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  • isamisam Posts: 41,339
    The Islington Bubble

    "Corbyn and cupcakes: a journey through North London politics

    Labour’s leader is sustained by an old north London brand of abstract idealism, dauntless optimism, moral indignation and discomfort with change. It has its charms but their reach is limited."

    https://onlondon.co.uk/2017/05/01/corbyn-and-cupcakes-a-journey-through-north-london-politics/
  • isamisam Posts: 41,339
    edited May 2017
    SeanT said:

    LOL. I mean, really, that actually made me laugh. Out loud. The Shadow Home Secretary.
    You couldn't script that.

    Almost beyond belief!

    1/200 to win her seat.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    Skybet Westminster North at 3-1 Labour was a great spot by another RICHARD btw
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017

    25 June 2015.....

    You wrote:

    it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently.

    Link to proposals please?

    I cannot link to proposals because the UK government is keeping them secret. I can only link to reports of what the proposals are, as I did below. It seems as if the UK is suggesting that EU citizens be treated as third country nationals post-Brexit. That would imply a significant reduction in their current rights. Ditto for UK nationals living in the EU, of course.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235

    The Falcon 9 Heavy is still six months away from flight. ;)

    Musk says he'll give an update about the ITS scheme in a few weeks. Since the massive carbon fibre tank they made went bang (I presume an unplanned failure, as they wouldn't want to destroy it on the second or third test) I think they'll move to a more 'traditional' approach.

    Personally, I'd haul a water-rich asteroid towards a lagrange point and use it to create a hydrogen/oxygen fuel farm. Expensive in the long run,, but will save a massive amount of launches in the medium and long term. NASA would also be very interested, as would ULA with their ACES upper stage.
    FH to launch next March would be my u/o line
  • isamisam Posts: 41,339
    isam said:

    The Islington Bubble

    "Corbyn and cupcakes: a journey through North London politics

    Labour’s leader is sustained by an old north London brand of abstract idealism, dauntless optimism, moral indignation and discomfort with change. It has its charms but their reach is limited."

    https://onlondon.co.uk/2017/05/01/corbyn-and-cupcakes-a-journey-through-north-london-politics/

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017
    RobD said:

    I'm unsure which rights they would be losing that ordinary Brits would be keeping? Unless they are arguing that EU citizens should somehow have more rights, which would be absurd.

    Third-party nationals do not have an automatic right to free healthcare or to many public services, for example. The basic principle that currently applies to EU citizens in the UK (and to UK citizens in the rEU) is that they get what the locals get, with some agreed exceptions relating to voting rights.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    People have been asking for articles on NASA's tracking cameras. It must be quite a spectacular setup.

    I still can't get over the first stage rotating to return to the launch site. I just watch it and think: "the aerodynamic forces'll just break it up."

    Except it's above the atmosphere.
    Yes, the turning around of the first stage feels like it shouldn't be possible, but we have only Earth-bound perspectives and experiences to draw upon!

    This is the best video I've seen of what NASA did with the final few Shuttle launches, using very high speed cameras to monitor the launch from a number of angles. Their long range shots were with a 3,800mm (150 inch) tracking camera, and nowhere near as long as the SpaceX one - I was thinking it must have been 10m or thereabouts!!
    Pic of the camera itself: https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/nasa-long-range-ascent-tracking-camera.496933/
    45 minutes of Shuttle Pr0n:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vFwqZ4qAUkE

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    edited May 2017

    I cannot link to proposals because the UK government is keeping them secret. I can only link to reports of what the proposals are, as I did below. It seems as if the UK is suggesting that EU citizens be treated as third country nationals post-Brexit. That would imply a significant reduction in their current rights. Ditto for UK nationals living in the EU, of course.
    Isn't that simply the logical consequence of the EU insisting that the UK will be a 'Third Country'?

    Are you suggesting the EU 'hasn't thought this through?

