"It is also clear from the figure that it was not simply an effect of the recession: it has been a consistent trend over the past 20 years."
"However, inequality in their net income – that is, after direct taxes have been paid and state benefits received – did not rise. This was partly the result of deliberate policy decisions, and in particular the large expansion of tax credits in the late 1990s and 2000s, which boosted the income of low-income working households. "
"This is largely because weekly earnings inequality among men rose: partly because hourly wages grew faster towards the top than at the middle and bottom of the distribution."
So a paper talking about household income inequality explains that the proportion of working men of the lowest income bracket who are doing part time work (and those without children, thus expelling the childcare issue) has increased.
But it says nowhere why. I control F-ed "immigration" and results came there none.
So it seems to be down to you to intuit that the trend (over the past 20 years) is because of immigration.
I say the mass importation of cheap unskilled labour on an unprecedented scale is not going to help when the lowest paid are losing wages and hours. It seems so obvious that it doesn't need saying, but we are allowed to disagree
@bbclaurak: David Davis will make a statement to Commons but some MPs trying to force PM to go instead -anger simmering that parliament being 'excluded'
*cough*Sovereignty*cough*
To be perfectly fair, I don't understand why the PM is not making her speech in Parliament. That is surely the appropriate place for a major policy announcement from the government?
People such as yourselves are supply and demand deniers, so I doubt anything can change your minds, but what is the point of cheap Labour if it doesn't bring down the cost of Labour?
Sam read the research. We can have a good discussion about it afterwards. It might not make you feel as good as some cartoon men but it is interesting nevertheless.
The saddest thing about your posts is that you must believe your patronising tone is effective.
Don't be sad. You linked to a 15-second cartoon that said something about part-time working. I linked to a paper by the NIESR (which in turn referenced other papers) about the effect of immigration on wages.
You presumably linked to your cartoon to support your point; I linked to the research to support mine.
What's patronising about that?
Your whole tone is always vey patronising. I put it down to losing the ref and needing to feel superior.
Calling it a cartoon to undermine the point is one example. The NIESR research is something I have linked to in the past to prove my point, and I used it because it is Jonathan Portes is a very pro EU person and I didn't want to seem as though I only used the views of people on my side.
A good thing in debate, Topping, is to use sources that don't always agree with you.
Can you link to the IFS research which underpins the cartoon (what else is it?). I will have a read.
I am sure you have the ability to do this yourself, but anyway
Do either of those links talk about immigration? If they did I must have missed it...?
I wish people would stop being disingenuous. iSam is making a fairly straightforward point. You can agree or disagree, or you can accept it up to a point.
I'm not being disingenuous... I thought he might have linked to the wrong study or I might have missed something in my skim read.
I was expecting to read something linking immigration to lower wages!
Remember that at the bottom end of the scale, wages are set by law rather than being decided by the free market.
@bbclaurak: Hearing a number of MPs tabling urgent questions on May's EU plan
Not that I want to encourage you, but this speech will set the cat amongst the pigeons.
The interesting question, now, is how will the Brexit bill pass through parliament, and with what amendments.
Lib Dems/SNP will all vote "no", a few others from NI parties, but the big question is how Labour splits: against, for, and abstentions.
(Incidentally, I expect it to pass anyway because 300 Tories, 10 Labour Leavers and DUP/Carswell will vote for it)
Not even all the LDs will vote against. I believe at least three of the nine have said they will not oppose it. (I don't know if that means abstention or support.)
It seems to me to be blindingly obvious that if you're losing against your opponent then replacing your fighter with someone more proficient improves your chances of winning. For Labour this seems to be a masterstroke too far.
@bbclaurak: David Davis will make a statement to Commons but some MPs trying to force PM to go instead -anger simmering that parliament being 'excluded'
*cough*Sovereignty*cough*
To be perfectly fair, I don't understand why the PM is not making her speech in Parliament. That is surely the appropriate place for a major policy announcement from the government?
It is indeed. It should have been given in Parliament.
Europhobia was shown by the referendum to be a specifically English psychosis, the narcissistic outcome of a specifically English crisis of identity.
Wales also voted Leave
"The pattern of voting showed up a colossal divergence between England, with its Welsh appendage, on the one hand, and Scotland and Northern Ireland on the other."
The author sounds a nice chap.
I can't say I find his amateur psychoanalysis very persuasive.
