Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
No you looked for and got a response you expected. My home town is full of EU nationals - it was full of Eastern Europeans long before the EU Eastern expansion and has been something of a magnet for further settlement because there were so many already there. If I sit in the pub and talk to them or go into one of the many shops run and served by them in the town they are entirely unconcerned. The attitude is that a deal will be done and that it will mean no real change in their status. You go looking for horror stories whilst ignoring the majority of people just getting on with their lives and then act all upset when you find them.
You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
Mr. Glenn, as I've said (although not for a little while) excepting the customs union, which we must leave, I'm open to a pretty wide spectrum of deals. I wouldn't mind if freedom of movement were replaced by freedom to work (ie guaranteed job offer).
The only new thing I've heard which is unacceptable is the possibility of having EU citizens here governed by EU rather than UK law.
Do you expect/accept a transition agreement which would be governed by the current arrangements during which time the long term future agreement will be negotiated or do you think it's 'unreasonable' of the EU not to aim to have everything done and dusted by 2019?
Yes - it IS 'unreasonable' of the EU not to aim to have everything done and dusted by 2019. The EU were the ones who put the two year deadline into the Constitution Lisbon Treaty - not us.
We signed the treaty.
Against the protests of the Eurosceptics and the Tory party. Many might say that (yet again) they have been proved right.
Mr. Glenn, as I've said (although not for a little while) excepting the customs union, which we must leave, I'm open to a pretty wide spectrum of deals. I wouldn't mind if freedom of movement were replaced by freedom to work (ie guaranteed job offer).
The only new thing I've heard which is unacceptable is the possibility of having EU citizens here governed by EU rather than UK law.
Do you expect/accept a transition agreement which would be governed by the current arrangements during which time the long term future agreement will be negotiated or do you think it's 'unreasonable' of the EU not to aim to have everything done and dusted by 2019?
Yes - it IS 'unreasonable' of the EU not to aim to have everything done and dusted by 2019. The EU were the ones who put the two year deadline into the Constitution Lisbon Treaty - not us.
Yeah thank goodness our democratically elected government didn't sign that puppy.
I think that was the one Gordon Brown signed after refusing to offer the referendum that the government had promised.
On Brexit, surely the situation is extremely simple. The EU27 are not currently offering a deal of any kind, indeed they are claiming we can't even talk about one at the moment. The UK is offering a deal, essentially offering tariff-free and largely hassle-free access to the UK market in return for them giving us the same access to the EU market.
Therefore, if there's no deal, it will be because the EU27 haven't backed down, and don't want one. If that's the case, they could save themselves a lot of trouble, and give themselves more time to put customs infrastructure in place and to plan how to fill their budget black hole, if they said so now, and accepted that the logical corollary of that is an exit payment of €0.
LEAVE/REMAIN Thinking about the forthcoming negootiations with the European Union, what attitude do you think other European countries will end up taking?
They will probably negotiate constructively to find a deal that works for both Britain and the EU : 30 / 33
They will probably obstruct a good deal to punish Britain and discourage other countries from leaving: 52 / 49
Only a third of Remainers believe that the EU is a sensible and constructive organisation. That may well be deluded but at least it's a justification for their support. God knows what's wrong with the rest of them.
it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently.
Link to proposals please?
I don't know whether he's right or not but I read the French English language newspaper last week and it was wall to wall ex pats worrying about Brexit. Their biggest concern was a reciprocal arrangement with the NHS which they believe they will lose and to replace it could cost £2500 a year.
Though unlikely to bother Sir Philip Green and family there are many others who live and work there for whom it's a major concern.
'10:23 PM visit kept closely controlled Having covered several high-profile politicians' and royal visits over the years, the level of media control here is far and above anything I've seen before. We're not even allowed to show you her visiting the building.
10:39 No filming allowed at questions Here is another example of the tight media control over the visit: All journalists are only allowed two questions for Mrs May, and we are not allowed to film her answering our questions.
10:46 Three minutes of the PM's time We've been allowed to ask our questions to the prime minister (although we are forbidden to film or photograph her answering them). We were given at most three minutes and were refused to be allowed to ask why we were not allowed to film her. Our reporter Lyn was then ushered out of the room.
10:51 Strong leadership Mrs may managed to get the words 'strong' and 'leadership' into her second sentence.'
it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently.
Link to proposals please?
I cannot link to proposals because the UK government is keeping them secret. I can only link to reports of what the proposals are, as I did below. It seems as if the UK is suggesting that EU citizens be treated as third country nationals post-Brexit. That would imply a significant reduction in their current rights. Ditto for UK nationals living in the EU, of course.
Isn't that simply the logical consequence of the EU insisting that the UK will be a 'Third Country'?
Are you suggesting the EU 'hasn't thought this through?
The UK becoming a Third Country - which is what Brexit is clearly all about - does not mean that rights currently enjoyed by UK citizens living in the EU27 must be removed.
"No cherry picking"
It's not cherry-picking. It's guaranteeing existing rights.
It is cherry picking.
What 'existing rights' will British businesses have after we become a Third Country?
When the EU does it, its not cherry picking, when the UK does, it is.
Both the UK and the EU have made absolutely clear that the number one priority is to sort out the position of UK and EU citizens.
Which the UK has been trying to sort out since before Christmas.....blocked by the EU which is 'anxious to make sure it doesn't get the blame'......
it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently.
Link to proposals please?
I cannot link to proposals because the UK government is keeping them secret. I can only link to reports of what the proposals are, as I did below. It seems as if the UK is suggesting that EU citizens be treated as third country nationals post-Brexit. That would imply a significant reduction in their current rights. Ditto for UK nationals living in the EU, of course.
Isn't that simply the logical consequence of the EU insisting that the UK will be a 'Third Country'?
Are you suggesting the EU 'hasn't thought this through?
The UK becoming a Third Country - which is what Brexit is clearly all about - does not mean that rights currently enjoyed by UK citizens living in the EU27 must be removed.
"No cherry picking"
It's not cherry-picking. It's guaranteeing existing rights.
It is cherry picking.
What 'existing rights' will British businesses have after we become a Third Country?
When the EU does it, its not cherry picking, when the UK does, it is.
Both the UK and the EU have made absolutely clear that the number one priority is to sort out the position of UK and EU citizens.
Which the UK has been trying to sort out since before Christmas.....blocked by the EU which is 'anxious to make sure it doesn't get the blame'......
Trying to sort something out by offering a deal that you know will be unacceptable is not trying to sort something out. If that applies to the EU's £60 billion demand, it equally applies to something that would reduce the current rights of EU citizens in the UK. Of course, if the UK government would tell us what it did offer, then we could all see and make a judgement on its reasonableness.
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
No you looked for and got a response you expected. My home town is full of EU nationals - it was full of Eastern Europeans long before the EU Eastern expansion and has been something of a magnet for further settlement because there were so many already there. If I sit in the pub and talk to them or go into one of the many shops run and served by them in the town they are entirely unconcerned. The attitude is that a deal will be done and that it will mean no real change in their status. You go looking for horror stories whilst ignoring the majority of people just getting on with their lives and then act all upset when you find them.
You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
You are either an idiot (can't rule it out), or have never canvassed (a liability to whichever party you express loyalty to, if any, so no surprise there either).
The process includes asking people on the doorstep or on the telephone what they think are the key issues in the forthcoming election. Hence they tend to tell you unprovoked.
The only "steer" is the fact that I say I am from the Conservative Party.
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
This might be a silly question, but am I to presume you are out actively canvassing for the Conservatives?
"Ni Marine ni Macron, ni patrie ni patron" is a beautiful slogan. Unfortunately...well, I'm reminded of the small proportion of Sanders supporters who were led by what Woodward and Bernstein would call "ratf***ers" to back Trump.
Le Pen has copied a Fillon speech and she is appealing to Mélenchon supporters. Who does that sound like? Anyone know what Roger Stone has been up to lately?
What strategy will Macron apply in tomorrow's TV debate? He can't just hope nothing happens and that he'll sail through: Le Pen is a formidable opponent. I reckon he'll go for a few snarly moments that his friends in the media will put on a loop - the moments where Emmanuel shows his strength and passion. But return of serve isn't much when your opponent has a fantastic return of return of serve. I'm not at all sure he'll come off well in a brawl. He will probably lose points, but will she gain enough points or momentum to win?
"L'Avenir en Commun" was the title of Mélenchon's manifesto. This is white Le Pen propaganda, perhaps with a hint of grey.
Mr. Glenn, as I've said (although not for a little while) excepting the customs union, which we must leave, I'm open to a pretty wide spectrum of deals. I wouldn't mind if freedom of movement were replaced by freedom to work (ie guaranteed job offer).
