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It's all rather unseemly, isn't it? But we should not be surprised that Tory right wingers willing to see millions suffer the consequences of a Hard Brexit are not all that fussed about the fate of an individual British citizen.Beverley_C said:Richard_Tyndall said:
Further to this I would also disagree with TGOHFs basic premise. One of th basic jobs of the FCO is to look after the interests of British citizens abroad whether they have been British for 80 years or 80 days. There are lots of dangerous places in the world and Brits have to visit them for hundreds of different reasons. They do so on the basis that the FCO, whilst it may not always be able to prevent them getting into trouble will, at least, not make things worse.NickPalmer said:
Really? Try a thought experiment. May gives up, Corbyn forms a minority government. Another Brit goes to Iran, and Thornberry absent-mindedly confirms the Revolutionary Guards' theory on the reason for the trip. Do youTGOHF said:
The FS should have more important stuff to do than bail out a recent Uk passport holder who is daft enough to go to Iran.
a) Say never mind, the FCO has more important things to worry about?
b) Say ha, we told you Corbyn was a sympathiser with extremists?
Don't you think that your political sympathies are influencing you?
And before you ask, no, I've been ready to praise Tory Ministers (recently Gove) when they're doing well. But you don't have to be a Labour supporter to see that Boris isn't just an accident waiting to happen, he's an accident that happens at regular intervals, and as such is not an ideal representative for Britain.
One of the reasons I think this govt is no longer fit for purpose is that they seem to be putting British people into harms way and not really worrying about it too much.0 -
Up to a point.Richard_Tyndall said:
Further to this I would also disagree with TGOHFs basic premise. One of th basic jobs of the FCO is to look after the interests of British citizens abroad whether they have been British for 80 years or 80 days. There are lots of dangerous places in the world and Brits have to visit them for hundreds of different reasons. They do so on the basis that the FCO, whilst it may not always be able to prevent them getting into trouble will, at least, not make things worse.NickPalmer said:
Really? Try a thought experiment. May gives up, Corbyn forms a minority government. Another Brit goes to Iran, and Thornberry absent-mindedly confirms the Revolutionary Guards' theory on the reason for the trip. Do youTGOHF said:
The FS should have more important stuff to do than bail out a recent Uk passport holder who is daft enough to go to Iran.
a) Say never mind, the FCO has more important things to worry about?
b) Say ha, we told you Corbyn was a sympathiser with extremists?
Don't you think that your political sympathies are influencing you?
And before you ask, no, I've been ready to praise Tory Ministers (recently Gove) when they're doing well. But you don't have to be a Labour supporter to see that Boris isn't just an accident waiting to happen, he's an accident that happens at regular intervals, and as such is not an ideal representative for Britain.
The government guidance on what can be done via a Consul is here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/support-for-british-nationals-abroad-a-guide
It specifically states that a Dual National can expect little help in the country of their other nationality.
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It isn't designed to help her. It is designed to #SaveBorisScott_P said:0 -
Your recollection is incorrect. Being over 21 and having sex with a 14/15 year old is not an offence of itself. However, it is an offence if the older person has exploited the 14/15 year old's lack of capacity for sexual self determination. The older person can only be convicted if the young person complains.TheScreamingEagles said:
That's not a proper understanding of the laws.Ishmael_Z said:Countries where the age of consent is 14: Albania, Andorra, Austria, Bulgaria, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Estonia, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Liechtenstein, Macedonia, Montenegro, Portugal, San Marino, Serbia.
Refreshing to see the Remainariat having a "Let's all laugh at the pervy foreigners" moment.
IIRC no one over the age of 21 can have sexual relations with a 14/15 year old in Germany.0 -
Let's hope it's as effective as tezza's cunning plan to increase her majority...SandyRentool said:It isn't designed to help her. It is designed to #SaveBoris
It was slightly embarrassing seeing him at the Cenotaph this morning0 -
That suspicion would then imply not just that Ms Zaghari-Ratcliffe was teaching journalism but she and her husband are lying about it. If that's the case, it's the case and Zaghari-Ratcliffe will face the consequences. But you would have to be 100% demonstrably correct in your implications because your words have just seen her prison sentence increase. 99% certain isn't good enough. If you have any doubt it is better to go with what she says and say you were misinformed later on if it turns out differently. The whole thing was avoidable if Boris Johnson had been more circumspect.DavidL said:I just have a suspicion that the government has picked up wind that she was doing rather more than being on holiday. Boris's initial comment was that helping someone become a journalist is not a crime. Of course it isn't in any sane or civilised society. But in Iran....
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Trouble is the Irish don't want it. The last thing they want is three quarters of a million unwilling unionists ready to cause chaos in their country. So whilst in an ideal world I agree with you, in practice it would be very, very bad for peace on the Island of Ireland.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.0 -
Basic principle of senior management is delegation. If I was responsible for the team that was expected to deliver it I'd be all over the details. But I'm not.Scott_P said:
There you go againCharles said:Sure there will be some complexity but it is manageable with a bit of thought.