But he has 'a degree', which qualifies him to pontificate on the mental state of Europe's lager louts, the English. In fact it has just granted him the ability to talk out of his arse with zero self-awareness.
Fen-Poly - what do you expect?
Oi! I went to that Fen-Poly! And you'll incur TSE's wrath now.
You are forgiven, but TSE labours under the delusion that its the best university in the world while any fule no that its Cowley Tec - just ask the Prime Minister, or her predecessor, or the one before the one before that.....
The Complete University Guide 2017’s rankings have been topped by Cambridge and the Other Place.
I would be very surprised if there was a majority of less than 450 for the Brexit Bill.
It depends on whether Labour MPs actively vote *for* it, or abstain though.
Technically you're correct either way: if 300 Tories + 10 others + 140 Labour MPs vote for it, then its 450 votes to 200 (a mixture of probably 100 or so against and 100 abstentions)
But it could also be passed by only 350 to 300 (300 Tories + 10 others + 40 Labour MPs) with 100 votes against, but almost 200 abstentions - i.e. the vast bulk of Labour MPs abstaining.
In reality, I expect (Labour) to add a couple of amendments to it, particularly because Kier is competent, and the bill will pass. But, if these relate to the customs union and single market - supported by some Tories - May is in trouble.
@bbclaurak: David Davis will make a statement to Commons but some MPs trying to force PM to go instead -anger simmering that parliament being 'excluded'
*cough*Sovereignty*cough*
To be perfectly fair, I don't understand why the PM is not making her speech in Parliament. That is surely the appropriate place for a major policy announcement from the government?
@bbclaurak: Hearing a number of MPs tabling urgent questions on May's EU plan
Not that I want to encourage you, but this speech will set the cat amongst the pigeons.
The interesting question, now, is how will the Brexit bill pass through parliament, and with what amendments.
Lib Dems/SNP will all vote "no", a few others from NI parties, but the big question is how Labour splits: against, for, and abstentions.
(Incidentally, I expect it to pass anyway because 300 Tories, 10 Labour Leavers and DUP/Carswell will vote for it)
Not even all the LDs will vote against. I believe at least three of the nine have said they will not oppose it. (I don't know if that means abstention or support.)
Abstention is the obvious choice for any smart MP unbound by a whip here:
If Brexit goes right you can say "I did not oppose Brexit" If Brexit goes wrong you can say "I did not vote for Brexit"
Quite. While Leavers motives vary wildly, it's the political integration of the EU I object to, not the Single Market. I'm probably just a pound shop Hammond; other than my vote in EUref, I didn't disagree with anything he said in his Die Welt interview.
Where that is potentially relevant is the House of Lords. Their lordships might very well feel that Brexit might mean Brexit but that manifesto commitments also mean manifesto commitments, and that the government is going to have to make more of an effort to square the circle.
I don't think that they should take this line, but they might.
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
Where that is potentially relevant is the House of Lords. Their lordships might very well feel that Brexit might mean Brexit but that manifesto commitments also mean manifesto commitments, and that the government is going to have to make more of an effort to square the circle.
I don't think that they should take this line, but they might.
I feel the need to do a thread on the Salisbury-Addison convention.
So now that it is confirmed that we are leaving the customs union, that means a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic?
I'm in favour of a hard border, given people from that island have caused more terrorism on the mainland than anyone else.
Gawd, I'm becoming more pro Brexit by the minute.
The Common Travel Area dates back 80 odd years, and we didn't have a customs union with Ireland for much of that time.
Does the Republic's membership of the EU preclude the CTA being restarted ?
The CTA hasn't been stopped - it's still in place.
In theory yes. In practice passports are checked at the main Irish airports and equally I've had my passport checked flying into the UK.
At Gatwick Irish & Channel Islands passengers bypass passport control and just have their boarding cards checked......
It would be fairly easy (although a bit more expensive) to do customs checks between the island of Ireland and the UK mainland: you just have the usual customs channels for passengers, scan the luggage, and do scanning/ spot checks on vehicles, lorries and cargo.
There are fairly thorough checks on baggage anyway due to security concerns. The interesting thing is the EIRE/UK border on the island of Ireland. I'm sure some arrangement could be reached there, or spot check customs posts for lorries/HGVS on a few key roads - i.e. regular movement and the CTA would be unaffected - with the PSNI doing intelligence led customs busts inside Ulster.
Yes, some contraband will get through, in the same way some people in lorries get through the UK border, even though we're outside Schengen, but it should work well enough.
