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viewcode said:
We should introduce her to Randy Bumgardner[1]MarqueeMark said:
Unlikely then to be ennobled and become Lady Gardner....Sunil_Prasannan said:English Gardner - name of a US lady sprinter
[1] Yes he is a real person, and he works at the Blair House, where the White House puts up visiting dignitaries. And no doubt he keeps it really clean and fresh...
During my FCO days, I had dealings with an Australian Lady Gardner, who was the British representative on the UN Commission on the Status of Women.
Full title Baroness Trixie Gardner of Parkes. I think her husband was Lord Mayor of Westminster.0 -
You're right. We must have only one election about everything ever, and nobody must ever disagree with the outcome...Paul_Bedfordshire said:That they feel intense disgust because people exercised their democratic right to vote in a way that remainers didn't reveals rather more about the remainers than they intended to reveal.
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Baroness Trixie? Superb, a chap can't go far wrong with an upper class lady who calls herself Trixie. Well, probably he can go very far wrong but he will at least enjoy the ride.MTimT said:viewcode said:
We should introduce her to Randy Bumgardner[1]MarqueeMark said:
Unlikely then to be ennobled and become Lady Gardner....Sunil_Prasannan said:English Gardner - name of a US lady sprinter
[1] Yes he is a real person, and he works at the Blair House, where the White House puts up visiting dignitaries. And no doubt he keeps it really clean and fresh...
During my FCO days, I had dealings with an Australian Lady Gardner, who was the British representative on the UN Commission on the Status of Women.
Full title Baroness Trixie Gardner of Parkes. I think her husband was Lord Mayor of Westminster.
I think you have been away from these shores for too long though when you talk about the Lord Mayor of Westminster. No such post exists, there is only one Lord Mayor in London and he/she is the Lord Mayor of London (and it ain't that Khan bloke).0 -
Yep. I had my passport nicked there. Amazing setting though and parts of the city are stunning. Three hours to the airport, if you're lucky.David_Evershed said:
Breathtaking scenery.SouthamObserver said:Rio is an absolute nightmare to get around. The locals - very wisely - stick to their areas. And a lot of the venues are on the edge of town. It's a lovely-looking place, Rio; but totally dysfunctional. I am not a fan!
Beautiful people.
No plugs in the hotel basin or bath.
Take only taxis of known operators.
Avoid being mugged by gangs of 12 year olds.
It's that sort of place.
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Probably, government by the enlightened and all that!MTimT said:
I used to respect antifrank, but this Meeks fellow is both arrogant (anyone who does not share his viewpoint on Europe is uncivilized) and hysterical - a very unattractive combination - and anti-democratic on top of all that. Perhaps he'd feel happier if only the landed gentry had the vote.HYUFD said:
Seems soIndigo said:
Christ on a bike is Meeks still crying about this! 40% of Londoners voted to leave for heaven sakes.HYUFD said:
London will only go independent when NYC, Paris, Tokyo etc do too. While London did vote Remain 5 boroughs voted Leave and plenty of wealthier parts of the country outside London voted RemainAlastairMeeks said:
Victim blaming, I seeCharles said:
Alistair, you're doing yourself no favours. Your attitude is why so many of our countryfolk despite the people of the metropolis.AlastairMeeks said:
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, it's not a question of fear.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
London without England would be cut adrift, diminished and ultimately irrelevant.
The arrogance with which the country mice expect Londoners to subsidise their hobby horses is breathtaking.0 -
But I am not wrong, as there used to be such a post - "He was the first Australian to be the Lord Mayor of Westminster."HurstLlama said:
Baroness Trixie? Superb, a chap can't go far wrong with an upper class lady who calls herself Trixie. Well, probably he can go very far wrong but he will at least enjoy the ride.MTimT said:viewcode said:
We should introduce her to Randy Bumgardner[1]MarqueeMark said:
Unlikely then to be ennobled and become Lady Gardner....Sunil_Prasannan said:English Gardner - name of a US lady sprinter
[1] Yes he is a real person, and he works at the Blair House, where the White House puts up visiting dignitaries. And no doubt he keeps it really clean and fresh...
During my FCO days, I had dealings with an Australian Lady Gardner, who was the British representative on the UN Commission on the Status of Women.
Full title Baroness Trixie Gardner of Parkes. I think her husband was Lord Mayor of Westminster.
I think you have been away from these shores for too long though when you talk about the Lord Mayor of Westminster. No such post exists, there is only one Lord Mayor in London and he/she is the Lord Mayor of London (and it ain't that Khan bloke).
See under family, Kevin Gardner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trixie_Gardner,_Baroness_Gardner_of_Parkes0 -
On the emotional/philosophical arguments I think Leave and Remain each had one good argument. Be master of your own ship (Leave); it's good to be connected (Remain). I guess they balance each other out. So it comes down to practicalities. My opinion is very firm that Britain's interests are best served by remaining in the EU - Partly because we are already in. It's not an equivalence. Change means disruption so the alternative has to be enough better that it's worth the grief. Partly because I think it is better for us to be in anyway. Partly because the way we went about Brexit was dumb - we voted to leave without considering the alternatives. It turns out that all the alternatives are problematic in different ways. We have choices but the only choice that has definitively been ruled out is probably the best one.John_M said:
Oddly, you're probably the poster who I feel is most aligned to my own outlook on here, though we voted differently. You have that air of emotional detachment.FF43 said:
The emotion is strange, I agree. However, the EU will be the central political issue for Britain over the next ten years, and not in a helpful way. In my view.John_M said:
Some people get emotional about the EU - on both sides. It's a puzzle to me. It's just an institution. I generally vote Tory, but Labour and the Lib Dems have some good ideas. For example, I was wrong about the minimum wage - it's not perfect but overall is probably a net public good. The EU has done useful work and often means well. It's neither an unalloyed good or an evil empire.FF43 said:Pro-Brexit staff are suing their employers for "cultural bullying" from their morally superior pro-Remain colleagues, according to the Daily Telegraph They are drawing on a "philosophical beliefs" protection provided by a directive from the otherwise hateful EU.
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues0 -
Another extraordinary thread of comments from Mr Meeks. I am getting really cheesed off with this though as no sooner do I pick up the toys thrown out of the pram and sterilise the spat out dummy it starts all over again.
How is one expected to keep the thread tidy if this keeps happening I ask you?
