politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The opening IndyRef2 odds make it odds-on that it’ll take plac
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Corbyn has said that Labour will oppose independence. N.B. Not oppose holding a referendum.0
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The vast majority of Scottish exports go to the rest of the UK only a minority of UK exports go to the EU so Scexit would be even tougher for Scotland than the Brexit you voted for will be for the UK, especially with the inevitable hard borderRochdalePioneers said:I'm not convinced by suggestions of delay to 2021. The reason for a 2nd referendum is Brexit - it will have to be held before Brexit to have enough impact. The SNP case will be simple:
1. The UK will be run by the Tories for a generation
2. The Tories don't have the UK's best interests in mind never mind Scotland
3. Brexit shows self-determination wins over all other factors. You really can change your future in a way many people didn't believe in 2014
4. Yes Scotland trades most with the rest of the UK. But that ship will sink with hard Brexit, so reforge the auld alliance and switch the focus back to Europe
5. An independent Scotland will remain part of the single market (she WILL get that offered by Brussels). And there's no question about being thrown out of the British Isles single market as we already have non-UK members in it (Eire, IOM, CI)
6. There's no risk-free status quo to fall back on now. Independence - the single market is more of the status quo than thrown on the mercy of WTO tariffs.
And so timings. Scotland will declare the referendum for next autumn and start its discussions with Brussels now. Westminster will say no, Scotland will go ahead with the vote anyway (or, unless Maybe doesn't want to present that particular gift to the leave case, it will happen next autumn without dispute).
Either way, the offer will be an independent Scotland in Europe, or a Scotland dragged to the bottom of the Atlantic by the sinking Brexit Britain. And if I had a vote, I'd vote to leave. And it puts SLAB in a hell of a position. Campaign to remain and give succour to both Corbyn and the Tories. Or campaign to leave and risk giving it to the SNP.
Were I Dugdale the appealing option surely is to provide the opposition to the SNP in an independent Scotland offering a Labour version of independence rather than eternal SNP rule.0 -
And the pressures were largely self-generated by a British political class that never understood how to communicate the realities of EU membership to the electorate in an honest and transparent way, or even to understand it themselves.david_herdson said:The details of Brexit were the responsibilities of individuals but had - say - Miliband won the 2015 election, the pressure to Brexit wouldn't have gone away.
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It would make it difficult to pretend that we are any longer a major power, presumably we will lose our UN security council seat and find it hard to justify Trident.SouthamObserver said:
I suspect the end of the UK will bring about a level of soul-searching and reflection in England that we probably need and which, in any case, will be forced on us by the rest of the world. That will have an affect on domestic politics.Richard_Nabavi said:Mind you, looking on the bright side, a Labour-led government without Scottish MPs to support it looks an agreeably remote prospect.
Is that what Leavers envisaged?0 -
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.0 -
Vodafone to create 2100 jobs and £2bn investment...all together now...despite... Brexit...0
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Of course it is much more likely that people are stupid than they dislike EU governance, eh?williamglenn said:
And the pressures were largely self-generated by a British political class that never understood how to communicate the realities of EU membership to the electorate in an honest and transparent way, or even to understand it themselves.david_herdson said:The details of Brexit were the responsibilities of individuals but had - say - Miliband won the 2015 election, the pressure to Brexit wouldn't have gone away.
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, WG.0 -
The first item on the agenda of negotiations is the rights of EU citizens. This means that the question of whether there should be a referendum on Scottish independence in order to protect Scotland from being Brexited is not merely for the UK government, but something which the EU will have to take a position on if May tries to resist.SeanT said:But HMG will simply refuse a vote before Brexit in 2019. It has to, otherwise it renders negotiations with the EU unfeasibly complex, chaotic, confusing, the EU would be negotiating with a member state that might easily cease to exist DURING the negotiations.
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https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/841292665496952834SeanT said:But HMG will simply refuse a vote before Brexit in 2019. It has to, otherwise it renders negotiations with the EU unfeasibly complex, chaotic, confusing, the EU would be negotiating with a member state that might easily cease to exist DURING the negotiations.
It's just a nonsense.
Even if May really wanted to allow an indyref2, she knows that she can't, in practicality (and Sturgeon knows this).
So it will have to be after Brexit in 2019. Sometime between 2019-2021 therefore seems likeliest.0 -
Go on then: favour us with how they should have communicated the 'realities of EU membership to the electorate in an honest and transparent way'.williamglenn said:
And the pressures were largely self-generated by a British political class that never understood how to communicate the realities of EU membership to the electorate in an honest and transparent way, or even to understand it themselves.david_herdson said:The details of Brexit were the responsibilities of individuals but had - say - Miliband won the 2015 election, the pressure to Brexit wouldn't have gone away.
FWIW, I argued at the time that not enough of a positive case was made for the benefits of the EU: the single market, freedom of movement for UK citizens etc. But the fact remains that it was far too easy to portray as an unaccountable, undemocratic, incompetent, expensive, power-hungry machine - because there was a large element of truth to those assertions.0 -
Whoever is PM when the Scots vote for independence will be remembered for that above all else. May knows this, as did Cameron.HYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
And all because Dave was scared that UKIP might let Ed Miliband win the 2015 general election.
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more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.0 -
I'm not a double-thief! I'm exercising the rare privileges of secondary posting afforded to all PBers who have offered winning tips at odds of 100/1 or more.