"Someone, not me, some other unspecified smart person, will sort this out. Trust me"
Even if it were true that it is manageable with a bit of thought (and I don't believe it is), the timetable is insufficient
I do claim some level of expertise on large Government IT projects. There will not be an invisible, high tech border in place by March 2019
Fundamentally everything is solved Le with some effort.
But now I'm off to California for 36 hours so enjoy yourself.0 -
Exactly!SandyRentool said:
It isn't designed to help her. It is designed to #SaveBorisScott_P said:twitter.com/tomporteous/status/929697794889322496
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Yep. The bottom line is that even if she was doing something illegal as far as Iranian law was concerned, she, and we, would not expect the UK Foreign Secretary to drop her in it through sheer carelessness.FF43 said:
That suspicion would then imply not just that Ms Zaghari-Ratcliffe was teaching journalism but she and her husband are lying about it. If that's the case, it's the case and Zaghari-Ratcliffe will face the consequences. But you would have to be 100% demonstrably correct in your implications because your words have just seen her prison sentence increase. 99% certain isn't good enough. If you have any doubt it is better to go with what she says and say you were misinformed later on if it turns out differently. The whole thing was avoidable if Boris Johnson had been more circumspect.DavidL said:I just have a suspicion that the government has picked up wind that she was doing rather more than being on holiday. Boris's initial comment was that helping someone become a journalist is not a crime. Of course it isn't in any sane or civilised society. But in Iran....
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I was not a dual national but I was very grateful for the British representative in Tunisia many years ago when I was arrested for spying. I suspect I would have been more than a little peeved if the consul had turned up and told the police I was indeed spying (I wasn't of course)foxinsoxuk said:
Up to a point.Richard_Tyndall said:
Further to this I would also disagree with TGOHFs basic premise. One of th basic jobs of the FCO is to look after the interests of British citizens abroad whether they have been British for 80 years or 80 days. There are lots of dangerous places in the world and Brits have to visit them for hundreds of different reasons. They do so on the basis that the FCO, whilst it may not always be able to prevent them getting into trouble will, at least, not make things worse.NickPalmer said:
Really? Try a thought experiment. May gives up, Corbyn forms a minority government. Another Brit goes to Iran, and Thornberry absent-mindedly confirms the Revolutionary Guards' theory on the reason for the trip. Do youTGOHF said:
The FS should have more important stuff to do than bail out a recent Uk passport holder who is daft enough to go to Iran.
a) Say never mind, the FCO has more important things to worry about?
b) Say ha, we told you Corbyn was a sympathiser with extremists?
Don't you think that your political sympathies are influencing you?
And before you ask, no, I've been ready to praise Tory Ministers (recently Gove) when they're doing well. But you don't have to be a Labour supporter to see that Boris isn't just an accident waiting to happen, he's an accident that happens at regular intervals, and as such is not an ideal representative for Britain.
The government guidance on what can be done via a Consul is here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/support-for-british-nationals-abroad-a-guide
It specifically states that a Dual National can expect little help in the country of their other nationality.0 -
Good idea. We just need to get that confirmed by a simultaneous referendum in both countries with the alternative being the status quo.David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.0 -
We're being governed by chancers and charlatans.Scott_P said:
Time for a strong and stable labour government, in the national interest.0 -
What is the Foreign Secretary went on National TV and said he didn't know if you were spying?Richard_Tyndall said:I was not a dual national but I was very grateful for the British representative in Tunisia many years ago when I was arrested for spying. I suspect I would have been more than a little peeved if the consul had turned up and told the police I was indeed spying (I wasn't of course)
Much better, right?0 -
Diehard unionists could leave, like the Pieds-Noirs left Algeria in 1962.Richard_Tyndall said:
Trouble is the Irish don't want it. The last thing they want is three quarters of a million unwilling unionists ready to cause chaos in their country. So whilst in an ideal world I agree with you, in practice it would be very, very bad for peace on the Island of Ireland.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.0 -
Last night, somebody on here (anotherNick IIRC) said that the Tory party had become a sect/cult with The Unquestionable Truth handed down from on high. That seems to be the way it has gone.SouthamObserver said:
It's all rather unseemly, isn't it? But we should not be surprised that Tory right wingers willing to see millions suffer the consequences of a Hard Brexit are not all that fussed about the fate of an individual British citizen.Beverley_C said:Richard_Tyndall said:
Further to this I would also disagree with TGOHFs basic premise. One of th basic jobs of the FCO is to look after the interests of British citizens abroad whether they have been British for 80 years or 80 days. There are lots of dangerous places in the world and Brits have to visit them for hundreds of different reasons. They do so on the basis that the FCO, whilst it may not always be able to prevent them getting into trouble will, at least, not make things worse.NickPalmer said:
Really? Try a thought experiment. May gives up, Corbyn forms a minority government. Another Brit goes to Iran, and Thornberry absent-mindedly confirms the Revolutionary Guards' theory on the reason for the trip. Do youTGOHF said:
The FS should have more important stuff to do than bail out a recent Uk passport holder who is daft enough to go to Iran.
a) Say never mind, the FCO has more important things to worry about?
b) Say ha, we told you Corbyn was a sympathiser with extremists?