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Had I known what I now know about the WTO (in fairness, it's not at all obvious), I would likely have voted Remain, though of course, it's hard to assess these things in hindsight.FF43 said:
On the emotional/philosophical arguments I think Leave and Remain each had one good argument. Be master of your own ship (Leave); it's good to be connected (Remain). I guess they balance each other out. So it comes down to practicalities. My opinion is very firm that Britain's interests are best served by remaining in the EU - Partly because we are already in. It's not an equivalence. Change means disruption so the alternative has to be enough better that it's worth the grief. Partly because I think it is better for us to be in anyway. Partly because the way we went about Brexit was dumb - we voted to leave without considering the alternatives. It turns out that all the alternatives are problematic in different ways. We have choices but the only choice that has definitively been ruled out is probably the best one.John_M said:
Oddly, you're probably the poster who I feel is most aligned to my own outlook on here, though we voted differently. You have that air of emotional detachment.FF43 said:
The emotion is strange, I agree. However, the EU will be the central political issue for Britain over the next ten years, and not in a helpful way. In my view.John_M said:
Some people get emotional about the EU - on both sides. It's a puzzle to me. It's just an institution. I generally vote Tory, but Labour and the Lib Dems have some good ideas. For example, I was wrong about the minimum wage - it's not perfect but overall is probably a net public good. The EU has done useful work and often means well. It's neither an unalloyed good or an evil empire.FF43 said:Pro-Brexit staff are suing their employers for "cultural bullying" from their morally superior pro-Remain colleagues, according to the Daily Telegraph They are drawing on a "philosophical beliefs" protection provided by a directive from the otherwise hateful EU.
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues0 -
Nothing wrong with thinking that full-franchise democracy may not be the most optimal system of government. There are many cogent arguments going back over centuries that would suggest it is not, quite apart from what we have been living through for the past 80 years or so.HYUFD said:
Probably, government by the enlightened and all that!MTimT said:
I used to respect antifrank, but this Meeks fellow is both arrogant (anyone who does not share his viewpoint on Europe is uncivilized) and hysterical - a very unattractive combination - and anti-democratic on top of all that. Perhaps he'd feel happier if only the landed gentry had the vote.HYUFD said:
Seems soIndigo said:
Christ on a bike is Meeks still crying about this! 40% of Londoners voted to leave for heaven sakes.HYUFD said:
London will only go independent when NYC, Paris, Tokyo etc do too. While London did vote Remain 5 boroughs voted Leave and plenty of wealthier parts of the country outside London voted RemainAlastairMeeks said:
Victim blaming, I seeCharles said:
Alistair, you're doing yourself no favours. Your attitude is why so many of our countryfolk despite the people of the metropolis.AlastairMeeks said:
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, it's not a question of fear.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
London without England would be cut adrift, diminished and ultimately irrelevant.
The arrogance with which the country mice expect Londoners to subsidise their hobby horses is breathtaking.
However, to suggest that only the people that vote for a policy should have to pay for it, that people who are in the minority should be allowed to opt out and all the other, frankly, deranged stuff, that has been put forward on here by some recently, suggests that some people are in need of help.0 -
There was a great mispronunciation on Radio 5 this morning. When talking about today's rowing someone referred to the "cockless eight".0
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Disagree. Leave won in large part because the referendum was about immigration. Remain had no answer.FF43 said:
On the emotional/philosophical arguments I think Leave and Remain each had one good argument. Be master of your own ship (Leave); it's good to be connected (Remain). I guess they balance each other out. So it comes down to practicalities. My opinion is very firm that Britain's interests are best served by remaining in the EU - Partly because we are already in. It's not an equivalence. Change means disruption so the alternative has to be enough better that it's worth the grief. Partly because I think it is better for us to be in anyway. Partly because the way we went about Brexit was dumb - we voted to leave without considering the alternatives. It turns out that all the alternatives are problematic in different ways. We have choices but the only choice that has definitively been ruled out is probably the best one.John_M said:
Oddly, you're probably the poster who I feel is most aligned to my own outlook on here, though we voted differently. You have that air of emotional detachment.FF43 said:
The emotion is strange, I agree. However, the EU will be the central political issue for Britain over the next ten years, and not in a helpful way. In my view.John_M said:
Some people get emotional about the EU - on both sides. It's a puzzle to me. It's just an institution. I generally vote Tory, but Labour and the Lib Dems have some good ideas. For example, I was wrong about the minimum wage - it's not perfect but overall is probably a net public good. The EU has done useful work and often means well. It's neither an unalloyed good or an evil empire.FF43 said:Pro-Brexit staff are suing their employers for "cultural bullying" from their morally superior pro-Remain colleagues, according to the Daily Telegraph They are drawing on a "philosophical beliefs" protection provided by a directive from the otherwise hateful EU.
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues
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In the case of Nepal they are rightMalmesbury said:
It seems that number of people should re-read Orwells "Notes on Nationalism". It is still the best work on the nature and working of Nationalism and how people relate to it.HYUFD said:
Seems soIndigo said:
Christ on a bike is Meeks still crying about this! 40% of Londoners voted to leave for heaven sakes.HYUFD said:
London will only go independent when NYC, Paris, Tokyo etc do too. While London did vote Remain 5 boroughs voted Leave and plenty of wealthier parts of the country outside London voted RemainAlastairMeeks said:
Victim blaming, I seeCharles said:
Alistair, you're doing yourself no favours. Your attitude is why so many of our countryfolk despite the people of the metropolis.AlastairMeeks said:
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, it's not a question of fear.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
London without England would be cut adrift, diminished and ultimately irrelevant.
The arrogance with which the country mice expect Londoners to subsidise their hobby horses is breathtaking.
In it, he details how Nationalist thought works and how some people were transferring their nationalistic feelings to trans-national groupings - Communism, Socialism etc
It is quite clear that a portion of Remainers are, in fact Euronationalists. Hence the visceral upset, anger and denial etc.
Incidentally, *all* countries dislike their capital cities. The French (outside Paris, or course) hate Paris, the Romainians dislike Bucharest and so on.
Indeed those Nepalese I have met from outside the captial regard Kathmandu as full of idiots who spend their money on dubious exercises at the behest of the large number of foreigners (and foreign interests) that infest the place. Plus the cost of housing there is crazy, because of foreign fools buying up houses at ridiculous prices. 0 -
The BBC mini films used as an intro to each Olympics broadcast are just banal filler. What is the use of a rugby commentator as a voiceover aiming to achieve? Drama? Authenticity?0
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Or you could sit back in your chair, take a deep breath - and then laugh at these displays of impotent rage. Works for me.Moses_ said:Another extraordinary thread of comments from Mr Meeks. I am getting really cheesed off with this though as no sooner do I pick up the toys thrown out of the pram and sterilise the spat out dummy it starts all over again.
