More than 17m people voted for it. That *quite* a big craving.
No, that's how many people turned out when forced to make a binary choice after a woeful campaign. The number who actually craved this was far far smaller.
How many actually crave the EU?
Well there's me... That's one...
Seriously though, think of all the wasted energy since the downfall of Thatcher that's been spent on endless debates about Europe. If we had just accepted that we were in the EU to stay and that was the end of the matter, we'd have been able to spend all of that time so much more productively. However much some people may struggle with the concept, it's who we are.
It's who you think we are. I prefer my interlocutors to at least admit the validity of different views. I struggle to see why any nation would make an open ended and permanent commitment to any organisation. Zealotry of any stripe is deeply unattractive.
All members of the EU remain sovereign so any commitment is only permanent as long as we chose for it to be. The very fact we are currently debating the process of withdrawal from the EU bears this out.
That does not change the fact that constantly agitating for withdrawal and trying to undermine the EU itself has been thoroughly self-defeating and corrosive to our politics for a very long time.
Ah yet again William shows both his ignorance and his contempt for basic facts. We have been over this many times before William and every time you have been proved to be a feckwit. Don't make yourself look dumb yet again.
Brexit is turning out to be even more hopeless and depressing than I feared it would be.
The leavers have torn my country apart.
Nope. There has never been a country called the UK. It is a Unitary State made up of four different countries. No one has touched your country -whichever one you live in.
I am with Pong on this one. I regard the UK as my country and it will be diminished if Scotland is no longer a part of it. I have been hanging around online today to see if any leavers would have the good grace to concede that they would have voted differently if they had thought that the end of the UK would be the result. Haven't seen one yet, but they must exist.
"I'm not expecting to grow flowers in the desert, but I can live and breathe and see the sun in wintertime" - Lovely words from my favourite song about the UK
Brexit is turning out to be even more hopeless and depressing than I feared it would be.
The leavers have torn my country apart.
Nope. There has never been a country called the UK. It is a Unitary State made up of four different countries. No one has touched your country -whichever one you live in.
I am with Pong on this one. I regard the UK as my country and it will be diminished if Scotland is no longer a part of it. I have been hanging around online today to see if any leavers would have the good grace to concede that they would have voted differently if they had thought that the end of the UK would be the result. Haven't seen one yet, but they must exist.
I will feel more than a twinge of sadness if the Scots leave, but all Leavers would agree that if that's what they decide, no-one has a right to deny them.
The needs of the 8% should not outweigh those of the 92%. The Scots are not The Elect.
Brexit is turning out to be even more hopeless and depressing than I feared it would be.
The leavers have torn my country apart.
Nope. There has never been a country called the UK. It is a Unitary State made up of four different countries. No one has touched your country -whichever one you live in.
I am with Pong on this one. I regard the UK as my country and it will be diminished if Scotland is no longer a part of it. I have been hanging around online today to see if any leavers would have the good grace to concede that they would have voted differently if they had thought that the end of the UK would be the result. Haven't seen one yet, but they must exist.
THE SNP leader and First Minister Alex Salmond attempted to break the union long before the EU referendum was called. Nicola Sturgeon, is now attempting to do exactly the same under the pretext of the EU referendum which she’d still have done, irrespective of the result.
Pre Brexit – 32% Post Brexit – 19% Not in the next 20 years – 25% Never – 24%
TCTC
Nov 2016: Yougov Scotland
Referendum Pre Brexit - 39% No Referendum Pre Brexit - 61%
The most pro-referendum voters are under 35, C2DE etc.
It very much looks to me that Sturgeon has picked the wrong fight at the wrong time and is relying on the wrong demographic for support. Additionally,
SNP Unionists as a proportion of the SNP vote as:
16% Ipsos Mori 22% Panelbase 25% Yougov
If this action alienates this element of the SNP vote we could start to see the SNP on sub 40% fairly soon.
Sturgeon has to fight now. Scotland seeking independence once the UK has left the EU means that they'd have to agree a slightly painful exit from the UK and a slightly painful joining of the EU. There's just a chance that Scotland can sail through the battles and find itself in clear waters.
The numbers don't look promising for her. All the polls are essentially saying she only has the least reliable voters.
Strategically, I really think they should be backing Brexit, then Anglosphere trade - and then going for Indy once it is all in place around 2025 whilst building the necessary separatist structures through staged devolution.
Brexit is turning out to be even more hopeless and depressing than I feared it would be.
The leavers have torn my country apart.
Nope. There has never been a country called the UK. It is a Unitary State made up of four different countries. No one has touched your country -whichever one you live in.
I am with Pong on this one. I regard the UK as my country and it will be diminished if Scotland is no longer a part of it. I have been hanging around online today to see if any leavers would have the good grace to concede that they would have voted differently if they had thought that the end of the UK would be the result. Haven't seen one yet, but they must exist.
What I find odd is that everyone assumes Yes would win a second independence referendum. I think that's far from certain.
I was neutral on the last Sindref and I'll be neutral again. As a Brexiteer, however, every time this was used as a reason for voting Remain, I couldn't help but think "two birds, one stone."
Brexit is turning out to be even more hopeless and depressing than I feared it would be.
The leavers have torn my country apart.
Nope. There has never been a country called the UK. It is a Unitary State made up of four different countries. No one has touched your country -whichever one you live in.
I am with Pong on this one. I regard the UK as my country and it will be diminished if Scotland is no longer a part of it. I have been hanging around online today to see if any leavers would have the good grace to concede that they would have voted differently if they had thought that the end of the UK would be the result. Haven't seen one yet, but they must exist.
I will feel more than a twinge of sadness if the Scots leave, but all Leavers would agree that if that's what they decide, no-one has a right to deny them.
The needs of the 8% should not outweigh those of the 92%. The Scots are not The Elect.
I hope everyone would agree they have the right to decide. One of the things I like about the UK is that it is the voluntary union between Scotland and England.
Pre Brexit – 32% Post Brexit – 19% Not in the next 20 years – 25% Never – 24%
TCTC
Nov 2016: Yougov Scotland
Referendum Pre Brexit - 39% No Referendum Pre Brexit - 61%
The most pro-referendum voters are under 35, C2DE etc.
