Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s the economy, stupid. And Team Corbyn aren’t stupid.

SystemSystem Posts: 11,698
edited May 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s the economy, stupid. And Team Corbyn aren’t stupid.

It may all end in tears but for now the diverse team of Corbyn fans and old media sweats who make the Leader of the Opposition comms team can pride themselves on helping the party and their leader to narrow the yawning gap in the polls since Theresa May called the snap election the best part of a month ago.

Read the full story here


«1345678

Comments

  • Options
    First ..... again!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    First ..... again!

    You said you had gone to bed! :o Lulled me into a false sense of security. :(
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,368
    edited May 2017
    Third

    We know to approach Mr Brind's in-campaign reports with appropriate caution.

    If Angela Rayner is the answer I would worry about the question.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    The only thing that could make Labour's economic plans more risible is if they put Abbott in the treasury. You may have been the victim of an overnight marble robbery Mr Brind!

  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    If Labour are going to focus on the economy we are going to see much more of John McDonnell. Best to wait until all the questions about past IRA links have died down before that, I would have thought.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,368
    FPT: on polls, we have never had an election with such starkly age-differentiated voting patterns, yet our pollsters are all trying out different ways of deciding who will vote, often using historically derived models to override what their respondents actually say. It is hard to see this ending well?
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    FPT on Abbott MCDonnell and Corbyn

    I think a lot more young voters will vote this time round, even tho abolition of tuition fees won't happen as Labour cannot win with Corbyn Abbott and McDonnell. Its like asking sensible voters to eat a sarni with their three most disliked fillings all in the same sarni..
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,368

    FPT on Abbott MCDonnell and Corbyn

    I think a lot more young voters will vote this time round, even tho abolition of tuition fees won't happen as Labour cannot win with Corbyn Abbott and McDonnell. Its like asking sensible voters to eat a sarni with their three most disliked fillings all in the same sarni..

    Thats my feeling as well. Plus Labour's ground game mounted by its large membership will give them a better chance of dragging people out where it matters. This may be the first election where the polls, by using old rather than contemporary data, underestimate the Labour share.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,196
    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    May hasn't had a great campaign, but given that her poll rating hasn't gone down much it's hard to say it's been objectively bad.

    What is clear is that Corbyn has had a good war - tribal loyalty, freebies, and carefully targeted giveaways are popular. Who'd have thought? Not a realistic programme for government, of course, but enough to haul in s bushel of votes
  • Options
    What percentage of 18 to 24 yr olds are affected by tuition fees ?
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited May 2017
    IanB2 said:

    FPT on Abbott MCDonnell and Corbyn

    I think a lot more young voters will vote this time round, even tho abolition of tuition fees won't happen as Labour cannot win with Corbyn Abbott and McDonnell. Its like asking sensible voters to eat a sarni with their three most disliked fillings all in the same sarni..

    Thats my feeling as well. Plus Labour's ground game mounted by its large membership will give them a better chance of dragging people out where it matters. This may be the first election where the polls, by using old rather than contemporary data, underestimate the Labour share.
    I agree. I think ICM are wrong with their turnout weightings. In this election, the young will vote.

    I think the real explanation is going to be;

    Lots of young people didn't want brexit, but never quite got around to voting remain. The result was so close, the consequences so severe. They're angry at brexit, when they should have been angry at themselves.

    This time, they will vote.

  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    What percentage of 18 to 24 yr olds are affected by tuition fees ?

    About half of 18 - 20 year olds.
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    What percentage of 18 to 24 yr olds are affected by tuition fees ?

    Tony Blair had a target of 50%going to uni.

    Either at our were at uni they are affected
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    IanB2 said:

    FPT on Abbott MCDonnell and Corbyn

    I think a lot more young voters will vote this time round, even tho abolition of tuition fees won't happen as Labour cannot win with Corbyn Abbott and McDonnell. Its like asking sensible voters to eat a sarni with their three most disliked fillings all in the same sarni..

    Thats my feeling as well. Plus Labour's ground game mounted by its large membership will give them a better chance of dragging people out where it matters. This may be the first election where the polls, by using old rather than contemporary data, underestimate the Labour share.
    Hm, where have we heard this before... "four million conversations".
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    philiph said:

    What percentage of 18 to 24 yr olds are affected by tuition fees ?

    Tony Blair had a target of 50%going to uni.

    Either at our were at uni they are affected
    I'd bet those that have just finished aren't best pleased that they not only have to pay their own fees, but have to pay that of others through taxation. I'm amazed that Labour are so keen on this, given it is a regressive policy that makes the poorer taxpayer pay for the middle class to go to university.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    surbiton said:

    What percentage of 18 to 24 yr olds are affected by tuition fees ?

    About half of 18 - 20 year olds.
    Thoigh Fox jr is past the point of benefiting from free university, he feels very angry about it. It is the issue that shifted his vote to Labour. Previously he was planning to vote LD because of Brexit, and yes he did vote in the referendum.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,196
    Taken a bit longer than normal, but the BBC is on to talking about the real threat to our society: The Far Right.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    surbiton said:

    What percentage of 18 to 24 yr olds are affected by tuition fees ?

    About half of 18 - 20 year olds.
    It is also the half that turnout to vote.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    surbiton said:

    What percentage of 18 to 24 yr olds are affected by tuition fees ?

    About half of 18 - 20 year olds.
    It is also the half that turnout to vote.
    If they already turn out to vote, that suggests any further increase will only have a small impact.
  • Options
    JennyFreemanJennyFreeman Posts: 488
    Another leftie rant on here.

    May will win a landslide on June 8th, partly because she's the only trustworthy leader and partly because the Conservatives have the best record on the economy. High levels of taxation do not produce wealth, but having to demolish the arguments of Marxists such as Don Brind is like entering a 1970's timewarp.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited May 2017
    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    This will get more pronounced in the coming months. WC families are already feeling the pinch. The falling pound undoubtedly helped exports [ great for my firm ] but it is also increasing input costs and ultimately prices in the shops.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
  • Options
    JennyFreemanJennyFreeman Posts: 488
    Charles said:



    What is clear is that Corbyn has had a good war

    Let's make that call on June 9th. I'm far from convinced that he's had a good war. I'm expecting Labour to take a hammering.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    If Labour are relying on teenagers they are deluded. Time and again I hear that this time they'll vote, they don't and they won't. And if they do there is no reason to suppose they'll vote Labour, their tory voting parents will be every bit as persuasive.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    This will get more pronounced in the coming months. WC families are already feeling the pinch. The falling pound undoubtedly helped exports [ great for my firm ] but it is also increasing input costs and ultimately prices in the shops.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    Wage growth is low because we insist on importing people to work for low wages. If you flood the market with jobseekers wages remain low.

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Angela Rayner would be a combatative performer in the debate, but Labour should also consider Thornberry. Ashworth has been much more confident with the media too.

    Labour needs to get the discussion back to the question "Who wants 5 more years of austerity and cuts?" and away from foreign and security policy.

