politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » TMay drops to new ratings low & comes under fire for not meeti

Scrapheap_as_was said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Scrapheap_as_was said:

TOPPING said:

Any violence on the streets would be Lab snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Then again, knowing Tezza's luck...

She could use Boris' water cannon at last?

Fnarr, fnarr.

I set 'em up.

And I don't miss them like Roberto Soldado.

rottenborough said:

JosiasJessop said:

If there was another snap election in the next month or so, who would lead the Lib Dems into it? Is Farron still technically leader, or is there an interim acting leader before a leadership election?

iirc Vince is going to be interim.

Tim remains leader until 20th July.

https://order-order.com/2017/06/15/labour-call-for-properties-owned-by-rich-to-be-requisitioned/

The tip of the iceberg if Corbyn ever becomes PM. Terrifying.

Tykejohnno said:

If this one million march does go ahead and we see riots or shops trashed,what will this do for Corbyn's cred in the eye's of the british public ?

Probably enhance it.

One of the more interesting rumours I've heard floating about on Twitter this afternoon is that a lot of the flats were illegally sub-let with far more people living in them than there should have been.

That tower was 20 floors with a total of 10 bedrooms on each floor, for a supposed capacity of 600, which would mean 3 people to every bedroom.

It's useless to speculate how many people there actually were at this point, but I'll give you two personal anecdotes.

Firstly, in my late 20s, I lived alone in a small one bed converted terrace flat. The flat directly above me had eight people living in it.

Secondly, when I was looking to buy, I looked at a flat in a very similar tower block in Zone 1 because it looked like an incredible steal in terms of square feet / location if you were prepared to live in an ex council block.

When an estate agent took me round, the flat I was viewing was wall to wall with mattresses in the living room and bedroom and there were six people in the one bed flat _at the time_, including a baby in a crib. When I asked the estate agent, they said that this was absolutely normal, that they saw this kind of thing all the time. I actually went home and cried after seeing that place, the conditions people were living in. I was mortified that people were living in those kinds of conditions in the UK.

Big scandal may be incoming, depending on the numbers of bodies recovered.

midwinter said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

midwinter said:

SouthamObserver said:

midwinter said:

SouthamObserver said:

Morris_Dancer said:

On McDonnell and the march (replies suggest he didn't actually say 'force'):
https://twitter.com/Paul1Singh/status/875328886841761792

McDonnell does not believe change will be secured through Parliament. He believes it can only happen from the streets.

Why would they risk all they've achieved in the last couple of months?
Like any sane person I'm horrified by the fire but encouraging some sort of insurrection is just going to confirm the worst fears of people wrt to Corbyn/McDonell. Particularly out of London.

McDonnell is really not that interested in Labour's seat count except to the extent it gives the far left control within Labour. He is the most extreme of the gang.

Ok thanks. Come back Cameron and rescue us from the lunatics and incompetents. Asap

Cameron was one of the incompetents. His arrogance never, for one minute, let him consider he might not have the support of the public.

You can say that till your blue in the face, and we know your views on him are jaundiced due to Europe, but at the moment he's looking like a political colossus in comparison to the morons scrapping it out.

That is no comparison. The fact that this bunch of incompetents are slightly more useless than the last bunch of incompetents really isn't a recommendation.

Morris_Dancer said:

On McDonnell and the march (replies suggest he didn't actually say 'force'):
https://twitter.com/Paul1Singh/status/875328886841761792

UK does not currently have a legally elected government.

People are already putting out "The Truth"-type spin about the evil residents causing the fire deaths.

I sense terrible echoes of Hillsborough.

Jason said:

Tykejohnno said:

If this one million march does go ahead and we see riots or shops trashed,what will this do for Corbyn's cred in the eye's of the british public ?

Probably enhance it.

Not with the 13.6 million who voted Tory who Corbyn needs to make inroads into to win next time

kyf_100 said:

One of the more interesting rumours I've heard floating about on Twitter this afternoon is that a lot of the flats were illegally sub-let with far more people living in them than there should have been.

That tower was 20 floors with a total of 10 bedrooms on each floor, for a supposed capacity of 600, which would mean 3 people to every bedroom.

It's useless to speculate how many people there actually were at this point, but I'll give you two personal anecdotes.

Firstly, in my late 20s, I lived alone in a small one bed converted terrace flat. The flat directly above me had eight people living in it.

Secondly, when I was looking to buy, I looked at a flat in a very similar tower block in Zone 1 because it looked like an incredible steal in terms of square feet / location if you were prepared to live in an ex council block.