It very much looks to me that Sturgeon has picked the wrong fight at the wrong time and is relying on the wrong demographic for support. Additionally,
SNP Unionists as a proportion of the SNP vote as:
16% Ipsos Mori 22% Panelbase 25% Yougov
If this action alienates this element of the SNP vote we could start to see the SNP on sub 40% fairly soon.
Sturgeon has to fight now. Scotland seeking independence once the UK has left the EU means that they'd have to agree a slightly painful exit from the UK and a slightly painful joining of the EU. There's just a chance that Scotland can sail through the battles and find itself in clear waters.
The numbers don't look promising for her. All the polls are essentially saying she only has the least reliable voters.
Strategically, I really think they should be backing Brexit, then Anglosphere trade - and then going for Indy once it is all in place around 2025 whilst building the necessary separatist structures through staged devolution.
Impatience is going to be her undoing.
Patience lost the Quebec separatist the referendum.
I am in favour of the Scots choosing their own destiny. The SNP & Greens have a majority in the Scottish parliament I believe - and as it was in the SNP manifesto then I think the question can be asked again...
But it is not a done deal for the SNP. In particular what happens if they lose again ?
My biggest question to supporters of independence is what tax rises and/or spending cuts are you prepared to make in order to reduce Scotland's deficit to 3%.
I believe the EU will be receptive to the Scots remaining/rejoining if they can meet this hurdle (Of course they will have to adopt the Euro as well), the 3% issue is the big one for me though. They will not want another Greece like situation.
But just how will this 3% be met ? A Scotland outside both the EU and the UK is surely an economic disaster.
Brexit is turning out to be even more hopeless and depressing than I feared it would be.
The leavers have torn my country apart.
Nope. There has never been a country called the UK. It is a Unitary State made up of four different countries. No one has touched your country -whichever one you live in.
I am with Pong on this one. I regard the UK as my country and it will be diminished if Scotland is no longer a part of it. I have been hanging around online today to see if any leavers would have the good grace to concede that they would have voted differently if they had thought that the end of the UK would be the result. Haven't seen one yet, but they must exist.
It doesn't matter what you think. Factually you are wrong and there are many millions in both England and Scotland who rightly do not consider the UK as a country.
And why should it be 'good grace to concede' something that is meaningless for me. I campaigned for Scottish Independence last time round on the basis that I wanted Scotland as a good neighbour and friend rather than a reluctant servant.
Brexit is turning out to be even more hopeless and depressing than I feared it would be.
The leavers have torn my country apart.
Nope. There has never been a country called the UK. It is a Unitary State made up of four different countries. No one has touched your country -whichever one you live in.
I am with Pong on this one. I regard the UK as my country and it will be diminished if Scotland is no longer a part of it. I have been hanging around online today to see if any leavers would have the good grace to concede that they would have voted differently if they had thought that the end of the UK would be the result. Haven't seen one yet, but they must exist.
I will feel more than a twinge of sadness if the Scots leave, but all Leavers would agree that if that's what they decide, no-one has a right to deny them.
The needs of the 8% should not outweigh those of the 92%. The Scots are not The Elect.
I hope everyone would agree they have the right to decide. One of the things I like about the UK is that it is the voluntary union between Scotland and England.
If the Scots truly want out because of our EU membership decision, then the Union is already dead. A referendum would merely ratify that.
Pre Brexit – 32% Post Brexit – 19% Not in the next 20 years – 25% Never – 24%
TCTC
Nov 2016: Yougov Scotland
Referendum Pre Brexit - 39% No Referendum Pre Brexit - 61%
The most pro-referendum voters are under 35, C2DE etc.
It very much looks to me that Sturgeon has picked the wrong fight at the wrong time and is relying on the wrong demographic for support. Additionally,
SNP Unionists as a proportion of the SNP vote as:
16% Ipsos Mori 22% Panelbase 25% Yougov
If this action alienates this element of the SNP vote we could start to see the SNP on sub 40% fairly soon.
Sturgeon has to fight now. Scotland seeking independence once the UK has left the EU means that they'd have to agree a slightly painful exit from the UK and a slightly painful joining of the EU. There's just a chance that Scotland can sail through the battles and find itself in clear waters.
I think both entities, both the UK and the EU will be more benevolent towards their former constituents.
I don't IndyRef II is a done deal for the SNP. In particular what happens if they lose again ?
May can probably play to that. It's entirely sensible to insist that Indy2 is a vote for a particular plan. (Brexit has taught us this.., she can easily say.) If the SNP have to put together a plan for the precise terms of Scotland's leaving the Union then they won't be able to.
I can't see us having another woolly referendum in the UK.
If I was May, I'd be tempted to delay triggering A50 and make Scotland have their referendum on June 1. And then take it from there once we know their decision.
I don't IndyRef II is a done deal for the SNP. In particular what happens if they lose again ?
May can probably play to that. It's entirely sensible to insist that Indy2 is a vote for a particular plan. (Brexit has taught us this.., she can easily say.) If the SNP have to put together a plan for the precise terms of Scotland's leaving the Union then they won't be able to.
I can't see us having another woolly referendum in the UK.
It will absolutely have to be legally binding. And the SNP must know that politically speaking this is their very very last chance - at least till all of us on this board have shuffled off this mortal coil at least.
Its really double or quits stuff, fair play to Sturgeon for pushing all her chips into the middle with a middle pair.
Brexit is turning out to be even more hopeless and depressing than I feared it would be.
The leavers have torn my country apart.
Nope. There has never been a country called the UK. It is a Unitary State made up of four different countries. No one has touched your country -whichever one you live in.
I am with Pong on this one. I regard the UK as my country and it will be diminished if Scotland is no longer a part of it. I have been hanging around online today to see if any leavers would have the good grace to concede that they would have voted differently if they had thought that the end of the UK would be the result. Haven't seen one yet, but they must exist.
What I find odd is that everyone assumes Yes would win a second independence referendum. I think that's far from certain.
I was neutral on the last Sindref and I'll be neutral again. As a Brexiteer, however, every time this was used as a reason for voting Remain, I couldn't help but think "two birds, one stone."
"I couldn't help but think "two birds, one stone." ". Neutral, huh ?
Brexit is turning out to be even more hopeless and depressing than I feared it would be.
