politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NEW Bonus PB/Polling Matters podcast: Reviewing the weekend’s
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NEW Bonus PB/Polling Matters podcast: Reviewing the weekend’s polls
On a bonus episode of the PB/Polling Matters podcast, Keiran is joined by Ben Walker from Britainelects.com to discuss the weekend’s polls as the campaign enters the final week.
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FPT
Iran just moved a few notches up my "must visit" list.SeanT said:
Yep. Here's another vid. They're really quite goodPulpstar said:
Showing that amount of ankle would be a lynching offense in Saudi would it not ?SeanT said:
It's stuff like this that gives me hope for IranNigelb said:
True. But Iran is not just the regime, and I think Sean is right about the medium/long term possibility of a more liberal society there.Cyclefree said:
Iran qua Persia: you may be right.SeanT said:Cyclefree said:
Iran funds terrorist groups. It imprisons our citizens for no good reason and has incited people here to kill someone for writing a book. Its propaganda arm, Press TV, is a disgrace. It propagates views about women, gays and Jews which are wholly incompatible with Western values in just the same way as the Saudi view is. Just because it is the enemy of the Saudis does not make it our friend.Cyan said:
It's about time a British government stood up to the Saudi dictatorship.Cyclefree said:We should stop all funding by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran and Pakistan (itself heavily funded/influenced by the Saudis) of schools, mosques, madrassas, university chairs etc in this country. Politicians who appear on their propaganda arms should be called out for such stupidly naive behaviour.
Why do you include Iran on your list?
If there is hope for longterm reform in Islam - an Enlightenment - my guess is that it will come from Iran, where, ironically and relatedly, the jihadist revolution first caught fire.
So we should keep our distance from Tehran, but not give up on them.
The only reason we should have any dealing with Saudi is because, if the royal family was toppled, it would almost certainly be replaced by something much much worse. ISIS with a trillion dollars.
The Iranian regime: no. It is not "less mysogynistic". One of the first decisions of the Iranian regime was to bring the age of consent down (to 9, I think.) It uses rape as a punishment in prisons.
Its values are revolting.
The west's no compromise attitude to the regime has only strengthened it over the years. One of the few foreign policy successes under Obama was nascent engagement - which is now being reversed.
https://twitter.com/OneBunchMan/status/869259649102606336
It's not the dour, hopeless theocracy we imagine; not entirely, anyway.
https://twitter.com/arminarefi/status/868727334588776448
I'd be even more impressed if they nailed Paranoid Android.0 -
FPT Re UK Sikhs not being as violent as UK Muslims...
Its more to do with numbers than intracacies of the religion. I said many times, once you get to 5-6% of the insurgent religion, trouble is inevitable. Looks like we are there
2001 2011
Christian 71.58% 59.49%
Muslim 2.71% 4.41%
Hindu 0.95% 1.32%
Sikh 0.57% 0.43%
Buddhist 0.26% 0.41%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom#Religion
Same pattern across Europe. Look at the 5-10% countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe0 -
The thing is this is happening on top universities campuses, not just in the "ghetto" with no jobs prospects, while the Sikhs, Hindus, Chinese kids are way more socially liberal than their parents would like them to be.MaxPB said:
Hindus and Sikhs don't live in a perpetual state of victim status blaming the rest of the world for our own failures. If we're unemployed it's our fault for not being sufficiently qualified and we'll go and get more qualifications or more experience, if girls aren't interested then we'll look at why that is.FrancisUrquhart said:
We don't have the Sikhs doing that though.Malmesbury said:
It's an old, old story - young, educated, modern... suddenly the world looks wrong. So back to the faith of your fathers. The radical re-mix version.FrancisUrquhart said:
That's the scary thing about the common profile of these people. They are 2nd / 3rd generation, often uni students, you would hope think this ain't bad compared to what parents tell me what life was like.MaxPB said:
It already has in some countries like Bosnia, but there is now Saudi funding pouring into Bosnia and Albania so things have started going backwards just like it did here. The younger Muslims are more radicalised than their parents ever were.Nigelb said:I think Sean's wrong about an Enlightenment, though. That's far more likely to take hold first in Europe's moslem communities.
Oliver Cromwell etc.
Muslim people and young men in particular want to blame the rest of the world for their own failings, it is easier than looking within for improvement. It makes them easy to radicalise by these hate preachers when the religion includes stuff about killing infidels and treating unbelievers like animals etc...
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This would be a God send for Labour ...
https://twitter.com/evanmcmurry/status/8713580015415951370 -
On today's main topic, I'm genuinely confused by the May apologists arguing that there's no problem with the drop in police numbers. Not something you can plausibly sell to the public, even if true. But of course it's not true: firearms officers are part of that drop in numbers and it's common sense (even if untrue) to realise that at some stage a cut in total force strength must mean a cut in any given specialism. It's also common sense (even if untrue) to recognise that fewer police = less community contact = less intelligence about possible threats. Overall trying to argue that cutting police numbers is a perfectly reasonable thing to do just comes across as insulting the electorate's intelligence.
On the other hand, the old script of "we'd like more police, we'd like to give our existing fantastic officers the best equipment and support but Labour spent all the money and we're still fixing it" worked pretty well. Why did Team May abandon that line?0 -
Perhaps. I don't know the answer, does anybody?isam said:FPT Re UK Sikhs not being as violent as UK Muslims...
Its more to do with numbers than intracacies of the religion. I said many times, once you get to 5-6% of the insurgent religion, trouble is inevitable. Looks like we are there
2001 2011
Christian 71.58% 59.49%
Muslim 2.71% 4.41%
Hindu 0.95% 1.32%
Sikh 0.57% 0.43%
Buddhist 0.26% 0.41%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom#Religion
Same pattern across Europe. Look at the 5-10% countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
I can only judge on the reports we get on the background of these terrorists and my experience from spending far too long on university campuses, that there is an issue and it isn't simply the kidz in the hood with no prospects.0 -
Bizarrely didn't May's approval numbers go up after he Trump hand holding?SouthamObserver said:This would be a God send for Labour ...
https://twitter.com/evanmcmurry/status/871358001541595137
I didn't understand her massive approval ratings (and said so at the time), but I don't understand Corbyn's massive rise either. They are both shit in my eyes, just one is shit and the other is shit and dangerous.0 -
Mr. Observer, presidential interference in UK politics is not welcome or acceptable.0
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Surprised you haven't been over...SeanT said:
A friend of mine visits iran regularly (he learned Farsi when he was in the SAS) and says there is a massive underground/alternative scene - youthful, vibrant, counter-cultural - across the country. And it is very slowly coming into the open. This ain't Saudi, or North Korea.Polruan said:FPT
Iran just moved a few notches up my "must visit" list.SeanT said:
Yep. Here's another vid. They're really quite goodPulpstar said:
Showing that amount of ankle would be a lynching offense in Saudi would it not ?SeanT said:
It's stuff like this that gives me hope for IranNigelb said:
True. But I policy successes under Obama was nascent engagement - which is now being reversed.Cyclefree said:
Iran qua Persia: you may be right.SeanT said:Cyclefree said:
Iran fundsay as the Saudi view is. Just because it is the enemy of the Saudis does not make it our friend.Cyan said:
It's about time a British government stood up to the Saudi dictatorship.Cyclefree said:We should stop all funding by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran and Pakistan (itself heavily funded/influenced by the Saudis) of schools, mosques, madrassas, university chairs etc in this country. Politicians who appear on their propaganda arms should be called out for such stupidly naive behaviour.
Why do you include Iran on your list?
If there is hope for longterm reform in Islam - an Enlightenment - my guess is that it will come from Iran, where, ironically and relatedly, the jihadist revolution first caught fire.
So we should keep our distance from Tehran, but not give up on them.
The only reason we should have any dealing with Saudi is because, if the royal family was toppled, it would almost certainly be replaced by something much much worse. ISIS with a trillion dollars.
The Iranian regime: no. It is not "less mysogynistic". One of the first decisions of the Iranian regime was to bring the age of consent down (to 9, I think.) It uses rape as a punishment in prisons.
Its values are revolting.
https://twitter.com/OneBunchMan/status/869259649102606336
It's not the dour, hopeless theocracy we imagine; not entirely, anyway.
https://twitter.com/arminarefi/status/868727334588776448
I'd be even more impressed if they nailed Paranoid Android.
There's also lots of drugs and lots of drinking, and sex parties in Tehran.0 -
@bbcquestiontime: Tonight's Question Time Leaders Special is making way for a @BBCNews special. #bbcqt will be rescheduled.0
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Labour 2017
https://order-order.com/2017/06/04/alastair-campbell-compares-brexiters-jihadists/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4569478/Leading-Corbyn-activist-terrorists-freedom-fighters.html
At least people like Southam can see the mess that Labour are in.
