politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betting on whether or not we’ll have another EU referendum bef
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The late Mr Howard Marks found it so!DavidL said:
No but it sounds a lot more exciting than being a lawyer.SouthamObserver said:
I never said otherwise. Have you tried being a purveyor of marijuana-based products in the US single market, or even a gun-maker for that matter? ;-)DavidL said:
I think it is time that you gave up on this one Southam. The fact is that the Single Market remains highly imperfect for anything other than physical goods.SouthamObserver said:
Yes, but they are all subsidiary to EU law. There are different laws in different US states, too. Anyway, I accept that from the perspective of an author and for many others Europe can and should be treated as a collection of different markets. Many do the same with the US, of course. We definitely see California and New York very differently to Texas and Florida, for example.SeanT said:
It's . The UK does not.SouthamObserver said:
The case.SeanT said:
But that's just not true in any sensible interpretation of "single market". They operate as 28 (or so) very different markets, FOR MESouthamObserver said:
Yep - the deals are all subject to European law. Before the single market, for example, the period of copyright authors enjoyed was different in different in European countries. Now it has been harmonised (to the German standard - life plus 70 years).david_herdson said:
Though that's market.SeanT said:
Not for me it isn't. I sell translation rights for my books to each European nation and/or language individually. And very lucrative they are, I am happy to say. Danke Deutschland.SouthamObserver said:
Whether you like it or not, the EU is a single market.John_M said:
I prefer The rest are all deficits.Dromedary said:
"Partner" indeed. That's not a partnership. And Britain exports FAR MORE to the rest of the EU than it does to the US.John_M said:Yes, I'll repeat what I posted last night. Those who think May should have temporised about visiting our #1 military partner, #1 intelligence partner, #1 bilateral investment partner and #1 export market are fuckwits halfwits.
Britain's no.1 (excuse my British usage instead of "#") export market is EU27.
So for me The Single Market is anything but.
So even the laws are crucially and significantly different across the EU.0 -
There would have to be customs checks, even if zero rated for tarrifs, but I think that will be the case for manufactured and agricultural goods. There may be quotas though, particularly for the latter.DavidL said:
Not so. It would be possible to have no tariffs with the EU but have arrangements by which tariffs were payable on non EU imports that were being re exported.surbiton said:
I still cannot imagine why many people have this view. It is theoretically not possible. Nothing to do with us or the Germans or anyone else. It is the moment we decided we would do our own trade deals that decided it.DavidL said:
I agree. If only the EU had stopped there.... I still hope we will have a tariff free arrangement with them.John_M said:
As I'm the poster that dragged us into this rather unlovely blind alley, I'd just like to reiterate that the Single Market in goods was probably the EEC's greatest achievement. I'll be very sorry to see us leave it.DavidL said:
I think it is time that you gave up on this one Southam. The fact is that the Single Market remains highly imperfect for anything other than physical goods.SouthamObserver said:SeanT said:SouthamObserver said:SeanT said:SouthamObserver said:david_herdson said:
Though that's market.SeanT said:
Not for me it isn't. I sell translation rights for my books to each European nation and/or language individually. And very lucrative they are, I am happy to say. Danke Deutschland.SouthamObserver said:
Whether you like it or not, the EU is a single market.John_M said:
I prefer The rest are all deficits.Dromedary said:
"Partner" indeed. That's not a partnership. And Britain exports FAR MORE to the rest of the EU than it does to the US.John_M said:Yes, I'll repeat what I posted last night. Those who think May should have temporised about visiting our #1 military partner, #1 intelligence partner, #1 bilateral investment partner and #1 export market are fuckwits halfwits.
Britain's no.1 (excuse my British usage instead of "#") export market is EU27.
Just as the Internet isn't some amorphous blob (if you want to know why the world0 -
False dichotomy. The alternative will be a trade deal with the EU. Whether that is significantly worse than we had in the EU we will have to wait to see. I think it will be less good but the trade off of the other benefits of being out remains favourable.FF43 said:
The alternative to the imperfect Single Market is no common trading system at all. Which is where the EU is at across the board. Do you prefer a glass half-full (or half-empty) or no glass at all?DavidL said:
I think it is time that you gave up on this one Southam. The fact is that the Single Market remains highly imperfect for anything other than physical goods.0 -
What frightens me - and I am happy to admit it - is that we will indeed start to see where you are born determining where you are allowed to go and what you are allowed to do. It already happens with regards to citizenship, but birth-place is taking it further. I am also happy to admit that it does worry me greatly that we have seen the world's leading power deny entry to people who have made their homes there, paid taxes there and committed no crimes there. That looks like the start of a very slippery slope to me and I am not sure it is what white working class people want. I guess we will find out.glw said:
Right. And what really frightens the opposition is not that Trump will be awful, but that he might be good enough that more Trumps are elected. We could see a complete overturning of the way politics has been done since at least the 60s.felix said:All of the outrage in the world now does nothing to excuse the failure of the establishment in American, and maybe European politics too, to show as much interest in the white/lower W/C voters for far too long as it has done for others. The plain fact is that this group of voters has been shamelessly let down for too long and will continue to elect people like Trump until their concerns are addressed.
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Federer !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!0
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If the late Emperor Hirohito could be welcomed ..........felix said:
Golly - an almost sensible post. Although despite being an idiot Trump does not fit the dictionary definition of despot.foxinsoxuk said:
I am not signing, as I am rather looking forward to Trumps visit and the maximum opportunity to embarass the pussy grabber in chief. The Queen will do her duty and be polite to him, she has done so for any number of foreign despots over the years.dr_spyn said:55,555 and rising.
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Amazing.0
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If I could be bothered I would find your posts and embarrass you. But they have probably been deleted by Mike thanks to their unacceptable content. Just stop bothering me with your weird obsessions and I will happily leave you in peace.isam said:
No, I didn't lie, I told the exact truthJobabob said:
No it wasn't true as you were banned for wishing a poster dead - the way you have 'explained' your behaviour above is such a tortuous stretching of the truth it's effectively a lie I'm afraid. I came back to this forum because you had gone - now you are back and obsessively stalking me again I may have to reconsider.isam said:
Everything I just posted was true, there is no selective memory there.Jobabob said:@isam
You have selective memory syndrome but don't worry because I'm tired of raking up old ground with you. Happy to debate you civilly in future but do me a favour and lay off the weird kisses and such - it's just odd.
I have said several times that The Last Boy Scout, Boba Fett and of course Bobajob were all my personas - and I have also queried why it mattered so much to you (or anyone else)? I would have thought that the scouting links between them made it obvious but obviously not! As it is, as a few people (not just you) cared so deeply that one anonymous poster had an alter ego as, erm, another anonymous poster I came back as Jobabob - the most boringly uncryptic name imaginable!
The silly aliases didn't matter that much in the scheme of things, it was just irritating, and not that funny. I wondered why anyone would be bothered.
I'll do as I like, you can respond or not, down to you
Do what you like0 -
Apart from the fact that the lowest income voters voted heavily for Clinton. And those in higher incomes heavily for Trump. Apart from that OK.felix said:
While I accept the rationale I'd have struggled voting for Clinton. Anyway the issue is moot. Trump won on the backs of a vast number of rust-belt white [ and other lower class] voters who have found a voice. I guess many will be happy with his clumsy order because they feel, rightly or wrongly that the threat is there. All of the outrage in the world now does nothing to excuse the failure of the establishment in American, and maybe European politics too, to show as much interest in the white/lower W/C voters for far too long as it has done for others. The plain fact is that this group of voters has been shamelessly let down for too long and will continue to elect people like Trump until their concerns are addressed.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - as I said last night, this is absolutely not a left or right thing. You do not have to be a hand-wringing lefty to believe that it is wrong to prevent people who have made their lives in the US, paid US taxes and committed no crimes in the US from re-entering the country, or to discriminate against the citizens of any country because of where they happened to be born.Richard_Tyndall said:
100% agree. If I had been voting in the States I would have held my nose and voted Clinton. She wouldn't have made anything better and would probably have made things moderately worse for many people. But that would still have been better than Trump.Slackbladder said:
Yes, it's very depressing, which makes it all more important that those 'on the right' which don't agree with Trump make that clear.state_go_away said:This whole travel ban imposed by Trump is rather depressing isn' it?
