The presenter on Radio 5 has just said the fact that the EU seem to be persuing their own interests will harden many in Britain's resolve that they've made the right decision even those who were previous Remainers.
Depressing.
The last week is what has convinced me neither side wants a deal, they want no deal but which they can blame on the other. The leaks make no sense otherwise.
The comments on this thread simply serve to show the scale of the Brexit problem. Sharp divide between those who won't have any criticism of the UK and believe the EU are deliberately setting out to be the enemy and those who think the UK is ill-prepared and unrealistic about what can be achieved. We will find out who is right eventually. But in the meantime, the tone of the side who are anti-EU is much more aggressive. Why do you need to be so rude to people who don't agree with you, guys? Is it so that you don't have to think too hard about how to defend your position?
There is plenty of rudeness and oodles of condescension from the pro eu side Mrs b, and your sharp divide I do not recognise since even on here there is more nuanced opinion than those 2 options, not least because the two can be held simultaneously. Why did you feel the need to suggest those who do not share your view haven't thought hard about these issues?
Mr. kle4, we're in the pre-election phase in the UK, France and Germany. Swaggering and so forth is expected now.
If it persists and a willingness to compromise doesn't appear after the elections are done, that will be a different situation.
We're told on here the stance would be the same regardless. I believe them now, therefore the eu wants no deal.
What you're coming to appreciate is that the EU's 'no deal is better than a bad deal' bluff is 100 times stronger than the UK's.
Are you coming to appreciate that that is still not a good thing for them or us? And do nothing to be happy about. It means they are prioritising short term gain. Surely you would have thought the eu would take a nobler and longer term approach, as we should?
The EU is taking a long term approach. They understand that Brexit is technically difficult and have drawn up a sequenced plan that takes all of this into account and would allow us to move into new arrangements 5 years from now.
If anything, perhaps the purpose of the leak was to try to bring the UK back down to earth and stop pretending that by bluffing, we can somehow force them to turn complex issues into simple ones.
But it has backfired and done nothing to demonstrate the trust that is needed
'Mrs May was presumably serious in suggesting the opt out followed by selective opt-in approach that they used previously for the EU justice and home affairs treaty. This shows a complete misunderstanding of the situation Britain is in relative to the EU following Brexit. ie that Brexit really is Brexit. '
So the EU not allowing selective opt-out / opt-in would also apply to security & intelligence sharing?
The presenter on Radio 5 has just said the fact that the EU seem to be persuing their own interests will harden many in Britain's resolve that they've made the right decision even those who were previous Remainers.
Depressing.
If even the BBC is admitting it...!
Unforced error from the EU.
No. The EU are being completely rational. Either the BBC are employing a supid presenter or she's right and the British public really do believe that their arrogance is justified.
Part of the problem is this insistence the eu is always rational and cannot misstep, and only we are a guilty party. It's not plausible 100% of the time, but that is what we are told.
Mr. kle4, we're in the pre-election phase in the UK, France and Germany. Swaggering and so forth is expected now.
If it persists and a willingness to compromise doesn't appear after the elections are done, that will be a different situation.
We're told on here the stance would be the same regardless. I believe them now, therefore the eu wants no deal.
What you're coming to appreciate is that the EU's 'no deal is better than a bad deal' bluff is 100 times stronger than the UK's.
Are you coming to appreciate that that is still not a good thing for them or us? And do nothing to be happy about. It means they are prioritising short term gain. Surely you would have thought the eu would take a nobler and longer term approach, as we should?
The EU is taking a long term approach. They understand that Brexit is technically difficult and have drawn up a sequenced plan that takes all of this into account and would allow us to move into new arrangements 5 years from now.
If anything, perhaps the purpose of the leak was to try to bring the UK back down to earth and stop pretending that by bluffing, we can somehow force them to turn complex issues into simple ones.
Except they are saying it is simple. Do what they say or no deal. We're the ones trying to open a dialogue because we think it is more complicated.
Given most of the seats up are county council elections and London and cities like Liverpool are not up for election I would expect the LDs to do a bit better than they will at the general election and Labour a bit worse while as some voters might vote LD locally but Tory nationally I would also expect the Tory voteshare to be below what they will get in June even if they cone top as expected. That was the case in 1983 and 1987
The local/national differential will favour the Tories in June, but the higher turnout won't.
I doubt it makes much difference indeed a very high turnout means Leave voters are coming out
Actually the biggest difference between a low turnout and a high turnout is the age mix.
Young people don't tend to vote in local elections.
They vote at the same percentage rate roughly as general elections in locals it is non voters who voted for Brexit May would want to come out for her
The way the EU have handled this is cack - handed. I believe that they are so out of touch with the character of the British that they genuinely believe that by saying the talks could collapse will create a mad panic and suddenly everyone with have remorse and prevent TM getting a reasonable majority.
The problem is that they have been shown to be devious and untrustworthy while TM has risen above the fray and emerged strengthened.
I would be interested to know from those pro EU on this forum if they feel this has enhanced or reduced TM popularity.
I can only answer for myself, but so far I do not feel reassured that she knows what she is about. I feel that, based on reports about Spads and the like deserting No 10, some of her rather apparently abrupt decisions and now this EU meeting fiasco, there must be some truth in the claim that she is not all that adept at managing people and politics is all about people and compromise.
What I am certain of is that she is the only game in town. Corbyn is protester, not a politician and the rest of the parties look like a disorganised, political hotch-potch.
It reminds me of Mrs Thatcher in her early days as PM - you could love her or loathe her but there were no other options for the first few years.
No one in authority here or in the eu appears prepared to compromise. You've made the point that deal making is what the eu is all about, so what's your take when we are repeatedly told here that the uk cannot get anything because the eu have decided their approach?
I don't think we're quite told that.
Best tell that to everyone here who keeps saying the eu will not bend at all and is entirely rational in doing so. I prefer your interpretation, but apparently thinking the eu might be, gasp, willing to negotiate at all, however slight, is a British fantasy.
Mr. Glenn, depends on the nature of the agreement.
Given we're already excluded from certain meetings, being half-out yet paying full fees would not go down well. I have no problem with a transition agreement in itself, though.
Mrs B, motes and beams: "Why do you need to be so rude to people who don't agree with you, guys? Is it so that you don't have to think too hard about how to defend your position?"
In one sentence you condemn those of an opinion that differs from your own for being rude to people whose opinion differs, in the next you're rude about them...
See, there's the problem. Even you are infected MD.
The way the EU have handled this is cack - handed. I believe that they are so out of touch with the character of the British that they genuinely believe that by saying the talks could collapse will create a mad panic and suddenly everyone with have remorse and prevent TM getting a reasonable majority.
The problem is that they have been shown to be devious and untrustworthy while TM has risen above the fray and emerged strengthened.
I would be interested to know from those pro EU on this forum if they feel this has enhanced or reduced TM popularity.
Vastly reduced. She is now a spent force and heading for the ignominy which she so richly deserves. She is also quite personally unpleasant being the manifestion in the flesh of a peculiarly repellent stripe of ignorant bourgeois nationalism and social conservatism.
Sad response
But a revealing one. What really enrages some people is that the Referendum was the first time they have ever lost to social groups that they despise.
I wonder if this year the locals might be of less use than usual, or more divergent compared to the following General Election, to rephrase?
In the election, Scotland will have the question of independence (or not) looming large. Across the whole country, shunning Corbyn will be a theme. Neither of these things play much in local politics. There's also the EU matter.
It feels like a much more important General Election than we've had for quite some time, so may well be quite different to local elections. Labour types planning to jump ship come June may want to psychologically reassert their Labour sense of identity by voting red in May.
