thanks to [ German ] sensors, many of these farms are automated. A vast cucumber "factory farm", I visited only has about 30 workers. Mostly working on the packaging side.
Why do you think your cucumbers are of similar sizes ?
Isn’t that because of EU regs?
Maybe. But you could not employ vast numbers of people just to pick a cucumber at exactly the correct time. Cameras and sensors do it.
How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year. There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.
Thanks to [ German ] sensors, many of these farms are automated. A vast cucumber "factory farm", I visited only has about 30 workers. Mostly working on the packaging side.
Why do you think your cucumbers are of similar sizes ?
Isn’t that because of EU regs?
Most, but not all, of those directives were withdrawn in July '09.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit. Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. It was the British people who voted Leave when the Tory leader backed and campaigned for Remain and Corbyn o the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
I take Jonathan's point though. Corbyn isn't the Prime Minister. Few voters are going to weigh May's implementation against Labour's in the way you describe. It is a Tory Brexit because we have a Tory government. This doesn't seem particularly controversial.
It's the nature of politics for Labour to claim that they would do it better, and it's a moot point as to whether they actually would or not.
Oppositions will always oppose that does not change the core fact a Corbyn government would be delivering almost exactly the same Brexit as this May government
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.
How lovely.
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.
How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year. There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.
Thanks to [ German ] sensors, many of these farms are automated. A vast cucumber "factory farm", I visited only has about 30 workers. Mostly working on the packaging side.
Why do you think your cucumbers are of similar sizes ?
Isn’t that because of EU regs?
Maybe. But you could not employ vast numbers of people just to pick a cucumber at exactly the correct time. Cameras and sensors do it.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit. Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. nd Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
The position of opposition is irrelevant. It didn't help Brown one jot that Cameron matched spending. IDS was more hawkish on Iraq than Blair, does anyone care? Kinnock was closer to the EMF than Major, yet it was the Tories in government that carried responsibility.
It's the same today, whether you, May or anyone else wishes any different.
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.
How lovely.
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit. Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. nd Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.
How lovely.
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit. Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. nd Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.
Of course we do. We have years as leader and several decades of euroscepticism before that.
I appreciate the current negotiating position may not be the final deal - and that there could be no deal.
But if something which approximates to the Chequers agreement did become the final deal what would it mean for a future Corbyn Govt re:
1) Nationalisation - ie would "Common Rule Book" for goods prevent nationalisation / state subsidies?
2) Capital Controls - no hard border would allow you to drive to ROI with car full of cash(!) but not particularly convenient for moving large sums!
More critically, it bans state aid. The EU need to realise Chequers is as good as they're going to get from any realistic UK government. However, they are going to overplay their hand again. We will crash out without a deal, which will likely kick off another eurocrisis.
The position of opposition is irrelevant. It didn't help Brown one jot that Cameron matched spending. IDS was more hawkish on Iraq than Blair, does anyone care? Kinnock was closer to the EMF than Major, yet it was the Tories in government that carried responsibility.
It's the same today, whether you, May or anyone else wishes any different.
I was talking about the impact on the country for once rather than trying to engage in party political one upmanship between reds and blues which would still end up with the same result whichever of the current party leaderships were to win.
As I have already made clear I think only hard Brexit can beat Corbyn not May's Brexit even if May's Brexit may be better for the country
Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.
So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?
The newspaper is bigging up their interviewee. I'd never heard of him so I looked him up. He's deputy chairman of the Advisory Board of the Federal Network Agency for Electricity, Gas, Telecommunications, Post and Railways. He's a key ally in the same sense that I was a key ally of Tony Blair, because I had a minor PPS role.
Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.
So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?
Reads to me as if they’re pointing out the realities: a hard border means that Ireland has the responsibilities to maintain the SM’s integrity. They don’t appear to have Ireland’s back.
But note they also say that Britain will be in a less favourable position than Russia vis a vis trade with the EU.
Now this may all be legally correct. And it may very largely be the result of Britain’s inept and arrogant handling of Brexit.
