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"Sir - I salute your courage, your strength your indefatigability."Casino_Royale said:
What would he have her do? Call Trump a c*nt, and tell him to go f*ck himself?Scott_P said:
His narcissism and self-centred personality demand that we flatter him - because such individuals are susceptible to flattery, and it's the obvious diplomatic strategy.
Yes, it might come to nothing, in which case we can change course, but it is more likely to work to our advantage.0 -
NYC and LA residents may not be too happy but given 30 out of 50 states backed Trump I expect their residents will be very happy she is meeting himTheScreamingEagles said:I think Professor Schama has overdosed on the hyperbole pills this morning
https://twitter.com/simon_schama/status/8245267709133414400 -
I think it's based on a misreading of Trump. Yes, he's a narcissist, but he can smell insincerity and hypocrisy a mile off.Casino_Royale said:His narcissism and self-centred personality demand that we flatter him - because such individuals are susceptible to flattery, and it's the obvious diplomatic strategy.
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Relaunching the packaging without changing the product almost never works. Those who didn't like the product still won't buy it and it'll piss off those who liked the old packaging.Sandpit said:
Oh no, Tory lead down to only sixteen points!TheScreamingEagles said:Latest YouGov/Times poll
Con 40 (-2) Lab 24 (-1) UKIP 14 (+2) Lib Dem 10 (-1)
Mrs May has a 32-point lead over Mr Corbyn
So, Mr Corbyn, how did that "relaunch" the other week go...?0 -
I don't know but even thinking about it puts you in the doolally category in my book.Casino_Royale said:
Why is it bonkers? You disagree, or you think I'm doolally?Roger said:
All totally bonkers! Which is why I still believe there's a chance this unstopable force will meet it's immovable object'. Who other than a complete nutter would care less about the colour of their passport unless it meant a longer wait in the passport queue (which it probably would)Casino_Royale said:
Once we have formally left, established a new UK-EU trade arrangement, have several new trade deals in the pipeline, and May can demonstrate table some quick wins with the new powers, it will shift even more.chestnut said:
And, as the excellent bar chart in the thread header shows, more people are moving towards Leave as the correct decision.HYUFD said:
As I said polling shows most voters want May to have a good relationship with the most powerful man in the worldRoger said:
As the linkage is becoming stronger between Brexit and Trumpism the more doubting 'cyclefrees' we're likely to see. A bit of overeagerness from Farage is one thing but a smiling Mrs May next to 'Torturer Trump' is a quite different kettle of fishTOPPING said:This could be a very tricky time for May.
Cosying up to a supporter of torture (because she has to) might alienate plenty of voters not to say Cons MPs.
Meanwhile despite the poll, it seems our very own @Cyclefree is a regretter. Not that we know how she voted so we should consider it on behalf of the country.
There are some very easy politically popular things May can do: bring back the blue passport, re-permitting the sale of loose items in pounds and ounces, announcing cuts in immigration, and giving an extra slug of cash to the NHS.
Getting through the next 2 years is the tough bit.
Do you want a bet a change in our passport is announced by GE2020?0 -
Ah. OK. That'd be a very impressive return for Labour given current national polling.Sean_F said:
I meant a 5% swing to Labour.david_herdson said:
A 5% swing would deliver Copeland to the Tories.Sean_F said:
I expect Labour will hold both, fairly comfortably (say a swing of 5%). Paradoxically, that will be a bad result, as it will persuade the party that there's no need to change leader.HYUFD said:
If Labour lose Copeland and Stoke Corbynistas can simply blame it on the fact both Labour candidates were not true believers in the Messiah but backed Owen Smith and so the faithful stayed at home and they probably willTheScreamingEagles said:
Gareth Snell is a very perceptive and astute about politics judging by those tweets.Scott_P said:0 -
You missed the word 'decent'HYUFD said:
NYC and LA residents may not be too happy but given 30 out of 50 states backed Trump I expect their residents will be very happy she is meeting himTheScreamingEagles said:I think Professor Schama has overdosed on the hyperbole pills this morning
https://twitter.com/simon_schama/status/8245267709133414400 -
Ah, 'no true Scotsman' rides again. Welcome back old friend, we've missed you.Roger said:
You missed the word 'decent'HYUFD said:
NYC and LA residents may not be too happy but given 30 out of 50 states backed Trump I expect their residents will be very happy she is meeting himTheScreamingEagles said:I think Professor Schama has overdosed on the hyperbole pills this morning
https://twitter.com/simon_schama/status/8245267709133414400 -
It's not getting above zero today. Bloody weather.
On the other hand, a couple of years ago it barely got above freezing at all for months...0 -
I may be wrong, but it's very difficult to motivate government supporters in mid-term by-elections. Even in 1997-03, Labour's huge poll leads didn't lead to by-election victories.david_herdson said:
Ah. OK. That'd be a very impressive return for Labour given current national polling.Sean_F said:
I meant a 5% swing to Labour.david_herdson said:
A 5% swing would deliver Copeland to the Tories.Sean_F said:
I expect Labour will hold both, fairly comfortably (say a swing of 5%). Paradoxically, that will be a bad result, as it will persuade the party that there's no need to change leader.HYUFD said:
If Labour lose Copeland and Stoke Corbynistas can simply blame it on the fact both Labour candidates were not true believers in the Messiah but backed Owen Smith and so the faithful stayed at home and they probably willTheScreamingEagles said:
Gareth Snell is a very perceptive and astute about politics judging by those tweets.Scott_P said:0 -
It is the refusal of some Remoaners and Hillary voters to see Leave and Trump voters as anything other than ignorant oiks which goes some way to explain why they lostRoger said:
You missed the word 'decent'HYUFD said:
NYC and LA residents may not be too happy but given 30 out of 50 states backed Trump I expect their residents will be very happy she is meeting himTheScreamingEagles said:I think Professor Schama has overdosed on the hyperbole pills this morning
https://twitter.com/simon_schama/status/8245267709133414400 -
More bed wetting from you.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:
My PB interest, as it were, in Brexit is in the assumptions behind it. In particular: That Brexit will really go ahead and make a difference. That the EU will make us a good deal because they need us at least as much as we need them. That Brexit is an opening to the world because the rest of the world will do more with us.foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.FF43 said:First poll I have seen that shows a proportion of Remainers embracing the fait accompli. I know they exist because am acquainted with a couple of them, including my wife. It will be interesting to see if that acceptance spreads to a consensus.
My assessment is (and always has been) that Brexit will go ahead and change everything; that the EU is actually unable to offer us a good deal and won't want to anyway; that Brexit will see less partnership with the rest of the world, not more. That raises the question of why are we doing this when there's going to be enormous disruption to end up worse than we started.
Which leads us to the most interesting assumption, that the British people accept leaving the EU as a settled decision. I think they would like to. The British have never really understood the EU.and are frustrated by it. On the other hand the rhetoric will stop and reality will kick in. People will realise Brexit isn't doing us any good. I think there's likely to be moves to tie Britain into the EU that don't involve full membership. When Theresa May says "Out means Out", that may not be how it turns out.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.
We had all the freedom and democracy and sovereignty in the world before we voted to leave.
You just wanted someone to blame because you are weak.