    I am seeing a fair bit from LDs on Amber Rudds internet censorship, I think that will be there theme. It may well work on the net, but the telly audience is different. Older and less tech savvy viewers may well swallow Rudd's nonsense.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,776

    If Labour are relying on teenagers they are deluded. Time and again I hear that this time they'll vote, they don't and they won't. And if they do there is no reason to suppose they'll vote Labour, their tory voting parents will be every bit as persuasive.

    And when were they last offered a £30k incentive to vote ?

  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Charles said:



    What is clear is that Corbyn has had a good war

    Let's make that call on June 9th. I'm far from convinced that he's had a good war. I'm expecting Labour to take a hammering.
    But if the hammering is less than was widely perceived at the start of the campaign then it will be portrayed as a success.

  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,196
    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    If Don had said something like "inflation has risen (to target levels, btw) recently meaning it could squeeze living standards over the next few years", then that would be fine.

    Incidentally, if inflation does get about 3% the BoE might actually have to grow a pair and put up interest rates.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Pong said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT on Abbott MCDonnell and Corbyn

    I think a lot more young voters will vote this time round, even tho abolition of tuition fees won't happen as Labour cannot win with Corbyn Abbott and McDonnell. Its like asking sensible voters to eat a sarni with their three most disliked fillings all in the same sarni..

    Thats my feeling as well. Plus Labour's ground game mounted by its large membership will give them a better chance of dragging people out where it matters. This may be the first election where the polls, by using old rather than contemporary data, underestimate the Labour share.
    I agree. I think ICM are wrong with their turnout weightings. In this election, the young will vote.

    I think the real explanation is going to be;

    Lots of young people didn't want brexit, but never quite got around to voting remain. The result was so close, the consequences so severe. They're angry at brexit, when they should have been angry at themselves.

    This time, they will vote.

    I suggest everyone reads Martin Boon's article [ of ICM ]about weightings. His point is basically this:

    Most of the time, pollsters get a similar sample. The question is what they do with it.

    The samples, for whatever reason, are Labour biased. The different pollsters do different adjustments.

    The crucial one is to decide "Likelihood to vote" vs "Previous election vote"

    All have made changes in their methodology. Some more than others. In Martin Boon's own words that is the difference between Yougov's 5% and ICM's 14%

    Mind boggles.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Nigelb said:

    If Labour are relying on teenagers they are deluded. Time and again I hear that this time they'll vote, they don't and they won't. And if they do there is no reason to suppose they'll vote Labour, their tory voting parents will be every bit as persuasive.

    And when were they last offered a £30k incentive to vote ?

    That's the type of nonsense that loses Labour elections:

    Vote for us and we'll give you £30k
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I think ICM are basically right on the turnout of previous non-voters. When I get time I'll write a thread header on this.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    tlg86 said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    If Don had said something like "inflation has risen (to target levels, btw) recently meaning it could squeeze living standards over the next few years", then that would be fine.

    Incidentally, if inflation does get about 3% the BoE might actually have to grow a pair and put up interest rates.
    But until wage growth catches up, living standards will fall. It is simple arithmetic. Someone has to articulate that. Bill Clinton would have done perfectly in about 90 seconds. But he is not here.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    Nigelb said:

    If Labour are relying on teenagers they are deluded. Time and again I hear that this time they'll vote, they don't and they won't. And if they do there is no reason to suppose they'll vote Labour, their tory voting parents will be every bit as persuasive.

    And when were they last offered a £30k incentive to vote ?

    That's the type of nonsense that loses Labour elections:

    Vote for us and we'll give you £30k
    It's a middle-class bung. Notice they are doing it while keeping all the evil Tory benefit cuts.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    I think ICM are basically right on the turnout of previous non-voters. When I get time I'll write a thread header on this.

    Please do, I am very interested in hearing your thoughts!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited May 2017
    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    What percentage of 18 to 24 yr olds are affected by tuition fees ?

    About half of 18 - 20 year olds.
    It is also the half that turnout to vote.
    If they already turn out to vote, that suggests any further increase will only have a small impact.
    Not nessecarily. There is a big swing to Labour in this age range. Corbyn appeals in a way that Milliband did not.

    The other reason is that May offers nothing but a future of misery for young people. There is no hope or vision in the Tory manifesto or front bench. Corbynism may be unrealistic and poorly thought through, but has some ambition for a better society.
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    This will get more pronounced in the coming months. WC families are already feeling the pinch. The falling pound undoubtedly helped exports [ great for my firm ] but it is also increasing input costs and ultimately prices in the shops.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    Wage growth is low because we insist on importing people to work for low wages. If you flood the market with jobseekers wages remain low.

    And the minimum wage prevents competition at the bottom.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:



    What is clear is that Corbyn has had a good war

    Let's make that call on June 9th. I'm far from convinced that he's had a good war. I'm expecting Labour to take a hammering.
    He's been good at raising the levies, but they may not turn up on the day...
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    If Labour are relying on teenagers they are deluded. Time and again I hear that this time they'll vote, they don't and they won't. And if they do there is no reason to suppose they'll vote Labour, their tory voting parents will be every bit as persuasive.

    And when were they last offered a £30k incentive to vote ?

    That's the type of nonsense that loses Labour elections:

    Vote for us and we'll give you £30k
    It's a middle-class bung. Notice they are doing it while keeping all the evil Tory benefit cuts.
    Of course.

    I'm not entirely sure who the middle class are anymore but they're savvy enough to smell a rat. Teenagers aren't but they can't be bothered to vote.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    philiph said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    This will get more pronounced in the coming months. WC families are already feeling the pinch. The falling pound undoubtedly helped exports [ great for my firm ] but it is also increasing input costs and ultimately prices in the shops.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    Wage growth is low because we insist on importing people to work for low wages. If you flood the market with jobseekers wages remain low.

    And the minimum wage prevents competition at the bottom.
    Correct, in many cases the minimum wage is actually the maximum wage
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    If Don had said something like "inflation has risen (to target levels, btw) recently meaning it could squeeze living standards over the next few years", then that would be fine.

    Incidentally, if inflation does get about 3% the BoE might actually have to grow a pair and put up interest rates.
    But until wage growth catches up, living standards will fall. It is simple arithmetic. Someone has to articulate that. Bill Clinton would have done perfectly in about 90 seconds. But he is not here.
    At least under the Tories people will have a wage. Labour government spells unemployment, without fail.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    This will get more pronounced in the coming months. WC families are already feeling the pinch. The falling pound undoubtedly helped exports [ great for my firm ] but it is also increasing input costs and ultimately prices in the shops.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    Wage growth is low because we insist on importing people to work for low wages. If you flood the market with jobseekers wages remain low.

    Whatever the reason, since about March and certainly from April, wage growth for the vast majority of people is now lower than inflation. In the next few months, the gap will get wider.

    Maybe, that is why May called the election. The window is not so good for the next 18 months [ on top of any Brexit surprises to come ]. Most economies have been lucky for the last 8 years with zero or very low inflation and as such have got away with low wage rises.

    That is coming to an end in the UK, at least.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    What percentage of 18 to 24 yr olds are affected by tuition fees ?