*polishes gold-plated wiffle stick*0 -
Orkney seems slightly unbothered, Berlin tho'..
https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/8412895980095201280 -
Fake news from Washington. Melania Trump was chatting to Rex Tillerson at a social gathering. "I bought Donald a parrot" she said. "That bird is so smart. Donald has already taught him to pronounce more than 200 words." "That's pretty impressive" said Tillerson. " But you realise he just speaks the words. He doesn't really understand what they mean." " Oh, I know" Melania said. " Neither does the parrot."0
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A refusal will be a gift to the yes campaign. Ignoring Scotland on Brexit. Ignoring Scotland on self-determination. Acting directly against the democratic will of the people.SeanT said:But HMG will simply refuse a vote before Brexit in 2019. It has to, otherwise it renders negotiations with the EU unfeasibly complex, chaotic, confusing, the EU would be negotiating with a member state that might easily cease to exist DURING the negotiations.
It's just a nonsense.
Even if May really wanted to allow an indyref2, she knows that she can't, in practicality (and Sturgeon knows this).
So it will have to be after Brexit in 2019. Sometime between 2019-2021 therefore seems likeliest.
And then what? The SNP hold the referendum anyway, if its a yes we get UDI. How would Maybe stop them?
"Unfeasibly complex, chaotic, confusing" - sounds like negotiations for hard brexit. When the diplomats who have to do the actual negotiation say 2 years isn't just impossible its insane, thats when you know its popcorn time.
If hard brexit sinks the union, and sinks the economy, its the death of the Conservative Party. I hope she knows what she's doing - thought conservatives were supposed to be conservative, not risk the house radicals...
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Most Leave voters probably don't care. Don't they identify as English over British?Alanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.0 -
And any Tory Brexiteer would be toxic. The new leader would have to be someone like Osborne whose first act would be to go to Brussels and say that in the light of our divorce from Scotland, the A50 process should be postponed indefinitely or withdrawn.SeanT said:TMay would resign if Scotland quit. Them's the rules. They may be unwritten, but they are the rules.
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Incidentally, I wrote this before the last 'once in a generation' referendum:
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/how-long-can-state-survive.html0 -
Probably googling to see where it isTheuniondivvie said:Orkney seems slightly unbothered, Berlin tho'..
https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/8412895980095201280 -
We can blame the pollsters for that...SouthamObserver said:
Whoever is PM when the Scots vote for independence will be remembered for that above all else. May knows this, as did Cameron.HYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
And all because Dave was scared that UKIP might let Ed Miliband win the 2015 general election.0 -
The 2022 Commonwealth Games will no longer take place in Durban, South Africa, the BBC understands.0
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I am sorry but given the posters the Leave campaign put up against immigration, their exploitation of the issue and the fact that opposition to unrestricted free movement was probably what pushed Leave over the line, the idea May could do nothing to control immigration was not on the cards. May May could resign but the fact she never called any indyref2 referendum puts her in a different position to Salmond, Cameron and SturgeonSeanT said:
But May went for Hard Brexit, which is Sturgeon's excuse for this vote.HYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
Look, this is a ridiculous argument. When politicians lose massive, epochal votes, they resign, as Salmond said after indyref - which is why he resigned. I predicted Cameron would have resigned if he'd lost indyref, he later admitted this was true (despite denying it beforehand).
I also predicted Cameron would resign if he lost Brexit - and he duly resigned (despite denying it beforehand).
TMay would resign if Scotland quit. Them's the rules. They may be unwritten, but they are the rules.0 -
Mr. Urquhart, relocated to Qatar?0
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Yet Sturgeon has today called indyref2 precisely because of BrexitAlanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.0 -
maybeisam said:
Most Leave voters probably don't care. Don't they identify as English over British?Alanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
but the nonsense that the SNP wouldnt seek an Indyref2 if it hadnt been for Brexit is simply plankton learning to post
the SNP exist for Independence thats their raison d'etre0 -
Absolute dreamer.williamglenn said:
And any Tory Brexiteer would be toxic. The new leader would have to be someone like Osborne whose first act would be to go to Brussels and say that in the light of our divorce from Scotland, the A50 process should be postponed indefinitely or withdrawn.SeanT said:TMay would resign if Scotland quit. Them's the rules. They may be unwritten, but they are the rules.
Might be worth starting to face reality and the prospect of losing a large bet to SeanT.0 -
The Welsh ones probably don't.isam said:
Most Leave voters probably don't care. Don't they identify as English over British?Alanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
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If the Scots vote for independence and of course if Sturgeon loses that will define her career too even more so than May because she called the vote, at least May will also go down as the PM who took the UK out of the EU regardless of what Scotland doesSouthamObserver said:
Whoever is PM when the Scots vote for independence will be remembered for that above all else. May knows this, as did Cameron.HYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
And all because Dave was scared that UKIP might let Ed Miliband win the 2015 general election.0 -
Useful excuse for her and causes difficulties for HMG - what's not for her ti like?HYUFD said:
Yet Sturgeon has today called indyref2 precisely because of BrexitAlanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
Amusingly she may end up out of UK and out of EU -0 -
HYUFD said:
Yet Sturgeon has today called indyref2 precisely because of BrexitAlanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
Sturgeon has called ref2 because she leads the SNP and that's their raison d'être.
Brexit is just today's excuse.
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Apparently Liverpool wants to host them. No doubt they'll want someone else to pay for them.FrancisUrquhart said:The 2022 Commonwealth Games will no longer take place in Durban, South Africa, the BBC understands.
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Sturgeon: "These considerations lead me to the conclusion that if Scotland is to have a real choice - when the terms of Brexit are known, but before it is too late to choose our own course - then that choice must be offered between the autumn of next year, 2018, and the spring of 2019."
"When the terms of Brexit are known?" Is she taking the piss?
First point: it's not as if the Britain-EU27 deal (if there is one) will have to be implemented before the ink is dry, is it? But what does Sturgeon know about international negotiations? She is the fool who when asked whether independence would mean that people would get Scottish passports, said sure, they'll have "Scottish" written on them when they come up for renewal.