But the EU really ought to ask itself whether it makes sense to humiliate a former member, the world’s 5th (for now) largest economy, member of the Security Council etc. Humiliating countries, however much they may be at fault, does not usually end well. Nor does it reflect well on the EU. And while they may not care now, they may find that this could lead to unforeseen and unpleasant consequences in future.
Britain is not going to disappear. Just as we would be well advised to adopt a more grown up approach to our relationship with the EU, so would the EU be well advised to do the same vis-a-vi Britain.
You have a valid point in general, but the EU doesn't think it has any obligation to protect us from the consequences of our own decisions. Particularly when those decisions harm them too In the currently unlikely event that we change our mind, I would hope they give us a graceful way back. But it doesn't have an obligation beyond that. We humiliate ourselves. It has nothing to do with the EU.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit. Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. nd Soubry customs union but not 'the' customs union
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
A subtle but important point. olicy in government.
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.
Wrong, we have plenty of idea.
Corbyn 'The single market could hold the UK back', a direct quote as he made clear he thought the single market could lead to privatisation of services and prevent the rebalancing of the UK economy he wanted Labour to implement if elected
How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year. There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.
Whilst I bet Strawberries are well within current tech Raspberry-like things will be outside the current automation envelope - or more likely the tech that could accurately and safely pick raspberries would be more profitably employed/developed elsewhere.
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.
How lovely.
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.
The hard right are in power?
The very soft right.
Its the hard right, masquerading as the very soft right, to get brexit through.
How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year. There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.
Whilst I bet Strawberries are well within current tech Raspberry-like things will be outside the current automation envelope - or more likely the tech that could accurately and safely pick raspberries would be more profitably employed/developed elsewhere.
So we get automation on strawberries and divert the handful of remaining pickers to the critical raspberry industry.
San Diego Comic Con is on and the Doctor Who series 11, Star Trek Discovery series 2, Glass, Aquaman, and Shazam trailers are out. Which one will I torment you with first? Ah, so much fun to be had...
Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.
So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?
The newspaper is bigging up their interviewee. I'd never heard of him so I looked him up. He's deputy chairman of the Advisory Board of the Federal Network Agency for Electricity, Gas, Telecommunications, Post and Railways. He's a key ally in the same sense that I was a key ally of Tony Blair, because I had a minor PPS role.
HYUFD - Would you leave the Conservatives if they put Remain back on a ballot in a second referendum?
No, given I voted Remain of course not.
Though if Leave won again it would be hard Brexit anyway and if Remain won I expect there would be mass defections of Tory Leavers to UKIP to push for a third referendum so it would solve precisely nothing
I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.
A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.
The time it takes to admit new members is constrained by how fast they can enact the EU acquis into local law. An immediately rejoining UK would have all of that as we have transposed it all into UK law. The only two parts that would need to be added are Schengen and the Euro. The Euro requires ERM membership, which is not mandatory (Sweden’s method of staying out indefinitely) and Schengen requires the other Schengen states to approve the state of the applicant’s border and internal security (which is why Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania are still not in Schengen). It would be easy for the UK to fudge staying out of both in practice.
And I think the EU would be delighted to have us rejoin after a car crash Brexit, pour encourager les autres.
Most likely we would join the single market once immigration has been brought down, I cannot see us supporting rejoining the full EU again or the EU being willing to put up with our demands for opt outs and vetoes which soon enough would continue exactly as before
Well if rejoin is in the context of a car-crash Brexit that has us begging to be readmited, any time after that that we seek any sort of opt-out the answer will be “what are you going to do if we say no, leave?”
The best way to cook fresh mackerel is to stuff it with basil, onions, red and yellow peppers, baste with oil and garlic and grill under high heat until the skin starts to brown. Turn and do the other side.
How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year. There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.
Whilst I bet Strawberries are well within current tech Raspberry-like things will be outside the current automation envelope - or more likely the tech that could accurately and safely pick raspberries would be more profitably employed/developed elsewhere.