    Perhaps we'll know more at noon:

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/859333970227548160
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    Third-party nationals do not have an automatic right to free healthcare or to many public services, for example. The basic principle that currently applies to EU citizens in the UK (and to UK citizens in the rEU) is that they get what the locals get, with some agreed exceptions relating to voting rights.

    I thought the only requirement for NHS care was that you were 'ordinarily resident' in the UK?
  • theakestheakes Posts: 959
    Labour all over the media AGAIN, full marks to them.
    Lib Dem performance on Thursday, ratings?
    Any losses poor
    gains 1-15 disappointing
    " 16-30 satisfacroty
    " 31-50 good
    " 51-75 very good
    " 76-99 excellent
    " 100+ psychological boost: headline catching
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    Oh, Dianne.

    Was she any better on BBC1 this am?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    MrsB said:

    The comments on this thread simply serve to show the scale of the Brexit problem.
    Sharp divide between those who won't have any criticism of the UK and believe the EU are deliberately setting out to be the enemy and those who think the UK is ill-prepared and unrealistic about what can be achieved.
    We will find out who is right eventually. But in the meantime, the tone of the side who are anti-EU is much more aggressive. Why do you need to be so rude to people who don't agree with you, guys? Is it so that you don't have to think too hard about how to defend your position?

    LOl - have you checked some of the posts from remainers.

    Of course both sides may be wrong and a (ahem) third way might be found.

    Looking at what is coming out of the EU it seems they really have no intention on negotiating a deal.

    Not surprised considering the ways they treated member States in past.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,339
    SeanT said:

    LOL. I mean, really, that actually made me laugh. Out loud. The Shadow Home Secretary.
    You couldn't script that.

    Icing on the cake... in the midst of the chaos, she still managed to say "& women" when Ferrari said "Policemen"
  • On topic

    As I live in a near one-party state I am going to vote for any independent who is standing, and if not I might vote Lib Dem. They do seem to care about local issues so, which is quite touching.

    And there's little risk that Hertfordshire County Council Lib Dems strength will stop Brexit.

    Still voting Tory in the GE.

    I'll be doing my best to keep the Yellow Peril out of Potters Bar East.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,402

    Which is nonsense. There's a decent off the shelf deal called the EEA which many Leavers and Remainers both support.

    It is May who has decided to turn Brexit into an existential struggle in hopes of putting her name to an optimum negotiated 'special' relationship between Britain and the EU, instead of allowing that relationship to evolve over time.
    Yes the decision to reject using ECJ rulings on disputes makes any deal 100x more difficult. It is a very bad decision indeed. The UK is riding for no deal. The impact of no deal could be a large fall in GDP and permanent loss of competitiveness. May does not understand the limits to a deal and is asking for stuff that cannot be given by the EU-27.

    The fact that she is paranoid about leaks and is, lets face it not a particularly warm personality is showing her to be a very poor negotiator.

    However, I was amused to hear that apparently Dalmatians are going missing in Berkshire though- first good joke about her.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359
    theakes said:

    Labour all over the media AGAIN, full marks to them.
    Lib Dem performance on Thursday, ratings?
    Any losses poor
    gains 1-15 disappointing
    " 16-30 satisfacroty
    " 31-50 good
    " 51-75 very good
    " 76-99 excellent
    " 100+ psychological boost: headline catching

    Didn't Rallings and Thrasher say 100 was par for the LDs?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017

    Isn't that simply the logical consequence of the EU insisting that the UK will be a 'Third Country'?

    Are you suggesting the EU 'hasn't thought this through?

    Perhaps we'll know more at noon:

    https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/859333970227548160

    The UK becoming a Third Country - which is what Brexit is clearly all about - does not mean that rights currently enjoyed by UK citizens living in the EU27 must be removed.

  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Good morning on this strong and stable Tuesday.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,682
    My litmus test for Friday.