Second point: what if she likes the terms of the Brexit deal? Eh? Why doesn't she contribute to it? She just wants independence at all costs, even if Scotland goes bankrupt and the Calais "jungle" moves to Coldstream.
For goodness sake, let's see some opposition in Scotland to this latrine of a politician. Get your acts together and cooperate, Ruth, Kezia and Willie.0 -
Nope Osborne is ruthless he would instantly turn himself into the man the Tory right can trust to screw the life out of Scotland in the Scexit negotiations, Brexit would by then be a done dealwilliamglenn said:
And any Tory Brexiteer would be toxic. The new leader would have to be someone like Osborne whose first act would be to go to Brussels and say that in the light of our divorce from Scotland, the A50 process should be postponed indefinitely or withdrawn.SeanT said:TMay would resign if Scotland quit. Them's the rules. They may be unwritten, but they are the rules.
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It's inevitable as many of us pointed out during the referendum.MarkHopkins said:HYUFD said:
Yet Sturgeon has today called indyref2 precisely because of BrexitAlanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
Sturgeon has called ref2 because she leads the SNP and that's their raison d'être.
Brexit is just today's excuse.0 -
The scots and Irish ones do?SouthamObserver said:
The Welsh ones probably don't.isam said:
Most Leave voters probably don't care. Don't they identify as English over British?Alanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.0 -
she'd have called Indyref2 if we'd stayed in, given everyone in Scotland a million pounds, made George Clooney available to roger every weegie woman in Glasgow and guaranteed Scotland would win every Calacutta Cup match by a 200 point margin for the rest of time.HYUFD said:
Yet Sturgeon has today called indyref2 precisely because of BrexitAlanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.0 -
LOL - pathetic wishful thinkingwilliamglenn said:
And any Tory Brexiteer would be toxic. The new leader would have to be someone like Osborne whose first act would be to go to Brussels and say that in the light of our divorce from Scotland, the A50 process should be postponed indefinitely or withdrawn.SeanT said:TMay would resign if Scotland quit. Them's the rules. They may be unwritten, but they are the rules.
Delusional in fact0 -
The EU is a side issue compared to the continuing existence of the UK. Yep, if Sturgeon loses that is what she will be remembered for.HYUFD said:
If the Scots vote for independence and of course if Sturgeon loses that will define her career too even more so than May because she called the vote, at least May will also go down as the PM who took the UK out of the EU regardless of what Scotland doesSouthamObserver said:
Whoever is PM when the Scots vote for independence will be remembered for that above all else. May knows this, as did Cameron.HYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
And all because Dave was scared that UKIP might let Ed Miliband win the 2015 general election.0 -
ExactlyMarkHopkins said:HYUFD said:
Yet Sturgeon has today called indyref2 precisely because of BrexitAlanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
Sturgeon has called ref2 because she leads the SNP and that's their raison d'être.
Brexit is just today's excuse.
0 -
It was the material change in circumstances she neededMarkHopkins said:HYUFD said:
Yet Sturgeon has today called indyref2 precisely because of BrexitAlanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
Sturgeon has called ref2 because she leads the SNP and that's their raison d'être.
Brexit is just today's excuse.0 -
It is starting to feel like the 1970s in International football Scotland qualify for the 1974 and 78 world cup England fail to get to any international tournament.However this time it is politics.0
-
I would imagine that the general mood about Scotland is mainly ambivalence but moves on to annoyance with Sturgeon and her blathering on and on and on and on....isam said:
Most Leave voters probably don't care. Don't they identify as English over British?Alanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
Scotland's internal politics will become as irrelevant to us as those of the Irish republic.
0 -
Orkney and Shetland may well want independence from Scotland.Theuniondivvie said:Orkney seems slightly unbothered, Berlin tho'..
https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/8412895980095201280 -
"Most Leave voters probably don't care. Don't they identify as English over British?"isam said:
The scots and Irish ones do?SouthamObserver said:
The Welsh ones probably don't.isam said:
Most Leave voters probably don't care. Don't they identify as English over British?Alanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
Like the Welsh Leavers, I suspect the Scottish and the Irish ones don't identify as English either. My guess is that they are the most likely of all to identify as British (except the SNP supporters who voted Leave to get a referendum).
0 -
How much is Nicola's announcement today intended to sway the votes going on this evening in the Lords and Commons? I'd say quite a lot, it would be good for the SNP if there were a load of caveats in the Bill.
On the subject of the actual referendum, surely it's inconceivable it would be allowed to take place before EU withdrawal, no matter how much Ms Grievance McGrievanceface would like that to be the case. The Lords, ironically, are likely to be those who throw it out on the basis that simultaneous negotiations on massive constitutional matters is a silly idea.
0 -
If a transitional period to manage Brexit is possible, the reverse for SCOT+EU (copyright claimed!) could also be possible.SouthamObserver said:
That's why 2021 is the likeliest time for a referendum. It suits May because it gives her a clear hand for the Brexit negotiation. It suits Sturgeon because it gives her four more years to build a case. And it suits the EU because it means an independent Scotland can be fast-tracked in as a member, without any worries about breaching protocols or upsetting the Spanish.TheScreamingEagles said:
Scotland already has the capacity to meet 20-25 of the Acquis Communautaire as things stand, and more could be added in the two year period before Brexit.