How is one expected to keep the thread tidy if this keeps happening I ask you?0 -
Agree. Even on a neurolinguistic level Remain lost. Phrases like 'free movement', 'visa-free travel' are now perceived as threats rather than freedoms.SouthamObserver said:Disagree. Leave won in large part because the referendum was about immigration. Remain had no answer.
It was clear from many of the vox pops that some people believed that the EU's free movement policy applied to anyone from anywhere in the world.0 -
MTimT said:
I used to respect antifrank, but this Meeks fellow is both arrogant (anyone who does not share his viewpoint on Europe is uncivilized) and hysterical - a very unattractive combination - and anti-democratic on top of all that. Perhaps he'd feel happier if only the landed gentry had the vote.HYUFD said:
Seems soIndigo said:
Christ on a bike is Meeks still crying about this! 40% of Londoners voted to leave for heaven sakes.HYUFD said:
London will only go independent when NYC, Paris, Tokyo etc do too. While London did vote Remain 5 boroughs voted Leave and plenty of wealthier parts of the country outside London voted RemainAlastairMeeks said:
Victim blaming, I seeCharles said:
Alistair, you're doing yourself no favours. Your attitude is why so many of our countryfolk despite the people of the metropolis.AlastairMeeks said:
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, it's not a question of fear.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
London without England would be cut adrift, diminished and ultimately irrelevant.
The arrogance with which the country mice expect Londoners to subsidise their hobby horses is breathtaking.
I fear he'd find the landed gentry voted to Leave!0 -
Spent some time in Rio on business. Had little lime to look around but since I had a couple of hours in the morning, before departure, I decided to take a walk on the Copacabana which was near my hotel. Was harassed/mugged by a couple of youngsters who insisted on polishing my shoes with an unknown substance. I managed to get them to go away with a few coins from my pocket. I managed to hold on to a $10 note which I had held in my hand with the coins.SouthamObserver said:
Yep. I had my passport nicked there. Amazing setting though and parts of the city are stunning. Three hours to the airport, if you're lucky.David_Evershed said:
Breathtaking scenery.SouthamObserver said:Rio is an absolute nightmare to get around. The locals - very wisely - stick to their areas. And a lot of the venues are on the edge of town. It's a lovely-looking place, Rio; but totally dysfunctional. I am not a fan!
Beautiful people.
No plugs in the hotel basin or bath.
Take only taxis of known operators.
Avoid being mugged by gangs of 12 year olds.
It's that sort of place.
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It's not about brushes - being pejorative about other people's nationalisms is futile. Indeed that is one of Orwell's major points in the essay. You can identify nationalists by the statements they never, ever, can agree with.williamglenn said:
Any nationalism which is expressed by a specific geographic and cultural area is by definition not the same as a trans-national ideology like communism, otherwise you'd have to tar Scottish 'No' voters with the same brush.Malmesbury said:In it, he details how Nationalist thought works and how some people were transferring their nationalistic feelings to trans-national groupings - Communism, Socialism etc
It is quite clear that a portion of Remainers are, in fact Euronationalists. Hence the visceral upset, anger and denial etc.
Denis Healey was closer to the bone with his remark that, "their Europeanism is nothing but imperialism with an inferiority complex."
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
Euronationalism is indeed predicated, in part, as a push back against a world where European countries seem less and less important. From being the centre of the world in 1900 to what they have today.0 -
Crikey, I stand corrected. Westminster has had a Lord Mayor since 1966. I never knew. My sincere apologies, Mr. T.MTimT said:
But I am not wrong, as there used to be such a post - "He was the first Australian to be the Lord Mayor of Westminster."HurstLlama said:
Baroness Trixie? Superb, a chap can't go far wrong with an upper class lady who calls herself Trixie. Well, probably he can go very far wrong but he will at least enjoy the ride.MTimT said:viewcode said:
We should introduce her to Randy Bumgardner[1]MarqueeMark said:
Unlikely then to be ennobled and become Lady Gardner....Sunil_Prasannan said:English Gardner - name of a US lady sprinter
[1] Yes he is a real person, and he works at the Blair House, where the White House puts up visiting dignitaries. And no doubt he keeps it really clean and fresh...
During my FCO days, I had dealings with an Australian Lady Gardner, who was the British representative on the UN Commission on the Status of Women.
Full title Baroness Trixie Gardner of Parkes. I think her husband was Lord Mayor of Westminster.
I think you have been away from these shores for too long though when you talk about the Lord Mayor of Westminster. No such post exists, there is only one Lord Mayor in London and he/she is the Lord Mayor of London (and it ain't that Khan bloke).
See under family, Kevin Gardner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trixie_Gardner,_Baroness_Gardner_of_Parkes0 -
Cracking cat/mouse from Aus beating German in cycling sprint.0
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I did Island Line on the late May Bank Holiday!Paul_Bedfordshire said:
And presumably the only safe way.ThomasNashe said:
All that is true. It does have a surprisingly efficient underground, though (by far the best way to get from the beaches to the city centre).David_Evershed said:
Breathtaking scenery.SouthamObserver said:Rio is an absolute nightmare to get around. The locals - very wisely - stick to their areas. And a lot of the venues are on the edge of town. It's a lovely-looking place, Rio; but totally dysfunctional. I am not a fan!
Beautiful people.
No plugs in the hotel basin or bath.
Take only taxis of known operators.
Avoid being mugged by gangs of 12 year olds.
It's that sort of place.
Beaches with Underground stations on them does sound cool though.
Although we have one on the Isle of Wight with an underground station - sort of.
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/753297194979950593
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/7532977881343590400 -
@Moses
'Another extraordinary thread of comments from Mr Meeks. I am getting really cheesed off with this though as no sooner do I pick up the toys thrown out of the pram and sterilise the spat out dummy it starts all over again.'