    Sion Simon wins = On course for a modest Tory majority

    Sion Simon loses = On course for a 100 plus Tory majority
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017
    SeanT said:

    A friend of mine in your business (except he's a Hollywood film director not a retired tampon TV advertiser) has decided to make his next movie in London, this summer. He was going to do it in LA or NYC but the fall in sterling made London too attractive.

    For anyone who deals in dollars and Euros the last year has been spectacular. We hit full year forecast in March, two months ahead of schedule.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422

    The UK becoming a Third Country - which is what Brexit is clearly all about - does not mean that rights currently enjoyed by UK citizens living in the EU27 must be removed.

    "No cherry picking"
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255
    Cicero said:

    Yes the decision to reject using ECJ rulings on disputes makes any deal 100x more difficult. It is a very bad decision indeed. The UK is riding for no deal. The impact of no deal could be a large fall in GDP and permanent loss of competitiveness. May does not understand the limits to a deal and is asking for stuff that cannot be given by the EU-27.

    The fact that she is paranoid about leaks and is, lets face it not a particularly warm personality is showing her to be a very poor negotiator.

    However, I was amused to hear that apparently Dalmatians are going missing in Berkshire though- first good joke about her.
    Not at all. We could take the EEA deal as WIlliam suggests and still not be subject to ECJ rulings. The two important points are that we are outside the Customs Union and not subject to ECJ rulings. EEA membership through EFTA satisfies both of those conditions.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035

    I appreciate your honest answer
    Re this impacting on Mrs May's popularity.

    To be honest you seem more concerned about whether the deal we get impacts on the PM's popularity than whether it is a good deal for the country.

    Certainly sections of the populace and their media cheerleaders will go into overdrive along the plucky Blighty takes on the EU line, Dunkirk spirit etc etc. However if we get a bad deal/no deal and our economy is damaged then it is going to matter little to most people who's fault it was.

    There will come a time when simply blaming the EU for all our problems is not going to wash - it's going to cause an existential crisis at the Mail & Express. At the moment it's a convenient shield for blaming any ill-effects of Brexit on the EU rather than the Conservative Party and some people will buy it but many will see through and blame Brexit itself.

    As BeverleyC says May is the only game in town now - the test of popularity will come when we see how she handles Brexit and what she does with her large majority. I am still hoping for a soft EFTA-type landing but I am beginning to fear the worst.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017

    "No cherry picking"

    It's not cherry-picking. It's guaranteeing existing rights. However, clearly you are prepared to see UK citizens in the EU27 sold down the river, as is the government. What's more, by taking rights away from EU citizens here, we increase the chances that those with a choice - ie, the most productive and the most coveted - will head off to somewhere else. I am sure it makes sense to someone.

  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Presumably good tax rises, unlike Labour ones. Like the good energy price cap.....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCNormanS: Jeremy Corbyn says "not embarrassed" by Dianne Abbott @LBC intv on police funding
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    Oh noes, she might lose a hundred votes in Kensington !

    What are the "rich" going to do - vote for Corbyn ;p ?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Freggles said:

    Presumably good tax rises, unlike Labour ones. Like the good energy price cap.....

    Credit where credit is due. Tezza is doing everything she can to lose this election.

    Sadly she is up against the A team of Abbot and Costello Corbyn
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Jeremy Corbyn says "not embarrassed" by Dianne Abbott @LBC intv on police funding

    "Follow-up question, Jeremey. How?"
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    SeanT said:

    A friend of mine in your business (except he's a Hollywood film director not a retired tampon TV advertiser) has decided to make his next movie in London, this summer. He was going to do it in LA or NYC but the fall in sterling made London too attractive.
    There seems to be a curious lack of forecasting for the UK economy post-Brexit going on. Perhaps the economists are all stung after the failure of their models in recent years. Reading between the lines, always dangerous, it does seem as if the consensus would be that the Treasury's 6% lower GDP in 2030 was on the pessimistic side. That doesn't make me a Brexiter, more a Regrets'iter but you know it might not actually be the end of the world.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,339
    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Jeremy Corbyn says "not embarrassed" by Dianne Abbott @LBC intv on police funding

    Everyone knows he has shagged her, Jez is way past peak Abbott inflicted embarrassment
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,682
    Pulpstar said:

    Oh noes, she might lose a hundred votes in Kensington !