So we get automation on strawberries and divert the handful of remaining pickers to the critical raspberry industry.
Need some help picking my raspberries. Autumn fruiting plants producing in the middle of fecking July. I like raspberries but by November I think I may be a bit sick of them.
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.
How lovely.
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.
The hard right are in power?
The very soft right.
Its the hard right, masquerading as the very soft right, to get brexit through.
What's hard about it when spending is at record levels, social laws have been liberalised and migration is in the hundreds of thousands?
I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.
A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.
The time it takes to admit new members is constrained by how fast they can enact the EU acquis into local law. An immediately rejoining UK would have all of that as we have transposed it all into UK law. The only two parts that would need to be added are Schengen and the Euro. The Euro requires ERM membership, which is not mandatory (Sweden’s method of staying out indefinitely) and Schengen requires the other Schengen states to approve the state of the applicant’s border and internal security (which is why Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania are still not in Schengen). It would be easy for the UK to fudge staying out of both in practice.
And I think the EU would be delighted to have us rejoin after a car crash Brexit, pour encourager les autres.
Most likely we would join the single market once immigration has been brought down, I cannot see us supporting rejoining the full EU again or the EU being willing to put up with our demands for opt outs and vetoes which soon enough would continue exactly as before
Well if rejoin is in the context of a car-crash Brexit that has us begging to be readmited, any time after that that we seek any sort of opt-out the answer will be “what are you going to do if we say no, leave?”
We are not going to be 'begging to be readmitted' and subscribe ever more to EU dictatorship, the Euro and Schengen without even the whisper of complaint on anything for all eternity. I cannot believe even William Glenn would be so stupid as to believe that.
What we may do is see someone like Umunna win on a platform to rejoin the single market the election after next if immigration has fallen a bit and the economy is down a bit and voters are willing to put the economy rather than immigration control first as they were not in the referendum.
Though regardless of what happens with the economy and immigration I think the sovereignty motivation for Brexit will remain and prevent us rejoining the full EU even if we rejoin the single market
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.
How lovely.
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.
The hard right are in power?
The very soft right.
Its the hard right, masquerading as the very soft right, to get brexit through.
What superlative would you require to describe how hard right naziism is? Ultra mega extreme hard right?
Aberdeenshire Fife Nottinghamshire Staffordshire Norfolk Herefordshire Norfolk Surrey West Sussex Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
From the Times today
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.
Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.
Fantastic! Let them compete on a level playing field like Kiwi farmers do and cut food costs for everyone else.
Win, win.
Isn’t that what NZ does? And they don’t even have argicultural subsidies.
Indeed and even without subsidies they can still export. Funny that.
How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?
The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year. There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
What I think will happen now is that there will be much investment in automation; our farmers are an innovative lot.
Whilst I bet Strawberries are well within current tech Raspberry-like things will be outside the current automation envelope - or more likely the tech that could accurately and safely pick raspberries would be more profitably employed/developed elsewhere.
So we get automation on strawberries and divert the handful of remaining pickers to the critical raspberry industry.
Need some help picking my raspberries. Autumn fruiting plants producing in the middle of fecking July. I like raspberries but by November I think I may be a bit sick of them.
Same here, which is a good job as the wood pigeons trashed the summer raspberries.
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.
How lovely.
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.
The hard right are in power?
The very soft right.
Its the hard right, masquerading as the very soft right, to get brexit through.
What superlative would you require to describe how hard right naziism is? Ultra mega extreme hard right?
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.
How lovely.
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.
The hard right are in power?
The very soft right.
Its the hard right, masquerading as the very soft right, to get brexit through.
What superlative would you require to describe how hard right naziism is? Ultra mega extreme hard right?
Fascism isn't hard right.
Fair point. Just wanted to point how ridiculous it was to describe the current Tory party as hard right.