Agree at 60 or so he should be past his childhood tantrums.0 -
Interesting, Mr. M., had I known what is now claimed as fact (and I am not sure it is) I would still have voted to Leave.John_M said:
Had I known what I now know about the WTO (in fairness, it's not at all obvious), I would likely have voted Remain, though of course, it's hard to assess these things in hindsight.FF43 said:
On the emotional/philosophical arguments I think Leave and Remain each had one good argument. Be master of your own ship (Leave); it's good to be connected (Remain). I guess they balance each other out. So it comes down to practicalities. My opinion is very firm that Britain's interests are best served by remaining in the EU - Partly because we are already in. It's not an equivalence. Change means disruption so the alternative has to be enough better that it's worth the grief. Partly because I think it is better for us to be in anyway. Partly because the way we went about Brexit was dumb - we voted to leave without considering the alternatives. It turns out that all the alternatives are problematic in different ways. We have choices but the only choice that has definitively been ruled out is probably the best one.John_M said:
Oddly, you're probably the poster who I feel is most aligned to my own outlook on here, though we voted differently. You have that air of emotional detachment.FF43 said:
The emotion is strange, I agree. However, the EU will be the central political issue for Britain over the next ten years, and not in a helpful way. In my view.John_M said:
Some people get emotional about the EU - on both sides. It's a puzzle to me. It's just an institution. I generally vote Tory, but Labour and the Lib Dems have some good ideas. For example, I was wrong about the minimum wage - it's not perfect but overall is probably a net public good. The EU has done useful work and often means well. It's neither an unalloyed good or an evil empire.FF43 said:Pro-Brexit staff are suing their employers for "cultural bullying" from their morally superior pro-Remain colleagues, according to the Daily Telegraph They are drawing on a "philosophical beliefs" protection provided by a directive from the otherwise hateful EU.
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues0 -
I've endured a couple and they're awful smaltz.TCPoliticalBetting said:The BBC mini films used as an intro to each Olympics broadcast are just banal filler. What is the use of a rugby commentator as a voiceover aiming to achieve? Drama? Authenticity?
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I love the fact that the Lord High Steward of Westminster Abbey is deemed such an onerous role that the incumbent needs to have an ex officio Lord Mayor to deputise!MTimT said:
But I am not wrong, as there used to be such a post - "He was the first Australian to be the Lord Mayor of Westminster."HurstLlama said:
Baroness Trixie? Superb, a chap can't go far wrong with an upper class lady who calls herself Trixie. Well, probably he can go very far wrong but he will at least enjoy the ride.MTimT said:viewcode said:
We should introduce her to Randy Bumgardner[1]MarqueeMark said:
Unlikely then to be ennobled and become Lady Gardner....Sunil_Prasannan said:English Gardner - name of a US lady sprinter
[1] Yes he is a real person, and he works at the Blair House, where the White House puts up visiting dignitaries. And no doubt he keeps it really clean and fresh...
During my FCO days, I had dealings with an Australian Lady Gardner, who was the British representative on the UN Commission on the Status of Women.
Full title Baroness Trixie Gardner of Parkes. I think her husband was Lord Mayor of Westminster.
I think you have been away from these shores for too long though when you talk about the Lord Mayor of Westminster. No such post exists, there is only one Lord Mayor in London and he/she is the Lord Mayor of London (and it ain't that Khan bloke).
See under family, Kevin Gardner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trixie_Gardner,_Baroness_Gardner_of_Parkes0 -
I'm probably just having a @SeanT momentHurstLlama said:
Interesting, Mr. M., had I known what is now claimed as fact (and I am not sure it is) I would still have voted to Leave.John_M said:
Had I known what I now know about the WTO (in fairness, it's not at all obvious), I would likely have voted Remain, though of course, it's hard to assess these things in hindsight.FF43 said:
On the emotional/philosophical arguments I think Leave and Remain each had one good argument. Be master of your own ship (Leave); it's good to be connected (Remain). I guess they balance each other out. So it comes down to practicalities. My opinion is very firm that Britain's interests are best served by remaining in the EU - Partly because we are already in. It's not an equivalence. Change means disruption so the alternative has to be enough better that it's worth the grief. Partly because I think it is better for us to be in anyway. Partly because the way we went about Brexit was dumb - we voted to leave without considering the alternatives. It turns out that all the alternatives are problematic in different ways. We have choices but the only choice that has definitively been ruled out is probably the best one.John_M said:
Oddly, you're probably the poster who I feel is most aligned to my own outlook on here, though we voted differently. You have that air of emotional detachment.FF43 said:
The emotion is strange, I agree. However, the EU will be the central political issue for Britain over the next ten years, and not in a helpful way. In my view.John_M said:
Some people get emotional about the EU - on both sides. It's a puzzle to me. It's just an institution. I generally vote Tory, but Labour and the Lib Dems have some good ideas. For example, I was wrong about the minimum wage - it's not perfect but overall is probably a net public good. The EU has done useful work and often means well. It's neither an unalloyed good or an evil empire.FF43 said:Pro-Brexit staff are suing their employers for "cultural bullying" from their morally superior pro-Remain colleagues, according to the Daily Telegraph They are drawing on a "philosophical beliefs" protection provided by a directive from the otherwise hateful EU.
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues. Please forgive me. 0 -
I would characterise it as a resolve to undo the damage of the suicidal decades of the first half of the 20th century. It's less a push back against an outside world on the rise, than a determination to rebuild and ensure that Europe remains the centre of European civilisation.Malmesbury said:Euronationalism is indeed predicated, in part, as a push back against a world where European countries seem less and less important. From being the centre of the world in 1900 to what they have today.
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I'm most entertained by them. And all the signs were there for years before Brexit 'we don't need farmers/rural people should move to cities if they want public services' et al.MarqueeMark said:
Or you could sit back in your chair, take a deep breath - and then laugh at these displays of impotent rage. Works for me.Moses_ said:Another extraordinary thread of comments from Mr Meeks. I am getting really cheesed off with this though as no sooner do I pick up the toys thrown out of the pram and sterilise the spat out dummy it starts all over again.
How is one expected to keep the thread tidy if this keeps happening I ask you?0 -
No biggie.HurstLlama said:
Crikey, I stand corrected. Westminster has had a Lord Mayor since 1966. I never knew. My sincere apologies, Mr. T.MTimT said:
But I am not wrong, as there used to be such a post - "He was the first Australian to be the Lord Mayor of Westminster."HurstLlama said:
Baroness Trixie? Superb, a chap can't go far wrong with an upper class lady who calls herself Trixie. Well, probably he can go very far wrong but he will at least enjoy the ride.MTimT said:viewcode said:
We should introduce her to Randy Bumgardner[1]MarqueeMark said:
Unlikely then to be ennobled and become Lady Gardner....Sunil_Prasannan said:English Gardner - name of a US lady sprinter
[1] Yes he is a real person, and he works at the Blair House, where the White House puts up visiting dignitaries. And no doubt he keeps it really clean and fresh...