The leavers have torn my country apart.
Nope. There has never been a country called the UK. It is a Unitary State made up of four different countries. No one has touched your country -whichever one you live in.
I am with Pong on this one. I regard the UK as my country and it will be diminished if Scotland is no longer a part of it. I have been hanging around online today to see if any leavers would have the good grace to concede that they would have voted differently if they had thought that the end of the UK would be the result. Haven't seen one yet, but they must exist.
I will feel more than a twinge of sadness if the Scots leave, but all Leavers would agree that if that's what they decide, no-one has a right to deny them.
The needs of the 8% should not outweigh those of the 92%. The Scots are not The Elect.
I hope everyone would agree they have the right to decide. One of the things I like about the UK is that it is the voluntary union between Scotland and England.
If the Scots truly want out because of our EU membership decision, then the Union is already dead. A referendum would merely ratify that.
I still think the nationalists will lose.
The psychological barrier has been broken so it will be less of a leap in the dark than previously. If I were Scots I would not be rushing to maintain the Union.
Brexit is turning out to be even more hopeless and depressing than I feared it would be.
The leavers have torn my country apart.
Nope. There has never been a country called the UK. It is a Unitary State made up of four different countries. No one has touched your country -whichever one you live in.
I am with Pong on this one. I regard the UK as my country and it will be diminished if Scotland is no longer a part of it. I have been hanging around online today to see if any leavers would have the good grace to concede that they would have voted differently if they had thought that the end of the UK would be the result. Haven't seen one yet, but they must exist.
What I find odd is that everyone assumes Yes would win a second independence referendum. I think that's far from certain.
I was neutral on the last Sindref and I'll be neutral again. As a Brexiteer, however, every time this was used as a reason for voting Remain, I couldn't help but think "two birds, one stone."
Why? If you were neutral, then who or what are the two birds?
I've got a feeling everyone in Scotland who voted 'Yes' last time will still vote 'Yes', however some who voted 'No' due to economic fears will now vote 'Yes'. I can see 'Yes' winning because of this...
Brexit is turning out to be even more hopeless and depressing than I feared it would be.
The leavers have torn my country apart.
Nope. There has never been a country called the UK. It is a Unitary State made up of four different countries. No one has touched your country -whichever one you live in.
I am with Pong on this one. I regard the UK as my country and it will be diminished if Scotland is no longer a part of it. I have been hanging around online today to see if any leavers would have the good grace to concede that they would have voted differently if they had thought that the end of the UK would be the result. Haven't seen one yet, but they must exist.
What I find odd is that everyone assumes Yes would win a second independence referendum. I think that's far from certain.
I was neutral on the last Sindref and I'll be neutral again. As a Brexiteer, however, every time this was used as a reason for voting Remain, I couldn't help but think "two birds, one stone."
"I couldn't help but think "two birds, one stone." ". Neutral, huh ?
They have a fucking good deal with the Barnett formula, but if they are so desperate to stay in the EU (if that's possible), then good luck to them. I really couldn't care and if that upsets Remainers, tough.
What price a greater degree of sympathy from the English?
I can only go with the conversations I have had today (anecdote alert!) but people in London seem much more sympathetic to the idea of Scots Indy than in 2014, because of Brexit.
Does that count for much, in a campaign? (I am not suggesting it does, merely courting opinion)
I've got a feeling everyone in Scotland who voted 'Yes' last time will still vote 'Yes', however some who voted 'No' due to economic fears will now vote 'Yes'. I can see 'Yes' winning because of this...
Currency (less so), and 3% deficit (The big one) are the two big hurdles I think. Long term Scotland sorting itself out to 3% is of course a good thing - but in the short term it means alot of actual austerity politics or big tax rises.
Brexit is turning out to be even more hopeless and depressing than I feared it would be.
The leavers have torn my country apart.
Nope. There has never been a country called the UK. It is a Unitary State made up of four different countries. No one has touched your country -whichever one you live in.
I am with Pong on this one. I regard the UK as my country and it will be diminished if Scotland is no longer a part of it. I have been hanging around online today to see if any leavers would have the good grace to concede that they would have voted differently if they had thought that the end of the UK would be the result. Haven't seen one yet, but they must exist.
I will feel more than a twinge of sadness if the Scots leave, but all Leavers would agree that if that's what they decide, no-one has a right to deny them.
The needs of the 8% should not outweigh those of the 92%. The Scots are not The Elect.
I hope everyone would agree they have the right to decide. One of the things I like about the UK is that it is the voluntary union between Scotland and England.
If the Scots truly want out because of our EU membership decision, then the Union is already dead. A referendum would merely ratify that.
I still think the nationalists will lose.
The psychological barrier has been broken so it will be less of a leap in the dark than previously. If I were Scots I would not be rushing to maintain the Union.
I think the likely prospect of the Tories in power for the foreseeable future is going to tip it in favour of them leaving.
Another thing to pin the blame on Jeremy Corbyn for!
What price a greater degree of sympathy from the English?
I can only go with the conversations I have had today (anecdote alert!) but people in London seem much more sympathetic to the idea of Scots Indy than in 2014, because of Brexit.
Does that count for much, in a campaign? (I am not suggesting it does, merely courting opinion)
If the English are more sympathetic to independence, that will make more Scots vote no.
I've got a feeling everyone in Scotland who voted 'Yes' last time will still vote 'Yes', however some who voted 'No' due to economic fears will now vote 'Yes'. I can see 'Yes' winning because of this...
Maybe, but with oil half it was in 2014, £18billion gone from loss of Barnet, Out of UK = out of EU and still no plans for a Scottish Currency or Central Bank, personally I'm not so sure.
One good thing to come out of today’s developments, Scottish polling is about to become interesting again.
Mr. Blue, there was a study in the late 80s or early 90s studying homophobic attitudes. Unsurprisingly, they were against gay rights as next of kin, adoption, marriage etc.
However, when primed with information that gay people opposed the extension of such rights to include themselves, the homophobes actually wanted gay rights to be increased.
What price a greater degree of sympathy from the English?
I can only go with the conversations I have had today (anecdote alert!) but people in London seem much more sympathetic to the idea of Scots Indy than in 2014, because of Brexit.