    About half of 18 - 20 year olds.
    It is also the half that turnout to vote.
    If they already turn out to vote, that suggests any further increase will only have a small impact.
    Not nessecarily. There is a big swing to Labour in this age range. Corbyn appeals in a way that Milliband did not.

    The other reason is that May offers nothing but a future of misery for young people. There is no hope or vision in the Tory manifesto or front bench. Corbynism may be unrealistic and poorly thought through, but has some ambition for a better society.
    yes the young have no hope.. not even for a winter fuel bung.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    This will get more pronounced in the coming months. WC families are already feeling the pinch. The falling pound undoubtedly helped exports [ great for my firm ] but it is also increasing input costs and ultimately prices in the shops.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    Wage growth is low because we insist on importing people to work for low wages. If you flood the market with jobseekers wages remain low.

    Whatever the reason, since about March and certainly from April, wage growth for the vast majority of people is now lower than inflation. In the next few months, the gap will get wider.

    Maybe, that is why May called the election. The window is not so good for the next 18 months [ on top of any Brexit surprises to come ]. Most economies have been lucky for the last 8 years with zero or very low inflation and as such have got away with low wage rises.

    That is coming to an end in the UK, at least.
    "Whatever the reason"

    One of the main reasons Labour lost the election in 2015 is because they failed to address immigration, ditto why Remain lost. If ten people apply for a barista's job the cafe owner can keep wages low. Its unarguable.
  • Options
    midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    This will get more pronounced in the coming months. WC families are already feeling the pinch. The falling pound undoubtedly helped exports [ great for my firm ] but it is also increasing input costs and ultimately prices in the shops.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    Wage growth is low because we insist on importing people to work for low wages. If you flood the market with jobseekers wages remain low.

    Didn't wage rises and immigration fall in the last quarter?
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    If Don had said something like "inflation has risen (to target levels, btw) recently meaning it could squeeze living standards over the next few years", then that would be fine.

    Incidentally, if inflation does get about 3% the BoE might actually have to grow a pair and put up interest rates.
    But until wage growth catches up, living standards will fall. It is simple arithmetic. Someone has to articulate that. Bill Clinton would have done perfectly in about 90 seconds. But he is not here.
    At least under the Tories people will have a wage. Labour government spells unemployment, without fail.
    Usual puff talk. But it is quite clear, you are not denying the central premise. Living standards will fall over the coming months. The reason is simple. Falling pound finally started to increase costs.

    In line with this retail sales have started to fall quite quickly as part of consumers tightening their belts.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2017/apr/21/french-markets-in-focus-as-weekend-election-looms-business-live
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,368
    edited May 2017
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    This will get more pronounced in the coming months. WC families are already feeling the pinch. The falling pound undoubtedly helped exports [ great for my firm ] but it is also increasing input costs and ultimately prices in the shops.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    Wage growth is low because we insist on importing people to work for low wages. If you flood the market with jobseekers wages remain low.

    Whatever the reason, since about March and certainly from April, wage growth for the vast majority of people is now lower than inflation. In the next few months, the gap will get wider.

    Maybe, that is why May called the election. The window is not so good for the next 18 months [ on top of any Brexit surprises to come ]. Most economies have been lucky for the last 8 years with zero or very low inflation and as such have got away with low wage rises.

    That is coming to an end in the UK, at least.
    I agree with you surbiton. I think the outlook for the economy and the need for a transitional, longer, Brexit deal were the two reasons for the election, with the shorter term political stuff being less relevant. We are entering a short period (and possibly an extended period) where inflation will rise above both earnings growth and interest rates, which in effect means that real interest rates will be negative. That this latter situation is so attractive in reducing the absolute levels of debt is why I think it may well persist for longer than people expect.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    What percentage of 18 to 24 yr olds are affected by tuition fees ?

    About half of 18 - 20 year olds.
    It is also the half that turnout to vote.
    If they already turn out to vote, that suggests any further increase will only have a small impact.
    Not nessecarily. There is a big swing to Labour in this age range. Corbyn appeals in a way that Milliband did not.

    The other reason is that May offers nothing but a future of misery for young people. There is no hope or vision in the Tory manifesto or front bench. Corbynism may be unrealistic and poorly thought through, but has some ambition for a better society.
    But there's also been a swing against Labour amongst older voters, which would cancel this out if the tuition bung enthuses voters who would have already voted in any case.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137

    If Labour are going to focus on the economy we are going to see much more of John McDonnell. Best to wait until all the questions about past IRA links have died down before that, I would have thought.

    So not before 9th June then....

    But don't worry, if Labour can't put up Abbot or McDonnell, because their past in quotes comes back to haunt them, I'm sure they have strength in depth amongst Corbyn's Numpties...
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    If Don had said something like "inflation has risen (to target levels, btw) recently meaning it could squeeze living standards over the next few years", then that would be fine.

    Incidentally, if inflation does get about 3% the BoE might actually have to grow a pair and put up interest rates.
    But until wage growth catches up, living standards will fall. It is simple arithmetic. Someone has to articulate that. Bill Clinton would have done perfectly in about 90 seconds. But he is not here.
    At least under the Tories people will have a wage. Labour government spells unemployment, without fail.
    Usual puff talk. But it is quite clear, you are not denying the central premise. Living standards will fall over the coming months. The reason is simple. Falling pound finally started to increase costs.

    In line with this retail sales have started to fall quite quickly as part of consumers tightening their belts.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2017/apr/21/french-markets-in-focus-as-weekend-election-looms-business-live
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/18/uk-retail-sales-best-forecasts-despite-pay-squeeze

    Despite brexit? :smiley:
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I think ICM are basically right on the turnout of previous non-voters. When I get time I'll write a thread header on this.

    surbiton said:

    Pong said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT on Abbott MCDonnell and Corbyn

    I think a lot more young voters will vote this time round, even tho abolition of tuition fees won't happen as Labour cannot win with Corbyn Abbott and McDonnell. Its like asking sensible voters to eat a sarni with their three most disliked fillings all in the same sarni..

    Thats my feeling as well. Plus Labour's ground game mounted by its large membership will give them a better chance of dragging people out where it matters. This may be the first election where the polls, by using old rather than contemporary data, underestimate the Labour share.
    I agree. I think ICM are wrong with their turnout weightings. In this election, the young will vote.

    I think the real explanation is going to be;

    Lots of young people didn't want brexit, but never quite got around to voting remain. The result was so close, the consequences so severe. They're angry at brexit, when they should have been angry at themselves.

    This time, they will vote.

    I suggest everyone reads Martin Boon's article [ of ICM ]about weightings. His point is basically this:

    Most of the time, pollsters get a similar sample. The question is what they do with it.

    The samples, for whatever reason, are Labour biased. The different pollsters do different adjustments.

    The crucial one is to decide "Likelihood to vote" vs "Previous election vote"

    All have made changes in their methodology. Some more than others. In Martin Boon's own words that is the difference between Yougov's 5% and ICM's 14%

    Mind boggles.
    No amount of post polling adjustment makes up for a biased sample. It is just pollsters fiddling their results to their own assumptions. They may well guess correctly, but it is still a guess.