What do the lefties who like Labour and loathe Corbyn think?
Reading various threads it is becoming increasingly clear that some of our remainer friends have utterly, utterly lost the plot and actually want us to crash and burn.
Mr. Glenn, depends on the nature of the agreement.
Given we're already excluded from certain meetings, being half-out yet paying full fees would not go down well. I have no problem with a transition agreement in itself, though.
Mrs B, motes and beams: "Why do you need to be so rude to people who don't agree with you, guys? Is it so that you don't have to think too hard about how to defend your position?"
In one sentence you condemn those of an opinion that differs from your own for being rude to people whose opinion differs, in the next you're rude about them...
Exactly. It doesn't contain a curse or a label like moron, but the intent and effect is the same.
Mr. Glenn, depends on the nature of the agreement.
Given we're already excluded from certain meetings, being half-out yet paying full fees would not go down well. I have no problem with a transition agreement in itself, though.
Mrs B, motes and beams: "Why do you need to be so rude to people who don't agree with you, guys? Is it so that you don't have to think too hard about how to defend your position?"
In one sentence you condemn those of an opinion that differs from your own for being rude to people whose opinion differs, in the next you're rude about them...
See, there's the problem. Even you are infected MD.
And there you go again with the insults!
At least others admit what they are doing when they are insulting others. So disappointing.
But in the meantime, the tone of the side who are anti-EU is much more aggressive. Why do you need to be so rude to people who don't agree with you, guys? Is it so that you don't have to think too hard about how to defend your position?
Popular culture and the education system have produced a fairly pronounced “finest hour” reflex in most British people, which is susceptible to an appeal to glorious isolation.
Except they are saying it is simple. Do what they say or no deal
Many people warned over and over again that the EU would have the upper hand in negotiations, but then the arch-Leavers just trundle out with their platitudes list....
"We are too big to be treated like that"
"We are their bankers, we have the whip hand"
"We fund their crazy projects"
"We do not need them... we will trade with the world"
"They will give us what we want or we will stop buying their cars"
The way the EU have handled this is cack - handed. I believe that they are so out of touch with the character of the British that they genuinely believe that by saying the talks could collapse will create a mad panic and suddenly everyone with have remorse and prevent TM getting a reasonable majority.
The problem is that they have been shown to be devious and untrustworthy while TM has risen above the fray and emerged strengthened.
I would be interested to know from those pro EU on this forum if they feel this has enhanced or reduced TM popularity.
I can only answer for myself, but so far I do not feel reassured that she knows what she is about. I feel that, based on reports about Spads and the like deserting No 10, some of her rather apparently abrupt decisions and now this EU meeting fiasco, there must be some truth in the claim that she is not all that adept at managing people and politics is all about people and compromise.
What I am certain of is that she is the only game in town. Corbyn is protester, not a politician and the rest of the parties look like a disorganised, political hotch-potch.
It reminds me of Mrs Thatcher in her early days as PM - you could love her or loathe her but there were no other options for the first few years.
I hold a different opinion, that's all. The basis of democracy is that men can hear the same arguments, see the same evidence, and reach differing but equally valid conclusions.
Do you believe it's illegitimate to want to leave the EU, or are you censuring my conduct/speech? If the latter, an example of how I've behaved poorly would be welcome.
The way the EU have handled this is cack - handed. I believe that they are so out of touch with the character of the British that they genuinely believe that by saying the talks could collapse will create a mad panic and suddenly everyone with have remorse and prevent TM getting a reasonable majority.
The problem is that they have been shown to be devious and untrustworthy while TM has risen above the fray and emerged strengthened.
I would be interested to know from those pro EU on this forum if they feel this has enhanced or reduced TM popularity.
I can only answer for myself, but so far I do not feel reassured that she knows what she is about. I feel that, based on reports about Spads and the like deserting No 10, some of her rather apparently abrupt decisions and now this EU meeting fiasco, there must be some truth in the claim that she is not all that adept at managing people and politics is all about people and compromise.
What I am certain of is that she is the only game in town. Corbyn is protester, not a politician and the rest of the parties look like a disorganised, political hotch-potch.
It reminds me of Mrs Thatcher in her early days as PM - you could love her or loathe her but there were no other options for the first few years.
The way the EU have handled this is cack - handed. I believe that they are so out of touch with the character of the British that they genuinely believe that by saying the talks could collapse will create a mad panic and suddenly everyone with have remorse and prevent TM getting a reasonable majority.
The problem is that they have been shown to be devious and untrustworthy while TM has risen above the fray and emerged strengthened.
I would be interested to know from those pro EU on this forum if they feel this has enhanced or reduced TM popularity.
Vastly reduced. She is now a spent force and heading for the ignominy which she so richly deserves. She is also quite personally unpleasant being the manifestion in the flesh of a peculiarly repellent stripe of ignorant bourgeois nationalism and social conservatism.
Sad response
But a revealing one. What really enrages some people is that the Referendum was the first time they have ever lost to social groups that they despise.
Indeed, Cameron, Blair, Major all comfortably represented the upper middle classes and even Thatcher their financial interests, the EU referendum was the first time the lower middle class and working class have triumphed over the upper middle class since Wilson beat Heath
Reading various threads it is becoming increasingly clear that some of our remainer friends have utterly, utterly lost the plot and actually want us to crash and burn.
Very strange
The Sun nailed them today:
Because it is more important to them to be proved “right”, to assert what they see as their intellectual and moral superiority over 17.4million Brexit voters, than it is for Britain to emerge with a decent deal and prosper thereafter.
The way the EU have handled this is cack - handed. I believe that they are so out of touch with the character of the British that they genuinely believe that by saying the talks could collapse will create a mad panic and suddenly everyone with have remorse and prevent TM getting a reasonable majority.
The problem is that they have been shown to be devious and untrustworthy while TM has risen above the fray and emerged strengthened.
I would be interested to know from those pro EU on this forum if they feel this has enhanced or reduced TM popularity.
I can only answer for myself, but so far I do not feel reassured that she knows what she is about. I feel that, based on reports about Spads and the like deserting No 10, some of her rather apparently abrupt decisions and now this EU meeting fiasco, there must be some truth in the claim that she is not all that adept at managing people and politics is all about people and compromise.
What I am certain of is that she is the only game in town. Corbyn is protester, not a politician and the rest of the parties look like a disorganised, political hotch-potch.
It reminds me of Mrs Thatcher in her early days as PM - you could love her or loathe her but there were no other options for the first few years.
I agree with your reservations about May. However, in terms of the alternative, Starmer seems to me to be exuding competence and making the best of playing a very bad hand in terms of pulling together a coherent alternative approach. He's helped neither by the Corbynites still railing against Starmer's partially successful attempts to define Labour's alternative to free movement, nor by the antics and hard line of the likes of Juncker which only hardens up sentiment here against the EU. If the EU negotiators are true to their word then we really are facing the hardest of Brexits, something that doesn't help Starmer when he argues the case that a deal can be struck.
I wonder if this year the locals might be of less use than usual, or more divergent compared to the following General Election, to rephrase?
In the election, Scotland will have the question of independence (or not) looming large. Across the whole country, shunning Corbyn will be a theme. Neither of these things play much in local politics. There's also the EU matter.
It feels like a much more important General Election than we've had for quite some time, so may well be quite different to local elections. Labour types planning to jump ship come June may want to psychologically reassert their Labour sense of identity by voting red in May.
What do the lefties who like Labour and loathe Corbyn think?
I think the local elections will be bad for Labour, but not as bad as the General Election will be.
