I am genuinely sorry that the amendment on EU citizens was defeated. It was a great chance to take the moral highground and set down a standard for the way we were going to behave in the negotiations. I know many people think this weakens our negotiating stance but I think in the long run it would make the whole process of Brexit far better.
Totally agree.
It is pretty shameful that 300+ MPs think effectively threatening 3m with deportation – a position that was too extreme for Nigel Farage – is an any way acceptable.
They're not threatening anyone with deportation.
In that case why not support the amendment?
One of the reasons.
One of the tory MP's said if the amendment was voted through ,the EU nationals who shouldn't be given the right to stay like EU nationals in brit prisons wouldn't have been able to be sent home.
4000 apparently in brit prisons.
Three million EU citizens here – most of them making important contributions to our companies, schools and civic life. You are supporting a position that was too extreme for Nigel Farage.
I am when it's real life for me pal.
It's real life alright – I'd say about 40% of my son's friends at school are affected. And about 25% of my colleagues, clients and suppliers.
What price a greater degree of sympathy from the English?
I can only go with the conversations I have had today (anecdote alert!) but people in London seem much more sympathetic to the idea of Scots Indy than in 2014, because of Brexit.
Does that count for much, in a campaign? (I am not suggesting it does, merely courting opinion)
What may be much more influential is that there'd be no agreement on how to fight a referendum, unlike in 2014. If Corbyn still leads Labour he'll make the Nats arguments for them, a turbocharged version of his dire Brexit performance. This time he'll not just refuse to stand on a platform with May but directly go on about how awful she is while it's plainly apparent that he's about as useful to anyone looking to get rid of her as a eunuch in a sperm bank. The best thing the In side could do is lock him in his allotment shed. May will have to fight it as a chance to remain in a newly confident, liberated Britain, but short of a miracle Brexit deal or a climbdown on a harder Brexit that's not an argument even some of her own cabinet's hearts will be in. Both Scottish Lab and the Scottish Tories have leaders at odds with their rUK equivalents, with the former being in an absolute state, and a lack of consensus as to how to fight a referendum after the failure of Stronger In Europe and you've got a recipe for chaos.
Plus, you're right among rUK remainers on left and right there is some sympathy with motive if not practicality - that the country Scots were asked to remain in no longer exists anyway. Combined with referendum fatigue, the sense that it's Brexiteers' mess, they can be the ones to try and campaign their way out of it, and you've got a sense of apathy.
Anecdotally most people I have spoken to post EU ref either think: a) the scots are off and who can blame them, or b) that they already had a referendum and lost, we are the UK and voted to leave the EU and well that's it end of etc.
b) is a fallacy because the EU referendum is evidently a material change in circumstances and of course the Scottish - as with the remainers - have been pretty much ignored by the government in preparing for Brexit.
I don't want to break up the UK and it saddens me deeply, but so does Brexit and the know nothing little englanders who have taken control of this once great country. Its up to the Scottish people to make a decision in their own best interest.
I am genuinely sorry that the amendment on EU citizens was defeated. It was a great chance to take the moral highground and set down a standard for the way we were going to behave in the negotiations. I know many people think this weakens our negotiating stance but I think in the long run it would make the whole process of Brexit far better.
Totally agree.
It is pretty shameful that 300+ MPs think effectively threatening 3m with deportation – a position that was too extreme for Nigel Farage – is an any way acceptable.
They're not threatening anyone with deportation.
In that case why not support the amendment?
One of the reasons.
One of the tory MP's said if the amendment was voted through ,the EU nationals who shouldn't be given the right to stay like EU nationals in brit prisons wouldn't have been able to be sent home.
4000 apparently in brit prisons.
Three million EU citizens here – most of them making important contributions to our companies, schools and civic life. You are supporting a position that was too extreme for Nigel Farage.
How ?
HMG has aready said it is prepared to respect the rights of resident EU citizens only EU intransigence is stopping this being put to bed
Garage says guarantee their rights. You do not. You and the government are holding a position that is too extreme for Nigel Farage. That is a simple statement of fact I'm afraid.
Mr. Jessop, is Hooke the chap whom Newton caused to be seriously neglected by history?
Anyway, I'm afraid I must be off.
