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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Theresa May’s firewall – the oldies who appear to staying loya

SystemSystem Posts: 11,693
edited May 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Theresa May’s firewall – the oldies who appear to staying loyal

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  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,711
    This will see May back into No10...thank you wise old people.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    The middle-aged, however, have been swinging big time to Labour. It's not solely young people who are causing their surge.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    Third! Like SLAB...
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    FPT

    Corbyn needs to roll out a good old-fashioned "1 week to save the NHS" campaign IMO.

    It will have more traction now than it did with Copeland IMO, because the social care clusterfuck has reactivated some of the old suspicions of Tory intentions (I've had a couple of people say things on the doorstep like "if she's going to start making people pay for their own elderly care, who says she won't just start charging for all sorts of things the NHS does?" -- that's especially from younger and middle-aged people who, frankly, don't seem to really understand how the social care system works currently). Plus, as much as PBers might sneer, I still think there's some mileage in the idea that she might put parts of the NHS out to tender for private American companies, as part of her desperation to get a trade deal with Trump.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Third! Like SLAB...

    Not 4th (in terms of seats) behind the LDs?
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,833
    #Oldies4Tezza
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    What? Surely not? I thought the Dementia tax had the Tories holed below the waterline! I read it on Twitter! It must be true!

    Meanwhile Baroness Chakrabati is dying of embarrassment in a corner somewhere:

    https://twitter.com/JournoStephen/status/869531844064284672
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    Danny565 said:

    Third! Like SLAB...

    Not 4th (in terms of seats) behind the LDs?
    That's always a possibility......Corbyn's 'Yes to IndyRef2' can't have helped....
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,076
    edited May 2017
    Danny565 said:

    The middle-aged, however, have been swinging big time to Labour. It's not solely young people who are causing their surge.

    The under 50s only, 50 to 65s still Tory and May has a bigger lead with pensioners than Cameron did
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,076
    Danny565 said:

    FPT

    Corbyn needs to roll out a good old-fashioned "1 week to save the NHS" campaign IMO.

    It will have more traction now than it did with Copeland IMO, because the social care clusterfuck has reactivated some of the old suspicions of Tory intentions (I've had a couple of people say things on the doorstep like "if she's going to start making people pay for their own elderly care, who says she won't just start charging for all sorts of things the NHS does?" -- that's especially from younger and middle-aged people who, frankly, don't seem to really understand how the social care system works currently). Plus, as much as PBers might sneer, I still think there's some mileage in the idea that she might put parts of the NHS out to tender for private American companies, as part of her desperation to get a trade deal with Trump.

    Just as every Labour leader does
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,711
    Danny565 said:

    FPT

    Corbyn needs to roll out a good old-fashioned "1 week to save the NHS" campaign IMO.

    Ah the typical blind panic card for Labour.... things must be getting bad again.
  • Options
    GrimRobGrimRob Posts: 8
    Expect big movements in the next few days. The election finally feels like it is starting to spark an interest in people.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,833
    I see Lord Hayward is predicting a Con majority of 75...
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Danny565 said:

    FPT

    Corbyn needs to roll out a good old-fashioned "1 week to save the NHS" campaign IMO.

    It will have more traction now than it did with Copeland IMO, because the social care clusterfuck has reactivated some of the old suspicions of Tory intentions (I've had a couple of people say things on the doorstep like "if she's going to start making people pay for their own elderly care, who says she won't just start charging for all sorts of things the NHS does?" -- that's especially from younger and middle-aged people who, frankly, don't seem to really understand how the social care system works currently). Plus, as much as PBers might sneer, I still think there's some mileage in the idea that she might put parts of the NHS out to tender for private American companies, as part of her desperation to get a trade deal with Trump.

    Doubt it would have much traction.

    IMO what cuts through with people is when actual doctors and nurses talk about the pressures they are under or actual patients talk about what happened to them.

    Now if Labour picked a leader who was a former doctor or a former nurse - I think they would have more credibility with the public.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,524
    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.
  • Options
    PeterMannionPeterMannion Posts: 712
    I agree with Paxo

    Don't let the retired vote
  • Options
    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    The Maginot line was a brilliant defence. That's why the Germans had to go around it.
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,711
    Pretty sure they can have a 50p tax rate already can't they?
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,952

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    Labour had a Lib Dem one in 2015 didn't they? Lets hope the Tories have updated their firewalls
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,007
    edited May 2017
    @SeanT from the last thread
    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    Gary Gibbon asks the obvious question.

