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  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    edited January 2017
    TOPPING said:

    @isam

    "It is also clear from the figure that it was not simply an effect of the recession: it has been a consistent trend over the past 20 years."

    "However, inequality in their net income – that is, after direct taxes have been paid and state benefits received – did not rise. This was partly the result of deliberate policy decisions, and in particular the large expansion of tax credits in the late 1990s and 2000s, which boosted the income of low-income working households. "

    "This is largely because weekly earnings inequality among men rose: partly because hourly wages grew faster towards the top than at the middle and bottom of the distribution."

    So a paper talking about household income inequality explains that the proportion of working men of the lowest income bracket who are doing part time work (and those without children, thus expelling the childcare issue) has increased.

    But it says nowhere why. I control F-ed "immigration" and results came there none.

    So it seems to be down to you to intuit that the trend (over the past 20 years) is because of immigration.

    I say the mass importation of cheap unskilled labour on an unprecedented scale is not going to help when the lowest paid are losing wages and hours. It seems so obvious that it doesn't need saying, but we are allowed to disagree
  • Sandpit
    Sandpit Posts: 56,045
    Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: David Davis will make a statement to Commons but some MPs trying to force PM to go instead -anger simmering that parliament being 'excluded'

    *cough*Sovereignty*cough*

    To be perfectly fair, I don't understand why the PM is not making her speech in Parliament. That is surely the appropriate place for a major policy announcement from the government?
  • Sandpit
    Sandpit Posts: 56,045
    rkrkrk said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    @edmundintokyo @TOPPING

    People such as yourselves are supply and demand deniers, so I doubt anything can change your minds, but what is the point of cheap Labour if it doesn't bring down the cost of Labour?

    Sam read the research. We can have a good discussion about it afterwards. It might not make you feel as good as some cartoon men but it is interesting nevertheless.
    The saddest thing about your posts is that you must believe your patronising tone is effective.
    Don't be sad. You linked to a 15-second cartoon that said something about part-time working. I linked to a paper by the NIESR (which in turn referenced other papers) about the effect of immigration on wages.

    You presumably linked to your cartoon to support your point; I linked to the research to support mine.

    What's patronising about that?
    Your whole tone is always vey patronising. I put it down to losing the ref and needing to feel superior.

    Calling it a cartoon to undermine the point is one example. The NIESR research is something I have linked to in the past to prove my point, and I used it because it is Jonathan Portes is a very pro EU person and I didn't want to seem as though I only used the views of people on my side.

    A good thing in debate, Topping, is to use sources that don't always agree with you.
    Can you link to the IFS research which underpins the cartoon (what else is it?). I will have a read.
    I am sure you have the ability to do this yourself, but anyway

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jan/13/low-paid-men-in-uk-four-times-more-likely-to-be-working-part-time-than-in-1990s

    https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/8849
    Do either of those links talk about immigration?
    If they did I must have missed it...?
    I wish people would stop being disingenuous. iSam is making a fairly straightforward point. You can agree or disagree, or you can accept it up to a point.
    I'm not being disingenuous... I thought he might have linked to the wrong study or I might have missed something in my skim read.

    I was expecting to read something linking immigration to lower wages!
    Remember that at the bottom end of the scale, wages are set by law rather than being decided by the free market.
  • rcs1000
    rcs1000 Posts: 60,716
    Casino_Royale said:

    Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: Hearing a number of MPs tabling urgent questions on May's EU plan

    Not that I want to encourage you, but this speech will set the cat amongst the pigeons.

    The interesting question, now, is how will the Brexit bill pass through parliament, and with what amendments.

    Lib Dems/SNP will all vote "no", a few others from NI parties, but the big question is how Labour splits: against, for, and abstentions.

    (Incidentally, I expect it to pass anyway because 300 Tories, 10 Labour Leavers and DUP/Carswell will vote for it)
    Not even all the LDs will vote against. I believe at least three of the nine have said they will not oppose it. (I don't know if that means abstention or support.)
  • ReggieCide
    ReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    It seems to me to be blindingly obvious that if you're losing against your opponent then replacing your fighter with someone more proficient improves your chances of winning. For Labour this seems to be a masterstroke too far.
  • rcs1000
    rcs1000 Posts: 60,716
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: David Davis will make a statement to Commons but some MPs trying to force PM to go instead -anger simmering that parliament being 'excluded'

    *cough*Sovereignty*cough*

    To be perfectly fair, I don't understand why the PM is not making her speech in Parliament. That is surely the appropriate place for a major policy announcement from the government?
    It is indeed. It should have been given in Parliament.
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    Sandpit said:

    To be perfectly fair, I don't understand why the PM is not making her speech in Parliament.

    Because it raises a whole bunch of awkward questions to which she has no answers
  • rcs1000
    rcs1000 Posts: 60,716
    @Casino

    I would be very surprised if there was a majority of less than 450 for the Brexit Bill.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,686
    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Essexit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Essexit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Essexit said:

    HYUFD said:

    williamglenn said:

    http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/the_problem_with_the_english_england_doesn_t_want_to_be_just_another_member_of_a_team_1_4851882

    Europhobia was shown by the referendum to be a specifically English psychosis, the narcissistic outcome of a specifically English crisis of identity.

    Wales also voted Leave
    "The pattern of voting showed up a colossal divergence between England, with its Welsh appendage, on the one hand, and Scotland and Northern Ireland on the other."