During my FCO days, I had dealings with an Australian Lady Gardner, who was the British representative on the UN Commission on the Status of Women.
Full title Baroness Trixie Gardner of Parkes. I think her husband was Lord Mayor of Westminster.
I think you have been away from these shores for too long though when you talk about the Lord Mayor of Westminster. No such post exists, there is only one Lord Mayor in London and he/she is the Lord Mayor of London (and it ain't that Khan bloke).
See under family, Kevin Gardner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trixie_Gardner,_Baroness_Gardner_of_Parkes0 -
I'm more concerned about representation without taxation.HurstLlama said:
Nothing wrong with thinking that full-franchise democracy may not be the most optimal system of government. There are many cogent arguments going back over centuries that would suggest it is not, quite apart from what we have been living through for the past 80 years or so.HYUFD said:
Probably, government by the enlightened and all that!MTimT said:
I used to respect antifrank, but this Meeks fellow is both arrogant (anyone who does not share his viewpoint on Europe is uncivilized) and hysterical - a very unattractive combination - and anti-democratic on top of all that. Perhaps he'd feel happier if only the landed gentry had the vote.HYUFD said:
Seems soIndigo said:
Christ on a bike is Meeks still crying about this! 40% of Londoners voted to leave for heaven sakes.HYUFD said:
London will only go independent when NYC, Paris, Tokyo etc do too. While London did vote Remain 5 boroughs voted Leave and plenty of wealthier parts of the country outside London voted RemainAlastairMeeks said:
Victim blaming, I seeCharles said:
Alistair, you're doing yourself no favours. Your attitude is why so many of our countryfolk despite the people of the metropolis.AlastairMeeks said:
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, it's not a question of fear.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
London without England would be cut adrift, diminished and ultimately irrelevant.
The arrogance with which the country mice expect Londoners to subsidise their hobby horses is breathtaking.
However, to suggest that only the people that vote for a policy should have to pay for it, that people who are in the minority should be allowed to opt out and all the other, frankly, deranged stuff, that has been put forward on here by some recently, suggests that some people are in need of help.
There are huge issues with taking people out of the primary income tax - most people don't realise they are paying VAT etc - as it distorts decision making at elections0 -
I don't think we disagree. I was talking about my own opinions on Brexit, which I admit is an indulgence on PB. In general I would say Leave tapped into real grievances about globalisation, however dishonestly, while Remain were very condescending towards people who felt there was a problem, even if they were probably correctSouthamObserver said:
Disagree. Leave won in large part because the referendum was about immigration. Remain had no answer.FF43 said:
On the emotional/philosophical arguments I think Leave and Remain each had one good argument. Be master of your own ship (Leave); it's good to be connected (Remain). I guess they balance each other out. So it comes down to practicalities. My opinion is very firm that Britain's interests are best served by remaining in the EU - Partly because we are already in. It's not an equivalence. Change means disruption so the alternative has to be enough better that it's worth the grief. Partly because I think it is better for us to be in anyway. Partly because the way we went about Brexit was dumb - we voted to leave without considering the alternatives. It turns out that all the alternatives are problematic in different ways. We have choices but the only choice that has definitively been ruled out is probably the best one.John_M said:
Oddly, you're probably the poster who I feel is most aligned to my own outlook on here, though we voted differently. You have that air of emotional detachment.FF43 said:
The emotion is strange, I agree. However, the EU will be the central political issue for Britain over the next ten years, and not in a helpful way. In my view.John_M said:
Some people get emotional about the EU - on both sides. It's a puzzle to me. It's just an institution. I generally vote Tory, but Labour and the Lib Dems have some good ideas. For example, I was wrong about the minimum wage - it's not perfect but overall is probably a net public good. The EU has done useful work and often means well. It's neither an unalloyed good or an evil empire.FF43 said:Pro-Brexit staff are suing their employers for "cultural bullying" from their morally superior pro-Remain colleagues, according to the Daily Telegraph They are drawing on a "philosophical beliefs" protection provided by a directive from the otherwise hateful EU.
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues0 -
Croatian and Kiwi in the rowing are a deadheat on times to hundredths of a second. Kiwi wins it on photo by tiniest of margins - thousandths of a second....0
-
I think that is true, Mr. Observer, and indeed said so on here on the run up to the vote when leave still had double digit polling leads. However, it is not the whole truth. Perhaps the reason Leave won was a combination of those worried about "importing" (I know you don't like the term in this context, but let it go for now, eh?) the equivalent of the city of Cardiff every year and those who felt that the UK should be governed by the people of the UK elect.SouthamObserver said:
Disagree. Leave won in large part because the referendum was about immigration. Remain had no answer.
Now, one might argue that most of the people who voted did not understand the actual issues in question but then they equally do not at every general election.0 -
Cruz is really disliked, the only reason he git close this time is the last gasp effort to unite around a single non Trump candidate. Ryan stands a good chance.HYUFD said:
If as is likely Trump loses, Cruz may well be nominee in 2020, a protectionist, nationalist followed by a staunch social conservativeFF43 said:OT I think Trump has broken the coalition that has made up the Republican Party since Reagan and Gary Johnson is part of the new direction that will arise from the ashes of the Trump attempt on the White House. Reagan brought social conservatives together with business interests and fiscal conservatives. Neither Trump nor Johnson has any time for social conservatives and they will be the big losers. While I don't expect corporate interests to disappear, there are no votes in being seen to support the lobby. I expect Republicans to make their pitches on competence, devolution (States' rights) and getting Big Government out of people's lives
0 -
Its not entirely surprising that the Euro elite are a bit wary of democracies after what the weak post WW1 democracies turned into in the 1920s and 30s.williamglenn said:
I would characterise it as a resolve to undo the damage of the suicidal decades of the first half of the 20th century. It's less a push back against an outside world on the rise, than a determination to rebuild and ensure that Europe remains the centre of European civilisation.Malmesbury said:Euronationalism is indeed predicated, in part, as a push back against a world where European countries seem less and less important. From being the centre of the world in 1900 to what they have today.