I am not a lefty and have always admired and supported the USA and deep down the reason I have done all my life is not that it is ultra capitalist but that free market ethos so ingrained means that it actually makes it easier for immigration , easier to believe you can go as an immigrant and make it as an individual , free of government interference and petty rules.
The man was coming across as stupid, but he's turning dangerous.0 -
It is very sad because the current twitter storm from all the great and good [I see Kay Burley and Jeremy Vine from our unbiased News outlets joined in last night] simply confirms the exclusion felt by upwards of maybe 30% + of voters already.glw said:
Right. And what really frightens the opposition is not that Trump will be awful, but that he might be good enough that more Trumps are elected. We could see a complete overturning of the way politics has been done since at least the 60s.felix said:All of the outrage in the world now does nothing to excuse the failure of the establishment in American, and maybe European politics too, to show as much interest in the white/lower W/C voters for far too long as it has done for others. The plain fact is that this group of voters has been shamelessly let down for too long and will continue to elect people like Trump until their concerns are addressed.
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Like most who accuse others of 'virtue signalling' (which is an idiotic, childish phrase by the way) you are doing so yourself, by signalling other virtues. That's one of the many reasons why the phrase is stupid.dr_spyn said:
Think away - you are wrong.SouthamObserver said:glw said:
Right. And what really frightens the opposition is not that Trump will be awful, but that he might be good enough that more Trumps are elected. We could see a complete overturning of the way politics has been done since at least the 60s.felix said:All of the outrage in the world now does nothing to excuse the failure of the establishment in American, and maybe European politics too, to show as much interest in the white/lower W/C voters for far too long as it has done for others. The plain fact is that this group of voters has been shamelessly let down for too long and will continue to elect people like Trump until their concerns are addressed.
Nope - it looks like clear virtue signalling to me.dr_spyn said:
Nonsenese - I'm not signalling that, and you know it.SouthamObserver said:
Yes - you cannot stand virtue signallers who are signalling virtues you do not like. Your virtues are different to theirs. You are signalling that.dr_spyn said:
Nonsense - I can't stand Trump, and I can't stand virtue signallers. Last night's fuss over why hasn't the PM condemned Trump for his EO, was a load of piss and wind.SouthamObserver said:
You, of course, would prefer to be associated with other virtues. Hence your post.dr_spyn said:now 38,500 have shown their virtue.
Trump so far hasn't tortured any Muslims, unlike Ergodan who has cracked heads, and sat back as lynching were carried out in Istanbul.0 -
https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/825675722593333248SouthamObserver said:What frightens me - and I am happy to admit it - is that we will indeed start to see where you are born determining where you are allowed to go and what you are allowed to do.
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Customs checks oin EU imports; I am trying to imagine the situation at Felixstowe and/or Dover!foxinsoxuk said:
There would have to be customs checks, even if zero rated for tarrifs, but I think that will be the case for manufactured and agricultural goods. There may be quotas though, particularly for the latter.DavidL said:
Not so. It would be possible to have no tariffs with the EU but have arrangements by which tariffs were payable on non EU imports that were being re exported.surbiton said:
I still cannot imagine why many people have this view. It is theoretically not possible. Nothing to do with us or the Germans or anyone else. It is the moment we decided we would do our own trade deals that decided it.DavidL said:
I agree. If only the EU had stopped there.... I still hope we will have a tariff free arrangement with them.John_M said:
As I'm the poster that dragged us into this rather unlovely blind alley, I'd just like to reiterate that the Single Market in goods was probably the EEC's greatest achievement. I'll be very sorry to see us leave it.DavidL said:
I think it is time that you gave up on this one Southam. The fact is that the Single Market remains highly imperfect for anything other than physical goods.SouthamObserver said:SeanT said:SouthamObserver said:SeanT said:SouthamObserver said:david_herdson said:
Though that's market.SeanT said:
Not for me it isn't. I sell translation rights for my books to each European nation and/or language individually. And very lucrative they are, I am happy to say. Danke Deutschland.SouthamObserver said:
Whether you like it or not, the EU is a single market.John_M said:
I prefer The rest are all deficits.Dromedary said:
"Partner" indeed. That's not a partnership. And Britain exports FAR MORE to the rest of the EU than it does to the US.John_M said:Yes, I'll repeat what I posted last night. Those who think May should have temporised about visiting our #1 military partner, #1 intelligence partner, #1 bilateral investment partner and #1 export market are fuckwits halfwits.
Britain's no.1 (excuse my British usage instead of "#") export market is EU27.
Just as the Internet isn't some amorphous blob (if you want to know why the world0 -
Alternative facts!dixiedean said:
Apart from the fact that the lowest income voters voted heavily for Clinton.felix said:
While I accept the rationale I'd have struggled voting for Clinton. Anyway the issue is moot. Trump won on the backs of a vast number of rust-belt white [ and other lower class] voters who have found a voice. I guess many will be happy with his clumsy order because they feel, rightly or wrongly that the threat is there. All of the outrage in the world now does nothing to excuse the failure of the establishment in American, and maybe European politics too, to show as much interest in the white/lower W/C voters for far too long as it has done for others. The plain fact is that this group of voters has been shamelessly let down for too long and will continue to elect people like Trump until their concerns are addressed.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - as I said last night, this is absolutely not a left or right thing. You do not have to be a hand-wringing lefty to believe that it is wrong to prevent people who have made their lives in the US, paid US taxes and committed no crimes in the US from re-entering the country, or to discriminate against the citizens of any country because of where they happened to be born.Richard_Tyndall said:
100% agree. If I had been voting in the States I would have held my nose and voted Clinton. She wouldn't have made anything better and would probably have made things moderately worse for many people. But that would still have been better than Trump.Slackbladder said:
Yes, it's very depressing, which makes it all more important that those 'on the right' which don't agree with Trump make that clear.state_go_away said:This whole travel ban imposed by Trump is rather depressing isn' it?
I am not a lefty and have always admired and supported the USA and deep down the reason I have done all my life is not that it is ultra capitalist but that free market ethos so ingrained means that it actually makes it easier for immigration , easier to believe you can go as an immigrant and make it as an individual , free of government interference and petty rules.
The man was coming across as stupid, but he's turning dangerous.0 -
Stop trying to imply (putting it mildly) that I did or said things that I blatantly didn't! Find them and embarrass me if you wantJobabob said:
If I could be bothered I would find your posts and embarrass you. But they have probably been deleted by Mike thanks to their unacceptable content. Just stop bothering me with your weird obsessions and I will happily leave you in peace.isam said:
No, I didn't lie, I told the exact truthJobabob said:
No it wasn't true as you were banned for wishing a poster dead - the way you have 'explained' your behaviour above is such a tortuous stretching of the truth it's effectively a lie I'm afraid. I came back to this forum because you had gone - now you are back and obsessively stalking me again I may have to reconsider.isam said:
Everything I just posted was true, there is no selective memory there.Jobabob said:@isam
You have selective memory syndrome but don't worry because I'm tired of raking up old ground with you. Happy to debate you civilly in future but do me a favour and lay off the weird kisses and such - it's just odd.