Don't you think that your political sympathies are influencing you?
And before you ask, no, I've been ready to praise Tory Ministers (recently Gove) when they're doing well. But you don't have to be a Labour supporter to see that Boris isn't just an accident waiting to happen, he's an accident that happens at regular intervals, and as such is not an ideal representative for Britain.
One of the reasons I think this govt is no longer fit for purpose is that they seem to be putting British people into harms way and not really worrying about it too much.
I sometimes wonder how Theresa May's much vaunted sense of Public Service lets her stomach the egomaniacs in her party. Perhaps, if HIGNFY still has that tub of lard that stood in for Roy Hattersely many years ago, she could replace the large lump of lard currently in the Foreign Office with a newer, less rancid lump?0 -
Not sure what your point is given I have been saying all along Boris should resign. All I have done is given an example of where the system worked well as i am sure it does most of the time when the blonde bombshell is not involved.Scott_P said:
What is the Foreign Secretary went on National TV and said he didn't know if you were spying?Richard_Tyndall said:I was not a dual national but I was very grateful for the British representative in Tunisia many years ago when I was arrested for spying. I suspect I would have been more than a little peeved if the consul had turned up and told the police I was indeed spying (I wasn't of course)
Much better, right?0 -
I would agree that the Foreign Office should not make things worse! and of course the Iranian regime is pretty repressive, albeit not that much more so than other countries in the region.Richard_Tyndall said:
I was not a dual national but I was very grateful for the British representative in Tunisia many years ago when I was arrested for spying. I suspect I would have been more than a little peeved if the consul had turned up and told the police I was indeed spying (I wasn't of course)foxinsoxuk said:
Up to a point.Richard_Tyndall said:
Further to this I would also disagree with TGOHFs basic premise. One of th basic jobs of the FCO is to look after the interests of British citizens abroad whether they have been British for 80 years or 80 days. There are lots of dangerous places in the world and Brits have to visit them for hundreds of different reasons. They do so on the basis that the FCO, whilst it may not always be able to prevent them getting into trouble will, at least, not make things worse.NickPalmer said:
Really? Try a thought experiment. May gives up, Corbyn forms a minority government. Another Brit goes to Iran, and Thornberry absent-mindedly confirms the Revolutionary Guards' theory on the reason for the trip. Do youTGOHF said:
The FS should have more important stuff to do than bail out a recent Uk passport holder who is daft enough to go to Iran.
a) Say never mind, the FCO has more important things to worry about?
b) Say ha, we told you Corbyn was a sympathiser with extremists?
Don't you think that your political sympathies are influencing you?
And before you ask, no, I've been ready to praise Tory Ministers (recently Gove) when they're doing well. But you don't have to be a Labour supporter to see that Boris isn't just an accident waiting to happen, he's an accident that happens at regular intervals, and as such is not an ideal representative for Britain.
The government guidance on what can be done via a Consul is here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/support-for-british-nationals-abroad-a-guide
It specifically states that a Dual National can expect little help in the country of their other nationality.
Accusations of spying are always difficult as usually spies have a cover story, and the FCO should take a special interest in these whether or not the accusation is well founded.0 -
It's a variation on the "Of course there will be a deal - the Germans want to sell us their cars."Charles said:Willie Walsh went on the record a couple of weeks ago saying planes will still fly
Mr Walsh is probably correct. It is why we will probably sign up to the Article 50 deal on the EU's terms. There is a deal available to us (in outline). It's mostly workable and the unworkable bits I am sure can be sorted out. It does however go against the Brexit rhetoric, which is why people talk about walking away. Maintaining Brexit delusions isn't an EU objective. Actually it's important from their position to knock any such delusions firmly on the head to shore up the integrity of their organisation.0 -
No that is not the solution, the whole reason NI was established in the first place was because of violence by Ulster Unionists at the threat of being placed in the newly established Irish Free State. The British clearly could not go on ruling southern, Catholic Ireland given the increasingly violent turn Irish nationalism was taking in opposition to that but neither could NI be placed in the Republic without violence inevitably resulting.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.0 -
The problem with the Tory party is that they don't believe in anything except office, as Peter Hitchens correctly says.Beverley_C said:
Last night, somebody on here (anotherNick IIRC) said that the Tory party had become a sect/cult with The Unquestionable Truth handed down from on high. That seems to be the way it has gone.SouthamObserver said:
It's all rather unseemly, isn't it? But we should not be surprised that Tory right wingers willing to see millions suffer the consequences of a Hard Brexit are not all that fussed about the fate of an individual British citizen.Beverley_C said:Richard_Tyndall said:
Further to this I would also disagree with TGOHFs basic premise. One of th basic jobs of the FCO is to look after the interests of British citizens abroad whether they have been British for 80 years or 80 days. There are lots of dangerous places in the world and Brits have to visit them for hundreds of different reasons. They do so on the basis that the FCO, whilst it may not always be able to prevent them getting into trouble will, at least, not make things worse.NickPalmer said:
Really? Try a thought experiment. May gives up, Corbyn forms a minority government. Another Brit goes to Iran, and Thornberry absent-mindedly confirms the Revolutionary Guards' theory on the reason for the trip. Do youTGOHF said:
The FS should have more important stuff to do than bail out a recent Uk passport holder who is daft enough to go to Iran.
a) Say never mind, the FCO has more important things to worry about?
b) Say ha, we told you Corbyn was a sympathiser with extremists?