    The author sounds a nice chap.
    I can't say I find his amateur psychoanalysis very persuasive.
    Unsurprising, he works in the MML faculty: http://www.mml.cam.ac.uk/professor-nicholas-boyle

    But he has 'a degree', which qualifies him to pontificate on the mental state of Europe's lager louts, the English. In fact it has just granted him the ability to talk out of his arse with zero self-awareness.
    Fen-Poly - what do you expect?
    Oi! I went to that Fen-Poly! And you'll incur TSE's wrath now.
    You are forgiven, but TSE labours under the delusion that its the best university in the world while any fule no that its Cowley Tec - just ask the Prime Minister, or her predecessor, or the one before the one before that.....
    The Complete University Guide 2017’s rankings have been topped by Cambridge and the Other Place.

    https://www.thetab.com/uk/cambridge/2016/04/25/cambridge-university-rankings-74558/amp
    Ack my uni has slipped to 12th :(
    Woah. What happened to Bristol?
  • CarlottaVance
    CarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    matt said:




    CarlottaVance said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    So now that it is confirmed that we are leaving the customs union, that means a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic?

    I'm in favour of a hard border, given people from that island have caused more terrorism on the mainland than anyone else.

    Gawd, I'm becoming more pro Brexit by the minute.

    The Common Travel Area dates back 80 odd years, and we didn't have a customs union with Ireland for much of that time.
    Does the Republic's membership of the EU preclude the CTA being restarted ?
    The CTA hasn't been stopped - it's still in place.
    In theory yes. In practice passports are checked at the main Irish airports and equally I've had my passport checked flying into the UK.
    At Gatwick Irish & Channel Islands passengers bypass passport control and just have their boarding cards checked......
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,686
    edited January 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    @Casino

    I would be very surprised if there was a majority of less than 450 for the Brexit Bill.

    It depends on whether Labour MPs actively vote *for* it, or abstain though.

    Technically you're correct either way: if 300 Tories + 10 others + 140 Labour MPs vote for it, then its 450 votes to 200 (a mixture of probably 100 or so against and 100 abstentions)

    But it could also be passed by only 350 to 300 (300 Tories + 10 others + 40 Labour MPs) with 100 votes against, but almost 200 abstentions - i.e. the vast bulk of Labour MPs abstaining.

    In reality, I expect (Labour) to add a couple of amendments to it, particularly because Kier is competent, and the bill will pass. But, if these relate to the customs union and single market - supported by some Tories - May is in trouble.
  • Alanbrooke
    Alanbrooke Posts: 25,926
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    it's bookending

    MT brought us in and TM takes us out
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: David Davis will make a statement to Commons but some MPs trying to force PM to go instead -anger simmering that parliament being 'excluded'

    *cough*Sovereignty*cough*

    To be perfectly fair, I don't understand why the PM is not making her speech in Parliament. That is surely the appropriate place for a major policy announcement from the government?
    Because she's a crap performer in The Conmons.

    Cluck Cluck Cluck
  • CarlottaVance
    CarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    What has the Single Market become?
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,686
    Scott_P said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    (Incidentally, I expect it to pass anyway because 300 Tories will vote for it)

    The ones who stood on this manifesto?

    https://twitter.com/pickardje/status/821305607370276866
    Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwn.
  • Pulpstar
    Pulpstar Posts: 79,813
    rcs1000 said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: Hearing a number of MPs tabling urgent questions on May's EU plan

    Not that I want to encourage you, but this speech will set the cat amongst the pigeons.

    The interesting question, now, is how will the Brexit bill pass through parliament, and with what amendments.

    Lib Dems/SNP will all vote "no", a few others from NI parties, but the big question is how Labour splits: against, for, and abstentions.

    (Incidentally, I expect it to pass anyway because 300 Tories, 10 Labour Leavers and DUP/Carswell will vote for it)
    Not even all the LDs will vote against. I believe at least three of the nine have said they will not oppose it. (I don't know if that means abstention or support.)
    Abstention is the obvious choice for any smart MP unbound by a whip here:

    If Brexit goes right you can say "I did not oppose Brexit"
    If Brexit goes wrong you can say "I did not vote for Brexit"
  • John_M
    John_M Posts: 7,503
    edited January 2017
    CarlottaVance said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    What has the Single Market become?
    Quite. While Leavers motives vary wildly, it's the political integration of the EU I object to, not the Single Market. I'm probably just a pound shop Hammond; other than my vote in EUref, I didn't disagree with anything he said in his Die Welt interview.
  • AlastairMeeks
    AlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Scott_P said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    (Incidentally, I expect it to pass anyway because 300 Tories will vote for it)

    The ones who stood on this manifesto?

    https://twitter.com/pickardje/status/821305607370276866
    Where that is potentially relevant is the House of Lords. Their lordships might very well feel that Brexit might mean Brexit but that manifesto commitments also mean manifesto commitments, and that the government is going to have to make more of an effort to square the circle.

    I don't think that they should take this line, but they might.
  • Theuniondivvie
    Theuniondivvie Posts: 44,327
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

  • Pong
    Pong Posts: 4,693
    edited January 2017
    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    I'll vote for that.

    Who wouldn't?
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Scott_P said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    (Incidentally, I expect it to pass anyway because 300 Tories will vote for it)

    The ones who stood on this manifesto?

    https://twitter.com/pickardje/status/821305607370276866
    Where that is potentially relevant is the House of Lords. Their lordships might very well feel that Brexit might mean Brexit but that manifesto commitments also mean manifesto commitments, and that the government is going to have to make more of an effort to square the circle.

    I don't think that they should take this line, but they might.
    I feel the need to do a thread on the Salisbury-Addison convention.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,686
    CarlottaVance said:

    matt said:




    CarlottaVance said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    So now that it is confirmed that we are leaving the customs union, that means a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic?