The only new thing I've heard which is unacceptable is the possibility of having EU citizens here governed by EU rather than UK law.
Do you expect/accept a transition agreement which would be governed by the current arrangements during which time the long term future agreement will be negotiated or do you think it's 'unreasonable' of the EU not to aim to have everything done and dusted by 2019?
Yes - it IS 'unreasonable' of the EU not to aim to have everything done and dusted by 2019. The EU were the ones who put the two year deadline into the Constitution Lisbon Treaty - not us.
Yeah thank goodness our democratically elected government didn't sign that puppy.
I think that was the one Gordon Brown signed after refusing to offer the referendum that the government had promised.
I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?
Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.
You HAVE to listen to it. You won't get the full experience just from a description.
I have just come back from Town and it is all over Sky news. This is today's story and Abbott's unbelievable incompetence in explaining the cost of their flag ship policy. It seems by her maths the Officers would be paid about £8,000 pa
Sky caught up with Corbyn on a local visit in Southampton where he said she has corrected it, so it is OK. Sky kindly pointed out that only two or three of his supporters turned out to greet him and on camera it was embarrassing.
'10:23 PM visit kept closely controlled Having covered several high-profile politicians' and royal visits over the years, the level of media control here is far and above anything I've seen before. We're not even allowed to show you her visiting the building.
10:39 No filming allowed at questions Here is another example of the tight media control over the visit: All journalists are only allowed two questions for Mrs May, and we are not allowed to film her answering our questions.
10:46 Three minutes of the PM's time We've been allowed to ask our questions to the prime minister (although we are forbidden to film or photograph her answering them). We were given at most three minutes and were refused to be allowed to ask why we were not allowed to film her. Our reporter Lyn was then ushered out of the room.
10:51 Strong leadership Mrs may managed to get the words 'strong' and 'leadership' into her second sentence.'
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
No you looked for and got a response you expected. My home town is full of EU nationals - it was full of Eastern Europeans long before the EU Eastern expansion and has been something of a magnet for further settlement because there were so many already there. If I sit in the pub and talk to them or go into one of the many shops run and served by them in the town they are entirely unconcerned. The attitude is that a deal will be done and that it will mean no real change in their status. You go looking for horror stories whilst ignoring the majority of people just getting on with their lives and then act all upset when you find them.
You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
So, Topping went out and looked for answers that suited his case. You disinterestedly discussed things and found entirely coincidentally that what you were told fitted with what you think!
More seriously - it's very possible that you could both be right. My experience is that EU nationals are very concerned about their status and do feel less valued. However, my experience is a narrow one and is focused on higher level professionals who have been in the UK for a while. They felt they had a stake here, but no longer do. It could well be that many other EU nationals feel they have a less of a stake in the future of the UK and so feel less upset at current developments.
No you looked for and got a response you expected. My home town is full of EU nationals - it was full of Eastern Europeans long before the EU Eastern expansion and has been something of a magnet for further settlement because there were so many already there. If I sit in the pub and talk to them or go into one of the many shops run and served by them in the town they are entirely unconcerned. The attitude is that a deal will be done and that it will mean no real change in their status. You go looking for horror stories whilst ignoring the majority of people just getting on with their lives and then act all upset when you find them.
You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
Lets take Eastern England as an example. Our agricultural and food manufacturing industry is almost entirely reliant on EU labour because the locals don't want that kind of work. It sounds like they don't want the EU labour either but as we leave the choice will be simple - do you want to do it? No? Then shut up and let the workforce stay.
Nothing will change after Brexit. The "foreigners" will stay right where they are doing the jobs our own people are too lazy/up themselves to do. And when the majority of people voting for Brexit in those parts realise it, there will be hell to pay.
And thats with the deal the Europeans will give us - which as is increasingly clear is "nothing". The negotiating position appears to be "now look here foreign types, we want access to your club but we won't pay the fees or follow the rules. Thats ok isn't it?" And when the answer is "no" they don't know what to do. For all that people say 'don't let Jezza near the levers of power' look at the hapless cretins we currently have. "Strong and Stable" will be the words chiselled on May's tombstone.
'10:23 PM visit kept closely controlled Having covered several high-profile politicians' and royal visits over the years, the level of media control here is far and above anything I've seen before. We're not even allowed to show you her visiting the building.
10:39 No filming allowed at questions Here is another example of the tight media control over the visit: All journalists are only allowed two questions for Mrs May, and we are not allowed to film her answering our questions.
10:46 Three minutes of the PM's time We've been allowed to ask our questions to the prime minister (although we are forbidden to film or photograph her answering them). We were given at most three minutes and were refused to be allowed to ask why we were not allowed to film her. Our reporter Lyn was then ushered out of the room.
10:51 Strong leadership Mrs may managed to get the words 'strong' and 'leadership' into her second sentence.'
I've decided to do something revolutionary and post on the topic. In many ways Thursdays results should be irrelevant to the GE. But of course they are not. The results will expose UKIP as the busted flush they are without Farage and tosend them tumbling further in the polls. Labour will lose heavily and if they fail to win the West Midlands Mayoralty it will be the death knell of any chances they had on June 8th. The Tories performance in the West Country will be critical and watch out for Cambridgeshire. It's the Lib Dems who will come out happiest, but can they turn their likely success into parliamentary seats?
I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?
Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.
You HAVE to listen to it. You won't get the full experience just from a description.
I have just come back from Town and it is all over Sky news. This is today's story and Abbott's unbelievable incompetence in explaining the cost of their flag ship policy. It seems by her maths the Officers would be paid about £8,000 pa
Sky caught up with Corbyn on a local visit in Southampton where he said she has corrected it, so it is OK. Sky kindly pointed out that only two or three of his supporters turned out to greet him and on camera it was embarrassing.
Clearly the Abbott thing was a mistake so I doubt any votes will be influenced. If it were actually policy to pay police (or anyone) £8,000 it would be a different matter, of course.
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
This might be a silly question, but am I to presume you are out actively canvassing for the Conservatives?
I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?
Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.
You HAVE to listen to it. You won't get the full experience just from a description.
I have just come back from Town and it is all over Sky news. This is today's story and Abbott's unbelievable incompetence in explaining the cost of their flag ship policy. It seems by her maths the Officers would be paid about £8,000 pa
Sky caught up with Corbyn on a local visit in Southampton where he said she has corrected it, so it is OK. Sky kindly pointed out that only two or three of his supporters turned out to greet him and on camera it was embarrassing.
Clearly the Abbott thing was a mistake so I doubt any votes will be influenced. If it were actually policy to pay police (or anyone) £8,000 it would be a different matter, of course.
She was given multiple opportunities to correct herself and just got it more and more wrong. It wasn't that she misspoke, she had no idea what the policy was, how much it would cost or how it would be paid for.
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
No you looked for and got a response you expected. My home town is full of EU nationals - it was full of Eastern Europeans long before the EU Eastern expansion and has been something of a magnet for further settlement because there were so many already there. If I sit in the pub and talk to them or go into one of the many shops run and served by them in the town they are entirely unconcerned. The attitude is that a deal will be done and that it will mean no real change in their status. You go looking for horror stories whilst ignoring the majority of people just getting on with their lives and then act all upset when you find them.
You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
You are either an idiot (can't rule it out), or have never canvassed (a liability to whichever party you express loyalty to, if any, so no surprise there either).
The process includes asking people on the doorstep or on the telephone what they think are the key issues in the forthcoming election. Hence they tend to tell you unprovoked.
The only "steer" is the fact that I say I am from the Conservative Party.
Of course, EU nationals do not have a vote in the General Election.
So, if you're spending most of your time talking to them on the doorstep, you are not very efficiently canvassing support for your party.
I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?
Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.
You HAVE to listen to it. You won't get the full experience just from a description.
I have just come back from Town and it is all over Sky news. This is today's story and Abbott's unbelievable incompetence in explaining the cost of their flag ship policy. It seems by her maths the Officers would be paid about £8,000 pa
Sky caught up with Corbyn on a local visit in Southampton where he said she has corrected it, so it is OK. Sky kindly pointed out that only two or three of his supporters turned out to greet him and on camera it was embarrassing.
Clearly the Abbott thing was a mistake so I doubt any votes will be influenced. If it were actually policy to pay police (or anyone) £8,000 it would be a different matter, of course.
The problem was not so much the £8,000 it was her complete incoherence.
It was a 'car crash' of all car crash interviews and may well become a classic story of labour under Corbyn in 2017
Lets take Eastern England as an example. Our agricultural and food manufacturing industry is almost entirely reliant on EU labour because the locals don't want that kind of work. It sounds like they don't want the EU labour either but as we leave the choice will be simple - do you want to do it? No? Then shut up and let the workforce stay.