I have said several times that The Last Boy Scout, Boba Fett and of course Bobajob were all my personas - and I have also queried why it mattered so much to you (or anyone else)? I would have thought that the scouting links between them made it obvious but obviously not! As it is, as a few people (not just you) cared so deeply that one anonymous poster had an alter ego as, erm, another anonymous poster I came back as Jobabob - the most boringly uncryptic name imaginable!
The silly aliases didn't matter that much in the scheme of things, it was just irritating, and not that funny. I wondered why anyone would be bothered.
I'll do as I like, you can respond or not, down to you
Do what you like
There are no weird obsessions, if you debate on a public forum you are open to have your points questioned, the weirdness is being too cowardly to debate
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Rather less false a dichotomy than to imply the Single Market is imperfect and therefore has no value. My point.DavidL said:
False dichotomy. The alternative will be a trade deal with the EU. Whether that is significantly worse than we had in the EU we will have to wait to see. I think it will be less good but the trade off of the other benefits of being out remains favourable.FF43 said:
The alternative to the imperfect Single Market is no common trading system at all. Which is where the EU is at across the board. Do you prefer a glass half-full (or half-empty) or no glass at all?DavidL said:
I think it is time that you gave up on this one Southam. The fact is that the Single Market remains highly imperfect for anything other than physical goods.0 -
Surbiton won't be happy until we return to the days of voting qualifications which exclude the lumpen masses.John_M said:
Really? I thought the split for ABC1s was 56:44 - perhaps I'm mis-remembering. Or perhaps you're speaking of academia, in which case, point cheerfully conceded.surbiton said:
As it should be. The educated / intelligentsia voted Remain overwhelmingly. They will remind the rest for a long time to come.malcolmg said:
Brexit will be to blame for everything for years, it will be used and abused as cover for all sorts of shaftings.Charles said:
He's wrong. They were going anyway. Brexit is just a convenient excuseScott_P said:@SophyRidgeSky: The Polish Deputy Prime Minister tells me financial services jobs are already starting to move from the UK to Poland due to Brexit #ridge
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Continued on page 94.Jobabob said:
Like most who accuse others of 'virtue signalling' (which is an idiotic, childish phrase by the way) you are doing so yourself, by signalling other virtues. That's one of the many reasons why the phrase is stupid.dr_spyn said:
Think away - you are wrong.SouthamObserver said:glw said:
Right. And what really frightens the opposition is not that Trump will be awful, but that he might be good enough that more Trumps are elected. We could see a complete overturning of the way politics has been done since at least the 60s.felix said:All of the outrage in the world now does nothing to excuse the failure of the establishment in American, and maybe European politics too, to show as much interest in the white/lower W/C voters for far too long as it has done for others. The plain fact is that this group of voters has been shamelessly let down for too long and will continue to elect people like Trump until their concerns are addressed.
Nope - it looks like clear virtue signalling to me.dr_spyn said:
Nonsenese - I'm not signalling that, and you know it.SouthamObserver said:
Yes - you cannot stand virtue signallers who are signalling virtues you do not like. Your virtues are different to theirs. You are signalling that.dr_spyn said:
Nonsense - I can't stand Trump, and I can't stand virtue signallers. Last night's fuss over why hasn't the PM condemned Trump for his EO, was a load of piss and wind.SouthamObserver said:
You, of course, would prefer to be associated with other virtues. Hence your post.dr_spyn said:now 38,500 have shown their virtue.
Trump so far hasn't tortured any Muslims, unlike Ergodan who has cracked heads, and sat back as lynching were carried out in Istanbul.0 -
Thanks, that's very useful.TheWhiteRabbit said:
This leaves the government well placed to meet, or exceed, the OBR's forecast.TheWhiteRabbit said:
Total borrowing in the previous whole financial year was £75.4bn. Absent any revisions, that total for this year to date would have been £69.1bn; but that has cumulatively been revised to £63.8bn, i.e. the total reduction has been almost twice what the initial figures each month if taken in stone would have suggested.
At this point last year, borrowing in the year to date was £74.5bn; at the end of the year that had risen to £75.4bn, an increase of £0.9bn (as January receipts counterbalances February and March spending). A simple addition of £0.9bn to the £63.8bn so far this year would give a figure of £64.7bn, compared to the latest OBR forecast of £68.2bn. That's a comfortable performance.
There are reasons to be even more optimistic (vis a vis the forecast at least!). We know that borrowing is down about 7.5% so far this year so we could expect the next three months - net - to be flat, or return a small surplus. I haven't had the opportunity to assess whether that 7.5% is increased receipts or lower spending, though I suspect the latter.
Equally, revisions between January and March last year - stripping out the effect of bringing housing associations onto the books) lowered the borrowing in the then year to date by £4.4bn. Equally the last few months this time around have seen substantial downwards revisions.
However it does seem unlikely that the government will hit was the OBR's forecast used to be for this year, which was £55.5 billion. Nevertheless without a full budget in April, there will be effectively another six months before the chancellor has an opportunity to spend everything that he has saved.
The 2016/17 borrowing predictions had been steadily rising before Hammond Autumn Statement.
2015 Mar 39bn
2015 Jul 43bn
2015 Nov 50bn
2016 Mar 55bn
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Glad Federer won. Won't see many, maybe any, Federer-Nadal finals, but they've been extremely good for tennis.0
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One of my new words learned solely due to the extended cri de coeur from my intellectual betters is 'epistocracy'. I wonder if we'll ever see it implemented. Hopefully, not in my lifetime.felix said:
Surbiton won't be happy until we return to the days of voting qualifications which exclude the lumpen masses.John_M said:
Really? I thought the split for ABC1s was 56:44 - perhaps I'm mis-remembering. Or perhaps you're speaking of academia, in which case, point cheerfully conceded.surbiton said:
As it should be. The educated / intelligentsia voted Remain overwhelmingly. They will remind the rest for a long time to come.malcolmg said:
Brexit will be to blame for everything for years, it will be used and abused as cover for all sorts of shaftings.Charles said:
He's wrong. They were going anyway. Brexit is just a convenient excuseScott_P said:@SophyRidgeSky: The Polish Deputy Prime Minister tells me financial services jobs are already starting to move from the UK to Poland due to Brexit #ridge
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Property owners would still have voted for Brexit and Trump, although of course you cannot now restrict the franchise unless a majority of the electorate vote to do sofelix said:
Surbiton won't be happy until we return to the days of voting qualifications which exclude the lumpen masses.John_M said:
Really? I thought the split for ABC1s was 56:44 - perhaps I'm mis-remembering. Or perhaps you're speaking of academia, in which case, point cheerfully conceded.surbiton said:
As it should be. The educated / intelligentsia voted Remain overwhelmingly. They will remind the rest for a long time to come.malcolmg said:
Brexit will be to blame for everything for years, it will be used and abused as cover for all sorts of shaftings.Charles said:
He's wrong. They were going anyway. Brexit is just a convenient excuseScott_P said:@SophyRidgeSky: The Polish Deputy Prime Minister tells me financial services jobs are already starting to move from the UK to Poland due to Brexit #ridge
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Provided the imported tariff coming into the UK would not be lower than the same product coming into the EU.DavidL said:
Not so. It would be possible to have no tariffs with the EU but have arrangements by which tariffs were payable on non EU imports that were being re exported.surbiton said:
I still cannot imagine why many people have this view. It is theoretically not possible. Nothing to do with us or the Germans or anyone else. It is the moment we decided we would do our own trade deals that decided it.DavidL said:
I agree. If only the EU had stopped there.... I still hope we will have a tariff free arrangement with them.John_M said:
.DavidL said:
I think it is time that you gave up on this one Southam. The fact is that the Single Market remains highly imperfect for anything other than physical goods.SouthamObserver said:SeanT said:SouthamObserver said:SeanT said:SouthamObserver said:david_herdson said:
Though that's market.SeanT said:
Not for me it isn't. I sell translation rights for my books to each European nation and/or language individually. And very lucrative they are, I am happy to say. Danke Deutschland.SouthamObserver said:
Whether you like it or not, the EU is a single market.John_M said:
I prefer The rest are all deficits.Dromedary said:
"Partner" indeed. That's not a partnership. And Britain exports FAR MORE to the rest of the EU than it does to the US.John_M said:Yes, I'll repeat what I posted last night. Those who think May should have temporised about visiting our #1 military partner, #1 intelligence partner, #1 bilateral investment partner and #1 export market are fuckwits halfwits.