    What possible deal could be worse than no deal?

    Well a deal where we handed over £50 trillion over the next 50 years certainly would be.
    Or handed over anything really. If we gave the EU 100 billion what stops them welshing on the deal after a year unless we pay another 100 billion?
    It would be a legally binding agreement, with some form of neutral arbitration at WTO level? I guess? I'm not an expert.

    And the EU is not actually asking for the money upfront, just an agreement to pay a fee, as and when we Brexit in 2019. But if they are not even willing to discuss the possibility of FTAs until we agree to a fixed sum, which seems insane, then again I see a Crash Brexit


    It's typical Germany negotiations - start at item 1 get a decision, then move on to item 2.


  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,729
    HYUFD said:

    Danny565 said:

    FPT

    Corbyn needs to roll out a good old-fashioned "1 week to save the NHS" campaign IMO.

    It will have more traction now than it did with Copeland IMO, because the social care clusterfuck has reactivated some of the old suspicions of Tory intentions (I've had a couple of people say things on the doorstep like "if she's going to start making people pay for their own elderly care, who says she won't just start charging for all sorts of things the NHS does?" -- that's especially from younger and middle-aged people who, frankly, don't seem to really understand how the social care system works currently). Plus, as much as PBers might sneer, I still think there's some mileage in the idea that she might put parts of the NHS out to tender for private American companies, as part of her desperation to get a trade deal with Trump.

    Just as every Labour leader does
    Yes, but Cameron had more or less succeeded in defusing that attack; May has exposed the Tory flank again. Further complacency would not be sensible.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,370
    SeanT said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    "Thanks. I'm finding it hard enough to sell my house at the moment as it is."


    To be brutally honest, your inability to sell your house might be one of those severe consequences of Brexit. Property is gonna take a hi

    PWP
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    I think TM's firewall of elderly voters is a lot stronger than Hilary's firewall of rust-belt states.

    But just in case it isn't - had a chance to consider my bet proposition?
  • Options
    JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    murali_s said:

    Jason said:

    murali_s said:

    Pong said:

    surbiton said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Can we take that to mean there's been a significant reduction of the Con lead with ICM?
    I do not expect the ICM poll to be materially different from last week. Their weighting is primarily based on GE2015 vote [ amongst others ] and not likelihood to vote.
    Yes. I think they've got this wrong.

    The Brexit campaign has changed british politics. 2015 was dull and uninspiring from the perspective of the 18-30's.

    A year ago politics became loud and meaningful.

    The consensus has been smashed.

    A pile of young people have seen the severe consequences of not quite getting around to vote.

    This time, they will vote.
    No-one really knows to be honest. We know Corbyn has enthused the young. If and a big if, the young do vote then all bets are off the table. Common convention is to weight the young vote significantly lower in polls - does that still hold true?
    Are you suggesting Corbyn could actually win this election if 18-24 yr olds bother to vote?
    Not win but if national leads are 6-8% then NOM can come into play with our young bothering to turn up at the polling stations. And as we all know the Tories have zero traction with the young - I wonder if there are any young PB Tories?
    A 6% lead would give the Tories a majority of around 34, and that's assuming Corbyn gets a highly improbable 37%. Even a 4% lead would give them a double figure majority.

    Labour would have to be touching 40% for a NOM. That's not far off what they achieved in 2001.

    No.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,524

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    The Maginot line was a brilliant defence. That's why the Germans had to go around it.
    See, it had mahoosive flaw with it.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,941
    "Firewall" - the most dangerous word in politics !
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,711
    The whole Emma Barnett/Zionist thing is quickly getting out of hand, Corbyn needs to do something about it, and quick.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,524
    rkrkrk said:

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    I think TM's firewall of elderly voters is a lot stronger than Hilary's firewall of rust-belt states.

    But just in case it isn't - had a chance to consider my bet proposition?
    I've asked my mate for the data on Venezuela before I consider the bet.
  • Options
    JasonJason Posts: 1,614

    The whole Emma Barnett/Zionist thing is quickly getting out of hand, Corbyn needs to do something about it, and quick.

    What, though? We all know he agrees with them.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,007
    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    "Thanks. I'm finding it hard enough to sell my house at the moment as it is."


    To be brutally honest, your inability to sell your house might be one of those severe consequences of Brexit. Property is gonna take a hi

    PWP
    PWP???