    Personally I think the best utility is looking at the unweighted samples and their shifts and trends over time.

    My guess FWIW is that the Tory lead is about 10%ish.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    midwinter said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    This will get more pronounced in the coming months. WC families are already feeling the pinch. The falling pound undoubtedly helped exports [ great for my firm ] but it is also increasing input costs and ultimately prices in the shops.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    Wage growth is low because we insist on importing people to work for low wages. If you flood the market with jobseekers wages remain low.

    Didn't wage rises and immigration fall in the last quarter?
    No idea, what is for sure is that the population rises every year. More people looking for jobs means lower wages.

    Its why doctors get paid more than labourers.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,368
    midwinter said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    This will get more pronounced in the coming months. WC families are already feeling the pinch. The falling pound undoubtedly helped exports [ great for my firm ] but it is also increasing input costs and ultimately prices in the shops.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    Wage growth is low because we insist on importing people to work for low wages. If you flood the market with jobseekers wages remain low.

    Didn't wage rises and immigration fall in the last quarter?
    immigration was pretty level; emigration of EU nationals rose.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited May 2017
    Youth turnout can surge but Labour will be swamped by the grey vote. For a start there are only 5.7 million 18-24 year olds and 11 million aged 65+. Have you seen the support the tories are getting with this group?

    What is more even if turnout for the young went from 43% to voting at te same rate of 78% for oldies (nope!) it will increase the lab vote by 1% and decrease the Tory vote by 1%, this is before you take into vote prefrence since 2015.

    The young are also concentrated in the big cities where Labour already have MP's. The polls that are showing 18-34 year olds liklihood to vote at 63% up from 43% in 2015 might be right but how likely is a 20% in young turnout surge in one GE ? Not very I would suggest. and as I've explained it would barely make a difference if it went to 78%, (which it wont).

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39965925
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,002
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: post-race ramble up here, with added cantankerousness:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/monaco-post-race-analysis-2017.html

    Trying to work out how Canada will go. First couple of sectors are tight and twist which will suit Ferrari, but Mercedes will be very quick on the straights in sector three.

    On-topic: the Con vote share hasn't changed much. If it stays as is, May wins. That said, the manifesto was an abject lesson in hubris.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited May 2017

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    This will get more pronounced in the coming months. WC families are already feeling the pinch. The falling pound undoubtedly helped exports [ great for my firm ] but it is also increasing input costs and ultimately prices in the shops.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    Wage growth is low because we insist on importing people to work for low wages. If you flood the market with jobseekers wages remain low.

    Whatever the reason, since about March and certainly from April, wage growth for the vast majority of people is now lower than inflation. In the next few months, the gap will get wider.

    Maybe, that is why May called the election. The window is not so good for the next 18 months [ on top of any Brexit surprises to come ]. Most economies have been lucky for the last 8 years with zero or very low inflation and as such have got away with low wage rises.

    That is coming to an end in the UK, at least.
    "Whatever the reason"

    One of the main reasons Labour lost the election in 2015 is because they failed to address immigration, ditto why Remain lost. If ten people apply for a barista's job the cafe owner can keep wages low. Its unarguable.
    I don't think falling immigration will immediately increase wages. It might, but it could take 12 - 18 months. In any case, immigration by recent historical standards fell in the last quarter. Wage rates did not increase .

    But that is not good news for companies. Ultimately that also will push up inflation. The outlook for the next couple of years is not so good whichever way you look.

    Whether Labour has the ability to articulate this is another matter. Just stereotypically lambasting Tories will not do it.

    Unfortunately, the biggest victim of this is the WC, who we are being told are not happy with Labour. However, recent subsets tend to show that, Labour voters are returning home, in the North, Wales and West Midlands compared to a month back.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    IanB2 said:

    midwinter said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    This will get more pronounced in the coming months. WC families are already feeling the pinch. The falling pound undoubtedly helped exports [ great for my firm ] but it is also increasing input costs and ultimately prices in the shops.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    Wage growth is low because we insist on importing people to work for low wages. If you flood the market with jobseekers wages remain low.

    Didn't wage rises and immigration fall in the last quarter?
    immigration was pretty level; emigration of EU nationals rose.
    Though net immigration matters in terms of the job market.
  • Options
    saddosaddo Posts: 534
    I cannot see how a focus on the economy helps Labour. Anyone with half a brain cell looking at their manifesto can see it wrecks the UK economy in minutes of them getting into office.
  • Options
    IcarusIcarus Posts: 908
    It must be very difficult to get people to answer calls from pollsters. My wife won't answer phone calls from someone she doesn't know. I tend to answer but if there is silence -from auto dialling - then put the phone down.

    More and more people will be not bothering with a landline.

    What difference this makes I am not sure but surely increases probability of errors.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    saddo said:

    I cannot see how a focus on the economy helps Labour. Anyone with half a brain cell looking at their manifesto can see it wrecks the UK economy in minutes of them getting into office.

    Minutes? very generous :smiley:
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Icarus said:

    It must be very difficult to get people to answer calls from pollsters. My wife won't answer phone calls from someone she doesn't know. I tend to answer but if there is silence -from auto dialling - then put the phone down.

    More and more people will be not bothering with a landline.

    What difference this makes I am not sure but surely increases probability of errors.

    Very few use the phone now. I can only think of Survation.
  • Options
    CiceroCicero Posts: 2,252

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    This will get more pronounced in the coming months. WC families are already feeling the pinch. The falling pound undoubtedly helped exports [ great for my firm ] but it is also increasing input costs and ultimately prices in the shops.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    Wage growth is low because we insist on importing people to work for low wages. If you flood the market with jobseekers wages remain low.

    Importing people expanded GDP and increased productivity- most of the better performance of the U.K. Versus France in the early nineties can be put down to getting the "Polish plumbers" (and Lithuanian bankers). So now, in addition to the fall in overall GDP and productivity, we will now see the UK lose international competitiveness. Tech firms who used to get Estonian programmers will now relocate. The thing is that lost in the political bollocks put out by UKIP, is that the U.K. was a massive beneficiary form being an open society. Going anti-global is going to reverse much of the outperformance of the past 30 years.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,770

    At least under the Tories people will have a wage. Labour government spells unemployment, without fail.

    Hardly matches historical reality. Think of the unemployment in the eighties and the relatively better employment in the first decade of the millennium.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Charles said:



    What is clear is that Corbyn has had a good war

    Let's make that call on June 9th. I'm far from convinced that he's had a good war. I'm expecting Labour to take a hammering.
    The derision thrown at Corbyn from every quarter including me was palpable.I also expect Labour to take a hammering .However he is a good campaigner and in the main his calm demeanour has I think resonated with people open to give him a hearing.He has changed the debate in the country from a fixation on austerity as the only answer.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Icarus said:

    It must be very difficult to get people to answer calls from pollsters. My wife won't answer phone calls from someone she doesn't know. I tend to answer but if there is silence -from auto dialling - then put the phone down.

    More and more people will be not bothering with a landline.