'Mrs May was presumably serious in suggesting the opt out followed by selective opt-in approach that they used previously for the EU justice and home affairs treaty. This shows a complete misunderstanding of the situation Britain is in relative to the EU following Brexit. ie that Brexit really is Brexit. '
So the EU not allowing selective opt-out / opt-in would also apply to security & intelligence sharing?
It's not a question of the EU allowing. We're leaving the EU. Any new relationship will be as an outside party on terms that will need to be agreed. That applies to security and intelligence as well. Mrs May doesn't appear to have grasped that fact, which is a bit concerning.
That means that if and when negotiations with the EU go badly wrong, it will be easy for nationalists in Britain to blame the French and Germans, and to make an appeal for sacrifice and national solidarity
That means that if and when negotiations with the EU go badly wrong, it will be easy for nationalists in Britain to blame the French and Germans, and to make an appeal for sacrifice and national solidarity
Why did only one side leak the dinner and spin it as a 'disaster'?
I agree with your reservations about May. However, in terms of the alternative, Starmer seems to me to be exuding competence and making the best of playing a very bad hand in terms of pulling together a coherent alternative approach. He's helped neither by the Corbynites still railing against Starmer's partially successful attempts to define Labour's alternative to free movement, nor by the antics and hard line of the likes of Juncker which only hardens up sentiment here against the EU. If the EU negotiators are true to their word then we really are facing the hardest of Brexits, something that doesn't help Starmer when he argues the case that a deal can be struck.
I have not formed any opinion on Starmer simply because he can never be PM in time for Brexit
Until Labour is sorted out (if ever!) the Leader of the Opposition will be exactly that and I expect the sorting process to take years even if Corbyn was deposed today.
Mr. 43/Mr. P, so when the EU wants opt-ins/outs for its preferred option (on security) that will/must happen, but when it doesn't (for trade) it cannot?
Negotiation involves compromise. If the EU attempts to shaft us on trade then ask us to help them with defence and intelligence, I suspect they'll get quite a short and Anglo-Saxon response.
A sensible deal on the economics benefits both side, and then a security/defence agreement will come relatively easily. We'll have to wait until the three elections are done to see how things progress.
This article could have been written about yesterday's thread on PB (continued this morning). It imagines a speech the PM will eventually give...
The prime minister is seated behind her desk in Downing Street. A Union Jack is visible in the corner of the room. Mrs May tells the British people that, despite the unstinting efforts of her government, the UK and the EU have been unable to reach an agreement. She has to warn her fellow countrymen that difficult times lie ahead. There will be severe disruption to trade and travel for an extended period of time. There is likely to be a serious recession. Britain had made a democratic decision to leave the EU. But the EU has proved unwilling to accept that decision and negotiate a fair deal. Instead, it is determined to punish the UK.
Now comes the Churchillian riff. Lowering the timbre of her voice and staring straight into the camera, Mrs May says that some European politicians seem to believe that they can humiliate Britain and bend the country to their will. Clearly, they have no knowledge of the history or nature of the British people. A country that has defeated Hitler, the Kaiser, Napoleon and the Spanish Armada has no reason to fear the bureaucrats of Brussels, or the governments of Malta and Slovakia. A quick reference to Shakespeare and the “sceptred isle” and an appeal for national unity, and the speech would be over.
Stephens is an ardent europhile but at least he's guessed the psychology - which I explained, similarly, yesterday. If the EU is perceived to be bullying or attacking the UK, our reaction won't be Bremorse, or surrender, it will be a big British fuck you.
You also skip the rest of his feature, where he admits that loathing of Britain is now on the rise in Brussels - "an anti-UK rage in upper EU echelons" - European officials who openly smirk at our looming disaster. How will that rage, that smirking, go down in Britain?
It all means Diamond Brexit. I'm not sure it can be avoided. We should know very soon, the first weeks after the election. If the talks continue without further disaster, then a deal is probably do-able. But if the EU refuses to yield any ground, they will collapse very quickly. We can then prepare for the tough times ahead.
Doesn't an agreement imply the UK yielding ground as well as the EU - in other words a compromise. I can see why May doesn't want to appear willing to do so at the moment, but there will be no excuse after the GE.
Because it is more important to them to be proved “right”, to assert what they see as their intellectual and moral superiority over 17.4million Brexit voters, than it is for Britain to emerge with a decent deal and prosper thereafter.
Which is nonsense. There's a decent off the shelf deal called the EEA which many Leavers and Remainers both support.
It is May who has decided to turn Brexit into an existential struggle in hopes of putting her name to an optimum negotiated 'special' relationship between Britain and the EU, instead of allowing that relationship to evolve over time.
What really enrages some people is that the Referendum was the first time they have ever lost to social groups that they despise.
Bollocks
The people who were weeping in 1979 and cheering in 1997 were not happy in 2010 or 2015
Every change of Government produces a result where some people lose to social groups that they despise.
No. It's the endless sneering at people who live in unfashionable locations, or are elderly, or who don't have degrees. It hurts much more than merely a change of government. Traditionalist Conservatives, and working class socialists, the two main out groups of the past 25 years, joined together and won.
'Mrs May was presumably serious in suggesting the opt out followed by selective opt-in approach that they used previously for the EU justice and home affairs treaty. This shows a complete misunderstanding of the situation Britain is in relative to the EU following Brexit. ie that Brexit really is Brexit. '
So the EU not allowing selective opt-out / opt-in would also apply to security & intelligence sharing?
It's not a question of the EU allowing. We're leaving the EU. Any new relationship will be as an outside party on terms that will need to be agreed. That applies to security and intelligence as well. Mrs May doesn't appear to have grasped that fact, which is a bit concerning.
How do you have this insight to her understanding?
Why did only one side leak the dinner and spin it as a 'disaster'?
The obvious reason, as stated by everyone involved involved, that the Brexiteers don't want to acknowledge, is that they were so shocked at how out of her depth TMay is, and they are concerned that the talks will fail because the UK are completely and utterly unprepared for what needs to be done. That is why Merkel then made a speech alerting people to the impending disaster as a warning we need to get our shit together.
Why did only one side leak the dinner and spin it as a 'disaster'?
The obvious reason, as stated by everyone involved involved, that the Brexiteers don't want to acknowledge, is that they were so shocked at how out of her depth TMay is, and they are concerned that the talks will fail because the UK are completely and utterly unprepared for what needs to be done. That is why Merkel then made a speech alerting people to the impending disaster as a warning we need to get our shit together.
This article could have been written about yesterday's thread on PB (continued this morning). It imagines a speech the PM will eventually give...
The prime minister determined to punish the UK.
Now comes the Churchillian riff. Lowering the timbre of her voice and staring straight into the camera, Mrs May says that some European politicians seem to believe that they can humiliate Britain and bend the country to their will. Clearly, they have no knowledge of the history or nature of the British people. A country that has defeated Hitler, the Kaiser, Napoleon and the Spanish Armada has no reason to fear the bureaucrats of Brussels, or the governments of Malta and Slovakia. A quick reference to Shakespeare and the “sceptred isle” and an appeal for national unity, and the speech would be over.
Stephens is an ardent europhile but at least he's guessed the psychology - which I explained, similarly, yesterday. If the EU is perceived to be bullying or attacking the UK, our reaction won't be Bremorse, or surrender, it will be a big British fuck you.
You also skip the rest of his feature, where he admits that loathing of Britain is now on the rise in Brussels - "an anti-UK rage in upper EU echelons" - European officials who openly smirk at our looming disaster. How will that rage, that smirking, go down in Britain?