Nothing will change after Brexit. The "foreigners" will stay right where they are doing the jobs our own people are too lazy/up themselves to do.
What do they do instead? I mean how do they eat?
You omit to mention that the workers from eastern Europe work for lower wages than the Brits.
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
No you looked for and got a response you expected. My home town is full of EU nationals - it was full of Eastern Europeans long before the EU Eastern expansion and has been something of a magnet for further settlement because there were so many already there. If I sit in the pub and talk to them or go into one of the many shops run and served by them in the town they are entirely unconcerned. The attitude is that a deal will be done and that it will mean no real change in their status. You go looking for horror stories whilst ignoring the majority of people just getting on with their lives and then act all upset when you find them.
You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
So, Topping went out and looked for answers that suited his case. You disinterestedly discussed things and found entirely coincidentally that what you were told fitted with what you think!
More seriously - it's very possible that you could both be right. My experience is that EU nationals are very concerned about their status and do feel less valued. However, my experience is a narrow one and is focused on higher level professionals who have been in the UK for a while. They felt they had a stake here, but no longer do. It could well be that many other EU nationals feel they have a less of a stake in the future of the UK and so feel less upset at current developments.
Yes I think that's of course possible. My O Woe feelings cannot be transferred to every EU national. And as I said, it was naive on my part because what on earth did I expect would happen.
But there is no doubt that whether they care about it or not, EU nationals, who make up a non-trivial part of the UK population are undergoing a fundamental change of status and the resulting change in the make up of the UK goes beyond not wanting the CJEU opining on the shape of bananas.
I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?
Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.
She first said that 10,000 cops would cost £300,000, when this was pointed out as being absurd, she said they would cost £80 million; when Ferrari pointed out that this meant the cops would be on £8000 a year, she then said they were going to recruit 25,000 officers, not 10,000.
When again she was pressed on the fact these 10,000 new officers - or 25,000 new officers - were only going to be paid £8000 a year at most, on her figures, she suggested that Labour intended to recruit 250,000 new officers.
When this new figure was questioned, a quarter of a million new policemen and women, she said in actual fact Labour intended to recruit 2000 new officers, and also 250, making 2250.
When asked why she'd said they intended to recruit 250,000 new officers, she then claimed that she'd never said this, despite just saying it on live radio.
At this point the interview concluded, with a painful rustling of papers, as Abbott was audibly handed the "right" figures.
But you have to listen to it, to get the full majesty of excruciating pauses and evasions. It is superb.
This is what happens when someone who has never had any kind of policy-making responsibility in her life, and who has spent her entire political career stuck in a bubble, faces a bit of scrutiny. Entirely predictable and utterly delicious, except that it means the government will face no serious opposition as it steers its way through some of the most important peacetime years this country has ever faced.
Should the Labour party ever get its act together, the first thing the new leader should deliver is an abject apology to the British people for letting them down so profoundly over the last seven years.
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome.
Unless they are also citizens of a Commonwealth country - Cyprus or Malta or from the Republic of Ireland, the couldn't have voted Cons, except in local council elections.
However you ignore the distress of million of British citizens over many many years, who felt their culture, sovereignty and identity was taken away from them, often by mass immigration which transformed their towns and neighbourhoods without their consent. This is why many of them turned to Brexit, adding up to 17.4 million votes, the largest vote in British history.
But perhaps these alienated British people, in poorer areas, matter less to you than middle class Spanish surgeons and affluent French bankers.
The tragedy for those people is that Brexit will not solve their concerns.
Indeed a 5-10% reduction in GDP will hit them hardest.
Lets take Eastern England as an example. Our agricultural and food manufacturing industry is almost entirely reliant on EU labour because the locals don't want that kind of work. It sounds like they don't want the EU labour either but as we leave the choice will be simple - do you want to do it? No? Then shut up and let the workforce stay.
Nothing will change after Brexit. The "foreigners" will stay right where they are doing the jobs our own people are too lazy/up themselves to do.
What do they do instead? I mean how do they eat?
You omit to mention that the workers from eastern Europe work for lower wages than the Brits.
Cyan, you are talking nonsense. Such work pays the minimum wage to British or Eastern European workers. The difference is that the Eastern European workers work.
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
This might be a silly question, but am I to presume you are out actively canvassing for the Conservatives?
If so, where, may I ask?
Ealing Central & Acton
Interesting. Thanks.
And what is your sense of how those actually entitled to vote in the GE are moving? Any Labour/UKIP switchers? Con to LD switchers? Or is it all pretty firm as last time?
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
No you looked for and got a the pub and talk to them or go into one of the many shops run and served by them in the town they are entirely unconcerned. The attitude is that a deal will be done and that it will mean no real change in their status. You go looking for horror stories whilst ignoring the majority of people just getting on with their lives and then act all upset when you find them.
You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
You are either an idiot (can't rule it out), or have never canvassed (a liability to whichever party you express loyalty to, if any, so no surprise there either).
The process includes asking people on the doorstep or on the telephone what they think are the key issues in the forthcoming election. Hence they tend to tell you unprovoked.
The only "steer" is the fact that I say I am from the Conservative Party.
Of course, EU nationals do not have a vote in the General Election.
So, if you're spending most of your time talking to them on the doorstep, you are not very efficiently canvassing support for your party.
No indeed they don't but there are plenty of UK/EU national families out there, plus those who have become British citizens and therefore have the vote or, more importanly, are on the electoral role (= can vote whatever the circumstances), which is how canvassing works as well you know (I hope).
Incidentally, have you read the govt pages on the status of EU nationals? Pretty dispiriting in terms of information if people are worried about it all.
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome.
Unless they are also citizens of a Commonwealth country - Cyprus or Malta or from the Republic of Ireland, the couldn't have voted Cons, except in local council elections.
As mentioned above, there are flavours of EU nationals, including citizens of the UK and marriages with a spouse.
Lets take Eastern England as an example. Our agricultural and food manufacturing industry is almost entirely reliant on EU labour because the locals don't want that kind of work. It sounds like they don't want the EU labour either but as we leave the choice will be simple - do you want to do it? No? Then shut up and let the workforce stay.
Nothing will change after Brexit. The "foreigners" will stay right where they are doing the jobs our own people are too lazy/up themselves to do.
What do they do instead? I mean how do they eat?
You omit to mention that the workers from eastern Europe work for lower wages than the Brits.
The opportunity that Brexit provides is that as we get no deal from the EU we will have to become more self sufficient. That should give agriculture / food a chance to produce and supply more UK products to the UK market. If imports will soar in costs as we try and cope with the customs chaos of leaving the customs union then yes these factories could pay more.
Otherwise they can't - a lot of food picking / processing / manufacturing businesses operate on minimal margins as it is. The supermarkets refuse to pay a penny more for product if there is cheaper available especially with private label, so "just pay more" right now is impossible.
It's not cherry-picking. It's guaranteeing existing rights.
It is cherry picking.
What 'existing rights' will British businesses have after we become a Third Country?
When the EU does it, its not cherry picking, when the UK does, it is.
Both the UK and the EU have made absolutely clear that the number one priority is to sort out the position of UK and EU citizens.
Which the U't get the blame'......
T
Oh FFS stop whingeing and do some reading. Here, the last sentences, in today's Telegraph report on this issue.
"The EU wants Mrs May to guarantee all rights of its citizens, including free healthcare, pension rights and legal rights to appeal immigration decisions.
British officials say they are willing to rapidly grant those rights via UK law."
So we're happy to do what the EU wants; it is the EU that is being ridiculous in demanding a parallel legal system within the UK.
We would also, of course, allow these EU citizens to keep their EU passports. So they'd get the best of both worlds.
The EU seems to want Brexit only for those who voted for it whom reside within the territorial bounds of the United Kingdom, but Remain for everyone else backstopped by them.
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
No you looked for and got a response you expected. My home town is full of EU nationals - it was full of Eastern Europeans long before the EU Eastern expansion and has been something of a magnet for further settlement because there were so many already there. If I sit in the pub and talk to them or go into one of the many shops run and served by them in the town they are entirely unconcerned. The attitude is that a deal will be done and that it will mean no real change in their status. You go looking for horror stories whilst ignoring the majority of people just getting on with their lives and then act all upset when you find them.
You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
So, Topping went out and looked for answers that suited his case. You disinterestedly discussed things and found entirely coincidentally that what you were told fitted with what you think!
More seriously - it's very possible that you could both be right. My experience is that EU nationals are very concerned about their status and do feel less valued. However, my experience is a narrow one and is focused on higher level professionals who have been in the UK for a while. They felt they had a stake here, but no longer do. It could well be that many other EU nationals feel they have a less of a stake in the future of the UK and so feel less upset at current developments.