Does that count for much, in a campaign? (I am not suggesting it does, merely courting opinion)
If the English are more sympathetic to independence, that will make more Scots vote no.
I've got a feeling everyone in Scotland who voted 'Yes' last time will still vote 'Yes', however some who voted 'No' due to economic fears will now vote 'Yes'. I can see 'Yes' winning because of this...
I can see some people who thought the referendum was a good idea last time are now utterly sick of referendums, see huge problems with areas of public services that are devolved to Holyrood and will punish the SNP at the ballot box for being a single issue party.
If I was May, I'd be tempted to delay triggering A50 and make Scotland have their referendum on June 1. And then take it from there once we know their decision.
The problem with that is that last time a No vote was a vote for predictability and stability. You can't play that card if the Brexit plan isn't visible.
Doesn't quite roll off the tongue like 'Pound' or 'euro' does it? how many haggis will you get for one 'all in good time'?
I hope they don't make the same mistake as last time. Either Scot£ or Euro.
When some smartarse will say how bad the Euro is, the Scot reply should be : if it is good enough for Germany, France, Netherlands, Finland etc. , it should be good enough for Scotland.
or, if 200 nations in the world can have their own currency, then so can Scotland.
Fact: 2003 £1 = € 1.41. Today £1 = € 1.15.
SO if we had joined the Euro we would now be stuck in a seriously overvalued currency trying to sell into our largest market, England. Yeah, that would help.
Your reply encapsulates this country's problem. Our productivity is so low that the only way we can compete is by serial devaluations rather than investing to improve productivity.
I have worked with Germans for 31 years and I can honestly say we put in more hours than them. You will have difficulty getting hold of anyone after 12:00 on Fridays and after 4:00pm on most days. Yet official stats show they produce in 4 days what we do in 5.
Devaluation is our drug of choice. But it gives only temporary relief because the very thing that makes our products cheaper in the world markets also makes our imports dearer and whole cycle of increased costs start all over again making our exports gradually uncompetitive.
We blame the Euro because we will blame anything Euro. No one can explain why the exchange rates since the birth of the Euro has been:
1999 £1 = € 1.50. Today £1 = € 1.15
And, it is not interest rates that is propping up the Euro. Their interest rates are even lower than ours. The bond yields in Germany and France are actually negative. Yet people have faith in the currency despite Greece etc.
We go on about Greece. It is less than 1% of the EU GDP.
I know there are great issues of moment at the,er, moment but I only have eyes for Prestbury.
Day 1 at Cheltenham tomorrow and four probably to avoid as they may well be carrying my money (and very nice money it is too).
1.30: BUNK OFF EARLY 2.05: ROYAL CAVIAR (yes, I know ALTIOR probably wins but there are better 1/4 shots out there) 3.30: PETIT MOUCHOIR 4.10: VROUM VROUM NAG
The prices for the four currently with Hills are 11/2, 14/1, 7/1 and 11/4 so get a couple home in your Lucky 15 and you'll be happy.
I've got a feeling everyone in Scotland who voted 'Yes' last time will still vote 'Yes', however some who voted 'No' due to economic fears will now vote 'Yes'. I can see 'Yes' winning because of this...
I can see some people who thought the referendum was a good idea last time are now utterly sick of referendums, see huge problems with areas of public services that are devolved to Holyrood and will punish the SNP at the ballot box for being a single issue party.
Brutally punished in 2015 as post failed Indy ref the Scottish people recognised the SNP were irrelevant, brutally punished in 2016 as their irrelevance pro Indy playform was rejectd by 90% of the population and about to be punished again at the council elections.
I am pro Brexit but I am more pro embarrass the Tory government. Come on folks, support the Lords' ammendments...
I hope the pressure will be kept up to reform the Lords by the right wing press even after the bill is passed unamended through the upper chamber.
Agree. It's about time that Blair's Dirty Compromise House of Meh was put out of its misery.
Well I think we do need an upper chamber. Elected in thirds by multi member STV with 1 15 year term per lifetime would be my preffered option. But it is a nonsense as it is !
I've got a feeling everyone in Scotland who voted 'Yes' last time will still vote 'Yes', however some who voted 'No' due to economic fears will now vote 'Yes'. I can see 'Yes' winning because of this...
I can see some people who thought the referendum was a good idea last time are now utterly sick of referendums, see huge problems with areas of public services that are devolved to Holyrood and will punish the SNP at the ballot box for being a single issue party.
A gigantic amount of wishful thinking in that post.
I've got a feeling everyone in Scotland who voted 'Yes' last time will still vote 'Yes', however some who voted 'No' due to economic fears will now vote 'Yes'. I can see 'Yes' winning because of this...
I can see some people who thought the referendum was a good idea last time are now utterly sick of referendums, see huge problems with areas of public services that are devolved to Holyrood and will punish the SNP at the ballot box for being a single issue party.
Brutally punished in 2015 as post failed Indy ref the Scottish people recognised the SNP were irrelevant, brutally punished in 2016 as their irrelevance pro Indy playform was rejectd by 90% of the population and about to be punished again at the council elections.
wait - they had actually called a second referendum and set a date in 2015 and 2016 ?
@Alistair How do you propose Scotland gets to 3% deficit though ? As a new member the EU will expect Scotland to play to the rules in a way older members can fudge. Thems the breaks I think.
What price a greater degree of sympathy from the English?
I can only go with the conversations I have had today (anecdote alert!) but people in London seem much more sympathetic to the idea of Scots Indy than in 2014, because of Brexit.
Does that count for much, in a campaign? (I am not suggesting it does, merely courting opinion)
Does it reaffirm what we already know? Some remainers see Sindy as a second front?
It does seem a bit disingenuous, mind.
SIndy is, after all, Brexit's sister.
The emotional pull that drives Sturgeon and posters on here like TUD and MalcolmG is precisely the same one that Leavers had.
I would imagine that most Brexiteers can completely understand the emotional attraction the Scot Nats feel towards sovereignty and self governance. It's the details that look a little less persuasive as our ties are so much deeper.
I've got a feeling everyone in Scotland who voted 'Yes' last time will still vote 'Yes', however some who voted 'No' due to economic fears will now vote 'Yes'. I can see 'Yes' winning because of this...