Others on here, sadly not.0 -
They never tell you the useful stuff in Lonely Planet, do they?SeanT said:
A friend of mine visits iran regularly (he learned Farsi when he was in the SAS) and says there is a massive underground/alternative scene - youthful, vibrant, counter-cultural - across the country. And it is very slowly coming into the open. This ain't Saudi, or North Korea.Polruan said:FPT
Iran just moved a few notches up my "must visit" list.SeanT said:
Yep. Here's another vid. They're really quite goodPulpstar said:
Showing that amount of ankle would be a lynching offense in Saudi would it not ?SeanT said:
It's stuff like this that gives me hope for IranNigelb said:
True. But I policy successes under Obama was nascent engagement - which is now being reversed.Cyclefree said:
Iran qua Persia: you may be right.SeanT said:Cyclefree said:
Iran fundsay as the Saudi view is. Just because it is the enemy of the Saudis does not make it our friend.Cyan said:
It's about time a British government stood up to the Saudi dictatorship.Cyclefree said:We should stop all funding by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran and Pakistan (itself heavily funded/influenced by the Saudis) of schools, mosques, madrassas, university chairs etc in this country. Politicians who appear on their propaganda arms should be called out for such stupidly naive behaviour.
Why do you include Iran on your list?
If there is hope for longterm reform in Islam - an Enlightenment - my guess is that it will come from Iran, where, ironically and relatedly, the jihadist revolution first caught fire.
So we should keep our distance from Tehran, but not give up on them.
The only reason we should have any dealing with Saudi is because, if the royal family was toppled, it would almost certainly be replaced by something much much worse. ISIS with a trillion dollars.
The Iranian regime: no. It is not "less mysogynistic". One of the first decisions of the Iranian regime was to bring the age of consent down (to 9, I think.) It uses rape as a punishment in prisons.
Its values are revolting.
https://twitter.com/OneBunchMan/status/869259649102606336
It's not the dour, hopeless theocracy we imagine; not entirely, anyway.
https://twitter.com/arminarefi/status/868727334588776448
I'd be even more impressed if they nailed Paranoid Android.
There's also lots of drugs and lots of drinking, and sex parties in Tehran.0 -
Stay classsy....isam said:twitter.com/guidofawkes/status/871358356472156161
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Sounds like he is feeling tired and emotionalisam said:ttps://twitter.com/guidofawkes/status/871358356472156161
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What happens if they get caught Sean?SeanT said:
A friend of mine visits iran regularly (he learned Farsi when he was in the SAS) and says there is a massive underground/alternative scene - youthful, vibrant, counter-cultural - across the country. And it is very slowly coming into the open. This ain't Saudi, or North Korea.Polruan said:FPT
Iran just moved a few notches up my "must visit" list.SeanT said:
Yep. Here's another vid. They're really quite goodPulpstar said:
Showing that amount of ankle would be a lynching offense in Saudi would it not ?SeanT said:
It's stuff like this that gives me hope for IranNigelb said:
True. But I policy successes under Obama was nascent engagement - which is now being reversed.Cyclefree said:
Iran qua Persia: you may be right.SeanT said:Cyclefree said:
Iran fundsay as the Saudi view is. Just because it is the enemy of the Saudis does not make it our friend.Cyan said:
It's about time a British government stood up to the Saudi dictatorship.Cyclefree said:We should stop all funding by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran and Pakistan (itself heavily funded/influenced by the Saudis) of schools, mosques, madrassas, university chairs etc in this country. Politicians who appear on their propaganda arms should be called out for such stupidly naive behaviour.
Why do you include Iran on your list?
If there is hope for longterm reform in Islam - an Enlightenment - my guess is that it will come from Iran, where, ironically and relatedly, the jihadist revolution first caught fire.
So we should keep our distance from Tehran, but not give up on them.
The only reason we should have any dealing with Saudi is because, if the royal family was toppled, it would almost certainly be replaced by something much much worse. ISIS with a trillion dollars.
The Iranian regime: no. It is not "less mysogynistic". One of the first decisions of the Iranian regime was to bring the age of consent down (to 9, I think.) It uses rape as a punishment in prisons.
Its values are revolting.
https://twitter.com/OneBunchMan/status/869259649102606336
It's not the dour, hopeless theocracy we imagine; not entirely, anyway.
https://twitter.com/arminarefi/status/868727334588776448
I'd be even more impressed if they nailed Paranoid Android.
There's also lots of drugs and lots of drinking, and sex parties in Tehran.
Being hung from a crane if you are gay or a drug dealer for starters.0 -
well, anyone with half a brain cell can see what the problem is - it's dealing with it that is harder.FrancisUrquhart said:
Perhaps. I don't know the answer, does anybody?isam said:FPT Re UK Sikhs not being as violent as UK Muslims...
Its more to do with numbers than intracacies of the religion. I said many times, once you get to 5-6% of the insurgent religion, trouble is inevitable. Looks like we are there
2001 2011
Christian 71.58% 59.49%
Muslim 2.71% 4.41%
Hindu 0.95% 1.32%
Sikh 0.57% 0.43%
Buddhist 0.26% 0.41%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom#Religion
Same pattern across Europe. Look at the 5-10% countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
I can only judge on the reports we get on the background of these terrorists and my experience from spending far too long on university campuses, that there is an issue and it isn't simply the kidz in the hood with no prospects.0 -
Just back from some low key local campaigning in Ilford, not much mention of last night specifically other than one elderly lady who said 'Enoch was right.' The general feeling seems to be May could either win comfortably a la 1987 or if it goes really badly it could be February 1974 and a hung parliament, much as the polls are showing, though nobody now expects the landslide that was possible a fortnight ago. If the worst did come to the worse and May had to go there was support for both Ruth Davidson and Priti Patel.
I think May's statement this morning though promising to tackle extremism head on struck the right tone0 -
So true! The right-wing press (some of it) is downright racist and xenophobic. F*ckers!!isam said:-2 -
Humans are primates, and in primate communities there has to be an alpha male. In the UK/Europe the alpha male was Christianity. As long as other religions were too small in number to mount an attack everything was ok. Now one is growing and beginning to want power, trouble is inevitableFrancisUrquhart said:
Perhaps. I don't know the answer, does anybody?isam said:FPT Re UK Sikhs not being as violent as UK Muslims...
Its more to do with numbers than intracacies of the religion. I said many times, once you get to 5-6% of the insurgent religion, trouble is inevitable. Looks like we are there
2001 2011
Christian 71.58% 59.49%
Muslim 2.71% 4.41%
Hindu 0.95% 1.32%
Sikh 0.57% 0.43%
Buddhist 0.26% 0.41%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom#Religion
Same pattern across Europe. Look at the 5-10% countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
I can only judge on the reports we get on the background of these terrorists and my experience from spending far too long on university campuses, that there is an issue and it isn't simply the kidz in the hood with no prospects.
"In understanding this matter, the beginning of wisdom is to grasp the law that in human societies power is never left unclaimed and unused. It does not blow about, like wastepaper on the streets, ownerless and inert. Men’s nature is not only, as Thucydides long ago asserted, to exert power where they have it; men cannot help themselves from exerting power where they have it, whether they want to or not. "
The secularists thought ceding Christianity's alpha male position would lead to power sharing... BIG mistake.
Same would apply if Islam was the Alpha male and Christianity started growing. That's why Islamic Republics don't allow it.
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LOL - yep - shit has to be the choice over shit, dangerous and deludedFrancisUrquhart said:
Bizarrely didn't May's approval numbers go up after he Trump hand holding?SouthamObserver said:This would be a God send for Labour ...
https://twitter.com/evanmcmurry/status/871358001541595137
I didn't understand her massive approval ratings (and said so at the time), but I don't understand Corbyn's massive rise either. They are both shit in my eyes, just one is shit and the other is shit and dangerous.0 -
I got some special bottles in for certain MPs going, but not for the result. Looks like now none will be getting drunk, instead I will be spending all Thursday wetting the bed.Floater said:
LOL - yep - shit has to be the choice over shit, dangerous and deludedFrancisUrquhart said:
Bizarrely didn't May's approval numbers go up after he Trump hand holding?SouthamObserver said:This would be a God send for Labour ...
https://twitter.com/evanmcmurry/status/871358001541595137
I didn't understand her massive approval ratings (and said so at the time), but I don't understand Corbyn's massive rise either. They are both shit in my eyes, just one is shit and the other is shit and dangerous.0 -
To after the election? It really needs to be tommorow to have any impact one way or the other. Tueday just about acceptable, Wednesday no pointScott_P said:@bbcquestiontime: Tonight's Question Time Leaders Special is making way for a @BBCNews special. #bbcqt will be rescheduled.
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Campbell proving the maxim about twitter.0
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Oh dear, is Mr Nasty back on the bottle?isam said:0 -
If there is to be a trip May will ensure it is next weekend and only announced on FridaySouthamObserver said:This would be a God send for Labour ...
https://twitter.com/evanmcmurry/status/8713580015415951370 -
Come on, you made that up, didn't you?SeanT said:
A friend of mine visits iran regularly (he learned Farsi when he was in the SAS) and says there is a massive underground/alternative scene - youthful, vibrant, counter-cultural - across the country. And it is very slowly coming into the open. This ain't Saudi, or North Korea.Polruan said:FPT
Iran just moved a few notches up my "must visit" list.SeanT said:
Yep. Here's another vid. They're really quite goodPulpstar said:
Showing that amount of ankle would be a lynching offense in Saudi would it not ?SeanT said:
It's stuff like this that gives me hope for IranNigelb said:
True. But I policy successes under Obama was nascent engagement - which is now being reversed.Cyclefree said:
Iran qua Persia: you may be right.SeanT said:Cyclefree said:
Iran fundsay as the Saudi view is. Just because it is the enemy of the Saudis does not make it our friend.Cyan said:
It's about time a British government stood up to the Saudi dictatorship.Cyclefree said:We should stop all funding by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran and Pakistan (itself heavily funded/influenced by the Saudis) of schools, mosques, madrassas, university chairs etc in this country. Politicians who appear on their propaganda arms should be called out for such stupidly naive behaviour.