    What are the "rich" going to do - vote for Corbyn ;p ?
    Well at least Corbyn is honest and meets the voters.

    No wonder she's hiding from the voters if she's planning on soaking us.

    I might have to abstain.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422

    It's not cherry-picking. It's guaranteeing existing rights.
    It is cherry picking.

    What 'existing rights' will British businesses have after we become a Third Country?

    When the EU does it, its not cherry picking, when the UK does, it is.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,682
    Freggles said:

    Presumably good tax rises, unlike Labour ones. Like the good energy price cap.....
    Has anyone seen Theresa May eat a bacon sarnie?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422

    ‪Is Theresa May really a Tory?‬

    Good question. She is a bit popular for a Tory - well, compared to recent ones, anyway.....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    My litmus test for Friday.

    Sion Simon wins = On course for a modest Tory majority

    Sion Simon loses = On course for a 100 plus Tory majority

    Sion Simon 2.36
    Andy Street 1.52
    Bring on the landslide! :D
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/politics/event/28051236/market?marketId=1.129071194
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    Has anyone seen Theresa May eat a bacon sarnie?
    Or drinking a pint? :o
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Jeremy Corbyn says "not embarrassed" by Dianne Abbott @LBC intv on police funding

    Did he actually listen to it?
    That wasn't a car crash, as much as two fully laden trucks heading crashing head on at 100mph!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422

    Well at least Corbyn is honest and meets the voters.
    The article you linked to:

    Mrs May also knocked doors in the safe Labour seats of West Lancashire and Stockport

    So May visits safe Labour seats, as does Corbyn (but only if the Majority is 51%...)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,682

    Good question. She is a bit popular for a Tory - well, compared to recent ones, anyway.....
    So you're saying she'll increase the number of Tory MPs more than Dave did ?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    So you're saying she'll increase the number of Tory MPs more than Dave did ?
    If she gains even one more she'll be more popular, surely? *innocent face*
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,463
    SeanT said:

    A friend of mine in your business (except he's a Hollywood film director not a retired tampon TV advertiser) has decided to make his next movie in London, this summer. He was going to do it in LA or NYC but the fall in sterling made London too attractive.
    That usually means their work in Hollywood's dried up. I know several some successful some less so. If it's not happening for them they move. England's their only alternative
  • isamisam Posts: 41,339

    Has anyone seen Theresa May eat a bacon sarnie?
    Sounds interesting!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422

    So you're saying she'll increase the number of Tory MPs more than Dave did ?
    Who do you think is better at the job of Prime Minister? OA (Con VI)
    David Cameron : 22 (17)
    Theresa May : 38 (70)

    Pretty clear, I'd say, wouldn't you?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255
    OllyT said:


    Re this impacting on Mrs May's popularity.

    To be honest you seem more concerned about whether the deal we get impacts on the PM's popularity than whether it is a good deal for the country.

    Certainly sections of the populace and their media cheerleaders will go into overdrive along the plucky Blighty takes on the EU line, Dunkirk spirit etc etc. However if we get a bad deal/no deal and our economy is damaged then it is going to matter little to most people who's fault it was.

    There will come a time when simply blaming the EU for all our problems is not going to wash - it's going to cause an existential crisis at the Mail & Express. At the moment it's a convenient shield for blaming any ill-effects of Brexit on the EU rather than the Conservative Party and some people will buy it but many will see through and blame Brexit itself.

    As BeverleyC says May is the only game in town now - the test of popularity will come when we see how she handles Brexit and what she does with her large majority. I am still hoping for a soft EFTA-type landing but I am beginning to fear the worst.