Don't you think that your political sympathies are influencing you?
And before you ask, no, I've been ready to praise Tory Ministers (recently Gove) when they're doing well. But you don't have to be a Labour supporter to see that Boris isn't just an accident waiting to happen, he's an accident that happens at regular intervals, and as such is not an ideal representative for Britain.
One of the reasons I think this govt is no longer fit for purpose is that they seem to be putting British people into harms way and not really worrying about it too much.
I sometimes wonder how Theresa May's much vaunted sense of Public Service lets her stomach the egomaniacs in her party. Perhaps, if HIGNFY still has that tub of lard that stood in for Roy Hattersely many years ago, she could replace the large lump of lard currently in the Foreign Office with a newer, less rancid lump?0 -
Given the position of power they would be in and their ability to cause chaos in the Irish Republic, why would they? Remember the Pied Noirs left because they were being exterminated by the FLN. The balance of power would be very different in a post unification Ireland.daodao said:
Diehard unionists could leave, like the Pieds-Noirs left Algeria in 1962.Richard_Tyndall said:
Trouble is the Irish don't want it. The last thing they want is three quarters of a million unwilling unionists ready to cause chaos in their country. So whilst in an ideal world I agree with you, in practice it would be very, very bad for peace on the Island of Ireland.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.
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Life goes on and parental duties intervene.
Bye for now....0 -
Ultimately that is how cognitive dissonance over Brexit will be resolved. We will choose to either have our cake or eat it. A serving of humble pie will be the first course though, and a steep bill.FF43 said:
It's a variation on the "Of course there will be a deal - the Germans want to sell us their cars."Charles said:Willie Walsh went on the record a couple of weeks ago saying planes will still fly
Mr Walsh is probably correct. It is why we will probably sign up to the Article 50 deal on the EU's terms. There is a deal available to us (in outline). It's mostly workable and the unworkable bits I am sure can be sorted out. It does however go against the Brexit rhetoric, which is why people talk about walking away. Maintaining Brexit delusions isn't an EU objective. Actually it's important from their position to knock any such delusions firmly on the head to shore up the integrity of their organisation.
It is why there nedds to be a substantive vote in parliament on the issue.0 -
Pretty sure not many on UK proper would want three quarters of a million Unionist ultras foisted on them either. A late outbreak of 'patriotic remembrance' marching this weekend certainly makes me tend to that view.daodao said:
Diehard unionists could leave, like the Pieds-Noirs left Algeria in 1962.Richard_Tyndall said:
Trouble is the Irish don't want it. The last thing they want is three quarters of a million unwilling unionists ready to cause chaos in their country. So whilst in an ideal world I agree with you, in practice it would be very, very bad for peace on the Island of Ireland.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.0 -
It's ok, we understand you have to say that.Richard_Tyndall said:I suspect I would have been more than a little peeved if the consul had turned up and told the police I was indeed spying (I wasn't of course)
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A serving of humble pie and a steep bill is what the UK has been getting for thirty years.foxinsoxuk said:
Ultimately that is how cognitive dissonance over Brexit will be resolved. We will choose to either have our cake or eat it. A serving of humble pie will be the first course though, and a steep bill.FF43 said:
It's a variation on the "Of course there will be a deal - the Germans want to sell us their cars."Charles said:Willie Walsh went on the record a couple of weeks ago saying planes will still fly
Mr Walsh is probably correct. It is why we will probably sign up to the Article 50 deal on the EU's terms. There is a deal available to us (in outline). It's mostly workable and the unworkable bits I am sure can be sorted out. It does however go against the Brexit rhetoric, which is why people talk about walking away. Maintaining Brexit delusions isn't an EU objective. Actually it's important from their position to knock any such delusions firmly on the head to shore up the integrity of their organisation.
It is why there nedds to be a substantive vote in parliament on the issue.0 -
My Dad was detained for trying to stowaway on the President of Algeria's private yacht.Richard_Tyndall said:
I was not a dual national but I was very grateful for the British representative in Tunisia many years ago when I was arrested for spying. I suspect I would have been more than a little peeved if the consul had turned up and told the police I was indeed spyingb (I wasn't of course)foxinsoxuk said:
Up to a point.Richard_Tyndall said:
Further to this I would also disagree with TGOHFs basic premise. One of th basic jobs of the FCO is to look after the interests of British citizens abroad whether they have been British for 80 years or 80 days. There are lots of dangerous places in the world and Brits have to visit them for hundreds of different reasons. They do so on the basis that the FCO, whilst it may not always be able to prevent them getting into trouble will, at least, not make things worse.NickPalmer said:
Really? Try a thought experiment. May gives up, Corbyn forms a minority government. Another Brit goes to Iran, and Thornberry absent-mindedly confirms the Revolutionary Guards' theory on the reason for the trip. Do youTGOHF said:
The FS should have more important stuff to do than bail out a recent Uk passport holder who is daft enough to go to Iran.
a) Say never mind, the FCO has more important things to worry about?
b) Say ha, we told you Corbyn was a sympathiser with extremists?