    To be honest house prices are going to take a hit as I've been looking at moving for ages and everytime I do I just think not paying that for that.

    Likewise my parents looked at a 2 bed flat in South Bucks recently. Their reaction was we'll stick where we are and redo the bathrooms...
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    The whole Emma Barnett/Zionist thing is quickly getting out of hand, Corbyn needs to do something about it, and quick.

    He won't. He has pretended Labour doesn't have an anti-semitism problem for so long now, he can't start now.

    It is truly repulsive behaviour on the part of the Left in this country. Repulsive.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I think it was ComRes that found that 24% of over 65s respondents had already voted. So a lot of these votes are presumably already in the bag for the Conservatives.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    I agree with Paxo

    Don't let the retired vote

    As long as the no-representation is balanced by no-taxation, you might be on to something.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The whole Emma Barnett/Zionist thing is quickly getting out of hand, Corbyn needs to do something about it, and quick.

    Surely all he has to do is send Shami out to claim there is no problem...
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    edited May 2017
    eek said:

    @SeanT from the last thread

    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    Gary Gibbon asks the obvious question.

    What possible deal could be worse than no deal?

    Well a deal where we handed over £50 trillion over the next 50 years certainly would be.
    Or handed over anything really. If we gave the EU 100 billion what stops them welshing on the deal after a year unless we pay another 100 billion?
    It would be a legally binding agreement, with some form of neutral arbitration at WTO level? I guess? I'm not an expert.

    And the EU is not actually asking for the money upfront, just an agreement to pay a fee, as and when we Brexit in 2019. But if they are not even willing to discuss the possibility of FTAs until we agree to a fixed sum, which seems insane, then again I see a Crash Brexit


    It's typical Germany negotiations - start at item 1 get a decision, then move on to item 2.


    The EU position is there needs to be progress on payments for other talks to begin. Progress is not defined. The member states will decide. Barnier has said he expects talks on a trade deal to begin in October/November - ie, on the other side of the German election.

  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,370
    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    "Thanks. I'm finding it hard enough to sell my house at the moment as it is."


    To be brutally honest, your inability to sell your house might be one of those severe consequences of Brexit. Property is gonna take a hi

    PWP
    T'internet tells me this means:

    Porn Without Plot (i.e. fanfiction and erotica)

    Erm, OK.
    there are plots?

    ( = price worth paying)
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    Guardian Editorial 26 September 1996:

    EVERY few years, the London Labour MP Jeremy Corbyn indulges his romantic support for Irish republicans by using his parliamentary privileges to give them a publicity platform. These occasions always also provide a showcase for Mr Corbyn's abiding qualities: his lack of wider political and moral judgment, his predilection for gesture politics, his insensitivity to the feelings of most Londoners and his indifference to the policies of his party.

    Now he has done it again, this time by inviting Gerry Adams to Westminster in a week in which London is still reeling from its narrow escape from a major bombing, at a time when the IRA's reversion to violence has been arguably the principal cause of the deterioration of the situation this year in Northern Ireland, at a time when Parliament is not even sitting, and in the days leading up to his party's important annual conference on the eve of an election which Labour has to win.

    Mr Corbyn's actions do not advance the cause of peace in Northern Ireland and are not seriously intended to do so. It is surprising that a politician as clever and important as the Sinn Fein leader should be bothered with him. Grown-up people ought to keep this childish sideshow in perspective.

    Mr Corbyn is a fool, and a fool whom the Labour Party would probably be better off without. However, even fools have rights. As an elected MP Mr Corbyn is entitled to invite whom he pleases to Westminster, certainly including Mr Adams. The parliamentary authorities, let alone the Government, have no business trying to prevent him from doing so. It comes pretty ill from Conservative MPs, some of whom treat Westminster as a pig's trough for their own commercial clients, to pontificate about Mr Corbyn's judgment when their own is hardly any better.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/6cn1fc/incredible_1996_guardian_leader_on_the_ira_mr/
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,941

    I think it was ComRes that found that 24% of over 65s respondents had already voted. So a lot of these votes are presumably already in the bag for the Conservatives.

    We're looking at partial exits on he 65+ age group then aren't we ?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,440
    For a Corbyn minority Government to be viable, Labour need to gain at least 30 seats. For example, rough and ready: Corbyn's 262 seats + SNP 46 + LD on 4 + Green on 1 + SDLP on 4 + PC on 3 = 320 seats, which beats Tories 300 + DUP 8 + UUP 2 = 310 seats.