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OKRoger said:
You missed the word 'decent'HYUFD said:
NYC and LA residents may not be too happy but given 30 out of 50 states backed Trump I expect their residents will be very happy she is meeting himTheScreamingEagles said:I think Professor Schama has overdosed on the hyperbole pills this morning
https://twitter.com/simon_schama/status/824526770913341440
NYC and LA residents may not be too happy but given 30 out of 50 states backed Trump I expect their decent residents will be very happy she is meeting him0 -
There's no doubt that some Leave voters are ignorant oiks, if that's how you want to describe DEs. Poor, uneducated and unlikely to have grasped the significance of the EMA to the UK pharma industry and so forth. They're still entitled to vote as they see fit.HYUFD said:
It is the refusal of some Remoaners and Hillary voters to see Leave and Trump voters as anything other than ignorant oiks which goes some way to explain why they lostRoger said:
You missed the word 'decent'HYUFD said:
NYC and LA residents may not be too happy but given 30 out of 50 states backed Trump I expect their residents will be very happy she is meeting himTheScreamingEagles said:I think Professor Schama has overdosed on the hyperbole pills this morning
https://twitter.com/simon_schama/status/824526770913341440
We should be grateful. A century ago the Left were flirting with eugenics. At least they've dialled it back to de haut en bas disdain.0 -
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Garbage as usual! Why don't you join Casino and go and paint your passport blue. Most of the rest of us have got more interesting things to think about than your archaic idea of freedom and nation. Go to France for a month and get a perspective.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:
My PB interest, as it were, in Brexit is in the assumptions behind it. In particular: That Brexit will really go ahead and make a difference. That the EU will make us a good deal because they need us at least as much as we need them. That Brexit is an opening to the world because the rest of the world will do more with us.foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.FF43 said:First poll I have seen that shows a proportion of Remainers embracing the fait accompli. I know they exist because am acquainted with a couple of them, including my wife. It will be interesting to see if that acceptance spreads to a consensus.
My assessment is (and always has been) that Brexit will go ahead and change everything; that the EU is actually unable to offer us a good deal and won't want to anyway; that Brexit will see less partnership with the rest of the world, not more. That raises the question of why are we doing this when there's going to be enormous disruption to end up worse than we started.
Which leads us to the most interesting assumption, that the British people accept leaving the EU as a settled decision. I think they would like to. The British have never really understood the EU.and are frustrated by it. On the other hand the rhetoric will stop and reality will kick in. People will realise Brexit isn't doing us any good. I think there's likely to be moves to tie Britain into the EU that don't involve full membership. When Theresa May says "Out means Out", that may not be how it turns out.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.0 -
I think you mean pre-Brexit...Philip_Thompson said:Wow that's great. Brexit Britain is smashing all the records.
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Head to Stoke :>TheScreamingEagles said:I've been asked to go campaign in Copeland.
Sadly I can't go, otherwise it would have been a nailed on Tory gain.0 -
How long was I asleep for? Have we left the EU?Philip_Thompson said:0 -
And that being a member of the EU is not "holding us back" in any wayTheScreamingEagles said:Further proof, if proof were needed, of Osborne's magnificent stewardship of the economy
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God no. Place is a dump.Pulpstar said:
Head to Stoke :>TheScreamingEagles said:I've been asked to go campaign in Copeland.
Sadly I can't go, otherwise it would have been a nailed on Tory gain.0 -
Remarkably similar proportions to support for the Iraq war.SeanT said:
Look at the poll. The nation agrees with me. Suck it up, furrycup.TOPPING said:
More bed wetting from you.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:
My PB interest, as it were, in Brexit is in the assumptions behind it. In particular: That Brexit will really go ahead and make a difference. That the EU will make us a good deal because they need us at least as much as we need them. That Brexit is an opening to the world because the rest of the world will do more with us.foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.FF43 said:First poll I have seen that shows a proportion of Remainers embracing the fait accompli. I know they exist because am acquainted with a couple of them, including my wife. It will be interesting to see if that acceptance spreads to a consensus.
My assessment is (and always has been) that Brexit will go ahead and change everything; that the EU is actually unable to offer us a good deal and won't want to anyway; that Brexit will see less partnership with the rest of the world, not more. That raises the question of why are we doing this when there's going to be enormous disruption to end up worse than we started.
Which leads us to the most interesting assumption, that the British people accept leaving the EU as a settled decision. I think they would like to. The British have never really understood the EU.and are frustrated by it. On the other hand the rhetoric will stop and reality will kick in. People will realise Brexit isn't doing us any good. I think there's likely to be moves to tie Britain into the EU that don't involve full membership. When Theresa May says "Out means Out", that may not be how it turns out.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.
We had all the freedom and democracy and sovereignty in the world before we voted to leave.
You just wanted someone to blame because you are weak.
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No we didn't not when our laws were written by foreigners that we didn't elect.TOPPING said:
More bed wetting from you.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:
My PB interest, as it were, in Brexit is in the assumptions behind it. In particular: That Brexit will really go ahead and make a difference. That the EU will make us a good deal because they need us at least as much as we need them. That Brexit is an opening to the world because the rest of the world will do more with us.foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.FF43 said:First poll I have seen that shows a proportion of Remainers embracing the fait accompli. I know they exist because am acquainted with a couple of them, including my wife. It will be interesting to see if that acceptance spreads to a consensus.
My assessment is (and always has been) that Brexit will go ahead and change everything; that the EU is actually unable to offer us a good deal and won't want to anyway; that Brexit will see less partnership with the rest of the world, not more. That raises the question of why are we doing this when there's going to be enormous disruption to end up worse than we started.
Which leads us to the most interesting assumption, that the British people accept leaving the EU as a settled decision. I think they would like to. The British have never really understood the EU.and are frustrated by it. On the other hand the rhetoric will stop and reality will kick in. People will realise Brexit isn't doing us any good. I think there's likely to be moves to tie Britain into the EU that don't involve full membership. When Theresa May says "Out means Out", that may not be how it turns out.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.
We had all the freedom and democracy and sovereignty in the world before we voted to leave.
You just wanted someone to blame because you are weak.0 -
Poor baby. Memory lapses afflict us all as we age. Let me jog your memory.TheScreamingEagles said:
How long was I asleep for? Have we left the EU?Philip_Thompson said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-363555640 -
With respect, and I say this as an at-the-time Remainer and federalist, that's complete bunk.TOPPING said:
More bed wetting from you.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:
My PB interest, as it were, in Brexit is in the assumptions behind it. In particular: That Brexit will really go ahead and make a difference. That the EU will make us a good deal because they need us at least as much as we need them. That Brexit is an opening to the world because the rest of the world will do more with us.foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.
My assessment is (and always has been) that Brexit will go ahead and change everything; that the EU is actually unable to offer us a good deal and won't want to anyway; that Brexit will see less partnership with the rest of the world, not more. That raises the question of why are we doing this when there's going to be enormous disruption to end up worse than we started.
Which leads us to the most interesting assumption, that the British people accept leaving the EU as a settled decision. I think they would like to. The British have never really understood the EU.and are frustrated by it. On the other hand the rhetoric will stop and reality will kick in. People will realise Brexit isn't doing us any good. I think there's likely to be moves to tie Britain into the EU that don't involve full membership. When Theresa May says "Out means Out", that may not be how it turns out.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.
We had all the freedom and democracy and sovereignty in the world before we voted to leave.
You just wanted someone to blame because you are weak.
- Could Britain choose its own immigration policy?
- Could Britain set its own regulations for industry, goods or services?
- Could Britain set its own taxes as it chose?
- Was the European government elected and accountable according to usual democratic norms?
- Could Britain's parliament amend or introduce legislation to reverse judicial decisions from the CJEU that it didn't like?