    What difference this makes I am not sure but surely increases probability of errors.

    Most pollsters have gone to online panels for this reason.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    If Don had said something like "inflation has risen (to target levels, btw) recently meaning it could squeeze living standards over the next few years", then that would be fine.

    Incidentally, if inflation does get about 3% the BoE might actually have to grow a pair and put up interest rates.
    But until wage growth catches up, living standards will fall. It is simple arithmetic. Someone has to articulate that. Bill Clinton would have done perfectly in about 90 seconds. But he is not here.
    At least under the Tories people will have a wage. Labour government spells unemployment, without fail.
    Usual puff talk. But it is quite clear, you are not denying the central premise. Living standards will fall over the coming months. The reason is simple. Falling pound finally started to increase costs.

    In line with this retail sales have started to fall quite quickly as part of consumers tightening their belts.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2017/apr/21/french-markets-in-focus-as-weekend-election-looms-business-live
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/18/uk-retail-sales-best-forecasts-despite-pay-squeeze

    Despite brexit? :smiley:
    Brexit is the elephant in the room. You could argue that the fall in sterling itself is Brexit related.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    If Don had said something like "inflation has risen (to target levels, btw) recently meaning it could squeeze living standards over the next few years", then that would be fine.

    Incidentally, if inflation does get about 3% the BoE might actually have to grow a pair and put up interest rates.
    But until wage growth catches up, living standards will fall. It is simple arithmetic. Someone has to articulate that. Bill Clinton would have done perfectly in about 90 seconds. But he is not here.
    At least under the Tories people will have a wage. Labour government spells unemployment, without fail.
    Usual puff talk. But it is quite clear, you are not denying the central premise. Living standards will fall over the coming months. The reason is simple. Falling pound finally started to increase costs.

    In line with this retail sales have started to fall quite quickly as part of consumers tightening their belts.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2017/apr/21/french-markets-in-focus-as-weekend-election-looms-business-live
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/18/uk-retail-sales-best-forecasts-despite-pay-squeeze

    Despite brexit? :smiley:
    The slowdown in GDP for this year was mostly due to consumers reining in spending:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/banking

    Overdue in many ways as levels of debt are high. Student loans are going to be anincreasing drag on the economy as they take money out of the pockets of younger consumers, depressing demand.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited May 2017
    nunu said:

    Youth turnout can surge but Labour will be swamped by the grey vote. For a start there are only 5.7 million 18-24 year olds and 11 million aged 65+. Have you seen the support the tories are getting with this group?

    What is more even if turnout for the young went from 43% to voting at te same rate of 78% for oldies (nope!) it will increase the lab vote by 1% and decrease the Tory vote by 1%, this is before you take into vote prefrence since 2015.

    The young are also concentrated in the big cities where Labour already have MP's. The polls that are showing 18-34 year olds liklihood to vote at 63% up from 43% in 2015 might be right but how likely is a 20% in young turnout surge in one GE ? Not very I would suggest. and as I've explained it would barely make a difference if it went to 78%, (which it wont).

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39965925

    Labour support of 18-34 year olds is at 69% with tories at 12% too bad 65+ support the tories at 65% to 15% for Labour, and as there are millions more oldies, much higher voting rates and more evenly spread out in the marginals they count more.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    If Don had said something like "inflation has risen (to target levels, btw) recently meaning it could squeeze living standards over the next few years", then that would be fine.

    Incidentally, if inflation does get about 3% the BoE might actually have to grow a pair and put up interest rates.
    But until wage growth catches up, living standards will fall. It is simple arithmetic. Someone has to articulate that. Bill Clinton would have done perfectly in about 90 seconds. But he is not here.
    At least under the Tories people will have a wage. Labour government spells unemployment, without fail.
    Usual puff talk. But it is quite clear, you are not denying the central premise. Living standards will fall over the coming months. The reason is simple. Falling pound finally started to increase costs.

    In line with this retail sales have started to fall quite quickly as part of consumers tightening their belts.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2017/apr/21/french-markets-in-focus-as-weekend-election-looms-business-live
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/18/uk-retail-sales-best-forecasts-despite-pay-squeeze

    Despite brexit? :smiley:
    The slowdown in GDP for this year was mostly due to consumers reining in spending:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/banking

    Overdue in many ways as levels of debt are high. Student loans are going to be anincreasing drag on the economy as they take money out of the pockets of younger consumers, depressing demand.
    That money has to come from some pocket.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Youth turnout can surge but Labour will be swamped by the grey vote. For a start there are only 5.7 million 18-24 year olds and 11 million aged 65+. Have you seen the support the tories are getting with this group?

    What is more even if turnout for the young went from 43% to voting at te same rate of 78% for oldies (nope!) it will increase the lab vote by 1% and decrease the Tory vote by 1%, this is before you take into vote prefrence since 2015.

    The young are also concentrated in the big cities where Labour already have MP's. The polls that are showing 18-34 year olds liklihood to vote at 63% up from 43% in 2015 might be right but how likely is a 20% in young turnout surge in one GE ? Not very I would suggest. and as I've explained it would barely make a difference if it went to 78%, (which it wont).

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39965925

    Labour support of 18-34 year olds is at 69% with tories at 12% too bad 65+ support the tories at 65% to 15% for Labour, and as there are millions more oldies, much higher voting rates and more evenly spread out in the marginals they count more.
    Think you mean 18-24 for that 69/12 split. A six year window, whereas 65+ encompasses about 25-30 years.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Cicero said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    This will get more pronounced in the coming months. WC families are already feeling the pinch. The falling pound undoubtedly helped exports [ great for my firm ] but it is also increasing input costs and ultimately prices in the shops.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    Wage growth is low because we insist on importing people to work for low wages. If you flood the market with jobseekers wages remain low.

    Importing people expanded GDP and increased productivity- most of the better performance of the U.K. Versus France in the early nineties can be put down to getting the "Polish plumbers" (and Lithuanian bankers). So now, in addition to the fall in overall GDP and productivity, we will now see the UK lose international competitiveness. Tech firms who used to get Estonian programmers will now relocate. The thing is that lost in the political bollocks put out by UKIP, is that the U.K. was a massive beneficiary form being an open society. Going anti-global is going to reverse much of the outperformance of the past 30 years.
    A growth in GDP doesn't equal a growth in wages.

    In EVERY case the market always wins, the minimum wage and population increase has compressed wages. It might be unpalatable to some but its a fact.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,294
    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Youth turnout can surge but Labour will be swamped by the grey vote. For a start there are only 5.7 million 18-24 year olds and 11 million aged 65+. Have you seen the support the tories are getting with this group?

    What is more even if turnout for the young went from 43% to voting at te same rate of 78% for oldies (nope!) it will increase the lab vote by 1% and decrease the Tory vote by 1%, this is before you take into vote prefrence since 2015.

    The young are also concentrated in the big cities where Labour already have MP's. The polls that are showing 18-34 year olds liklihood to vote at 63% up from 43% in 2015 might be right but how likely is a 20% in young turnout surge in one GE ? Not very I would suggest. and as I've explained it would barely make a difference if it went to 78%, (which it wont).