It will take almost a decade of hard Brexit and/or Corbyn until the pro EEA centre is able to get power again I think
I really wish all roads didn't seem to point to a hard left Corbyn government, but thanks to the Conservative Party and their euro-psychosis that does seem to be what we have to look forward to.
How lovely.
The alternative scenario is that Corbyn phobia will keep the hard right in power. You have to choose between two insane options.
Hickenlooper may run but he has little chance of getting the nomination with Democratic primary voters looking to pick a left liberal populist to take on Trump like Sanders or Warren after Hillary's defeat in 2016 on a centrist platform.
Though if it does end up Trump v Sanders/Warren I could see Hickenlooper on a centrist third party ticket with Kasich (who could again challenge Trump in the GOP primaries) focused on moderates and independents. That is where his real value lies, not for the Democratic nomination
I doubt there’d be a third-party ticket. Third parties never win nationally in the US. All they can do is nobble one or other of the two main parties.
A Trump v Sanders ticket would be the most polarised since Nixon v McGovern or Johnson v Goldwater, in fact even more so as Nixon and Johnson at least made some nods to the centrist establishment unlike Trump or Sanders. If ever there was a condition for a centrist candidate it would be that.
Don't forget either Perot got 19% as a third party candidate in 1992
And put Clinton into the White House. It was the GOP vote that Perot split, not the Democratic.
Third-party just isn’t a thing here. The two main parties are deeply entrenched, and many states even have legal handicaps against third-parties standing. That bit in the Simpsons when Clinton and Dole are unmasked as Kang and Kodos but deride Homer’s assertion that he’ll vote for a third party with “And waste your vote? It’s a two-party system!” ain’t too far wrong.
We are not going to be 'begging to be readmitted' and subscribe ever more to EU dictatorship, the Euro and Schengen without even the whisper of complaint on anything for all eternity. I cannot believe even William Glenn would be so stupid as to believe that.
What we may do is see someone like Umunna win on a platform to rejoin the single market the election after next if immigration has fallen a bit and the economy is down a bit and voters are willing to put the economy rather than immigration control first as they were not in the referendum.
We haven't left the single market yet and we don't have a credible plan to leave it.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit. Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
No. This is a Brexit of the British people. nd Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.
I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.
A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.
The time it takes to admit new members is constrained by how fast they can enact the EU acquis into local law. An immediately rejoining UK would have all of that as we have transposed it all into UK law. The only two parts that would need to be added are Schengen and the Euro. The Euro requires ERM membership, which is not mandatory (Sweden’s method of staying out indefinitely) and Schengen requires the other Schengen states to approve the state of the applicant’s border and internal security (which is why Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania are still not in Schengen). It would be easy for the UK to fudge staying out of both in practice.
And I think the EU would be delighted to have us rejoin after a car crash Brexit, pour encourager les autres.
Most likely we would join the single market once immigration has been brought down, I cannot see us supporting rejoining the full EU again or the EU being willing to put up with our demands for opt outs and vetoes which soon enough would continue exactly as before
Well if rejoin is in the context of a car-crash Brexit that has us begging to be readmited, any time after that that we seek any sort of opt-out the answer will be “what are you going to do if we say no, leave?”
We are not going to be 'begging to be readmitted' and subscribe ever more to EU dictatorship, the Euro and Schengen without even the whisper of complaint on anything for all eternity. I cannot believe even William Glenn would be so stupid as to believe that.
What we may do is see someone like Umunna win on a platform to rejoin the single market the election after next if immigration has fallen a bit and the economy is down a bit and voters are willing to put the economy rather than immigration control first as they were not in the referendum.
Though regardless of what happens with the economy and immigration I think the sovereignty motivation for Brexit will remain and prevent us rejoining the full EU even if we rejoin the single market
If this is your view of the EU, er, how come you voted to Remain ?
Hickenlooper may run but he has little chance of getting the nomination with Democratic primary voters looking to pick a left liberal populist to take on Trump like Sanders or Warren after Hillary's defeat in 2016 on a centrist platform.