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
People such as yourselves are supply and demand deniers, so I doubt anything can change your minds, but what is the point of cheap Labour if it doesn't bring down the cost of Labour?
Sam read the research. We can have a good discussion about it afterwards. It might not make you feel as good as some cartoon men but it is interesting nevertheless.
The saddest thing about your posts is that you must believe your patronising tone is effective.
Don't be sad. You linked to a 15-second cartoon that said something about part-time working. I linked to a paper by the NIESR (which in turn referenced other papers) about the effect of immigration on wages.
You presumably linked to your cartoon to support your point; I linked to the research to support mine.
What's patronising about that?
Your whole tone is always vey patronising. I put it down to losing the ref and needing to feel superior.
A good thing in debate, Topping, is to use sources that don't always agree with you.
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
Times change - reality no longer matches the dream given the baggage that goes with it. Remind me, how many countries in the internal market then?
So now that it is confirmed that we are leaving the customs union, that means a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic?
I'm in favour of a hard border, given people from that island have caused more terrorism on the mainland than anyone else.
Gawd, I'm becoming more pro Brexit by the minute.
The Common Travel Area dates back 80 odd years, and we didn't have a customs union with Ireland for much of that time.
Does the Republic's membership of the EU preclude the CTA being restarted ?
The CTA hasn't been stopped - it's still in place.
In theory yes. In practice passports are checked at the main Irish airports and equally I've had my passport checked flying into the UK.
At Gatwick Irish & Channel Islands passengers bypass passport control and just have their boarding cards checked......
In the past certainly (not been for a couple of years) there were nice men in suits just looking at you as you walked to the plane to go to Ireland. I wonder if they were just possibly some sort of police just "informally" checking the comings and goings? Heaven forfend they were de factor controlling a border.
People such as yourselves are supply and demand deniers, so I doubt anything can change your minds, but what is the point of cheap Labour if it doesn't bring down the cost of Labour?
Sam read the research. We can have a good discussion about it afterwards. It might not make you feel as good as some cartoon men but it is interesting nevertheless.
The saddest thing about your posts is that you must believe your patronising tone is effective.
Don't be sad. You linked to a 15-second cartoon that said something about part-time working. I linked to a paper by the NIESR (which in turn referenced other papers) about the effect of immigration on wages.
You presumably linked to your cartoon to support your point; I linked to the research to support mine.
What's patronising about that?
Your whole tone is always vey patronising. I put it down to losing the ref and needing to feel superior.
A good thing in debate, Topping, is to use sources that don't always agree with you.
Europhobia was shown by the referendum to be a specifically English psychosis, the narcissistic outcome of a specifically English crisis of identity.
Wales also voted Leave
"The pattern of voting showed up a colossal divergence between England, with its Welsh appendage, on the one hand, and Scotland and Northern Ireland on the other."
The author sounds a nice chap.
I can't say I find his amateur psychoanalysis very persuasive.
But he has 'a degree', which qualifies him to pontificate on the mental state of Europe's lager louts, the English. In fact it has just granted him the ability to talk out of his arse with zero self-awareness.
Fen-Poly - what do you expect?
Oi! I went to that Fen-Poly! And you'll incur TSE's wrath now.
You are forgiven, but TSE labours under the delusion that its the best university in the world while any fule no that its Cowley Tec - just ask the Prime Minister, or her predecessor, or the one before the one before that.....
The Complete University Guide 2017’s rankings have been topped by Cambridge and the Other Place.
Bristol is still highly ranked* on the world stage, due some fantastic research. But these rankings place a lot of emphasis on undergraduate "service", and there are a number of traditional unis that have been overtaken by the likes of Warwick for the "service" they deliver.
* I can't remember the exact ranking in these world rankings, Top 100, and in the top 10 of UK unis under these metrics.
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
I'll vote for that.
Who wouldn't?
Vote Lib Dem - but accept high immigration and European Court rule.
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
I'll vote for that.
Who wouldn't?
Unfortunately with the rise in the political aspect of the EU that dream turned sour.
Where that is potentially relevant is the House of Lords. Their lordships might very well feel that Brexit might mean Brexit but that manifesto commitments also mean manifesto commitments, and that the government is going to have to make more of an effort to square the circle.
I don't think that they should take this line, but they might.
I feel the need to do a thread on the Salisbury-Addison convention.