    That means Labour gaining places like Lincoln, Peterborough and Southampton Itchen.

    Given the UKIP + CON scores in those constituencies (of 55%+) and few remaining centre-left voters to draw on, Corbyn isn't going to take any of them without significant direct switching from Con-Lab, of which there is very little evidence.
  • Options
    PeterMannionPeterMannion Posts: 712

    I agree with Paxo

    Don't let the retired vote

    As long as the no-representation is balanced by no-taxation, you might be on to something.
    How about a free tv licence?!
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,440

    I agree with Paxo

    Don't let the retired vote

    This view of stopping voters who don't agree with you from voting seems to be rather common amongst the Left here, as it is amongst many Republicans in the US.

    On the continent, retirees are more Europhile than the youth.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    I have just heard Corbyn on Womans hour.. Car crash yes but not a complete car crash, at least he didn't try and bluff the numbers like Diane)
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    FPT

    Corbyn needs to roll out a good old-fashioned "1 week to save the NHS" campaign IMO.

    Ah the typical blind panic card for Labour.... things must be getting bad again.
    You call it "blind panic", I call it "playing to your strengths" -- just as May has done today with Brexit. It's commonsense to try to steer the dominant topic of conversation on to ground where your party has the advantage.

    In any case, while the NHS isn't enough on its own to get success for Labour, it's certainly a necessary part of any successful Labour campaign. Even in 1997, although Labour didn't talk much about the NHS for much of the campaign, they suddenly made it their main focal point in the last few days.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783

    Pretty sure they can have a 50p tax rate already can't they?
    They can do all of that already....this is their excuse for not doing it:

    Until such time as the Scottish Parliament controls the rules on income tax avoidance, there is a risk that an increase in the Additional Rate of income tax in Scotland alone would lead to a loss of revenue.

    However, we support an increase in the Additional Rate from 45p to 50p across the UK as a whole from 2018/19.

    At a time when household budgets are under increasing pressure, SNP MPs will oppose any proposed increases in Value Added Tax or National Insurance.


    https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/thesnp/pages/9544/attachments/original/1496139998/Manifesto_2017.pdf?1496139998
  • Options
    JasonJason Posts: 1,614

    For a Corbyn minority Government to be viable, Labour need to gain at least 30 seats. For example, rough and ready: Corbyn's 262 seats + SNP 46 + LD on 4 + Green on 1 + SDLP on 4 + PC on 3 = 320 seats, which beats Tories 300 + DUP 8 + UUP 2 = 310 seats.

    That means Labour gaining places like Lincoln, Peterborough and Southampton Itchen.

    Given the UKIP + CON scores in those constituencies (of 55%+) and few remaining centre-left voters to draw on, Corbyn isn't going to take any of them without significant direct switching from Con-Lab, of which there is very little evidence.

    They'd have to poll 40% on election day to get those gains, close to Blair's landslide figure in 2001.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    *** Betting Post ***

    See previous thread if anyone's interested.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Further women's boost for Jez incoming, we know they like the "old seadog" look.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,524
    Pulpstar said:

    I think it was ComRes that found that 24% of over 65s respondents had already voted. So a lot of these votes are presumably already in the bag for the Conservatives.

    We're looking at partial exits on he 65+ age group then aren't we ?
    No. They ask you if you have already voted, if you have then they don't ask you the VI question
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,876
    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    "Thanks. I'm finding it hard enough to sell my house at the moment as it is."


    To be brutally honest, your inability to sell your house might be one of those severe consequences of Brexit. Property is gonna take a hi

    PWP
    T'internet tells me this means:

    Porn Without Plot (i.e. fanfiction and erotica)

    Erm, OK.
    Since when did fanfiction and erotica not have plot? Some times.
  • Options
    marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    Paul Harrison‏ @SkyNewsEditor

    Strange goings on at @UKLabour race & faith manifesto launch - Told: "no mainstream journalists" allowed #SpacePremium? - We are now in!
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,440

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    Hillary won the popular vote in a way that wasn't far off what the polling was showing, but hugely mismanaged her campaign in the marginal seats.

    Theresa May may be taking some of her base for granted, but she is campaigning where she needs to in order to maximise her seat tally. The biggest criticism that could be levelled is that it's too optimistic.