There were and are certainly advantages to EU membership but to pretend that there was no cost in sovereignty or no democratic deficit is the sort of facile nonsense that lost the EU and its supporters credibility.0 -
Indeed but as long as they keep up that attitude the white working class will not be coming back to them anytime soonJohn_M said:
There's no doubt that some Leave voters are ignorant oiks, if that's how you want to describe DEs. Poor, uneducated and unlikely to have grasped the significance of the EMA to the UK pharma industry and so forth. They're still entitled to vote as they see fit.HYUFD said:
It is the refusal of some Remoaners and Hillary voters to see Leave and Trump voters as anything other than ignorant oiks which goes some way to explain why they lostRoger said:
You missed the word 'decent'HYUFD said:
NYC and LA residents may not be too happy but given 30 out of 50 states backed Trump I expect their residents will be very happy she is meeting himTheScreamingEagles said:I think Professor Schama has overdosed on the hyperbole pills this morning
https://twitter.com/simon_schama/status/824526770913341440
We should be grateful. A century ago the Left were flirting with eugenics. At least they've dialled it back to de haut en bas disdain.0 -
A handy cheat sheet for everyone:
Positive news
Brexiteers: Despite Brexit
Remainers: We haven't left the EU.
Negative news
Brexiteers: We haven't left the EU.
Remainers: Because of Brexit0 -
Has anyone commented that YouGov's results on "right result/wrong result" in its regular polls have been consistently different from that in this poll?
It doesn't mean YouGov is right or Opinium is wrong, but the variance should be noted.0 -
Osborne claimed the mere act of voting to leave the EU would cause a DIY recession.TheScreamingEagles said:
How long was I asleep for? Have we left the EU?Philip_Thompson said:0 -
Said Chamberlain.Casino_Royale said:
His narcissism and self-centred personality demand that we flatter him - because such individuals are susceptible to flattery, and it's the obvious diplomatic strategy.Scott_P said:
Yes, it might come to nothing, in which case we can change course, but it is more likely to work to our advantage.
"The old expression, ‘To the victor belong the spoils’––you remember I always used to say, ‘Keep the oil.’ I wasn’t a fan of Iraq. I don’t want to go into Iraq. But I will tell you, when we were in we got out wrong. And I always said in addition to that, ‘Keep the oil.’ Now, I said it for economic reasons. But if you think about it, Mike, if you kept the oil you probably wouldn’t have ISIS because that’s where they made their money in the first place. So we should have kept the oil, okay? Maybe you’ll have another chance."
President Donald J Trump. 21/1/170 -
Philip_Thompson said:
Osborne claimed the mere act of voting to leave the EU would cause a DIY recession.
If the British people vote to leave, there is only one way to bring that about, namely to trigger article 50 of the treaties and begin the process of exit, and the British people would rightly expect that to start straight away.0 -
I read last night that Greece's debt ratio is running above 180% of GDP, and aim is to reduce it by 20 points by 2060.
2060!
The Greeks are in for generations and generations of suffering.0 -
But what's this? An elected British politician chairs the EU committee on the single market? Surely that can't be right?Philip_Thompson said:No we didn't not when our laws were written by foreigners that we didn't elect.
https://twitter.com/vickyford/status/8241770774737100830 -
Someone hasn't got the memo:
@BBCnormans No sign of post referendum economic slump so far with third successive quarter of steady growth at 0.6%0 -
I'll take that as a compliment, coming from you.Roger said:
I don't know but even thinking about it puts you in the doolally category in my book.Casino_Royale said:
Why is it bonkers? You disagree, or you think I'm doolally?Roger said:
All totally bonkers! Which is why I still believe there's a chance this unstopable force will meet it's immovable object'. Who other than a complete nutter would care less about the colour of their passport unless it meant a longer wait in the passport queue (which it probably would)Casino_Royale said:
Once we have formally left, established a new UK-EU trade arrangement, have several new trade deals in the pipeline, and May can demonstrate table some quick wins with the new powers, it will shift even more.chestnut said:
And, as the excellent bar chart in the thread header shows, more people are moving towards Leave as the correct decision.HYUFD said:
As I said polling shows most voters want May to have a good relationship with the most powerful man in the worldRoger said:
As the linkage is becoming stronger between Brexit and Trumpism the more doubting 'cyclefrees' we're likely to see. A bit of overeagerness from Farage is one thing but a smiling Mrs May next to 'Torturer Trump' is a quite different kettle of fishTOPPING said:This could be a very tricky time for May.
Cosying up to a supporter of torture (because she has to) might alienate plenty of voters not to say Cons MPs.
Meanwhile despite the poll, it seems our very own @Cyclefree is a regretter. Not that we know how she voted so we should consider it on behalf of the country.
There are some very easy politically popular things May can do: bring back the blue passport, re-permitting the sale of loose items in pounds and ounces, announcing cuts in immigration, and giving an extra slug of cash to the NHS.
Getting through the next 2 years is the tough bit.
Do you want a bet a change in our passport is announced by GE2020?
£25 at evens that HMG announces the intent of, or implements, a new UK passport design by GE2020 which will have a dark blue/black colour and removes the EU from it.
Deal?0 -
I believe that the actual XO stops short of torture and says that US laws should be obeyed at all times. There is a fake XO going around which does deal with torture http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-executive-action-torture-black-site-prisons/SouthamObserver said:
But the great news is we could get leeway to export more high-end cheese into the US. That should give us a big bargaining chip when we negotiate with the Germans and the French.TOPPING said:This could be a very tricky time for May.
Cosying up to a supporter of torture (because she has to) might alienate plenty of voters not to say Cons MPs.
Meanwhile despite the poll, it seems our very own @Cyclefree is a regretter. Not that we know how she voted so we should consider it on behalf of the country.0 -
True. Was there a spread between the two in predicting the referendum result?AlastairMeeks said:Has anyone commented that YouGov's results on "right result/wrong result" in its regular polls have been consistently different from that in this poll?
It doesn't mean YouGov is right or Opinium is wrong, but the variance should be noted.0 -
I wonder what unforeseen consequences of the by-elections might be. If Labour loses one or both seats, the consensus would seem to be it's bad for Corbyn. But what if it deters incumbent Labour MPs from resigning, for fear they'll cost the party (and the party is longer term than the leader)?0
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What, every single contestant?RobD said:
Trump himself has done beauty pageants.Jonathan said:
Are their any judges in or married to the Trump family?Nigelb said:Is there a market on the nominee for the US Supreme Court anywhere ?
Some of the runners...
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/01/william_pryor_has_no_place_on_the_supreme_court.html0 -
I think Topping's view is - which I respect, but vehemently disagree with - is that, yes, we couldn't do any of that, but we could chip in a small say at a much higher international level, and it wasn't a big deal particularly next to the economic costs of saying "No".david_herdson said:
With respect, and I say this as an at-the-time Remainer and federalist, that's complete bunk.TOPPING said:
More bed wetting from you.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.
We had all the freedom and democracy and sovereignty in the world before we voted to leave.
You just wanted someone to blame because you are weak.
- Could Britain choose its own immigration policy?
- Could Britain set its own regulations for industry, goods or services?
- Could Britain set its own taxes as it chose?
- Was the European government elected and accountable according to usual democratic norms?
- Could Britain's parliament amend or introduce legislation to reverse judicial decisions from the CJEU that it didn't like?
There were and are certainly advantages to EU membership but to pretend that there was no cost in sovereignty or no democratic deficit is the sort of facile nonsense that lost the EU and its supporters credibility.0 -
Most of the rest of us voted to Leave.Roger said:
Garbage as usual! Why don't you join Casino and go and paint your passport blue. Most of the rest of us have got more interesting things to think about than your archaic idea of freedom and nation. Go to France for a month and get a perspective.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:
My PB interest, as it were, in Brexit is in the assumptions behind it. In particular: That Brexit will really go ahead and make a difference. That the EU will make us a good deal because they need us at least as much as we need them. That Brexit is an opening to the world because the rest of the world will do more with us.foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.FF43 said:First poll I have seen that shows a proportion of Remainers embracing the fait accompli. I know they exist because am acquainted with a couple of them, including my wife. It will be interesting to see if that acceptance spreads to a consensus.