Why do you include Iran on your list?
If there is hope for longterm reform in Islam - an Enlightenment - my guess is that it will come from Iran, where, ironically and relatedly, the jihadist revolution first caught fire.
So we should keep our distance from Tehran, but not give up on them.
The only reason we should have any dealing with Saudi is because, if the royal family was toppled, it would almost certainly be replaced by something much much worse. ISIS with a trillion dollars.
The Iranian regime: no. It is not "less mysogynistic". One of the first decisions of the Iranian regime was to bring the age of consent down (to 9, I think.) It uses rape as a punishment in prisons.
Its values are revolting.
https://twitter.com/OneBunchMan/status/869259649102606336
It's not the dour, hopeless theocracy we imagine; not entirely, anyway.
https://twitter.com/arminarefi/status/868727334588776448
I'd be even more impressed if they nailed Paranoid Android.
There's also lots of drugs and lots of drinking, and sex parties in Tehran.0 -
Even though I'm a Love Your Neighbour kind of guy, I do believe in "national character" and preservation of same. Most immigrants do too - people come here because it's a nice place with certain qualities and values and they don't want it to change. Witness the paradox of immigrant families becoming anti-immigration. So although govts should be respectful of people's rights of free speech, of religious belief, the freedom to dress how one likes, etc. this shouldn't be at any price. That's what British Values education is supposed to be about. One thing which needs addressing is birth rates. When I was little it was the era of family planning - what happened to that? I think if we had a family-planning culture fewer immigrant families would think it normal/acceptable to have 6 kids. Did the govt finally change the rules so that families only get benefits for the first couple of kids? That's a start. No more immigration-by-arranged-marriage would be good too.0
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Mr. Pulpstar, deeply unfair comment on Campbell.
He'd be an utter **** without any tweets.0 -
It's quite an unusual leap to argue that because religions are groups of humans, and humans are primates, religions themselves are entities that necessarily behave like primates. How would that theory deal with the religious composition of India, or the various countries (e.g. US) where Protestant and Catholic factions both exceed 5pc?isam said:
Humans are primates, and in primate communities there has to be an alpha male. In the UK/Europe the alpha male was Christianity. As long as other religions were too small in number to mount an attack everything was ok. Now one is growing and beginning to want power, trouble is inevitableFrancisUrquhart said:
Perhaps. I don't know the answer, does anybody?isam said:FPT Re UK Sikhs not being as violent as UK Muslims...
Its more to do with numbers than intracacies of the religion. I said many times, once you get to 5-6% of the insurgent religion, trouble is inevitable. Looks like we are there
2001 2011
Christian 71.58% 59.49%
Muslim 2.71% 4.41%
Hindu 0.95% 1.32%
Sikh 0.57% 0.43%
Buddhist 0.26% 0.41%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom#Religion
Same pattern across Europe. Look at the 5-10% countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
I can only judge on the reports we get on the background of these terrorists and my experience from spending far too long on university campuses, that there is an issue and it isn't simply the kidz in the hood with no prospects.
"In understanding this matter, the beginning of wisdom is to grasp the law that in human societies power is never left unclaimed and unused. It does not blow about, like wastepaper on the streets, ownerless and inert. Men’s nature is not only, as Thucydides long ago asserted, to exert power where they have it; men cannot help themselves from exerting power where they have it, whether they want to or not. "
The secularists thought ceding Christianity's alpha male position would lead to power sharing... BIG mistake.
Same would apply if Islam was the Alpha male and Christianity started growing. That's why Islamic Republics don't allow it.0 -
I am looking forward to SeanT's autobiography, it should be legendary....Jason said:
Come on, you made that up, didn't you?SeanT said:
A friend of mine visits iran regularly (he learned Farsi when he was in the SAS) and says there is a massive underground/alternative scene - youthful, vibrant, counter-cultural - across the country. And it is very slowly coming into the open. This ain't Saudi, or North Korea.Polruan said:FPT
Iran just moved a few notches up my "must visit" list.SeanT said:
Yep. Here's another vid. They're really quite goodPulpstar said:
Showing that amount of ankle would be a lynching offense in Saudi would it not ?SeanT said:
It's stuff like this that gives me hope for IranNigelb said:
True. But I policy successes under Obama was nascent engagement - which is now being reversed.Cyclefree said:
Iran qua Persia: you may be right.SeanT said:Cyclefree said:
Iran fundsay as the Saudi view is. Just because it is the enemy of the Saudis does not make it our friend.Cyan said:
It's about time a British government stood up to the Saudi dictatorship.Cyclefree said:We should stop all funding by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran and Pakistan (itself heavily funded/influenced by the Saudis) of schools, mosques, madrassas, university chairs etc in this country. Politicians who appear on their propaganda arms should be called out for such stupidly naive behaviour.
Why do you include Iran on your list?
If there is hope for longterm reform in Islam - an Enlightenment - my guess is that it will come from Iran, where, ironically and relatedly, the jihadist revolution first caught fire.
So we should keep our distance from Tehran, but not give up on them.
The only reason we should have any dealing with Saudi is because, if the royal family was toppled, it would almost certainly be replaced by something much much worse. ISIS with a trillion dollars.
The Iranian regime: no. It is not "less mysogynistic". One of the first decisions of the Iranian regime was to bring the age of consent down (to 9, I think.) It uses rape as a punishment in prisons.
Its values are revolting.
https://twitter.com/OneBunchMan/status/869259649102606336
It's not the dour, hopeless theocracy we imagine; not entirely, anyway.
https://twitter.com/arminarefi/status/868727334588776448
I'd be even more impressed if they nailed Paranoid Android.
There's also lots of drugs and lots of drinking, and sex parties in Tehran.0 -
Utterly off topic but I've just discovered that emirates block the political betting website but not the vanilla forums urls. And anything is better than the 2000 pages of crud I need to read before tomorrow's comedy show begins. Outsourced it project 6 weeks in, already 5+ weeks behind. So I'm off to India at no notice to identify the size of the mess.0
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Well he is a fiction writer after all.FrancisUrquhart said:
I am looking forward to SeanT's autobiography, it should be legendary....Jason said:
Come on, you made that up, didn't you?SeanT said:
A friend of mine visits iran regularly (he learned Farsi when he was in the SAS) and says there is a massive underground/alternative scene - youthful, vibrant, counter-cultural - across the country. And it is very slowly coming into the open. This ain't Saudi, or North Korea.Polruan said:FPT
Iran just moved a few notches up my "must visit" list.SeanT said:
Yep. Here's another vid. They're really quite goodPulpstar said:
Showing that amount of ankle would be a lynching offense in Saudi would it not ?SeanT said:
It's stuff like this that gives me hope for IranNigelb said:
True. But I policy successes under Obama was nascent engagement - which is now being reversed.Cyclefree said:
Iran qua Persia: you may be right.SeanT said:Cyclefree said:
Iran fundsay as the Saudi view is. Just because it is the enemy of the Saudis does not make it our friend.Cyan said:
It's about time a British government stood up to the Saudi dictatorship.Cyclefree said:We should stop all funding by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran and Pakistan (itself heavily funded/influenced by the Saudis) of schools, mosques, madrassas, university chairs etc in this country. Politicians who appear on their propaganda arms should be called out for such stupidly naive behaviour.
Why do you include Iran on your list?
The only reason we should have any dealing with Saudi is because, if the royal family was toppled, it would almost certainly be replaced by something much much worse. ISIS with a trillion dollars.
The Iranian regime: no. It is not "less mysogynistic". One of the first decisions of the Iranian regime was to bring the age of consent down (to 9, I think.) It uses rape as a punishment in prisons.
Its values are revolting.
https://twitter.com/OneBunchMan/status/869259649102606336
It's not the dour, hopeless theocracy we imagine; not entirely, anyway.
https://twitter.com/arminarefi/status/868727334588776448
I'd be even more impressed if they nailed Paranoid Android.