When an estate agent took me round, the flat I was viewing was wall to wall with mattresses in the living room and bedroom and there were six people in the one bed flat _at the time_, including a baby in a crib. When I asked the estate agent, they said that this was absolutely normal, that they saw this kind of thing all the time. I actually went home and cried after seeing that place, the conditions people were living in. I was mortified that people were living in those kinds of conditions in the UK.

Big scandal may be incoming, depending on the numbers of bodies recovered.

The abuses you describe are commonplace and well-known to the authorities. I suspect Khan will find it politically impossible to address the problem.

kyf_100 said:

One of the more interesting rumours I've heard floating about on Twitter this afternoon is that a lot of the flats were illegally sub-let with far more people living in them than there should have been.

That tower was 20 floors with a total of 10 bedrooms on each floor, for a supposed capacity of 600, which would mean 3 people to every bedroom.

It's useless to speculate how many people there actually were at this point, but I'll give you two personal anecdotes.

Firstly, in my late 20s, I lived alone in a small one bed converted terrace flat. The flat directly above me had eight people living in it.

Secondly, when I was looking to buy, I looked at a flat in a very similar tower block in Zone 1 because it looked like an incredible steal in terms of square feet / location if you were prepared to live in an ex council block.

When an estate agent took me round, the flat I was viewing was wall to wall with mattresses in the living room and bedroom and there were six people in the one bed flat _at the time_, including a baby in a crib. When I asked the estate agent, they said that this was absolutely normal, that they saw this kind of thing all the time. I actually went home and cried after seeing that place, the conditions people were living in. I was mortified that people were living in those kinds of conditions in the UK.

Big scandal may be incoming, depending on the numbers of bodies recovered.

I have a relative that works relatively high up in a London Borough. One of his big focuses is on locating 'beds in sheds' which is exactly what it sounds like. Apparently it's absolutely rampant. I would not be surprised to see many more than the 3 per bedroom estimated.

RobD said:

EPG said:

Morris_Dancer said:

On McDonnell and the march (replies suggest he didn't actually say 'force'):
https://twitter.com/Paul1Singh/status/875328886841761792

UK does not currently have a legally elected government.

People are already putting out "The Truth"-type spin about the evil residents causing the fire deaths.

I sense terrible echoes of Hillsborough.

Last time I checked the UK still had a government.

I'm glad you checked .... there's a nasty rumour going round that's its gone AWOL.

Sky News reporting the DUP will support the Queen's Speech but the supply aspect of the C&S is yet to be agreed.

At least the fascist scum of the labour leadership have exposed themselves over this. Small mercies

RobD said:

JackW said:

RobD said:

EPG said:

Morris_Dancer said:

On McDonnell and the march (replies suggest he didn't actually say 'force'):
https://twitter.com/Paul1Singh/status/875328886841761792

UK does not currently have a legally elected government.

People are already putting out "The Truth"-type spin about the evil residents causing the fire deaths.

I sense terrible echoes of Hillsborough.

Last time I checked the UK still had a government.

I'm glad you checked .... there's a nasty rumour going round that's its gone AWOL.

What's all this nonsense about the government being "legally elected" anyway. It's appointed by HM.

Kindly don't spoil someones rant with facts.

noisywinter said:

At least the fascist scum of the labour leadership have exposed themselves over this. Small mercies

Kindly troll a little harder. This is PB not the comment section of the Daily Mail.

Thank you.

Cuts in legal aid being blamed as reason for residents have not taken on landlords over failures. Virtual ending of legal aid due to austerity - interesting to see if this develops

another_richard said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

She's awful. Clearly the latest software patch hasn't worked and we've got an even worse Maybot.

Bring back the posh boys.

I take it you are therefore endorsing the old Etonian Boris over the comprehensive educated Hammond and the grammar school educated Davis?

Boris isn't posh, he went to Eton on a King's Scholarship.

That makes Boris a fecking pleb.

Boris went to the same school as Ed Miliband - makes him posh in my eyes.

If ever evidence were needed that going to the right school doesn't make you posh in the sense of an officer and a gentleman Boris is exhibit A.

While Osborne was supporting his leader with all the power and resources at his disposal Boris was stabbing him in the back. Boris's treachery was rewarded by being made foreign secretary. Someone 'posh' would have been too honourable to accept.

May of course was worse but she never pretended to be anything other than a shabby vulgarian as her method of disposing of the loyal Osborne showed.

As an aside one of my associattes tried to tell me that no deal is better than a bad deal meant that no deal implied we were staying in the EU. Has anybody else heard such stupidity?