    I'll be looking very carefully at where she goes in the last 72 hours.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,876
    Scott_P said:
    I'm no fan of may, she's pretry crap, but Osbornes pieces show he has an active hate for her.
  • Options
    TMA1TMA1 Posts: 225
    Bevan... "Dont send me naked to the conference table"

    Good enough for him eh, Mr TSE?

    Just put the mind bleach away and put some yards in at being a seroius political commentator.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,440
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I'm no fan of may, she's pretry crap, but Osbornes pieces show he has an active hate for her.
    Osborne won't want Corbyn in power. But, he also holds grudges, and practices revenge.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    SNP manifesto - word count:

    Tory: 55
    Tories: 28
    Cuts: 28
    Education: 14
    austerity: 12
    Labour: 1
    Independence: 8
    referendum: 8
  • Options
    JasonJason Posts: 1,614

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I'm no fan of may, she's pretry crap, but Osbornes pieces show he has an active hate for her.
    Osborne won't want Corbyn in power. But, he also holds grudges, and practices revenge.
    Be interesting to see where his stance is on the eve of the election. A Tory editing a paper in a Labour stronghold. I really can't see him endorsing Labour, but who knows?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,524

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    Hillary won the popular vote in a way that wasn't far off what the polling was showing, but hugely mismanaged her campaign in the marginal seats.

    Theresa May may be taking some of her base for granted, but she is campaigning where she needs to in order to maximise her seat tally. The biggest criticism that could be levelled is that it's too optimistic.

    I'll be looking very carefully at where she goes in the last 72 hours.
    If it is a tepid majority then she's going to get in the neck for targeting places like, inter alia, Bolsover, Leeds East, and Perth and North Perthshire
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    edited May 2017
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I'm no fan of may, she's pretry crap, but Osbornes pieces show he has an active hate for her.

    Contempt, rather than hate, I'd say.

    He is going to enjoy the next few years.

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,876
    SeanT said:

    While we've all been bickering, there's been a significant evolution in Scotland. Sturgeon now says There will be no indyref2 til Brexit is completely done and dusted.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/30/sturgeon-steps-back-from-independence-referendum-demands

    Given that there will be loose EU ends to be tied, well into the early 2020s, no matter how we Brexit, she is basically admitting, I think, that indyref2 is off the agenda until 2023, possibly the late 2020s.

    She probably won't even be leader when it happens. And the SNP will have to win a majority at the next Holyrood election, or indeed the one after that.

    ThAt always seemed a sensible position, her Initial demand playing to the gallery, so I'm surprised at the chanGE, especially since the GE shows we could disrupt things with a campaign.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,440

    eek said:

    @SeanT from the last thread

    SeanT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    Gary Gibbon asks the obvious question.

    What possible deal could be worse than no deal?

    Well a deal where we handed over £50 trillion over the next 50 years certainly would be.
    Or handed over anything really. If we gave the EU 100 billion what stops them welshing on the deal after a year unless we pay another 100 billion?
    It would be a legally binding agreement, with some form of neutral arbitration at WTO level? I guess? I'm not an expert.

    And the EU is not actually asking for the money upfront, just an agreement to pay a fee, as and when we Brexit in 2019. But if they are not even willing to discuss the possibility of FTAs until we agree to a fixed sum, which seems insane, then again I see a Crash Brexit


    It's typical Germany negotiations - start at item 1 get a decision, then move on to item 2.


    The EU position is there needs to be progress on payments for other talks to begin. Progress is not defined. The member states will decide. Barnier has said he expects talks on a trade deal to begin in October/November - ie, on the other side of the German election.

    The parameters by which such payments might be calculated may have some measure of agreement by October/November, if the EU is willing to be serious, but the UK won't formally commit to any number.

    The serious talks start after Merkel's re-election. Prior to then it's our civil servants and diplomats nattering with their bureaucrats and diplomats, with a lot of political posturing on top.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,952
    Scott_P said:
    If he self identifies as black then I guess he is!
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,941
    edited May 2017

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    Hillary won the popular vote in a way that wasn't far off what the polling was showing, but hugely mismanaged her campaign in the marginal seats.

    Theresa May may be taking some of her base for granted, but she is campaigning where she needs to in order to maximise her seat tally. The biggest criticism that could be levelled is that it's too optimistic.