Though if it does end up Trump v Sanders/Warren I could see Hickenlooper on a centrist third party ticket with Kasich (who could again challenge Trump in the GOP primaries) focused on moderates and independents. That is where his real value lies, not for the Democratic nomination
I doubt there’d be a third-party ticket. Third parties never win nationally in the US. All they can do is nobble one or other of the two main parties.
A Trump v Sanders ticket would be the most polarised since Nixon v McGovern or Johnson v Goldwater, in fact even more so as Nixon and Johnson at least made some nods to the centrist establishment unlike Trump or Sanders. If ever there was a condition for a centrist candidate it would be that.
Don't forget either Perot got 19% as a third party candidate in 1992
And put Clinton into the White House. It was the GOP vote that Perot split, not the Democratic.
Third-party just isn’t a thing here. The two main parties are deeply entrenched, and many states even have legal handicaps against third-parties standing. That bit in the Simpsons when Clinton and Dole are unmasked as Kang and Kodos but deride Homer’s assertion that he’ll vote for a third party with “And waste your vote? It’s a two-party system!” ain’t too far wrong.
Not true. Exit polls from 1992 show Perot pulled almost as many voters who would have voted for Clinton in 1992 or stayed at home if Perot had not run as those who would have voted for Bush Snr.
Given a choice between Trump and say Sanders or Warren which many independents and moderates would see as a choice between death by hanging or death by poisoning there would be huge appetite for a third party candidate. Indeed while Bloomberg decided he would not run against Hillary he had hinted he may well have gone third party in a Trump v Sanders race even if he was unlikely to win as the choice would have been so awful from his perspective. Kasich and Hickenlooper may feel the same
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit. Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
No. This is a Brexit of the British peo
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.
Just wanted to report we had 0.8mm of rain last night here in N Dorset - our first rain for 18 days. That makes 2.8mm in total since 31 May, with no more forecast for the next week.
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
No. This is a Brexit of the British peo
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.
Do you not think maybe events and relying on chukka etc to pass anything might nudge things around a touch.
Maybe, but you said: "We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign". I'd say we have an idea, though we can never be certain.
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
No. This is a Brexit of the British peo
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by May's Government is also almost exactly the same version of Brexit proposed by Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, you could barely fit a cigarette paper between them
A sint. It's suits the well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.
Do you not think maybe events and relying on chukka etc to pass anything might nudge things around a touch.
Maybe, but you said: "We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign". I'd say we have an idea, though we can never be certain.
We have as much idea as we had about how Mays administration would turn out back in 2016. IE next to none.
I thought Britain always paid on commitments it had signed up to. So I take it, British citizens having worked for the EU, will not be paid their pension?
I thought Britain always paid on commitments it had signed up to. So I take it, British citizens having worked for the EU, will not be paid their pension?
Most UK civil servants in Brussels are just that, still on the UK payroll.
Aberdeenshire Fife Nottinghamshire Staffordshire Norfolk Herefordshire Norfolk Surrey West Sussex Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
From the Times today
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.
Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.
Fantastic! Let them compete on a level playing field like Kiwi farmers do and cut food costs for everyone else.
Win, win.
Isn’t that what NZ does? And they don’t even have argicultural subsidies.
Indeed and even without subsidies they can still export. Funny that.
Cheaper land, shorter winters meaning no winter feed required, reliable rainfall, few planning restraints, fewer requirements for conservation and a focus on an expanding Middle East market for Halal beef and Lamb. NZ is simply the best agricultural land on the planet.
A lot of marginal British farmers, particularly hill and dairy farmers would go to the wall if there were no subsidies. Cheaper imported foods, but no longer the la ndscape that we know.
In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit. Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.
We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.
You have to carry responsibility for that.
Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.
Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.
Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
No. This is a Brexit of the British peo
Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.
As I said this version of Brexit as now pursued by n them
A subtle but important point. It's suits the opposition well to closely follow the government policy today keeping just a shade more Remain. That does not mean they would follow the same policy in government.