What Nicola really need now is a sponsor inside the EU to push its case for quick accession/acceptance.0 -
Oh, and Happy Birthday @SandyRentool
0 -
Ms Sturgeon is definitely aiming for a psychological effect with her timing. The announcement clearly aims to upstage Mrs May's Article 50 trigger any time from tomorrow. An independence referendum will hang like a dark cloud over the Brexit when it actually happens in two years time. Mrs May will declare Brexit to be Brexit, a huge success and Britain is taking back control. And everyone will be thinking, there's no Br in the Brexit and Britain may no longer exist to take back control.0
-
This would be the same England who trounced Scotland on Saturday and will still be in the G20 and NATO regardless of Scottish independenceYorkcity said:It is starting to feel like the 1970s in International football Scotland qualify for the 1974 and 78 world cup England fail to get to any international tournament.However this time it is politics.
0 -
I'd be very surprised if anyone with authority in Europe negotiated with the SNP without May's explicit approval. It would be rightly deemed a fundamentally hostile act.RochdalePioneers said:I'm not convinced by suggestions of delay to 2021. The reason for a 2nd referendum is Brexit - it will have to be held before Brexit to have enough impact. The SNP case will be simple:
1. The UK will be run by the Tories for a generation
2. The Tories don't have the UK's best interests in mind never mind Scotland
3. Brexit shows self-determination wins over all other factors. You really can change your future in a way many people didn't believe in 2014
4. Yes Scotland trades most with the rest of the UK. But that ship will sink with hard Brexit, so reforge the auld alliance and switch the focus back to Europe
5. An independent Scotland will remain part of the single market (she WILL get that offered by Brussels). And there's no question about being thrown out of the British Isles single market as we already have non-UK members in it (Eire, IOM, CI)
6. There's no risk-free status quo to fall back on now. Independence - the single market is more of the status quo than thrown on the mercy of WTO tariffs.
And so timings. Scotland will declare the referendum for next autumn and start its discussions with Brussels now. Westminster will say no, Scotland will go ahead with the vote anyway (or, unless Maybe doesn't want to present that particular gift to the leave case, it will happen next autumn without dispute).
Either way, the offer will be an independent Scotland in Europe, or a Scotland dragged to the bottom of the Atlantic by the sinking Brexit Britain. And if I had a vote, I'd vote to leave. And it puts SLAB in a hell of a position. Campaign to remain and give succour to both Corbyn and the Tories. Or campaign to leave and risk giving it to the SNP.
Were I Dugdale the appealing option surely is to provide the opposition to the SNP in an independent Scotland offering a Labour version of independence rather than eternal SNP rule.0 -
Happy birthday, Mr. Rentool.0
-
No it isn't, if anything Brexit would have led to ScexitSouthamObserver said:
The EU is a side issue compared to the continuing existence of the UK. Yep, if Sturgeon loses that is what she will be remembered for.HYUFD said:
If the Scots vote for independence and of course if Sturgeon loses that will define her career too even more so than May because she called the vote, at least May will also go down as the PM who took the UK out of the EU regardless of what Scotland doesSouthamObserver said:
Whoever is PM when the Scots vote for independence will be remembered for that above all else. May knows this, as did Cameron.HYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
And all because Dave was scared that UKIP might let Ed Miliband win the 2015 general election.0 -
She would have had almost no chance of winning though so she probably would not whatever threats she madeAlanbrooke said:
she'd have called Indyref2 if we'd stayed in, given everyone in Scotland a million pounds, made George Clooney available to roger every weegie woman in Glasgow and guaranteed Scotland would win every Calacutta Cup match by a 200 point margin for the rest of time.HYUFD said:
Yet Sturgeon has today called indyref2 precisely because of BrexitAlanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.0 -
Well seeing as you knew that I meant English people at the start, and were just being smart, I guess we can leave it rather than waste timeSouthamObserver said:
"Most Leave voters probably don't care. Don't they identify as English over British?"isam said:
The scots and Irish ones do?SouthamObserver said:
The Welsh ones probably don't.isam said:
Most Leave voters probably don't care. Don't they identify as English over British?Alanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
Like the Welsh Leavers, I suspect the Scottish and the Irish ones don't identify as English either. My guess is that they are the most likely of all to identify as British (except the SNP supporters who voted Leave to get a referendum).
Although it could be that most Leave voters identify as English0 -
She's desperate.Cyan said:Sturgeon: "These considerations lead me to the conclusion that if Scotland is to have a real choice - when the terms of Brexit are known, but before it is too late to choose our own course - then that choice must be offered between the autumn of next year, 2018, and the spring of 2019."
"When the terms of Brexit are known?" Is she taking the piss?
First point: it's not as if the Britain-EU27 deal (if there is one) will have to be implemented before the ink is dry, is it? But what does Sturgeon know about international negotiations? She is the fool who when asked whether independence would mean that people would get Scottish passports, said sure, they'll have "Scottish" written on them when they come up for renewal.
Second point: what if she likes the terms of the Brexit deal? Eh? Why doesn't she contribute to it? She just wants independence at all costs, even if Scotland goes bankrupt and the Calais "jungle" moves to Coldstream.
For goodness sake, let's see some opposition in Scotland to this latrine of a politician. Get your acts together and cooperate, Ruth, Kezia and Willie.
She knows that if she can't get the referendum done before 2020/2021 that the unionists will come together to loosen the SNP's grip on Scotland and her time will have passed.0 -
Ha, ha!!isam said:
Well seeing as you knew that I meant English people at the start, and were just being smart, I guess we can leave it rather than waste timeSouthamObserver said:
"Most Leave voters probably don't care. Don't they identify as English over British?"isam said:
The scots and Irish ones do?SouthamObserver said:
The Welsh ones probably don't.isam said:
Most Leave voters probably don't care. Don't they identify as English over British?Alanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
Like the Welsh Leavers, I suspect the Scottish and the Irish ones don't identify as English either. My guess is that they are the most likely of all to identify as British (except the SNP supporters who voted Leave to get a referendum).