It all means Diamond Brexit. I'm not sure it can be avoided. We should know very soon, the first weeks after the election. If the talks continue without further disaster, then a deal is probably do-able. But if the EU refuses to yield any ground, they will collapse very quickly. We can then prepare for the tough times ahead.
That "we", of course, is well-off, right-wing Brexiteers, shielded from the affects of a cliff-edge departure, girding their inner Cod-Churchills. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, they will say to millions of people facing up to the prospect of major job losses, further cuts to public services and higher taxes. It will be our finest hour - inflicting untold harm on ourselves for perfectly avoidable reasons. But the wealthy right wing Brexiteers will be fine, so it will all be OK. Boris will get to say very rude and hilarious things about foreigners, the right wing press can pretend it's WW2. And then what?
The way the EU have handled this is cack - handed. I believe that they are so out of touch with the character of the British that they genuinely believe that by saying the talks could collapse will create a mad panic and suddenly everyone with have remorse and prevent TM getting a reasonable majority.
The problem is that they have been shown to be devious and untrustworthy while TM has risen above the fray and emerged strengthened.
I would be interested to know from those pro EU on this forum if they feel this has enhanced or reduced TM popularity.
I can only answer for myself, but so far I do not feel reassured that she knows what she is about. I feel that, based on reports about Spads and the like deserting No 10, some of her rather apparently abrupt decisions and now this EU meeting fiasco, there must be some truth in the claim that she is not all that adept at managing people and politics is all about people and compromise.
What I am certain of is that she is the only game in town. Corbyn is protester, not a politician and the rest of the parties look like a disorganised, political hotch-potch.
It reminds me of Mrs Thatcher in her early days as PM - you could love her or loathe her but there were no other options for the first few years.
This article could have been written about yesterday's thread on PB (continued this morning). It imagines a speech the PM will eventually give...
The prime minister is seated behind her desk in Downing Street. A Union Jack is visible in the corner of the room. Mrs May tells the British people that, despite the unstinting efforts of her government, the UK and the EU have been unable to reach an agreement. She has to warn her fellow countrymen that difficult times lie ahead. There will be severe disruption to trade and travel for an extended period of time. There is likely to be a serious recession. Britain had made a democratic decision to leave the EU. But the EU has proved unwilling to accept that decision and negotiate a fair deal. Instead, it is determined to punish the UK.
Now comes the Churchillian riff. Lowering the timbre of her voice and staring straight into the camera, Mrs May says that some European politicians seem to believe that they can humiliate Britain and bend the country to their will. Clearly, they have no knowledge of the history or nature of the British people. A country that has defeated Hitler, the Kaiser, Napoleon and the Spanish Armada has no reason to fear the bureaucrats of Brussels, or the governments of Malta and Slovakia. A quick reference to Shakespeare and the “sceptred isle” and an appeal for national unity, and the speech would be over.
Stephens is an ardent europhile but at least he's guessed the psychology - which I explained, similarly, yesterday. If the EU is perceived to be bullying or attacking the UK, our reaction won't be Bremorse, or surrender, it will be a big British fuck you.
You also skip the rest of his feature, where he admits that loathing of Britain is now on the rise in Brussels - "an anti-UK rage in upper EU echelons" - European officials who openly smirk at our looming disaster. How will that rage, that smirking, go down in Britain?
It all means Diamond Brexit. I'm not sure it can be avoided. We should know very soon, the first weeks after the election. If the talks continue without further disaster, then a deal is probably do-able. But if the EU refuses to yield any ground, they will collapse very quickly. We can then prepare for the tough times ahead.
If there is no flexibility on either side, then there is no deal.
If they stick at a 60 billion divorce bill prior to any other discussions and we stick to 0 billion and concurrent discussions, then the talks are short.
That should save a few billions of admin costs and civil service payments and consultancy fees!
Mr. 43/Mr. P, so when the EU wants opt-ins/outs for its preferred option (on security) that will/must happen, but when it doesn't (for trade) it cannot?
The EU wrote a security treaty that said in it you can opt in or out.
That means any signatory to that treaty can opt in or out.
There is no opt in or out clause in our membership of the EU.
Different documents, different clauses, different outcomes.
If you sign a mortgage on your house, it doesn't allow you to buy a boat.
This is not complicated stuff, but the level of delusion shown demonstrates how badly the negotiations are going to go.
This article could have been written about yesterday's thread on PB (continued this morning). It imagines a speech the PM will eventually give...
The prime minister is seated behind her desk in Downing Street. A Union Jack is visible in the corner of the room. Mrs May tells the British people that, despite the unstinting efforts of her government, the UK and the EU have been unable to reach an agreement. She has to warn her fellow countrymen that difficult times lie ahead. There will be severe disruption to trade and travel for an extended period of time. There is likely to be a serious recession. Britain had made a democratic decision to leave the EU. But the EU has proved unwilling to accept that decision and negotiate a fair deal. Instead, it is determined to punish the UK.
e Churchillian riff. Lowering the timbre of her voice and staring straight into the camera, Mrs May says that some European politicians seem to believe that they can humiliate Britain and bend the country to their will. Clearly, they have no knowledge of the history or nature of the British people. A country that has defeated Hitler, the Kaiser, Napoleon and the Spanish Armada has no reason to fear the bureaucrats of Brussels, or the governments of Malta and Slovakia. A quick reference to Shakespeare and the “sceptred isle” and an appeal for national unity, and the speech would be over.
Stephens is an ardent europhile but at least he's guessed the psychology - which I explained, similarly, yesterday. If the EU is perceived to be bullying or attacking the UK, our reaction won't be Bremorse, or surrender, it will be a big British fuck you.
You also skip the rest of his feature, where he admits that loathing of Britain is now on the rise in Brussels - "an anti-UK rage in upper EU echelons" - European officials who openly smirk at our looming disaster. How will that rage, that smirking, go down in Britain?
It all means Diamond Brexit. I'm not sure it can be avoided. We should know very soon, the first weeks after the election. If the talks continue without further disaster, then a deal is probably do-able. But if the EU refuses to yield any ground, they will collapse very quickly. We can then prepare for the tough times ahead.
Also:
The EU, which has been troubled by divisions over everything from the euro to refugees, is currently enjoying the unusual unity of purpose that Brexit has produced among the other 27 member states. The British hope that this unity will crack, as the negotiations become more difficult. But it is just as likely that the EU will find that confrontation with Britain continues to serve as a useful rallying point for an otherwise divided organisation — and as a focus for the anger at everything else that is going wrong inside the Union.
Because it is more important to them to be proved “right”, to assert what they see as their intellectual and moral superiority over 17.4million Brexit voters, than it is for Britain to emerge with a decent deal and prosper thereafter.
Which is nonsense. There's a decent off the shelf deal called the EEA which many Leavers and Remainers both support.
It is May who has decided to turn Brexit into an existential struggle in hopes of putting her name to an optimum negotiated 'special' relationship between Britain and the EU, instead of allowing that relationship to evolve over time.
It was controlling immigration which drove the lower middle class and working class Leave vote, EEA was favoured by posh Leavers
The way the EU have handled this is cack - handed. I believe that they are so out of touch with the character of the British that they genuinely believe that by saying the talks could collapse will create a mad panic and suddenly everyone with have remorse and prevent TM getting a reasonable majority.
The problem is that they have been shown to be devious and untrustworthy while TM has risen above the fray and emerged strengthened.
I would be interested to know from those pro EU on this forum if they feel this has enhanced or reduced TM popularity.
My view FWIW is that this is the inevitable backlash against a false prospectus. If you vote for something that will never happen, do you blame yourselves for getting it wrong or do you blame third parties for not giving you what you think is your right? It's human nature.