Yep. Hooke was the foundation of the early Royal Society, and had massive arguments with Newton. After Hooke died, Newton became president of the Royal Society. He used that position to downplay the contributions of others, e.g. Hooke and Leibniz.
There is even a story that Newton had the one portrait of Hooke burnt.
Hooke was much more of a polymath than Newton: not only was he a great experimenter and scientist; he was a great architect and friend of Wren. In fact, some of Wren's churches in London were probably designed by Hooke.
Unfortunately, he was not as good a mathematician as Newton, and the maths was needed to prove the theories.
The House of Commons has just voted to deny the British people any further say over Brexit.
I'm genuinely and literally unsure I have the energy for this any more. Brexit. Joxit. Fuxit. Indyref. TRUMP.
There's just been too much politics. I'm tired of arguing. It's gonna be the same Brexit arguments for the next two years, and exactly the same indyref arguments for the next three/four years.
As FF43 says, will anyone change their minds? In Scotland? In the UK?
If there is one thing that would make me regret my Brexit vote it is the arse-aching, scrotum-numbing tedium of it all. And the waste of time and energy.
I am close to taking a vow of silence. I have books to write, daughters to raise, money to make, women to chase, fruitlessly or otherwise. I may retreat to the personal. Enuff.
And the great news for you is that you can afford not to give a fuck. Lucky you.
What price a greater degree of sympathy from the English?
I can only go with the conversations I have had today (anecdote alert!) but people in London seem much more sympathetic to the idea of Scots Indy than in 2014, because of Brexit.
Does that count for much, in a campaign? (I am not suggesting it does, merely courting opinion)
What may be much more influential is that there'd be no agreement on how to fight a referendum, unlike in 2014. If Corbyn still leads Labour he'll make the Nats arguments for them, a turbocharged version of his dire Brexit performance. This time he'll not just refuse to stand on a platform with May but directly go on about how awful she is while it's plainly apparent that he's about as useful to anyone looking to get rid of her as a eunuch in a sperm bank. The best thing the In side could do is lock him in his allotment shed. May will have to fight it as a chance to remain in a newly confident, liberated Britain, but short of a miracle Brexit deal or a climbdown on a harder Brexit that's not an argument even some of her own cabinet's hearts will be in. Both Scottish Lab and the Scottish Tories have leaders at odds with their rUK equivalents, with the former being in an absolute state, and a lack of consensus as to how to fight a referendum after the failure of Stronger In Europe and you've got a recipe for chaos.
Plus, you're right among rUK remainers on left and right there is some sympathy with motive if not practicality - that the country Scots were asked to remain in no longer exists anyway. Combined with referendum fatigue, the sense that it's Brexiteers' mess, they can be the ones to try and campaign their way out of it, and you've got a sense of apathy.
Anecdotally most people I have spoken to post EU ref either think: a) the scots are off and who can blame them, or b) that they already had a referendum and lost, we are the UK and voted to leave the EU and well that's it end of etc.
b) is a fallacy because the EU referendum is evidently a material change in circumstances and of course the Scottish - as with the remainers - have been pretty much ignored by the government in preparing for Brexit.
I don't want to break up the UK and it saddens me deeply, but so does Brexit and the know nothing little englanders who have taken control of this once great country. Its up to the Scottish people to make a decision in their own best interest.
The Little Englanders wanted a Little England. And so it shall come to pass.
I am genuinely sorry that the amendment on EU citizens was defeated. It was a great chance to take the moral highground and set down a standard for the way we were going to behave in the negotiations. I know many people think this weakens our negotiating stance but I think in the long run it would make the whole process of Brexit far better.
Totally agree.
It is pretty shameful that 300+ MPs think effectively threatening 3m with deportation – a position that was too extreme for Nigel Farage – is an any way acceptable.
They're not threatening anyone with deportation.
In that case why not support the amendment?
One of the reasons.
One of the tory MP's said if the amendment was voted through ,the EU nationals who shouldn't be given the right to stay like EU nationals in brit prisons wouldn't have been able to be sent home.
4000 apparently in brit prisons.
Three million EU citizens here – most of them making important contributions to our companies, schools and civic life. You are supporting a position that was too extreme for Nigel Farage.
I am when it's real life for me pal.
It's real life alright – I'd say about 40% of my son's friends at school are affected. And about 25% of my colleagues, clients and suppliers.