0 -
Thank you Mr Pit! I'll be in your part of the world again in a few weeks time, but down towards the Saudi border again so no chance of a get-together unfortunately.Sandpit said:Oh, and Happy Birthday @SandyRentool
0 -
Lets face it - the SNP don't want to call a referendum, they want the UK government to not allow one whilst we negotiate Brexit.
0 -
I am very confident that were the UK to break up this would be considered a far more significant event than the UK leaving the EU. We may find out soon enough.HYUFD said:
No it isn't, if anything Brexit would have led to ScexitSouthamObserver said:
The EU is a side issue compared to the continuing existence of the UK. Yep, if Sturgeon loses that is what she will be remembered for.HYUFD said:
If the Scots vote for independence and of course if Sturgeon loses that will define her career too even more so than May because she called the vote, at least May will also go down as the PM who took the UK out of the EU regardless of what Scotland doesSouthamObserver said:
Whoever is PM when the Scots vote for independence will be remembered for that above all else. May knows this, as did Cameron.HYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
And all because Dave was scared that UKIP might let Ed Miliband win the 2015 general election.
0 -
We could always reciprocate by offering Catalonia a special deal.Charles said:I'd be very surprised if anyone with authority in Europe negotiated with the SNP without May's explicit approval. It would be rightly deemed a fundamentally hostile act.
0 -
Indeed. We have already seen how referendums can force a reshaping of views. They will be as nothing compared to the break up of our country.SouthamObserver said:
I suspect the end of the UK will bring about a level of soul-searching and reflection in England that we probably need and which, in any case, will be forced on us by the rest of the world. That will have an affect on domestic politics.Richard_Nabavi said:Mind you, looking on the bright side, a Labour-led government without Scottish MPs to support it looks an agreeably remote prospect.
0 -
Yet more guffHYUFD said:
She would have had almost no chance of winning though so she probably would not whatever threats she madeAlanbrooke said:
she'd have called Indyref2 if we'd stayed in, given everyone in Scotland a million pounds, made George Clooney available to roger every weegie woman in Glasgow and guaranteed Scotland would win every Calacutta Cup match by a 200 point margin for the rest of time.HYUFD said:
Yet Sturgeon has today called indyref2 precisely because of BrexitAlanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
0 -
"Once in a generation" they say, but this belies their monikers –david_herdson said:
salmon return to spawn once in two to four years, whereas sturgeon take some fifteen years to reach spawning maturity.
0 -
The EU has made clear they have no interest in those people other than as useful weaponswilliamglenn said:
The first item on the agenda of negotiations is the rights of EU citizens. This means that the question of whether there should be a referendum on Scottish independence in order to protect Scotland from being Brexited is not merely for the UK government, but something which the EU will have to take a position on if May tries to resist.SeanT said:But HMG will simply refuse a vote before Brexit in 2019. It has to, otherwise it renders negotiations with the EU unfeasibly complex, chaotic, confusing, the EU would be negotiating with a member state that might easily cease to exist DURING the negotiations.
0 -
It's what back channels are for.Charles said:
I'd be very surprised if anyone with authority in Europe negotiated with the SNP without May's explicit approval. It would be rightly deemed a fundamentally hostile act.RochdalePioneers said:I'm not convinced by suggestions of delay to 2021. The reason for a 2nd referendum is Brexit - it will have to be held before Brexit to have enough impact. The SNP case will be simple:
1. The UK will be run by the Tories for a generation
2. The Tories don't have the UK's best interests in mind never mind Scotland
3. Brexit shows self-determination wins over all other factors. You really can change your future in a way many people didn't believe in 2014
4. Yes Scotland trades most with the rest of the UK. But that ship will sink with hard Brexit, so reforge the auld alliance and switch the focus back to Europe
5. An independent Scotland will remain part of the single market (she WILL get that offered by Brussels). And there's no question about being thrown out of the British Isles single market as we already have non-UK members in it (Eire, IOM, CI)
6. There's no risk-free status quo to fall back on now. Independence - the single market is more of the status quo than thrown on the mercy of WTO tariffs.
And so timings. Scotland will declare the referendum for next autumn and start its discussions with Brussels now. Westminster will say no, Scotland will go ahead with the vote anyway (or, unless Maybe doesn't want to present that particular gift to the leave case, it will happen next autumn without dispute).
Either way, the offer will be an independent Scotland in Europe, or a Scotland dragged to the bottom of the Atlantic by the sinking Brexit Britain. And if I had a vote, I'd vote to leave. And it puts SLAB in a hell of a position. Campaign to remain and give succour to both Corbyn and the Tories. Or campaign to leave and risk giving it to the SNP.
Were I Dugdale the appealing option surely is to provide the opposition to the SNP in an independent Scotland offering a Labour version of independence rather than eternal SNP rule.
0 -
A homage, if you will.Richard_Nabavi said:
We could always reciprocate by offering Catalonia a special deal.Charles said:I'd be very surprised if anyone with authority in Europe negotiated with the SNP without May's explicit approval. It would be rightly deemed a fundamentally hostile act.