The truth is that hardly anyone is coming to this question fresh. We had a two year campaign last time so there will be relatively few people changing their minds. I think there will be some Yes voters who will switch to No just as there are some going the other way. Most Scots are nationalist with a small 'n' but they are not necessarily SNP nationalists and some are very pro-Union, but from the perspective of Scotland's place in the world. The SNP have done a good job of claiming nationalism for itself, but it may not hold out for the next referendum. Some advice for Theresa May, assuming she wants to preserve the Union: don't try to divide and rule in Scotland. Long term it never works.
The fact that the economics are even worse than last time won't change many minds I suspect. The key motivations will be whether Scots collectively think they need to get on with it or put an end to it.
I am pro Brexit but I am more pro embarrass the Tory government. Come on folks, support the Lords' ammendments...
I hope the pressure will be kept up to reform the Lords by the right wing press even after the bill is passed unamended through the upper chamber.
Agree. It's about time that Blair's Dirty Compromise House of Meh was put out of its misery.
Well I think we do need an upper chamber. Elected in thirds by multi member STV with 1 15 year term per lifetime would be my preferred option. But it is a nonsense as it is !
I think on balance you are right that we need either a revising chamber or a chamber that has full legitimacy but in a different electoral way.
I've got to confess that I don't like any part of your proposed replacement. But we're on the same page for reform, which is a constructive start.
Your reply encapsulates this country's problem. Our productivity is so low that the only way we can compete is by serial devaluations rather than investing to improve productivity.
I have worked with Germans for 31 years and I can honestly say we put in more hours than them. You will have difficulty getting hold of anyone after 12:00 on Fridays and after 4:00pm on most days. Yet official stats show they produce in 4 days what we do in 5.
Devaluation is our drug of choice. But it gives only temporary relief because the very thing that makes our products cheaper in the world markets also makes our imports dearer and whole cycle of increased costs start all over again making our exports gradually uncompetitive.
Yep, productivity is the elephant in the room as far as "Global Britain" is concerned. One of the problems currently is that it's much easier to hire an extra pair of hands than to look at ways of improving productivity.
SO if we had joined the Euro we would now be stuck in a seriously overvalued currency trying to sell into our larges t market, England. Yeah, that would help.
Your reply encapsulates this country's problem. Our productivity is so low that the only way we can compete is by serial devaluations rather than investing to improve productivity.
I have worked with Germans for 31 years and I can honestly say we put in more hours than them. You will have difficulty getting hold of anyone after 12:00 on Fridays and after 4:00pm on most days. Yet official stats show they produce in 4 days what we do in 5.
Devaluation is our drug of choice. But it gives only temporary relief because the very thing that makes our products cheaper in the world markets also makes our imports dearer and whole cycle of increased costs start all over again making our exports gradually uncompetitive.
We blame the Euro because we will blame anything Euro. No one can explain why the exchange rates since the birth of the Euro has been:
1999 £1 = € 1.50. Today £1 = € 1.15
And, it is not interest rates that is propping up the Euro. Their interest rates are even lower than ours. The bond yields in Germany and France are actually negative. Yet people have faith in the currency despite Greece etc.
We go on about Greece. It is less than 1% of the EU GDP.
Productivity is a problem but what my post really shows is the utter chaos that would be caused by having different currencies in such deeply integrated economies as Scotland and England. One week Scots lamb is cheap the next it is not. It would hit Scotland, as the much smaller partner, much harder of course. It really is no solution at all. Of course the euro is fixed for Germany's interests , not Scotland.
Doesn't quite roll off the tongue like 'Pound' or 'euro' does it? how many haggis will you get for one 'all in good time'?
I hope they don't make the same mistake as last time. Either Scot£ or Euro.
When some smartarse will say how bad the Euro is, the Scot reply should be : if it is good enough for Germany, France, Netherlands, Finland etc. , it should be good enough for Scotland.
or, if 200 nations in the world can have their own currency, then so can Scotland.
Fact: 2003 £1 = € 1.41. Today £1 = € 1.15.
SO if we had joined the Euro we would now be stuck in a seriously overvalued currency trying to sell into our largest market, England. Yeah, that would help.
Your reply encapsulates this country's problem. Our productivity is so low that the only way we can compete is by serial devaluations rather than investing to improve productivity.
I have worked with Germans for 31 years and I can honestly say we put in more hours than them. You will have difficulty getting hold of anyone after 12:00 on Fridays and after 4:00pm on most days. Yet official stats show they produce in 4 days what we do in 5.
Devaluation is our drug of choice. But it gives only temporary relief because the very thing that makes our products cheaper in the world markets also makes our imports dearer and whole cycle of increased costs start all over again making our exports gradually uncompetitive.
We blame the Euro because we will blame anything Euro. No one can explain why the exchange rates since the birth of the Euro has been:
1999 £1 = € 1.50. Today £1 = € 1.15
And, it is not interest rates that is propping up the Euro. Their interest rates are even lower than ours. The bond yields in Germany and France are actually negative. Yet people have faith in the currency despite Greece etc.
We go on about Greece. It is less than 1% of the EU GDP.
Yet, over the period, growth in GDP per head, and in employment, have been better here than in most of the EZ.
Doesn't quite roll off the tongue like 'Pound' or 'euro' does it? how many haggis will you get for one 'all in good time'?
I hope they don't make the same mistake as last time. Either Scot£ or Euro.
When some smartarse will say how bad the Euro is, the Scot reply should be : if it is good enough for Germany, France, Netherlands, Finland etc. , it should be good enough for Scotland.
or, if 200 nations in the world can have their own currency, then so can Scotland.
Fact: 2003 £1 = € 1.41. Today £1 = € 1.15.
SO if we had joined the Euro we would now be stuck in a seriously overvalued currency trying to sell into our largest market, England. Yeah, that would help.
Your reply encapsulates this country's problem. Our productivity is so low that the only way we can compete is by serial devaluations rather than investing to improve productivity.
SNIP
1999 £1 = € 1.50. Today £1 = € 1.15
And, it is not interest rates that is propping up the Euro. Their interest rates are even lower than ours. The bond yields in Germany and France are actually negative. Yet people have faith in the currency despite Greece etc.