Don't you think that your political sympathies are influencing you?
And before you ask, no, I've been ready to praise Tory Ministers (recently Gove) when they're doing well. But you don't have to be a Labour supporter to see that Boris isn't just an accident waiting to happen, he's an accident that happens at regular intervals, and as such is not an ideal representative for Britain.
The government guidance on what can be done via a Consul is here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/support-for-british-nationals-abroad-a-guide
It specifically states that a Dual National can expect little help in the country of their other nationality.
The Ambassador turned up to the prison and said "I've spoken to your father, and he has told me to leave you here for a couple of days to teach you a lesson"0 -
All that is needed is for 200k or so who are most opposed to Irish re-unification to leave, and then a border poll among the remaining 1.4k population would probably give a majority in favour of re-unification, as per the option in the GF agreement. With the mass exodus of EU nationals post Brexit, there would be room for 200k ex-Ulster folk in GB proper.Theuniondivvie said:
Pretty sure not many on UK proper would want three quarters of a million Unionist ultras foisted on them either. A late outbreak of 'patriotic remembrance' marching this weekend certainly makes me tend to that view.daodao said:
Diehard unionists could leave, like the Pieds-Noirs left Algeria in 1962.Richard_Tyndall said:
Trouble is the Irish don't want it. The last thing they want is three quarters of a million unwilling unionists ready to cause chaos in their country. So whilst in an ideal world I agree with you, in practice it would be very, very bad for peace on the Island of Ireland.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.
0 -
The difference being Walsh is guilty of market abuse if he misleads investors. For instance he said the US will sign an Open Skies agreement "one second after midnight". He wouldn't have said that without being sureFF43 said:
It's a variation on the "Of course there will be a deal - the Germans want to sell us their cars."Charles said:Willie Walsh went on the record a couple of weeks ago saying planes will still fly
Mr Walsh is probably correct. It is why we will probably sign up to the Article 50 deal on the EU's terms. There is a deal available to us (in outline). It's mostly workable and the unworkable bits I am sure can be sorted out. It does however go against the Brexit rhetoric, which is why people talk about walking away. Maintaining Brexit delusions isn't an EU objective. Actually it's important from their position to knock any such delusions firmly on the head to shore up the integrity of their organisation.0 -
That won them power for most of the 20th century. Though Thatcher was the obvious exception.AndyJS said:
The problem with the Tory party is that they don't believe in anything except office, as Peter Hitchens correctly says.Beverley_C said:
Last night, somebody on here (anotherNick IIRC) said that the Tory party had become a sect/cult with The Unquestionable Truth handed down from on high. That seems to be the way it has gone.SouthamObserver said:
It's all rather unseemly, isn't it? But we should not be surprised that Tory right wingers willing to see millions suffer the consequences of a Hard Brexit are not all that fussed about the fate of an individual British citizen.Beverley_C said:Richard_Tyndall said:
Further to this I would also disagree with TGOHFs basic premise. One of th basic jobs of the FCO is to look after the interests of British citizens abroad whether they have been British for 80 years or 80 days. There are lots of dangerous places in the world and Brits have to visit them for hundreds of different reasons. They do so on the basis that the FCO, whilst it may not always be able to prevent them getting into trouble will, at least, not make things worse.NickPalmer said:
Really? Try a thought experiment. May gives up, Corbyn forms a minority government. Another Brit goes to Iran, and Thornberry absent-mindedly confirms the Revolutionary Guards' theory on the reason for the trip. Do youTGOHF said:
The FS should have more important stuff to do than bail out a recent Uk passport holder who is daft enough to go to Iran.
a) Say never mind, the FCO has more important things to worry about?
b) Say ha, we told you Corbyn was a sympathiser with extremists?
Don't you think that your political sympathies are influencing you?
And before you ask, no, I've been ready to praise Tory Ministers (recently Gove) when they're doing well. But you don't have to be a Labour supporter to see that Boris isn't just an accident waiting to happen, he's an accident that happens at regular intervals, and as such is not an ideal representative for Britain.
One of the reasons I think this govt is no longer fit for purpose is that they seem to be putting British people into harms way and not really worrying about it too much.