My assessment is (and always has been) that Brexit will go ahead and change everything; that the EU is actually unable to offer us a good deal and won't want to anyway; that Brexit will see less partnership with the rest of the world, not more. That raises the question of why are we doing this when there's going to be enormous disruption to end up worse than we started.
Which leads us to the most interesting assumption, that the British people accept leaving the EU as a settled decision. I think they would like to. The British have never really understood the EU.and are frustrated by it. On the other hand the rhetoric will stop and reality will kick in. People will realise Brexit isn't doing us any good. I think there's likely to be moves to tie Britain into the EU that don't involve full membership. When Theresa May says "Out means Out", that may not be how it turns out.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.0 -
@PaulBrandITV: Doesn't sound as if David Davis intends to publish white paper on Brexit before Article 50 vote #Brexit0
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If the EU is to survive, it has to become a single country with a federal structure. They understand that even if they try to keep it out of focus.
Some Remainers think the day can't come soon enough, yet they still pretend we'd have sovereignty. Barmy.0 -
It did lead to a Lib Dem gain from the Tories in Romsey though, and a massive anti-Tory swing in Winchester (which some might regard as a gain if the original 1997GE vote was taken as null).Sean_F said:
I may be wrong, but it's very difficult to motivate government supporters in mid-term by-elections. Even in 1997-03, Labour's huge poll leads didn't lead to by-election victories.david_herdson said:
Ah. OK. That'd be a very impressive return for Labour given current national polling.Sean_F said:
I meant a 5% swing to Labour.david_herdson said:
A 5% swing would deliver Copeland to the Tories.Sean_F said:
I expect Labour will hold both, fairly comfortably (say a swing of 5%). Paradoxically, that will be a bad result, as it will persuade the party that there's no need to change leader.HYUFD said:
If Labour lose Copeland and Stoke Corbynistas can simply blame it on the fact both Labour candidates were not true believers in the Messiah but backed Owen Smith and so the faithful stayed at home and they probably willTheScreamingEagles said:
Gareth Snell is a very perceptive and astute about politics judging by those tweets.Scott_P said:
I agree with your implicit point that Labour is over-priced in Copeland but all the same, a 5% swing would be a good deal more than I'd expect.0 -
That is very interesting.williamglenn said:
But what's this? An elected British politician chairs the EU committee on the single market? Surely that can't be right?Philip_Thompson said:No we didn't not when our laws were written by foreigners that we didn't elect.
https://twitter.com/vickyford/status/8241770774737100830 -
Graeme Wearden
UK has now racked up 16 straight quarters of growth #GDP https://t.co/q3wA3QKjCv https://t.co/I9vD4zlhaP0 -
Time for a reverse Maastricht.Scott_P said:@PaulBrandITV: Doesn't sound as if David Davis intends to publish white paper on Brexit before Article 50 vote #Brexit
0 -
The seductive thing about Trump is that he is right about some of the problems. It's the solutions that are seriously out of whack. Chuck in his sheer randomness, ego and narcissistic personality and we enter a dangerous time.SeanT said:This is an actual genuine first line from a news story.
"A 12-year-old girl was among six people shot on Wednesday evening during a vigil in Chicago for a gunshot victim, local media said,"
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-chicago-shooting-idUSKBN15A0S7
Trump is clearly a crazed loon, but he's right about that American Carnage. They need to send in the army.
Fwiw I believe there is something there between him and Russia. No normal American president would shit on NATO.0 -
1) That prediction was commensurate with an immediate triggering of Article 50John_M said:
Poor baby. Memory lapses afflict us all as we age. Let me jog your memory.TheScreamingEagles said:
How long was I asleep for? Have we left the EU?Philip_Thompson said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564
2) Osborne underestimated the resilience of his own economic miracle.0 -
I think that they may well revert the passport. It costs very little and is symbolic. Pretty meaningless but the Daily Mail will like it.Casino_Royale said:
I'll take that as a compliment, coming from you.Roger said:
I don't know but even thinking about it puts you in the doolally category in my book.Casino_Royale said:
Why is it bonkers? You disagree, or you think I'm doolally?Roger said:
All totally bonkers! Which is why I still believe there's a chance this unstopable force will meet it's immovable object'. Who other than a complete nutter would care less about the colour of their passport unless it meant a longer wait in the passport queue (which it probably would)Casino_Royale said:
Once we have formally left, established a new UK-EU trade arrangement, have several new trade deals in the pipeline, and May can demonstrate table some quick wins with the new powers, it will shift even more.chestnut said:
And, as the excellent bar chart in the thread header shows, more people are moving towards Leave as the correct decision.HYUFD said:
As I said polling shows most voters want May to have a good relationship with the most powerful man in the worldRoger said:
As the linkage is becoming stronger between Brexit and Trumpism the more doubting 'cyclefrees' we're likely to see. A bit of overeagerness from Farage is one thing but a smiling Mrs May next to 'Torturer Trump' is a quite different kettle of fishTOPPING said:This could be a very tricky time for May.
Cosying up to a supporter of torture (because she has to) might alienate plenty of voters not to say Cons MPs.
Meanwhile despite the poll, it seems our very own @Cyclefree is a regretter. Not that we know how she voted so we should consider it on behalf of the country.
There are some very easy politically popular things May can do: bring back the blue passport, re-permitting the sale of loose items in pounds and ounces, announcing cuts in immigration, and giving an extra slug of cash to the NHS.
Getting through the next 2 years is the tough bit.
Do you want a bet a change in our passport is announced by GE2020?
£25 at evens that HMG announces the intent of, or implements, a new UK passport design by GE2020 which will have a dark blue/black colour and removes the EU from it.
Deal?0 -
Poor old Roger doesn't seem to have grasped that, and I particularly enjoyed him telling Sean of all people that he needs to travel to get a perspective.Casino_Royale said:
Most of the rest of us voted to Leave.Roger said:Garbage as usual! Why don't you join Casino and go and paint your passport blue. Most of the rest of us have got more interesting things to think about than your archaic idea of freedom and nation. Go to France for a month and get a perspective.
0 -
Technically not true. Turnout was not 100%.Casino_Royale said:
Most of the rest of us voted to Leave.Roger said:
Garbage as usual! Why don't you join Casino and go and paint your passport blue. Most of the rest of us have got more interesting things to think about than your archaic idea of freedom and nation. Go to France for a month and get a perspective.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:
My PB interest, as it were, in Brexit is in the assumptions behind it. In particular: That Brexit will really go ahead and make a difference. That the EU will make us a good deal because they need us at least as much as we need them. That Brexit is an opening to the world because the rest of the world will do more with us.foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.FF43 said:First poll I have seen that shows a proportion of Remainers embracing the fait accompli. I know they exist because am acquainted with a couple of them, including my wife. It will be interesting to see if that acceptance spreads to a consensus.
My assessment is (and always has been) that Brexit will go ahead and change everything; that the EU is actually unable to offer us a good deal and won't want to anyway; that Brexit will see less partnership with the rest of the world, not more. That raises the question of why are we doing this when there's going to be enormous disruption to end up worse than we started.