Nope. We both found the answers we were looking for to some extent. But what I found is no change. It is exactly as things have always been and that is a far better reflection of reality than Topping's embarrassing little encounters.
I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?
Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.
She first said that 10,000 cops would cost £300,000, when this was pointed out as being absurd, she said they would cost £80 million; when Ferrari pointed out that this meant the cops would be on £8000 a year, she then said they were going to recruit 25,000 officers, not 10,000.
When again she was pressed on the fact these 10,000 new officers - or 25,000 new officers - were only going to be paid £8000 a year at most, on her figures, she suggested that Labour intended to recruit 250,000 new officers.
When this new figure was questioned, a quarter of a million new policemen and women, she said in actual fact Labour intended to recruit 2000 new officers, and also 250, making 2250.
When asked why she'd said they intended to recruit 250,000 new officers, she then claimed that she'd never said this, despite just saying it on live radio.
At this point the interview concluded, with a painful rustling of papers, as Abbott was audibly handed the "right" figures.
But you have to listen to it, to get the full majesty of excruciating pauses and evasions. It is superb.
Most striking is her clear innumeracy.
I don't expect politicians to be fantastic at maths, but the inability to comprehend even orders of magnitude is surely disqualificatory for senior executive positions ?
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
This might be a silly question, but am I to presume you are out actively canvassing for the Conservatives?
If so, where, may I ask?
Ealing Central & Acton
Interesting. Thanks.
And what is your sense of how those actually entitled to vote in the GE are moving? Any Labour/UKIP switchers? Con to LD switchers? Or is it all pretty firm as last time?
I put a note up on here a week or so ago after a session.
Plenty of Lab => LD switchers; plenty not going to vote Cons (the party was called nazi by one ex-Cons voter); UKIP not been a factor so far. Greens are standing down to give Lab a better chance (they got 1,900 votes in a marginal of 270 votes so quite a big deal).
ECA is a super-remain constituency so much seen through that lens.
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's
I felt and feel embarrassed.
No You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
You are either an idiot (can't rule it out), or have never canvassed (a liability to whichever party you express loyalty to, if any, so no surprise there either).
The process includes asking people on the doorstep or on the telephone what they think are the key issues in the forthcoming election. Hence they tend to tell you unprovoked.
The only "steer" is the fact that I say I am from the Conservative Party.
Of course, EU nationals do not have a vote in the General Election.
So, if you're spending most of your time talking to them on the doorstep, you are not very efficiently canvassing support for your party.
No indeed they don't but there are plenty of UK/EU national families out there, plus those who have become British citizens and therefore have the vote or, more importanly, are on the electoral role (= can vote whatever the circumstances), which is how canvassing works as well you know (I hope).
Incidentally, have you read the govt pages on the status of EU nationals? Pretty dispiriting in terms of information if people are worried about it all.
The problem was not so much the £8,000 it was her complete incoherence.
It was a 'car crash' of all car crash interviews and may well become a classic story of labour under Corbyn in 2017
Its consistent with what we already know. That the senior Labour ministers are shit politicians unable to create and then communicate a clear political message such as "we will restore much needed bobbies to the beat funded by reversing corporation tax cuts". And that the media team who manage said shit ministers are also shit.
And the funniest thing of all - that Momentum types will be outraged at the MSM telling lies about Diane Abbott and making her out to be shit. Because obviously she isn't.
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
No you looked for and got a response you expected. My home town is full of EU nationals - it was full of Eastern Europeans long before the EU Eastern expansion and has been something of a magnet for further settlement because there were so many already there. If I sit in the pub and talk to them or go into one of the many shops run and served by them in the town they are entirely unconcerned. The attitude is that a deal will be done and that it will mean no real change in their status. You go looking for horror stories whilst ignoring the majority of people just getting on with their lives and then act all upset when you find them.
You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
You are either an idiot (can't rule it out), or have never canvassed (a liability to whichever party you express loyalty to, if any, so no surprise there either).
The process includes asking people on the doorstep or on the telephone what they think are the key issues in the forthcoming election. Hence they tend to tell you unprovoked.
The only "steer" is the fact that I say I am from the Conservative Party.
Why are you wasting time canvassing people who can't vote?
Personally I just think you are a thoroughly dishonest character who is making it up.
But what I found is no change. It is exactly as things have always been and that is a far better reflection of reality than Topping's embarrassing little encounters.
Sorry Richard, I think you must be the only person on the planet for whom Brexit means "no change", "is a far better reflection of reality" than anything else.
it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently.
Link to proposals please?
I cannot link to proposals because the UK government is keeping them secret. I can only link to reports of what the proposals are, as I did below. It seems as if the UK is suggesting that EU citizens be treated as third country nationals post-Brexit. That would imply a significant reduction in their current rights. Ditto for UK nationals living in the EU, of course.
So, you don't actually know the position but are claiming that position as fact.
I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?
Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.
She first said that 10,000 cops would cost £300,000, when this was pointed out as being absurd, she said they would cost £80 million; when Ferrari pointed out that this meant the cops would be on £8000 a year, she then said they were going to recruit 25,000 officers, not 10,000.
When again she was pressed on the fact these 10,000 new officers - or 25,000 new officers - were only going to be paid £8000 a year at most, on her figures, she suggested that Labour intended to recruit 250,000 new officers.
When this new figure was questioned, a quarter of a million new policemen and women, she said in actual fact Labour intended to recruit 2000 new officers, and also 250, making 2250.
When asked why she'd said they intended to recruit 250,000 new officers, she then claimed that she'd never said this, despite just saying it on live radio.
At this point the interview concluded, with a painful rustling of papers, as Abbott was audibly handed the "right" figures.
But you have to listen to it, to get the full majesty of excruciating pauses and evasions. It is superb.
This is what happens when someone who has never had any kind of policy-making responsibility in her life, and who has spent her entire political career stuck in a bubble, faces a bit of scrutiny. Entirely predictable and utterly delicious, except that it means the government will face no serious opposition as it steers its way through some of the most important peacetime years this country has ever faced.
Should the Labour party ever get its act together, the first thing the new leader should deliver is an abject apology to the British people for letting them down so profoundly over the last seven years.
I am a conservative as you will know but the state of labour is something I am very concerned about. I get no pleasure in seeing them looking down both barrels of a gun but many of those good and senior labour MP's did not want to face the challenge of deposing Corbyn and, at the very least resign en masse the whip and form their own Independent Labour Party under a new name.
I really hope the electorate will deliver to them a crushing defeat in June so that a re-alignment of labour may have a chance of a new beginning, they have to rid themselves of Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott.
Interestingly, it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently. Nobody at all mentioned this during the referendum. Except the Remain side. Which was accused of fear-mongering.
"Sold down the river"? Surely not. We are allowing them to remain in the embrace of a warm and nurturing organisation (the EU) who will demonstrate their moral superiority over the naughty British Leavers by looking after them. Far better they stay where they are than come back to the "hell hole" future that is forecast for the UK by some remainers.
Lets take Eastern England as an example. Our agricultural and food manufacturing industry is almost entirely reliant on EU labour because the locals don't want that kind of work. It sounds like they don't want the EU labour either but as we leave the choice will be simple - do you want to do it? No? Then shut up and let the workforce stay.
Nothing will change after Brexit. The "foreigners" will stay right where they are doing the jobs our own people are too lazy/up themselves to do.
What do they do instead? I mean how do they eat?
You omit to mention that the workers from eastern Europe work for lower wages than the Brits.
Cyan, you are talking nonsense. Such work pays the minimum wage to British or Eastern European workers. The difference is that the Eastern European workers work.
RochdalePioneers said the Brits don't do that work because they're too lazy and up themselves. Assuming they don't all have stonking great private incomes, I'm asking what they do instead.
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
It's most telling when speaking with either those sympathetic to the plight of, or who actually are EU nationals. There is an ongoing traumatic change in our relationship to foreigners. They are variously bemused, aghast, distraught, amazed. These previous Cons voters now have been booted out of the club and made not welcome. A previously hugely integrated part of our citizenry alienated.
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
No you looked for and got a response you expected. My home town is full of EU nationals - it was full of Eastern Europeans long before the EU Eastern expansion and has been something of a magnet for further settlement because there were so many already there. If I sit in the pub and talk to them or go into one of the many shops run and served by them in the town they are entirely unconcerned. The attitude is that a deal will be done and that it will mean no real change in their status. You go looking for horror stories whilst ignoring the majority of people just getting on with their lives and then act all upset when you find them.
You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
You are either an idiot (can't rule it out), or have never canvassed (a liability to whichever party you express loyalty to, if any, so no surprise there either).