0 -
Does anyone know the timetable for article 50 events today?0
-
Unfortunately I don't think so. A potential hard border between the rUK and Scotland (ie no EEA) is an argument to reject independence.SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
What might save the Union is oodles and oodles of patronage that Ms Sturgeon could claim as her "working hard for Scotland". Incidentally that patronage wouldn't just apply to Scotland. "Taking back control" really means buying people off on a massive scale: Northern Ireland, member states of the EU, especially in East Europe, favoured corporates like Nissan, third party countries that might do a deal with the UK. Mrs May doesn't appear to be interested in going down that route however.0 -
The fact you have no factual response I think confirms the pointAlanbrooke said:
Yet more guffHYUFD said:
She would have had almost no chance of winning though so she probably would not whatever threats she madeAlanbrooke said:
she'd have called Indyref2 if we'd stayed in, given everyone in Scotland a million pounds, made George Clooney available to roger every weegie woman in Glasgow and guaranteed Scotland would win every Calacutta Cup match by a 200 point margin for the rest of time.HYUFD said:
Yet Sturgeon has today called indyref2 precisely because of BrexitAlanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.0 -
0
-
/scott on/ Brexit hasn't happened yet / scott off/FrancisUrquhart said:Vodafone to create 2100 jobs and £2bn investment...all together now...despite... Brexit...
minimal change in rate of exchange
/Scott on/ Because of Brexit / Scott off/0 -
?SouthamObserver said:
Ha, ha!!isam said:
Well seeing as you knew that I meant English people at the start, and were just being smart, I guess we can leave it rather than waste timeSouthamObserver said:
"Most Leave voters probably don't care. Don't they identify as English over British?"isam said:
The scots and Irish ones do?SouthamObserver said:
The Welsh ones probably don't.isam said:
Most Leave voters probably don't care. Don't they identify as English over British?Alanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
Like the Welsh Leavers, I suspect the Scottish and the Irish ones don't identify as English either. My guess is that they are the most likely of all to identify as British (except the SNP supporters who voted Leave to get a referendum).
In fact it looks like my original contention could be true
England had 15.2m Leave voters, while the Scots, Welsh and NI Leavers only add up to 2.2m
So yes, most Leavers probably identify as English0 -
I know you are joking, but it's worth pointing out that Catalonia wishes to stay inside the EU and will not do anything to sour relationships with Brussels.Richard_Nabavi said:
We could always reciprocate by offering Catalonia a special deal.Charles said:I'd be very surprised if anyone with authority in Europe negotiated with the SNP without May's explicit approval. It would be rightly deemed a fundamentally hostile act.
0 -
Why? Scotland has less than a tenth of the population of the UK but the UK over a tenth of the population of the EU and if England and Wales voted Leave it was in part because they felt they could make their own way in the world without either the EU or Scotland, for good or illSouthamObserver said:
I am very confident that were the UK to break up this would be considered a far more significant event than the UK leaving the EU. We may find out soon enough.HYUFD said:
No it isn't, if anything Brexit would have led to ScexitSouthamObserver said:
The EU is a side issue compared to the continuing existence of the UK. Yep, if Sturgeon loses that is what she will be remembered for.HYUFD said:
If the Scots vote for independence and of course if Sturgeon loses that will define her career too even more so than May because she called the vote, at least May will also go down as the PM who took the UK out of the EU regardless of what Scotland doesSouthamObserver said:
Whoever is PM when the Scots vote for independence will be remembered for that above all else. May knows this, as did Cameron.HYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
And all because Dave was scared that UKIP might let Ed Miliband win the 2015 general election.0 -
usual public party lineGIN1138 said:0 -
It would look incredibly fake if Labour tried that.williamglenn said:
An English Labour party wrapping itself in the flag of St George would be a surprisingly tough opponent.Richard_Nabavi said:Mind you, looking on the bright side, a Labour-led government without Scottish MPs to support it looks an agreeably remote prospect.
I mean, Emily Thornberry et al.
Would attract universal derision.
0 -
@AliBunkallSKY: NATO Secretary General @jensstoltenberg tells me that if Scotland leaves the UK it would also leave NATO, and would have to reapply to join.0
-
Have a good day today, and a safe trip here. You're in O&G, or working on the nuclear station?SandyRentool said:
Thank you Mr Pit! I'll be in your part of the world again in a few weeks time, but down towards the Saudi border again so no chance of a get-together unfortunately.Sandpit said:Oh, and Happy Birthday @SandyRentool
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The voters of England and Wales made clear that they are not that interested in protecting the rights of British nationals living in EU member states on 23rd June 2016.Floater said:
The EU has made clear they have no interest in those people other than as useful weaponswilliamglenn said:
The first item on the agenda of negotiations is the rights of EU citizens. This means that the question of whether there should be a referendum on Scottish independence in order to protect Scotland from being Brexited is not merely for the UK government, but something which the EU will have to take a position on if May tries to resist.SeanT said:But HMG will simply refuse a vote before Brexit in 2019. It has to, otherwise it renders negotiations with the EU unfeasibly complex, chaotic, confusing, the EU would be negotiating with a member state that might easily cease to exist DURING the negotiations.
0 -
Yes that woudl eb why they are taking in all the Eastern Europen countries that are way way smaller than Scotland , they will have no interest in 30%+ of EU fishing interests right enoughRichard_Nabavi said:FPT, but relevant to this thread:
I would extremely surprised if it doesn't. Joining the EEA and EFTA would require agreement from Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Liechtenstein, and from the EU27 (actually EU28 until the UK actually leaves!). There might be a mechanism whereby the EU could use QMV and force any dissenters amongst the EU27 to amend the EEA Treaty against their will, but that must surely be politically very unlikely even if were legally possible.surbiton said:Fine. Does that apply to the EEA as well ?
What you have to remember is that Scotland is of almost no interest to the EU. It's tiny, it's remote and its public finances as an independent state would be dire. Why would our EU friends go out of their way to give it special treatment? They've got bigger fish to fry.0 -
Build a case for independence or for Scottish membership of the EU when rUK will be outside both the single market and the currency union?SouthamObserver said:That's why 2021 is the likeliest time for a referendum. It suits May because it gives her a clear hand for the Brexit negotiation. It suits Sturgeon because it gives her four more years to build a case. And it suits the EU because it means an independent Scotland can be fast-tracked in as a member, without any worries about breaching protocols or upsetting the Spanish.