Which leads us to the most interesting assumption, that the British people accept leaving the EU as a settled decision. I think they would like to. The British have never really understood the EU.and are frustrated by it. On the other hand the rhetoric will stop and reality will kick in. People will realise Brexit isn't doing us any good. I think there's likely to be moves to tie Britain into the EU that don't involve full membership. When Theresa May says "Out means Out", that may not be how it turns out.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.0 -
The Express will have an orgasm. Which is a very good reason NOT to do it.logical_song said:
I think that they may well revert the passport. It costs very little and is symbolic. Pretty meaningless but the Daily Mail will like it.Casino_Royale said:
I'll take that as a compliment, coming from you.Roger said:
I don't know but even thinking about it puts you in the doolally category in my book.Casino_Royale said:
Why is it bonkers? You disagree, or you think I'm doolally?Roger said:
All totally bonkers! Which is why I still believe there's a chance this unstopable force will meet it's immovable object'. Who other than a complete nutter would care less about the colour of their passport unless it meant a longer wait in the passport queue (which it probably would)Casino_Royale said:
Once we have formally left, established a new UK-EU trade arrangement, have several new trade deals in the pipeline, and May can demonstrate table some quick wins with the new powers, it will shift even more.chestnut said:
And, as the excellent bar chart in the thread header shows, more people are moving towards Leave as the correct decision.HYUFD said:
As I said polling shows most voters want May to have a good relationship with the most powerful man in the worldRoger said:
As the linkage is becoming stronger between Brexit and Trumpism the more doubting 'cyclefrees' we're likely to see. A bit of overeagerness from Farage is one thing but a smiling Mrs May next to 'Torturer Trump' is a quite different kettle of fishTOPPING said:This could be a very tricky time for May.
Cosying up to a supporter of torture (because she has to) might alienate plenty of voters not to say Cons MPs.
Meanwhile despite the poll, it seems our very own @Cyclefree is a regretter. Not that we know how she voted so we should consider it on behalf of the country.
There are some very easy politically popular things May can do: bring back the blue passport, re-permitting the sale of loose items in pounds and ounces, announcing cuts in immigration, and giving an extra slug of cash to the NHS.
Getting through the next 2 years is the tough bit.
Do you want a bet a change in our passport is announced by GE2020?
£25 at evens that HMG announces the intent of, or implements, a new UK passport design by GE2020 which will have a dark blue/black colour and removes the EU from it.
Deal?0 -
In that case, we've got it all to come in mid-March. I'll start stocking up on dry foods.TheScreamingEagles said:
1) That prediction was commensurate with an immediate triggering of Article 50John_M said:
Poor baby. Memory lapses afflict us all as we age. Let me jog your memory.TheScreamingEagles said:
How long was I asleep for? Have we left the EU?Philip_Thompson said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564
2) Osborne underestimated the resilience of his own economic miracle.0 -
I think there's a difference with triggering Article 50 with no plan, no PM and political turmoil (i.e. 24th June last year) and triggering Article 50 with a worked up plan, parliamentary and civil service support - and with slightly cooler heads all round - which we'll have this year.TheScreamingEagles said:
1) That prediction was commensurate with an immediate triggering of Article 50John_M said:
Poor baby. Memory lapses afflict us all as we age. Let me jog your memory.TheScreamingEagles said:
How long was I asleep for? Have we left the EU?Philip_Thompson said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564
2) Osborne underestimated the resilience of his own economic miracle.
By the same token, the economy - and business investment - has continued since June despite the inevitability of Brexit, and the uncertainty over precisely which form it will take.0 -
Extraordinary Rendition is nothing new either - after the English abolished torture in 1640 they occasionally got round it by sending prisoners to Scotland where torture was still practiced:
When the jurisdiction of the Star Chamber was abolished in England prisoners were transferred to Scotland so that they could be forced by the Scots Privy Council which still used torture to provide information to the authorities. This is illustrated by the case of Robert Baillie of Jerviswood whose trial took place in Edinburgh in December 1684. .....Robert Baillie had been named by William Spence, who was suspected of being involved in plotting a rebellion against the government of Charles II, as one of his co-conspirators. Spence gave this information having been arrested in London and taken to Edinburgh, where he was tortured.
https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200506/ldjudgmt/jd051208/aand.pdf0 -
I recently read it. I was disturbed by your female VO. Enjoy the George V.SeanT said:
Funnily enough, I am actually in Paris for a week or so in March, where my French publishers are launching the new S K Tremayne, La Menace, and they want me to do publicity, signings etc. Le Doute (the Ice Twins) was a big hit over there.Roger said:
Garbage as usual! Why don't you join Casino and go and paint your passport blue. Most of the rest of us have got more interesting things to think about than your archaic idea of freedom and nation. Go to France for a month and get a perspective.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:
My assessment is (and always has been) that Brexit will go ahead and change everything; that the EU is actually unable to offer us a good deal and won't want to anyway; that Brexit will see less partnership with the rest of the world, not more. That raises the question of why are we doing this when there's going to be enormous disruption to end up worse than we started.foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.FF43 said:First poll I have seen that shows a proportion of Remainers embracing the fait accompli. I know they exist because am acquainted with a couple of them, including my wife. It will be interesting to see if that acceptance spreads to a consensus.
Which leads us to the most interesting assumption, that the British people accept leaving the EU as a settled decision. I think they would like to. The British have never really understood the EU.and are frustrated by it. On the other hand the rhetoric will stop and reality will kick in. People will realise Brexit isn't doing us any good. I think there's likely to be moves to tie Britain into the EU that don't involve full membership. When Theresa May says "Out means Out", that may not be how it turns out.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.
https://www.amazon.fr/S-K-Tremayne/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i:aps,k:S.K. Tremayne
i think they're putting me up in the George V or something ridiculous. I'll let you know if I get any perspective from my suite.0 -
Influence is not the same as sovereignty. It might be well worth trading some of the latter for some of the former - the UK's membership of NATO rests on that principle perhaps even more than the membership of the EU - but the idea that Britain's EU laws are not substantially written by foreigners is incontestable given the composition of the EP and Council of Ministers.williamglenn said:
But what's this? An elected British politician chairs the EU committee on the single market? Surely that can't be right?Philip_Thompson said:No we didn't not when our laws were written by foreigners that we didn't elect.
https://twitter.com/vickyford/status/8241770774737100830 -
Mr. T, reminds me a bit of that lovely MTV video about how white guys can be better in 2017.0
-
"so far"CarlottaVance said:Someone hasn't got the memo:
@BBCnormans No sign of post referendum economic slump so far with third successive quarter of steady growth at 0.6%0 -
Surely passports would be the easiest way of keeping everyone happy.
By default blue passports are issued, but for an extra 50 quid say you can keep the red one and freedom of movement within Europe.
Since it is elective and costs a bit I think most people would go for the blue ones. Perhaps half a million people would go for red ones ?
Diehard leavers wouldn't... or would they
? 0 -
Osborne and the BoE, two peas in the same pod.Scott_P said:Philip_Thompson said:Osborne claimed the mere act of voting to leave the EU would cause a DIY recession.
If the British people vote to leave, there is only one way to bring that about, namely to trigger article 50 of the treaties and begin the process of exit, and the British people would rightly expect that to start straight away.
Telegraph - "The Bank of England has almost doubled its economic growth forecast for 2017 and scrapped its planned interest rate cut, in a dramatic U-turn on its earlier warnings that the economy would suffer a severe post-referendum crunch."0 -
There's a counter-intuitive phenomenon whereby people feel happier at work if they know their boss earns a lot more than them. The explanation is that it gives them something to aspire to that they could conceivably picture themselves attaining, even if unrealistic.david_herdson said:- Could Britain's parliament amend or introduce legislation to reverse judicial decisions from the CJEU that it didn't like?
I wonder if the same effect doesn't manifest itself in this attitude. Most people with an interest in politics could imagine themselves as an MP, and might even dream of what they'd do as PM, but serving on the European Commission or being involved in Brussels generally seems so remote that most, even the politically engaged, think that it's not for the likes of them.0 -
I feel sorry for May today. She has an impossible job. Hope the benefits of rushing in outweigh the the benefits of a more judicious approach.