Which the Lib Dems have for some time disavowed. If Jeremy Corbyn was smart, now might be a good moment for Labour to do the same thing. It would help to ensure that his commitment to making it elected was honoured should Labour win power again in future.
@bbclaurak: David Davis will make a statement to Commons but some MPs trying to force PM to go instead -anger simmering that parliament being 'excluded'
*cough*Sovereignty*cough*
To be perfectly fair, I don't understand why the PM is not making her speech in Parliament. That is surely the appropriate place for a major policy announcement from the government?
It is indeed. It should have been given in Parliament.
I'm definitely not a fan of Speaker Bercow, but I think he would have a point if he formally pulls up the PM on this one. It's the biggest policy statement in years, really should be made from the House.
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
I'll vote for that.
Who wouldn't?
Unfortunately with the rise in the political aspect of the EU that dream turned sour.
A single market is inherently political. It was always a delusion to think that it wasn't.
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
"...and something for the less well off.. millions of people from countries not currently part of the EU will do your job on the cheap, leaving you lots of time to sit at home on your own, watching tv and getting state benefits to top up your hours. I will destroy the trade unions and the Labour party will turn it's back on you"
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
I'll vote for that.
Who wouldn't?
Vote Lib Dem - but accept high immigration and European Court rule.
Isn't it possible to square the circle via the distinction between
1 Free movement of Labour and 2 Free movement of People?
1 applies to Single Market 2 applies to Full EU membership.
The distinction between labour - i.e., employees - and people may have escaped non-native English speakers in the EU. That's our only hope ...
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
I'll vote for that.
Who wouldn't?
Unfortunately with the rise in the political aspect of the EU that dream turned sour.
A single market is inherently political. It was always a delusion to think that it wasn't.
A former Scotland international footballer and his ex-teammate were ruled to be rapists and ordered to pay £100,000 in damages.
A mother-of-one, who was left "devastated" by a Crown decision not to prosecute, sued striker David Goodwillie and his then Dundee United colleague David Robertson claiming that they raped her at a flat in Armadale, in West Lothian, after a night out in nearby Bathgate.
The woman said she could not remember what had happened since she was in a Bathgate bar until she woke up in the strange flat the following morning.
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
Didn't tell us about:
- Interfering EU judges coming at laws from a different philosophical and historical basis - EU enlargement - Political apparatus of a superstate without democratic basis
So basically, with the single market we were sold a pup.
A former Scotland international footballer and his ex-teammate were ruled to be rapists and ordered to pay £100,000 in damages.
A mother-of-one, who was left "devastated" by a Crown decision not to prosecute, sued striker David Goodwillie and his then Dundee United colleague David Robertson claiming that they raped her at a flat in Armadale, in West Lothian, after a night out in nearby Bathgate.
The woman said she could not remember what had happened since she was in a Bathgate bar until she woke up in the strange flat the following morning.
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
Didn't tell us about:
- Interfering EU judges coming at laws from a different philosophical and historical basis - EU enlargement - Political apparatus of a superstate without democratic basis
So basically, with the single market we were sold a pup.
In fairness, I think people can be forgiven for not forseeing the future development of the EU. The SEA was a boon for the UK. Successive treaties in the 90s and 00s tipped the balance the other way.
A former Scotland international footballer and his ex-teammate were ruled to be rapists and ordered to pay £100,000 in damages.
A mother-of-one, who was left "devastated" by a Crown decision not to prosecute, sued striker David Goodwillie and his then Dundee United colleague David Robertson claiming that they raped her at a flat in Armadale, in West Lothian, after a night out in nearby Bathgate.
The woman said she could not remember what had happened since she was in a Bathgate bar until she woke up in the strange flat the following morning.
You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.
If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
Didn't tell us about:
- Interfering EU judges coming at laws from a different philosophical and historical basis - EU enlargement - Political apparatus of a superstate without democratic basis
So basically, with the single market we were sold a pup.
In fairness, I think people can be forgiven for not forseeing the future development of the EU. The SEA was a boon for the UK. Successive treaties in the 90s and 00s tipped the balance the other way.
True.
I'd have voted Remain in '90, but against after Maastricht. Was hopeful DC would get some real reform so that I could have voted Remain in '16, but it wasn't to be.
I don't know why Remainers struggle to grasp that the Single Market isn't the problem, it's all the other baggage that came with it and the crap that has accumulated over the decades that is the problem.