    I'm in favour of a hard border, given people from that island have caused more terrorism on the mainland than anyone else.

    Gawd, I'm becoming more pro Brexit by the minute.

    The Common Travel Area dates back 80 odd years, and we didn't have a customs union with Ireland for much of that time.
    Does the Republic's membership of the EU preclude the CTA being restarted ?
    The CTA hasn't been stopped - it's still in place.
    In theory yes. In practice passports are checked at the main Irish airports and equally I've had my passport checked flying into the UK.
    At Gatwick Irish & Channel Islands passengers bypass passport control and just have their boarding cards checked......
    It would be fairly easy (although a bit more expensive) to do customs checks between the island of Ireland and the UK mainland: you just have the usual customs channels for passengers, scan the luggage, and do scanning/ spot checks on vehicles, lorries and cargo.

    There are fairly thorough checks on baggage anyway due to security concerns. The interesting thing is the EIRE/UK border on the island of Ireland. I'm sure some arrangement could be reached there, or spot check customs posts for lorries/HGVS on a few key roads - i.e. regular movement and the CTA would be unaffected - with the PSNI doing intelligence led customs busts inside Ulster.

    Yes, some contraband will get through, in the same way some people in lorries get through the UK border, even though we're outside Schengen, but it should work well enough.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    Magnificent
  • Roger
    Roger Posts: 20,744
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    @edmundintokyo @TOPPING

    People such as yourselves are supply and demand deniers, so I doubt anything can change your minds, but what is the point of cheap Labour if it doesn't bring down the cost of Labour?

    Sam read the research. We can have a good discussion about it afterwards. It might not make you feel as good as some cartoon men but it is interesting nevertheless.
    The saddest thing about your posts is that you must believe your patronising tone is effective.
    Don't be sad. You linked to a 15-second cartoon that said something about part-time working. I linked to a paper by the NIESR (which in turn referenced other papers) about the effect of immigration on wages.

    You presumably linked to your cartoon to support your point; I linked to the research to support mine.

    What's patronising about that?
    Your whole tone is always vey patronising. I put it down to losing the ref and needing to feel superior.

    A good thing in debate, Topping, is to use sources that don't always agree with you.
    LOL!!!! How does that work?
  • Stark_Dawning
    Stark_Dawning Posts: 10,202
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    I remember being really excited by this ad:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz2seWWrXxQ

    Who would have thought that the party of Maggie and buccaneering capitalism would eventually slink away from it in a huff.
  • ReggieCide
    ReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    Times change - reality no longer matches the dream given the baggage that goes with it. Remind me, how many countries in the internal market then?
  • welshowl
    welshowl Posts: 4,464
    CarlottaVance said:

    matt said:




    CarlottaVance said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    So now that it is confirmed that we are leaving the customs union, that means a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic?

    I'm in favour of a hard border, given people from that island have caused more terrorism on the mainland than anyone else.

    Gawd, I'm becoming more pro Brexit by the minute.

    The Common Travel Area dates back 80 odd years, and we didn't have a customs union with Ireland for much of that time.
    Does the Republic's membership of the EU preclude the CTA being restarted ?
    The CTA hasn't been stopped - it's still in place.
    In theory yes. In practice passports are checked at the main Irish airports and equally I've had my passport checked flying into the UK.
    At Gatwick Irish & Channel Islands passengers bypass passport control and just have their boarding cards checked......
    In the past certainly (not been for a couple of years) there were nice men in suits just looking at you as you walked to the plane to go to Ireland. I wonder if they were just possibly some sort of police just "informally" checking the comings and goings? Heaven forfend they were de factor controlling a border.
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    edited January 2017
    Roger said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    @edmundintokyo @TOPPING

    People such as yourselves are supply and demand deniers, so I doubt anything can change your minds, but what is the point of cheap Labour if it doesn't bring down the cost of Labour?

    Sam read the research. We can have a good discussion about it afterwards. It might not make you feel as good as some cartoon men but it is interesting nevertheless.
    The saddest thing about your posts is that you must believe your patronising tone is effective.
    Don't be sad. You linked to a 15-second cartoon that said something about part-time working. I linked to a paper by the NIESR (which in turn referenced other papers) about the effect of immigration on wages.

    You presumably linked to your cartoon to support your point; I linked to the research to support mine.

    What's patronising about that?
    Your whole tone is always vey patronising. I put it down to losing the ref and needing to feel superior.

    A good thing in debate, Topping, is to use sources that don't always agree with you.
    LOL!!!! How does that work?
    What do you mean?
  • FrancisUrquhart
    FrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,722
    edited January 2017
    Casino_Royale said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Essexit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Essexit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Essexit said:

    HYUFD said:

    williamglenn said:

    http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/the_problem_with_the_english_england_doesn_t_want_to_be_just_another_member_of_a_team_1_4851882

    Europhobia was shown by the referendum to be a specifically English psychosis, the narcissistic outcome of a specifically English crisis of identity.

    Wales also voted Leave
    "The pattern of voting showed up a colossal divergence between England, with its Welsh appendage, on the one hand, and Scotland and Northern Ireland on the other."