I sometimes wonder how Theresa May's much vaunted sense of Public Service lets her stomach the egomaniacs in her party. Perhaps, if HIGNFY still has that tub of lard that stood in for Roy Hattersely many years ago, she could replace the large lump of lard currently in the Foreign Office with a newer, less rancid lump?0 -
The Irish were the first "Western Democracy" to implement 'ethnic-cleansing': As a[n] [half] Kerryman and Roman-Catholic I hope St Peter does not hold the sins-of-my-fathers against me when my time has come.HYUFD said:
No that is not the solution, the whole reason NI was established in the first place was because of violence by Ulster Unionists at the threat of being placed in the newly established Irish Free State. The British clearly could not go on ruling southern, Catholic Ireland given the increasingly violent turn Irish nationalism was taking in opposition to that but neither could NI be placed in the Republic without violence inevitably resulting.
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Or the minority who want to reunite with the Republic move south. Though of course as most Unionists in NI are of Scottish origin if they returned there that would entrench Scotland in the Union permanentlydaodao said:
All that is needed is for 200k or so who are most opposed to Irish re-unification to leave, and then a border poll among the remaining 1.4k population would probably give a majority in favour of re-unification, as per the option in the GF agreement. With the mass exodus of EU nationals post Brexit, there would be room for 200k ex-Ulster folk in GB proper.Theuniondivvie said:
Pretty sure not many on UK proper would want three quarters of a million Unionist ultras foisted on them either. A late outbreak of 'patriotic remembrance' marching this weekend certainly makes me tend to that view.daodao said:
Diehard unionists could leave, like the Pieds-Noirs left Algeria in 1962.Richard_Tyndall said:
Trouble is the Irish don't want it. The last thing they want is three quarters of a million unwilling unionists ready to cause chaos in their country. So whilst in an ideal world I agree with you, in practice it would be very, very bad for peace on the Island of Ireland.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.0 -
Bullocks.HYUFD said:
No that is not the solution, the whole reason NI was established in the first place was because of violence by Ulster Unionists at the threat of being placed in the newly established Irish Free State. The British clearly could not go on ruling southern, Catholic Ireland given the increasingly violent turn Irish nationalism was taking in opposition to that but neither could NI be placed in the Republic without violence inevitably resulting.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.
It was because a majority of votes in the 6 counties were to remain part of the UK.
It's the UK belief in self-determination that means we have Northern Ireland not Ulster.
(I wrote my thesis on the period and was fortunately able to draw on Amelia Lizzie Lambert's private archive - her nephew Edward Carson kept her fully abreast of developments as they happened.0 -
We'd have to be careful not to resettle them next to (other) immigrant communities.daodao said:
All that is needed is for 200k or so who are most opposed to Irish re-unification to leave, and then a border poll among the remaining 1.4k population would probably give a majority in favour of re-unification, as per the option in the GF agreement. With the mass exodus of EU nationals post Brexit, there would be room for 200k ex-Ulster folk in GB proper.Theuniondivvie said:
Pretty sure not many on UK proper would want three quarters of a million Unionist ultras foisted on them either. A late outbreak of 'patriotic remembrance' marching this weekend certainly makes me tend to that view.daodao said:
Diehard unionists could leave, like the Pieds-Noirs left Algeria in 1962.Richard_Tyndall said:
Trouble is the Irish don't want it. The last thing they want is three quarters of a million unwilling unionists ready to cause chaos in their country. So whilst in an ideal world I agree with you, in practice it would be very, very bad for peace on the Island of Ireland.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.
0 -
You want jokes? I can do those too.Richard_Tyndall said:
What do you call Lynton Crosby?
"Sir"0 -
We spent millions of pounds and many lives over decades to make sure Northern Ireland didn't become Algeria, thank you.daodao said:
Diehard unionists could leave, like the Pieds-Noirs left Algeria in 1962.Richard_Tyndall said:
Trouble is the Irish don't want it. The last thing they want is three quarters of a million unwilling unionists ready to cause chaos in their country. So whilst in an ideal world I agree with you, in practice it would be very, very bad for peace on the Island of Ireland.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.0 -
Glasgow might workTheuniondivvie said:
We'd have to be careful not to resettle them next to (other) immigrant communities.daodao said:
All that is needed is for 200k or so who are most opposed to Irish re-unification to leave, and then a border poll among the remaining 1.4k population would probably give a majority in favour of re-unification, as per the option in the GF agreement. With the mass exodus of EU nationals post Brexit, there would be room for 200k ex-Ulster folk in GB proper.Theuniondivvie said:
Pretty sure not many on UK proper would want three quarters of a million Unionist ultras foisted on them either. A late outbreak of 'patriotic remembrance' marching this weekend certainly makes me tend to that view.daodao said:
Diehard unionists could leave, like the Pieds-Noirs left Algeria in 1962.Richard_Tyndall said:
Trouble is the Irish don't want it. The last thing they want is three quarters of a million unwilling unionists ready to cause chaos in their country. So whilst in an ideal world I agree with you, in practice it would be very, very bad for peace on the Island of Ireland.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.