Here's a scenario:
QS is just Brexit and financial matters, DUP and Lib Dems abstain, passes.
Lib Dems elect Jo Swinson as deputy leader on 27th June
May resigns and Hammond is elected unopposed as Con leader and PM.
Juncker, Verhofstadt, Macron, the PMs of Luxembourg,Slovenia, The Netherlands, and Estonia, and the European Commissioners for Trade and Justice call for a cross party British negotiating team . As they are all members of ALDE this means a Lib Dem presence is mandatory.
Vince Cable is elected as Lib Dem leader - he worked with Macron during 2014-15
The talks with the EU go well and a provisional deal is announced but with a long transitional period set out.
In 2019, having strengthened their position through by-elections, the Lib Dems elect Jo Swinson as leader and agree to enter a coalition. The next 2 years see an economic boom, GB dominates the Olympic medal table and England win the World Cup.
There is a coupon election is 2022 and the Coalition wins in a landslide.
Any problems with that?

slade said:

Here's a scenario:
QS is just Brexit and financial matters, DUP and Lib Dems abstain, passes.
Lib Dems elect Jo Swinson as deputy leader on 27th June
May resigns and Hammond is elected unopposed as Con leader and PM.
Juncker, Verhofstadt, Macron, the PMs of Luxembourg,Slovenia, The Netherlands, and Estonia, and the European Commissioners for Trade and Justice call for a cross party British negotiating team . As they are all members of ALDE this means a Lib Dem presence is mandatory.
Vince Cable is elected as Lib Dem leader - he worked with Macron during 2014-15
The talks with the EU go well and a provisional deal is announced but with a long transitional period set out.
In 2019, having strengthened their position through by-elections, the Lib Dems elect Jo Swinson as leader and agree to enter a coalition. The next 2 years see an economic boom, GB dominates the Olympic medal table and England win the World Cup.
There is a coupon election is 2022 and the Coalition wins in a landslide.
Any problems with that?

Yeah, we ain't going to win the World Cup.

Jason said:

kyf_100 said:

One of the more interesting rumours I've heard floating about on Twitter this afternoon is that a lot of the flats were illegally sub-let with far more people living in them than there should have been.

That tower was 20 floors with a total of 10 bedrooms on each floor, for a supposed capacity of 600, which would mean 3 people to every bedroom.

It's useless to speculate how many people there actually were at this point, but I'll give you two personal anecdotes.

Firstly, in my late 20s, I lived alone in a small one bed converted terrace flat. The flat directly above me had eight people living in it.

Secondly, when I was looking to buy, I looked at a flat in a very similar tower block in Zone 1 because it looked like an incredible steal in terms of square feet / location if you were prepared to live in an ex council block.

When an estate agent took me round, the flat I was viewing was wall to wall with mattresses in the living room and bedroom and there were six people in the one bed flat _at the time_, including a baby in a crib. When I asked the estate agent, they said that this was absolutely normal, that they saw this kind of thing all the time. I actually went home and cried after seeing that place, the conditions people were living in. I was mortified that people were living in those kinds of conditions in the UK.

Big scandal may be incoming, depending on the numbers of bodies recovered.

Sub letting is very common in London, and indeed in Birmingham. It's a civil affair, and therefore nothing gets done about over crowding.

Something like this will concentrate minds for a week or two, everyone will wring their hands, it will slowly but surely be forgotten about, and precisely nothing will change.

But in relation to loss of lives is it relevant unless its a contributing factor to the tragedy

Roger said:

another_richard said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

She's awful. Clearly the latest software patch hasn't worked and we've got an even worse Maybot.

Bring back the posh boys.

I take it you are therefore endorsing the old Etonian Boris over the comprehensive educated Hammond and the grammar school educated Davis?

Boris isn't posh, he went to Eton on a King's Scholarship.

That makes Boris a fecking pleb.

Boris went to the same school as Ed Miliband - makes him posh in my eyes.

If ever evidence were needed that going to the right school doesn't make you posh in the sense of an officer and a gentleman Boris is exhibit A.

While Osborne was supporting his leader with all the power and resources at his disposal Boris was stabbing him in the back. Boris's treachery was rewarded by being made foreign secretary. Someone 'posh' would have been too honourable to accept.

May of course was worse but she never pretended to be anything other than a shabby vulgarian as her method of disposing of the loyal Osborne showed.

Osborne has been anything but loyal since, unlike it is fair to say Cameron

noisywinter said:

JackW said:

noisywinter said:

At least the fascist scum of the labour leadership have exposed themselves over this. Small mercies

Kindly troll a little harder. This is PB not the comment section of the Daily Mail.

Thank you.

Uhuh...as it goes 95% of my limited posts on here, a political betting site, have been betting related

But please...enjoy that self righteous feeling

Thank you, I will.