No It does, ideologically Corbyn has made clear he opposes staying in the single market as he believes it disrespects the Leave vote and would prevent him implementing the left-wing policies he wants to pursue.
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
We have no idea what Corbyn would actually try to do given a free reign, let alone what he would actually have to do given the PLP arithmetic. No idea at all.
Do you not think maybe events and relying on chukka etc to pass anything might nudge things around a touch.
If Corbyn wins the likes of Chuka will be deselected sooner rather than later by Momentum and have to form a new centrist party to continue their careers
We are not going to be 'begging to be readmitted' and subscribe ever more to EU dictatorship, the Euro and Schengen without even the whisper of complaint on anything for all eternity. I cannot believe even William Glenn would be so stupid as to believe that.
What we may do is see someone like Umunna win on a platform to rejoin the single market the election after next if immigration has fallen a bit and the economy is down a bit and voters are willing to put the economy rather than immigration control first as they were not in the referendum.
We haven't left the single market yet and we don't have a credible plan to leave it.
Your obsession with Chuka Umunna is bizarre.
As is your unobsession with him as to be blunt he and his allies are probably your only route back to the single market let alone the EU given Corbyn and May's commitment to Brexit and leaving the EEA
Presumably said to impress Leavers and not the EU, who certainly won't be impressed. I'm not sure Raab has thought this through, as the UK will end up paying this money.
Presumably said to impress Leavers and not the EU, who certainly won't be impressed. I'm not sure Raab has thought this through, as the UK will end up paying this money.
I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.
A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.
The time it takes to admit new members is constrained atia, Cyprus and Romania are still not in Schengen). It would be easy for the UK to fudge staying out of both in practice.
And I think the EU would be delighted to have us rejoin after a car crash Brexit, pour encourager les autres.
Most likely we would join the single market once immigration has been brought down, I cannot see us supporting rejoining the full EU again or the EU being willing to put up with our demands for opt outs and vetoes which soon enough would continue exactly as before
Well if rejoin is in the context of a car-crash Brexit that has us begging to be readmited, any time after that that we seek any sort of opt-out the answer will be “what are you going to do if we say no, leave?”
We are not going to be 'begging to be readmitted' and subscribe ever more to EU dictatorship, the Euro and Schengen without even the whisper of complaint on anything for all eternity. I cannot believe even William Glenn would be so stupid as to believe that.
What we may do is see someone like Umunna win on a platform to rejoin the single market the election after next if immigration has fallen a bit and the economy is down a bit and voters are willing to put the economy rather than immigration control first as they were not in the referendum.
Though regardless of what happens with the economy and immigration I think the sovereignty motivation for Brexit will remain and prevent us rejoining the full EU even if we rejoin the single market
If this is your view of the EU, er, how come you voted to Remain ?
I have made clear I would have voted Leave if Remain required Euro membership and Schengen but could just about accept our membership as it was but I also respect the Leave vote
I thought Britain always paid on commitments it had signed up to. So I take it, British citizens having worked for the EU, will not be paid their pension?
It is a big statement but of course paying the EU anything without a deal is politically impossible
We are not going to be 'begging to be readmitted' and subscribe ever more to EU dictatorship, the Euro and Schengen without even the whisper of complaint on anything for all eternity. I cannot believe even William Glenn would be so stupid as to believe that.
What we may do is see someone like Umunna win on a platform to rejoin the single market the election after next if immigration has fallen a bit and the economy is down a bit and voters are willing to put the economy rather than immigration control first as they were not in the referendum.
We haven't left the single market yet and we don't have a credible plan to leave it.
Your obsession with Chuka Umunna is bizarre.
As is your unobsession with him as to be blunt he and his allies are probably your only route back to the single market let alone the EU given Corbyn and May's commitment to Brexit and leaving the EEA
May is committed to all sorts of things that aren't happening so why you think that is the determining factor is a mystery. So far May has a plan to extend full EU membership without a say until 2021, and a request to discuss keeping parts of the single market after that, which is likely to end up being negotiated in the direction of the EEA anyway.