There's also lots of drugs and lots of drinking, and sex parties in Tehran.0 -
Interesting article on persecution of christians in Iran
http://www.christiansinparliament.org.uk/uploads/APPGs-report-on-Persecution-of-Christians-in-Iran.pdf
0 -
Am I now? Evidence you moron?MonikerDiCanio said:-1 -
When are the final polls expected?0
-
The tories will win - no fear on that score I think.FrancisUrquhart said:
I got some special bottles in for certain MPs going, but not for the result. Looks like now none will be getting drunk, instead I will be spending all Thursday wetting the bed.Floater said:
LOL - yep - shit has to be the choice over shit, dangerous and deludedFrancisUrquhart said:
Bizarrely didn't May's approval numbers go up after he Trump hand holding?SouthamObserver said:This would be a God send for Labour ...
https://twitter.com/evanmcmurry/status/871358001541595137
I didn't understand her massive approval ratings (and said so at the time), but I don't understand Corbyn's massive rise either. They are both shit in my eyes, just one is shit and the other is shit and dangerous.0 -
Hang on - Ant from that SAS thing on C4?SeanT said:
Nope. He has an incredible life-story. He was a smack addict like me. He's also a TV presenter now.Jason said:
Come on, you made that up, didn't you?SeanT said:
A friend of mine visits iran regularly (he learned Farsi when he was in the SAS) and says there is a massive underground/alternative scene - youthful, vibrant, counter-cultural - across the country. And it is very slowly coming into the open. This ain't Saudi, or North Korea.Polruan said:FPT
Iran just moved a few notches up my "must visit" list.SeanT said:
Yep. Here's another vid. They're really quite goodPulpstar said:
Showing that amount of ankle would be a lynching offense in Saudi would it not ?SeanT said:
It's stuff like this that gives me hope for IranNigelb said:
True. But I policy successes under Obama was nascent engagement - which is now being reversed.Cyclefree said:
Iran quvolting.SeanT said:Cyclefree said:
Iran fundsay as the Saudi view is. Just because it is the enemy of the Saudis does not make it our friend.Cyan said:
It's about time a British government stood up to the Saudi dictatorship.Cyclefree said:We should stop all funding by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran and Pakistan (itself heavily funded/influenced by the Saudis) of schools, mosques, madrassas, university chairs etc in this country. Politicians who appear on their propaganda arms should be called out for such stupidly naive behaviour.
Why do you include Iran on your list?
If there is hotainly be replaced by something much much worse. ISIS with a trillion dollars.
https://twitter.com/OneBunchMan/status/869259649102606336
It's not the dour, hopeless theocracy we imagine; not entirely, anyway.
https://twitter.com/arminarefi/status/868727334588776448
I'd be even more impressed if they nailed Paranoid Android.
There's also lots of drugs and lots of drinking, and sex parties in Tehran.0 -
"The alpha male was Christianity" is so ill conceived a metaphor that it's difficult to know where to begin. In Europe, the secular state is the norm - the UK included these days, I'd argue (despite a nominally established church), given our spectacular irreligiosity and tolerance for other faiths.isam said:
Humans are primates, and in primate communities there has to be an alpha male. In the UK/Europe the alpha male was Christianity. As long as other religions were too small in number to mount an attack everything was ok. Now one is growing and beginning to want power, trouble is inevitableFrancisUrquhart said:
Perhaps. I don't know the answer, does anybody?isam said:FPT Re UK Sikhs not being as violent as UK Muslims...
Its more to do with numbers than intracacies of the religion. I said many times, once you get to 5-6% of the insurgent religion, trouble is inevitable. Looks like we are there
2001 2011
Christian 71.58% 59.49%
Muslim 2.71% 4.41%
Hindu 0.95% 1.32%
Sikh 0.57% 0.43%
Buddhist 0.26% 0.41%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom#Religion
Same pattern across Europe. Look at the 5-10% countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
I can only judge on the reports we get on the background of these terrorists and my experience from spending far too long on university campuses, that there is an issue and it isn't simply the kidz in the hood with no prospects.
"In understanding this matter, the beginning of wisdom is to grasp the law that in human societies power is never left unclaimed and unused. It does not blow about, like wastepaper on the streets, ownerless and inert. Men’s nature is not only, as Thucydides long ago asserted, to exert power where they have it; men cannot help themselves from exerting power where they have it, whether they want to or not. "
The secularists thought ceding Christianity's alpha male position would lead to power sharing... BIG mistake.
Same would apply if Islam was the Alpha male and Christianity started growing. That's why Islamic Republics don't allow it.
You do seem to have an irrational - some might say faith based - attachment to the sayings of the prophet Enoch....0 -
10:00pm 8th June ....Morris_Dancer said:When are the final polls expected?
Jezza - Exit (Poll) Stage (Extreme) Left0 -
Obviously this is my opinion, I am sorry I presented it as fact, I don't really like that.Polruan said:
It's quite an unusual leap to argue that because religions are groups of humans, and humans are primates, religions themselves are entities that necessarily behave like primates. How would that theory deal with the religious composition of India, or the various countries (e.g. US) where Protestant and Catholic factions both exceed 5pc?isam said:
Humans are primates, and in primate communities there has to be an alpha male. In the UK/Europe the alpha male was Christianity. As long as other religions were too small in number to mount an attack everything was ok. Now one is growing and beginning to want power, trouble is inevitableFrancisUrquhart said:
Perhaps. I don't know the answer, does anybody?isam said:FPT Re UK Sikhs not being as violent as UK Muslims...
Its more to do with numbers than intracacies of the religion. I said many times, once you get to 5-6% of the insurgent religion, trouble is inevitable. Looks like we are there
2001 2011
Christian 71.58% 59.49%
Muslim 2.71% 4.41%
Hindu 0.95% 1.32%
Sikh 0.57% 0.43%
Buddhist 0.26% 0.41%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom#Religion
Same pattern across Europe. Look at the 5-10% countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
I can only judge on the reports we get on the background of these terrorists and my experience from spending far too long on university campuses, that there is an issue and it isn't simply the kidz in the hood with no prospects.
"In understanding this matter, the beginning of wisdom is to grasp the law that in human societies power is never left unclaimed and unused. It does not blow about, like wastepaper on the streets, ownerless and inert. Men’s nature is not only, as Thucydides long ago asserted, to exert power where they have it; men cannot help themselves from exerting power where they have it, whether they want to or not. "
The secularists thought ceding Christianity's alpha male position would lead to power sharing... BIG mistake.
Same would apply if Islam was the Alpha male and Christianity started growing. That's why Islamic Republics don't allow it.
I would say that India still seems to have 80% Hindu as top dog, there was big tension before the country was partitioned (Enoch Powell's whole view on immigration was formed by the way Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims acted in p[re Partioned India)
Secondly, maybe the tension isn't so bad when people are worshipping the same God. Maybe its the God rather than the religion that is the alpha male
Another big factor is the length of time the religions have co existed, and how quickly the insurgent is rising. Islam in Western Europe is too much too soon0 -
Interesting - but I must hi-light this from second linkSeanT said:
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/vice-dj-mixes-vol-1Polruan said:
They never tell you the useful stuff in Lonely Planet, do they?SeanT said:
A friend of mine visits iran regularly (he learned Farsi when he was in the SAS) and says there is a massive underground/alternative scene - youthful, vibrant, counter-cultural - across the country. And it is very slowly coming into the open. This ain't Saudi, or North Korea.Polruan said:FPT
Iran just moved a few notches up my "must visit" list.SeanT said:
Yep. Here's another vid. They're really quite goodPulpstar said:
Showing that amount of ankle would be a lynching offense in Saudi would it not ?SeanT said:
It's stuff like this that gives me hope for IranNigelb said:
True. But I policy successes under Obama was nascent engagement - which is now being reversed.Cyclefree said:
Iran qua Persia: you may be right.SeanT said:Cyclefree said:
Iran fundsay as the Saudi view is. Just because it is the enemy of the Saudis does not make it our friend.Cyan said:
It's about time a British government stood up to the Saudi dictatorship.Cyclefree said:We should stop all funding by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran and Pakistan (itself heavily funded/influenced by the Saudis) of schools, mosques, madrassas, university chairs etc in this country. Politicians who appear on their propaganda arms should be called out for such stupidly naive behaviour.
Why do you include Iran on your list?
If there
The Iranian regime: no. It is not "less mysogynistic". One of the first decisions of the Iranian regime was to bring the age of consent down (to 9, I think.) It uses rape as a punishment in prisons.
Its values are revolting.
https://twitter.com/OneBunchMan/status/869259649102606336
It's not the dour, hopeless theocracy we imagine; not entirely, anyway.
https://twitter.com/arminarefi/status/868727334588776448
I'd be even more impressed if they nailed Paranoid Android.
There's also lots of drugs and lots of drinking, and sex parties in Tehran.
http://www.salon.com/2013/07/28/sexy_spring_how_group_sex_will_liberate_iran_china/
"and the stakes of personal decisions remain high. In 2004, despite nationwide attention to the public execution of a seventeen-year-old girl suspected of having premarital sex, "
0 -
Mrs May says there is far too much toleration of extrmists in the UK....forgetting that she's been Home Secretary for the last 7 years.....
Last week she said 'Brexit will make us MORE prosperous' forgetting that before the referendum she said it would make us LESS prosperous.
Even with his Paul Smith suits Corbyn is looking more authentic by the day0 -
Yes - an authentic, bona fide terrorist sympathiser.Roger said:Mrs May says there is far too much toleration of extrmists in the UK....forgetting that she's been Home Secretary for the last 7 years.....
Last week she said 'Brexit will make us MORE prosperous' forgetting that before the referendum she said it would make us LESS prosperous.
Even with his Paul Smith suits Corbyn is looking more authentic by the day0 -
I just think he was/is right on the problem immigration causes for social cohesion. Faith doesn't really come into it, the evidence is seen in Manchester and London in the last month. It would/must take a great deal of faith in immigration and multiculturalism to deny it.Nigelb said:
"The alpha male was Christianity" is so ill conceived a metaphor that it's difficult to know where to begin. In Europe, the secular state is the norm - the UK included these days, I'd argue (despite a nominally established church), given our spectacular irreligiosity and tolerance for other faiths.isam said:
Same would apply if Islam was the Alpha male and Christianity started growing. That's why Islamic Republics don't allow it.FrancisUrquhart said:
Perhaps. I don't know the answer, does anybody?isam said:FPT Re UK Sikhs not being as violent as UK Muslims...