The process includes asking people on the doorstep or on the telephone what they think are the key issues in the forthcoming election. Hence they tend to tell you unprovoked.
The only "steer" is the fact that I say I am from the Conservative Party.
Why are you wasting time canvassing people who can't vote?
Personally I just think you are a thoroughly dishonest character who is making it up.
I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?
Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.
She first said that 10,000 cops would cost £300,000, when this was pointed out as being absurd, she said they would cost £80 million; when Ferrari pointed out that this meant the cops would be on £8000 a year, she then said they were going to recruit 25,000 officers, not 10,000.
When again she was pressed on the fact these 10,000 new officers - or 25,000 new officers - were only going to be paid £8000 a year at most, on her figures, she suggested that Labour intended to recruit 250,000 new officers.
When this new figure was questioned, a quarter of a million new policemen and women, she said in actual fact Labour intended to recruit 2000 new officers, and also 250, making 2250.
When asked why she'd said they intended to recruit 250,000 new officers, she then claimed that she'd never said this, despite just saying it on live radio.
At this point the interview concluded, with a painful rustling of papers, as Abbott was audibly handed the "right" figures.
But you have to listen to it, to get the full majesty of excruciating pauses and evasions. It is superb.
Sounds too much like parody to possibly be true, I will listen with eagerness when I get the chance, but in the field of denying you've just said something when you provably did, Abbot is one I'd expect to do something like that. I think Fox recently denied tweeting something when it was on screen behind him or something? It's great when that sort of thing happens.
This might be a silly question, but am I to presume you are out actively canvassing for the Conservatives?
If so, where, may I ask?
Ealing Central & Acton
Interesting. Thanks.
And what is your sense of how those actually entitled to vote in the GE are moving? Any Labour/UKIP switchers? Con to LD switchers? Or is it all pretty firm as last time?
I put a note up on here a week or so ago after a session.
Plenty of Lab => LD switchers; plenty not going to vote Cons (the party was called nazi by one ex-Cons voter); UKIP not been a factor so far. Greens are standing down to give Lab a better chance (they got 1,900 votes in a marginal of 270 votes so quite a big deal).
ECA is a super-remain constituency so much seen through that lens.
Just a quick question...Do labour corrected figures even add up?
300 million for 10,000 extra, so £30k a year. I believe it is £25k starting salary a year outside London, more for the MET and increases every year for first 3-4 years guaranteed.
But you also have to add in cost of paying NI, pension, uniform, equipment, training, etc etc etc.
it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently.
Link to proposals please?
I cannot link to proposals because the UK government is keeping them secret. I can only link to reports of what the proposals are, as I did below. It seems as if the UK is suggesting that EU citizens be treated as third country nationals post-Brexit. That would imply a significant reduction in their current rights. Ditto for UK nationals living in the EU, of course.
Isn't that simply the logical consequence of the EU insisting that the UK will be a 'Third Country'?
Are you suggesting the EU 'hasn't thought this through?
The UK becoming a Third Country - which is what Brexit is clearly all about - does not mean that rights currently enjoyed by UK citizens living in the EU27 must be removed.
"No cherry picking"
It's not cherry-picking. It's guaranteeing existing rights.
It is cherry picking.
What 'existing rights' will British businesses have after we become a Third Country?
When the EU does it, its not cherry picking, when the UK does, it is.
Both the UK and the EU have made absolutely clear that the number one priority is to sort out the position of UK and EU citizens.
Which the UK has been trying to sort out since before Christmas.....blocked by the EU which is 'anxious to make sure it doesn't get the blame'......
Trying to sort something out by offering a deal that you know will be unacceptable is not trying to sort something out.
You mean like demanding UK law apply to U.K. Citizens in the EU27?
To be honest you seem more concerned about whether the deal we get impacts on the PM's popularity than whether it is a good deal for the country.
Certainly sections of the populace and their media cheerleaders will go into overdrive along the plucky Blighty takes on the EU line, Dunkirk spirit etc etc. However if we get a bad deal/no deal and our economy is damaged then it is going to matter little to most people who's fault it was.
There will come a time when simply blaming the EU for all our problems is not going to wash - it's going to cause an existential crisis at the Mail & Express. At the moment it's a convenient shield for blaming any ill-effects of Brexit on the EU rather than the Conservative Party and some people will buy it but many will see through and blame Brexit itself.
As BeverleyC says May is the only game in town now - the test of popularity will come when we see how she handles Brexit and what she does with her large majority. I am still hoping for a soft EFTA-type landing but I am beginning to fear the worst.
The thing is that the more the EU make idiotic demands or set pre conditions and do their own cherry picking, the far easier it becomes to pin the blame on them for a hard Brexit. Already people know that this is not going to be an easy or straightforward process. WatO on Radio 4 yesterday made it clear that people are aware of this. So the expectation of problems is already there and accepted. The EU playing silly buggers before the negotiations have even started will not help them in the process as it simply confirms what people already thought about them (remember even amongst Remain voters there is a huge groundswell of distrust and dislike of the EU. True believers like Williamglenn are very rare.)
All this actually does is make it easier for May to sell a hard Brexit to the public on the basis she tried her best but the EU were only interested in punishment.
My point is that if we go down an economically damaging route the result for the UK will be the same whoever people care to blame for. It will matter little that the Mail will be chanting that the Germans don't like it up 'em at the time. Sooner or later the EU will not be a credible scapegoat.
But what I found is no change. It is exactly as things have always been and that is a far better reflection of reality than Topping's embarrassing little encounters.
Sorry Richard, I think you must be the only person on the planet for whom Brexit means "no change", "is a far better reflection of reality" than anything else.
Misquoting again Scott. I was referring to the views of the EU nationals on their prospects in the UK, not Brexit overall.
Then again you always were thoroughly divorced from reality.
I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?
Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.
She first said that 10,000 cops would cost £300,000, when this was pointed out as being absurd, she said they would cost £80 million; when Ferrari pointed out that this meant the cops would be on £8000 a year, she then said they were going to recruit 25,000 officers, not 10,000.
When again she was pressed on the fact these 10,000 new officers - or 25,000 new officers - were only going to be paid £8000 a year at most, on her figures, she suggested that Labour intended to recruit 250,000 new officers.
When this new figure was questioned, a quarter of a million new policemen and women, she said in actual fact Labour intended to recruit 2000 new officers, and also 250, making 2250.
When asked why she'd said they intended to recruit 250,000 new officers, she then claimed that she'd never said this, despite just saying it on live radio.
At this point the interview concluded, with a painful rustling of papers, as Abbott was audibly handed the "right" figures.
But you have to listen to it, to get the full majesty of excruciating pauses and evasions. It is superb.
Most striking is her clear innumeracy.
I don't expect politicians to be fantastic at maths, but the inability to comprehend even orders of magnitude is surely disqualificatory for senior executive positions ?
I was incredibly impressed by Ferrari doing his sums on the fly - obviously I can divide 80m by 10,000, but I have to write the numbers down and cross off the 0s.
But you also have to add in cost of paying NI, pension, uniform, equipment, training, etc etc etc.
That's the worst bit when politicians talk about recruitment, even when on top of their brief they tend to talk about wages as though that's the only cost involved.
Abbott couldn't even manage that, and she'd be in charge of the police in 5 weeks time if the country goes completely mad and votes for these idiots.
Just found a titbit from an FOI from 5 years ago for a Nottingham police. 5 years ago, for year 1, it cost £30k a year in payroll plus another £13k to hire a police officer and this is for outside London.
So no labours figures don't add up. Can't the media use Google?
With inflation and London premium it could easily now be double what labour claim. DOUBLE.
And to think the bbc news did a whole fact check fake news article on nuttall claim on immigration numbers where he for once he wasnt far from the truth (and gave a caveat of "about").
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
No you
You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
You are either an idiot (can't rule it out), or have never canvassed (a liability to whichever party you express loyalty to, if any, so no surprise there either).
The process includes asking people on the doorstep or on the telephone what they think are the key issues in the forthcoming election. Hence they tend to tell you unprovoked.
The only "steer" is the fact that I say I am from the Conservative Party.
I've encountered some distressed EU nationals, like you, and I feel very sorry for them (likewise for British expats in the EU). I hope their anxieties can be assuaged as soon as possible, and I reckon our government is trying to do that, and it is the EU which is possibly being more obstructive, in overdoing the demands. But with goodwill we will get there.
I've also met plenty of EU nationals who don't care, and think it will all be fine.
However you ignore the distress of million of British citizens over many many years, who felt their culture, sovereignty and identity was taken away from them, often by mass immigration which transformed their towns and neighbourhoods without their consent. This is why many of them turned to Brexit, adding up to 17.4 million votes, the largest vote in British history.