The SNP play to the juvenile mentality of "Don't you English tell us what to do". Which is such an ignorant attitude, given that Scottish national identity is rammed down people's throats in Scotland far more than English identity is in England. At the moment, most of the SNP's voters probably can't focus on the fact that a state can only belong to the EU if it accepts EU rules. They're so busy trying to break from "parental" England that they don't realise the alternative is going to work for "boss" EU. There isn't going to be a "Nicola's deal" for a tinpot little country like Scotland.
She'd have to accept full freedom of movement. Bulgarians and Romanians who want to get to the bright lights of London or Manchester will therefore flock to Scotland and try to go south. And RUK won't accept them.
She'd also have to accept customs tariffs. RUK would be further away from the EU than say Turkey is at the moment. The border would become a hard external EU border.
This is the worst possible outcome for Scotland. Vote SNP if you want it. The SNP is - inshallah - likely to get slaughtered in indyref2.
There will come a time when people just aren't so stupid, when they realise that if A is in a single market and customs union with B, and C isn't, then A cannot be in that relationship with C.
How about a referendum on whether or not Scotland should apply to join the EU? If it's that important, ask people. Have three options on the ballot:
1) Scotland should stay in Britain
2) Scotland should become an independent country and apply for EU membership
3) Scotland should become an independent country and not apply for EU membership
People should get it through their heads that Scotland may have the right to leave the parental home but it has no automatic right to join the EU.0 -
OK.HYUFD said:
Why? Scotland has less than a tenth of the population of the UK but the UK over a tenth of the population of the EU and if England and Wales voted Leave it was in part because they felt they could make their own way in the world without either the EU or Scotland, for good or illSouthamObserver said:
I am very confident that were the UK to break up this would be considered a far more significant event than the UK leaving the EU. We may find out soon enough.HYUFD said:
No it isn't, if anything Brexit would have led to ScexitSouthamObserver said:
The EU is a side issue compared to the continuing existence of the UK. Yep, if Sturgeon loses that is what she will be remembered for.HYUFD said:
If the Scots vote for independence and of course if Sturgeon loses that will define her career too even more so than May because she called the vote, at least May will also go down as the PM who took the UK out of the EU regardless of what Scotland doesSouthamObserver said:
Whoever is PM when the Scots vote for independence will be remembered for that above all else. May knows this, as did Cameron.HYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
And all because Dave was scared that UKIP might let Ed Miliband win the 2015 general election.
0 -
If Brexit was a contributory factor in Scottish Independence and a United Ireland .England and Wales would be a very diminished actor on the world stage.Personally we need a politician with gravitas to put the case for major constitutional reform .A federal UK with an English Parliament preferably in York.HYUFD said:
This would be the same England who trounced Scotland on Saturday and will still be in the G20 and NATO regardless of Scottish independenceYorkcity said:It is starting to feel like the 1970s in International football Scotland qualify for the 1974 and 78 world cup England fail to get to any international tournament.However this time it is politics.
0 -
your opinion isnt actually a factHYUFD said:
The fact you have no factual response I think confirms the pointAlanbrooke said:
Yet more guffHYUFD said:
She would have had almost no chance of winning though so she probably would not whatever threats she madeAlanbrooke said:
she'd have called Indyref2 if we'd stayed in, given everyone in Scotland a million pounds, made George Clooney available to roger every weegie woman in Glasgow and guaranteed Scotland would win every Calacutta Cup match by a 200 point margin for the rest of time.HYUFD said:
Yet Sturgeon has today called indyref2 precisely because of BrexitAlanbrooke said:
more guffHYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.0 -
Any evidence for that suggestion? Everything I have seen so far suggests the opposite.Mortimer said:
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
...
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
First of all you wouldn't choose David Davies as your lead negotiator. Secondly Mrs May seems more interested in appeasing factions in her party than getting a good deal. Thirdly, she hasn't matched Team GB with the real negotiating talent that can be found on the EU side. Fourthly, she claims "No deal is better than a bad deal" when realistically there is no chance of a no deal. We can agree more or we can agree the minimum and if the minimum is her "no deal" option that would be the worst possible outcome And so on.0 -
@BBCNormanS: Theresa May accuses Nicola Sturgeon of "playing politics" with call for indyref2
0 -
Flanders,Richard_Nabavi said:
We could always reciprocate by offering Catalonia a special deal.Charles said:I'd be very surprised if anyone with authority in Europe negotiated with the SNP without May's explicit approval. It would be rightly deemed a fundamentally hostile act.
Wallonia
Faroes
Corsica
Lombardy
Sardinia
Sicily
Frisia
Scania
To name but a few....
No end of mischief......0 -
@SouthamObserver
English Leavers 15.2m
Scottish Leavers 1m
Welsh Leavers 854k
NI Leavers 349k
Probable that most Leavers identify as English0 -
That is absolutely right. The UK has a lot more history and the break up would be of one of the world's major players. The EU is still the EU without the UK, and the UK will probably be rejoining soon.SouthamObserver said:
I am very confident that were the UK to break up this would be considered a far more significant event than the UK leaving the EU. We may find out soon enough.HYUFD said:
No it isn't, if anything Brexit would have led to ScexitSouthamObserver said:
The EU is a side issue compared to the continuing existence of the UK. Yep, if Sturgeon loses that is what she will be remembered for.HYUFD said:
If the Scots vote for independence and of course if Sturgeon loses that will define her career too even more so than May because she called the vote, at least May will also go down as the PM who took the UK out of the EU regardless of what Scotland doesSouthamObserver said:
Whoever is PM when the Scots vote for independence will be remembered for that above all else. May knows this, as did Cameron.HYUFD said:
May voted Remain, if the country breaks up it will be Leave voters who provided the SNP with the fuel they neededSeanT said:
Lots of wishful thinking there. She hasn't even started (b) and (c) is years away.Mortimer said:
Indeed.Tissue_Price said:
Saved for Farage! Hurrah!SeanT said:FFS this is all avoidable if TMay softens her Brexit stance. Go for EEA-type status. Fuck Liam Fox. The UK is saved.