The problem is that the euro elite has become very 'high' and is becoming an aristocracy in its views and thought processes0 -
I thought he just edged it when I saw it the first time, and was surprised they initially called it a dead-heat.MarqueeMark said:Croatian and Kiwi in the rowing are a deadheat on times to hundredths of a second. Kiwi wins it on photo by tiniest of margins - thousandths of a second....
0 -
Yep, agree.FF43 said:
I don't think we disagree. I was talking about my own opinions on Brexit, which I admit is an indulgence on PB. In general I would say Leave tapped into real grievances about globalisation, however dishonestly, while Remain were very condescending towards people who felt there was a problem, even if they were probably correctSouthamObserver said:
Disagree. Leave won in large part because the referendum was about immigration. Remain had no answer.FF43 said:
On the emotional/philosophical arguments I think Leave and Remain each had one good argument. Be master of your own ship (Leave); it's good to be connected (Remain). I guess they balance each other out. So it comes down to practicalities. My opinion is very firm that Britain's interests are best served by remaining in the EU - Partly because we are already in. It's not an equivalence. Change means disruption so the alternative has to be enough better that it's worth the grief. Partly because I think it is better for us to be in anyway. Partly because the way we went about Brexit was dumb - we voted to leave without considering the alternatives. It turns out that all the alternatives are problematic in different ways. We have choices but the only choice that has definitively been ruled out is probably the best one.John_M said:
Oddly, you're probably the poster who I feel is most aligned to my own outlook on here, though we voted differently. You have that air of emotional detachment.FF43 said:
The emotion is strange, I agree. However, the EU will be the central political issue for Britain over the next ten years, and not in a helpful way. In my view.John_M said:
Some people get emotional about the EU - on both sides. It's a puzzle to me. It's just an institution. I generally vote Tory, but Labour and the Lib Dems have some good ideas. For example, I was wrong about the minimum wage - it's not perfect but overall is probably a net public good. The EU has done useful work and often means well. It's neither an unalloyed good or an evil empire.FF43 said:Pro-Brexit staff are suing their employers for "cultural bullying" from their morally superior pro-Remain colleagues, according to the Daily Telegraph They are drawing on a "philosophical beliefs" protection provided by a directive from the otherwise hateful EU.
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues
0 -
The discus guys are YUGE!MarqueeMark said:Croatian and Kiwi in the rowing are a deadheat on times to hundredths of a second. Kiwi wins it on photo by tiniest of margins - thousandths of a second....
0 -
What the heck do you do when the most powerful print media present any disagreement as "condescension"?FF43 said:
I don't think we disagree. I was talking about my own opinions on Brexit, which I admit is an indulgence on PB. In general I would say Leave tapped into real grievances about globalisation, however dishonestly, while Remain were very condescending towards people who felt there was a problem, even if they were probably correctSouthamObserver said:
Disagree. Leave won in large part because the referendum was about immigration. Remain had no answer.
People whipped themselves up into a belief that intolerant elites were calling them racist, even though there was no evidence for it. What it reveals about their innermost thoughts, I don't know.0 -
Can you provide some links to denials by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms (I suspect you mean identities, but whatevs), and denials that UK nationalism can exist by 'the more extreme Nats'?Malmesbury said:
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.0 -
The Gold medallist from the London Olympics is not that yuge, only 3” taller than his wife...PlatoSaid said:
The discus guys are YUGE!MarqueeMark said:Croatian and Kiwi in the rowing are a deadheat on times to hundredths of a second. Kiwi wins it on photo by tiniest of margins - thousandths of a second....
0 -
On the contrary, the EU is thoroughly democratic and democracy is seen as both a prerequisite of EU membership and a bulwark against authoritarianism (the latter is in question nowadays). Power is distributed among separate governmental and inter-governmental bodies to a much greater extent than in the UK, and at all levels the leaders are chosen by the people or their representatives, just as HM Government is chosen by the people's representatives.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Its not entirely surprising that the Euro elite are a bit wary of democracies after what the weak post WW1 democracies turned into in the 1920s and 30s.williamglenn said:
I would characterise it as a resolve to undo the damage of the suicidal decades of the first half of the 20th century. It's less a push back against an outside world on the rise, than a determination to rebuild and ensure that Europe remains the centre of European civilisation.Malmesbury said:Euronationalism is indeed predicated, in part, as a push back against a world where European countries seem less and less important. From being the centre of the world in 1900 to what they have today.
The problem is that the euro elite has become very 'high' and is becoming an aristocracy in its views and thought processes0 -
That nationalism guide in full:Theuniondivvie said:
Can you provide some links to denials by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms (I suspect you mean identities, but whatevs), and denials that UK nationalism can exist by 'the more extreme Nats'?Malmesbury said:
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.
European nationalism = perverted elitist scum
English and British nationalism = brave, heroic freedom fighters on behalf of the world's most historically-oppressed but also world-beating race
Scottish nationalism = dumb Jocks0 -
Lovely Brexiteer twitter account:Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Scent of an unwashed Woman #FeministAMovie"0 -
There is plenty of evidence.EPG said:
What the heck do you do when the most powerful print media present any disagreement as "condescension"?FF43 said:
I don't think we disagree. I was talking about my own opinions on Brexit, which I admit is an indulgence on PB. In general I would say Leave tapped into real grievances about globalisation, however dishonestly, while Remain were very condescending towards people who felt there was a problem, even if they were probably correctSouthamObserver said:
Disagree. Leave won in large part because the referendum was about immigration. Remain had no answer.
People whipped themselves up into a belief that intolerant elites were calling them racist, even though there was no evidence for it. What it reveals about their innermost thoughts, I don't know.0 -
And that critique applies equally to people on both sides of any voting divide.HurstLlama said:
Now, one might argue that most of the people who voted did not understand the actual issues in question but then they equally do not at every general election.0 -
I think a lot of the more extreme reaction stems from the fact that that the government used EU membership to force an entire (small l liberal) agenda on the UK that they would never have got through parliament normally but were able to wave it through with statutory orders on the grounds that EU membership makes it compulsory.FF43 said:<
I don't think we disagree. I was talking about my own opinions on Brexit, which I admit is an indulgence on PB. In general I would say Leave tapped into real grievances about globalisation, however dishonestly, while Remain were very condescending towards people who felt there was a problem, even if they were probably correct
I think it is the fear that this will be unravelled that drives the emotional response
One of the most far reaching I recall was the ECHR or ECJ (can't remember which) setting aside the £11,000 maximium industrial payment in harassment and discrimination, soon afterwards tribunals started awarding lottery sums to people who were victims of politically incorrect actions.