Well I might not have to put up with me and my family life's been threatened by a EU national who lives over the road from me,the guy doesn't work but he's good at baby making.
The House of Commons has just voted to deny the British people any further say over Brexit.
They can vote on the terms at the next general election, they have already voted to Leave
So we will have a general election before the Brexit deal is signed?
No after, if the British people want to rejoin the single market and restore all uncontrolled free movement they can vote LD
That is not the same as having any say over the Brexit deal, of course. We are now irrelevant to what is decided.
The British people voted for Brexit, they had their say then, if they now think they actually want to stay in the EU in all but name they can easily vote in a LD government, keep free movement and stay in the EEA and the EU would gladly welcome them back into the fold
The House of Commons has just voted to deny the British people any further say over Brexit.
I'm genuinely and literally unsure I have the energy for this any more. Brexit. Joxit. Fuxit. Indyref. TRUMP.
There's just been too much politics. I'm tired of arguing. It's gonna be the same Brexit arguments for the next two years, and exactly the same indyref arguments for the next three/four years.
As FF43 says, will anyone change their minds? In Scotland? In the UK?
If there is one thing that would make me regret my Brexit vote it is the arse-aching, scrotum-numbing tedium of it all. And the waste of time and energy.
I am close to taking a vow of silence. I have books to write, daughters to raise, money to make, women to chase, fruitlessly or otherwise. I may retreat to the personal. Enuff.
How can it be tedious? This is the birth of the independent English nation, history is literally unfolding every day.
The House of Commons has just voted to deny the British people any further say over Brexit.
I'm genuinely and literally unsure I have the energy for this any more. Brexit. Joxit. Fuxit. Indyref. TRUMP.
There's just been too much politics. I'm tired of arguing. It's gonna be the same Brexit arguments for the next two years, and exactly the same indyref arguments for the next three/four years.
As FF43 says, will anyone change their minds? In Scotland? In the UK?
If there is one thing that would make me regret my Brexit vote it is the arse-aching, scrotum-numbing tedium of it all. And the waste of time and energy.
I am close to taking a vow of silence. I have books to write, daughters to raise, money to make, women to chase, fruitlessly or otherwise. I may retreat to the personal. Enuff.
And the great news for you is that you can afford not to give a fuck. Lucky you.
Ugh. Your posts have become so budget. This crap could have come from Bobajob.
I am genuinely sorry that the amendment on EU citizens was defeated. It was a great chance to take the moral highground and set down a standard for the way we were going to behave in the negotiations. I know many people think this weakens our negotiating stance but I think in the long run it would make the whole process of Brexit far better.
Totally agree.
It is pretty shameful that 300+ MPs think effectively threatening 3m with deportation – a position that was too extreme for Nigel Farage – is an any way acceptable.
They're not threatening anyone with deportation.
In that case why not support the amendment?
One of the reasons.
One of the tory MP's said if the amendment was voted through ,the EU nationals who shouldn't be given the right to stay like EU nationals in brit prisons wouldn't have been able to be sent home.
4000 apparently in brit prisons.
Three million EU citizens here – most of them making important contributions to our companies, schools and civic life. You are supporting a position that was too extreme for Nigel Farage.
How ?
HMG has aready said it is prepared to respect the rights of resident EU citizens only EU intransigence is stopping this being put to bed
Garage says guarantee their rights. You do not. You and the government are holding a position that is too extreme for Nigel Farage. That is a simple statement of fact I'm afraid.
The government can solve this problem simply by creating a simple route to permanent residence for EEA (not just EU) citizens already here after they have settled for a reasonable amount of time. They don't need to make up new nationality laws on the hoof and undermine their negotiating position in leaving the EU.
The House of Commons has just voted to deny the British people any further say over Brexit.
I'm genuinely and literally unsure I have the energy for this any more. Brexit. Joxit. Fuxit. Indyref. TRUMP.
There's just been too much politics. I'm tired of arguing. It's gonna be the same Brexit arguments for the next two years, and exactly the same indyref arguments for the next three/four years.
As FF43 says, will anyone change their minds? In Scotland? In the UK?
If there is one thing that would make me regret my Brexit vote it is the arse-aching, scrotum-numbing tedium of it all. And the waste of time and energy.