I also do a wonderful line in noble condescension but you're barely worth the time of such a distinguished PBer of peerless ancestry as myself.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Typo said:

Doesn't look like Sadiq will be able to shield himself from the deserved onslaught that is heading in the direction of each and every authority. Has he initiated anything to tackle it even examine the deficiencies of London's tower blocks since be took office?

Would he even know? Has he initiated anything to examine the possibility of fires on the underground? Of a plane crashing on London? Of a bridge collapsing over the Thames?

There are so many ways in which things can go wrong but which one would assume are planned for and protected against. Should an incoming mayor assume that every one before him has been criminally negligent and should instigate examinations and investigations into every aspect of our daily lives?

I am afraid people here are trying to use this tragedy to take cheap shots at whichever politician they happen to dislike.

Quite right. An unpleasant and cheap shot by Typo

grabcocque said:

Theresa May is a joke. How did you allow this to happen, Tories?

Presume you were too busy letting the poor burn?

The day she became PM, she stood on Downing Street and gave a 'one nation' Tory speech, which impressed many. Feels like 100 years ago now.

She's been an unmitigated disaster, but they might be stuck with her for the foreseeable future.

slade said:

.....and England win the World Cup.

I was following you until here, but suspension of disbelief doesn't allow for the impossible.

JosiasJessop said:

Pong said:

In addition to my suggestion of bolloxing 5% of the greenbelt, maybe it's time for the govt to borrow a trillion quid at 0% and build 5 new Milton Keyneses over the next decade.

Spur them off hs 1/2, or something, subsidize season tickets, wire in terabit internet and give tax breaks for companies relocating staff from london.

They'll be soulless at first but economically successful over time.

Just do it.

Screw the NIMBYs.

2k/month for a flat in that tower block is insane. The housing market is dysfunctional and fuelling social unrest. It's a pressure cooker. Release the valve.

The Greenfell Tower shows the problems with such talk. We want housing that is:

*) Affordable
*) Environmentally sound
*) Safe
*) High quality, e.g. on finish
*) Roomy
*) Quick to build

Many of these requirements are mutually exclusive, especially wrt cost. Frankly, if we want to build a many houses as some people say at an affordable cost, then something has to give. It cannot be safety, so will we be building small, boxy houses that aren't environmentally sound?

And that's just the houses themselves, without considering all the other infrastructure that should go with them.

Yet another tiresome rehearsal of the "the people want the moon on a stick" argument. They don't have trouble doing this stuff in Germany. Where is our national ambition? We're talking about houses here, not rocketships to Mars.

midwinter said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

midwinter said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

midwinter said:

SouthamObserver said:

midwinter said:

SouthamObserver said:

Morris_Dancer said:

On McDonnell and the march (replies suggest he didn't actually say 'force'):
https://twitter.com/Paul1Singh/status/875328886841761792

McDonnell does not believe change will be secured through Parliament. He believes it can only happen from the streets.

Why would they risk all they've achieved in the last couple of months?
Like any sane person I'm horrified by the fire but encouraging some sort of insurrection is just going to confirm the worst fears of people wrt to Corbyn/McDonell. Particularly out of London.

McDonnell is really not that interested in Labour's seat count except to the extent it gives the far left control within Labour. He is the most extreme of the gang.

Ok thanks. Come back Cameron and rescue us from the lunatics and incompetents. Asap

Cameron was one of the incompetents. His arrogance never, for one minute, let him consider he might not have the support of the public.

You can say that till your blue in the face, and we know your views on him are jaundiced due to Europe, but at the moment he's looking like a political colossus in comparison to the morons scrapping it out.

That is no comparison. The fact that this bunch of incompetents are slightly more useless than the last bunch of incompetents really isn't a recommendation.

Of course it is a comparison. I'd imagine a sizable amout of the electorate would favour a return to the coalition years rather than having a Marxist scarecrow duelling with an apparently borderline autistic village fete volunteer in a race to the bottom.

It's a shame we'll never know how well a Tory government with a majority and a decent leader might have done, but hey, we've got Brexit. History will judge whether the ends justified the means. Currently it's looking like a Pyrrhic victory for the Tory Brexiteers at least.

We haven't had either for many years, of course. Maybe Maggie in 1983. Not that I liked what she did.

I miss Uncle Harold!

slade said:

Here's a scenario:
QS is just Brexit and financial matters, DUP and Lib Dems abstain, passes.
Lib Dems elect Jo Swinson as deputy leader on 27th June
May resigns and Hammond is elected unopposed as Con leader and PM.
Juncker, Verhofstadt, Macron, the PMs of Luxembourg,Slovenia, The Netherlands, and Estonia, and the European Commissioners for Trade and Justice call for a cross party British negotiating team . As they are all members of ALDE this means a Lib Dem presence is mandatory.
Vince Cable is elected as Lib Dem leader - he worked with Macron during 2014-15
The talks with the EU go well and a provisional deal is announced but with a long transitional period set out.
In 2019, having strengthened their position through by-elections, the Lib Dems elect Jo Swinson as leader and agree to enter a coalition. The next 2 years see an economic boom, GB dominates the Olympic medal table and England win the World Cup.
There is a coupon election is 2022 and the Coalition wins in a landslide.
Any problems with that?