But perhaps these alienated British people, in poorer areas, matter less to you than middle class Spanish surgeons and affluent French bankers.
Nevertheless if younger EU nationals feel unwelcome and progressively less interested in studying, working or staying here, and the steady trickle of relocations of more senior positions from the Uk to Eu continues, on top of the flow of white middle-aged people moving out of Outer London that's been apparent now for some years, we can be reasonably confident in calling a top in the London property market. And that's before considering the impact of buy-to-let becoming less attractive and possible restrictions on overseas buyers.
More than 10% of British citizens have or are entitled to Irish passports. All you need is a grandparent who was born in Ireland. They will still be able to swan through the EU-EEA channel at Orly.
Well, most memes are bullcrap anyway, but it hardly matters if true or not, if it fits what people think is true, which it does, it can have some impact.
Lets take Eastern England as an example. Our agricultural and food manufacturing industry is almost entirely reliant on EU labour because the locals don't want that kind of work. It sounds like they don't want the EU labour either but as we leave the choice will be simple - do you want to do it? No? Then shut up and let the workforce stay.
Nothing will change after Brexit. The "foreigners" will stay right where they are doing the jobs our own people are too lazy/up themselves to do.
What do they do instead? I mean how do they eat?
You omit to mention that the workers from eastern Europe work for lower wages than the Brits.
The opportunity that Brexit provides is that as we get no deal from the EU we will have to become more self sufficient. That should give agriculture / food a chance to produce and supply more UK products to the UK market. If imports will soar in costs as we try and cope with the customs chaos of leaving the customs union then yes these factories could pay more.
Otherwise they can't - a lot of food picking / processing / manufacturing businesses operate on minimal margins as it is. The supermarkets refuse to pay a penny more for product if there is cheaper available especially with private label, so "just pay more" right now is impossible.
You might have answered your own question there: UK jobs in food and agriculture do not pay sufficient wages to attract UK workers, but do for Eastern European workers. There may also be the factor of the UK work ethic (such work is hard, tedious, and the pay isn't fantastic in any event - I once picked grapes at a vineyard for just 3 hours as part of a university summer job, I was knackered after an hour, with my productivity well below the migrant workers, and combined with the v. unimpressive pay I quit later that week and found something else)
But there are lots of moving parts here.
Cheap labour keeps food prices down, where all operate on tight margins. Yet CAP keeps food prices up and probably some jobs wouldn't exist at all without it. Yet the abolition of CAP would lead to cheaper food overall, and more high-end, high-paying farming.
Yet automation may lead to many of these food picking and processing jobs going anyway.
Short answer: economic stagnation combined with rapid social change do not for harmony make.
Tom Watson speech: "People are worried about the risk of robots taking their jobs. I fear with this Prime Minister it’s already happened."
Pretty good line. I'd still vote for a robot over Corbyn though, and Watson is implicitly telling me he thinks Corbyn should be Prime Minister, and I cannot trust a man who says that.
it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently.
Link to proposals please?
I course.
Isn't that simply the logical consequence of the EU insisting that the UK will be a 'Third Country'?
Are you suggesting the EU 'hasn't thought this through?
The UK becoming a Third Country - which is what Brexit is clearly all about - does not mean that rights currently enjoyed by UK citizens living in the EU27 must be removed.
"No cherry picking"
It's not cherry-picking. It's guaranteeing existing rights.
It is cherry picking.
What 'existing rights' will British businesses have after we become a Third Country?
When the EU does it, its not cherry picking, when the UK does, it is.
Both the UK and the EU have made absolutely clear that the number one priority is to sort out the position of UK and EU citizens.
Which the UK has been trying to sort out since before Christmas.....blocked by the EU which is 'anxious to make sure it doesn't get the blame'......
Trying to sort something out by offering a deal that you know will be unacceptable is not trying to sort something out.
You mean like demanding UK law apply to U.K. Citizens in the EU27?
UK law does not apply to UK citizens in the EU27 currently, so there is no issue. EU law does currently apply to EU27 citizens living in the UK and to British citizens living in the EU27. The issue then is when it ceases to how to ensure that existing rights are fully protected. That should be the negotiation.
Tom Watson speech: "People are worried about the risk of robots taking their jobs. I fear with this Prime Minister it’s already happened."
Pretty good line. I'd still vote for a robot over Corbyn though, and Watson is implicitly telling me he thinks Corbyn should be Prime Minister, and I cannot trust a man who says that.
I think Watson is trying to ensure there's a Labour Party worth saving on June 9th than trying to make Corbyn PM.
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
No you
You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
You are either an idiot (can't rule it out), or have never canvassed (a liability to whichever party you express loyalty to, if any, so no surprise there either).
The process includes asking people on the doorstep or on the telephone what they think are the key issues in the forthcoming election. Hence they tend to tell you unprovoked.
The only "steer" is the fact that I say I am from the Conservative Party.
I've encouest vote in British history.
But perhaps these alienated British people, in poorer areas, matter less to you than middle class Spanish surgeons and affluent French bankers.
Nevertheless if younger EU nationals feel unwelcome and progressively less interested in studying, working or staying here, and the steady trickle of relocations of more senior positions from the Uk to Eu continues, on top of the flow of white middle-aged people moving out of Outer London that's been apparent now for some years, we can be reasonably confident in calling a top in the London property market. And that's before considering the impact of buy-to-let becoming less attractive and possible restrictions on overseas buyers.
I agree, which is why I proposed a Young Europeans Visa: two year visas for 18-30 year old Europeans to do whatever they like in the UK, whatever job they want. But no benefits. If, at the end of the two years, they get a higher tier job, or start a business that does well, they get to stay if they want. Hopefully the EU would reciprocate.
We must be welcoming and open. The Tories do understand this.
Some Tories understand it. The KipperTories do not of course.
The local elections this Thursday are only being held in some parts of the country.
So they are like a very large voodoo poll.
The following elections are taking place on 4 May 2017:
Local government elections in England Local government elections in Wales Council elections in Scotland Mayoral elections in England – including combined local authority mayoral elections
To be honest you seem more concerned about whether the deal we get impacts on the PM's popularity than whether it is a good deal for the country.
Certainly sections of the populace and their media cheerleaders will go into overdrive along the plucky Blighty takes on the EU line, Dunkirk spirit etc etc. However if we get a bad deal/no deal and our economy is damaged then it is going to matter little to most people who's fault it was.
There will come a time when simply blaming the EU for all our problems is not going to wash - it's going to cause an existential crisis at the Mail & Express. At the moment it's a convenient shield for blaming any ill-effects of Brexit on the EU rather than the Conservative Party and some people will buy it but many will see through and blame Brexit itself.
As BeverleyC says May is the only game in town now - the test of popularity will come when we see how she handles Brexit and what she does with her large majority. I am still hoping for a soft EFTA-type landing but I am beginning to fear the worst.
The thing is that the more the EU make idiotic demands or set pre conditions and do their own cherry picking, the far easier it becomes to pin the blame on them for a hard Brexit. Already people know that this is not going to be an easy or straightforward process. WatO on Radio 4 yesterday made it clear that people are aware of this. So the expectation of problems is already there and accepted. The EU playing silly buggers before the negotiations have even started will not help them in the process as it simply confirms what people already thought about them (remember even amongst Remain voters there is a huge groundswell of distrust and dislike of the EU. True believers like Williamglenn are very rare.)
All this actually does is make it easier for May to sell a hard Brexit to the public on the basis she tried her best but the EU were only interested in punishment.
My point is that if we go down an economically damaging route the result for the UK will be the same whoever people care to blame for. It will matter little that the Mail will be chanting that the Germans don't like it up 'em at the time. Sooner or later the EU will not be a credible scapegoat.
They will remain a scapegoat - or rather justifiably will continue to be blamed - for as long as they continue to make idiotic threats.
If they either said nothing or just got on with the negotiations without the claims that Britain must be punished then it would be far more difficult for May to claim they were being unreasonable. As it is they are giving her the ammunition she needs and making a hard Brexit - not my first choice - all the more likely and sellable to the British.
BBC Snap: The jobless rate in the countries that use the euro was unchanged at 9.5% last month. That was slightly higher than the 9.4% expected by economists.
Lets take Eastern England as an example. Our agricultural and food manufacturing industry is almost entirely reliant on EU labour because the locals don't want that kind of work. It sounds like they don't want the EU labour either but as we leave the choice will be simple - do you want to do it? No? Then shut up and let the workforce stay.
Nothing will change after Brexit. The "foreigners" will stay right where they are doing the jobs our own people are too lazy/up themselves to do.
What do they do instead? I mean how do they eat?
You omit to mention that the workers from eastern Europe work for lower wages than the Brits.