    The author sounds a nice chap.
    I can't say I find his amateur psychoanalysis very persuasive.
    Unsurprising, he works in the MML faculty: http://www.mml.cam.ac.uk/professor-nicholas-boyle

    But he has 'a degree', which qualifies him to pontificate on the mental state of Europe's lager louts, the English. In fact it has just granted him the ability to talk out of his arse with zero self-awareness.
    Fen-Poly - what do you expect?
    Oi! I went to that Fen-Poly! And you'll incur TSE's wrath now.
    You are forgiven, but TSE labours under the delusion that its the best university in the world while any fule no that its Cowley Tec - just ask the Prime Minister, or her predecessor, or the one before the one before that.....
    The Complete University Guide 2017’s rankings have been topped by Cambridge and the Other Place.

    https://www.thetab.com/uk/cambridge/2016/04/25/cambridge-university-rankings-74558/amp
    Ack my uni has slipped to 12th :(
    Woah. What happened to Bristol?
    Bristol is still highly ranked* on the world stage, due some fantastic research. But these rankings place a lot of emphasis on undergraduate "service", and there are a number of traditional unis that have been overtaken by the likes of Warwick for the "service" they deliver.

    * I can't remember the exact ranking in these world rankings, Top 100, and in the top 10 of UK unis under these metrics.
  • David_Evershed
    David_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Pong said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    I'll vote for that.

    Who wouldn't?
    Vote Lib Dem - but accept high immigration and European Court rule.
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    Pong said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    I'll vote for that.

    Who wouldn't?
    52% just didnt
  • Slackbladder
    Slackbladder Posts: 9,800
    Pong said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    I'll vote for that.

    Who wouldn't?
    Unfortunately with the rise in the political aspect of the EU that dream turned sour.
  • AlastairMeeks
    AlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Scott_P said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    (Incidentally, I expect it to pass anyway because 300 Tories will vote for it)

    The ones who stood on this manifesto?

    https://twitter.com/pickardje/status/821305607370276866
    Where that is potentially relevant is the House of Lords. Their lordships might very well feel that Brexit might mean Brexit but that manifesto commitments also mean manifesto commitments, and that the government is going to have to make more of an effort to square the circle.

    I don't think that they should take this line, but they might.
    I feel the need to do a thread on the Salisbury-Addison convention.
    Which the Lib Dems have for some time disavowed. If Jeremy Corbyn was smart, now might be a good moment for Labour to do the same thing. It would help to ensure that his commitment to making it elected was honoured should Labour win power again in future.
  • David_Evershed
    David_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    CarlottaVance said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    What has the Single Market become?

    It isn't a single market in services but it is a single market in workers.
  • Sandpit
    Sandpit Posts: 56,045
    rcs1000 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    @bbclaurak: David Davis will make a statement to Commons but some MPs trying to force PM to go instead -anger simmering that parliament being 'excluded'

    *cough*Sovereignty*cough*

    To be perfectly fair, I don't understand why the PM is not making her speech in Parliament. That is surely the appropriate place for a major policy announcement from the government?
    It is indeed. It should have been given in Parliament.
    I'm definitely not a fan of Speaker Bercow, but I think he would have a point if he formally pulls up the PM on this one. It's the biggest policy statement in years, really should be made from the House.
  • williamglenn
    williamglenn Posts: 56,289
    Slackbladder said:

    Pong said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    I'll vote for that.

    Who wouldn't?
    Unfortunately with the rise in the political aspect of the EU that dream turned sour.
    A single market is inherently political. It was always a delusion to think that it wasn't.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    Does anyone want to tell him that those in work voted Remain whilst those not in work voted for Leave?

    https://twitter.com/portraitinflesh/status/821307361281314816
  • David_Evershed
    David_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Alanbrooke said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    it's bookending

    MT brought us in and TM takes us out

    Ted Heath took us into the Common Market.

    Bring back the Common Market.
  • isam
    isam Posts: 42,205
    edited January 2017
    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    "...and something for the less well off.. millions of people from countries not currently part of the EU will do your job on the cheap, leaving you lots of time to sit at home on your own, watching tv and getting state benefits to top up your hours. I will destroy the trade unions and the Labour party will turn it's back on you"
  • rural_voter
    rural_voter Posts: 2,038
    David_Evershed said:

    Pong said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    I'll vote for that.

    Who wouldn't?
    Vote Lib Dem - but accept high immigration and European Court rule.
    Isn't it possible to square the circle via the distinction between

    1 Free movement of Labour
    and
    2 Free movement of People?

    1 applies to Single Market
    2 applies to Full EU membership.

    The distinction between labour - i.e., employees - and people may have escaped non-native English speakers in the EU. That's our only hope ...
  • Essexit
    Essexit Posts: 1,966
    williamglenn said:

    Slackbladder said:

    Pong said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    I'll vote for that.

    Who wouldn't?
    Unfortunately with the rise in the political aspect of the EU that dream turned sour.
    A single market is inherently political. It was always a delusion to think that it wasn't.
    For once, we agree.
  • TheScreamingEagles
    TheScreamingEagles Posts: 122,805
    Interesting

    A former Scotland international footballer and his ex-teammate were ruled to be rapists and ordered to pay £100,000 in damages.

    A mother-of-one, who was left "devastated" by a Crown decision not to prosecute, sued striker David Goodwillie and his then Dundee United colleague David Robertson claiming that they raped her at a flat in Armadale, in West Lothian, after a night out in nearby Bathgate.

    The woman said she could not remember what had happened since she was in a Bathgate bar until she woke up in the strange flat the following morning.

    https://stv.tv/news/east-central/1378283-footballer-david-goodwillie-raped-woman-at-flat-judge-rules/?utm_content=buffer9c11b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
  • Mortimer
    Mortimer Posts: 14,229
    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    Didn't tell us about:

    - Interfering EU judges coming at laws from a different philosophical and historical basis
    - EU enlargement
    - Political apparatus of a superstate without democratic basis

    So basically, with the single market we were sold a pup.
  • David_Evershed
    David_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Interesting

    A former Scotland international footballer and his ex-teammate were ruled to be rapists and ordered to pay £100,000 in damages.