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39965925

    Labour support of 18-34 year olds is at 69% with tories at 12% too bad 65+ support the tories at 65% to 15% for Labour, and as there are millions more oldies, much higher voting rates and more evenly spread out in the marginals they count more.
    Morning all,

    But have the oldies turned against May? The Dementia Tax was a disaster for the Tories in that respect. Many of them will have been using their postal votes just a day or two after the manifesto screw-up.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Youth turnout can surge but Labour will be swamped by the grey vote. For a start there are only 5.7 million 18-24 year olds and 11 million aged 65+. Have you seen the support the tories are getting with this group?

    What is more even if turnout for the young went from 43% to voting at te same rate of 78% for oldies (nope!) it will increase the lab vote by 1% and decrease the Tory vote by 1%, this is before you take into vote prefrence since 2015.

    The young are also concentrated in the big cities where Labour already have MP's. The polls that are showing 18-34 year olds liklihood to vote at 63% up from 43% in 2015 might be right but how likely is a 20% in young turnout surge in one GE ? Not very I would suggest. and as I've explained it would barely make a difference if it went to 78%, (which it wont).

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39965925

    Labour support of 18-34 year olds is at 69% with tories at 12% too bad 65+ support the tories at 65% to 15% for Labour, and as there are millions more oldies, much higher voting rates and more evenly spread out in the marginals they count more.
    Morning all,

    But have the oldies turned against May? The Dementia Tax was a disaster for the Tories in that respect. Many of them will have been using their postal votes just a day or two after the manifesto screw-up.
    Even at that pretty disastrous time they were still polling 70/20 of the 65+
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,360
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    If Don had said something like "inflation has risen (to target levels, btw) recently meaning it could squeeze living standards over the next few years", then that would be fine.

    Incidentally, if inflation does get about 3% the BoE might actually have to grow a pair and put up interest rates.
    But until wage growth catches up, living standards will fall. It is simple arithmetic. Someone has to articulate that. Bill Clinton would have done perfectly in about 90 seconds. But he is not here.
    At least under the Tories people will have a wage. Labour government spells unemployment, without fail.
    Usual puff talk. But it is quite clear, you are not denying the central premise. Living standards will fall over the coming months. The reason is simple. Falling pound finally started to increase costs.

    In line with this retail sales have started to fall quite quickly as part of consumers tightening their belts.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2017/apr/21/french-markets-in-focus-as-weekend-election-looms-business-live
    Averages for wage growth are misleading. We have been extremely successful at creating low wage, low skill jobs in this country with dramatic effects on the unemployment rate and also on youth unemployment. This growth in employment, mainly at the bottom end, has distorted the average by weighting the sample downwards. People in consistent employment are doing better than the average suggests.

    This effect has been offset to some extent by the fact that the National Living Wage is still rising faster than inflation. Those at the bottom, with a greater propensity to spend, are not being squeezed. There will be a considerable bounce back in spending from Q1 this quarter. I think growth this quarter may well be back to 0.7%. The figures will be too late for the election of course.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,368
    nunu said:

    nunu said:

    Youth turnout can surge but Labour will be swamped by the grey vote. For a start there are only 5.7 million 18-24 year olds and 11 million aged 65+. Have you seen the support the tories are getting with this group?

    What is more even if turnout for the young went from 43% to voting at te same rate of 78% for oldies (nope!) it will increase the lab vote by 1% and decrease the Tory vote by 1%, this is before you take into vote prefrence since 2015.

    The young are also concentrated in the big cities where Labour already have MP's. The polls that are showing 18-34 year olds liklihood to vote at 63% up from 43% in 2015 might be right but how likely is a 20% in young turnout surge in one GE ? Not very I would suggest. and as I've explained it would barely make a difference if it went to 78%, (which it wont).

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39965925

    Labour support of 18-34 year olds is at 69% with tories at 12% too bad 65+ support the tories at 65% to 15% for Labour, and as there are millions more oldies, much higher voting rates and more evenly spread out in the marginals they count more.
    The point about the polls however is that some pollsters are overriding data with their own turnout models based on what happened last time. If something different happens this time (which might be picked up by looking at respondents' self-reported interest and likelihood to vote, I don't know?), this is clearly introducing error. With the difference in voting behaviour by age being so stark, this potential error is magnified.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    FF43 said:

    At least under the Tories people will have a wage. Labour government spells unemployment, without fail.

    Hardly matches historical reality. Think of the unemployment in the eighties and the relatively better employment in the first decade of the millennium.
    I find it hard to understand now the real rate of unemployment can anyone explain.As I believe you receive JSA for only six months after that are you classed as unemployed.Also people who are made redundant in their fifties and receive a small personal pension are not entitled to JSA if they are still looking for work are they classed as unemployed ?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    If Don had said something like "inflation has risen (to target levels, btw) recently meaning it could squeeze living standards over the next few years", then that would be fine.

    Incidentally, if inflation does get about 3% the BoE might actually have to grow a pair and put up interest rates.
    But until wage growth catches up, living standards will fall. It is simple arithmetic. Someone has to articulate that. Bill Clinton would have done perfectly in about 90 seconds. But he is not here.
    At least under the Tories people will have a wage. Labour government spells unemployment, without fail.
    Usual puff talk. But

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2017/apr/21/french-markets-in-focus-as-weekend-election-looms-business-live
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/18/uk-retail-sales-best-forecasts-despite-pay-squeeze

    Despite brexit? :smiley:
    The slowdown in GDP for this year was mostly due to consumers reining in spending:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/banking

    Overdue in many ways as levels of debt are high. Student loans are going to be anincreasing drag on the economy as they take money out of the pockets of younger consumers, depressing demand.
    That money has to come from some pocket.
    It does indeed, but the increased dependency ratio, high housing costs, student debts and absence of workplace pensions are a triple whammy on twenty and thirty somethings.

    Don't expect them to like it, and do expect them to vote against it. People who feel no stake in a society can be a difficult and rebellious electorate.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    If Don had said something like "inflation has risen (to target levels, btw) recently meaning it could squeeze living standards over the next few years", then that would be fine.

    Incidentally, if inflation does get about 3% the BoE might actually have to grow a pair and put up interest rates.
    But until wage growth catches up, living standards will fall. It is simple arithmetic. Someone has to articulate that. Bill Clinton would have done perfectly in about 90 seconds. But he is not here.
    At least under the Tories people will have a wage. Labour government spells unemployment, without fail.
    You don't remember the Thatcher years then?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,368
    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT on Abbott MCDonnell and Corbyn

    I think a lot more young voters will vote this time round, even tho abolition of tuition fees won't happen as Labour cannot win with Corbyn Abbott and McDonnell. Its like asking sensible voters to eat a sarni with their three most disliked fillings all in the same sarni..