I am close to taking a vow of silence. I have books to write, daughters to raise, money to make, women to chase, fruitlessly or otherwise. I may retreat to the personal. Enuff.
And the great news for you is that you can afford not to give a fuck. Lucky you.
Ugh. Your posts have become so budget. This crap could have come from Bobajob.
If Indyref 2 happens, and Scotland votes for independence, I'll be devastated, but not to the extent of regretting Brexit. Better by far a free England than a subject Britain.
That said, I think this is a mistake by Sturgeon, albeit one she had little choice but to make. The message has to be that Scotland has to vote heavily against this just to send a message that the SNP can't keep doing this to the country every time the wind changes.
I think that is the problem. People did not think that they were actually voting for the dissolution of the UK and a newly independent (little) england, but that is actually what they are going to actually get. In fact it was an easily forseeable consequence of voting to leave the EU, but people just didn't see it at the time.
I am not at all sure that indyref 2 will end in a resounding defeat. The nationalists will still vote for independence as that is their lifes mission. They just need to bring a small minority of no/remain voters with them. Not difficult to see who is going to have the momentum here.
HMG has aready said it is prepared to respect the rights of resident EU citizens only EU intransigence is stopping this being put to bed
I am coming to the conclusion that Theresa May is insincere about wanting to wrap up residence negotiations. Most of the actions to take are national ones and are not the competence of the EU. She could put the UK's house in order with a few process changes that make residence more straightforward for those that are already eligible or mostly eligible. The UK as the party leaving the EU could work with other EU States to streamline residence applications for British expats.
She won't do that because EU citizens in the UK are "negotiating capital" in the words of Amber Rudd. With a weak negotiating hand, Mrs May hopes to trade residence for EU citizens for other concessions. UK expats will be left out to dry along with British fishermen, as they always have been, and now also farmers.
The House of Commons has just voted to deny the British people any further say over Brexit.
I'm genuinely and literally unsure I have the energy for this any more. Brexit. Joxit. Fuxit. Indyref. TRUMP.
There's just been too much politics. I'm tired of arguing. It's gonna be the same Brexit arguments for the next two years, and exactly the same indyref arguments for the next three/four years.
As FF43 says, will anyone change their minds? In Scotland? In the UK?
If there is one thing that would make me regret my Brexit vote it is the arse-aching, scrotum-numbing tedium of it all. And the waste of time and energy.
I am close to taking a vow of silence. I have books to write, daughters to raise, money to make, women to chase, fruitlessly or otherwise. I may retreat to the personal. Enuff.
And the great news for you is that you can afford not to give a fuck. Lucky you.
Ugh. Your posts have become so budget. This crap could have come from Bobajob.
The House of Commons has just voted to deny the British people any further say over Brexit.
I'm genuinely and literally unsure I have the energy for this any more. Brexit. Joxit. Fuxit. Indyref. TRUMP.
There's just been too much politics. I'm tired of arguing. It's gonna be the same Brexit arguments for the next two years, and exactly the same indyref arguments for the next three/four years.
As FF43 says, will anyone change their minds? In Scotland? In the UK?
If there is one thing that would make me regret my Brexit vote it is the arse-aching, scrotum-numbing tedium of it all. And the waste of time and energy.
I am close to taking a vow of silence. I have books to write, daughters to raise, money to make, women to chase, fruitlessly or otherwise. I may retreat to the personal. Enuff.
And the great news for you is that you can afford not to give a fuck. Lucky you.
Ugh. Your posts have become so budget. This crap could have come from Bobajob.
Compassionate Conservatism.
I consider being 'insulted' by a crank who promoted the notion that the Jo Cox killing was a false flag operation to be a great compliment.
I am genuinely sorry that the amendment on EU citizens was defeated. It was a great chance to take the moral highground and set down a standard for the way we were going to behave in the negotiations. I know many people think this weakens our negotiating stance but I think in the long run it would make the whole process of Brexit far better.
Totally agree.
It is pretty shameful that 300+ MPs think effectively threatening 3m with deportation – a position that was too extreme for Nigel Farage – is an any way acceptable.
They're not threatening anyone with deportation.
In that case why not support the amendment?
One of the reasons.
One of the tory MP's said if the amendment was voted through ,the EU nationals who shouldn't be given the right to stay like EU nationals in brit prisons wouldn't have been able to be sent home.