Are you blind to the increasing number of Tory figures calling for us to stay in the EEA?
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.
Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.
Fantastic! Let them compete on a level playing field like Kiwi farmers do and cut food costs for everyone else.
Win, win.
Isn’t that what NZ does? And they don’t even have argicultural subsidies.
Indeed and even without subsidies they can still export. Funny that.
Cheaper land, shorter winters meaning no winter feed required, reliable rainfall, few planning restraints, fewer requirements for conservation and a focus on an expanding Middle East market for Halal beef and Lamb. NZ is simply the best agricultural land on the planet.
A lot of marginal British farmers, particularly hill and dairy farmers would go to the wall if there were no subsidies. Cheaper imported foods, but no longer the la ndscape that we know.
It's time these Tory subsidy-junkies got a taste of the real world. I don't recall many farmers shedding a tear when the jobs of miners, ship builders and steel workers went to the wall for lack of subsidies.
And the landscape would be a hell of a lot better without overgrazing and slapdash use of chemicals.
Presumably said to impress Leavers and not the EU, who certainly won't be impressed. I'm not sure Raab has thought this through, as the UK will end up paying this money.
The amorphous UK doesn’t have any money; it is taxpayer’s money controlled by the UK govt.
Aberdeenshire Fife Nottinghamshire Staffordshire Norfolk Herefordshire Norfolk Surrey West Sussex Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
From the Times today
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.
Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.
Fantastic! Let them compete on a level playing field like Kiwi farmers do and cut food costs for everyone else.
Win, win.
Isn’t that what NZ does? And they don’t even have argicultural subsidies.
Indeed and even without subsidies they can still export. Funny that.
Cheaper land, shorter winters meaning no winter feed required, reliable rainfall, few planning restraints, fewer requirements for conservation and a focus on an expanding Middle East market for Halal beef and Lamb. NZ is simply the best agricultural land on the planet.
A lot of marginal British farmers, particularly hill and dairy farmers would go to the wall if there were no subsidies. Cheaper imported foods, but no longer the la ndscape that we know.
Lots of inefficient New Zealand farmers went to the wall too. They left the remaining sector leaner and fitter.
Presumably said to impress Leavers and not the EU, who certainly won't be impressed. I'm not sure Raab has thought this through, as the UK will end up paying this money.
The amorphous UK doesn’t have any money; it is taxpayer’s money controlled by the UK govt.
Of which he is a senior minister...
The trouble is, May's government has ministers going off-message all over the place. Let's hear Theresa say it, preferably three times, then I might think it's actually HMG's official position.
Presumably said to impress Leavers and not the EU, who certainly won't be impressed. I'm not sure Raab has thought this through, as the UK will end up paying this money.
The amorphous UK doesn’t have any money; it is taxpayer’s money controlled by the UK govt.
Of which he is a senior minister...
The trouble is, May's government has ministers going off-message all over the place. Let's hear Theresa say it, preferably three times, then I might think it's actually HMG's official position.
Aberdeenshire Fife Nottinghamshire Staffordshire Norfolk Herefordshire Norfolk Surrey West Sussex Kent
The highest score for about three weeks.
From the Times today
A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.
Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.
MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.
Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.
Fantastic! Let them compete on a level playing field like Kiwi farmers do and cut food costs for everyone else.
Win, win.
Isn’t that what NZ does? And they don’t even have argicultural subsidies.
Indeed and even without subsidies they can still export. Funny that.
Cheaper land, shorter winters meaning no winter feed required, reliable rainfall, few planning restraints, fewer requirements for conservation and a focus on an expanding Middle East market for Halal beef and Lamb. NZ is simply the best agricultural land on the planet.
A lot of marginal British farmers, particularly hill and dairy farmers would go to the wall if there were no subsidies. Cheaper imported foods, but no longer the la ndscape that we know.