That caused absolute panic among companies who started writing diversity and equality policies and rules in all directions and gave a massive boost to the whole PC diversity and equality agenda.
This might well be unravelled with say a £25,000 maximum payout on such cases in tribunals at which point companies will ditch their equality policies - or serious observation of them. - Not having to do police their employees speech and actions so much and being able to just hire who they feel like without reams of paperwork demonstrating they have been objective will save particularly small companies a fortune.
I suspect this is what is keeping remainers awake at night.0 -
Womens 8s very close
Silver! First for us.
0 -
Lol.EPG said:
On the contrary, the EU is thoroughly democratic and democracy is seen as both a prerequisite of EU membership and a bulwark against authoritarianism (the latter is in question nowadays). Power is distributed among separate governmental and inter-governmental bodies to a much greater extent than in the UK, and at all levels the leaders are chosen by the people or their representatives, just as HM Government is chosen by the people's representatives.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Its not entirely surprising that the Euro elite are a bit wary of democracies after what the weak post WW1 democracies turned into in the 1920s and 30s.williamglenn said:
I would characterise it as a resolve to undo the damage of the suicidal decades of the first half of the 20th century. It's less a push back against an outside world on the rise, than a determination to rebuild and ensure that Europe remains the centre of European civilisation.Malmesbury said:Euronationalism is indeed predicated, in part, as a push back against a world where European countries seem less and less important. From being the centre of the world in 1900 to what they have today.
The problem is that the euro elite has become very 'high' and is becoming an aristocracy in its views and thought processes
Requiring subject governments to be democratic is not the same as being democratic yourself.
Wasn't it that ardent Europhile Chris 'Fat Pang' Patten who described the European Commission as as democratic as North Korea?0 -
What a bizarre story. It seems like he did not even need the money:PlatoSaid said:
"Cottrell, who is thought to be worth around £250million"0 -
So we can go back to the 1970s? Sounds great. I'm so looking forward to the great leap backwards of the next 20 years.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I think a lot of the more extreme reaction stems from the fact that that the government used EU membership to force an entire (small l liberal) agenda on the UK that they would never have got through parliament normally but were able to wave it through with statutory orders on the grounds that EU membership makes it compulsory.FF43 said:<
I don't think we disagree. I was talking about my own opinions on Brexit, which I admit is an indulgence on PB. In general I would say Leave tapped into real grievances about globalisation, however dishonestly, while Remain were very condescending towards people who felt there was a problem, even if they were probably correct
I think it is the fear that this will be unravelled that drives the emotional response
One of the most far reaching I recall was the ECHR or ECJ (can't remember which) setting aside the £11,000 maximium industrial payment in harassment and discrimination, soon afterwards tribunals started awarding lottery sums to people who were victims of politically incorrect actions.
That caused absolute panic among companies who started writing diversity and equality policies and rules in all directions and gave a massive boost to the whole PC diversity and equality agenda.
This might well be unravelled with say a £25,000 maximum payout on such cases in tribunals at which point companies will ditch their equality policies - or serious observation of them. - Not having to do police their employees speech and actions so much and being able to just hire who they feel like without reams of paperwork demonstrating they have been objective will save particularly small companies a fortune.
I suspect this is what is keeping remainers awake at night.0 -
LEAVE 52%EPG said:
REMAIN 48%
Suck it up, EPG 0 -
That was phenomenal. What a performance.PlatoSaid said:Womens 8s very close
Silver! First for us.0 -
Before long you'll be arguing for a unified EU Olympics team!EPG said:
That nationalism guide in full:Theuniondivvie said:
Can you provide some links to denials by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms (I suspect you mean identities, but whatevs), and denials that UK nationalism can exist by 'the more extreme Nats'?Malmesbury said:
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.
European nationalism = perverted elitist scum
English and British nationalism = brave, heroic freedom fighters on behalf of the world's most historically-oppressed but also world-beating race
Scottish nationalism = dumb Jocks0 -
We're not doing too bad "away from home" are we?AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
That was phenomenal. What a performance.PlatoSaid said:Womens 8s very close
Silver! First for us.0 -
Serious stuff.PlatoSaid said:
"He and Mr Farage spent three days at the Republican Convention, where they had a packed schedule of television appearances and meetings with US senators as well as discussions with aides to presidential candidate Donald Trump.
It now appears that Cottrell was being watched by FBI officers throughout the trip."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3737641/Farage-aide-held-money-laundering-claims-Son-glamour-model-dated-Prince-Charles-facing-years-jail-offering-services-dark-web.html0 -
They look like they have recruited Brienne of Tarth into that Eight....PlatoSaid said:Womens 8s very close
Silver! First for us.0 -
So far, Maryland has 11 Golds and 4 Silvers at Rio. Helps to have both Phelps and Ledecki on your team (each 4 Golds and 1 Silver).
For the curious, the other MD medal winners are Jack Conger, Cierra Runge (a gold a piece), Alison Schmidt (Gold and Silver), and Chase Kalisz (Silver). All swimmers.
Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Durant also played high school basketball in MD. So at least one more medal there.0 -
I don't have access to telepathy so I cannot confirm or deny your assessment of people's internal state.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I think a lot of the more extreme reaction stems from the fact that that the government used EU membership to force an entire (small l liberal) agenda on the UK that they would never have got through parliament normally but were able to wave it through with statutory orders on the grounds that EU membership makes it compulsory.FF43 said:<
I don't think we disagree. I was talking about my own opinions on Brexit, which I admit is an indulgence on PB. In general I would say Leave tapped into real grievances about globalisation, however dishonestly, while Remain were very condescending towards people who felt there was a problem, even if they were probably correct
I think it is the fear that this will be unravelled that drives the emotional response
One of the most far reaching I recall was the ECHR or ECJ (can't remember which) setting aside the £11,000 maximium industrial payment in harassment and discrimination, soon afterwards tribunals started awarding lottery sums to people who were victims of politically incorrect actions.
That caused absolute panic among companies who started writing diversity and equality policies and rules in all directions and gave a massive boost to the whole PC diversity and equality agenda.