Its more to do with numbers than intracacies of the religion. I said many times, once you get to 5-6% of the insurgent religion, trouble is inevitable. Looks like we are there
2001 2011
Christian 71.58% 59.49%
Muslim 2.71% 4.41%
Hindu 0.95% 1.32%
Sikh 0.57% 0.43%
Buddhist 0.26% 0.41%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom#Religion
Same pattern across Europe. Look at the 5-10% countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
I can only judge on the reports we get on the background of these terrorists and my experience from spending far too long on university campuses, that there is an issue and it isn't simply the kidz in the hood with no prospects.
You do seem to have an irrational - some might say faith based - attachment to the sayings of the prophet Enoch....
Christianity was the alpha male across Europe. Secularism ate away at it and now, wherever there are 5-10% muslims...
Austria · Belgium . Bulgaria · France ·German · Netherlands · Sweden · Switzerland
AGGRO!
Where there are no muslims...
Armenia · Belarus · Czech Republic · Estonia · Finland · Hungary · Iceland · Latvia · Lithuania · Malta · Moldova · Monaco · Poland · Portugal · Romania · San Marino · Slovakia · Ukraine
NO AGGRO!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
Many people say it is something about Muslims, I don't. It is something about the friction between big numbers of people with different faith0 -
One of the best books I've read recently, particularly the final chapters.SeanT said:
I have actually written a 2nd volume of memoirs (the first was all about my lovelife, and was a modest bestseller)FrancisUrquhart said:
I am looking forward to SeanT's autobiography, it should be legendary....Jason said:
Come on, you made that up, didn't you?SeanT said:
A friend of mine visits iran regularly (he learned Farsi when he was in the SAS) and says there is a massive underground/alternative scene - youthful, vibrant, counter-cultural - across the country. And it is very slowly coming into the open. This ain't Saudi, or North Korea.Polruan said:FPT
Iran just moved a few notches up my "must visit" list.SeanT said:Pulpstar said:
Showing that amount of ankle would be a lynching offense in Saudi would it not ?SeanT said:Nigelb said:
True. But I policy successes under Obama was nascent engagement - which is now being reversed.Cyclefree said:
Iran qua Persia: you may be right.SeanT said:Cyclefree said:
my of the Saudis does not make it our friend.Cyan said:
It's about time a British government stood up to the Saudi dictatorship.Cyclefree said:We should stop all funding by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran and Pakistan (itself heavily funded/influenced by the Saudis) of uld be called out for such stupidly naive behaviour.
Why do you include Iran on your list?
If there is ho
The Irevolting.
https://twitter.com/OneBunchMan/status/869259649102606336
entirely, anyway.
https://twitter.com/arminarefi/status/868727334588776448
I'd be even more impressed if they nailed Paranoid Android.
There's also lots of drugs and lots of drinking, and sex parties in Tehran.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Millions-Women-are-Waiting-Meet/dp/0747585563
The new book dishes the REAL dirt.
However the first editors we showed this sequel too weren't happy. Why?
"Because", my agent said, "no one will believe that all this stuff happened to one person".
I'm waiting for the right way to frame my story, so it is credible and coherent. I regard all these true-life yarns as my pension.0 -
Mr. Isam, Christians and Muslims worship the same god.
Mr. W, you tinker.
Mr. Malmesbury, nah, he's just a Wibbling Muddle-headed Dipstick.0 -
I don't doubt that Jezza is authentic. That however is his total downfall.Roger said:Mrs May says there is far too much toleration of extrmists in the UK....forgetting that she's been Home Secretary for the last 7 years.....
Last week she said 'Brexit will make us MORE prosperous' forgetting that before the referendum she said it would make us LESS prosperous.
Even with his Paul Smith suits Corbyn is looking more authentic by the day0 -
If families have fewer children that likely leads to more immigration in future. Therefore, assuming the immigration system does not start discriminating against those from cultures unlikely to integrate, discouraging large families implies a higher proportion of poorly integrated children in future.Dadge said:Even though I'm a Love Your Neighbour kind of guy, I do believe in "national character" and preservation of same. Most immigrants do too - people come here because it's a nice place with certain qualities and values and they don't want it to change. Witness the paradox of immigrant families becoming anti-immigration. So although govts should be respectful of people's rights of free speech, of religious belief, the freedom to dress how one likes, etc. this shouldn't be at any price. That's what British Values education is supposed to be about. One thing which needs addressing is birth rates. When I was little it was the era of family planning - what happened to that? I think if we had a family-planning culture fewer immigrant families would think it normal/acceptable to have 6 kids. Did the govt finally change the rules so that families only get benefits for the first couple of kids? That's a start. No more immigration-by-arranged-marriage would be good too.
0 -
Islam, Christianity and Judaism all worship the same god.isam said:
Obviously this is my opinion, I am sorry I presented it as fact, I don't really like that.Polruan said:
It's quite an unusual leap to argue that because religions are groups of humans, and humans are primates, religions themselves are entities that necessarily behave like primates. How would that theory deal with the religious composition of India, or the various countries (e.g. US) where Protestant and Catholic factions both exceed 5pc?isam said:
:FrancisUrquhart said:
Perhaps. I don't know the answer, does anybody?isam said:FPT Re UK Sikhs not being as violent as UK Muslims...
Its more to do with numbers than intracacies of the religion. I said many times, once you get to 5-6% of the insurgent religion, trouble is inevitable. Looks like we are there
2001 2011
Christian 71.58% 59.49%
Muslim 2.71% 4.41%
Hindu 0.95% 1.32%
Sikh 0.57% 0.43%
Buddhist 0.26% 0.41%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom#Religion
Same pattern across Europe. Look at the 5-10% countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
I can only judge on the reports we get on the background of these terrorists and my experience from spending far too long on university campuses, that there is an issue and it isn't simply the kidz in the hood with no prospects.
"In understanding this matter, the beginning of wisdom is to grasp the law that in human societies power is never left unclaimed and unused. It does not blow about, like wastepaper on the streets, ownerless and inert. Men’s nature is not only, as Thucydides long ago asserted, to exert power where they have it; men cannot help themselves from exerting power where they have it, whether they want to or not. "
The secularists thought ceding Christianity's alpha male position would lead to power sharing... BIG mistake.
Same would apply if Islam was the Alpha male and Christianity started growing. That's why Islamic Republics don't allow it.
I would say that India still seems to have 80% Hindu as top dog, there was big tension before the country was partitioned (Enoch Powell's whole view on immigration was formed by the way Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims acted in p[re Partioned India)
Secondly, maybe the tension isn't so bad when people are worshipping the same God. Maybe its the God rather than the religion that is the alpha male
Another big factor is the length of time the religions have co existed, and how quickly the insurgent is rising. Islam in Western Europe is too much too soon0 -
This is all a dream, and you're still in a drug-induced stupor in a ditch outside a South American village ...SeanT said:
I have actually written a 2nd volume of memoirs (the first was all about my lovelife, and was a modest bestseller)
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Millions-Women-are-Waiting-Meet/dp/0747585563
The new book dishes the REAL dirt.
However the first editors we showed this sequel too weren't happy. Why?
"Because", my agent said, "no one will believe that all this stuff happened to one person".
I'm waiting for the right way to frame my story, so it is credible and coherent. I regard all these true-life yarns as my pension. 0 -
Yes, but the guy who spread the word for Christianity could not have been more different to the guy who spread the word for Islam.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, Christians and Muslims worship the same god.
Mr. W, you tinker.
Mr. Malmesbury, nah, he's just a Wibbling Muddle-headed Dipstick.0 -
We just have to get used to this eh?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4570634/Woman-begs-loved-one-hold-terror-attack.html
(Graphic content)
"The unnamed woman said: 'Stay with me, please, I love you. Don't let those f****** get away with it. Come on, please', as a paramedic and police office gave him CPR on London Bridge. "
0 -
Fingers crossedSeanT said:
I'm not claiming Iran has turned into Monte Carlo crossed with California. It is still a quasi theocracy. Gays are executed. Repression is real.Floater said:
Interesting - but I must hi-light this from second linkSeanT said:
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/vice-dj-mixes-vol-1Polruan said:
They never tell you the useful stuff in Lonely Planet, do they?SeanT said:
A frieand sex parties in Tehran.Polruan said:FPT
Iran just moved a few notches up my "must visit" list.SeanT said:
Yep. Here's another vid. They're really quite goodPulpstar said:
Showing that amount of ankle would be a lynching offense in Saudi would it not ?SeanT said:
It's stuff like this that gives me hope for IranNigelb said:
True. But I policy successes under Obama was nascent engagement - which is now being reversed.Cyclefree said:
Iran qvolting.SeanT said:Cyclefree said:
Iran fundsay as the Saudi view is. Just because it is the enemy of the Saudis does not make it our friend.Cyan said:
It's about time a British government stood up to the Saudi dictatorship.Cyclefree said:We should stop all funding by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iran and Pakistan (itself heavily funded/influenced by the Saudis) of schools, mosques, madrassas, university chairs etc in this country. Politicians who appear on their propaganda arms should be called out for such stupidly naive behaviour.