    I'll be looking very carefully at where she goes in the last 72 hours.
    If it is a tepid majority then she's going to get in the neck for targeting places like, inter alia, Bolsover, Leeds East, and Perth and North Perthshire
    Leeds East is the only "DEFINITELY NOT" from those above.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,756
    edited May 2017
    FPT

    In my view, there is an argument to pay a £20-£30 billion exit fee, and another £2-3bn net contributions, per year, in exchange for a good Brexit deal on goods and services, but, that isn't on offer and the deal we'd get is invisible.

    I think that's doable, although the annual fees will be a lot higher than that - possibly not very different from what we pay now, net - at least during the "transition" which could last a long time. ie we continue on roughly present terms until a promised FTA is in place. Both parties might see a benefit in not being hasty through the transition. It will take some shift in positions however.
    SeanT said:



    It would be a legally binding agreement, with some form of neutral arbitration at WTO level? I guess? I'm not an expert.

    And the EU is not actually asking for the money upfront, just an agreement to pay a fee, as and when we Brexit in 2019. But if they are not even willing to discuss the possibility of FTAs until we agree to a fixed sum, which seems insane, then again I see a Crash Brexit

    The point is to negotiate. We will never find out if we don't try.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,952

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I'm no fan of may, she's pretry crap, but Osbornes pieces show he has an active hate for her.
    Osborne won't want Corbyn in power. But, he also holds grudges, and practices revenge.
    Love the way he is seen as some kind of ruthless tough guy!

    He is a fat posh wimp
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,370
    edited May 2017
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    "Thanks. I'm finding it hard enough to sell my house at the moment as it is."


    To be brutally honest, your inability to sell your house might be one of those severe consequences of Brexit. Property is gonna take a hi

    PWP
    PWP???

    To be honest house prices are going to take a hit as I've been looking at moving for ages and everytime I do I just think not paying that for that.

    Likewise my parents looked at a 2 bed flat in South Bucks recently. Their reaction was we'll stick where we are and redo the bathrooms...
    The story of London property is looking at a 2-bed flat somewhere ghastly, refusing to pay the money being asked, and then, shortly afterwards berating yourself for not buying then and there as the area has "come up" and the flat is worth three times what it was selling for when you looked at it.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I'm no fan of may, she's pretry crap, but Osbornes pieces show he has an active hate for her.
    Osborne won't want Corbyn in power. But, he also holds grudges, and practices revenge.
    And burning bridges.....
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    Hillary won the popular vote in a way that wasn't far off what the polling was showing, but hugely mismanaged her campaign in the marginal seats.

    Theresa May may be taking some of her base for granted, but she is campaigning where she needs to in order to maximise her seat tally. The biggest criticism that could be levelled is that it's too optimistic.

    I'll be looking very carefully at where she goes in the last 72 hours.
    If it is a tepid majority then she's going to get in the neck for targeting places like, inter alia, Bolsover, Leeds East, and Perth and North Perthshire

    Is sending Andrea Leadsom to Bolsover targeting it?

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Thus extending the news cycle...

    @faisalislam: Mcdonnell hits back at Conservatives after Corbyn childcare costings gaffe: "The only numbers in the Tory manifesto are the page numbers" pic.twitter.com/VyHG66jW0C
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,440
    SeanT said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    "Thanks. I'm finding it hard enough to sell my house at the moment as it is."


    To be brutally honest, your inability to sell your house might be one of those severe consequences of Brexit. Property is gonna take a hi

    We have been unlucky. Others are selling, but we've had two solid offers that fell through, the most recent because our neighbour (very unhelpfully) put in a planning application that spooked the horses.

    We have now cut the price to a market leading one.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Osborne is no longer an active politician, but of course he's a super-astute commentator on UK politics. His editorials are absolutely top-notch. He's not pulling his punches, but he's not being unfair to Theresa May either; he's doing his job, and his job description no longer includes campaigning for the Tories.
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    TW1R64TW1R64 Posts: 56
    She was in Richmond campaigning with Zac yesterday. At the last election campaign Dave came to Twickenham and I thought he was wasting his time.

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    Hillary won the popular vote in a way that wasn't far off what the polling was showing, but hugely mismanaged her campaign in the marginal seats.

    Theresa May may be taking some of her base for granted, but she is campaigning where she needs to in order to maximise her seat tally. The biggest criticism that could be levelled is that it's too optimistic.

    I'll be looking very carefully at where she goes in the last 72 hours.
    If it is a tepid majority then she's going to get in the neck for targeting places like, inter alia, Bolsover, Leeds East, and Perth and North Perthshire
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,370
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I'm no fan of may, she's pretry crap, but Osbornes pieces show he has an active hate for her.
    Plus hasn't there been a landmark speech on it today by Tezza? Enough to impress Dan Hodges.