Most Leavers would be quite happy with an EU where we got to pick the bits we like but refuse the bits we don't.
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
Didn't tell us about:
- Interfering EU judges coming at laws from a different philosophical and historical basis - EU enlargement - Political apparatus of a superstate without democratic basis
So basically, with the single market we were sold a pup.
In fairness, I think people can be forgiven for not forseeing the future development of the EU. The SEA was a boon for the UK. Successive treaties in the 90s and 00s tipped the balance the other way.
True.
I'd have voted Remain in '90, but against after Maastricht. Was hopeful DC would get some real reform so that I could have voted Remain in '16, but it wasn't to be.
Not only did Cameron basically just bend over and assume the position, but the EU shows no sign of any reform, not then, not now.
'Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it. It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
Didn't tell us about:
- Interfering EU judges coming at laws from a different philosophical and historical basis - EU enlargement - Political apparatus of a superstate without democratic basis
So basically, with the single market we were sold a pup.
To be fair... the UK was probably the most forceful proponent of EU enlargement.
You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.
If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.
Exactly.
If you have a favourite old pub that is taken over by a brewer and modernised (crap food and Sky blaring out round the clock) then you stop going. Only a bloody fool doesn't change their mind when circumstances change.
I don't know why Remainers struggle to grasp that the Single Market isn't the problem, it's all the other baggage that came with it and the crap that has accumulated over the decades that is the problem.
Most Leavers would be quite happy with an EU where we got to pick the bits we like but refuse the bits we don't.
I think a lot of that baggage is actually part and parcel of the single market. Not all - but definitely a lot of it. Obviously anyone would be happy if we could pick the bits we like and not the bits we didn't.... but if every country did that then there would be no EU.
"We need to be utterly unsentimental in our assessment of our political strengths and weaknesses when set against the strengths and weaknesses of those who would like to see a new relationship with our European partners that is less liberal, less open and less engaged. We need to choose political ground that we can easily defend and from which we can credibly and persuasively attack the more extreme positions of the small but noisy Little Englander element in our party, and beyond."
You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.
If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.
Exactly.
If you have a favourite old pub that is taken over by a brewer and modernised (crap food and Sky blaring out round the clock) then you stop going. Only a bloody fool doesn't change their mind when circumstances change.
What about if it had been turned into a hipster microbrewery? ;-)
You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.
If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.
Also many of its rules were made by unanimity and freedom of workers (not people) was a practical tool to support doing business in Europe, amongst a group of broadly income equivalent prosperous countries, saving places like southern Italy, Spain and Portugal but movements were small enough not to be an issue.
You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.
If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.
Exactly.
If you have a favourite old pub that is taken over by a brewer and modernised (crap food and Sky blaring out round the clock) then you stop going. Only a bloody fool doesn't change their mind when circumstances change.
What about if it had been turned into a hipster microbrewery? ;-)
I don't know why Remainers struggle to grasp that the Single Market isn't the problem, it's all the other baggage that came with it and the crap that has accumulated over the decades that is the problem.
Most Leavers would be quite happy with an EU where we got to pick the bits we like but refuse the bits we don't.
Obviously anyone would be happy if we could pick the bits we like and not the bits we didn't.... but if every country did that then there would be no EU.
I think the problem was the EU moving to Qualified Majority Voting and the loss of national vetoes. The EU tried to move too fast when they should have been content with building a system with more need for compromise, or a recognition that not everything needs to be standardised in one go and that sometimes its OK to disagree.
I think a lot of that baggage is actually part and parcel of the single market. Not all - but definitely a lot of it. Obviously anyone would be happy if we could pick the bits we like and not the bits we didn't.... but if every country did that then there would be no EU.
I agree, we certainly didn't realise the long term implications of some of the things we signed up for. So it is as much our fault as the EU's, but even saying that the EU has developed in ways that have very little support in the UK, and our influence has had little effect.
You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.
If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.
Also many of its rules were made by unanimity and freedom of workers (not people) was a practical tool to support doing business in Europe, amongst a group of broadly income equivalent prosperous countries, saving places like southern Italy, Spain and Portugal but movements were small enough not to be an issue.
The main argument seems to be that if you like something once, you have to like it forever, no backsies. Anyway, out with the dogs, play nicely ladies .