In any case, surely the Government are putting forward a Hard Brexit (and putting it about that we are prepared for "no deal") precisely so that we can get a softer Brexit in negotiations.
Unlike the Poshos, Mrs May actually knows how to:
a) Whip the parly party
b) Conduct a negotiation with a basically hostile bloc
and looks well on course to
c) Win a proper majority by securing Tory/Lab marginals, none of this knifeedge rubbish achieved by becoming pseudo Lib Dems...
Meanwhile, she risks (d) breaking up the country by pursuing Hard Brexit. That will be her legacy, if she loses indyref2.
And all because Dave was scared that UKIP might let Ed Miliband win the 2015 general election.0 -
An act utterly beneath a politician...Scott_P said:@BBCNormanS: Theresa May accuses Nicola Sturgeon of "playing politics" with call for indyref2
0 -
I actually doubt that losing a few million Scots and a few hills and lakes would significantly weaken the rest of the UK economically/politically /militarily. People on here are doing the usual ott reactions spurred on by SeanT who's clearly started early today and SO who's glass is characteristically 3/4 empty!logical_song said:
It would make it difficult to pretend that we are any longer a major power, presumably we will lose our UN security council seat and find it hard to justify Trident.SouthamObserver said:
I suspect the end of the UK will bring about a level of soul-searching and reflection in England that we probably need and which, in any case, will be forced on us by the rest of the world. That will have an affect on domestic politics.Richard_Nabavi said:Mind you, looking on the bright side, a Labour-led government without Scottish MPs to support it looks an agreeably remote prospect.
Is that what Leavers envisaged?0 -
We cannot split up Belgium, Belgium was created to get up the nose of the French.CarlottaVance said:
Flanders,Richard_Nabavi said:
We could always reciprocate by offering Catalonia a special deal.Charles said:I'd be very surprised if anyone with authority in Europe negotiated with the SNP without May's explicit approval. It would be rightly deemed a fundamentally hostile act.
Wallonia
Faroes
Corsica
Lombardy
Sardinia
Sicily
Frisia
Scania
To name but a few....
No end of mischief......
I'd rather the UK split than Belgium.0 -
What a stupid comment they all are that is their job.Scott_P said:@BBCNormanS: Theresa May accuses Nicola Sturgeon of "playing politics" with call for indyref2
0 -
what is the sodding point of Belgium ?TheScreamingEagles said:
We cannot split up Belgium, Belgium was created to get up the nose of the French.CarlottaVance said:
Flanders,Richard_Nabavi said:
We could always reciprocate by offering Catalonia a special deal.Charles said:I'd be very surprised if anyone with authority in Europe negotiated with the SNP without May's explicit approval. It would be rightly deemed a fundamentally hostile act.
Wallonia
Faroes
Corsica
Lombardy
Sardinia
Sicily
Frisia
Scania
To name but a few....
No end of mischief......
I'd rather the UK split than Belgium.
Really it was one of this country's worst ideas0 -
It takes two to tango. Scotland and England are drifting apart. And Scotland has every right to join the EU once it leaves the UK. It would no doubt be fast-tracked to membership and be given special status in advance of that.Cyan said:
Build a case for independence or for Scottish membership of the EU when rUK will be outside both the single market and the currency union?SouthamObserver said:That's why 2021 is the likeliest time for a referendum. It suits May because it gives her a clear hand for the Brexit negotiation. It suits Sturgeon because it gives her four more years to build a case. And it suits the EU because it means an independent Scotland can be fast-tracked in as a member, without any worries about breaching protocols or upsetting the Spanish.
The SNP play to the juvenile mentality of "Don't you English tell us what to do". Which is such an ignorant attitude, given that Scottish national identity is rammed down people's throats in Scotland far more than English identity is in England. At the moment, most of the SNP's voters probably can't focus on the fact that a state can only belong to the EU if it accepts EU rules. They're so busy trying to break from "parental" England that they don't realise the alternative is going to work for "boss" EU. There isn't going to be a "Nicola's deal" for a tinpot little country like Scotland.
She'd have to accept full freedom of movement. Bulgarians and Romanians who want to get to the bright lights of London or Manchester will therefore flock to Scotland and try to go south. And RUK won't accept them.
She'd also have to accept customs tariffs. RUK would be further away from the EU than say Turkey is at the moment. The border would become a hard external EU border.
This is the worst possible outcome for Scotland. Vote SNP if you want it. The SNP is - inshallah - likely to get slaughtered in indyref2.
There will come a time when people just aren't so stupid, when they realise that if A is in a single market and customs union with B, and C isn't, then A cannot be in that relationship with C.
How about a referendum on whether or not Scotland should apply to join the EU? If it's that important, ask people. Have three options on the ballot:
1) Scotland should stay in Britain
2) Scotland should become an independent country and apply for EU membership
3) Scotland should become an independent country and not apply for EU membership
People should get it through their heads that Scotland may have the right to leave the parental home but it has no automatic right to join the EU.
0 -
They missed off "better than me"Yorkcity said:
What a stupid comment they all are that is their job.Scott_P said:@BBCNormanS: Theresa May accuses Nicola Sturgeon of "playing politics" with call for indyref2
0 -