    The thing is that the more the EU make idiotic demands or set pre conditions and do their own cherry picking, the far easier it becomes to pin the blame on them for a hard Brexit. Already people know that this is not going to be an easy or straightforward process. WatO on Radio 4 yesterday made it clear that people are aware of this. So the expectation of problems is already there and accepted. The EU playing silly buggers before the negotiations have even started will not help them in the process as it simply confirms what people already thought about them (remember even amongst Remain voters there is a huge groundswell of distrust and dislike of the EU. True believers like Williamglenn are very rare.)

    All this actually does is make it easier for May to sell a hard Brexit to the public on the basis she tried her best but the EU were only interested in punishment.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,682
    RobD said:

    If she gains even one more she'll be more popular, surely? *innocent face*
    Logic fail. It's all about relative increase.

    Taking the Tories from 198 to 331 is more impressive than going from 331 to 332.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    PODAWAS
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,984
    The government spin surrounding Theresa's dinner engagement with Junker has been abject. Theresa's been made to look like some hapless supplicant tossed by events, rather than the steely enforcer of legend. They should take a leaf out of Gordon Brown's book: during the banking crisis it was said that the other EU leaders looked to Gordon when a heady mixture of envy and awe. It doesn't have to be true, just possible.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    Logic fail. It's all about relative increase.

    Taking the Tories from 198 to 331 is more impressive than going from 331 to 332.
    Ah, but we were talking about who was more popular, not how good they are at increasing seat share (plus starting from a lower base and all that :p )
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255

    Logic fail. It's all about relative increase.

    Taking the Tories from 198 to 331 is more impressive than going from 331 to 332.
    Not when they had been 20 points clear and odds on for a large majority until they threw it all away.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    Who do you think is better at the job of Prime Minister? OA (Con VI)
    David Cameron : 22 (17)
    Theresa May : 38 (70)

    Pretty clear, I'd say, wouldn't you?
    Cameron is only on 17%? That must be a typo or something!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,682
    Sandpit said:

    Sion Simon 2.36
    Andy Street 1.52
    Bring on the landslide! :D
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/politics/event/28051236/market?marketId=1.129071194
    Notes with much sadness that Leave was 15 at 10.30pm on June 23rd.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,677



    For anyone who deals in dollars and Euros the last year has been spectacular. We hit full year forecast in March, two months ahead of schedule.

    Mmm! My European translation business is booming too. I look forward to a feast of Brexit negotiating documents to translate, paid in nice hard Euros.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,022

    Logic fail. It's all about relative increase.

    Taking the Tories from 198 to 331 is more impressive than going from 331 to 332.
    Why. If you were lucky enough to follow some useless leaders then there might be plenty of room for improvement. There's no easy answer to this but your lack of insight into Camborne's flaws does get rather tiring.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,079
    I think the "Juncker leak" episode will have ZERO impact on the result in five weeks time, in spite of all the words expended on the subject in this thread.

    I think the impact of the CPS decision is unpredictable. It could have a significant impact, or none at all - who knows.

    However there are two features which I believe WILL have a large impact:

    1) The wide belief that a large Conservative majority is inevitable - a coronation.

    2) The high exposure of TMay (despite her dodging a debate and avoiding contact with the public) which will not be to her advantage. She is insecure, retreating into robotic sound bites, and is beginning to be ridiculed.. She doesn't have the depth or confidence of a Merkel or a Thatcher and it shows. It might not matter if these were normal times, but she has an enormous task ahead.

    I think the consequence will be a small suppression of the Tory vote, a switch back to Labour of some ex-Labour voters and a willingness by some to vote for LibDems or Green knowing it isn't going to change the fact that we are headed for a Tory Government with a large majority.

    I would sell Tory seats and buy the rest.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355
    George Osborne also increased taxes on the wealthy.

    It's things like raising NI on the self-employed, or raising the higher rate of income tax above 40p/freezing the bands that would cause trouble for her, not the 1%.
  • walterwwalterw Posts: 71
    'llef

    'uk manufacturing PMI hits 57.2 - a 3 year high.'