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Just in case anyone needs confirmation of which side is the wankers' side in this.
https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/9296938711640678400 -
I don't think predictions of how other regulators might regulate counts as market abuse. Just as well for Mr Walsh, I suggest.Charles said:
The difference being Walsh is guilty of market abuse if he misleads investors. For instance he said the US will sign an Open Skies agreement "one second after midnight". He wouldn't have said that without being sureFF43 said:
It's a variation on the "Of course there will be a deal - the Germans want to sell us their cars."Charles said:Willie Walsh went on the record a couple of weeks ago saying planes will still fly
Mr Walsh is probably correct. It is why we will probably sign up to the Article 50 deal on the EU's terms. There is a deal available to us (in outline). It's mostly workable and the unworkable bits I am sure can be sorted out. It does however go against the Brexit rhetoric, which is why people talk about walking away. Maintaining Brexit delusions isn't an EU objective. Actually it's important from their position to knock any such delusions firmly on the head to shore up the integrity of their organisation.0 -
Perhaps you can remind us who gave Fred Goodwin and Philip Green knighthoods ?Pong said:
You want jokes? I can do those too.Richard_Tyndall said:
What do you call Lynton Crosby?
"Sir"0 -
Plenty of immigrants in Glasgow, a more mixed demography than many of those Brexit voting areas that deluded themselves that they were getting 'swamped'. It's one of the many things that the Union Flag waving Nazi-saluters in our city get exercised about.Charles said:
Glasgow might workTheuniondivvie said:
We'd have to be careful not to resettle them next to (other) immigrant communities.daodao said:
All that is needed is for 200k or so who are most opposed to Irish re-unification to leave, and then a border poll among the remaining 1.4k population would probably give a majority in favour of re-unification, as per the option in the GF agreement. With the mass exodus of EU nationals post Brexit, there would be room for 200k ex-Ulster folk in GB proper.Theuniondivvie said:
Pretty sure not many on UK proper would want three quarters of a million Unionist ultras foisted on them either. A late outbreak of 'patriotic remembrance' marching this weekend certainly makes me tend to that view.daodao said:
Diehard unionists could leave, like the Pieds-Noirs left Algeria in 1962.Richard_Tyndall said:
Trouble is the Irish don't want it. The last thing they want is three quarters of a million unwilling unionists ready to cause chaos in their country. So whilst in an ideal world I agree with you, in practice it would be very, very bad for peace on the Island of Ireland.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.0 -
If the UK had believed in self-determination in 1921 there would have been no British Empire by 1930.Charles said:
Bullocks.HYUFD said:
No that is not the solution, the whole reason NI was established in the first place was because of violence by Ulster Unionists at the threat of being placed in the newly established Irish Free State. The British clearly could not go on ruling southern, Catholic Ireland given the increasingly violent turn Irish nationalism was taking in opposition to that but neither could NI be placed in the Republic without violence inevitably resulting.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.
It was because a majority of votes in the 6 counties were to remain part of the UK.
It's the UK belief in self-determination that means we have Northern Ireland not Ulster.
(I wrote my thesis on the period and was fortunately able to draw on Amelia Lizzie Lambert's private archive - her nephew Edward Carson kept her fully abreast of developments as they happened.
0 -
He made a definitive statement which is material to investors. I've never looked at the rules in that context but I'd be surprised if it wasn't caught (and he would have had legal advice)FF43 said:
I don't think predictions of how other regulators might regulate counts as market abuse. Just as well for Mr Walsh, I suggest.Charles said:
The difference being Walsh is guilty of market abuse if he misleads investors. For instance he said the US will sign an Open Skies agreement "one second after midnight". He wouldn't have said that without being sureFF43 said:
It's a variation on the "Of course there will be a deal - the Germans want to sell us their cars."Charles said:Willie Walsh went on the record a couple of weeks ago saying planes will still fly
Mr Walsh is probably correct. It is why we will probably sign up to the Article 50 deal on the EU's terms. There is a deal available to us (in outline). It's mostly workable and the unworkable bits I am sure can be sorted out. It does however go against the Brexit rhetoric, which is why people talk about walking away. Maintaining Brexit delusions isn't an EU objective. Actually it's important from their position to knock any such delusions firmly on the head to shore up the integrity of their organisation.0 -
The abuse is to knowingly mislead.FF43 said:
I don't think predictions of how other regulators might regulate counts as market abuse. Just as well for Mr Walsh, I suggest.Charles said:
The difference being Walsh is guilty of market abuse if he misleads investors. For instance he said the US will sign an Open Skies agreement "one second after midnight". He wouldn't have said that without being sureFF43 said:
It's a variation on the "Of course there will be a deal - the Germans want to sell us their cars."Charles said:Willie Walsh went on the record a couple of weeks ago saying planes will still fly
Mr Walsh is probably correct. It is why we will probably sign up to the Article 50 deal on the EU's terms. There is a deal available to us (in outline). It's mostly workable and the unworkable bits I am sure can be sorted out. It does however go against the Brexit rhetoric, which is why people talk about walking away. Maintaining Brexit delusions isn't an EU objective. Actually it's important from their position to knock any such delusions firmly on the head to shore up the integrity of their organisation.0 -
NEW THREAD
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Who was Edward Carson but the first de facto leader of the Ulster Unionists.Charles said:
Bullocks.HYUFD said:
No that is not the solution, the whole reason NI was established in the first place was because of violence by Ulster Unionists at the threat of being placed in the newly established Irish Free State. The British clearly could not go on ruling southern, Catholic Ireland given the increasingly violent turn Irish nationalism was taking in opposition to that but neither could NI be placed in the Republic without violence inevitably resulting.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.