Britain's no.1 (excuse my British usage instead of "#") export market is EU27.
Of course, that means we get the Single Market for free. Do you think our friends are that gullible ?
Remember, the talk just before and after June. The EU will role out the red carpet to keep us in the single market. Apparently, BMW will make them do so.
No one hears about that anymore. We may have overplayed our hands.0 -
Agreed. It is an idiotic phrase. Who, involved in a discussion or even a slanging-match, wants to communicate the idea that their own values and attitudes are utterly without virtue?Jobabob said:
Like most who accuse others of 'virtue signalling' (which is an idiotic, childish phrase by the way) you are doing so yourself, by signalling other virtues. That's one of the many reasons why the phrase is stupid.dr_spyn said:
Think away - you are wrong.SouthamObserver said:glw said:
Right. And what really frightens the opposition is not that Trump will be awful, but that he might be good enough that more Trumps are elected. We could see a complete overturning of the way politics has been done since at least the 60s.felix said:All of the outrage in the world now does nothing to excuse the failure of the establishment in American, and maybe European politics too, to show as much interest in the white/lower W/C voters for far too long as it has done for others. The plain fact is that this group of voters has been shamelessly let down for too long and will continue to elect people like Trump until their concerns are addressed.
Nope - it looks like clear virtue signalling to me.dr_spyn said:
Nonsenese - I'm not signalling that, and you know it.SouthamObserver said:
Yes - you cannot stand virtue signallers who are signalling virtues you do not like. Your virtues are different to theirs. You are signalling that.dr_spyn said:
Nonsense - I can't stand Trump, and I can't stand virtue signallers. Last night's fuss over why hasn't the PM condemned Trump for his EO, was a load of piss and wind.SouthamObserver said:
You, of course, would prefer to be associated with other virtues. Hence your post.dr_spyn said:now 38,500 have shown their virtue.
Trump so far hasn't tortured any Muslims, unlike Ergodan who has cracked heads, and sat back as lynching were carried out in Istanbul.
Satan?0 -
Ahem - Trump won the votes in the states he needed on the backs of w/c voters. The longer you turn your back on them the more 'Trumps' you will get. His election campaign very cleverly focussed on the votes he needed - the fact that Hilary got her extra votes in places like NY and California doesn't alter that nor increase her EC college vote to anywhere near that achieved by Trump.dixiedean said:
Apart from the fact that the lowest income voters voted heavily for Clinton. And those in higher incomes heavily for Trump. Apart from that OK.felix said:
While I accept the rationale I'd have struggled voting for Clinton. Anyway the issue is moot. Trump won on the backs of a vast number of rust-belt white [ and other lower class] voters who have found a voice. I guess many will be happy with his clumsy order because they feel, rightly or wrongly that the threat is there. All of the outrage in the world now does nothing to excuse the failure of the establishment in American, and maybe European politics too, to show as much interest in the white/lower W/C voters for far too long as it has done for others. The plain fact is that this group of voters has been shamelessly let down for too long and will continue to elect people like Trump until their concerns are addressed.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - as I said last night, this is absolutely not a left or right thing. You do not have to be a hand-wringing lefty to believe that it is wrong to prevent people who have made their lives in the US, paid US taxes and committed no crimes in the US from re-entering the country, or to discriminate against the citizens of any country because of where they happened to be born.Richard_Tyndall said:
100% agree. If I had been voting in the States I would have held my nose and voted Clinton. She wouldn't have made anything better and would probably have made things moderately worse for many people. But that would still have been better than Trump.Slackbladder said:
Yes, it's very depressing, which makes it all more important that those 'on the right' which don't agree with Trump make that clear.state_go_away said:This whole travel ban imposed by Trump is rather depressing isn' it?
I am not a lefty and have always admired and supported the USA and deep down the reason I have done all my life is not that it is ultra capitalist but that free market ethos so ingrained means that it actually makes it easier for immigration , easier to believe you can go as an immigrant and make it as an individual , free of government interference and petty rules.
The man was coming across as stupid, but he's turning dangerous.0 -
New to me too. Love it.John_M said:
One of my new words learned solely due to the extended cri de coeur from my intellectual betters is 'epistocracy'. I wonder if we'll ever see it implemented. Hopefully, not in my lifetime.felix said:
Surbiton won't be happy until we return to the days of voting qualifications which exclude the lumpen masses.John_M said:
Really? I thought the split for ABC1s was 56:44 - perhaps I'm mis-remembering. Or perhaps you're speaking of academia, in which case, point cheerfully conceded.surbiton said:
As it should be. The educated / intelligentsia voted Remain overwhelmingly. They will remind the rest for a long time to come.malcolmg said:
Brexit will be to blame for everything for years, it will be used and abused as cover for all sorts of shaftings.Charles said:
He's wrong. They were going anyway. Brexit is just a convenient excuseScott_P said:@SophyRidgeSky: The Polish Deputy Prime Minister tells me financial services jobs are already starting to move from the UK to Poland due to Brexit #ridge
0 -
I guess Satan sees extreme vice as a virtue so even he is a virtue signaller of sorts.Dromedary said:
Agreed. It is an idiotic phrase. Who, involved in a discussion or even a slanging-match, wants to communicate the idea that their own values and attitudes are utterly without virtue?Jobabob said:
Like most who accuse others of 'virtue signalling' (which is an idiotic, childish phrase by the way) you are doing so yourself, by signalling other virtues. That's one of the many reasons why the phrase is stupid.dr_spyn said:
Think away - you are wrong.SouthamObserver said:glw said:
Right. And what really frightens the opposition is not that Trump will be awful, but that he might be good enough that more Trumps are elected. We could see a complete overturning of the way politics has been done since at least the 60s.felix said:All of the outrage in the world now does nothing to excuse the failure of the establishment in American, and maybe European politics too, to show as much interest in the white/lower W/C voters for far too long as it has done for others. The plain fact is that this group of voters has been shamelessly let down for too long and will continue to elect people like Trump until their concerns are addressed.
Nope - it looks like clear virtue signalling to me.dr_spyn said:
Nonsenese - I'm not signalling that, and you know it.SouthamObserver said:
Yes - you cannot stand virtue signallers who are signalling virtues you do not like. Your virtues are different to theirs. You are signalling that.dr_spyn said:
Nonsense - I can't stand Trump, and I can't stand virtue signallers. Last night's fuss over why hasn't the PM condemned Trump for his EO, was a load of piss and wind.SouthamObserver said:
You, of course, would prefer to be associated with other virtues. Hence your post.dr_spyn said:now 38,500 have shown their virtue.
Trump so far hasn't tortured any Muslims, unlike Ergodan who has cracked heads, and sat back as lynching were carried out in Istanbul.