    Definitely not part of the script,must be an error in the numbers.

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Isn't it the EU that keeps insisting we will be a 'Third Country' and 'no cherry picking'?
    I dare say it is. But on that they would be in line with the Brexiters.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355

    My litmus test for Friday.

    Sion Simon wins = On course for a modest Tory majority

    Sion Simon loses = On course for a 100 plus Tory majority

    Has Sion Simon ever written any articles about the governing party holding a snap election and increasing its majority?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255

    Logic fail. It's all about relative increase.

    Taking the Tories from 198 to 331 is more impressive than going from 331 to 332.
    Logic fail by you as well. Keeping those 331 MPs and adding an extra 1 does (under the terms you are discussing) make her more popular. Its basic maths.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,682

    Not when they had been 20 points clear and odds on for a large majority until they threw it all away.
    All part of the master strategy.

    It was said whoever won in 2010 would be out of power for a generation.

    Dave's centrism saw the Lib Dems massacred like Carthage at Zama, drove Labour mad that they elected Corbyn as leader as well as winning a majority.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422

    The thing is that the more the EU make idiotic demands or set pre conditions and do their own cherry picking, the far easier it becomes to pin the blame on them for a hard Brexit. Already people know that this is not going to be an easy or straightforward process. WatO on Radio 4 yesterday made it clear that people are aware of this. So the expectation of problems is already there and accepted. The EU playing silly buggers before the negotiations have even started will not help them in the process as it simply confirms what people already thought about them (remember even amongst Remain voters there is a huge groundswell of distrust and dislike of the EU. True believers like Williamglenn are very rare.)

    All this actually does is make it easier for May to sell a hard Brexit to the public on the basis she tried her best but the EU were only interested in punishment.
    The thing that's surprised me on the polling about 'EU negotiate in good faith' vs 'punishment' is how uniform it is across ages, political parties and Remain/Leave voters responses are - unlike the huge polarisations we see on Corbyn or May for example.

    I would have expected Leave voters to be more suspicious of EU motives, Remain voters more charitable - but no, their views are virtually the same:

    LEAVE/REMAIN
    Thinking about the forthcoming negootiations with the European Union, what attitude do you think other European countries will end up taking?

    They will probably negotiate constructively to find a
    deal that works for both Britain and the EU : 30 / 33

    They will probably obstruct a good deal to punish Britain
    and discourage other countries from leaving: 52 / 49
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,856

    Has Sion Simon ever written any articles about the governing party holding a snap election and increasing its majority?
    This is becoming like the recurring Private Eye letters about Andrew Neil. :)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    All part of the master strategy.

    It was said whoever won in 2010 would be out of power for a generation.

    Dave's centrism saw the Lib Dems massacred like Carthage at Zama, drove Labour mad that they elected Corbyn as leader as well as winning a majority.
    And how wrong they were, the Tories have been in power for over two (Scottish) generations!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    This is becoming like the recurring Private Eye letters about Andrew Neil. :)
    Becoming? :p
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,609

    Has anyone seen Theresa May eat a bacon sarnie?
    There's no need. She isn't Jewish, and the Conservatives don't pander to the anti-Semitic vote
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,856

    I would have expected Leave voters to be more suspicious of EU motives, Remain voters more charitable - but no, their views are virtually the same:

    That being the case, you shouldn't expect public opinion to swing to Leave just because the EU is handling things as everyone thought they would.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,344
    edited May 2017
    Apologies if I'm wrong about this, but I'm sure someone on here said Macron would crap out of having a final debate with Le Pen if he didn't have to.

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/859339747826774016
    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/859340010075586564
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017

    It is cherry picking.

    What 'existing rights' will British businesses have after we become a Third Country?

    When the EU does it, its not cherry picking, when the UK does, it is.