This article could have been written about yesterday's thread on PB (continued this morning). It imagines a speech the PM will eventually give...
The prime minister determined to punish the UK.
Now comes the Churchillian riff. Lowering the timbre of her voice and staring straight into the camera, Mrs May says that some European politicians seem to believe that they can humiliate Britain and bend the country to their will. Clearly, they have no knowledge of the history or nature of the British people. A country that has defeated Hitler, the Kaiser, Napoleon and the Spanish Armada has no reason to fear the bureaucrats of Brussels, or the governments of Malta and Slovakia. A quick reference to Shakespeare and the “sceptred isle” and an appeal for national unity, and the speech would be over.
Stephens is an ardent europhile but at least he's guessed the psychology - which I explained, similarly, yesterday. If the EU is perceived to be bullying or attacking the UK, our reaction won't be Bremorse, or surrender, it will be a big British fuck you.
You also skip the rest of his feature, where he admits that loathing of Britain is now on the rise in Brussels - "an anti-UK rage in upper EU echelons" - European officials who openly smirk at our looming disaster. How will that rage, that smirking, go down in Britain?
It all means Diamond Brexit. I'm not sure it can be avoided. We should know very soon, the first weeks after the election. If the talks continue without further disaster, then a deal is probably do-able. But if the EU refuses to yield any ground, they will collapse very quickly. We can then prepare for the tough times ahead.
That "we", of course, is well-off, right-wing Brexiteers, shielded from the affects of a cliff-edge departure, girding their inner Cod-Churchills. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, they will say to millions of people facing up to the prospect of major job losses, further cuts to public services and higher taxes. It will be our finest hour - inflicting untold harm on ourselves for perfectly avoidable reasons. But the wealthy right wing Brexiteers will be fine, so it will all be OK. Boris will get to say very rude and hilarious things about foreigners, the right wing press can pretend it's WW2. And then what?
You use this odd phrase "cod-Churchill" which I've not heard anyone else use so I can't see any context.
Reading various threads it is becoming increasingly clear that some of our remainer friends have utterly, utterly lost the plot and actually want us to crash and burn.
Very strange
Thinking something willl happen is not the same as wanting it to happen. It's pretty obvious really.
What really enrages some people is that the Referendum was the first time they have ever lost to social groups that they despise.
Bollocks
The people who were weeping in 1979 and cheering in 1997 were not happy in 2010 or 2015
Every change of Government produces a result where some people lose to social groups that they despise.
No, generally recent elections have seen the upper middle class win, even under Blair if you combine Labour and LD support. The 2017 referendum was the first time blue collar workers triumphed over upper middle class voters since Harold Wilson beat Ted Heath indeed I would suggest more Wilson voters would have voted Leave than Heath voters, Wilson was always more Eurosceptic than the Europhiles Heath and Thorpe
Interestingly, it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently. Nobody at all mentioned this during the referendum. Except the Remain side. Which was accused of fear-mongering.
Interestingly, it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently. Nobody at all mentioned this during the referendum. Except the Remain side. Which was accused of fear-mongering.
What are the UK proposals on citizens' rights. I've not actually seen them.
Still no leaflets for the locals from 2 of the parties standing for me. So with labour not deserving my vote while led by Corbyn and McDonnell, it looks like the lds, sigh. Three separate leaflet drops, at least they're trying.
the LDs are very trying.
Up here in Sunny Bishop Auckland (tight marginal according to PB/ Baxter etc) I have received one leaflet in the post (from Labour). As usual the number of references to Corbyn = 0.
playing on Brexit "Most people round here voted for Brexit, and in Parliament I voted to start the Brexit negotiations."
"Keep free bus passes, winter fuel allowance"
I must admit that "Keep the A+E in Darlington..." sounds like an own goal - there was quite a lot of resentment when the local hospital (Bishop Auckland) was downgraded to Urgent Care. As you can imagine people up in the Dales were not happy with the prospect of an extra 20 minute delay to A+E - not to mention that the usual joke about Darlington Hospital is that you are more likely to come out feet first.
Interestingly, it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently. Nobody at all mentioned this during the referendum. Except the Remain side. Which was accused of fear-mongering.
Could you link to the proposals please? It'd be very useful to see what's being suggested.
What really enrages some people is that the Referendum was the first time they have ever lost to social groups that they despise.
Bollocks
The people who were weeping in 1979 and cheering in 1997 were not happy in 2010 or 2015
Every change of Government produces a result where some people lose to social groups that they despise.
No, generally recent elections have seen the upper middle class win, even under Blair if you combine Labour and LD support. The 2017 referendum was the first time blue collar workers triumphed over upper middle class voters since Harold Wilson beat Ted Heath indeed I would suggest more Wilson voters would have voted Leave than Heath voters, Wilson was always more Eurosceptic than the Europhile Heath
I campaigned in the 1975 referendu and I suspect you are right, although the margin of victory was such that it was unlikely that any social class was heavily against.
Even the Daily Mail was in favour. Can’t recall what the Express and Sun thought, although since it was a Tory idea (Heath’s) no doubt they were in favour.
Interestingly, it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently. Nobody at all mentioned this during the referendum. Except the Remain side. Which was accused of fear-mongering.
Could you link to the proposals please? It'd be very useful to see what's being suggested.
No. It's the endless sneering at people who live in unfashionable locations, or are elderly, or who don't have degrees. It hurts much more than merely a change of government. Traditionalist Conservatives, and working class socialists, the two main out groups of the past 25 years, joined together and won.
There's no place for Thatcherite Hayekian liberals in the modern Tory party...
It's interesting that you explicitly link Brexit with socialism. Not many on the right are honest enough to do so.
I simply don't understand this obsession with deals - particularly from Brexiters who were so keen to be shot of the EU. It is hard to see how there can be an agreement on a post-EU arrangement inside two years. And the EU Parliament would surely veto anything that was good for the UK. Here's Lord Lawson, perhaps the most sensible voice on the Brexit side:
Mr @JosiasJessop, just catching up, what an awesome SpaceX video from last night, thanks for posting.
I think that's the first time they've captured the whole first stage flight from the ground, would love to see the size of the lens on the tracking camera that could video something 160km up!
The presenter on Radio 5 has just said the fact that the EU seem to be persuing their own interests will harden many in Britain's resolve that they've made the right decision even those who were previous Remainers.
Depressing.
The last week is what has convinced me neither side wants a deal, they want no deal but which they can blame on the other. The leaks make no sense otherwise.
Still no leaflets for the locals from 2 of the parties standing for me. So with labour not deserving my vote while led by Corbyn and McDonnell, it looks like the lds, sigh. Three separate leaflet drops, at least they're trying.
the LDs are very trying.
Up here in Sunny Bishop Auckland (tight marginal according to PB/ Baxter etc) I have received one leaflet in the post (from Labour). As usual the number of references to Corbyn = 0.
playing on Brexit "Most people round here voted for Brexit, and in Parliament I voted to start the Brexit negotiations."
"Keep free bus passes, winter fuel allowance"
I must admit that "Keep the A+E in Darlington..." sounds like an own goal - there was quite a lot of resentment when the local hospital (Bishop Auckland) was downgraded to Urgent Care. As you can imagine people up in the Dales were not happy with the prospect of an extra 20 minute delay to A+E - not to mention that the usual joke about Darlington Hospital is that you are more likely to come out feet first.
you missed the classic argument from Darlington Council that we need to keep the A&E in Darlington due to the traffic issues within Darlo....
Given that the argument is to keep the A&E is Darlington rather than moving to North Tees it didn't go down well..
This article could have been written about yesterday's thread on PB (continued this morning). It imagines a speech the PM will eventually give...