    Anyone have a link to the transcript, btw?
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    TypoTypo Posts: 195
    Pulpstar said:

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    Hillary won the popular vote in a way that wasn't far off what the polling was showing, but hugely mismanaged her campaign in the marginal seats.

    Theresa May may be taking some of her base for granted, but she is campaigning where she needs to in order to maximise her seat tally. The biggest criticism that could be levelled is that it's too optimistic.

    I'll be looking very carefully at where she goes in the last 72 hours.
    If it is a tepid majority then she's going to get in the neck for targeting places like, inter alia, Bolsover, Leeds East, and Perth and North Perthshire
    Leeds East is the only "DEFINITELY NOT" from those above.
    Are they really campaigning in Leeds East? Leeds North East I could understand.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,524

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    Hillary won the popular vote in a way that wasn't far off what the polling was showing, but hugely mismanaged her campaign in the marginal seats.

    Theresa May may be taking some of her base for granted, but she is campaigning where she needs to in order to maximise her seat tally. The biggest criticism that could be levelled is that it's too optimistic.

    I'll be looking very carefully at where she goes in the last 72 hours.
    If it is a tepid majority then she's going to get in the neck for targeting places like, inter alia, Bolsover, Leeds East, and Perth and North Perthshire

    Is sending Andrea Leadsom to Bolsover targeting it?

    Jury's still out on that.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    Osborne is no longer an active politician, but of course he's a super-astute commentator on UK politics. His editorials are absolutely top-notch. He's not pulling his punches, but he's not being unfair to Theresa May either; he's doing his job, and his job description no longer includes campaigning for the Tories.

    He should, however, try to appear less bitter that he was sacked - which is what he is risking at the moment.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,524
    TW1R64 said:

    She was in Richmond campaigning with Zac yesterday. At the last election campaign Dave came to Twickenham and I thought he was wasting his time.

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    Hillary won the popular vote in a way that wasn't far off what the polling was showing, but hugely mismanaged her campaign in the marginal seats.

    Theresa May may be taking some of her base for granted, but she is campaigning where she needs to in order to maximise her seat tally. The biggest criticism that could be levelled is that it's too optimistic.

    I'll be looking very carefully at where she goes in the last 72 hours.
    If it is a tepid majority then she's going to get in the neck for targeting places like, inter alia, Bolsover, Leeds East, and Perth and North Perthshire
    I really didn't like her campaigning for Zac.

    I know it boiled the piss of a few Tories.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,876
    Scott_P said:

    Thus extending the news cycle...

    @faisalislam: Mcdonnell hits back at Conservatives after Corbyn childcare costings gaffe: "The only numbers in the Tory manifesto are the page numbers" pic.twitter.com/VyHG66jW0C

    A good line though. Though since the tories are promising a lot less largesse, less critical to the plans to have numbers, though they should.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Instead, the economic risks are all on the UK side. “British exports of goods and services would shrink very sharply,” say the CER authors. “The hit to exports and to the attractiveness of the UK as a place to invest would in all likelihood provoke a sharp fall in the value of sterling.” This would lead to a rise in inflation, the erosion of disposable incomes, a fall in consumption and a deep recession.

    Mrs May’s threat to walk away with no deal is the political equivalent of Britain shooting itself in the foot — or worse. The EU’s leaders know this and, as a negotiating tactic, it does not trouble them at all. What is far more worrying is that many Conservatives continue to view a descent into WTO rules as an attractive option. The more Mrs May utters her mantra that “no deal is better than a bad deal”, the more emboldened these Conservatives will feel. 


    https://www.ft.com/content/9a1109a0-452c-11e7-8d27-59b4dd6296b8
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    isam said:

    Scott_P said:
    If he self identifies as black then I guess he is!
    No. If he self-identifies as black, then he needs serious amounts of psychiatric care. That level of delusion would not be indicative of good mental health.
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    TMA1TMA1 Posts: 225

    Pretty sure they can have a 50p tax rate already can't they?
    Thats his point isnt it?
    When you have devolution whats the point of promises like this. And if you are a clear minoriryvparty in westminster what power influence do you have... except over a coalition with labour.
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    I agree with Paxo

    Don't let the retired vote

    I'd prefer not to let anyone but net-contributors vote.
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,315
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I'm no fan of may, she's pretry crap, but Osbornes pieces show he has an active hate for her.
    I can understand how Ozzy feels: Theresa didn't just sack him, she publicly humiliated him and trashed his reputation. Now Theresa's followers are expecting him to cheer lead. Why would he be minded to do that?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    She's worried that her demand for an instant indyref is not going down well with Scots voters at this election (and the polls imply she's right)

    The most striking thing about the manifesto is that she doesn't appear on the cover. The last one was just her, on every page.