    Thats my feeling as well. Plus Labour's ground game mounted by its large membership will give them a better chance of dragging people out where it matters. This may be the first election where the polls, by using old rather than contemporary data, underestimate the Labour share.
    Hm, where have we heard this before... "four million conversations".
    I know, I read the book by that BBC guy who spent the election with Miliband's campaign. His point however wasn't really about turnout, but that Labour's unfocused canvassing wasn't really changing anyone's mind.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    There is still a decent minority of people over 65 who don't use the internet. If no-one is polling by phone anymore, no-one will pick up how they 'swing' differently to their silver surfer counterparts.

    My guess would be that that they have swung even further anti-Labour.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137

    Icarus said:

    It must be very difficult to get people to answer calls from pollsters. My wife won't answer phone calls from someone she doesn't know. I tend to answer but if there is silence -from auto dialling - then put the phone down.

    More and more people will be not bothering with a landline.

    What difference this makes I am not sure but surely increases probability of errors.

    Most pollsters have gone to online panels for this reason.
    And how many of those panels are open to manipulation if one party targets getting its members on those panels? Now, the only evidence so far to suggest that has happened are the reports Momentum was urging its members to do so. They certainly seem to have many in their ranks who are social media savvy. Probably not enough to make a huge difference to polling, but even if they pulled it out of whack by a couple of %, that could be a raft of seats Labour actually lose that polling suggests they will currently hold.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    FPT on Abbott MCDonnell and Corbyn

    I think a lot more young voters will vote this time round, even tho abolition of tuition fees won't happen as Labour cannot win with Corbyn Abbott and McDonnell. Its like asking sensible voters to eat a sarni with their three most disliked fillings all in the same sarni..

    Thats my feeling as well. Plus Labour's ground game mounted by its large membership will give them a better chance of dragging people out where it matters. This may be the first election where the polls, by using old rather than contemporary data, underestimate the Labour share.
    Hm, where have we heard this before... "four million conversations".
    I know, I read the book by that BBC guy who spent the election with Miliband's campaign. His point however wasn't really about turnout, but that Labour's unfocused canvassing wasn't really changing anyone's mind.
    Isn't the whole point about the ground game on the day itself to ensure you get out the vote?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,368
    RoyalBlue said:

    There is still a decent minority of people over 65 who don't use the internet. If no-one is polling by phone anymore, no-one will pick up how they 'swing' differently to their silver surfer counterparts.

    My guess would be that that they have swung even further anti-Labour.

    Why would oldies not on the internet (now a minority I believe) swing differently from those who are? If anything the former are more likely to have been conservative to start with?
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,957
    Yorkcity said:

    Charles said:



    What is clear is that Corbyn has had a good war

    Let's make that call on June 9th. I'm far from convinced that he's had a good war. I'm expecting Labour to take a hammering.
    The derision thrown at Corbyn from every quarter including me was palpable.I also expect Labour to take a hammering .However he is a good campaigner and in the main his calm demeanour has I think resonated with people open to give him a hearing.He has changed the debate in the country from a fixation on austerity as the only answer.

    Yep, I agree with this. He has also taught an important lesson: Labour politicians should not try to second guess or appease the right wing Tory press. This was where New Labour went wrong. It hamstrung Ed Miliband. And it prevented all Corbyn's opponents in the 2015 leadership election. The Tory press is going to attack whatever, but these days there are other ways to get to voters. A soft left or centrist Labour leader with slightly more coherent economic policies, a relaxed view of patriotism and no back story of supporting anti-British/anti-western causes, who could assemble a team from across the PLP, would very quickly have May on the back foot in the next Parliament.

  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    If Don had said something like "inflation has risen (to target levels, btw) recently meaning it could squeeze living standards over the next few years", then that would be fine.

    Incidentally, if inflation does get about 3% the BoE might actually have to grow a pair and put up interest rates.
    But until wage growth catches up, living standards will fall. It is simple arithmetic. Someone has to articulate that. Bill Clinton would have done perfectly in about 90 seconds. But he is not here.
    At least under the Tories people will have a wage. Labour government spells unemployment, without fail.
    You don't remember the Thatcher years then?
    I do Thatcher called Labour and the miners the enemy within in 1984 .I was working in construction I knew friends who were blacklisted from working on sites by companies if they were Labour or Union members .
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,360

    Icarus said:

    It must be very difficult to get people to answer calls from pollsters. My wife won't answer phone calls from someone she doesn't know. I tend to answer but if there is silence -from auto dialling - then put the phone down.

    More and more people will be not bothering with a landline.

    What difference this makes I am not sure but surely increases probability of errors.

    Most pollsters have gone to online panels for this reason.
    Which must have its own problems. Silver surfers notwithstanding I would think it would be very difficult to get a truly representative sample of over 65s online.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,368

    I think ICM are basically right on the turnout of previous non-voters. When I get time I'll write a thread header on this.

    The interesting question is how they don't seem to have this problem in France? Or the US where, as Silver recently highlighted, their polling accuracy is significantly better than ours?
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,001
    IanB2 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    There is still a decent minority of people over 65 who don't use the internet. If no-one is polling by phone anymore, no-one will pick up how they 'swing' differently to their silver surfer counterparts.

    My guess would be that that they have swung even further anti-Labour.

    Why would oldies not on the internet (now a minority I believe) swing differently from those who are? If anything the former are more likely to have been conservative to start with?
    Wouldn't oldies not on the internet be more likely to be WC? i.e. retired blue collar/ manual etc.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,127
    edited May 2017
    I came across this - I suspect we're supposed to be sympathetic:

    ' For Tracy Strassburg, a mother of two boys from Nunhead in south-east London, the sums just don't add up.

    Her freelance job as a yoga teacher provides her with £640 a month.

    Yet the rent on her small two-bedroom flat is £1,400. Even with housing benefit of £946 a month, she is still left borrowing £300 a month from her mother, as well as using credit cards. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39974177

    Lets do some maths here.

    This self-employment brings in £7,680 pa - so she'll be paying very little income tax and NI.
    She gets housing benefit of £11,352 pa.

    Can anyone explain why:

    1) Taxpayers from outside London are paying for her to live in London
    2) She isn't told to get a proper job and/or relocate somewhere she can afford
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Another leftie rant on here.

    May will win a landslide on June 8th, partly because she's the only trustworthy leader and partly because the Conservatives have the best record on the economy. High levels of taxation do not produce wealth, but having to demolish the arguments of Marxists such as Don Brind is like entering a 1970's timewarp.

    Theresa May is the only trustworthy leader? Well, if so then she needs to be careful she does not blow that advantage, and thankful Labour does not have the gumption to call out the Prime Minister on, say:
    1) her u-turn on Brexit
    2) her u-turn on national insurance
    3) her u-turn on calling the election
    4) her u-turn on the dementia tax

    Not my argument, btw, but one from a recent Spectator podcast.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    surbiton said:

    tlg86 said:

    British families will be getting poorer over the next few years as incomes fail to keep pace with inflation.

    Don, what will this week's lottery numbers be?

    You may not like to hear that, but it is true. In fact, it has already started. Wage growth is already lower than rate of inflation. Wage growth was March 2.4% in March whereas CPI was 2.3% in March and jumped to 2.7% in April.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/apr2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/feb/08/uk-pay-growth-inflation-bank-of-england-economy-brexit
    If Don had said something like "inflation has risen (to target levels, btw) recently meaning it could squeeze living standards over the next few years", then that would be fine.