For a start we're a lot more likely to see a recession than an economic boom.

Seems most everyone is very worried about the mess we are all in.

I do not think this worry automatically transfers to a Corbyn led government especially if the left become involved in mass demonstrations

If as seems likely the Queens Speech goes through and is generally accepted then the government will survive and I would expect a new conservative leader by September

JackW said:

slade said:

Here's a scenario:
QS is just Brexit and financial matters, DUP and Lib Dems abstain, passes.
Lib Dems elect Jo Swinson as deputy leader on 27th June
May resigns and Hammond is elected unopposed as Con leader and PM.
Juncker, Verhofstadt, Macron, the PMs of Luxembourg,Slovenia, The Netherlands, and Estonia, and the European Commissioners for Trade and Justice call for a cross party British negotiating team . As they are all members of ALDE this means a Lib Dem presence is mandatory.
Vince Cable is elected as Lib Dem leader - he worked with Macron during 2014-15
The talks with the EU go well and a provisional deal is announced but with a long transitional period set out.
In 2019, having strengthened their position through by-elections, the Lib Dems elect Jo Swinson as leader and agree to enter a coalition. The next 2 years see an economic boom, GB dominates the Olympic medal table and England win the World Cup.
There is a coupon election is 2022 and the Coalition wins in a landslide.
Any problems with that?

You forgot to preface with :

Once upon a time ....

LibDems are in favour of legalising safe hallucinogenics of course!

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Seems most everyone is very worried about the mess we are all in.

I do not think this worry automatically transfers to a Corbyn led government especially if the left become involved in mass demonstrations

If as seems likely the Queens Speech goes through and is generally accepted then the government will survive and I would expect a new conservative leader by September

Thank goodness for the Fixed Term Parliament Act... and the yellow peril for it.

It's the only form of stability we have to hold on to.

saddo said:

Thank F Corbyn didn't win. The economy would already be in death spiral.

If the Labour Party has any sensible people left in it, and there don't seem to be many willing to show their faces right now, they will still be plotting to get rid of Corbyn. They owe it to the country as much as anything else.

This picture is incredible:

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/7b381805a81839374a718e3b890c4b03044e7468/0_0_2583_1550/master/2583.jpg?w=620&q=20&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&dpr=2&s=7044dac102e97ee3758da5a82662b474

Obviously cherry-picked photos, etc., but it does a great job of summing up the optics of the two leaders' visits.

another_richard said:

Roger said:

another_richard said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

She's awful. Clearly the latest software patch hasn't worked and we've got an even worse Maybot.

Bring back the posh boys.

I take it you are therefore endorsing the old Etonian Boris over the comprehensive educated Hammond and the grammar school educated Davis?

Boris isn't posh, he went to Eton on a King's Scholarship.

That makes Boris a fecking pleb.

Boris went to the same school as Ed Miliband - makes him posh in my eyes.

If ever evidence were needed that going to the right school doesn't make you posh in the sense of an officer and a gentleman Boris is exhibit A.

While Osborne was supporting his leader with all the power and resources at his disposal Boris was stabbing him in the back. Boris's treachery was rewarded by being made foreign secretary. Someone 'posh' would have been too honourable to accept.

May of course was worse but she never pretended to be anything other than a shabby vulgarian as her method of disposing of the loyal Osborne showed.

You seem to have forgotten that it was a free vote.

That doesn't make his choices any less disloyal. He knew if Cameron lost he would be gone.

As it happens there is ample evidence his choice was motivated by personal ambition.

atia2 said:

JosiasJessop said:

Pong said:

In addition to my suggestion of bolloxing 5% of the greenbelt, maybe it's time for the govt to borrow a trillion quid at 0% and build 5 new Milton Keyneses over the next decade.

Spur them off hs 1/2, or something, subsidize season tickets, wire in terabit internet and give tax breaks for companies relocating staff from london.

They'll be soulless at first but economically successful over time.

Just do it.

Screw the NIMBYs.

2k/month for a flat in that tower block is insane. The housing market is dysfunctional and fuelling social unrest. It's a pressure cooker. Release the valve.