    She is less popular than the cause now
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,876
    edited May 2017
    TW1R64 said:

    She was in Richmond campaigning with Zac yesterday. At the last election campaign Dave came to Twickenham and I thought he was wasting his time.

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    Hillary won the popular vote in a way that wasn't far off what the polling was showing, but hugely mismanaged her campaign in the marginal seats.

    Theresa May may be taking some of her base for granted, but she is campaigning where she needs to in order to maximise her seat tally. The biggest criticism that could be levelled is that it's too optimistic.

    I'll be looking very carefully at where she goes in the last 72 hours.
    If it is a tepid majority then she's going to get in the neck for targeting places like, inter alia, Bolsover, Leeds East, and Perth and North Perthshire
    Yes but the polls should have told us all ld seats were vulnerable. If the polls are right now, a lot of places targeted are still just dreams as potential gains. Unless ICM still show a huge lead and proven right.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,440

    Didn't Hillary also have a firewall.

    That turned out to be as brilliant a defence as The Maginot Line.

    Hillary won the popular vote in a way that wasn't far off what the polling was showing, but hugely mismanaged her campaign in the marginal seats.

    Theresa May may be taking some of her base for granted, but she is campaigning where she needs to in order to maximise her seat tally. The biggest criticism that could be levelled is that it's too optimistic.

    I'll be looking very carefully at where she goes in the last 72 hours.
    If it is a tepid majority then she's going to get in the neck for targeting places like, inter alia, Bolsover, Leeds East, and Perth and North Perthshire
    Bolsover seems ambitious, but I'm not privy to the numbers.

    It's possible we'll see unexpected gains in places, whilst other "easier" targets stay Red.

    I agree that she's damaged goods if she gets a tepid majority, but she'll still stick around.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
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    murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,040
    Scott_P said:

    Thus extending the news cycle...

    @faisalislam: Mcdonnell hits back at Conservatives after Corbyn childcare costings gaffe: "The only numbers in the Tory manifesto are the page numbers" pic.twitter.com/VyHG66jW0C

    Haha - good one by McMao!
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,876
    Scott_P said:
    Good man. Puts focus entirely on may.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    I'm starting to doubt my prediction of a Tory majority of only 50, with only 18 Tory gains from Labour :(
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,440
    Scott_P said:
    He (and they) are much more confident now.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    May was, of course, trolling the Labour left with those comments, which consciously ape Bevan's still-controversial 1957 conference speech.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,876

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I'm no fan of may, she's pretry crap, but Osbornes pieces show he has an active hate for her.
    I can understand how Ozzy feels: Theresa didn't just sack him, she publicly humiliated him and trashed his reputation. Now Theresa's followers are expecting him to cheer lead. Why would he be minded to do that?
    Oh I agree , but I question his analysis somewhat as a result.
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    Pulpstar said:

    I think it was ComRes that found that 24% of over 65s respondents had already voted. So a lot of these votes are presumably already in the bag for the Conservatives.

    We're looking at partial exits on he 65+ age group then aren't we ?
    No. They ask you if you have already voted, if you have then they don't ask you the VI question
    Eh? I thought they didn't ask the likelihood to vote question, not the VI.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,756
    FF43 said:

    I think that's doable, although the annual fees will be a lot higher than that - possibly not very different from what we pay now, net - at least during the "transition" which could last a long time. ie we continue on roughly present terms until a promised FTA is in place. Both parties might see a benefit in not being hasty through the transition. It will take some shift in positions however.

    It's the salesman's presumptive close "How would you like to pay?" If the EU wants cash from us, then we would have quite a lot of leeway over how it gets paid and we can expect to get a return. The main effect of Brexit is a big loss of influence for the UK. We will be looking to get some of it back. If we are funding a chunk of the EU we get the interest of the members who will be aware that the tap could be switched off. It's not necessarily a question of being forced to pay out. We might want to, if we can get things in return.

This discussion has been closed.