Cyan, you are talking nonsense. Such work pays the minimum wage to British or Eastern European workers. The difference is that the Eastern European workers work.
RochdalePioneers said the Brits don't do that work because they're too lazy and up themselves. Assuming they don't all have stonking great private incomes, I'm asking what they do instead.
They do other jobs! I don't think unemployment is particularly high in these parts, there is other work that is preferable, so they do that. But as we still need people to harvest crops and process and manufacture them into food, that either means in come the migrants or we bin agriculture.
My point was that so many people in places like Lincolnshire seem to despise migrants but there's a reason they came over - jobs that locals didn't want. And if the EU nationals go home the workforce won't be there to take over. Which is why Brexit or not, regardless of how large a % of people in say Boston voted to leave, nothing will change for them after Brexit.
So there I was earlier saying how well the Labour campaign was going, when along comes Diane Abbott to feck things up. What a total waste of space.
Like on Brexit, I did warn you about the mistake you were making voting for Corbyn.
You should listen to me, I have your best interests at heart.
Mr Eagles, thank you for your concern. However, I am certain that I voted the right way on Brexit, and voting Corbyn in 2015 was a shit-or-bust option, when the rest of the candidates were just vanilla. With the 'bust' playing out, he was meant to have gone before the election. Oh well.
My view of Abbott has been unwavering, reinforced by her less than friendly response to my other half when she said hello to Abbott in the cafe in Peter Jones (where all true socialists shop).
Another weekend of canvassing and, although it should be bl**dy obvious, it is increasingly hitting me how fundamentally our society is about to change with Brexit (and I a hitherto remainer who expected challenges).
Naively on my part, it didn't really sink in, all this debate about "EU Nationals" what it meant on an individual level until all these conversations.
I felt and feel embarrassed.
No you
You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
You are either an idiot (can't rule it out), or have never canvassed (a liability to whichever party you express loyalty to, if any, so no surprise there either).
The process includes asking people on the doorstep or on the telephone what they think are the key issues in the forthcoming election. Hence they tend to tell you unprovoked.
The only "steer" is the fact that I say I am from the Conservative Party.
I've encouest vote in British history.
But perhaps these alienated British people, in poorer areas, matter less to you than middle class Spanish surgeons and affluent French bankers.
Nevertheless if younger EU nationals feel unwelcome and progressively less interested in studying, working or staying here, and the steady trickle of relocations of more senior positions from the Uk to Eu continues, on top of the flow of white middle-aged people moving out of Outer London that's been apparent now for some years, we can be reasonably confident in calling a top in the London property market. And that's before considering the impact of buy-to-let becoming less attractive and possible restrictions on overseas buyers.
I agree, which is why I proposed a Young Europeans Visa: two year visas for 18-30 year old Europeans to do whatever they like in the UK, whatever job they want. But no benefits. If, at the end of the two years, they get a higher tier job, or start a business that does well, they get to stay if they want. Hopefully the EU would reciprocate.
We must be welcoming and open. The Tories do understand this.
I thought we decided that something very similar already existed between the UK and various non-EU countries?
And that we'll have the freedom to extend it or not as we wish?
I don't have sound here, but how did the Abbot botch an interview regarding 10k more police ?
Sounds reasonable enough as a policy, if a bit expensive.
She first said that 10,000 cops would cost £300,000, when this was pointed out as being absurd, she said they would cost £80 million; when Ferrari pointed out that this meant the cops would be on £8000 a year, she then said they were going to recruit 25,000 officers, not 10,000.
When again she was pressed on the fact these 10,000 new officers - or 25,000 new officers - were only going to be paid £8000 a year at most, on her figures, she suggested that Labour intended to recruit 250,000 new officers.
When this new figure was questioned, a quarter of a million new policemen and women, she said in actual fact Labour intended to recruit 2000 new officers, and also 250, making 2250.
When asked why she'd said they intended to recruit 250,000 new officers, she then claimed that she'd never said this, despite just saying it on live radio.
At this point the interview concluded, with a painful rustling of papers, as Abbott was audibly handed the "right" figures.
But you have to listen to it, to get the full majesty of excruciating pauses and evasions. It is superb.
Most striking is her clear innumeracy.
I don't expect politicians to be fantastic at maths, but the inability to comprehend even orders of magnitude is surely disqualificatory for senior executive positions ?
I was incredibly impressed by Ferrari doing his sums on the fly - obviously I can divide 80m by 10,000, but I have to write the numbers down and cross off the 0s.
If you watch the video, you can see him quietly doing sums on paper, as he lets her waffle on, digging herself deeper.
Expert interviewing.
Can Newnham College, Cambridge explain how Abbott managed to gain entry, let alone graduate.
Tom Watson speech: "People are worried about the risk of robots taking their jobs. I fear with this Prime Minister it’s already happened."
Pretty good line. I'd still vote for a robot over Corbyn though, and Watson is implicitly telling me he thinks Corbyn should be Prime Minister, and I cannot trust a man who says that.
I think Watson is trying to ensure there's a Labour Party worth saving on June 9th than trying to make Corbyn PM.
It's impossible to separate the two. There will be well over a hundred Labour MPs no matter how bad they do, unless between now and the election they implode, when so far the opposite has occurred. A few dozen more or less won't be critical, and while some backbenchers can try to get away with 'vote me me the local candidate, I don't like Corbyn', Watson cannot. Not credibly. Every time he talks about what Labour could do, as it comes with the weight of his office it has to be taken with the assumption 'and I believe Corbyn should be PM'. Otherwise he'd not be in the shadow cabinet. I doubt he does want that, but he gets no brownie points from me for it.
Tom Watson speech: "People are worried about the risk of robots taking their jobs. I fear with this Prime Minister it’s already happened."
This gag is so clever I suspect Mandelson is behind it. I don't think it will stick throughout the campaign though; one only has to look at Sunday's Marr on iplayer to remind oneself what a competent, sensible and likable person she is, though.
Always interesting to hear the views on the qualities desirable in a leader from the party which pulled off the impressive treble of Brown, Miliband, Corbyn, of course.
Misquoting again Scott. I was referring to the views of the EU nationals on their prospects in the UK, not Brexit overall.
But that is also nonsense.
Right now they have free movement, and in future they won't.
Not even you can describe that as "no change", surely?
The expectation, which I think is entirely probable, is that those already settled here will continue to have free movement - unless of course you are expecting the EU to say they are not allowed to go home once in a while. I mean I know the EU are making a lot of threats but even they wouldn't go that far would they?
It's not cherry-picking. It's guaranteeing existing rights.
It is cherry picking.
What 'existing rights' will British businesses have after we become a Third Country?
When the EU does it, its not cherry picking, when the UK does, it is.
Both the UK and the EU have made absolutely clear that the number one priority is to sort out the position of UK and EU citizens.
Which the U't get the blame'......
Trying to a judgement on its reasonableness.
Oh FFS stop whingeing and do some reading. Here, the last sentences, in today's Telegraph report on this issue.
"The EU wants Mrs May to guarantee all rights of its citizens, including free healthcare, pension rights and legal rights to appeal immigration decisions.
British officials say they are willing to rapidly grant those rights via UK law."
So we're happy to do what the EU wants; it is the EU that is being ridiculous in demanding a parallel legal system within the UK.
We would also, of course, allow these EU citizens to keep their EU passports. So they'd get the best of both worlds.
If we are happy to do what the EU wants surely we should just confirm that EU citizens currently residing in the UK will keep what they have now: full equality of treatment with UK citizens, outside of certain very limited and defined areas. Both sides have made clear this is a first priority issue, so the UK government would calm a lot of nerves and shut a lot of people up by demonstrating clearly this is all about the EU playing silly buggers.
Comments
You are right to be embarrassed but not for the reasons you claim.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/the-scotsman-s-2017-election-manifesto-1-4434541
I think that was the one Gordon Brown signed after refusing to offer the referendum that the government had promised.
https://order-order.com/2017/05/02/diane-abbott-police-numbers-car-crash/
Therefore, if there's no deal, it will be because the EU27 haven't backed down, and don't want one. If that's the case, they could save themselves a lot of trouble, and give themselves more time to put customs infrastructure in place and to plan how to fill their budget black hole, if they said so now, and accepted that the logical corollary of that is an exit payment of €0.
Though unlikely to bother Sir Philip Green and family there are many others who live and work there for whom it's a major concern.
'10:23 PM visit kept closely controlled
Having covered several high-profile politicians' and royal visits over the years, the level of media control here is far and above anything I've seen before. We're not even allowed to show you her visiting the building.
10:39 No filming allowed at questions
Here is another example of the tight media control over the visit: All journalists are only allowed two questions for Mrs May, and we are not allowed to film her answering our questions.