The Greenfell Tower shows the problems with such talk. We want housing that is:

*) Affordable
*) Environmentally sound
*) Safe
*) High quality, e.g. on finish
*) Roomy
*) Quick to build

Many of these requirements are mutually exclusive, especially wrt cost. Frankly, if we want to build a many houses as some people say at an affordable cost, then something has to give. It cannot be safety, so will we be building small, boxy houses that aren't environmentally sound?

And that's just the houses themselves, without considering all the other infrastructure that should go with them.

Yet another tiresome rehearsal of the "the people want the moon on a stick" argument. They don't have trouble doing this stuff in Germany. Where is our national ambition? We're talking about houses here, not rocketships to Mars.

Germany has a much lower population density, which of course means a lot lower cost of land.
Also their home ownership rate is a lot lower;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

The rate of people living in flats is also much higher IIRC, we prefer to live in houses here.

Roger said:

another_richard said:

Roger said:

another_richard said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

She's awful. Clearly the latest software patch hasn't worked and we've got an even worse Maybot.

Bring back the posh boys.

I take it you are therefore endorsing the old Etonian Boris over the comprehensive educated Hammond and the grammar school educated Davis?

Boris isn't posh, he went to Eton on a King's Scholarship.

That makes Boris a fecking pleb.

Boris went to the same school as Ed Miliband - makes him posh in my eyes.

If ever evidence were needed that going to the right school doesn't make you posh in the sense of an officer and a gentleman Boris is exhibit A.

While Osborne was supporting his leader with all the power and resources at his disposal Boris was stabbing him in the back. Boris's treachery was rewarded by being made foreign secretary. Someone 'posh' would have been too honourable to accept.

May of course was worse but she never pretended to be anything other than a shabby vulgarian as her method of disposing of the loyal Osborne showed.

You seem to have forgotten that it was a free vote.

That doesn't make his choices any less disloyal. He knew if Cameron lost he would be gone.

As it happens there is ample evidence his choice was motivated by personal ambition.

I wasn't aware that Boris swore an oath of ever lasting loyalty to David Cameron.

And I'm shocked to discover that a politician was motivated by personal ambition.

kyf_100 said:

nichomar said:

Jason said:

Sub letting is very common in London, and indeed in Birmingham. It's a civil affair, and therefore nothing gets done about over crowding.

Something like this will concentrate minds for a week or two, everyone will wring their hands, it will slowly but surely be forgotten about, and precisely nothing will change.

But in relation to loss of lives is it relevant unless its a contributing factor to the tragedy

It potentially raises the death toll a long way north of 20. It could add an easy 30 people onto the body count, if nobody on the top 3 floors survived.

The narrative then becomes poorest in society lived in squalor, forgotten by successive governments, and left to burn while the rich sipped champagne in £1m+ houses 500 yards down the road.

There is a chance that this tragedy will shine a light on the appalling living conditions which many in London endure on a day to day basis.

If the final death toll is 17 for a block of flats that potentially contained a thousand or more people in cramped conditions, we should thank our lucky stars. I'm inclined to think it may be a lot worse. Let's imagine for a horrible, sickening second that the recovery teams come across just one or two 1 bed flats with the bodies of 8-10 people including children crammed in them.

The question then isn't "how did so many people die?" it's how and why did we let them live like this in the first place.

I'm afraid you may be not thanking those lucky stars. It would frankly be astonishing if the death toll is under 100 given everything we know and the rate the fire took hold. The nation will wake to some very very grim news over the coming days. It's collective disbelief at the moment and anger and grief is being held in check by the official numbers not yet coming out. Barely.

kyf_100 said:

nichomar said:

Jason said:

Sub letting is very common in London, and indeed in Birmingham. It's a civil affair, and therefore nothing gets done about over crowding.

Something like this will concentrate minds for a week or two, everyone will wring their hands, it will slowly but surely be forgotten about, and precisely nothing will change.

But in relation to loss of lives is it relevant unless its a contributing factor to the tragedy

It potentially raises the death toll a long way north of 20. It could add an easy 30 people onto the body count, if nobody on the top 3 floors survived.

The narrative then becomes poorest in society lived in squalor, forgotten by successive governments, and left to burn while the rich sipped champagne in £1m+ houses 500 yards down the road.

There is a chance that this tragedy will shine a light on the appalling living conditions which many in London endure on a day to day basis.

If the final death toll is 17 for a block of flats that potentially contained a thousand or more people in cramped conditions, we should thank our lucky stars. I'm inclined to think it may be a lot worse. Let's imagine for a horrible, sickening second that the recovery teams come across just one or two 1 bed flats with the bodies of 8-10 people including children crammed in them.

The question then isn't "how did so many people die?" it's how and why did we let them live like this in the first place.