We go on about Greece. It is less than 1% of the EU GDP.
A great post. Yes, our crap productivity is not the fault of our European colleagues. Our dismal return per hour worked is mostly due to our managers' inability to take and stick to decisions; a endless meeting culture in which discussion is not a means to an end but an end in itself; an inability to delegate; and an obsession with being present rather than productive. The amount of companies that load in meetings on Mondays so the first 20% of the week is certain to be unproductive is a national disease. Shall we have a meeting to discuss that? Can I suggest 5pm for an hour?
The entry into the workforce of the Millennials, who largely think it is all bollocks and challenge it with their behaviour (which is more like European behaviour), should overturn the problem eventually, but it will take time to work through the system.
I don't IndyRef II is a done deal for the SNP. In particular what happens if they lose again ?
It's not a done deal. However the SNP exists to make Scotland independent. It's inconceivable that they wouldn't take a chance to go for independence even if the odds seem against it. They might delay for a few years if they believed tactically they would get a better result later. I don't think that calculation applies at this time.
As a connoisseur of human hypocrisy, can I just thank in advance all the Brexiteers who whined incessantly about Project Fear, scaremongering & bullying and who are about to provide a Michelin star repast when they approvingly quote & rt every rehashed threat, warning & intervention on behalf of the Union. It's going to be reet tasty.
Doesn't quite roll off the tongue like 'Pound' or 'euro' does it? how many haggis will you get for one 'all in good time'?
I hope they don't make the same mistake as last time. Either Scot£ or Euro.
When some smartarse will say how bad the Euro is, the Scot reply should be : if it is good enough for Germany, France, Netherlands, Finland etc. , it should be good enough for Scotland.
or, if 200 nations in the world can have their own currency, then so can Scotland.
Fact: 2003 £1 = € 1.41. Today £1 = € 1.15.
SO if we had joined the Euro we would now be stuck in a seriously overvalued currency trying to sell into our largest market, England. Yeah, that would help.
Your reply encapsulates this country's problem. Our productivity is so low that the only way we can compete is by serial devaluations rather than investing to improve productivity.
SNIP
1999 £1 = € 1.50. Today £1 = € 1.15
And, it is not interest rates that is propping up the Euro. Their interest rates are even lower than ours. The bond yields in Germany and France are actually negative. Yet people have faith in the currency despite Greece etc.
We go on about Greece. It is less than 1% of the EU GDP.
A great post. Yes, our crap productivity is not the fault of our European colleagues. Our dismal return per hour worked is mostly due to our managers' inability to take and stick to decisions; a endless meeting culture in which discussion is not a means to an end but an end in itself; an inability to delegate; and an obsession with being present rather than productive. The amount of companies that load in meetings on Mondays so the first 20% of the week is certain to be unproductive is a national disease. Shall we have a meeting to discuss that? Can I suggest 5pm for an hour?
The entry into the workforce of the Millennials, who largely think it is all bollocks and challenge it with their behaviour (which is more like European behaviour), should overturn the problem eventually, but it will take time to work through the system.
I am pro Brexit but I am more pro embarrass the Tory government. Come on folks, support the Lords' ammendments...
I hope the pressure will be kept up to reform the Lords by the right wing press even after the bill is passed unamended through the upper chamber.
Agree. It's about time that Blair's Dirty Compromise House of Meh was put out of its misery.
Well I think we do need an upper chamber. Elected in thirds by multi member STV with 1 15 year term per lifetime would be my preffered option. But it is a nonsense as it is !
God, no. It'll be even worse at doing it's task than it is now. We need to look at its role as a revising chamber and make changes to allow it to perform that task better.
The main problem with the HoL isn't the numbers, or the hereditaries. It's the fact it's been stuffed to the gunnels with political has-beens and hanger-on with no real expertise who will follow their party whip and not appy any intelligence to their role. Shami being a classic recent example. Moving to an elected house will just make that situation worse. Better to get rid of it.
However I understand that my 'house of experts' idea hasn't got widespread acceptance.
It was noticeable just now that after the division on the meaningful vote amendment was announced, there was a row of Tory MPs who didn't get up. I'm pretty sure Nicky Morgan was one; maybe the whips have persuaded them to abstain rather than oppose?
It was noticeable just now that after the division on the meaningful vote amendment was announced, there was a row of Tory MPs who didn't get up. I'm pretty sure Nicky Morgan was one; maybe the whips have persuaded them to abstain rather than oppose?
Would that be the Nicky Morgan who thought she might be in the running for the leadership last year?
Doesn't quite roll off the tongue like 'Pound' or 'euro' does it? how many haggis will you get for one 'all in good time'?
I hope they don't make the same mistake as last time. Either Scot£ or Euro.
When some smartarse will say how bad the Euro is, the Scot reply should be : if it is good enough for Germany, France, Netherlands, Finland etc. , it should be good enough for Scotland.
or, if 200 nations in the world can have their own currency, then so can Scotland.
Fact: 2003 £1 = € 1.41. Today £1 = € 1.15.
SO if we had joined the Euro we would now be stuck in a seriously overvalued currency trying to sell into our largest market, England. Yeah, that would help.
Your reply encapsulates this country's problem. Our productivity is so low that the only way we can compete is by serial devaluations rather than investing to improve productivity.
I have worked with Germans for 31 years and I can honestly say we put in more hours than them. You will have difficulty getting hold of anyone after 12:00 on Fridays and after 4:00pm on most days. Yet official stats show they produce in 4 days what we do in 5.
Devaluation is our drug of choice. But it gives only temporary relief because the very thing that makes our products cheaper in the world markets also makes our imports dearer and whole cycle of increased costs start all over again making our exports gradually uncompetitive.
We blame the Euro because we will blame anything Euro. No one can explain why the exchange rates since the birth of the Euro has been:
1999 £1 = € 1.50. Today £1 = € 1.15
And, it is not interest rates that is propping up the Euro. Their interest rates are even lower than ours. The bond yields in Germany and France are actually negative. Yet people have faith in the currency despite Greece etc.
We go on about Greece. It is less than 1% of the EU GDP.
Yet, over the period, growth in GDP per head, and in employment, have been better here than in most of the EZ.