10:46 Three minutes of the PM's time
We've been allowed to ask our questions to the prime minister (although we are forbidden to film or photograph her answering them).
We were given at most three minutes and were refused to be allowed to ask why we were not allowed to film her.
Our reporter Lyn was then ushered out of the room.
10:51 Strong leadership
Mrs may managed to get the words 'strong' and 'leadership' into her second sentence.'
http://tinyurl.com/mru2g6o
Don't ask us to settle a bill, then.
The process includes asking people on the doorstep or on the telephone what they think are the key issues in the forthcoming election. Hence they tend to tell you unprovoked.
The only "steer" is the fact that I say I am from the Conservative Party.
If so, where, may I ask?
Le Pen has copied a Fillon speech and she is appealing to Mélenchon supporters. Who does that sound like? Anyone know what Roger Stone has been up to lately?
What strategy will Macron apply in tomorrow's TV debate? He can't just hope nothing happens and that he'll sail through: Le Pen is a formidable opponent. I reckon he'll go for a few snarly moments that his friends in the media will put on a loop - the moments where Emmanuel shows his strength and passion. But return of serve isn't much when your opponent has a fantastic return of return of serve. I'm not at all sure he'll come off well in a brawl. He will probably lose points, but will she gain enough points or momentum to win?
"L'Avenir en Commun" was the title of Mélenchon's manifesto. This is white Le Pen propaganda, perhaps with a hint of grey.
Sky caught up with Corbyn on a local visit in Southampton where he said she has corrected it, so it is OK. Sky kindly pointed out that only two or three of his supporters turned out to greet him and on camera it was embarrassing.
More seriously - it's very possible that you could both be right. My experience is that EU nationals are very concerned about their status and do feel less valued. However, my experience is a narrow one and is focused on higher level professionals who have been in the UK for a while. They felt they had a stake here, but no longer do. It could well be that many other EU nationals feel they have a less of a stake in the future of the UK and so feel less upset at current developments.
Nothing will change after Brexit. The "foreigners" will stay right where they are doing the jobs our own people are too lazy/up themselves to do. And when the majority of people voting for Brexit in those parts realise it, there will be hell to pay.
And thats with the deal the Europeans will give us - which as is increasingly clear is "nothing". The negotiating position appears to be "now look here foreign types, we want access to your club but we won't pay the fees or follow the rules. Thats ok isn't it?" And when the answer is "no" they don't know what to do. For all that people say 'don't let Jezza near the levers of power' look at the hapless cretins we currently have. "Strong and Stable" will be the words chiselled on May's tombstone.
The Tories performance in the West Country will be critical and watch out for Cambridgeshire. It's the Lib Dems who will come out happiest, but can they turn their likely success into parliamentary seats?
I was vaguely interested to find out, but some casual use of The Google led me to Cod Eye Pirate and I decided enough was enough.
So, if you're spending most of your time talking to them on the doorstep, you are not very efficiently canvassing support for your party.
It was a 'car crash' of all car crash interviews and may well become a classic story of labour under Corbyn in 2017
You omit to mention that the workers from eastern Europe work for lower wages than the Brits.
But there is no doubt that whether they care about it or not, EU nationals, who make up a non-trivial part of the UK population are undergoing a fundamental change of status and the resulting change in the make up of the UK goes beyond not wanting the CJEU opining on the shape of bananas.
Should the Labour party ever get its act together, the first thing the new leader should deliver is an abject apology to the British people for letting them down so profoundly over the last seven years.
Indeed a 5-10% reduction in GDP will hit them hardest.
And what is your sense of how those actually entitled to vote in the GE are moving? Any Labour/UKIP switchers? Con to LD switchers? Or is it all pretty firm as last time?
Incidentally, have you read the govt pages on the status of EU nationals? Pretty dispiriting in terms of information if people are worried about it all.
https://gov.uk/guidance/status-of-eu-nationals-in-the-uk-what-you-need-to-know
Otherwise they can't - a lot of food picking / processing / manufacturing businesses operate on minimal margins as it is. The supermarkets refuse to pay a penny more for product if there is cheaper available especially with private label, so "just pay more" right now is impossible.
I don't expect politicians to be fantastic at maths, but the inability to comprehend even orders of magnitude is surely disqualificatory for senior executive positions ?
Plenty of Lab => LD switchers; plenty not going to vote Cons (the party was called nazi by one ex-Cons voter); UKIP not been a factor so far. Greens are standing down to give Lab a better chance (they got 1,900 votes in a marginal of 270 votes so quite a big deal).
ECA is a super-remain constituency so much seen through that lens.
She voted Leave and is planning to vote Conservative on Thursday, and next month.
She is deeply frustrated by the EU's behaviour.
And the funniest thing of all - that Momentum types will be outraged at the MSM telling lies about Diane Abbott and making her out to be shit. Because obviously she isn't.
Personally I just think you are a thoroughly dishonest character who is making it up.
Ok............
I really hope the electorate will deliver to them a crushing defeat in June so that a re-alignment of labour may have a chance of a new beginning, they have to rid themselves of Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott.
The Country deserves better than this
You should listen to me, I have your best interests at heart.
We are allowing them to remain in the embrace of a warm and nurturing organisation (the EU) who will demonstrate their moral superiority over the naughty British Leavers by looking after them. Far better they stay where they are than come back to the "hell hole" future that is forecast for the UK by some remainers.
Thank you.
300 million for 10,000 extra, so £30k a year. I believe it is £25k starting salary a year outside London, more for the MET and increases every year for first 3-4 years guaranteed.
But you also have to add in cost of paying NI, pension, uniform, equipment, training, etc etc etc.
Then again you always were thoroughly divorced from reality.
Tom Watson speech: "People are worried about the risk of robots taking their jobs. I fear with this Prime Minister it’s already happened."
Right now they have free movement, and in future they won't.
Not even you can describe that as "no change", surely?
Abbott couldn't even manage that, and she'd be in charge of the police in 5 weeks time if the country goes completely mad and votes for these idiots.
So no labours figures don't add up. Can't the media use Google?
With inflation and London premium it could easily now be double what labour claim. DOUBLE.
And to think the bbc news did a whole fact check fake news article on nuttall claim on immigration numbers where he for once he wasnt far from the truth (and gave a caveat of "about").
That doesn't look much like the rest of the world regarding the UK as a hostile place to visit or settle.
Equally, 91% of applications for citizenship are granted.
Put the two together and the individual sob stories about how ghastly Britain is can be seen for what they really are - tiny minority outcomes.
So they are like a very large voodoo poll.
But there are lots of moving parts here.
Cheap labour keeps food prices down, where all operate on tight margins. Yet CAP keeps food prices up and probably some jobs wouldn't exist at all without it. Yet the abolition of CAP would lead to cheaper food overall, and more high-end, high-paying farming.
Yet automation may lead to many of these food picking and processing jobs going anyway.
Short answer: economic stagnation combined with rapid social change do not for harmony make.
"Wouldn't usually vote, father would turn in grave, but going to vote for Brexit (Tories)."
I think Corbyn is probably better matched to his prospective job than Abbott is to hers.
Local government elections in England
Local government elections in Wales
Council elections in Scotland
Mayoral elections in England – including combined local authority mayoral elections
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/elections-and-referendums/upcoming-elections-and-referendums
If they either said nothing or just got on with the negotiations without the claims that Britain must be punished then it would be far more difficult for May to claim they were being unreasonable. As it is they are giving her the ammunition she needs and making a hard Brexit - not my first choice - all the more likely and sellable to the British.
BBC Snap:
The jobless rate in the countries that use the euro was unchanged at 9.5% last month.
That was slightly higher than the 9.4% expected by economists.
Approx double the UK rate.
http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2017/05/the-first-full-week-of-election-polling/
My point was that so many people in places like Lincolnshire seem to despise migrants but there's a reason they came over - jobs that locals didn't want. And if the EU nationals go home the workforce won't be there to take over. Which is why Brexit or not, regardless of how large a % of people in say Boston voted to leave, nothing will change for them after Brexit.
My view of Abbott has been unwavering, reinforced by her less than friendly response to my other half when she said hello to Abbott in the cafe in Peter Jones (where all true socialists shop).
And that we'll have the freedom to extend it or not as we wish?
If the EU is this complex to entangle from then who remembers signing up for these entaglements ? Common market to Borg in 40 years...
Diane Abbott has learned from Trump.
Get your agenda item top of the news by giving them a story to run.
The plebs will not understand the detail but take away a general impression that Diane Abbott wants more police.
She has got her message over to the people who might vote Labour.
Genius - like Trump.
Always interesting to hear the views on the qualities desirable in a leader from the party which pulled off the impressive treble of Brown, Miliband, Corbyn, of course.