Lots of inefficient New Zealand farmers went to the wall too. They left the remaining sector leaner and fitter.
UK agriculture isn't just about making money. It's stewardship too. Our tourism industry depends directly and indirectly on our beautiful landscapes. There's probably a middle ground to be found - I know Gove is keen.
Comments
Win, win.
Why do you think your cucumbers are of similar sizes ?
How lovely.
ANDREA Leadsom declared she “hated” the ‘soft’ Brexit compromise reached at the crunch Chequers summit according to leaked minutes taken at the meeting, despite publicly declaring her support for the deal.
Corbyn wants it to fail.
It's the nature of politics for Labour to claim that they would do it better, and it's a moot point as to whether they actually would or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiQG4zhMHLM
Hence pro single market Labour backbenchers like Umunna are so furious with Corbyn
It's the same today, whether you, May or anyone else wishes any different.
But if something which approximates to the Chequers agreement did become the final deal what would it mean for a future Corbyn Govt re:
1) Nationalisation - ie would "Common Rule Book" for goods prevent nationalisation / state subsidies?
2) Capital Controls - no hard border would allow you to drive to ROI with car full of cash(!) but not particularly convenient for moving large sums!
As I have already made clear I think only hard Brexit can beat Corbyn not May's Brexit even if May's Brexit may be better for the country
The lost members would be nothing as to the voters who would desert them though.
Corbyn 'The single market could hold the UK back', a direct quote as he made clear he thought the single market could lead to privatisation of services and prevent the rebalancing of the UK economy he wanted Labour to implement if elected
https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/jeremy-corbyn-single-market-hold-uk-back/
The overall picture was £1.3bn better than a month ago, being a downwards revision of £0.5bn and a June month £0.8bn better than last year.
A strong rest of the year could see borrowing fall under the £30bn.
[laughs madly, accompanied by thunder...
Though if Leave won again it would be hard Brexit anyway and if Remain won I expect there would be mass defections of Tory Leavers to UKIP to push for a third referendum so it would solve precisely nothing
The flavour is much, much better than pan frying
2) Dunno, but nobody is proposing capital controls so it doesn't matter.
What we may do is see someone like Umunna win on a platform to rejoin the single market the election after next if immigration has fallen a bit and the economy is down a bit and voters are willing to put the economy rather than immigration control first as they were not in the referendum.
Though regardless of what happens with the economy and immigration I think the sovereignty motivation for Brexit will remain and prevent us rejoining the full EU even if we rejoin the single market
Third-party just isn’t a thing here. The two main parties are deeply entrenched, and many states even have legal handicaps against third-parties standing. That bit in the Simpsons when Clinton and Dole are unmasked as Kang and Kodos but deride Homer’s assertion that he’ll vote for a third party with “And waste your vote? It’s a two-party system!” ain’t too far wrong.
Your obsession with Chuka Umunna is bizarre.
https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/labour-manifesto-2017.pdf
Given a choice between Trump and say Sanders or Warren which many independents and moderates would see as a choice between death by hanging or death by poisoning there would be huge appetite for a third party candidate. Indeed while Bloomberg decided he would not run against Hillary he had hinted he may well have gone third party in a Trump v Sanders race even if he was unlikely to win as the choice would have been so awful from his perspective. Kasich and Hickenlooper may feel the same
Tsk .. in the old days we used to rack up a half decent 500/1 bet to enable impoverished PBers to restock the wine cellar.
I don't recall who recommended that tip but I'm sure it'll come to me ....
No reports of flooding.
What’s that coming over the Belgian hill, is it a massive hole in your budget? Might focus some minds.
A lot of marginal British farmers, particularly hill and dairy farmers would go to the wall if there were no subsidies. Cheaper imported foods, but no longer the la ndscape that we know.
Stakes just raised
Are you blind to the increasing number of Tory figures calling for us to stay in the EEA?
And the landscape would be a hell of a lot better without overgrazing and slapdash use of chemicals.
Of which he is a senior minister...