I am pro Brexit but I am more pro embarrass the Tory government. Come on folks, support the Lords' ammendments...
I hope the pressure will be kept up to reform the Lords by the right wing press even after the bill is passed unamended through the upper chamber.
Agree. It's about time that Blair's Dirty Compromise House of Meh was put out of its misery.
Well I think we do need an upper chamber. Elected in thirds by multi member STV with 1 15 year term per lifetime would be my preffered option. But it is a nonsense as it is !
God, no. It'll be even worse at doing it's task than it is now. We need to look at its role as a revising chamber and make changes to allow it to perform that task better.
The main problem with the HoL isn't the numbers, or the hereditaries. It's the fact it's been stuffed to the gunnels with political has-beens and hanger-on with no real expertise who will follow their party whip and not appy any intelligence to their role. Shami being a classic recent example. Moving to an elected house will just make that situation worse. Better to get rid of it.
However I understand that my 'house of experts' idea hasn't got widespread acceptance.
A good start would be to preclude anyone who had served in the HoC.
It was noticeable just now that after the division on the meaningful vote amendment was announced, there was a row of Tory MPs who didn't get up. I'm pretty sure Nicky Morgan was one; maybe the whips have persuaded them to abstain rather than oppose?
Watched that row and it looks like they are the rebels but not sure if they are going to vote or abstain
Pre Brexit – 32% Post Brexit – 19% Not in the next 20 years – 25% Never – 24%
TCTC
Nov 2016: Yougov Scotland
Referendum Pre Brexit - 39% No Referendum Pre Brexit - 61%
The most pro-referendum voters are under 35, C2DE etc.
It very much looks to me that Sturgeon has picked the wrong fight at the wrong time and is relying on the wrong demographic for support. Additionally,
SNP Unionists as a proportion of the SNP vote as:
16% Ipsos Mori 22% Panelbase 25% Yougov
If this action alienates this element of the SNP vote we could start to see the SNP on sub 40% fairly soon.
Sturgeon has to fight now. Scotland seeking independence once the UK has left the EU means that they'd have to agree a slightly painful exit from the UK and a slightly painful joining of the EU. There's just a chance that Scotland can sail through the battles and find itself in clear waters.
The numbers don't look promising for her. All the polls are essentially saying she only has the least reliable voters.
Strategically, I really think they should be backing Brexit, then Anglosphere trade - and then going for Indy once it is all in place around 2025 whilst building the necessary separatist structures through staged devolution.
Impatience is going to be her undoing.
Patience lost the Quebec separatist the referendum.
They only lost by less than 2% and I doubt a referendum in 1984 or 1985 would have been much different
I've got a feeling everyone in Scotland who voted 'Yes' last time will still vote 'Yes', however some who voted 'No' due to economic fears will now vote 'Yes'. I can see 'Yes' winning because of this...
The truth is that hardly anyone is coming to this question fresh. We had a two year campaign last time so there will be relatively few people changing their minds. I think there will be some Yes voters who will switch to No just as there are some going the other way. Most Scots are nationalist with a small 'n' but they are not necessarily SNP nationalists and some are very pro-Union, but from the perspective of Scotland's place in the world. The SNP have done a good job of claiming nationalism for itself, but it may not hold out for the next referendum. Some advice for Theresa May, assuming she wants to preserve the Union: don't try to divide and rule in Scotland. Long term it never works.
The fact that the economics are even worse than last time won't change many minds I suspect. The key motivations will be whether Scots collectively think they need to get on with it or put an end to it.
The repetition of this argument is depressing down here in London, God knows how it must feel in Scotland. I wonder if Sturgeon could lose simply because people can't bear the endless constitutional turmoil and horrible, divisive arguing.
Because if she wins the divorce with England will take ten years of bickering. Again, making Brexit look like a walk in Regent's Park.
I am genuinely sorry that the amendment on EU citizens was defeated. It was a great chance to take the moral highground and set down a standard for the way we were going to behave in the negotiations. I know many people think this weakens our negotiating stance but I think in the long run it would make the whole process of Brexit far better.
Doesn't quite roll off the tongue like 'Pound' or 'euro' does it? how many haggis will you get for one 'all in good time'?
I hope they don't make the same mistake as last time. Either Scot£ or Euro.
When some smartarse will say how bad the Euro is, the Scot reply should be : if it is good enough for Germany, France, Netherlands, Finland etc. , it should be good enough for Scotland.
or, if 200 nations in the world can have their own currency, then so can Scotland.
Fact: 2003 £1 = € 1.41. Today £1 = € 1.15.
SO if we had joined the Euro we would now be stuck in a seriously overvalued currency trying to sell into our largest market, England. Yeah, that would help.
Your reply encapsulates this country's problem. Our productivity is so low that the only way we can compete is by serial devaluations rather than investing to improve productivity.
SNIP
1999 £1 = € 1.50. Today £1 = € 1.15
And, it is not interest rates that is propping up the Euro. Their interest rates are even lower than ours. The bond yields in Germany and France are actually negative. Yet people have faith in the currency despite Greece etc.
We go on about Greece. It is less than 1% of the EU GDP.
A great post. Yes, our crap productivity is not the fault of our European colleagues. Our dismal return per hour worked is mostly due to our managers' inability to take and stick to decisions; a endless meeting culture in which discussion is not a means to an end but an end in itself; an inability to delegate; and an obsession with being present rather than productive. The amount of companies that load in meetings on Mondays so the first 20% of the week is certain to be unproductive is a national disease. Shall we have a meeting to discuss that? Can I suggest 5pm for an hour?
The entry into the workforce of the Millennials, who largely think it is all bollocks and challenge it with their behaviour (which is more like European behaviour), should overturn the problem eventually, but it will take time to work through the system.
Spot on. I have ben saying the same for years. Our management class has been pretty poor for decades and that has nothing to do with Europe.
I am genuinely sorry that the amendment on EU citizens was defeated. It was a great chance to take the moral highground and set down a standard for the way we were going to behave in the negotiations. I know many people think this weakens our negotiating stance but I think in the long run it would make the whole process of Brexit far better.
I know there are great issues of moment at the,er, moment but I only have eyes for Prestbury.
Day 1 at Cheltenham tomorrow and four probably to avoid as they may well be carrying my money (and very nice money it is too).