Thats an equally valid point building on my initial post that the issues of sub letting and abuse of same is only releant to the cause of the tragedy. If there were so many people in the flats that they couldnt escape then it may be valid but to question their right to be there is crass and inhuman

midwinter said:

HYUFD said:

Roger said:

another_richard said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

She's awful. Clearly the latest software patch hasn't worked and we've got an even worse Maybot.

Bring back the posh boys.

I take it you are therefore endorsing the old Etonian Boris over the comprehensive educated Hammond and the grammar school educated Davis?

Boris isn't posh, he went to Eton on a King's Scholarship.

That makes Boris a fecking pleb.

Boris went to the same school as Ed Miliband - makes him posh in my eyes.

If ever evidence were needed that going to the right school doesn't make you posh in the sense of an officer and a gentleman Boris is exhibit A.

While Osborne was supporting his leader with all the power and resources at his disposal Boris was stabbing him in the back. Boris's treachery was rewarded by being made foreign secretary. Someone 'posh' would have been too honourable to accept.

May of course was worse but she never pretended to be anything other than a shabby vulgarian as her method of disposing of the loyal Osborne showed.

Osborne has been anything but loyal since, unlike it is fair to say Cameron

Osborne has pointed out the failings of Mrs May as he should do in his new job.

Osborne was sticking the knife in on the sofas not just his paper, Cameron to be fair to him looked far more solemn the day after the election, has not criticised the PM at all and phoned defeated candidates who lost their seats, that is class

dyedwoolie said:

kyf_100 said:

nichomar said:

Jason said:

Sub letting is very common in London, and indeed in Birmingham. It's a civil affair, and therefore nothing gets done about over crowding.

Something like this will concentrate minds for a week or two, everyone will wring their hands, it will slowly but surely be forgotten about, and precisely nothing will change.

But in relation to loss of lives is it relevant unless its a contributing factor to the tragedy

It potentially raises the death toll a long way north of 20. It could add an easy 30 people onto the body count, if nobody on the top 3 floors survived.

The narrative then becomes poorest in society lived in squalor, forgotten by successive governments, and left to burn while the rich sipped champagne in £1m+ houses 500 yards down the road.

There is a chance that this tragedy will shine a light on the appalling living conditions which many in London endure on a day to day basis.

If the final death toll is 17 for a block of flats that potentially contained a thousand or more people in cramped conditions, we should thank our lucky stars. I'm inclined to think it may be a lot worse. Let's imagine for a horrible, sickening second that the recovery teams come across just one or two 1 bed flats with the bodies of 8-10 people including children crammed in them.

The question then isn't "how did so many people die?" it's how and why did we let them live like this in the first place.

I'm afraid you may be not thanking those lucky stars. It would frankly be astonishing if the death toll is under 100 given everything we know and the rate the fire took hold. The nation will wake to some very very grim news over the coming days. It's collective disbelief at the moment and anger and grief is being held in check by the official numbers not yet coming out. Barely.

I agree. I think 100+ is very likely. And that's why I think it could spill out into riots by this weekend.

With ten bedrooms to each floor, you would expect 60 dead on the top 3 floors even if half the people got out. Assume that people stayed put and that at least some of those flats contained at least ten people and it's a recipe for utter tragedy.

atia2 said:

JosiasJessop said:

Pong said:

In addition to my suggestion of bolloxing 5% of the greenbelt, maybe it's time for the govt to borrow a trillion quid at 0% and build 5 new Milton Keyneses over the next decade.

Spur them off hs 1/2, or something, subsidize season tickets, wire in terabit internet and give tax breaks for companies relocating staff from london.

They'll be soulless at first but economically successful over time.

Just do it.

Screw the NIMBYs.

2k/month for a flat in that tower block is insane. The housing market is dysfunctional and fuelling social unrest. It's a pressure cooker. Release the valve.

The Greenfell Tower shows the problems with such talk. We want housing that is:

*) Affordable
*) Environmentally sound
*) Safe
*) High quality, e.g. on finish
*) Roomy
*) Quick to build

Many of these requirements are mutually exclusive, especially wrt cost. Frankly, if we want to build a many houses as some people say at an affordable cost, then something has to give. It cannot be safety, so will we be building small, boxy houses that aren't environmentally sound?

And that's just the houses themselves, without considering all the other infrastructure that should go with them.

Yet another tiresome rehearsal of the "the people want the moon on a stick" argument. They don't have trouble doing this stuff in Germany. Where is our national ambition? We're talking about houses here, not rocketships to Mars.