Why do you include Iran on your list?
If there
https://twitter.com/OneBunchMan/status/869259649102606336
It's not the dour, hopeless theocracy we imagine; not entirely, anyway.
https://twitter.com/arminarefi/status/868727334588776448
I'd be even more impressed if they nailed Paranoid Android.
http://www.salon.com/2013/07/28/sexy_spring_how_group_sex_will_liberate_iran_china/
"and the stakes of personal decisions remain high. In 2004, despite nationwide attention to the public execution of a seventeen-year-old girl suspected of having premarital sex, "
I'm just saying the socio-cultural picture is much more interesting and mixed than received opinion tells you. And it has quite startling and significant pockets of decadence, free thinking, and rebellion, which might one day be the seeds of real liberalisation.0 -
IndeedJason said:
Yes, but the guy who spread the word for Christianity could not have been more different to the guy who spread the word for Islam.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, Christians and Muslims worship the same god.
Mr. W, you tinker.
Mr. Malmesbury, nah, he's just a Wibbling Muddle-headed Dipstick.0 -
The foreign secretary clearly believes there is a link between police numbers and security ...Polruan said:On today's main topic, I'm genuinely confused by the May apologists arguing that there's no problem with the drop in police numbers. Not something you can plausibly sell to the public, even if true. But of course it's not true: firearms officers are part of that drop in numbers and it's common sense (even if untrue) to realise that at some stage a cut in total force strength must mean a cut in any given specialism. It's also common sense (even if untrue) to recognise that fewer police = less community contact = less intelligence about possible threats. Overall trying to argue that cutting police numbers is a perfectly reasonable thing to do just comes across as insulting the electorate's intelligence.
On the other hand, the old script of "we'd like more police, we'd like to give our existing fantastic officers the best equipment and support but Labour spent all the money and we're still fixing it" worked pretty well. Why did Team May abandon that line?
https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/667702715158429696
0 -
And yet every time something is suggested to try and bridge the divide - making people learn English, stamping out unacceptable religious practices or making people abide by British laws with no exceptions - and deal with extremism, people like you shout 'RACISM'.Roger said:Mrs May says there is far too much toleration of extrmists in the UK....forgetting that she's been Home Secretary for the last 7 years.....
Last week she said 'Brexit will make us MORE prosperous' forgetting that before the referendum she said it would make us LESS prosperous.
Even with his Paul Smith suits Corbyn is looking more authentic by the day
If you want to look for one of the root causes of this problem look to yourself Roger.0 -
Sean, was I correct about Ant?0
-
Mind you, I always liked George MacDonald Frasers point of view on Jesus. This is a guy who worked in the family construction business. Who threw money changers out of the Temple. That is not the description of a 5 foot shrimp..... Go and look at money changers in the third world today. Then imagine throwing a crowd of them out of their place of business.Jason said:
Yes, but the guy who spread the word for Christianity could not have been more different to the guy who spread the word for Islam.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, Christians and Muslims worship the same god.
Mr. W, you tinker.
Mr. Malmesbury, nah, he's just a Wibbling Muddle-headed Dipstick.0 -
You've clearly not followed (for example) shootings at abortion clinics in the US. Irrational faith based violence is not exclusive to Islam - note also the example of Buddhist terror:isam said:
I just think he was/is right on the problem immigration causes for social cohesion. Faith doesn't really come into it, the evidence is seen in Manchester and London in the last month. It would/must take a great deal of faith in immigration and multiculturalism to deny it.Nigelb said:
"The alpha male was Christianity" is so ill conceived a metaphor that it's difficult to know where to begin. In Europe, the secular state is the norm - the UK included these days, I'd argue (despite a nominally established church), given our spectacular irreligiosity and tolerance for other faiths.isam said:
Same would apply if Islam was the Alpha male and Christianity started growing. That's why Islamic Republics don't allow it.FrancisUrquhart said:
Perhaps. I don't know the answer, does anybody?isam said:FPT Re UK Sikhs not being as violent as UK Muslims...
Its more to do with numbers than intracacies of the religion. I said many times, once you get to 5-6% of the insurgent religion, trouble is inevitable. Looks like we are there
2001 2011
Christian 71.58% 59.49%
Muslim 2.71% 4.41%
Hindu 0.95% 1.32%
Sikh 0.57% 0.43%
Buddhist 0.26% 0.41%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom#Religion
Same pattern across Europe. Look at the 5-10% countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
I can only judge on the reports we get on the background of these terrorists and my experience from spending far too long on university campuses, that there is an issue and it isn't simply the kidz in the hood with no prospects.
You do seem to have an irrational - some might say faith based - attachment to the sayings of the prophet Enoch....
Christianity was the alpha male across Europe. Secularism ate away at it and now, wherever there are 5-10% muslims...
Austria ·
Belgium
Bulgaria ·
France ·
German ·
Netherlands ·
Sweden ·
Switzerland
AGGRO!
Where there are no muslims.. (
Armenia ·
Belarus ·
Czech Republic ·
Estonia ·
Finland ·
Hungary ·
Iceland ·
Latvia ·
Lithuania ·
Malta ·
Moldova ·
Monaco ·
Poland ·
Portugal ·
Romania ·
San Marino ·
Slovakia ·
Ukraine
NO AGGRO!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence#Myanmar
Enlightenment and secular democracy are necessary for the long term survival of civilisation in a globalised world where nuclear weapons exist. Shutting off oneself from the problem is no solution.
0 -
Not so sure - his objection to stoning women to death was only based on the double-standards argument.Jason said:
Yes, but the guy who spread the word for Christianity could not have been more different to the guy who spread the word for Islam.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, Christians and Muslims worship the same god.
Mr. W, you tinker.
Mr. Malmesbury, nah, he's just a Wibbling Muddle-headed Dipstick.0 -
Mr. Jason, indeed. Gibbon covers the rise of both religions. Christianity was far more tedious than Islam, because the latter had a lot more violence (and better timing, coinciding with the exhaustion of both the Persian and Eastern Roman Empires).
If Islam had started around the time of Maurice and Chosroes being rather chummy (just a few years earlier), history could have been very, very different.0 -
I'm starting to doubt that. I suspect that on most criteria Jezza will do well (actual votes, percentage of vote) but he will lose seats.JackW said:
10:00pm 8th June ....Morris_Dancer said:When are the final polls expected?
Jezza - Exit (Poll) Stage (Extreme) Left
However I bet no losing labour MP will have any campaign leaflets with Jezza on the leaflet which will give him an excuse for staying on ~ they might have won if they had campaigned with me rather than running a different campaign to the one ran nationally.0 -
Mr. Observer, aye. What year was it the Shadow Chancellor called for disbanding MI5 and armed police?0
-
JackW
Too me so long to post a response that a whole new thread had appeared...
Yes because CT resources haven't been cut to any great note plus SS resources for CT have risen over years. The only way numbers matters is if you prefer a similar approach to NI where they parked themselves in the the middle of difficult areas in a big fat building, patrolled relentlessly, did road checks, and generally disrupted lives. Bluntly the people of England perhaps aren't up for it and, maybe this is harsh but the level of the threat in terms of frequency maybe doesn't warrant it. Anyway the apparently lost 20 000 simply wouldn't be near enough to adopt it to the greatest extent. Most losses probably weren't in the areas where its most needed either.
Ask most cops in England do they want to be armed and, by a fair majority if I recall correctly, they say no. Thats an error. The ability to shoot quickly and well matters. In threat terms the situation back at home is less from Republicans than from Islamic Extremists on the mainland (though by many measures of threat assessment not by much) but we arm everyone with proper gear and train them
Tactically the individuals picked a crap target for longevity of attack but PR wise its sound. Its near to considerable police resources of which a high proportion are armed. They failed to create siege situation they looked to be aiming for as well to drag out the attack.
Whilst the concept of low level intelligence in areas via patrolling does have a point, there is a political fear of how thats going to look if they are seen to be bearing down with resources where Muslims congregate. Visible gathering via uniformed officers requires you to stop people, question, take details and frankly be a pain in the arse every single day. No matter how many badges you have, the will isn't there to deploy. If you take the SS figures as gospel (PR aside), you are talking tens of thousands of people of interest. Most, beyond your Internet only jihadis, will be within fairly well defined geographical zones but there is no will to sit on them via routine boring policing.
As much as people don't comprehend or maybe want to, CT efforts against the Islamic extremists is still in V2.0 of its existence not V3 or 4, and it does have, but also lacks some depth in both low and high value informants. It has technical capabilities to burn.0 -
Trump also wanted the IRA to win:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-attended-sinn-f-in-fundraiser-months-before-ira-attacked-london-a6767601.html0 -
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Superbly put, Richard. The politics of appeasement to harvest votes has also got a lot to do with it.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet every time something is suggested to try and bridge the divide - making people learn English, stamping out unacceptable religious practices or making people abide by British laws with no exceptions - and deal with extremism, people like you shout 'RACISM'.Roger said:Mrs May says there is far too much toleration of extrmists in the UK....forgetting that she's been Home Secretary for the last 7 years.....
Last week she said 'Brexit will make us MORE prosperous' forgetting that before the referendum she said it would make us LESS prosperous.