    A mother-of-one, who was left "devastated" by a Crown decision not to prosecute, sued striker David Goodwillie and his then Dundee United colleague David Robertson claiming that they raped her at a flat in Armadale, in West Lothian, after a night out in nearby Bathgate.

    The woman said she could not remember what had happened since she was in a Bathgate bar until she woke up in the strange flat the following morning.

    https://stv.tv/news/east-central/1378283-footballer-david-goodwillie-raped-woman-at-flat-judge-rules/?utm_content=buffer9c11b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    A different standard of proof is required in a criminal court compared with a civil court.
  • John_M
    John_M Posts: 7,503
    Mortimer said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    Didn't tell us about:

    - Interfering EU judges coming at laws from a different philosophical and historical basis
    - EU enlargement
    - Political apparatus of a superstate without democratic basis

    So basically, with the single market we were sold a pup.
    In fairness, I think people can be forgiven for not forseeing the future development of the EU. The SEA was a boon for the UK. Successive treaties in the 90s and 00s tipped the balance the other way.
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    @EdConwaySky: What a time we live in: today at Davos China’s president Xi established himself as the world’s new champion of openness & globalisation
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    Scott_P said:

    @EdConwaySky: What a time we live in: today at Davos China’s president Xi established himself as the world’s new champion of openness & globalisation

    Scott don't forget to post a tweet when he becomes the world's new champion of liberty and democracy.
  • FrancisUrquhart
    FrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,722
    Scott_P said:

    @EdConwaySky: What a time we live in: today at Davos China’s president Xi established himself as the world’s new champion of openness & globalisation

    I know Ed makes a pillock of himself on a regular basis, but that is just nonsense.
  • Essexit
    Essexit Posts: 1,966
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Interesting

    A former Scotland international footballer and his ex-teammate were ruled to be rapists and ordered to pay £100,000 in damages.

    A mother-of-one, who was left "devastated" by a Crown decision not to prosecute, sued striker David Goodwillie and his then Dundee United colleague David Robertson claiming that they raped her at a flat in Armadale, in West Lothian, after a night out in nearby Bathgate.

    The woman said she could not remember what had happened since she was in a Bathgate bar until she woke up in the strange flat the following morning.

    https://stv.tv/news/east-central/1378283-footballer-david-goodwillie-raped-woman-at-flat-judge-rules/?utm_content=buffer9c11b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    Sounds like he had a Badwillie.
  • Slackbladder
    Slackbladder Posts: 9,800
    You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.

    If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.
  • TGOHF
    TGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    @EdConwaySky: What a time we live in: today at Davos China’s president Xi established himself as the world’s new champion of openness & globalisation

    Wonder if Ed will ask the Chinese President whether he travels first or second class on the train ?

  • Mortimer
    Mortimer Posts: 14,229
    edited January 2017
    John_M said:

    Mortimer said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    Didn't tell us about:

    - Interfering EU judges coming at laws from a different philosophical and historical basis
    - EU enlargement
    - Political apparatus of a superstate without democratic basis

    So basically, with the single market we were sold a pup.
    In fairness, I think people can be forgiven for not forseeing the future development of the EU. The SEA was a boon for the UK. Successive treaties in the 90s and 00s tipped the balance the other way.
    True.

    I'd have voted Remain in '90, but against after Maastricht. Was hopeful DC would get some real reform so that I could have voted Remain in '16, but it wasn't to be.
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    David_Evershed said:

    Ted Heath took us into the Common Market.

    Bring back the Common Market.

    I don't know why Remainers struggle to grasp that the Single Market isn't the problem, it's all the other baggage that came with it and the crap that has accumulated over the decades that is the problem.

    Most Leavers would be quite happy with an EU where we got to pick the bits we like but refuse the bits we don't.
  • FrancisUrquhart
    FrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,722
    edited January 2017
    Mortimer said:

    John_M said:

    Mortimer said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    Didn't tell us about:

    - Interfering EU judges coming at laws from a different philosophical and historical basis
    - EU enlargement
    - Political apparatus of a superstate without democratic basis

    So basically, with the single market we were sold a pup.
    In fairness, I think people can be forgiven for not forseeing the future development of the EU. The SEA was a boon for the UK. Successive treaties in the 90s and 00s tipped the balance the other way.
    True.

    I'd have voted Remain in '90, but against after Maastricht. Was hopeful DC would get some real reform so that I could have voted Remain in '16, but it wasn't to be.
    Not only did Cameron basically just bend over and assume the position, but the EU shows no sign of any reform, not then, not now.
  • rkrkrk
    rkrkrk Posts: 8,746
    Mortimer said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    ‪Oh what has my party become

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/821291558624436224

    'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.
    Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
    It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'

    Didn't tell us about:

    - Interfering EU judges coming at laws from a different philosophical and historical basis
    - EU enlargement
    - Political apparatus of a superstate without democratic basis

    So basically, with the single market we were sold a pup.
    To be fair... the UK was probably the most forceful proponent of EU enlargement.
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    Slackbladder said:

    You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.

    If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.

    Exactly.

    If you have a favourite old pub that is taken over by a brewer and modernised (crap food and Sky blaring out round the clock) then you stop going. Only a bloody fool doesn't change their mind when circumstances change.
  • rkrkrk
    rkrkrk Posts: 8,746
    glw said:

    David_Evershed said:

    Ted Heath took us into the Common Market.

    Bring back the Common Market.

    I don't know why Remainers struggle to grasp that the Single Market isn't the problem, it's all the other baggage that came with it and the crap that has accumulated over the decades that is the problem.