Satan?0 -
Mr. Felix, likewise. I checked the meaning. Mildly disappointed it didn't mean 'rule by bishops'.0
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Indeed - - but then I think he'd support extra votes for the big city dwellers and the 'epistocracy'!HYUFD said:
Property owners would still have voted for Brexit and Trump, although of course you cannot now restrict the franchise unless a majority of the electorate vote to do sofelix said:
Surbiton won't be happy until we return to the days of voting qualifications which exclude the lumpen masses.John_M said:
Really? I thought the split for ABC1s was 56:44 - perhaps I'm mis-remembering. Or perhaps you're speaking of academia, in which case, point cheerfully conceded.surbiton said:
As it should be. The educated / intelligentsia voted Remain overwhelmingly. They will remind the rest for a long time to come.malcolmg said:
Brexit will be to blame for everything for years, it will be used and abused as cover for all sorts of shaftings.Charles said:
He's wrong. They were going anyway. Brexit is just a convenient excuseScott_P said:@SophyRidgeSky: The Polish Deputy Prime Minister tells me financial services jobs are already starting to move from the UK to Poland due to Brexit #ridge
0 -
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If Trump repellent as he is can win, after essentially hijacking a political party, then some other maverick without the baggage surely has at least a similar chance of doing so. If Trump does even moderately well I think we might see other maverick candidates. It's interesting that we have already seen quite a few calls for non-politicians to enter the race in 2020 as opposition to Trump. Political parties might simply end up as electoral vehicles for big egos.felix said:It is very sad because the current twitter storm from all the great and good [I see Kay Burley and Jeremy Vine from our unbiased News outlets joined in last night] simply confirms the exclusion felt by upwards of maybe 30% + of voters already.
0 -
Or an alternative view..Jobabob said:
Like most who accuse others of 'virtue signalling' (which is an idiotic, childish phrase by the way) you are doing so yourself, by signalling other virtues. That's one of the many reasons why the phrase is stupid.
https://twitter.com/matthaig1/status/825672552815149056
Personally when I see anyone using 'virtue signalling', 'outrage bus', 'snowflake' etc as if those terms are valid critiques of opposing views, it's a super fast shortcut for popping them in the fuckwit bag.0 -
It would create a lot of jobs!!!!!!!!! The TUC will be happy. Also Border Force.foxinsoxuk said:
There would have to be customs checks, even if zero rated for tarrifs, but I think that will be the case for manufactured and agricultural goods. There may be quotas though, particularly for the latter.DavidL said:
Not so. It would be possible to have no tariffs with the EU but have arrangements by which tariffs were payable on non EU imports that were being re exported.surbiton said:
I still cannot imagine why many people have this view. It is theoretically not possible. Nothing to do with us or the Germans or anyone else. It is the moment we decided we would do our own trade deals that decided it.DavidL said:
I agree. If only the EU had stopped there.... I still hope we will have a tariff free arrangement with them.John_M said:
As I'm the poster that dragged us into this rather unlovely blind alley, I'd just like to reiterate that the Single Market in goods was probably the EEC's greatest achievement. I'll be very sorry to see us leave it.DavidL said:
I think it is time that you gave up on this one Southam. The fact is that the Single Market remains highly imperfect for anything other than physical goods.SouthamObserver said:SeanT said:SouthamObserver said:SeanT said:SouthamObserver said:david_herdson said:
Though that's market.SeanT said:
Not for me it isn't. I sell translation rights for my books to each European nation and/or language individually. And very lucrative they are, I am happy to say. Danke Deutschland.SouthamObserver said:
Whether you like it or not, the EU is a single market.John_M said:
I prefer The rest are all deficits.Dromedary said:
"Partner" indeed. That's not a partnership. And Britain exports FAR MORE to the rest of the EU than it does to the US.John_M said:Yes, I'll repeat what I posted last night. Those who think May should have temporised about visiting our #1 military partner, #1 intelligence partner, #1 bilateral investment partner and #1 export market are fuckwits halfwits.
Britain's no.1 (excuse my British usage instead of "#") export market is EU27.
Just as the Internet isn't some amorphous blob (if you want to know why the world0 -
Isn't that better known as the wringingwetocracy'?Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Felix, likewise. I checked the meaning. Mildly disappointed it didn't mean 'rule by bishops'.
0 -
Mr. glw, demagogues is one reason why carving England into stupid little assemblies would be so foolish.0
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I liked it too. Last new word I came across was andragogy. Rarely used, of course.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Felix, likewise. I checked the meaning. Mildly disappointed it didn't mean 'rule by bishops'.
0 -
Mr. Felix, perhaps mitrocracy?0
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The part that says your worth is determined by your place of birth.SeanT said:So, yeah, Muslims are deemed less desirable as citizens, in the west. It is in the nature of being Islamic. Which part of this does Helen Lewis, or Southam, not understand?
The part that says Mo Farah is not British.
The part that says you are not Cornish0 -
So what happens when an Iranian Zoroastrian wants to go to US?SeanT said:
This is inevitable. Large numbers of Muslims want to come and live in the west. To enjoy our prosperity and freedom. At the same time these incoming Muslims refuse to give up values hostile to those freedoms. Indeed there is plentiful evidence the Muslims become more hostile to us, the longer they stay, and expect the locals to bend to Muslim values.Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/825675722593333248SouthamObserver said:What frightens me - and I am happy to admit it - is that we will indeed start to see where you are born determining where you are allowed to go and what you are allowed to do.
This is the point at which westerners en masse say, no fuck off, if you don't adopt our values, fuck off home, and we don't want any more of you here. As the Dutch prime minister said the other day (in a slightly more polite way, but only slightly)
So, yeah, Muslims are deemed less desirable as citizens, in the west. It is in the nature of being Islamic. Which part of this does Helen Lewis, or Southam, not understand?0 -
0
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Waycist is another - a 'moron detector' as @TSE memorably put it.Theuniondivvie said:
Or an alternative view..Jobabob said:
Like most who accuse others of 'virtue signalling' (which is an idiotic, childish phrase by the way) you are doing so yourself, by signalling other virtues. That's one of the many reasons why the phrase is stupid.
https://twitter.com/matthaig1/status/825672552815149056
Personally when I see anyone using 'virtue signalling', 'outrage bus', 'snowflake' etc as if those terms are valid critiques of opposing views, it's a super fast shortcut for popping them in the fuckwit bag.0 -
Isam/Jobabob
This conversation is now at an end.
In future neither of you are to interact with each other, directly or indirectly.0 -
100000 coming up !!! 290 from K&S. 0.23% of total. Above the constituency average.0
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0
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100,000 now signed up to save HMQ from embarrassment.0
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True legend is our Mo!Scott_P said:0 -
0
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*Defeated by endless blockquotes*
I've no idea if there is any interest, but the full text of CETA & assorted addenda are here:
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2016/10/28-eu-canada-trade-agreement/
And details of TARIC etc are here:
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/calculation-customs-duties_en
Health warning: possibly, with the exception of TPP, the dullest documents I have ever even attempted to read.
If you told me that my only permitted role was 'trade negotiator', I think I'd defenestrate myself. I hope they earn a million pounds a year, because they would deserve it.0 -
It means that Theresa May has boxed herself into a strategic corner due to her haste to get into the Donald's good books.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Have you ever read Nevil Shute's In the Wet, where he advocated just such a voting system? He heavily criticised one man, one vote because it voted in the Attlee government and he saw them as a bunch of greedy crooks on the make trying to grab as much wealth as they could for their client groups at the expense of long term investment. His description of them as 'tub thumping nonentities' and 'good union men' with an especially thinly (barely) disguised attack on Aneurin Bevan makes for fascinating reading.John_M said:
One of my new words learned solely due to the extended cri de coeur from my intellectual betters is 'epistocracy'. I wonder if we'll ever see it implemented. Hopefully, not in my lifetime.felix said:
Surbiton won't be happy until we return to the days of voting qualifications which exclude the lumpen masses.John_M said:
Really? I thought the split for ABC1s was 56:44 - perhaps I'm mis-remembering. Or perhaps you're speaking of academia, in which case, point cheerfully conceded.surbiton said:
As it should be. The educated / intelligentsia voted Remain overwhelmingly. They will remind the rest for a long time to come.malcolmg said:
Brexit will be to blame for everything for years, it will be used and abused as cover for all sorts of shaftings.Charles said:
He's wrong. They were going anyway. Brexit is just a convenient excuseScott_P said:@SophyRidgeSky: The Polish Deputy Prime Minister tells me financial services jobs are already starting to move from the UK to Poland due to Brexit #ridge
Admittedly, that probably also had a lot to do with his disgust over the Macdonald government and their shocking ineptitude over the R101 (he was Deputy Chief Engineer on the more successful R100, but was put out of a job by R101's crash just the same). But it's an interesting example of how the educated elites with inherited wealth (Shute was the son of a senior civil servant) saw the age of mass suffrage.0 -
Islamia is not a country, Scott, and there is no religion called Corn. Musselmen are not men from the land of Mussel. Would all this be less difficult for you if I tweeted it?Scott_P said:
The part that says your worth is determined by your place of birth.SeanT said:So, yeah, Muslims are deemed less desirable as citizens, in the west. It is in the nature of being Islamic. Which part of this does Helen Lewis, or Southam, not understand?