Even with his Paul Smith suits Corbyn is looking more authentic by the day
If you want to look for one of the root causes of this problem look to yourself Roger.0 -
Theresa May's speech today was mostly good but it would have been better had she mentioned cracking down on funders of terrorism including state funders. Time to drop having "don't upset the oil sheikhs" as a fundamental of British foreign policy.
Since it is not a British "value" to allow terrorists to influence an election, I would have liked to have seen a joint statement by leaders from all of the main parties. Which are the "two parties" that she refers to? I thought the only party which has NOT suspended campaigning was UKIP. (Haven't checked Plaid.)0 -
The true British spirit. Check out the #thingsthatleavebritainreeling
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Yes, Corbyn looks authentically like the weak appeaser he always was, if anyone has tolerated extremism it is Jeremy 'friend of Hamas' Corbyn and yes I would have liked May to have acted earlier but at least this morning she struck exactly the right tough tone ready to take on extremism, starting with the internet and in the privacy of the ballot box on Thursday when wavering voters will now have in the back of their minds who they can trust to keep their family and country safe, May or Corbyn, the evidence only points in one direction!Roger said:Mrs May says there is far too much toleration of extrmists in the UK....forgetting that she's been Home Secretary for the last 7 years.....
Last week she said 'Brexit will make us MORE prosperous' forgetting that before the referendum she said it would make us LESS prosperous.
Even with his Paul Smith suits Corbyn is looking more authentic by the day0 -
I amended the post you are replying toNigelb said:
You've clearly not followed (for example) shootings at abortion clinics in the US. Irrational faith based violence is not exclusive to Islam - note also the example of Buddhist terror:isam said:
I just think he was/is right on the problem immigration causes for social cohesion. Faith doesn't really come into it, the evidence is seen in Manchester and London in the last month. It would/must take a great deal of faith in immigration and multiculturalism to deny it.Nigelb said:
"The alpha male was Christianity" is so ill conceived a metaphor that it's difficult to know where to begin. In Europe, the secular state is the norm - the UK included these days, I'd argue (despite a nominally established church), given our spectacular irreligiosity and tolerance for other faiths.isam said:
Same would apply if Islam was the Alpha male and Christianity started growing. That's why Islamic Republics don't allow it.FrancisUrquhart said:
Perhaps. I don't know the answer, does anybody?isam said:FPT Re UK Sikhs not being as violent as UK Muslims...
Its more to do with numbers than intracacies of the religion. I said many times, once you get to 5-6% of the insurgent religion, trouble is inevitable. Looks like we are there
2001 2011
Christian 71.58% 59.49%
Muslim 2.71% 4.41%
Hindu 0.95% 1.32%
Sikh 0.57% 0.43%
Buddhist 0.26% 0.41%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom#Religion
Same pattern across Europe. Look at the 5-10% countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
I can only judge on the reports we get on the background of these terrorists and my experience from spending far too long on university campuses, that there is an issue and it isn't simply the kidz in the hood with no prospects.
You do seem to have an irrational - some might say faith based - attachment to the sayings of the prophet Enoch....
Christianity was the alpha male across Europe. Secularism ate away at it and now, wherever there are 5-10% muslims...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence#Myanmar
Enlightenment and secular democracy are necessary for the long term survival of civilisation in a globalised world where nuclear weapons exist. Shutting off oneself from the problem is no solution.
"Many people say it is something about Muslims, I don't. It is something about the friction between big numbers of people with different faith"
So, although our problem is with Muslims, its not because they are muslims as such0 -
While Muslims claim to worship the same God, and have distorted Jewish and Christian teachings to do so, they do not.Jason said:
Yes, but the guy who spread the word for Christianity could not have been more different to the guy who spread the word for Islam.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, Christians and Muslims worship the same god.
Mr. W, you tinker.
Mr. Malmesbury, nah, he's just a Wibbling Muddle-headed Dipstick.
The differences between the New Testament and Kaoran are huge, particularly in relation to violence, and forming a state. Indeed Christianity had been around for several hundred years before Christians decided that war could sometimes be justified, and before it became state religion anywhere (Armenia beat Rome to it). Islam was born in violent conflict and as a conquering state from the beginning.0 -
I have searched assiduously but have been unable to find any reference to Jezza being allowed access to the Jihadis before they were brutally and summarily murdered by the police. Surely Jezza should have been given such access so that he could convince them of the error of their ways. They could have become valued members of society and examples of the importance of talking before taking precipitate physical action. A chat over a cup of tea solves many problems. That surely must be the way forward for everyone in the World.0
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Who was the former? St Paul?Jason said:
Yes, but the guy who spread the word for Christianity could not have been more different to the guy who spread the word for Islam.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, Christians and Muslims worship the same god.
Mr. W, you tinker.
Mr. Malmesbury, nah, he's just a Wibbling Muddle-headed Dipstick.
Oh for a version of monotheism that doesn't lionise one particular human above all others and doesn't hold that any ethnic group was or is the chosen people. This is a very strange planet.0 -
That was his argument, which remains a good one to use against religious extremists, not his objection.Stark_Dawning said:
Not so sure - his objection to stoning women to death was only based on the double-standards argument.Jason said:
Yes, but the guy who spread the word for Christianity could not have been more different to the guy who spread the word for Islam.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, Christians and Muslims worship the same god.
Mr. W, you tinker.
Mr. Malmesbury, nah, he's just a Wibbling Muddle-headed Dipstick.
Have you not read the Sermon on the Mount ?0 -
And some of his more repulsive Twitter supporters were busy re-tweeting veteran anti-west campaigner John Pilger's Saudi recent spiel before the bodies were cold last night and while people are fighting for their lives. Tory victory on Thursday will for once go with a sense of genuine relief that these people will be nowhere near government.Jason said:
Yes - an authentic, bona fide terrorist sympathiser.Roger said:Mrs May says there is far too much toleration of extrmists in the UK....forgetting that she's been Home Secretary for the last 7 years.....
Last week she said 'Brexit will make us MORE prosperous' forgetting that before the referendum she said it would make us LESS prosperous.
Even with his Paul Smith suits Corbyn is looking more authentic by the day0 -
Seven years and things are getting worse. Whatever you do don't blame whatshername.HYUFD said:
Yes, Corbyn looks authentically like the weak appeaser he always was, if anyone has tolerated extremism it is Jeremy 'friend of Hamas' Corbyn and yes I would have liked May to have acted earlier but at least this morning she struck exactly the right tough tone ready to take on extremism, starting with the internet and in the privacy of the ballot box on Thursday when wavering voters will now have in the back of their minds who they can trust to keep their family and country safe, May or Corbyn, the evidence only points in one direction!Roger said:Mrs May says there is far too much toleration of extrmists in the UK....forgetting that she's been Home Secretary for the last 7 years.....
Last week she said 'Brexit will make us MORE prosperous' forgetting that before the referendum she said it would make us LESS prosperous.
Even with his Paul Smith suits Corbyn is looking more authentic by the day0 -
It's pretty universal on the left to support language-teaching provision for non-English speaking immigrant communities, including opposing funding cuts in recent years. I'm struggling to think of parts of criminal law that are not universally applicable,Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet every time something is suggested to try and bridge the divide - making people learn English, stamping out unacceptable religious practices or making people abide by British laws with no exceptions - and deal with extremism, people like you shout 'RACISM'.Roger said:Mrs May says there is far too much toleration of extrmists in the UK....forgetting that she's been Home Secretary for the last 7 years.....
Last week she said 'Brexit will make us MORE prosperous' forgetting that before the referendum she said it would make us LESS prosperous.
Even with his Paul Smith suits Corbyn is looking more authentic by the day
If you want to look for one of the root causes of this problem look to yourself Roger.
What concrete steps to deal with extremism do you feel the government failed to take because of people shouting "racism" rather than for reasons of maintaining civil liberties that we value as a society, or because they were incompatible with cutting spending? I'm not clear what May means to do as a result of claiming "enough is enough".0 -
Six six six0
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Maybe there would be less Islamic terrorism under Corbyn, because he would be more likely to allow the extremists to have seats in parliament.valleyboy said:
Seven years and things are getting worse. Whatever you do don't blame whatshername.HYUFD said:
Yes, Corbyn looks authentically like the weak appeaser he always was, if anyone has tolerated extremism it is Jeremy 'friend of Hamas' Corbyn and yes I would have liked May to have acted earlier but at least this morning she struck exactly the right tough tone ready to take on extremism, starting with the internet and in the privacy of the ballot box on Thursday when wavering voters will now have in the back of their minds who they can trust to keep their family and country safe, May or Corbyn, the evidence only points in one direction!Roger said:Mrs May says there is far too much toleration of extrmists in the UK....forgetting that she's been Home Secretary for the last 7 years.....
Last week she said 'Brexit will make us MORE prosperous' forgetting that before the referendum she said it would make us LESS prosperous.
Even with his Paul Smith suits Corbyn is looking more authentic by the day0 -
Wow, I didn't expect to be on the same side as you on this but yes you are correct. While Muslims claim their god is the same abrahamic god, apart from modern wishy-washy apologists, that hasn't exactly been the historical view of Christian or Jewish authorities.foxinsoxuk said:
While Muslims claim to worship the same God, and have distorted Jewish and Christian teachings to do so, they do not.Jason said:
Yes, but the guy who spread the word for Christianity could not have been more different to the guy who spread the word for Islam.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, Christians and Muslims worship the same god.