4000 apparently in brit prisons.
Three million EU citizens here – most of them making important contributions to our companies, schools and civic life. You are supporting a position that was too extreme for Nigel Farage.
I am when it's real life for me pal.
It's real life alright – I'd say about 40% of my son's friends at school are affected. And about 25% of my colleagues, clients and suppliers.
Well I might not have to put up with me and my family life's been threatened by a EU national who lives over the road from me,the guy doesn't work but he's good at baby making.
If your neighbour is threatening your family, that is awful, and I sympathise. Your neighbour is guilty of a serious crime. I'm not sure what his nationality has to do with it.
I am genuinely sorry that the amendment on EU citizens was defeated. It was a great chance to take the moral highground and set down a standard for the way we were going to behave in the negotiations. I know many people think this weakens our negotiating stance but I think in the long run it would make the whole process of Brexit far better.
Totally agree.
It is pretty shameful that 300+ MPs think effectively threatening 3m with deportation – a position that was too extreme for Nigel Farage – is an any way acceptable.
They're not threatening anyone with deportation.
In that case why not support the amendment?
One of the reasons.
One of the tory MP's said if the amendment was voted through ,the EU nationals who shouldn't be given the right to stay like EU nationals in brit prisons wouldn't have been able to be sent home.
4000 apparently in brit prisons.
Three million EU citizens here – most of them making important contributions to our companies, schools and civic life. You are supporting a position that was too extreme for Nigel Farage.
I am when it's real life for me pal.
It's real life alright – I'd say about 40% of my son's friends at school are affected. And about 25% of my colleagues, clients and suppliers.
Well I might not have to put up with me and my family life's been threatened by a EU national who lives over the road from me,the guy doesn't work but he's good at baby making.
If your neighbour is threatening your family, that is awful, and I sympathise. Your neighbour is guilty of a serious crime. I'm not sure what his nationality has to do with it.
That's what I thought when i told the police,the police laughed it off ,the reason he was drunk.
The situation is tense between us.
Bollocks what nationality had to do with it,it had everything to do with it,it was the custom where they come from what the argument started over was what he told the police.
The House of Commons has just voted to deny the British people any further say over Brexit.
I'm genuinely and literally unsure I have the energy for this any more. Brexit. Joxit. Fuxit. Indyref. TRUMP.
There's just been too much politics. I'm tired of arguing. It's gonna be the same Brexit arguments for the next two years, and exactly the same indyref arguments for the next three/four years.
As FF43 says, will anyone change their minds? In Scotland? In the UK?
If there is one thing that would make me regret my Brexit vote it is the arse-aching, scrotum-numbing tedium of it all. And the waste of time and energy.
I am close to taking a vow of silence. I have books to write, daughters to raise, money to make, women to chase, fruitlessly or otherwise. I may retreat to the personal. Enuff.
Comments
a) the scots are off and who can blame them, or
b) that they already had a referendum and lost, we are the UK and voted to leave the EU and well that's it end of etc.
b) is a fallacy because the EU referendum is evidently a material change in circumstances and of course the Scottish - as with the remainers - have been pretty much ignored by the government in preparing for Brexit.
I don't want to break up the UK and it saddens me deeply, but so does Brexit and the know nothing little englanders who have taken control of this once great country. Its up to the Scottish people to make a decision in their own best interest.
There is even a story that Newton had the one portrait of Hooke burnt.
Hooke was much more of a polymath than Newton: not only was he a great experimenter and scientist; he was a great architect and friend of Wren. In fact, some of Wren's churches in London were probably designed by Hooke.
Unfortunately, he was not as good a mathematician as Newton, and the maths was needed to prove the theories.
I am not at all sure that indyref 2 will end in a resounding defeat. The nationalists will still vote for independence as that is their lifes mission. They just need to bring a small minority of no/remain voters with them. Not difficult to see who is going to have the momentum here.
She won't do that because EU citizens in the UK are "negotiating capital" in the words of Amber Rudd. With a weak negotiating hand, Mrs May hopes to trade residence for EU citizens for other concessions. UK expats will be left out to dry along with British fishermen, as they always have been, and now also farmers.
The situation is tense between us.
Bollocks what nationality had to do with it,it had everything to do with it,it was the custom where they come from what the argument started over was what he told the police.