1.30: BUNK OFF EARLY 2.05: ROYAL CAVIAR (yes, I know ALTIOR probably wins but there are better 1/4 shots out there) 3.30: PETIT MOUCHOIR 4.10: VROUM VROUM NAG
The prices for the four currently with Hills are 11/2, 14/1, 7/1 and 11/4 so get a couple home in your Lucky 15 and you'll be happy.
Right lets hope a few of those land, have gone for a £2 e/w lucky 15 with Ladbrokes and £1 win Lucky with Hills. £10 to win on Vroum Vroum mag @ 3-1 (Hills), and £10 E/W @ 11-4 (1/4 odds place with Ladbrokes).
So that is £120 in total. Might lose it all, but better than buying 120 lottery tickets at least :> !
Comments
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39260176
The needs of the 8% should not outweigh those of the 92%. The Scots are not The Elect.
Strategically, I really think they should be backing Brexit, then Anglosphere trade - and then going for Indy once it is all in place around 2025 whilst building the necessary separatist structures through staged devolution.
Impatience is going to be her undoing.
I was neutral on the last Sindref and I'll be neutral again. As a Brexiteer, however, every time this was used as a reason for voting Remain, I couldn't help but think "two birds, one stone."
But it is not a done deal for the SNP. In particular what happens if they lose again ?
My biggest question to supporters of independence is what tax rises and/or spending cuts are you prepared to make in order to reduce Scotland's deficit to 3%.
I believe the EU will be receptive to the Scots remaining/rejoining if they can meet this hurdle (Of course they will have to adopt the Euro as well), the 3% issue is the big one for me though. They will not want another Greece like situation.
But just how will this 3% be met ? A Scotland outside both the EU and the UK is surely an economic disaster.
And why should it be 'good grace to concede' something that is meaningless for me. I campaigned for Scottish Independence last time round on the basis that I wanted Scotland as a good neighbour and friend rather than a reluctant servant.
I still think the nationalists will lose.
I can't see us having another woolly referendum in the UK.
Its really double or quits stuff, fair play to Sturgeon for pushing all her chips into the middle with a middle pair.
I can only go with the conversations I have had today (anecdote alert!) but people in London seem much more sympathetic to the idea of Scots Indy than in 2014, because of Brexit.
Does that count for much, in a campaign? (I am not suggesting it does, merely courting opinion)
Long term Scotland sorting itself out to 3% is of course a good thing - but in the short term it means alot of actual austerity politics or big tax rises.
No idea yet. No is the value bet I guess!
Suppose us leaving the EU works wonderfully. Then what's the problem?
Suppose us leaving the EU is dreadful. Why, then, seek to reproduce the dreadfulness on a four-to-fivefold scale by leaving the UK?
Another thing to pin the blame on Jeremy Corbyn for!
Again my question to the nats, how will you meet the EU's 3% target.
One good thing to come out of today’s developments, Scottish polling is about to become interesting again.
However, when primed with information that gay people opposed the extension of such rights to include themselves, the homophobes actually wanted gay rights to be increased.
Can't see value in the Scindy odds.
I have worked with Germans for 31 years and I can honestly say we put in more hours than them. You will have difficulty getting hold of anyone after 12:00 on Fridays and after 4:00pm on most days. Yet official stats show they produce in 4 days what we do in 5.
Devaluation is our drug of choice. But it gives only temporary relief because the very thing that makes our products cheaper in the world markets also makes our imports dearer and whole cycle of increased costs start all over again making our exports gradually uncompetitive.
We blame the Euro because we will blame anything Euro. No one can explain why the exchange rates since the birth of the Euro has been:
1999 £1 = € 1.50. Today £1 = € 1.15
And, it is not interest rates that is propping up the Euro. Their interest rates are even lower than ours. The bond yields in Germany and France are actually negative. Yet people have faith in the currency despite Greece etc.
We go on about Greece. It is less than 1% of the EU GDP.
I know there are great issues of moment at the,er, moment but I only have eyes for Prestbury.
Day 1 at Cheltenham tomorrow and four probably to avoid as they may well be carrying my money (and very nice money it is too).
1.30: BUNK OFF EARLY
2.05: ROYAL CAVIAR (yes, I know ALTIOR probably wins but there are better 1/4 shots out there)
3.30: PETIT MOUCHOIR
4.10: VROUM VROUM NAG
The prices for the four currently with Hills are 11/2, 14/1, 7/1 and 11/4 so get a couple home in your Lucky 15 and you'll be happy.
'Little England'
'Think Small'
I think England needs a slogan.
Advisory?
Who will be the next Gina Miller??
"We're going to score one more than you"?
It does seem a bit disingenuous, mind.
SIndy is, after all, Brexit's sister.
The emotional pull that drives Sturgeon and posters on here like TUD and MalcolmG is precisely the same one that Leavers had.
I would imagine that most Brexiteers can completely understand the emotional attraction the Scot Nats feel towards sovereignty and self governance. It's the details that look a little less persuasive as our ties are so much deeper.
The fact that the economics are even worse than last time won't change many minds I suspect. The key motivations will be whether Scots collectively think they need to get on with it or put an end to it.
I've got to confess that I don't like any part of your proposed replacement. But we're on the same page for reform, which is a constructive start.
The entry into the workforce of the Millennials, who largely think it is all bollocks and challenge it with their behaviour (which is more like European behaviour), should overturn the problem eventually, but it will take time to work through the system.
They just get more attractive
The main problem with the HoL isn't the numbers, or the hereditaries. It's the fact it's been stuffed to the gunnels with political has-beens and hanger-on with no real expertise who will follow their party whip and not appy any intelligence to their role. Shami being a classic recent example. Moving to an elected house will just make that situation worse. Better to get rid of it.
However I understand that my 'house of experts' idea hasn't got widespread acceptance.
Surely if Scottish Parliament requests it then T May will have to agree, however reluctantly. And it must now be almost certain they will request it.
£10 to win on Vroum Vroum mag @ 3-1 (Hills), and £10 E/W @ 11-4 (1/4 odds place with Ladbrokes).
So that is £120 in total. Might lose it all, but better than buying 120 lottery tickets at least :> !