The prime minister determined to punish the UK.
Now comes theNapoleon and the Spanish Armada has no reason to fear the bureaucrats of Brussels, or the governments of Malta and Slovakia. A quick reference to Shakespeare and the “sceptred isle” and an appeal for national unity, and the speech would be over.
Stephens isvery quickly. We can then prepare for the tough times ahead.
That "we", of course, is well-off, right-wing Brexiteers, shielded from the affects of a cliff-edge departure, girding their inner Cod-Churchills. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, they will say to millions of people facing up to the prospect of major job losses, further cuts to public services and higher taxes. It will be our finest hour - inflicting untold harm on ourselves for perfectly avoidable reasons. But the wealthy right wing Brexiteers will be fine, so it will all be OK. Boris will get to say very rude and hilarious things about foreigners, the right wing press can pretend it's WW2. And then what?
Dude, I'm not welcoming this. I was the softest of Brexiteers, I wanted to vote Remain after a good Cameron deal, in the absence of that I wanted EEA/EFTA leave. However the behaviour of the EU since the vote has merely convinced me that the decision to quit was right. A club that hates you for leaving, and wants to hurt you for doing so, is not a happy, voluntary association of nations, its closer to a mafia.
Diamond Brexit fills me with dread. I'm not so rich I can afford to laugh off any risk. My main asset is London property. Etc.
I would dearly like a good, soft Brexit, but the EU is not offering that. It's making insane demands. EU law must prevail in the UK. EU citizens here must have MORE rights than UK citizens. How can we possibly accept that? I think the EU wants the Toughest and Hardest Brexit, to discourage others, and given that they have the whip hand - as you so often tell us - that's what will happen.
The UK is proposing that EU citizens currently living here have less rights than they have now. That is a proposal that will also apply to UK citizens living abroad, of course. It has made an opening proposal on payments, our response is that we will pay zero. It does not take a huge amount of imagination to see that there is room for manoeuvre. Look at the position papers - that's where the real information lies. The rest is positioning.
What really enrages some people is that the Referendum was the first time they have ever lost to social groups that they despise.
Bollocks
The people who were weeping in 1979 and cheering in 1997 were not happy in 2010 or 2015
Every change of Government produces a result where some people lose to social groups that they despise.
No, generally recent elections have seen the upper middle class win, even under Blair if you combine Labour and LD support. The 2017 referendum was the first time blue collar workers triumphed over upper middle class voters since Harold Wilson beat Ted Heath indeed I would suggest more Wilson voters would have voted Leave than Heath voters, Wilson was always more Eurosceptic than the Europhile Heath
I campaigned in the 1975 referendu and I suspect you are right, although the margin of victory was such that it was unlikely that any social class was heavily against.
Even the Daily Mail was in favour. Can’t recall what the Express and Sun thought, although since it was a Tory idea (Heath’s) no doubt they were in favour.
The main antis were the likes of Powell and Benn ie hard right and hard left and the working class industrial areas were notably less enthusiastic about joining the EEC than more prosperous areas even then
This article could have been written about yesterday's thread on PB (continued this morning). It imagines a speech the PM will eventually give...
The prime minister determined to punish the UK.
Now comes the Churchillian riff. Napoleon and the Spanish Armada has no reason to fear the bureaucrats of Brussels, or the governments of Malta and Slovakia. A quick reference to Shakespeare and the “sceptred isle” and an appeal for national unity, and the speech would be over.
Stephens is an ardent europhile but at least he's guessed the psychology - which I explained, similarly, yesterday. If the EU is perceived to be bullying or attacking the UK, our reaction won't be Bremorse, or surrender, it will be a big British fuck you.
You also skip the rest of his feature, where he admits that loathing of Britain is now on the rise in Brussels - "an anti-UK rage in upper EU echelons" - European officials who openly smirk at our looming disaster. How will that rage, that smirking, go down in Britain?
It all means Diamond Brexit. I'm not sure it can be avoided. We should know very soon, the first weeks after the election. If the talks continue without further disaster, then a deal is probably do-able. But if the EU refuses to yield any ground, they will collapse very quickly. We can then prepare for the tough times ahead.
That "we", of course, is well-off, right-wing Brexiteers, shielded from the affects of a cliff-edge departure, girding their inner Cod-Churchills. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, they will say to millions of people facing up to the prospect of major job losses, further cuts to public services and higher taxes. It will be our finest hour - inflicting untold harm on ourselves for perfectly avoidable reasons. But the wealthy right wing Brexiteers will be fine, so it will all be OK. Boris will get to say very rude and hilarious things about foreigners, the right wing press can pretend it's WW2. And then what?
But what about wealthy Remainers who loathe this Churchillian nonsense? Many now fear that this wont just be the upheaval of all upheavals but it will be a serious disaster both economically and socially. In my trade the signs are already obvious.
The fact that the poorest will have less insulation in the coming downturn is always the way. But by the same token it's always the richest who build the barricades and I still have hope that when the vomit really hits the fan parliament realises that it has the power to override the referendum and it does just that.
it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently.
Mr @JosiasJessop, just catching up, what an awesome SpaceX video from last night, thanks for posting.
I think that's the first time they've captured the whole first stage flight from the ground, would love to see the size of the lens on the tracking camera that could video something 160km up!
People have been asking for articles on NASA's tracking cameras. It must be quite a spectacular setup.
I still can't get over the first stage rotating to return to the launch site. I just watch it and think: "the aerodynamic forces'll just break it up."
The UK is proposing that EU citizens currently living here have less rights than they have now. That is a proposal that will also apply to UK citizens living abroad, of course. It has made an opening proposal on payments, our response is that we will pay zero. It does not take a huge amount of imagination to see that there is room for manoeuvre. Look at the position papers - that's where the real information lies. The rest is positioning.
What rights would they lose? Are those the same rights that are going to be lost be Britons living in the UK, such as the right to vote for an MEP?
This article could have been written about yesterday's thread on PB (continued this morning). It imagines a speech the PM will eventually give...
The prime minister determined to punish the UK.
Now comes theNapoleon and the Spanish Armada has no reason to fear the bureaucrats of Brussels, or the governments of Malta and Slovakia. A quick reference to Shakespeare and the “sceptred isle” and an appeal for national unity, and the speech would be over.
Stephens isvery quickly. We can then prepare for the tough times ahead.
That "we", of course, is well-off, right-wing Brexiteers, shielded from the affects of a cliff-edge departure, girding their inner Cod-Churchills. We will fight them on the beaches, we will never surrender, they will say to millions of people facing up to the prospect of major job losses, further cuts to public services and higher taxes. It will be our finest hour - inflicting untold harm on ourselves for perfectly avoidable reasons. But the wealthy right wing Brexiteers will be fine, so it will all be OK. Boris will get to say very rude and hilarious things about foreigners, the right wing press can pretend it's WW2. And then what?
Dude, I'm not welcoming this. I was the softest of Brexiteers, I wanted to vote Remain after a good Cameron deal, in the absence of that I wanted EEA/EFTA leave. However the behaviour of the EU since the vote has merely convinced me that the decision to quit was right. A club that hates you for leaving, and wants to hurt you for doing so, is not a happy, voluntary association of nations, its closer to a mafia.
Diamond Brexit fills me with dread. I'm not so rich I can afford to laugh off any risk. My main asset is London property. Etc.
I would dearly like a good, soft Brexit, but the EU is not offering that. It's making insane demands. EU law must prevail in the UK. EU citizens here must have MORE rights than UK citizens. How can we possibly accept that? I think the EU wants the Toughest and Hardest Brexit, to discourage others, and given that they have the whip hand - as you so often tell us - that's what will happen.