    We don't know what existing rights UK companies will retain after Brexit. The UK does not seem to have made any proposals around this - or, if it has, it has kept them secret and nothing has yet leaked. Both the UK and the EU have made absolutely clear that the number one priority is to sort out the position of UK and EU citizens.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,856

    Apologies if I'm wrong about this but I'm sure someone on here said Macron would crap out of having a final debate with Le Pen if he didn't have to.

    You diplomatically avoided naming him. :)
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255

    That being the case, you shouldn't expect public opinion to swing to Leave just because the EU is handling things as everyone thought they would.
    No one has said they will swing to Leave. In fact most people already accept that we are leaving. What it does do is make people more accepting of a hard Brexit being inevitable and more willing to blame the EU for it. That makes May's job much easier.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,527
    edited May 2017
    Coming to a Facebook as near you...Dianne Abbott police policy. As I said yesterday they aren't just bonkers , they are as thick as shit. Actually that might be too kind. Has there ever been a more incapable and moronic opposition.

    You can disagree with blair and co but they weren't thick.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,576
    edited May 2017

    We don't know what existing rights UK companies will retain after Brexit. The UK does not seem to have made any proposals around this - or, if it has, it has kept them secret and nothing has yet leaked. Both the UK and the EU have made absolutely clear that the number one priority is to sort out the position of UK and EU citizens.

    May is pretty well saying that she’ll tell us what she thinks we ought to know, and no more. It’s all of a piece with describing opposers as saboteurs.

    Edit FFS
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    RobD said:

    Cameron is only on 17%? That must be a typo or something!
    It's a forced comparison - so voters have to choose one or the other. Among Tories Cameron fandom over May is a (small) minority pursuit.

    Also look at the question on whether May has followed Cameron's course and whether this is a good or bad thing. Overwhelmingly (63%) Con VI think May has changed course and this is a good thing. Next up at 17% think she's kept to the Cameron course and this is also a good thing. Only tiny numbers of Con voters think its bad that she's stuck to Cameron (4%) or changed from Cameron (2%).
  • Arthur_PennyArthur_Penny Posts: 198

    Logic fail. It's all about relative increase.

    Taking the Tories from 198 to 331 is more impressive than going from 331 to 332.
    Hmm - you obviously don't know how easy it is to get to absolute zero.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,984

    The thing is that the more the EU make idiotic demands or set pre conditions and do their own cherry picking, the far easier it becomes to pin the blame on them for a hard Brexit. Already people know that this is not going to be an easy or straightforward process. WatO on Radio 4 yesterday made it clear that people are aware of this. So the expectation of problems is already there and accepted. The EU playing silly buggers before the negotiations have even started will not help them in the process as it simply confirms what people already thought about them (remember even amongst Remain voters there is a huge groundswell of distrust and dislike of the EU. True believers like Williamglenn are very rare.)

    All this actually does is make it easier for May to sell a hard Brexit to the public on the basis she tried her best but the EU were only interested in punishment.
    Yes, it's sad that negotiating a good future arrangement for Britain has largely gone out of the window, and the preoccupation is now about getting the blame shifted on to the EU. But that's politics I guess - if you have no significant achievements to trumpet then you may as well go for the 'Not me Guv' approach.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    This is becoming like the recurring Private Eye letters about Andrew Neil. :)
    Not this one, shurely?
    image
  • BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191

    Not when they had been 20 points clear and odds on for a large majority until they threw it all away.
    Has that happened already then?

    Actually, two bald men are welcome to this particular comb.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?

    Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359
    Pulpstar said:

    I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?

    Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.

    At £300k /year, it's a bargain!! :smiley:
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359
    SeanT said:


    I agree. I'd like to see some more modelling of what Diamond Brexit looks like. How bad could it get, what are the upsides?

    Because this outcome seems very possible to me, now.

    Might have to rename it "Diamante Brexit" if the modelling doesn't turn out well.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017
    edited May 2017

    Yes, it's sad that negotiating a good future arrangement for Britain has largely gone out of the window, and the preoccupation is now about getting the blame shifted on to the EU. But that's politics I guess - if you have no significant achievements to trumpet then you may as well go for the 'Not me Guv' approach.