The part that says Mo Farah is not British.
The part that says you are not Cornish0 -
Petition opposing Trump's visit to the UK has passed 100,000.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171928
Edit - Whoops, old news.0 -
He would support whatever increases the chances of getting the result he wantsfelix said:
Indeed - - but then I think he'd support extra votes for the big city dwellers and the 'epistocracy'!HYUFD said:
Property owners would still have voted for Brexit and Trump, although of course you cannot now restrict the franchise unless a majority of the electorate vote to do sofelix said:
Surbiton won't be happy until we return to the days of voting qualifications which exclude the lumpen masses.John_M said:
Really? I thought the split for ABC1s was 56:44 - perhaps I'm mis-remembering. Or perhaps you're speaking of academia, in which case, point cheerfully conceded.surbiton said:
As it should be. The educated / intelligentsia voted Remain overwhelmingly. They will remind the rest for a long time to come.malcolmg said:
Brexit will be to blame for everything for years, it will be used and abused as cover for all sorts of shaftings.Charles said:
He's wrong. They were going anyway. Brexit is just a convenient excuseScott_P said:@SophyRidgeSky: The Polish Deputy Prime Minister tells me financial services jobs are already starting to move from the UK to Poland due to Brexit #ridge
0 -
The original 'ban Trump' petition topped out at 586,930 signatures.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/1140030 -
Trump is no longer candidate Trump, he is President Trump and the most powerful man in the world and the U.S. Head of State, of course May could not ignore him even of she does not always agree with himScott_P said:0 -
For jessie boysTheuniondivvie said:
Or an alternative view..Jobabob said:
Like most who accuse others of 'virtue signalling' (which is an idiotic, childish phrase by the way) you are doing so yourself, by signalling other virtues. That's one of the many reasons why the phrase is stupid.
https://twitter.com/matthaig1/status/825672552815149056
Personally when I see anyone using 'virtue signalling', 'outrage bus', 'snowflake' etc as if those terms are valid critiques of opposing views, it's a super fast shortcut for popping them in the fuckwit bag.0 -
Understood - and fine by me. Thanks.PBModerator said:Isam/Jobabob
This conversation is now at an end.
In future neither of you are to interact with each other, directly or indirectly.0 -
Crickey it is spicy on here today, anything much going on in the world?0
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You'd have written that regardless.....first you thought Merkel would be in first, "humiliating May", when she wasn't she was "biding her time" - then you were convinced Netanyahu would "humiliate" May by getting there first....once May got there first the story changed somewhat.....williamglenn said:
It means that Theresa May has boxed herself into a strategic corner due to her haste to get into the Donald's good books.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Waste of time and effort, hopefully it does not get printed and waste a tree senslessly.Bromptonaut said:Petition opposing Trump's visit to the UK has passed 100,000.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171928
Edit - Whoops, old news.0 -
I'm afraid my familiarity with Shute ends with 'On the Beach' and 'A Town like Alice'. I'm groaning under the backlog of things I should like to read, but I shall add this to the ever extending list, thank you. I also appreciate the background on Shute - didn't know his trade before.ydoethur said:
Have you ever read Nevil Shute's In the Wet, where he advocated just such a voting system? He heavily criticised one man, one vote because it voted in the Attlee government and he saw them as a bunch of greedy crooks on the make trying to grab as much wealth as they could for their client groups at the expense of long term investment. His description of them as 'tub thumping nonentities' and 'good union men' with an especially thinly (barely) disguised attack on Aneurin Bevan makes for fascinating reading.John_M said:
One of my new words learned solely due to the extended cri de coeur from my intellectual betters is 'epistocracy'. I wonder if we'll ever see it implemented. Hopefully, not in my lifetime.felix said:
Surbiton won't be happy until we return to the days of voting qualifications which exclude the lumpen masses.John_M said:
Really? I thought the split for ABC1s was 56:44 - perhaps I'm mis-remembering. Or perhaps you're speaking of academia, in which case, point cheerfully conceded.surbiton said:
As it should be. The educated / intelligentsia voted Remain overwhelmingly. They will remind the rest for a long time to come.malcolmg said:
Brexit will be to blame for everything for years, it will be used and abused as cover for all sorts of shaftings.Charles said:
He's wrong. They were going anyway. Brexit is just a convenient excuseScott_P said:@SophyRidgeSky: The Polish Deputy Prime Minister tells me financial services jobs are already starting to move from the UK to Poland due to Brexit #ridge
Admittedly, that probably also had a lot to do with his disgust over the Macdonald government and their shocking ineptitude over the R101 (he was Deputy Chief Engineer on the more successful R100, but was put out of a job by R101's crash just the same). But it's an interesting example of how the educated elites with inherited wealth (Shute was the son of a senior civil servant) saw the age of mass suffrage.
My late father-in-law was very well known in aviation circles, and said much the same thing about the politicians who cancelled the TSR.2 - la plus change etc.0 -
William you could add stupidity to your haste, it is the Tory way, they fixate on the money and only the money.williamglenn said:
It means that Theresa May has boxed herself into a strategic corner due to her haste to get into the Donald's good books.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Has somebody been watching this famous trailer for Men in Black II and taken it slightly too seriously?MattW said:Oh no. The Post Office is next.
https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/825675493122899969
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O9EEguImLDg0 -
@surbiton
It is not my preferred outcome, but is my predicted one.
The logic is based on us being out of the Customs Union (hence need for border customs) but neither us or the EU would want to impose tarrifs. Manufactured goods have long supply chains, and the complexity of such cross channel tarrifs more trouble than they are worth. Agricultural goods of defined origin ditto, though quotas would be needed in line with CAP, and documentation to exclude secondary imports of chlorine chicken, hormone beef etc.
In time the hassle of the customs posts will cause trade to wither, but that is to be expected. Trade never increases between countries when customs unions break up.0 -
Good heavens! Something else on which we agree! It truly is the end of days!malcolmg said:
Waste of time and effort, hopefully it does not get printed and waste a tree senslessly.Bromptonaut said:Petition opposing Trump's visit to the UK has passed 100,000.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171928
Edit - Whoops, old news.0 -
Be told to jog onrottenborough said:
So what happens when an Iranian Zoroastrian wants to go to US?SeanT said:
This is inevitable. Large numbers of Muslims want to come and live in the west. To enjoy our prosperity and freedom. At the same time these incoming Muslims refuse to give up values hostile to those freedoms. Indeed there is plentiful evidence the Muslims become more hostile to us, the longer they stay, and expect the locals to bend to Muslim values.Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/825675722593333248SouthamObserver said:What frightens me - and I am happy to admit it - is that we will indeed start to see where you are born determining where you are allowed to go and what you are allowed to do.