It would have been interesting to have seen Thatcher handle Trump. I can't help but think she would have hated him, but got the better of him. Not sure May is quite that clever.
0 -
Utter misunderstanding of the pre-WWII situation and complete failure of analogy. But apart from that, good point.Pong said:
Said Chamberlain.Casino_Royale said:
His narcissism and self-centred personality demand that we flatter him - because such individuals are susceptible to flattery, and it's the obvious diplomatic strategy.Scott_P said:
Yes, it might come to nothing, in which case we can change course, but it is more likely to work to our advantage.0 -
And it never is.Jonathan said:
Technically not true. Turnout was not 100%.Casino_Royale said:
Most of the rest of us voted to Leave.Roger said:
Garbage as usual! Why don't you join Casino and go and paint your passport blue. Most of the rest of us have got more interesting things to think about than your archaic idea of freedom and nation. Go to France for a month and get a perspective.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:
My assessment is (and always has been) that Brexit will go ahead and change everything; that the EU is actually unable to offer us a good deal and won't want to anyway; that Brexit will see less partnership with the rest of the world, not more. That raises the question of why are we doing this when there's going to be enormous disruption to end up worse than we started.foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.FF43 said:First poll I have seen that shows a proportion of Remainers embracing the fait accompli. I know they exist because am acquainted with a couple of them, including my wife. It will be interesting to see if that acceptance spreads to a consensus.
Which leads us to the most interesting assumption, that the British people accept leaving the EU as a settled decision. I think they would like to. The British have never really understood the EU.and are frustrated by it. On the other hand the rhetoric will stop and reality will kick in. People will realise Brexit isn't doing us any good. I think there's likely to be moves to tie Britain into the EU that don't involve full membership. When Theresa May says "Out means Out", that may not be how it turns out.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.
But it was an absolute majority, and the largest number of votes cast in UK history for anything. Ever.
Turnout didn't quite hit 1950s GE levels of c.80%, or SindyRef levels of 85%, but it (a) wasn't quite viewed as existential for the nation, and, (b) we live in very different times.0 -
We were still carrying out public hangings in the 1860s. I think we've moved on a bit from those days!CarlottaVance said:Extraordinary Rendition is nothing new either - after the English abolished torture in 1640 they occasionally got round it by sending prisoners to Scotland where torture was still practiced:
When the jurisdiction of the Star Chamber was abolished in England prisoners were transferred to Scotland so that they could be forced by the Scots Privy Council which still used torture to provide information to the authorities. This is illustrated by the case of Robert Baillie of Jerviswood whose trial took place in Edinburgh in December 1684. .....Robert Baillie had been named by William Spence, who was suspected of being involved in plotting a rebellion against the government of Charles II, as one of his co-conspirators. Spence gave this information having been arrested in London and taken to Edinburgh, where he was tortured.
https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200506/ldjudgmt/jd051208/aand.pdf0 -
Reading TSE's report on the PLP I very much suspect it's sauve qui peutMorris_Dancer said:I wonder what unforeseen consequences of the by-elections might be. If Labour loses one or both seats, the consensus would seem to be it's bad for Corbyn. But what if it deters incumbent Labour MPs from resigning, for fear they'll cost the party (and the party is longer term than the leader)?
0 -
Opinium had Leave 51/49, Yougov's had 49/51.Casino_Royale said:
True. Was there a spread between the two in predicting the referendum result?AlastairMeeks said:Has anyone commented that YouGov's results on "right result/wrong result" in its regular polls have been consistently different from that in this poll?
It doesn't mean YouGov is right or Opinium is wrong, but the variance should be noted.0 -
"Look at the poll."SeanT said:
Look at the poll. The nation agrees with me. Suck it up, furrycup.TOPPING said:
More bed wetting from you.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:
My PB interest, as it were, in Brexit is in the assumptions behind it. In particular: That Brexit will really go ahead and make a difference. That the EU will make us a good deal because they need us at least as much as we need them. That Brexit is an opening to the world because the rest of the world will do more with us.foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.FF43 said:First poll I have seen that shows a proportion of Remainers embracing the fait accompli. I know they exist because am acquainted with a couple of them, including my wife. It will be interesting to see if that acceptance spreads to a consensus.
My assessment is (and always has been) that Brexit will go ahead and change everything; that the EU is actually unable to offer us a good deal and won't want to anyway; that Brexit will see less partnership with the rest of the world, not more. That raises the question of why are we doing this when there's going to be enormous disruption to end up worse than we started.
Which leads us to the most interesting assumption, that the British people accept leaving the EU as a settled decision. I think they would like to. The British have never really understood the EU.and are frustrated by it. On the other hand the rhetoric will stop and reality will kick in. People will realise Brexit isn't doing us any good. I think there's likely to be moves to tie Britain into the EU that don't involve full membership. When Theresa May says "Out means Out", that may not be how it turns out.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.
We had all the freedom and democracy and sovereignty in the world before we voted to leave.
You just wanted someone to blame because you are weak.
ROTFLMAO. As they say.0 -
They need to repeal the Second Amendment.SeanT said:This is an actual genuine first line from a news story.
"A 12-year-old girl was among six people shot on Wednesday evening during a vigil in Chicago for a gunshot victim, local media said,"
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-chicago-shooting-idUSKBN15A0S7
Trump is clearly a crazed loon, but he's right about that American Carnage. They need to send in the army.0 -
The trouble with identity politics is that it works both ways.SeanT said:
Ditto in America, if you look at that video of the Democrat candidate for thingummy saying her job is to "shut white people up"HYUFD said:
Indeed but as long as they keep up that attitude the white working class will not be coming back to them anytime soonJohn_M said:
There's no doubt that some Leave voters are ignorant oiks, if that's how you want to describe DEs. Poor, uneducated and unlikely to have grasped the significance of the EMA to the UK pharma industry and so forth. They're still entitled to vote as they see fit.HYUFD said:
It is the refusal of some Remoaners and Hillary voters to see Leave and Trump voters as anything other than ignorant oiks which goes some way to explain why they lostRoger said:
You missed the word 'decent'HYUFD said:
NYC and LA residents may not be too happy but given 30 out of 50 states backed Trump I expect their residents will be very happy she is meeting himTheScreamingEagles said:I think Professor Schama has overdosed on the hyperbole pills this morning
https://twitter.com/simon_schama/status/824526770913341440
We should be grateful. A century ago the Left were flirting with eugenics. At least they've dialled it back to de haut en bas disdain.
The slow intentional suicide of the Left, in the West, thanks to an insane concentration on nauseating identity politics, will make several great books in a couple of decades
A truly intelligent Left would be working to make race, gender and sexuality facts/preferences a societal irrelevance.0 -
Sure it's not a big deal. But it is a boring fact, maybe a technical fact, that the statement "most people voted Leave" is not true.Casino_Royale said:
And it never is.Jonathan said:
Technically not true. Turnout was not 100%.Casino_Royale said:
Most of the rest of us voted to Leave.Roger said:
Garbage as usual! Why don't you join Casino and go and paint your passport blue. Most of the rest of us have got more interesting things to think about than your archaic idea of freedom and nation. Go to France for a month and get a perspective.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:
My assessment is (and always has been) that Brexit will go ahead and change everything; that the EU is actually unable to offer us a good deal and won't want to anyway; that Brexit will see less partnership with the rest of the world, not more. That raises the question of why are we doing this when there's going to be enormous disruption to end up worse than we started.foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.FF43 said:First poll I have seen that shows a proportion of Remainers embracing the fait accompli. I know they exist because am acquainted with a couple of them, including my wife. It will be interesting to see if that acceptance spreads to a consensus.