The UK is proposing that EU citizens currently living here have less rights than they have now.
Link to proposals please - and discussion of which rights EU citizens would lose would be helpful.
Are you arguing that the UK will not be a 'Third Country' - which seems to be the EU's mantra?
Mr @JosiasJessop, just catching up, what an awesome SpaceX video from last night, thanks for posting.
I think that's the first time they've captured the whole first stage flight from the ground, would love to see the size of the lens on the tracking camera that could video something 160km up!
People have been asking for articles on NASA's tracking cameras. It must be quite a spectacular setup.
I still can't get over the first stage rotating to return to the launch site. I just watch it and think: "the aerodynamic forces'll just break it up."
Except it's above the atmosphere.
Most interesting thing to me was the continuous speed readout, as it went through the re-entry and landing burns.
Mr @JosiasJessop, just catching up, what an awesome SpaceX video from last night, thanks for posting.
I think that's the first time they've captured the whole first stage flight from the ground, would love to see the size of the lens on the tracking camera that could video something 160km up!
People have been asking for articles on NASA's tracking cameras. It must be quite a spectacular setup.
I still can't get over the first stage rotating to return to the launch site. I just watch it and think: "the aerodynamic forces'll just break it up."
Except it's above the atmosphere.
I watched it thinking 'that's incredible' - the sort of thing you'd expect to see in science fiction....
The UK is proposing that EU citizens currently living here have less rights than they have now. That is a proposal that will also apply to UK citizens living abroad, of course. It has made an opening proposal on payments, our response is that we will pay zero. It does not take a huge amount of imagination to see that there is room for manoeuvre. Look at the position papers - that's where the real information lies. The rest is positioning.
What rights would they lose? Are those the same rights that are going to be lost be Britons living in the UK, such as the right to vote for an MEP?
Mr @JosiasJessop, just catching up, what an awesome SpaceX video from last night, thanks for posting.
I think that's the first time they've captured the whole first stage flight from the ground, would love to see the size of the lens on the tracking camera that could video something 160km up!
I'd like to know too. An amazing piece of camerawork.
The Falcon Heavy is starting to come together btw (Pictures present of an upright core at McGregor)- And I think they'll get a (Smaller than originally planned) ITS out to Mars by the mid 2030s, SLS will still be a "decade away" at that point.
With SpaceX, you know it'll happen (And be delayed by 5 - 10 years), with NASA those delays and changes are on a whole another timescale. The Apollo - Shuttle gap is now shorter than the Shuttle ->{Next HSF NASA rocket} !
The UK is proposing that EU citizens currently living here have less rights than they have now. That is a proposal that will also apply to UK citizens living abroad, of course. It has made an opening proposal on payments, our response is that we will pay zero. It does not take a huge amount of imagination to see that there is room for manoeuvre. Look at the position papers - that's where the real information lies. The rest is positioning.
What rights would they lose? Are those the same rights that are going to be lost be Britons living in the UK, such as the right to vote for an MEP?
I'm unsure which rights they would be losing that ordinary Brits would be keeping? Unless they are arguing that EU citizens should somehow have more rights, which would be absurd.
Apologies if already mentioned but Richard Osman of BBC's "Pointless" fame is tweeting about how interesting he found the PB article about possible election expenses charges.
As I live in a near one-party state I am going to vote for any independent who is standing, and if not I might vote Lib Dem. They do seem to care about local issues so, which is quite touching.
And there's little risk that Hertfordshire County Council Lib Dems strength will stop Brexit.
Mr @JosiasJessop, just catching up, what an awesome SpaceX video from last night, thanks for posting.
I think that's the first time they've captured the whole first stage flight from the ground, would love to see the size of the lens on the tracking camera that could video something 160km up!
People have been asking for articles on NASA's tracking cameras. It must be quite a spectacular setup.
I still can't get over the first stage rotating to return to the launch site. I just watch it and think: "the aerodynamic forces'll just break it up."
Except it's above the atmosphere.
Most interesting thing to me was the continuous speed readout, as it went through the re-entry and landing burns.
I'm surprised how much the terminal velocity decreases as it enters the atmosphere with no rocket burn. If you watched the launch before this one, you can see the grid fins on the side of the rocket actually burning from the heat.
The UK is proposing that EU citizens currently living here have less rights than they have now. That is a proposal that will also apply to UK citizens living abroad, of course. It has made an opening proposal on payments, our response is that we will pay zero. It does not take a huge amount of imagination to see that there is room for manoeuvre. Look at the position papers - that's where the real information lies. The rest is positioning.
What rights would they lose? Are those the same rights that are going to be lost be Britons living in the UK, such as the right to vote for an MEP?
Mr @JosiasJessop, just catching up, what an awesome SpaceX video from last night, thanks for posting.
I think that's the first time they've captured the whole first stage flight from the ground, would love to see the size of the lens on the tracking camera that could video something 160km up!
I'd like to know too. An amazing piece of camerawork.
The Falcon Heavy is starting to come together btw (Pictures present of an upright core at McGregor)- And I think they'll get a (Smaller than originally planned) ITS out to Mars by the mid 2030s, SLS will still be a "decade away" at that point.
With SpaceX, you know it'll happen (And be delayed by 5 - 10 years), with NASA those delays and changes are on a whole another timescale. The Apollo - Shuttle gap is now shorter than the Shuttle ->{Next HSF NASA rocket} !
Though I don't like using Guido's character assassinations that is perhaps the funniest three minute political clip I've seen. It's a pity it wasn't scripted. It could have made the creator money for years to come.
Mr @JosiasJessop, just catching up, what an awesome SpaceX video from last night, thanks for posting.
I think that's the first time they've captured the whole first stage flight from the ground, would love to see the size of the lens on the tracking camera that could video something 160km up!
I'd like to know too. An amazing piece of camerawork.
The Falcon Heavy is starting to come together btw (Pictures present of an upright core at McGregor)- And I think they'll get a (Smaller than originally planned) ITS out to Mars by the mid 2030s, SLS will still be a "decade away" at that point.
With SpaceX, you know it'll happen (And be delayed by 5 - 10 years), with NASA those delays and changes are on a whole another timescale. The Apollo - Shuttle gap is now shorter than the Shuttle ->{Next HSF NASA rocket} !
The Falcon 9 Heavy is still six months away from flight.
Musk says he'll give an update about the ITS scheme in a few weeks. Since the massive carbon fibre tank they made went bang (I presume an unplanned failure, as they wouldn't want to destroy it on the second or third test) I think they'll move to a more 'traditional' approach.
Personally, I'd haul a water-rich asteroid towards a lagrange point and use it to create a hydrogen/oxygen fuel farm. Expensive in the long run,, but will save a massive amount of launches in the medium and long term. NASA would also be very interested, as would ULA with their ACES upper stage.
Comments
http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/diane-abbotts-agonising-interview-over-policy-cost/
I must say I find it disappointing.
Interesting thread header from Mr Smithson. Shame that it's been somewhat ignored.
'Mrs May was presumably serious in suggesting the opt out followed by selective opt-in approach that they used previously for the EU justice and home affairs treaty. This shows a complete misunderstanding of the situation Britain is in relative to the EU following Brexit. ie that Brexit really is Brexit. '
So the EU not allowing selective opt-out / opt-in would also apply to security & intelligence sharing?
What I am certain of is that she is the only game in town. Corbyn is protester, not a politician and the rest of the parties look like a disorganised, political hotch-potch.
It reminds me of Mrs Thatcher in her early days as PM - you could love her or loathe her but there were no other options for the first few years.
we'll know on June 9th.