This is the point at which westerners en masse say, no fuck off, if you don't adopt our values, fuck off home, and we don't want any more of you here. As the Dutch prime minister said the other day (in a slightly more polite way, but only slightly)
So, yeah, Muslims are deemed less desirable as citizens, in the west. It is in the nature of being Islamic. Which part of this does Helen Lewis, or Southam, not understand?0 -
@JeremyCliffe: German chancellor candidate Schulz lays into Trump's "unashamed", "unacceptable" and "dangerous" comments, which he says "cross a line".0
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No very little of note.FrancisUrquhart said:Crickey it is spicy on here today, anything much going on in the world?
0 -
I'm torn on this petition
On the one hand I think prejudicing our relationship with the world's foremost economic power is extremely counterproductive.
On the other I'm feeling bad for the Queen.0 -
Did the Amish change their way of life when they emigrated to the US ? Did the Hasidic Jews ?SeanT said:
This is inevitable. Large numbers of Muslims want to come and live in the west. To enjoy our prosperity and freedom. At the same time these incoming Muslims refuse to give up values hostile to those freedoms. Indeed there is plentiful evidence the Muslims become more hostile to us, the longer they stay, and expect the locals to bend to Muslim values.Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/825675722593333248SouthamObserver said:What frightens me - and I am happy to admit it - is that we will indeed start to see where you are born determining where you are allowed to go and what you are allowed to do.
This is the point at which westerners en masse say, no fuck off, if you don't adopt our values, fuck off home, and we don't want any more of you here. As the Dutch prime minister said the other day (in a slightly more polite way, but only slightly)
So, yeah, Muslims are deemed less desirable as citizens, in the west. It is in the nature of being Islamic. Which part of this does Helen Lewis, or Southam, not understand?
In any case, the vast majority of Muslims are just like anybody. They go to work , pay their taxes etc.
There are people you see on the TV everyday like Mishal Husain etc. On the other hand, someone like Jim Al-Khalili, the astro-physicist cannot go to the US because he was born in Baghdad.
Do these people strike you as odd ? They are, if anything, enhancing our values.0 -
@foxinsoxuk
'Agricultural goods of defined origin ditto, though quotas would be needed in line with CAP, and documentation to exclude secondary imports of chlorine chicken, hormone beef etc.'
But chlorine water OK ?
0 -
Beginning to get concerned now.CarlottaVance said:
Good heavens! Something else on which we agree! It truly is the end of days!malcolmg said:
Waste of time and effort, hopefully it does not get printed and waste a tree senslessly.Bromptonaut said:Petition opposing Trump's visit to the UK has passed 100,000.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171928
Edit - Whoops, old news.0 -
A Nobel Prize winner for peace.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/aung-san-suu-kyi-muslim-interview-bbc-today-programme-burma-nobel-peace-prize-a6952091.html0 -
I'm not sure you understand the importance of the Post Office in American politics...MattW said:Oh no. The Post Office is next.
https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/825675493122899969
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119925/?ref_=nv_sr_1
:-)
0 -
The paradox is that in those days, people from his background feared that universal suffrage would produce left wing policies. Now, a lot of them worry that universal suffrage prevents left wing policies.ydoethur said:
Have you ever read Nevil Shute's In the Wet, where he advocated just such a voting system? He heavily criticised one man, one vote because it voted in the Attlee government and he saw them as a bunch of greedy crooks on the make trying to grab as much wealth as they could for their client groups at the expense of long term investment. His description of them as 'tub thumping nonentities' and 'good union men' with an especially thinly (barely) disguised attack on Aneurin Bevan makes for fascinating reading.John_M said:
One of my new words learned solely due to the extended cri de coeur from my intellectual betters is 'epistocracy'. I wonder if we'll ever see it implemented. Hopefully, not in my lifetime.felix said:
Surbiton won't be happy until we return to the days of voting qualifications which exclude the lumpen masses.John_M said:
Really? I thought the split for ABC1s was 56:44 - perhaps I'm mis-remembering. Or perhaps you're speaking of academia, in which case, point cheerfully conceded.surbiton said:
As it should be. The educated / intelligentsia voted Remain overwhelmingly. They will remind the rest for a long time to come.malcolmg said:
Brexit will be to blame for everything for years, it will be used and abused as cover for all sorts of shaftings.Charles said:
He's wrong. They were going anyway. Brexit is just a convenient excuseScott_P said:@SophyRidgeSky: The Polish Deputy Prime Minister tells me financial services jobs are already starting to move from the UK to Poland due to Brexit #ridge
Admittedly, that probably also had a lot to do with his disgust over the Macdonald government and their shocking ineptitude over the R101 (he was Deputy Chief Engineer on the more successful R100, but was put out of a job by R101's crash just the same). But it's an interesting example of how the educated elites with inherited wealth (Shute was the son of a senior civil servant) saw the age of mass suffrage.
I'm pretty sure that a Referendum that had been held on a pre-1918 franchise, mostly excluding young men, non-ratepayers, and all women, would have produced a Leave majority.0 -
No! No! No!HYUFD said:
Trump is no longer candidate Trump, he is President Trump and the most powerful man in the world and the U.S. Head of State, of course May could not ignore him even of she does not always agree with himScott_P said:
You don't understand!
Either you agree 100% with Trump or disagree 100%
Failure to roundly denounce = 100% agreement.0 -
I think it may be symbolic of secret IRA links.Nigelb said:
I'm not sure you understand the importance of the Post Office in American politics...MattW said:Oh no. The Post Office is next.
https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/825675493122899969
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119925/?ref_=nv_sr_1
:-)0 -
Why are you feeling bad for the Queen about meeting Trump? She's married to Phillip for gods sake.Pulpstar said:I'm torn on this petition
On the one hand I think prejudicing our relationship with the world's foremost economic power is extremely counterproductive.
On the other I'm feeling bad for the Queen.0 -
I think Lewis will vote against on the third reading and stand down. But he will not challenge, he will be well placed post Corbyn's defeat mind.SeanT said:Corbyn doubles down.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/29/jeremy-corbyn-suggests-he-will-sack-shadow-ministers-who-vote-against-article-50-bill?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
If this doesn't kill him, nothing will. And he's leader until 2020.0 -
Ahem - Trump won the votes in the states he needed on the backs of w/c voters. The longer you turn your back on them the more 'Trumps' you will get. His election campaign very cleverly focussed on the votes he needed - the fact that Hilary got her extra votes in places like NY and California doesn't alter that nor increase her EC college vote to anywhere near that achieved by Trump.
He won extra votes in places he needed them on the backs of middle class, white, predominantly rural voters. Those on minimum wage/insecure employment voted heavily for Clinton. Hence she held Nevada.0 -
This is all rather hypothetical though as you would have to get a majority of the current electorate to vote to restrict the franchise now in the first placeSean_F said:
The paradox is that in those days, people from his background feared that universal suffrage would produce left wing policies. Now, a lot of them worry that universal suffrage prevents left wing policies.ydoethur said:
Have you ever read Nevil Shute's In the Wet, where he advocated just such a voting system? He heavily criticised one man, one vote because it voted in the Attlee government and he saw them as a bunch of greedy crooks on the make trying to grab as much wealth as they could for their client groups at the expense of long term investment. His description of them as 'tub thumping nonentities' and 'good union men' with an especially thinly (barely) disguised attack on Aneurin Bevan makes for fascinating reading.John_M said:
One of my new words learned solely due to the extended cri de coeur from my intellectual betters is 'epistocracy'. I wonder if we'll ever see it implemented. Hopefully, not in my lifetime.felix said:
Surbiton won't be happy until we return to the days of voting qualifications which exclude the lumpen masses.John_M said:
Really? I thought the split for ABC1s was 56:44 - perhaps I'm mis-remembering. Or perhaps you're speaking of academia, in which case, point cheerfully conceded.surbiton said:
As it should be. The educated / intelligentsia voted Remain overwhelmingly. They will remind the rest for a long time to come.malcolmg said:
Brexit will be to blame for everything for years, it will be used and abused as cover for all sorts of shaftings.Charles said:
He's wrong. They were going anyway. Brexit is just a convenient excuseScott_P said:@SophyRidgeSky: The Polish Deputy Prime Minister tells me financial services jobs are already starting to move from the UK to Poland due to Brexit #ridge
Admittedly, that probably also had a lot to do with his disgust over the Macdonald government and their shocking ineptitude over the R101 (he was Deputy Chief Engineer on the more successful R100, but was put out of a job by R101's crash just the same). But it's an interesting example of how the educated elites with inherited wealth (Shute was the son of a senior civil servant) saw the age of mass suffrage.