The national hobby for the past 2 decades has been;

https://www.reddit.com/r/UKPersonalFinance/comments/6hegvv/property_are_there_any_potential_downsides_to_buy/

That is how people have got ahead in life. It's just raw exploitation by those with access to finance of those who don't, enabled and underwritten by governments of all stripes, cheered on by a rightwing press worshipping rentierism and legitimizing NIMBYism.

Now, an entire generation without parents with property wealth are truly f*cked.

As you say, there is no ambition.

The conservatives have too many sacred cows, as illustrated by May's u-turn.

theakes said:

May goes down, down, down, now be lucky to get 35% of the vote at the most.

Those 42% who voted Tory are not suddenly all going to switch to Corbyn and it will not be May leading the Tories at the next election which in any case is unlikely to be for years given both the SNP and the Tories will do anything to avoid one anytime soon

theakes said:

May goes down, down, down, now be lucky to get 35% of the vote at the most.

what was the smallest % vote share that Blair won a majority with....

atia2 said:

JosiasJessop said:

Pong said:

In addition to my suggestion of bolloxing 5% of the greenbelt, maybe it's time for the govt to borrow a trillion quid at 0% and build 5 new Milton Keyneses over the next decade.

Spur them off hs 1/2, or something, subsidize season tickets, wire in terabit internet and give tax breaks for companies relocating staff from london.

They'll be soulless at first but economically successful over time.

Just do it.

Screw the NIMBYs.

2k/month for a flat in that tower block is insane. The housing market is dysfunctional and fuelling social unrest. It's a pressure cooker. Release the valve.

The Greenfell Tower shows the problems with such talk. We want housing that is:

*) Affordable
*) Environmentally sound
*) Safe
*) High quality, e.g. on finish
*) Roomy
*) Quick to build

Many of these requirements are mutually exclusive, especially wrt cost. Frankly, if we want to build a many houses as some people say at an affordable cost, then something has to give. It cannot be safety, so will we be building small, boxy houses that aren't environmentally sound?

And that's just the houses themselves, without considering all the other infrastructure that should go with them.

Yet another tiresome rehearsal of the "the people want the moon on a stick" argument. They don't have trouble doing this stuff in Germany. Where is our national ambition? We're talking about houses here, not rocketships to Mars.

I'm sorry you find it tiresome. Do you actually care to address the points, or show where I'm wrong? If you're a regular reader, you'll know that I've been banging on about the *quality* of housing (and the needs to build related infrastructure) on here for years.

Germany is a different environment and culture. They have more space, more of a renting culture and AIUI far more people living in flats rather than the land-wasting detached-house-garage-and-garden that seems to be the British ideal.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Housing_statistics

theakes said:

May goes down, down, down, now be lucky to get 35% of the vote at the most.

Is this actually based on anything? Or just a random comment?

Scrapheap_as_was said:

theakes said:

May goes down, down, down, now be lucky to get 35% of the vote at the most.

what was the smallest % vote share that Blair won a majority with....

35.2% at GE2005

Why are the Tories keeping May? In their shock, they've gone soppy.

midwinter said:

HYUFD said:

midwinter said:

HYUFD said:

Roger said:

another_richard said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

She's awful. Clearly the latest software patch hasn't worked and we've got an even worse Maybot.

Bring back the posh boys.

I take it you are therefore endorsing the old Etonian Boris over the comprehensive educated Hammond and the grammar school educated Davis?

Boris isn't posh, he went to Eton on a King's Scholarship.

That makes Boris a fecking pleb.

Boris went to the same school as Ed Miliband - makes him posh in my eyes.

If ever evidence were needed that going to the right school doesn't make you posh in the sense of an officer and a gentleman Boris is exhibit A.

While Osborne was supporting his leader with all the power and resources at his disposal Boris was stabbing him in the back. Boris's treachery was rewarded by being made foreign secretary. Someone 'posh' would have been too honourable to accept.

May of course was worse but she never pretended to be anything other than a shabby vulgarian as her method of disposing of the loyal Osborne showed.

Osborne has been anything but loyal since, unlike it is fair to say Cameron

Osborne has pointed out the failings of Mrs May as he should do in his new job.

Osborne was sticking the knife in on the sofas not just his paper, Cameron to be fair to him looked far more solemn the day after the election, has not criticised the PM at all and phoned defeated candidates who lost their seats, that is class

Agree re Cameron. Wrt Osborne she brought it entirely on herself. No sympathy

Osborne has always been snide, including to Cabinet colleagues well before the referendum and his leaving the Cabinet, Cameron has always acted more like a leader

Jonathan said:

Why are the Tories keeping May? In their shock, they've gone soppy.

She won 42%, the highest voteshare the Tories have got since 1992, it was not as if she lost even if she did worse than expected. Plus even if there was a Tory leadership election she would still stay as PM