Mr. W, you tinker.
Mr. Malmesbury, nah, he's just a Wibbling Muddle-headed Dipstick.
The differences between the New Testament and Kaoran are huge, particularly in relation to violence, and forming a state. Indeed Christianity had been around for several hundred years before Christians decided that war could sometimes be justified, and before it became state religion anywhere (Armenia beat Rome to it). Islam was born in violent conflict and as a conquering state from the beginning.0 -
So what? As Christianity ended up burning people to death for heresy (more so than for non-belief) it was clearly always going to converge on Islam no matter where it started. Tim thinks the NT urges a jihad against gays, a lot of American baptists agree, and others think the NT tells them to murder doctors. And if Christianity was a slow starter in the holy war stakes, it sure as feck made up fot it later.foxinsoxuk said:
While Muslims claim to worship the same God, and have distorted Jewish and Christian teachings to do so, they do not.Jason said:
Yes, but the guy who spread the word for Christianity could not have been more different to the guy who spread the word for Islam.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, Christians and Muslims worship the same god.
Mr. W, you tinker.
Mr. Malmesbury, nah, he's just a Wibbling Muddle-headed Dipstick.
The differences between the New Testament and Kaoran are huge, particularly in relation to violence, and forming a state. Indeed Christianity had been around for several hundred years before Christians decided that war could sometimes be justified, and before it became state religion anywhere (Armenia beat Rome to it). Islam was born in violent conflict and as a conquering state from the beginning.0 -
She is starting with a crackdown on extremism on the internet, hopefully she will then move onto a travel ban to Syria and Libya without express permission and also tagging extremists. Corbyn of course has voted against every piece of anti terror legislation introduced, is a friend of Hamas and opposes the shoot to kill policyvalleyboy said:
Seven years and things are getting worse. Whatever you do don't blame whatshername.HYUFD said:
Yes, Corbyn looks authentically like the weak appeaser he always was, if anyone has tolerated extremism it is Jeremy 'friend of Hamas' Corbyn and yes I would have liked May to have acted earlier but at least this morning she struck exactly the right tough tone ready to take on extremism, starting with the internet and in the privacy of the ballot box on Thursday when wavering voters will now have in the back of their minds who they can trust to keep their family and country safe, May or Corbyn, the evidence only points in one direction!Roger said:Mrs May says there is far too much toleration of extrmists in the UK....forgetting that she's been Home Secretary for the last 7 years.....
Last week she said 'Brexit will make us MORE prosperous' forgetting that before the referendum she said it would make us LESS prosperous.
Even with his Paul Smith suits Corbyn is looking more authentic by the day0 -
I see the "Scottish Police numbers" Tweet FPT has been deleted.
Just as well.
The "depleted" Met police neutralised 3 dangerous suspects in 8 minutes.
The "expanded" Police Scotland left someone to die at the side of the road for 3 days.
Until those numbers are reversed, a period of silence from the Zoomers on what a brilliant job Nicola is doing would be welcome.0 -
Anyway, got to go and get some proofreading done. Just a few more days, and we'll see whether we're led by the inept or the dangerous.0
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Of course it is the same God, bit of a theological stretch that one I'm afraid. Which part of Jesus/Isa, Mary, Abraham or the Angel Gabriel isn't in the Qu'ran or bible ?foxinsoxuk said:
While Muslims claim to worship the same God, and have distorted Jewish and Christian teachings to do so, they do not.Jason said:
Yes, but the guy who spread the word for Christianity could not have been more different to the guy who spread the word for Islam.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, Christians and Muslims worship the same god.
Mr. W, you tinker.
Mr. Malmesbury, nah, he's just a Wibbling Muddle-headed Dipstick.
The differences between the New Testament and Kaoran are huge, particularly in relation to violence, and forming a state. Indeed Christianity had been around for several hundred years before Christians decided that war could sometimes be justified, and before it became state religion anywhere (Armenia beat Rome to it). Islam was born in violent conflict and as a conquering state from the beginning.0 -
Allow? If you're referring to Sinn Fein, they don't take their seats by choice.isam said:Maybe there would be less Islamic terrorism under Corbyn, because he would be more likely to allow the extremists to have seats in parliament.
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Tories would gain BRS, Dumfries and Galloway, Aberdeenshire West and Kincardine, Perth and North Perthshire, Moray, Aberdeen South, Stirling and Edinburgh SW and East Lothian (though the latter would really be too close to call and Labour would also have a chance). Labour would be 1.28% off gaining Renfrewshire East, LDs would gain East Dunbartonshire. SNP would therefore be down to 46 seats from 56 in 2015AndyJS said:"Sam Freedman @Samfr
Panelbase Scotland poll for the Times has:
SNP: 42%
Con: 30%
Lab 20%
LD: 5%
Would mean Tories picking up 9 more seats."
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@SamCoatesTimes: Trump told to stay away this week... A City Hall source said: "It might not be the best time"
Although it would unite the people...0 -
Obviously the Islamic tradition has been clear since day one that it's the same God. But really, who else gives a damn about these inter-religious arguments about which of these supernatural entities are identical and which are different?brokenwheel said:
Wow, I didn't expect to be on the same side as you on this but yes you are correct. While Muslims claim their god is the same abrahamic god, apart from modern wishy-washy apologists, that hasn't exactly been the historical view of Christian or Jewish authorities.foxinsoxuk said:
While Muslims claim to worship the same God, and have distorted Jewish and Christian teachings to do so, they do not.Jason said:
Yes, but the guy who spread the word for Christianity could not have been more different to the guy who spread the word for Islam.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, Christians and Muslims worship the same god.
Mr. W, you tinker.
Mr. Malmesbury, nah, he's just a Wibbling Muddle-headed Dipstick.
The differences between the New Testament and Kaoran are huge, particularly in relation to violence, and forming a state. Indeed Christianity had been around for several hundred years before Christians decided that war could sometimes be justified, and before it became state religion anywhere (Armenia beat Rome to it). Islam was born in violent conflict and as a conquering state from the beginning.
Deal with people according to their actions, but once you start telling people what they can and can't believe, you're allying yourself with Hitler, Stalin and all the other totalitarians in history.0 -
I hope your friendly dry cleaner's son wasn't involved yesterday.SeanT said:
Islamic terror has got almost nothing to do with levels of policing.valleyboy said:
Seven years and things are getting worse. Whatever you do don't blame whatshername.HYUFD said:
Yes, Corbyn looks authentically like the weak appeaser he always was, if anyone has tolerated extremism it is Jeremy 'friend of Hamas' Corbyn and yes I would have liked May to have acted earlier but at least this morning she struck exactly the right tough tone ready to take on extremism, starting with the internet and in the privacy of the ballot box on Thursday when wavering voters will now have in the back of their minds who they can trust to keep their family and country safe, May or Corbyn, the evidence only points in one direction!Roger said:Mrs May says there is far too much toleration of extrmists in the UK....forgetting that she's been Home Secretary for the last 7 years.....
Last week she said 'Brexit will make us MORE prosperous' forgetting that before the referendum she said it would make us LESS prosperous.
Even with his Paul Smith suits Corbyn is looking more authentic by the day
In the last couple of years we've seen Islamist attacks in
France
Turkey
Germany
UK
Sweden
Iraq
America
Belgium
Denmark
Canada
Indonesia
Australia
Phillipines
Amongst others
These countries have completely different foreign policies, policing methods, attitudes to gun control, attitudes to Islam, security arrangements, intelligence networks, etc etc etc etc etc
Yet they all get attacked. Islamists like to attack non-believers, or Muslims who stand in their way. That's all there is to it.0 -
Jezza landslide.Scott_P said:@SamCoatesTimes: Trump told to stay away this week... A City Hall source said: "It might not be the best time"
Although it would unite the people...0 -
So developing a version of Christianity which accepted the separation between church and state is arguably easier theologically, as the religion developed independent of the state. Islam was entwined with the state from its founding. Even then, we had the Thirty Years War and the loss of a third of what is now Germany's population before the Treaty of Westphalia.Ishmael_Z said:
So what? As Christianity ended up burning people to death for heresy (more so than for non-belief) it was clearly always going to converge on Islam no matter where it started. Tim thinks the NT urges a jihad against gays, a lot of American baptists agree, and others think the NT tells them to murder doctors. And if Christianity was a slow starter in the holy war stakes, it sure as feck made up fot it later.foxinsoxuk said:
While Muslims claim to worship the same God, and have distorted Jewish and Christian teachings to do so, they do not.Jason said:
Yes, but the guy who spread the word for Christianity could not have been more different to the guy who spread the word for Islam.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Isam, Christians and Muslims worship the same god.
Mr. W, you tinker.
Mr. Malmesbury, nah, he's just a Wibbling Muddle-headed Dipstick.
The differences between the New Testament and Kaoran are huge, particularly in relation to violence, and forming a state. Indeed Christianity had been around for several hundred years before Christians decided that war could sometimes be justified, and before it became state religion anywhere (Armenia beat Rome to it). Islam was born in violent conflict and as a conquering state from the beginning.
Islam had its version of that sectarian conflict shortly after its founding, and it's still ongoing. And its secular state - Turkey - is reverting.0