    Most Leavers would be quite happy with an EU where we got to pick the bits we like but refuse the bits we don't.
    I think a lot of that baggage is actually part and parcel of the single market. Not all - but definitely a lot of it. Obviously anyone would be happy if we could pick the bits we like and not the bits we didn't.... but if every country did that then there would be no EU.
  • JonathanD
    JonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Nick Boles has an article up at Con Home about the Single Market and Tory MPs.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/01/nick-boles-liberal-conservatives-must-abandon-fantasies-about-staying-in-the-single-market.html

    "We need to be utterly unsentimental in our assessment of our political strengths and weaknesses when set against the strengths and weaknesses of those who would like to see a new relationship with our European partners that is less liberal, less open and less engaged. We need to choose political ground that we can easily defend and from which we can credibly and persuasively attack the more extreme positions of the small but noisy Little Englander element in our party, and beyond."
  • FrancisUrquhart
    FrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,722
    glw said:

    Slackbladder said:

    You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.

    If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.

    Exactly.

    If you have a favourite old pub that is taken over by a brewer and modernised (crap food and Sky blaring out round the clock) then you stop going. Only a bloody fool doesn't change their mind when circumstances change.
    What about if it had been turned into a hipster microbrewery? ;-)
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,686
    Slackbladder said:

    You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.

    If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.

    Also many of its rules were made by unanimity and freedom of workers (not people) was a practical tool to support doing business in Europe, amongst a group of broadly income equivalent prosperous countries, saving places like southern Italy, Spain and Portugal but movements were small enough not to be an issue.
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    glw said:

    Slackbladder said:

    You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.

    If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.

    Exactly.

    If you have a favourite old pub that is taken over by a brewer and modernised (crap food and Sky blaring out round the clock) then you stop going. Only a bloody fool doesn't change their mind when circumstances change.
    What about if it had been turned into a hipster microbrewery? ;-)
    Even worse!
  • JonathanD
    JonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited January 2017
    rkrkrk said:

    glw said:

    David_Evershed said:

    Ted Heath took us into the Common Market.

    Bring back the Common Market.

    I don't know why Remainers struggle to grasp that the Single Market isn't the problem, it's all the other baggage that came with it and the crap that has accumulated over the decades that is the problem.

    Most Leavers would be quite happy with an EU where we got to pick the bits we like but refuse the bits we don't.
    Obviously anyone would be happy if we could pick the bits we like and not the bits we didn't.... but if every country did that then there would be no EU.
    I think the problem was the EU moving to Qualified Majority Voting and the loss of national vetoes. The EU tried to move too fast when they should have been content with building a system with more need for compromise, or a recognition that not everything needs to be standardised in one go and that sometimes its OK to disagree.
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    rkrkrk said:

    I think a lot of that baggage is actually part and parcel of the single market. Not all - but definitely a lot of it. Obviously anyone would be happy if we could pick the bits we like and not the bits we didn't.... but if every country did that then there would be no EU.

    I agree, we certainly didn't realise the long term implications of some of the things we signed up for. So it is as much our fault as the EU's, but even saying that the EU has developed in ways that have very little support in the UK, and our influence has had little effect.
  • John_M
    John_M Posts: 7,503
    Casino_Royale said:

    Slackbladder said:

    You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.

    If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.

    Also many of its rules were made by unanimity and freedom of workers (not people) was a practical tool to support doing business in Europe, amongst a group of broadly income equivalent prosperous countries, saving places like southern Italy, Spain and Portugal but movements were small enough not to be an issue.
    The main argument seems to be that if you like something once, you have to like it forever, no backsies. Anyway, out with the dogs, play nicely ladies ;).
  • rkrkrk
    rkrkrk Posts: 8,746
    JonathanD said:

    Nick Boles has an article up at Con Home about the Single Market and Tory MPs.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/01/nick-boles-liberal-conservatives-must-abandon-fantasies-about-staying-in-the-single-market.html

    "We need to be utterly unsentimental in our assessment of our political strengths and weaknesses when set against the strengths and weaknesses of those who would like to see a new relationship with our European partners that is less liberal, less open and less engaged. We need to choose political ground that we can easily defend and from which we can credibly and persuasively attack the more extreme positions of the small but noisy Little Englander element in our party, and beyond."

    It's a really good article I think.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,686
    glw said:

    David_Evershed said:

    Ted Heath took us into the Common Market.

    Bring back the Common Market.

    I don't know why Remainers struggle to grasp that the Single Market isn't the problem, it's all the other baggage that came with it and the crap that has accumulated over the decades that is the problem.

    Most Leavers would be quite happy with an EU where we got to pick the bits we like but refuse the bits we don't.
    And what's wrong with that?

    At French restaurants you can opt for the all-inclusive prix-fix, at a decent discount, but you can also pay more and go a-la-carte.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,686
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Pulpstar said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Essexit said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Essexit said:

    Sean_F said:

    Essexit said:

    HYUFD said:

    williamglenn said:

    http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/the_problem_with_the_english_england_doesn_t_want_to_be_just_another_member_of_a_team_1_4851882

    Europhobia was shown by the referendum to be a specifically English psychosis, the narcissistic outcome of a specifically English crisis of identity.

    Wales also voted Leave
    "The pattern of voting showed up a colossal divergence between England, with its Welsh appendage, on the one hand, and Scotland and Northern Ireland on the other."