"We need to be utterly unsentimental in our assessment of our political strengths and weaknesses when set against the strengths and weaknesses of those who would like to see a new relationship with our European partners that is less liberal, less open and less engaged. We need to choose political ground that we can easily defend and from which we can credibly and persuasively attack the more extreme positions of the small but noisy Little Englander element in our party, and beyond."
I don't know why Remainers struggle to grasp that the Single Market isn't the problem, it's all the other baggage that came with it and the crap that has accumulated over the decades that is the problem.
Most Leavers would be quite happy with an EU where we got to pick the bits we like but refuse the bits we don't.
And what's wrong with that?
At French restaurants you can opt for the all-inclusive prix-fix, at a decent discount, but you can also pay more and go a-la-carte.
Europhobia was shown by the referendum to be a specifically English psychosis, the narcissistic outcome of a specifically English crisis of identity.
Wales also voted Leave
"The pattern of voting showed up a colossal divergence between England, with its Welsh appendage, on the one hand, and Scotland and Northern Ireland on the other."
The author sounds a nice chap.
I can't say I find his amateur psychoanalysis very persuasive.
But he has 'a degree', which qualifies him to pontificate on the mental state of Europe's lager louts, the English. In fact it has just granted him the ability to talk out of his arse with zero self-awareness.
Fen-Poly - what do you expect?
Oi! I went to that Fen-Poly! And you'll incur TSE's wrath now.
You
The Complete University Guide 2017’s rankings have been topped by Cambridge and the Other Place.
Bristol is still highly ranked* on the world stage, due some fantastic research. But these rankings place a lot of emphasis on undergraduate "service", and there are a number of traditional unis that have been overtaken by the likes of Warwick for the "service" they deliver.
* I can't remember the exact ranking in these world rankings, Top 100, and in the top 10 of UK unis under these metrics.
You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.
If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.
Also many of its rules were made by unanimity and freedom of workers (not people) was a practical tool to support doing business in Europe, amongst a group of broadly income equivalent prosperous countries, saving places like southern Italy, Spain and Portugal but movements were small enough not to be an issue.
The main argument seems to be that if you like something once, you have to like it forever, no backsies. Anyway, out with the dogs, play nicely ladies .
It's a mixture of selective fact-picking, sock-puppeting and confirmation bias to try and wrongfoot ones opponents in the debate.
And it's downright silly. We know (on both sides) how the EU has changed and evolved. And so did the British people, which is why we voted to Leave.
You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.
If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.
Exactly.
If you have a favourite old pub that is taken over by a brewer and modernised (crap food and Sky blaring out round the clock) then you stop going. Only a bloody fool doesn't change their mind when circumstances change.
What about if it had been turned into a hipster microbrewery? ;-)
Even worse!
I made that mistake the other week. In a town I was unfamiliar with, walked into what looked like a nice old boozer, served by a bearded tattooed younger gentleman looking rather rock-a-billy...still not twigged...ordered a pint, asked if they did food, said yes, ordered some standard bar food meal without really looking at price...that will be £25...
At French restaurants you can opt for the all-inclusive prix-fix, at a decent discount, but you can also pay more and go a-la-carte.
In principle that's what I'd like the EU to be like, lots and lots of national variations, not just an inner core and a couple of reluctant members dragged along. It wouldn't be as efficient, but I believe it would be a hell of a lot more popular, and not just in the UK.
You also have to remember in the 80s this was pre- fall of the berlin wall. The EU didn't have all the eastern european countries in it, and no one would have though it would at the time, including Thatcher.
If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.
Exactly.
If you have a favourite old pub that is taken over by a brewer and modernised (crap food and Sky blaring out round the clock) then you stop going. Only a bloody fool doesn't change their mind when circumstances change.
What about if it had been turned into a hipster microbrewery? ;-)
I don't know why Remainers struggle to grasp that the Single Market isn't the problem, it's all the other baggage that came with it and the crap that has accumulated over the decades that is the problem.
Most Leavers would be quite happy with an EU where we got to pick the bits we like but refuse the bits we don't.
Obviously anyone would be happy if we could pick the bits we like and not the bits we didn't.... but if every country did that then there would be no EU.
I think the problem was the EU moving to Qualified Majority Voting and the loss of national vetoes. The EU tried to move too fast when they should have been content with building a system with more need for compromise, or a recognition that not everything needs to be standardised in one go and that sometimes its OK to disagree.
Hmm... I think there's definitely some truth in what you say. I think some of that faster movement though was because of the UK's influence.