It was because a majority of votes in the 6 counties were to remain part of the UK.
It's the UK belief in self-determination that means we have Northern Ireland not Ulster.
(I wrote my thesis on the period and was fortunately able to draw on Amelia Lizzie Lambert's private archive - her nephew Edward Carson kept her fully abreast of developments as they happened.
As he famously said 'Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right'0 -
Dumblebot (AlBeeb) called BrExit after Luton* came in: You are not the best judge. Maybe, one-day, your circus will travel.Theuniondivvie said:Plenty of immigrants in Glasgow, a more mixed demography than many of those Brexit voting areas that deluded themselves that they were getting 'swamped'. It's one of the many things that the Union Flag waving Nazi-saluters in our city get exercised about.
* 56% leave; 44% remain: UKIP (2015) was a Muslim. Lots of Poles (but they did not have the vote). Please retract.0 -
Well Carson was the one threatening violence, so HYUFD is correct.Charles said:
Bullocks.HYUFD said:
No that is not the solution, the whole reason NI was established in the first place was because of violence by Ulster Unionists at the threat of being placed in the newly established Irish Free State. The British clearly could not go on ruling southern, Catholic Ireland given the increasingly violent turn Irish nationalism was taking in opposition to that but neither could NI be placed in the Republic without violence inevitably resulting.daodao said:
The solution is a 32 county Irish Republic.OchEye said:
And have Queen Elizbeth as their monarch and accept rule from Westminster, Er! Somehow, I don't think that will ever happen....David_Evershed said:SandyRentool said:
In fact there are two simple solutions that would remove the international frontier. However, the Republic rejoining the UK is even less likely than NI joining the Republic.Scott_P said:
There is one obvious and simple solution that probably has a majority in Parliament, but nobody will propose it (yet)AlastairMeeks said:That said, I'm not sure there's a solution to the Irish border that can get through Parliament.
I suppose simple solution number three is the Republic triggering Article 50...
The Irish Republic should leave the EU and revert to Sterling from the Euro. Problem solved.
This was clear to me on 24/6/16.
It was because a majority of votes in the 6 counties were to remain part of the UK.
It's the UK belief in self-determination that means we have Northern Ireland not Ulster.
(I wrote my thesis on the period and was fortunately able to draw on Amelia Lizzie Lambert's private archive - her nephew Edward Carson kept her fully abreast of developments as they happened.
"Brown examines why Carson's role in 1914 made him a highly controversial figure:
"But his commitment was unqualified, both to Ulster unionism and to its increasing extremism. Under Carson's leadership, with Craig as his lieutenant, discipline and organization were imposed on their supporters; proposed compromises were rejected; and plans were drawn up for a provisional government in the north, if the bill was passed, with its implementation to be resisted by the paramilitary Ulster Volunteer Force, which had been armed by illegal gun-running. It is this apparent willingness to carry resistance to virtually any length, even to risk civil war, that makes Carson so controversial."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Carson0 -
So we're going to be putting the five Sentinels[1], the three Airseekers[1] and the six remaining Sentrys[1] aircraft patrolling a border a good Land Rover can cover in a day.Rebourne_Fluffy said:We have 5 newish Sentinel ISTR planes looking for a role in a future RAF. Add in the AirSeekers and remaining 6 (?) of the Seven-Dwarves then electronic CAP (Compliance Accross Protocols) can maintain training and governance along the Intra-Irish border and the Irish Sea.
Soon we will have the tysons* - Certifiable Predators - so they can loiter around as-well. By 2020 we will be able to comfortably observe the North/South border.
* tyson: You are not a 'Predator' but you really should be 'Certified'.
Pause.
Well it would work, I'll give you that...
Notes.
====
Following the collapse of the Nimrod upgrade program the RAF was left with little airborne reconnaisance, early warning and battlefield control. Since 2010 the various Conservative administrations filled this gap by buying off-the-shelf hardware or easily-adaptable aircraft. The Sentinel is a militarised bizjet filled with tech made by Raytheon, the Airseekers are militarized Boeing 707s which we bought from the USAF and further upgraded into RC-135W Rivet Joints, and the Sentry is a militarized Boeing 707 with a big rotating piedish above it, which we've had for donkey's years now. The seven dwarfs is because there were originally seven in RAF service and were named after them, but Sneezy (ZH105) was decommissioned. The Reaper is a Predator upgraded to MQ9A, and is a drone aircraft with missiles hanging off it. It's not your Xmas present drone, it's longer than three Mondeos and it can seriously fuck up your day.
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This discussion has been closed.