Which leads us to the most interesting assumption, that the British people accept leaving the EU as a settled decision. I think they would like to. The British have never really understood the EU.and are frustrated by it. On the other hand the rhetoric will stop and reality will kick in. People will realise Brexit isn't doing us any good. I think there's likely to be moves to tie Britain into the EU that don't involve full membership. When Theresa May says "Out means Out", that may not be how it turns out.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.
But it was an absolute majority, and the largest number of votes cast in UK history for anything. Ever.
Turnout didn't quite hit 1950s GE levels of c.80%, or SindyRef levels of 85%, but it (a) wasn't quite viewed as existential for the nation, and, (b) we live in very different times.0 -
It's contestable based on how you define your identity. Our 'problem' is that we think a Frenchman is more foreign than an Australian.david_herdson said:the idea that Britain's EU laws are not substantially written by foreigners is incontestable
Whether right or wrong, when people say we're just 'different', it's this that they really mean.0 -
Yes, the white working class are probably lost to them now if they are to win again it will be through a combination of the ethnic minority vote and white graduatesSeanT said:
Ditto in America, if you look at that video of the Democrat candidate for thingummy saying her job is to "shut white people up"HYUFD said:
Indeed but as long as they keep up that attitude the white working class will not be coming back to them anytime soonJohn_M said:
There's no doubt that some Leave voters are ignorant oiks, if that's how you want to describe DEs. Poor, uneducated and unlikely to have grasped the significance of the EMA to the UK pharma industry and so forth. They're still entitled to vote as they see fit.HYUFD said:
It is the refusal of some Remoaners and Hillary voters to see Leave and Trump voters as anything other than ignorant oiks which goes some way to explain why they lostRoger said:
You missed the word 'decent'HYUFD said:
NYC and LA residents may not be too happy but given 30 out of 50 states backed Trump I expect their residents will be very happy she is meeting himTheScreamingEagles said:I think Professor Schama has overdosed on the hyperbole pills this morning
https://twitter.com/simon_schama/status/824526770913341440
We should be grateful. A century ago the Left were flirting with eugenics. At least they've dialled it back to de haut en bas disdain.
The slow intentional suicide of the Left, in the West, thanks to an insane concentration on nauseating identity politics, will make several great books in a couple of decades0 -
And that is related to the point I made, how?williamglenn said:
There's a counter-intuitive phenomenon whereby people feel happier at work if they know their boss earns a lot more than them. The explanation is that it gives them something to aspire to that they could conceivably picture themselves attaining, even if unrealistic.david_herdson said:- Could Britain's parliament amend or introduce legislation to reverse judicial decisions from the CJEU that it didn't like?
I wonder if the same effect doesn't manifest itself in this attitude. Most people with an interest in politics could imagine themselves as an MP, and might even dream of what they'd do as PM, but serving on the European Commission or being involved in Brussels generally seems so remote that most, even the politically engaged, think that it's not for the likes of them.
Simple question for you on that point of sovereignty: how could Britain's politicians or population, by themselves, reverse a decision of the CJEU that they don't like?0 -
That was a corker - I'd my hand over my mouth in horror. What were they thinking?!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. T, reminds me a bit of that lovely MTV video about how white guys can be better in 2017.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuOGf1iuLEA0 -
Mr. T, is it a one-off renewal or can they do so forever?0
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It's very nice - stayed there once for a birthday and even got them to wangle me a reservation at Le Cinq which is always booked out for months in advance - after they noticed it was my birthday they sent up champagne & cake.....SeanT said:
i think they're putting me up in the George V or something ridiculous. I'll let you know if I get any perspective from my suite.Roger said:
Garbage as usual! Why don't you join Casino and go and paint your passport blue. Most of the rest of us have got more interesting things to think about than your archaic idea of freedom and nation. Go to France for a month and get a perspective.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:
My PB interest, as it were, in Brexit is in the assumptions behind it. In particular: That Brexit will really go ahead and make a difference. That the EU will make us a good deal because they need us at least as much as we need them. That Brexit is an opening to the world because the rest of the world will do more with us.foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.FF43 said:First poll I have seen that shows a proportion of Remainers embracing the fait accompli. I know they exist because am acquainted with a couple of them, including my wife. It will be interesting to see if that acceptance spreads to a consensus.
My assessment is (and always has been) that Brexit will go ahead and change everything; that the EU is actually unable to offer us a good deal and won't want to anyway; that Brexit will see less partnership with the rest of the world, not more. That raises the question of why are we doing this when there's going to be enormous disruption to end up worse than we started.
likely to be moves to tie Britain into the EU that don't involve full membership. When Theresa May says "Out means Out", that may not be how it turns out.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.
Edit - it was also the subject of the best wind up I've ever seen - junior manager talking to (very status conscious) senior manager from a different department on the flight to Paris.
'My secretary is useless. I prefer Holiday Inn, but she's booked me into a hotel called the George Vee - have you ever heard of it?"0 -
That would be a debatable point; indeed, one I'd have sympathy with. but it's still incompatible with his earlier assertion that "We had all the freedom and democracy and sovereignty in the world before we voted to leave."Casino_Royale said:
I think Topping's view is - which I respect, but vehemently disagree with - is that, yes, we couldn't do any of that, but we could chip in a small say at a much higher international level, and it wasn't a big deal particularly next to the economic costs of saying "No".david_herdson said:
With respect, and I say this as an at-the-time Remainer and federalist, that's complete bunk.TOPPING said:
More bed wetting from you.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.
We had all the freedom and democracy and sovereignty in the world before we voted to leave.
You just wanted someone to blame because you are weak.
- Could Britain choose its own immigration policy?
- Could Britain set its own regulations for industry, goods or services?
- Could Britain set its own taxes as it chose?
- Was the European government elected and accountable according to usual democratic norms?
- Could Britain's parliament amend or introduce legislation to reverse judicial decisions from the CJEU that it didn't like?
There were and are certainly advantages to EU membership but to pretend that there was no cost in sovereignty or no democratic deficit is the sort of facile nonsense that lost the EU and its supporters credibility.0 -
Is that committee only made of Brits we elect or can a majority of foreigners pass bills we don't want?williamglenn said:
But what's this? An elected British politician chairs the EU committee on the single market? Surely that can't be right?Philip_Thompson said:No we didn't not when our laws were written by foreigners that we didn't elect.
https://twitter.com/vickyford/status/8241770774737100830 -
The Democrats were only ~ 0.2% or so away from taking the election, the notion that somehow they are 'forever lost' is ridiculous - albeit I do think Trump will win a second term.HYUFD said:
Yes, the white working class are probably lost to them now if they are to win again it will be through a combination of the ethnic minority vote and white graduatesSeanT said:
Ditto in America, if you look at that video of the Democrat candidate for thingummy saying her job is to "shut white people up"HYUFD said:
Indeed but as long as they keep up that attitude the white working class will not be coming back to them anytime soonJohn_M said:
There's no doubt that some Leave voters are ignorant oiks, if that's how you want to describe DEs. Poor, uneducated and unlikely to have grasped the significance of the EMA to the UK pharma industry and so forth. They're still entitled to vote as they see fit.HYUFD said:
It is the refusal of some Remoaners and Hillary voters to see Leave and Trump voters as anything other than ignorant oiks which goes some way to explain why they lostRoger said:
You missed the word 'decent'HYUFD said:
NYC and LA residents may not be too happy but given 30 out of 50 states backed Trump I expect their residents will be very happy she is meeting himTheScreamingEagles said:I think Professor Schama has overdosed on the hyperbole pills this morning
https://twitter.com/simon_schama/status/824526770913341440
We should be grateful. A century ago the Left were flirting with eugenics. At least they've dialled it back to de haut en bas disdain.