    Incidentally, if inflation does get about 3% the BoE might actually have to grow a pair and put up interest rates.
    But until wage growth catches up, living standards will fall. It is simple arithmetic. Someone has to articulate that. Bill Clinton would have done perfectly in about 90 seconds. But he is not here.
    At least under the Tories people will have a wage. Labour government spells unemployment, without fail.
    You don't remember the Thatcher years then?
    Fact: every Labour Govt. has left office with less people in employment than they inherited.

    The one thing you cannot say under this Govt (and the Coalition before) is that unemployment is a tool used by the bosses to keep the workers subjugated - and the other such bullshit that the Left used to spout about how Tories = mass unemployment.

    "Unemployment" only gets mentioned in political conversations in the context of Labour economic policy threatening it.

    The Tories should go hard on this in the last week - you might get your tuition fees paid by Labour, but you won't have a job at the end of your course....
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    IanB2 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    There is still a decent minority of people over 65 who don't use the internet. If no-one is polling by phone anymore, no-one will pick up how they 'swing' differently to their silver surfer counterparts.

    My guess would be that that they have swung even further anti-Labour.

    Why would oldies not on the internet (now a minority I believe) swing differently from those who are? If anything the former are more likely to have been conservative to start with?
    Wouldn't oldies not on the internet be more likely to be WC? i.e. retired blue collar/ manual etc.
    I think refusal to adapt to changes in the way we live can affect people from all classes!
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,001

    Yorkcity said:

    Charles said:



    What is clear is that Corbyn has had a good war

    Let's make that call on June 9th. I'm far from convinced that he's had a good war. I'm expecting Labour to take a hammering.
    The derision thrown at Corbyn from every quarter including me was palpable.I also expect Labour to take a hammering .However he is a good campaigner and in the main his calm demeanour has I think resonated with people open to give him a hearing.He has changed the debate in the country from a fixation on austerity as the only answer.

    Yep, I agree with this. He has also taught an important lesson: Labour politicians should not try to second guess or appease the right wing Tory press. This was where New Labour went wrong. It hamstrung Ed Miliband. And it prevented all Corbyn's opponents in the 2015 leadership election. The Tory press is going to attack whatever, but these days there are other ways to get to voters. A soft left or centrist Labour leader with slightly more coherent economic policies, a relaxed view of patriotism and no back story of supporting anti-British/anti-western causes, who could assemble a team from across the PLP, would very quickly have May on the back foot in the next Parliament.

    If you don't mind me asking, have you decided how you're going to vote?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,294

    Yorkcity said:

    Charles said:



    What is clear is that Corbyn has had a good war

    Let's make that call on June 9th. I'm far from convinced that he's had a good war. I'm expecting Labour to take a hammering.
    The derision thrown at Corbyn from every quarter including me was palpable.I also expect Labour to take a hammering .However he is a good campaigner and in the main his calm demeanour has I think resonated with people open to give him a hearing.He has changed the debate in the country from a fixation on austerity as the only answer.

    Yep, I agree with this. He has also taught an important lesson: Labour politicians should not try to second guess or appease the right wing Tory press. This was where New Labour went wrong. It hamstrung Ed Miliband. And it prevented all Corbyn's opponents in the 2015 leadership election. The Tory press is going to attack whatever, but these days there are other ways to get to voters. A soft left or centrist Labour leader with slightly more coherent economic policies, a relaxed view of patriotism and no back story of supporting anti-British/anti-western causes, who could assemble a team from across the PLP, would very quickly have May on the back foot in the next Parliament.

    I confess. I was one of those on here, heaping buckets of derision over Corbyn. I thought his campaign would be an utter disaster. I imagined it would like Abbott's performance on Marr yesterday, but happening every day and every interview. Corbyn and the team around him has been much better than I expected.

  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,957
    The perennial problem of British business: short-termism and focusing on cost-cutting instead of investment.
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/868997223132135424
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    The perennial problem of British business: short-termism and focusing on cost-cutting instead of investment.
    https://twitter.com/afneil/status/868997223132135424

    Isn't it a Spanish business? :p
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,981
    The young will come out and vote Labour. Alot of their traditional older support will either be staying home, casting their ballot for third party non hopers in the seat; or even voting Tory.

    I expect the Labour vote in Sheffield Central to be massive.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,957
    edited May 2017
    IanB2 said:

    I think ICM are basically right on the turnout of previous non-voters. When I get time I'll write a thread header on this.

    The interesting question is how they don't seem to have this problem in France? Or the US where, as Silver recently highlighted, their polling accuracy is significantly better than ours?

    It may be as simple as most Brits don't like to talk about politics.

    Driving around my consituency yesterday (Warwick and Leamington) the only posters in windows and on. boards you could see were Labour ones. But the Tories are going to increase their majority here by many thousands.

  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    Charles said:



    What is clear is that Corbyn has had a good war

    Let's make that call on June 9th. I'm far from convinced that he's had a good war. I'm expecting Labour to take a hammering.
    The derision thrown at Corbyn from every quarter including me was palpable.I also expect Labour to take a hammering .However he is a good campaigner and in the main his calm demeanour has I think resonated with people open to give him a hearing.He has changed the debate in the country from a fixation on austerity as the only answer.

    Yep, I agree with this. He has also taught an important lesson: Labour politicians should not try to second guess or appease the right wing Tory press. This was where New Labour went wrong. It hamstrung Ed Miliband. And it prevented all Corbyn's opponents in the 2015 leadership election. The Tory press is going to attack whatever, but these days there are other ways to get to voters. A soft left or centrist Labour leader with slightly more coherent economic policies, a relaxed view of patriotism and no back story of supporting anti-British/anti-western causes, who could assemble a team from across the PLP, would very quickly have May on the back foot in the next Parliament.

    Totally agree.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,957

    Yorkcity said:

    Charles said:



    What is clear is that Corbyn has had a good war

    Let's make that call on June 9th. I'm far from convinced that he's had a good war. I'm expecting Labour to take a hammering.
    The derision thrown at Corbyn from every quarter including me was palpable.I also expect Labour to take a hammering .However he is a good campaigner and in the main his calm demeanour has I think resonated with people open to give him a hearing.He has changed the debate in the country from a fixation on austerity as the only answer.

    Yep, I agree with this. He has also taught an important lesson: Labour politicians should not try to second guess or appease the right wing Tory press. This was where New Labour went wrong. It hamstrung Ed Miliband. And it prevented all Corbyn's opponents in the 2015 leadership election. The Tory press is going to attack whatever, but these days there are other ways to get to voters. A soft left or centrist Labour leader with slightly more coherent economic policies, a relaxed view of patriotism and no back story of supporting anti-British/anti-western causes, who could assemble a team from across the PLP, would very quickly have May on the back foot in the next Parliament.

    If you don't mind me asking, have you decided how you're going to vote?

    I cannot vote for Corbyn. His past and his associates make it impossible. It'll be LibDem or spoiled ballot.

This discussion has been closed.