    The author sounds a nice chap.
    I can't say I find his amateur psychoanalysis very persuasive.
    Unsurprising, he works in the MML faculty: http://www.mml.cam.ac.uk/professor-nicholas-boyle

    But he has 'a degree', which qualifies him to pontificate on the mental state of Europe's lager louts, the English. In fact it has just granted him the ability to talk out of his arse with zero self-awareness.
    Fen-Poly - what do you expect?
    Oi! I went to that Fen-Poly! And you'll incur TSE's wrath now.
    You


    The Complete University Guide 2017’s rankings have been topped by Cambridge and the Other Place.

    https://www.thetab.com/uk/cambridge/2016/04/25/cambridge-university-rankings-74558/amp
    Ack my uni has slipped to 12th :(
    Woah. What happened to Bristol?
    Bristol is still highly ranked* on the world stage, due some fantastic research. But these rankings place a lot of emphasis on undergraduate "service", and there are a number of traditional unis that have been overtaken by the likes of Warwick for the "service" they deliver.

    * I can't remember the exact ranking in these world rankings, Top 100, and in the top 10 of UK unis under these metrics.
    Thanks.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,686
    John_M said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Slackbladder said:

    You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.

    If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.

    Also many of its rules were made by unanimity and freedom of workers (not people) was a practical tool to support doing business in Europe, amongst a group of broadly income equivalent prosperous countries, saving places like southern Italy, Spain and Portugal but movements were small enough not to be an issue.
    The main argument seems to be that if you like something once, you have to like it forever, no backsies. Anyway, out with the dogs, play nicely ladies ;).
    It's a mixture of selective fact-picking, sock-puppeting and confirmation bias to try and wrongfoot ones opponents in the debate.

    And it's downright silly. We know (on both sides) how the EU has changed and evolved. And so did the British people, which is why we voted to Leave.
  • FrancisUrquhart
    FrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,722
    glw said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    glw said:

    Slackbladder said:

    You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.

    If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.

    Exactly.

    If you have a favourite old pub that is taken over by a brewer and modernised (crap food and Sky blaring out round the clock) then you stop going. Only a bloody fool doesn't change their mind when circumstances change.
    What about if it had been turned into a hipster microbrewery? ;-)
    Even worse!
    I made that mistake the other week. In a town I was unfamiliar with, walked into what looked like a nice old boozer, served by a bearded tattooed younger gentleman looking rather rock-a-billy...still not twigged...ordered a pint, asked if they did food, said yes, ordered some standard bar food meal without really looking at price...that will be £25...
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    Casino_Royale said:

    And what's wrong with that?

    At French restaurants you can opt for the all-inclusive prix-fix, at a decent discount, but you can also pay more and go a-la-carte.

    In principle that's what I'd like the EU to be like, lots and lots of national variations, not just an inner core and a couple of reluctant members dragged along. It wouldn't be as efficient, but I believe it would be a hell of a lot more popular, and not just in the UK.
  • PlatoSaid
    PlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    glw said:

    Slackbladder said:

    You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.

    If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.

    Exactly.

    If you have a favourite old pub that is taken over by a brewer and modernised (crap food and Sky blaring out round the clock) then you stop going. Only a bloody fool doesn't change their mind when circumstances change.
    What about if it had been turned into a hipster microbrewery? ;-)
    :astonished:
  • Morris_Dancer
    Morris_Dancer Posts: 62,742
    Mr. Flashman (deceased), also worth noting Xi's increasing China's military capabilities and has conducted a massive land grab in the South China Sea.
  • Mortimer
    Mortimer Posts: 14,229
    Anyone know where we can watch Mrs May's speech online? Skynews?
  • FrancisUrquhart
    FrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,722
    Mortimer said:

    Anyone know where we can watch Mrs May's speech online? Skynews?

    I would guess Sky and BBC news will run it.
  • rkrkrk
    rkrkrk Posts: 8,746
    JonathanD said:

    rkrkrk said:

    glw said:

    David_Evershed said:

    Ted Heath took us into the Common Market.

    Bring back the Common Market.

    I don't know why Remainers struggle to grasp that the Single Market isn't the problem, it's all the other baggage that came with it and the crap that has accumulated over the decades that is the problem.

    Most Leavers would be quite happy with an EU where we got to pick the bits we like but refuse the bits we don't.
    Obviously anyone would be happy if we could pick the bits we like and not the bits we didn't.... but if every country did that then there would be no EU.
    I think the problem was the EU moving to Qualified Majority Voting and the loss of national vetoes. The EU tried to move too fast when they should have been content with building a system with more need for compromise, or a recognition that not everything needs to be standardised in one go and that sometimes its OK to disagree.
    Hmm... I think there's definitely some truth in what you say. I think some of that faster movement though was because of the UK's influence.

    I personally feel the UK has a share of the blame in this in that our elected representatives at the time either a) did not prioritise/understand Europe or b) actively pushed for things which subsequently we decided we didn't like.

    The total nonsense of the UK pushing for Turkey to join for years and then completely reversing course is perhaps a good example.

  • PlatoSaid
    PlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anyone know where we can watch Mrs May's speech online? Skynews?

    I would guess Sky and BBC news will run it.
    I think its on in about ten mins 1145...
  • Mortimer
    Mortimer Posts: 14,229
    PlatoSaid said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anyone know where we can watch Mrs May's speech online? Skynews?

    I would guess Sky and BBC news will run it.
    I think its on in about ten mins 1145...
    Thanks @PlatoSaid and @FrancisUrquhart !
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    I made that mistake the other week. In a town I was unfamiliar with, walked into what looked like a nice old boozer, served by a bearded tattooed younger gentleman looking rather rock-a-billy...still not twigged...ordered a pint, asked if they did food, said yes, ordered some standard bar food meal without really looking at price...that will be £25...