I wonder if this year the locals might be of less use than usual, or more divergent compared to the following General Election, to rephrase?
In the election, Scotland will have the question of independence (or not) looming large. Across the whole country, shunning Corbyn will be a theme. Neither of these things play much in local politics. There's also the EU matter.
It feels like a much more important General Election than we've had for quite some time, so may well be quite different to local elections. Labour types planning to jump ship come June may want to psychologically reassert their Labour sense of identity by voting red in May.
What do the lefties who like Labour and loathe Corbyn think?
Very strange
Good day all.
At least others admit what they are doing when they are insulting others. So disappointing.
https://www.ft.com/content/8f169d1e-2bfd-11e7-bc4b-5528796fe35c
The entire thread yesterday, for example...
"We are too big to be treated like that"
"We are their bankers, we have the whip hand"
"We fund their crazy projects"
"We do not need them... we will trade with the world"
"They will give us what we want or we will stop buying their cars"
etc. etc. etc. ad nasuem....
I hold a different opinion, that's all. The basis of democracy is that men can hear the same arguments, see the same evidence, and reach differing but equally valid conclusions.
Do you believe it's illegitimate to want to leave the EU, or are you censuring my conduct/speech? If the latter, an example of how I've behaved poorly would be welcome.
Selective opt-out / opt-in was explicitly written into the security & intelligence sharing treaty.
Not so, everything else
Except when the EU wants to do it, then that's a completely different matter.....
The people who were weeping in 1979 and cheering in 1997 were not happy in 2010 or 2015
Every change of Government produces a result where some people lose to social groups that they despise.
The Sun nailed them today:
Because it is more important to them to be proved “right”, to assert what they see as their intellectual and moral superiority over 17.4million Brexit voters, than it is for Britain to emerge with a decent deal and prosper thereafter.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3458648/jean-claude-junckers-leak-of-his-talk-with-theresa-may-is-treacherous-and-one-sided/
And when it's not explicitly there, it's not available.
Is it any wonder we are headed for disaster...
That means that if and when negotiations with the EU go badly wrong, it will be easy for nationalists in Britain to blame the French and Germans, and to make an appeal for sacrifice and national solidarity
Until Labour is sorted out (if ever!) the Leader of the Opposition will be exactly that and I expect the sorting process to take years even if Corbyn was deposed today.
Anyway, life beckons.... c u later people
Negotiation involves compromise. If the EU attempts to shaft us on trade then ask us to help them with defence and intelligence, I suspect they'll get quite a short and Anglo-Saxon response.
A sensible deal on the economics benefits both side, and then a security/defence agreement will come relatively easily. We'll have to wait until the three elections are done to see how things progress.
It is May who has decided to turn Brexit into an existential struggle in hopes of putting her name to an optimum negotiated 'special' relationship between Britain and the EU, instead of allowing that relationship to evolve over time.
https://order-order.com/2017/05/02/diane-abbott-police-numbers-car-crash/
Fit for government my arse
If they stick at a 60 billion divorce bill prior to any other discussions and we stick to 0 billion and concurrent discussions, then the talks are short.
That should save a few billions of admin costs and civil service payments and consultancy fees!
That means any signatory to that treaty can opt in or out.
There is no opt in or out clause in our membership of the EU.
Different documents, different clauses, different outcomes.
If you sign a mortgage on your house, it doesn't allow you to buy a boat.
This is not complicated stuff, but the level of delusion shown demonstrates how badly the negotiations are going to go.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/859321084008640512
The EU, which has been troubled by divisions over everything from the euro to refugees, is currently enjoying the unusual unity of purpose that Brexit has produced among the other 27 member states. The British hope that this unity will crack, as the negotiations become more difficult. But it is just as likely that the EU will find that confrontation with Britain continues to serve as a useful rallying point for an otherwise divided organisation — and as a focus for the anger at everything else that is going wrong inside the Union.
What does it mean, please?
https://twitter.com/seanjonesqc/status/859316989185142785
I'll get my coat....
Up here in Sunny Bishop Auckland (tight marginal according to PB/ Baxter etc) I have received one leaflet in the post (from Labour). As usual the number of references to Corbyn = 0.
playing on Brexit "Most people round here voted for Brexit, and in Parliament I voted to start the Brexit negotiations."
"Keep free bus passes, winter fuel allowance"
I must admit that "Keep the A+E in Darlington..." sounds like an own goal - there was quite a lot of resentment when the local hospital (Bishop Auckland) was downgraded to Urgent Care. As you can imagine people up in the Dales were not happy with the prospect of an extra 20 minute delay to A+E - not to mention that the usual joke about Darlington Hospital is that you are more likely to come out feet first.
https://twitter.com/Conservatives/status/859111155926740993
Even the Daily Mail was in favour. Can’t recall what the Express and Sun thought, although since it was a Tory idea (Heath’s) no doubt they were in favour.
So I guess he's saying they're girding their inner fake Churchills. Which certainly seems to sum up some of the comments on here ...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11698875/Emigration-Why-British-expats-have-nothing-to-fear-from-Brexit.html
It's interesting that you explicitly link Brexit with socialism. Not many on the right are honest enough to do so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MujK5ZYBnnU
I think that's the first time they've captured the whole first stage flight from the ground, would love to see the size of the lens on the tracking camera that could video something 160km up!
Given that the argument is to keep the A&E is Darlington rather than moving to North Tees it didn't go down well..
That is the least coherent interview I have ever heard. How is she a prominent politician? The biggest blagger in th HofC
The fact that the poorest will have less insulation in the coming downturn is always the way. But by the same token it's always the richest who build the barricades and I still have hope that when the vomit really hits the fan parliament realises that it has the power to override the referendum and it does just that.
You wrote:
it does seem as if the UK government is prepared to see British citizens in the EU sold down the river. Its proposals on citizens' rights would deny them many of the ones that they enjoy currently.
Link to proposals please?
I still can't get over the first stage rotating to return to the launch site. I just watch it and think: "the aerodynamic forces'll just break it up."
Except it's above the atmosphere.
I'm sorry you didn't understand what I wrote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzQpkQ1etdA#t=14m
(Because rocket launches are always brilliant, and this is the mos brilliant one for some time).
Are you arguing that the UK will not be a 'Third Country' - which seems to be the EU's mantra?
https://twitter.com/StGeorgeOfEU/status/859077646164140034/photo/1
The Falcon Heavy is starting to come together btw (Pictures present of an upright core at McGregor)- And I think they'll get a (Smaller than originally planned) ITS out to Mars by the mid 2030s, SLS will still be a "decade away" at that point.
With SpaceX, you know it'll happen (And be delayed by 5 - 10 years), with NASA those delays and changes are on a whole another timescale. The Apollo - Shuttle gap is now shorter than the Shuttle ->{Next HSF NASA rocket} !
As I live in a near one-party state I am going to vote for any independent who is standing, and if not I might vote Lib Dem. They do seem to care about local issues so, which is quite touching.
And there's little risk that Hertfordshire County Council Lib Dems strength will stop Brexit.
Still voting Tory in the GE.
https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/167722main_LaunchImagery06.pdf
Musk says he'll give an update about the ITS scheme in a few weeks. Since the massive carbon fibre tank they made went bang (I presume an unplanned failure, as they wouldn't want to destroy it on the second or third test) I think they'll move to a more 'traditional' approach.
Personally, I'd haul a water-rich asteroid towards a lagrange point and use it to create a hydrogen/oxygen fuel farm. Expensive in the long run,, but will save a massive amount of launches in the medium and long term. NASA would also be very interested, as would ULA with their ACES upper stage.