I personally feel the UK has a share of the blame in this in that our elected representatives at the time either a) did not prioritise/understand Europe or b) actively pushed for things which subsequently we decided we didn't like.
The total nonsense of the UK pushing for Turkey to join for years and then completely reversing course is perhaps a good example.
I made that mistake the other week. In a town I was unfamiliar with, walked into what looked like a nice old boozer, served by a bearded tattooed younger gentleman looking rather rock-a-billy...still not twigged...ordered a pint, asked if they did food, said yes, ordered some standard bar food meal without really looking at price...that will be £25...
I don't have anything against microbreweries in principle, but it does seem to go in hand with high prices.
I made that mistake the other week. In a town I was unfamiliar with, walked into what looked like a nice old boozer, served by a bearded tattooed younger gentleman looking rather rock-a-billy...still not twigged...ordered a pint, asked if they did food, said yes, ordered some standard bar food meal without really looking at price...that will be £25...
I don't have anything against microbreweries in principle, but it does seem to go in hand with high prices.
Talking to the landlord of the pub I use regularly and he said that he ran a pub; a place for people to get together, have a drink and a chat. He, or at leqast his wife, does meals, but a very limited range..... roast on Sunday, lamb shank, etc. Game pie after there’s been a shoot locally.
It’s popular.and the Sunday roast normally sells out.
People such as yourselves are supply and demand deniers, so I doubt anything can change your minds, but what is the point of cheap Labour if it doesn't bring down the cost of Labour?
We've done this before. It brings down the cost of labour for that particular task. What it does to the job prospects of a human being, who is capable of more than one task, is a more complicated question that can't be answered with "Doh, supply and demand".
But since you didn't answer my original question, can I take that to mean that you have no new information on whether the rise in part-time work is related to immigration, and that's just a conclusion you jumped to?
I have been saying for years on here that the mass import of cheap Labour leads to lower wages and less job security. People try to deny it by pointing out the number of people "Employed", this latest data show the lowest paid are now 4 times more likely to be in part time work than 20 years ago. The leader of the Remain campaign warned big business that leaving the EU would push up wages.
I really doubt that the lowest paid men in society are giving up hours to look after the baby either.
Maybe you are right and its all just coincidence
"I really doubt that the lowest paid men in society are giving up hours to look after the baby either."
I know several working-class men (in ex-mining areas as well, for extra points) who have done exactly that.
Childcare is expensive. The person who earns more continues to work, and the one who doesn't looks after the child. Or they both work part-time and split shifts.
I'm all for it. Looking after a kid is fun, and why should women get all the fun.
I know loads of people who have lost hours/wages because of EU immigration but didnt want to have to resort to anecdote
Late to the debate, but how do you know it was because of 'EU immigration' ?
No wonder politicians are so despised and disbelieved:
"Chlorine-soaked chickens will be on sale in British supermarkets if the US gets its way in a post-Brexit trade deal, Nick Clegg has warned."
Each time I go to the supermarket here in the US, I just love picking up my chlorine-soaked chickens.
It's even better than that;
"You tell me, but I suspect the good shoppers of Waitrose and Sainsbury’s and others might be a little bit shocked if, suddenly, they are having to eat this slightly white, chlorine-washed American chicken flesh"
lol
SLIGHTLY WHITE, CHLORINE-WASHED AMERICAN CHICKEN FLESH
Nick Clegg's having fun.
I'm starting to like him again.
Sainsbury's and Waitrose shoppers voted Remain and so their interests are going to be ignored by this government.
I shop at both and voted Leave. Stop posting twaddle
and as your charts show the supermarket is as spilt as the rest of the country
That's exactly what the charts don't show. Both Sainsbury's and Waitrose are skewed to Remain.
I appreciate that you wanted to huff and puff and I'm sorry to have to bring you up short with data. I do try to take care when trolling to make sure that I am on a secure footing before doing so.
I only shop at Sainsbury's and Waitrose.
And M&S.
Indeed. I even found Waitrose products in sale in Zurich at Manor Food!
Meeks is projecting, as usual.
I can buy a fair range of Waitrose products in Cebu City here in the Philippines, they have partnered with the local upscale supermarket Rustans.
Comments
I would be very surprised if there was a majority of less than 450 for the Brexit Bill.