    I don't have anything against microbreweries in principle, but it does seem to go in hand with high prices.
  • SandyRentool
    SandyRentool Posts: 23,156
    Leaked transcript of May's speech:

    "Brexit means brexit."

    And that's it.


    Hopefully she will hide a few song titles in he speech, just to make it fun.

    "In terms of the single market, I can confirm that we're never gonna give you up." That sort of thing.
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/guardianheather/status/821322560595984384
  • tlg86
    tlg86 Posts: 26,950
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/guardianheather/status/821322560595984384

    Someone's in the wrong place....

    https://twitter.com/isaby/status/821322107732819968/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
  • FrancisUrquhart
    FrancisUrquhart Posts: 85,722
    edited January 2017
    tlg86 said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/guardianheather/status/821322560595984384

    Someone's in the wrong place....

    twitter.com/isaby/status/821322107732819968/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
    Perhaps they have given the Guardian journos their own special room...a safe space to watch it :-)
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Perhaps they have given the Guardian journos their own special room...a safe space to watch it :-)

    Perhaps the screen will start flashing images of Trump and Farage to brainwash them.
  • OldKingCole
    OldKingCole Posts: 35,270
    glw said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    I made that mistake the other week. In a town I was unfamiliar with, walked into what looked like a nice old boozer, served by a bearded tattooed younger gentleman looking rather rock-a-billy...still not twigged...ordered a pint, asked if they did food, said yes, ordered some standard bar food meal without really looking at price...that will be £25...

    I don't have anything against microbreweries in principle, but it does seem to go in hand with high prices.
    Talking to the landlord of the pub I use regularly and he said that he ran a pub; a place for people to get together, have a drink and a chat. He, or at leqast his wife, does meals, but a very limited range..... roast on Sunday, lamb shank, etc. Game pie after there’s been a shoot locally.

    It’s popular.and the Sunday roast normally sells out.
  • SandyRentool
    SandyRentool Posts: 23,156
    A parliamentary vote on the deal. Interesting.
  • rkrkrk
    rkrkrk Posts: 8,746
    Sterling apparently rising... bad news for those who bet on it to fall if that continues!
  • ReggieCide
    ReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    glw said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Perhaps they have given the Guardian journos their own special room...a safe space to watch it :-)

    Perhaps the screen will start flashing images of Trump and Farage to brainwash them.
    already washed!
  • JosiasJessop
    JosiasJessop Posts: 46,250
    isam said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    isam said:

    edmundintokyo said:

    isam said:

    @edmundintokyo @TOPPING

    People such as yourselves are supply and demand deniers, so I doubt anything can change your minds, but what is the point of cheap Labour if it doesn't bring down the cost of Labour?

    We've done this before. It brings down the cost of labour for that particular task. What it does to the job prospects of a human being, who is capable of more than one task, is a more complicated question that can't be answered with "Doh, supply and demand".

    But since you didn't answer my original question, can I take that to mean that you have no new information on whether the rise in part-time work is related to immigration, and that's just a conclusion you jumped to?
    I have been saying for years on here that the mass import of cheap Labour leads to lower wages and less job security. People try to deny it by pointing out the number of people "Employed", this latest data show the lowest paid are now 4 times more likely to be in part time work than 20 years ago. The leader of the Remain campaign warned big business that leaving the EU would push up wages.

    I really doubt that the lowest paid men in society are giving up hours to look after the baby either.

    Maybe you are right and its all just coincidence
    "I really doubt that the lowest paid men in society are giving up hours to look after the baby either."

    I know several working-class men (in ex-mining areas as well, for extra points) who have done exactly that.

    Childcare is expensive. The person who earns more continues to work, and the one who doesn't looks after the child. Or they both work part-time and split shifts.

    I'm all for it. Looking after a kid is fun, and why should women get all the fun. :)
    I know loads of people who have lost hours/wages because of EU immigration but didnt want to have to resort to anecdote
    Late to the debate, but how do you know it was because of 'EU immigration' ?
  • AlsoIndigo
    AlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    MaxPB said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Pong said:

    MTimT said:

    No wonder politicians are so despised and disbelieved:

    "Chlorine-soaked chickens will be on sale in British supermarkets if the US gets its way in a post-Brexit trade deal, Nick Clegg has warned."

    Each time I go to the supermarket here in the US, I just love picking up my chlorine-soaked chickens.

    It's even better than that;

    "You tell me, but I suspect the good shoppers of Waitrose and Sainsbury’s and others might be a little bit shocked if, suddenly, they are having to eat this slightly white, chlorine-washed American chicken flesh"

    lol

    SLIGHTLY WHITE, CHLORINE-WASHED AMERICAN CHICKEN FLESH

    Nick Clegg's having fun.

    I'm starting to like him again.
    Sainsbury's and Waitrose shoppers voted Remain and so their interests are going to be ignored by this government.
    I shop at both and voted Leave. Stop posting twaddle
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/10/20/iceland-britains-brexit-iest-supermarket/
    and as your charts show the supermarket is as spilt as the rest of the country

    That's exactly what the charts don't show. Both Sainsbury's and Waitrose are skewed to Remain.

    I appreciate that you wanted to huff and puff and I'm sorry to have to bring you up short with data. I do try to take care when trolling to make sure that I am on a secure footing before doing so.
    I only shop at Sainsbury's and Waitrose.

    And M&S.
    Indeed. I even found Waitrose products in sale in Zurich at Manor Food!

    Meeks is projecting, as usual.
    I can buy a fair range of Waitrose products in Cebu City here in the Philippines, they have partnered with the local upscale supermarket Rustans.
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