    Blaming someone else is a short-term political fix. It is not a sustainable strategy. If we do get the cliff-edge Brexit some on the right have always wanted, what comes next is going to be vital. A lot of well-paid jobs in manufacturing and other sectors depend on European supply chains and sales into the EU. How will these be preserved? How will a country with less access to the single market and fewer other trade deals than Turkey secure inward investment? How will jumping off the precipice affect our ability to borrow? What further cuts to public services will be needed? How many taxes will have to rise? And so on.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,355
    Pulpstar said:

    I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?

    Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.

    Labour's strategy seems to be to promise the moon on a stick, and hope the voters won't notice they don't have a clue how to pay for it.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255

    Has that happened already then?

    Actually, two bald men are welcome to this particular comb.
    It happened to Cameron in 2010
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    RobD said:

    Isn't that the sort of thing people do when they remortgage?

    I'll get my coat.... :p
    I remember the days under a Labour government when a neighbor remortgaged so he could buy himself a sports car............

    No wonder we had a credit bubble.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422

    Blaming someone else is a short-term political fix.
    You mean like the FAZ Brexit dinner briefing?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Interestingly, it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently. Nobody at all mentioned this during the referendum. Except the Remain side. Which was accused of fear-mongering.

    Hang on, I thought WE wanted to resolve this issue and the EU are dragging it out, whilst wanting to avoid blame.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255

    Yes, it's sad that negotiating a good future arrangement for Britain has largely gone out of the window, and the preoccupation is now about getting the blame shifted on to the EU. But that's politics I guess - if you have no significant achievements to trumpet then you may as well go for the 'Not me Guv' approach.
    That is your perception and needless to say it is rubbish. All that is happened is that the EU has shot itself in the foot. Whether the UK decides to take advantage of that self inflicted wound or not we will have to wait and see. What is sad is that Europhiles like you seek to excuse the EU considering punishment as more important than a deal that helps both sides.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    That is quite brilliantly hilarious.
    I hate the way that woman does politics, but I actually cringed for her.

    I think it's the worst interview I have heard, ever (from a politician)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422

    Both the UK and the EU have made absolutely clear that the number one priority is to sort out the position of UK and EU citizens.
    Which the UK has been trying to sort out since before Christmas.....blocked by the EU which is 'anxious to make sure it doesn't get the blame'......
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,344
    Pulpstar said:

    I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?

    Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.

    From Twitter I gather she costed it on the basis of paying them 2p an hour, or something like that.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,710
    Good morning pop pickers

    Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).

    It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.

    Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.

    I felt and feel embarrassed.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106

    Do you expect/accept a transition agreement which would be governed by the current arrangements during which time the long term future agreement will be negotiated or do you think it's 'unreasonable' of the EU not to aim to have everything done and dusted by 2019?
    Yes - it IS 'unreasonable' of the EU not to aim to have everything done and dusted by 2019.
    The EU were the ones who put the two year deadline into the Constitution Lisbon Treaty - not us.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 1,004
    Disraeli said:

    Yes - it IS 'unreasonable' of the EU not to aim to have everything done and dusted by 2019.
    The EU were the ones who put the two year deadline into the Constitution Lisbon Treaty - not us.
    We signed the treaty.
  • RestharrowRestharrow Posts: 233
    Sandpit said:

    Not this one, shurely?
    image
    Advice to interviewees: If Andrew Neil mentions in-vest-ment, try not to snigger.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,710
    Disraeli said:

    Yes - it IS 'unreasonable' of the EU not to aim to have everything done and dusted by 2019.
    The EU were the ones who put the two year deadline into the Constitution Lisbon Treaty - not us.
    Yeah thank goodness our democratically elected government didn't sign that puppy.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Pulpstar said:

    I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?

    Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.


    You HAVE to listen to it. You won't get the full experience just from a description.

This discussion has been closed.