Technically you're correct either way: if 300 Tories + 10 others + 140 Labour MPs vote for it, then its 450 votes to 200 (a mixture of probably 100 or so against and 100 abstentions)
But it could also be passed by only 350 to 300 (300 Tories + 10 others + 40 Labour MPs) with 100 votes against, but almost 200 abstentions - i.e. the vast bulk of Labour MPs abstaining.
In reality, I expect (Labour) to add a couple of amendments to it, particularly because Kier is competent, and the bill will pass. But, if these relate to the customs union and single market - supported by some Tories - May is in trouble.
MT brought us in and TM takes us out
Cluck Cluck Cluck
If Brexit goes right you can say "I did not oppose Brexit"
If Brexit goes wrong you can say "I did not vote for Brexit"
I don't think that they should take this line, but they might.
Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.
It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.'
Who wouldn't?
There are fairly thorough checks on baggage anyway due to security concerns. The interesting thing is the EIRE/UK border on the island of Ireland. I'm sure some arrangement could be reached there, or spot check customs posts for lorries/HGVS on a few key roads - i.e. regular movement and the CTA would be unaffected - with the PSNI doing intelligence led customs busts inside Ulster.
Yes, some contraband will get through, in the same way some people in lorries get through the UK border, even though we're outside Schengen, but it should work well enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz2seWWrXxQ
Who would have thought that the party of Maggie and buccaneering capitalism would eventually slink away from it in a huff.
* I can't remember the exact ranking in these world rankings, Top 100, and in the top 10 of UK unis under these metrics.
It isn't a single market in services but it is a single market in workers.
https://twitter.com/portraitinflesh/status/821307361281314816
Ted Heath took us into the Common Market.
Bring back the Common Market.
1 Free movement of Labour
and
2 Free movement of People?
1 applies to Single Market
2 applies to Full EU membership.
The distinction between labour - i.e., employees - and people may have escaped non-native English speakers in the EU. That's our only hope ...
A former Scotland international footballer and his ex-teammate were ruled to be rapists and ordered to pay £100,000 in damages.
A mother-of-one, who was left "devastated" by a Crown decision not to prosecute, sued striker David Goodwillie and his then Dundee United colleague David Robertson claiming that they raped her at a flat in Armadale, in West Lothian, after a night out in nearby Bathgate.
The woman said she could not remember what had happened since she was in a Bathgate bar until she woke up in the strange flat the following morning.
https://stv.tv/news/east-central/1378283-footballer-david-goodwillie-raped-woman-at-flat-judge-rules/?utm_content=buffer9c11b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
- Interfering EU judges coming at laws from a different philosophical and historical basis
- EU enlargement
- Political apparatus of a superstate without democratic basis
So basically, with the single market we were sold a pup.
If the EU still consisted of pretty much only Western European countries, then the view of it might be rather different.
I'd have voted Remain in '90, but against after Maastricht. Was hopeful DC would get some real reform so that I could have voted Remain in '16, but it wasn't to be.
Most Leavers would be quite happy with an EU where we got to pick the bits we like but refuse the bits we don't.
If you have a favourite old pub that is taken over by a brewer and modernised (crap food and Sky blaring out round the clock) then you stop going. Only a bloody fool doesn't change their mind when circumstances change.
http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/01/nick-boles-liberal-conservatives-must-abandon-fantasies-about-staying-in-the-single-market.html
"We need to be utterly unsentimental in our assessment of our political strengths and weaknesses when set against the strengths and weaknesses of those who would like to see a new relationship with our European partners that is less liberal, less open and less engaged. We need to choose political ground that we can easily defend and from which we can credibly and persuasively attack the more extreme positions of the small but noisy Little Englander element in our party, and beyond."
At French restaurants you can opt for the all-inclusive prix-fix, at a decent discount, but you can also pay more and go a-la-carte.
And it's downright silly. We know (on both sides) how the EU has changed and evolved. And so did the British people, which is why we voted to Leave.
I personally feel the UK has a share of the blame in this in that our elected representatives at the time either a) did not prioritise/understand Europe or b) actively pushed for things which subsequently we decided we didn't like.
The total nonsense of the UK pushing for Turkey to join for years and then completely reversing course is perhaps a good example.
"Brexit means brexit."
And that's it.
Hopefully she will hide a few song titles in he speech, just to make it fun.
"In terms of the single market, I can confirm that we're never gonna give you up." That sort of thing.
https://twitter.com/isaby/status/821322107732819968/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
It’s popular.and the Sunday roast normally sells out.