I'm pretty sure that a Referendum that had been held on a pre-1918 franchise, mostly excluding young men, non-ratepayers, and all women, would have produced a Leave majority.0 -
Good point, just worried Trump might try to do something inappropriate. Grabbing May's hand looked odd to me, if he was to do that to the Queen though :ibrokenwheel said:
Why are you feeling bad for the Queen? She's married to Phillip for gods sake.Pulpstar said:I'm torn on this petition
On the one hand I think prejudicing our relationship with the world's foremost economic power is extremely counterproductive.
On the other I'm feeling bad for the Queen.0 -
The rich elites just hate that plebs are allowed to have any say , even when they have rigged systems that favour them in any case. They would love to dispense with the plebs being able to vote at all.John_M said:
I'm afraid my familiarity with Shute ends with 'On the Beach' and 'A Town like Alice'. I'm groaning under the backlog of things I should like to read, but I shall add this to the ever extending list, thank you. I also appreciate the background on Shute - didn't know his trade before.ydoethur said:John_M said:
One of my new words learned solely due to the extended cri de coeur from my intellectual betters is 'epistocracy'. I wonder if we'll ever see it implemented. Hopefully, not in my lifetime.felix said:
Surbiton won't be happy until we return to the days of voting qualifications which exclude the lumpen masses.John_M said:
Really? I thought the split for ABC1s was 56:44 - perhaps I'm mis-remembering. Or perhaps you're speaking of academia, in which case, point cheerfully conceded.surbiton said:
As it should be. The educated / intelligentsia voted Remain overwhelmingly. They will remind the rest for a long time to come.malcolmg said:
Brexit will be to blame for everything for years, it will be used and abused as cover for all sorts of shaftings.Charles said:
He's wrong. They were going anyway. Brexit is just a convenient excuseScott_P said:@SophyRidgeSky: The Polish Deputy Prime Minister tells me financial services jobs are already starting to move from the UK to Poland due to Brexit #ridge
My late father-in-law was very well known in aviation circles, and said much the same thing about the politicians who cancelled the TSR.2 - la plus change etc.0 -
Yes, that does indeed look the way it will go for Lewis.Pulpstar said:
I think Lewis will vote against on the third reading and stand down. But he will not challenge, he will be well placed post Corbyn's defeat mind.SeanT said:Corbyn doubles down.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/29/jeremy-corbyn-suggests-he-will-sack-shadow-ministers-who-vote-against-article-50-bill?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
If this doesn't kill him, nothing will. And he's leader until 2020.0 -
She has suffered far worse than Trump , it will be a breeze for her.Pulpstar said:I'm torn on this petition
On the one hand I think prejudicing our relationship with the world's foremost economic power is extremely counterproductive.
On the other I'm feeling bad for the Queen.0 -
Corbyn is trying to win Stoke and Copeland not appease some EUphile diehards within his own party who represent seats far more pro Remain than the average Labour seatSeanT said:Corbyn doubles down.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/29/jeremy-corbyn-suggests-he-will-sack-shadow-ministers-who-vote-against-article-50-bill?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
If this doesn't kill him, nothing will. And he's leader until 2020.0 -
He may well be doing them a favour , they may hate it and be far better off staying where they are. One wonders why so many people clamour to get to the west rather than improve their own countries.surbiton said:
Did the Amish change their way of life when they emigrated to the US ? Did the Hasidic Jews ?SeanT said:
This is inevitable. Large numbers of Muslims want to come and live in the west. To enjoy our prosperity and freedom. At the same time these incoming Muslims refuse to give up values hostile to those freedoms. Indeed there is plentiful evidence the Muslims become more hostile to us, the longer they stay, and expect the locals to bend to Muslim values.Scott_P said:
https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/825675722593333248SouthamObserver said:What frightens me - and I am happy to admit it - is that we will indeed start to see where you are born determining where you are allowed to go and what you are allowed to do.
This is the point at which westerners en masse say, no fuck off, if you don't adopt our values, fuck off home, and we don't want any more of you here. As the Dutch prime minister said the other day (in a slightly more polite way, but only slightly)
So, yeah, Muslims are deemed less desirable as citizens, in the west. It is in the nature of being Islamic. Which part of this does Helen Lewis, or Southam, not understand?
In any case, the vast majority of Muslims are just like anybody. They go to work , pay their taxes etc.
There are people you see on the TV everyday like Mishal Husain etc. On the other hand, someone like Jim Al-Khalili, the astro-physicist cannot go to the US because he was born in Baghdad.
Do these people strike you as odd ? They are, if anything, enhancing our values.0 -
Philip might pull his hair to see if it was a wig or not. As for the Slovenian ex-model, I am sure The Sun will do its patriotic duty...malcolmg said:
She has suffered far worse than Trump , it will be a breeze for her.Pulpstar said:I'm torn on this petition
On the one hand I think prejudicing our relationship with the world's foremost economic power is extremely counterproductive.
On the other I'm feeling bad for the Queen.
Oh, and this.........
http://mashable.com/2017/01/28/trump-tweet-queen-kate-middleton/#MMZkkUzrn8qA0 -
@PaulBrandITV: Hard to see how Trump visit will be anything other than disaster now. Even if PM ignores outrage, thin-skinned President will hate protests.0
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If you are driving the gataway car you are still robbing the bank and cannot claim to be innocent.CarlottaVance said:
No! No! No!HYUFD said:
Trump is no longer candidate Trump, he is President Trump and the most powerful man in the world and the U.S. Head of State, of course May could not ignore him even of she does not always agree with himScott_P said:
You don't understand!
Either you agree 100% with Trump or disagree 100%
Failure to roundly denounce = 100% agreement.0 -
yes, no problem with that.johnzims said:@foxinsoxuk
'Agricultural goods of defined origin ditto, though quotas would be needed in line with CAP, and documentation to exclude secondary imports of chlorine chicken, hormone beef etc.'
But chlorine water OK ?
The reason chlorine wash is used in american poultry slaughterhouses is because of the high rates of fecal contamination in these. The chlorine wash is to reduce the surface contamination in order to meet bacterial guidlines. It is ineffective for deepe contamination, but that is not tested by surface swabs. It is not chlorine per se that is the problem, but rather the underlying reason that it is needed. Slower production lines with better basic hygiene, as currently required in the UK and EU, is strongly preferable, but more expensive. It is why chlorine chicken is cheap.
Chlorinated water is completely different.0 -
That is what the Tower is for.Pulpstar said:
Good point, just worried Trump might try to do something inappropriate. Grabbing May's hand looked odd to me, if he was to do that to the Queen though :ibrokenwheel said:
Why are you feeling bad for the Queen? She's married to Phillip for gods sake.Pulpstar said:I'm torn on this petition
On the one hand I think prejudicing our relationship with the world's foremost economic power is extremely counterproductive.
On the other I'm feeling bad for the Queen.0