The slow intentional suicide of the Left, in the West, thanks to an insane concentration on nauseating identity politics, will make several great books in a couple of decades
If the Democrats had won ~ 40% or so of the WWC they'd have won ! Trump got 63% or so from memory.0 -
You took a really crap deal from America over a much better deal from Europe...SeanT said:We fucked up the film rights. We gave it to a Warner Bros linked company in LA (for nice money, admittedly) but they've just dithered, got an OK script, now talking to an OK-ish director, 18 months down the line....
Meanwhile we've had some really amazing people in Europe saying they really want to make it, but the Yanks are renewing the option (as is there right) so we're stuck.
The first circles of Development Hell.
Now, where I have heard that recently?0 -
The design (text and art) of the passport will change simply because it has to if we are no longer in the EU, but the physical characteristics are standardised by the ICAO and those are unlikely to change.John_M said:The Express will have an orgasm. Which is a very good reason NOT to do it.
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Miss Plato, that white guys are inherently wicked. It's a fun sort of racist/misandrist cocktail of politically correct prejudice.
F1: still thinking about it, but may shove a few pounds on Bottas at 6 (each) to get either four or five or more wins this season. Rosberg achieved that every year he was Hamilton's team mate (well, after the regulations changed).
Also, there's a rumour Ecclestone will set up a rival break-away series.0 -
For well-off people such as yourself - people who will be shielded from any downsides of Brexit - that may well be the case. Further down the line, we will see whether that remains so for those who find their wages have not gone up, that their job security has decreased and that public spending has been cut. "Forget about all that, the government elected by 37% of the electorate is now free to reduce maternity leave and make it easier for your boss to fire you, and we can export more high-end cheese to the US, so rejoice," may not be the slam-dunk you think it is.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:
My PB interest, as it were, in Brexit is in the assumptions behind it. In particular: That Brexit will really go ahead and make a difference. That the EU will make us a good deal because they need us at least as much as we need them. That Brexit is an opening to the world because the rest of the world will do more with us.foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.FF43 said:First poll I have seen that shows a proportion of Remainers embracing the fait accompli. I know they exist because am acquainted with a couple of them, including my wife. It will be interesting to see if that acceptance spreads to a consensus.
My assessment is (and always has been) that Brexit will go ahead and change everything; that the EU is actually unable to offer us a good deal and won't want to anyway; that Brexit will see less partnership with the rest of the world, not more. That raises the question of why are we doing this when there's going to be enormous disruption to end up worse than we started.
Which leads us to the most interesting assumption, that the British people accept leaving the EU as a settled decision. I think they would like to. The British have never really understood the EU.and are frustrated by it. On the other hand the rhetoric will stop and reality will kick in. People will realise Brexit isn't doing us any good. I think there's likely to be moves to tie Britain into the EU that don't involve full membership. When Theresa May says "Out means Out", that may not be how it turns out.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.
0 -
I can get better than 3/1 with William Hill on such a bet, so no ta.SeanT said:
OK, do you want a bet on what happens on the triggering of A50 in March?TheScreamingEagles said:
1) That prediction was commensurate with an immediate triggering of Article 50John_M said:
Poor baby. Memory lapses afflict us all as we age. Let me jog your memory.TheScreamingEagles said:
How long was I asleep for? Have we left the EU?Philip_Thompson said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36355564
2) Osborne underestimated the resilience of his own economic miracle.
I bet you £1000 there won't be an immediate recession as predicted by the Treasury, etc
Up for it?0 -
The Labour MP who suggested Israel is the 51st state wasn't wrong
http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-say-trump-freezes-obamas-last-minute-221-million-payout/0 -
The vast majority of Americans in whatever state will have no idea who she is and no interest in the meeting.HYUFD said:
NYC and LA residents may not be too happy but given 30 out of 50 states backed Trump I expect their residents will be very happy she is meeting himTheScreamingEagles said:I think Professor Schama has overdosed on the hyperbole pills this morning
https://twitter.com/simon_schama/status/824526770913341440
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Most people who voted in the EU referendum voted Leave.Jonathan said:
Sure it's not a big deal. But it is a boring fact, maybe a technical fact, that the statement "most people voted Leave" is not true.Casino_Royale said:
And it never is.Jonathan said:
Technically not true. Turnout was not 100%.Casino_Royale said:
Most of the rest of us voted to Leave.Roger said:
Garbage as usual! Why don't you join Casino and go and paint your passport blue. Most of the rest of us have got more interesting things to think about than your archaic idea of freedom and nation. Go to France for a month and get a perspective.SeanT said:
You still don't get it. I don't think you ever will. You (and Southam and Topping and the rest of you dimwits) think it's all about trade and money.FF43 said:foxinsoxuk said:
There is a slight movement in that direction, but not much 7 months on, before the real process starts. It is going to be a divided nation for the foreaable, with not much margin if it all goes tits up.FF43 said:First poll I have seen that shows a proportion of Remainers embracing the fait accompli. I know they exist because am acquainted with a couple of them, including my wife. It will be interesting to see if that acceptance spreads to a consensus.
It isn't (and nor, by the way, is the EU, a largely political project). Brexit is about democracy and self-government and freedom. It's about us as a nation.
But it was an absolute majority, and the largest number of votes cast in UK history for anything. Ever.
Turnout didn't quite hit 1950s GE levels of c.80%, or SindyRef levels of 85%, but it (a) wasn't quite viewed as existential for the nation, and, (b) we live in very different times.
Those who didn't.. don't count.
This is not a criticism aimed at you, but it has tickled me how various people (funnily enough, all Remainers) have chopped and changed the numbers and thresholds over the last 7 months trying to construct an arithmetic way of delegitimising the result.
The only argument I'd have (some) sympathy with is that we're getting our Brexit fairly good & hard, despite the 48%. But I think polling shows why May will get away with it.
A narrow win can still be a very decisive one.0 -
That's waffle.williamglenn said:
It's contestable based on how you define your identity. Our 'problem' is that we think a Frenchman is more foreign than an Australian.david_herdson said:the idea that Britain's EU laws are not substantially written by foreigners is incontestable
Whether right or wrong, when people say we're just 'different', it's this that they really mean.
When I say 'foreigners' in the context of UK sovereignty, I mean 'people who are not UK citizens'. The original point was that the UK not only had all the sovereignty it needed but all the sovereignty it could have. The former is a debatable point; the latter is just daft.0 -
Westminster voting intention:
CON: 40% (-2)
LAB: 24% (-1)
UKIP: 14% (+2)
LDEM: 10% (-1)
(via YouGov / this week)0 -
Indeed. Brexit was saddled with a lot of romantic twaddle divorced from the brutal realities of C21.SouthamObserver said:
For well-off people such as yourself - people who will be shielded from any downsides of Brexit - that may well be the case. Further down the line, we will see whether that remains so for those who find their wages have not gone up, that their job security has decreased and that public spending has been cut. "Forget about all that, the government elected by 37% of the electorate is now free to reduce maternity leave and make it easier for your boss to fire you, and we can export more high-end cheese to the US, so rejoice," may not be the slam-dunk you think it is.
Sadly, imagery from WW2 is not going to help us solve the problems of globalisation, automation and an ageing population.
Brexit is the ultimate white elephant.0 -
Would you stick all your eggs in an 86-year old basket?Morris_Dancer said:Miss Plato, that white guys are inherently wicked. It's a fun sort of racist/misandrist cocktail of politically correct prejudice.
F1: still thinking about it, but may shove a few pounds on Bottas at 6 (each) to get either four or five or more wins this season. Rosberg achieved that every year he was Hamilton's team mate (well, after the regulations changed).
Also, there's a rumour Ecclestone will set up a rival break-away series.0
This discussion has been closed.