This might well be unravelled with say a £25,000 maximum payout on such cases in tribunals at which point companies will ditch their equality policies - or serious observation of them. - Not having to do police their employees speech and actions so much and being able to just hire who they feel like without reams of paperwork demonstrating they have been objective will save particularly small companies a fortune.
I suspect this is what is keeping remainers awake at night.0 -
From last with 1000m to goAramintaMoonbeamQC said:
That was phenomenal. What a performance.PlatoSaid said:Womens 8s very close
Silver! First for us.
0 -
Ledecki is amazing - saw her this morning, just miles ahead and effortless.MTimT said:So far, Maryland has 11 Golds and 4 Silvers at Rio. Helps to have both Phelps and Ledecki on your team (each 4 Golds and 1 Silver).
For the curious, the other MD medal winners are Jack Conger, Cierra Runge (a gold a piece), Alison Schmidt (Gold and Silver), and Chase Kalisz (Silver). All swimmers.
Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Durant also played high school basketball in MD. So at least one more medal there.0 -
I think she's shot-putting for Poland too.MarqueeMark said:
They look like they have recruited Brienne of Tarth into that Eight....PlatoSaid said:Womens 8s very close
Silver! First for us.0 -
Another gold! Mens 8s0
-
Gold!0
-
Easy...easy...easy....0
-
Fact check: is this even slightly true? I know that the UK is nowhere near food sufficiency and hasn't been for decades (centuries?). It never occurred to me to add RoI to things, simply because it's a different country. But even given that, I doubt this. Ireland hasn't got the climate to grow large-enough quantities of wheat or corn, and as for fruit production (grape, bananas, oranges, peaches. etc) it's pretty much a non-starter in terms of bulk production. I'm willing to believe it produces beef, lamb, anything that can be produced by herding grazing animals that don't mind rain. But again, I can't see it producing nearly enough to feed the ~65million population of the UK as well as itself.Paul_Bedfordshire said:The British Isles are self sufficient in food
(PS Paul_Bedfordshire, I need to point out that I'm not picking on you with this post: it's just that the claim is so contra-intuitive it triggered my factcheck gene)
0 -
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Tyson must be having a meltdown...all these medals in poshos sports.0
-
76% in home-grown foods according DEFRA in March 2016.viewcode said:
Fact check: is this even slightly true? I know that the UK is nowhere near food sufficiency and hasn't been for decades (centuries?). It never occurred to me to add RoI to things, simply because it's a different country. But even given that, I doubt this. Ireland hasn't got the climate to grow large quantities of wheat or corn, and as for fruit production (grape, bananas, oranges, peaches. etc) it's pretty much a non-starter in terms of bulk production. I'm willing to believe it produces beef, lamb, anything that can be produced by herding grazing animals that don't mind rain. But again, I can't see it producing nearly enough to feed the ~65million population of the UK as well as itself.Paul_Bedfordshire said:The British Isles are self sufficient in food
(PS Paul_Bedfordshire, I need to point out that I'm not picking on you with this post: it's just that the claim is so contra-intuitive it triggered my factcheck gene)
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515048/food-farming-stats-release-07apr16.pdf0 -
I remember back in the early 80s being astonished to find out that the UK produced more grain than the Ukraine.John_M said:
76% in home-grown foods according DEFRA in March 2016.viewcode said:
Fact check: is this even slightly true? I know that the UK is nowhere near food sufficiency and hasn't been for decades (centuries?). It never occurred to me to add RoI to things, simply because it's a different country. But even given that, I doubt this. Ireland hasn't got the climate to grow large quantities of wheat or corn, and as for fruit production (grape, bananas, oranges, peaches. etc) it's pretty much a non-starter in terms of bulk production. I'm willing to believe it produces beef, lamb, anything that can be produced by herding grazing animals that don't mind rain. But again, I can't see it producing nearly enough to feed the ~65million population of the UK as well as itself.Paul_Bedfordshire said:The British Isles are self sufficient in food
(PS Paul_Bedfordshire, I need to point out that I'm not picking on you with this post: it's just that the claim is so contra-intuitive it triggered my factcheck gene)
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515048/food-farming-stats-release-07apr16.pdf0 -
FrancisUrquhart said:
Tyson must be having a meltdown...all these medals in poshos sports.
Glorious weather in Rio, packed out stands and both eights in the medals, - it doesn’t get any better than this.0 -
If you follow Orwell's ideas on Nationalism, it is perfectly possible to have nationalistic feelings towards a number of tiers of geography and ideology. Hence people who have such feelings towards part of a city, city, region, nation etc...Theuniondivvie said:
Can you provide some links to denials by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms (I suspect you mean identities, but whatevs), and denials that UK nationalism can exist by 'the more extreme Nats'?Malmesbury said:
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.
Without wishing to start fights, the denial of UK nationalism has occurred on PB. A couple of the hardcore nationalists in my own family have expressed such views. To them the idea of divided national identity is so repellent that they can't conceive the idea. Pointing out their.... feelings towards Glasgow vs Edinburgh makes things worse, strangely.
I am not being negative about other people's Nationalisms. Pretty much everyone has them, and attacking them is about as sensible as attacking other people's religious choices.
It is a good idea to recognise they exist though. To many people, it's a bit of an irregular verb:
"I am sensible in the feature of my society that I like"
"You are a nationalist"
"He is fascist scum"
0 -
Lol.EPG said:
That nationalism guide in full:Theuniondivvie said:
Can you provide some links to denials by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms (I suspect you mean identities, but whatevs), and denials that UK nationalism can exist by 'the more extreme Nats'?Malmesbury said:
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.
European nationalism = perverted elitist scum
English and British nationalism = brave, heroic freedom fighters on behalf of the world's most historically-oppressed but also world-beating race
Scottish nationalism = dumb Jocks
'We are now going to demonstrate our national ascendancy through the medium of dressage.'*
*The Germans don't really count as they're pretendy Anglo Saxons obviously.0 -
Good afternoon, everyone.
F1 gossip: Renault reportedly struggling to recruit:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/37008344
Money for next year should be sound but they also need top chaps to improve their car. This will limit their points potential (I'm thinking of dipping my toe into spread betting next year, so will be paying closer attention to this sort of thing).
On that note, of the four suggestions for spread betting I made in my mid-season piece, three have nudged in a positive direction, one is unchanged [or went out and came back in].0 -
It seems it could but you wouldn't want it to have to:viewcode said:
Fact check: is this even slightly true? I know that the UK is nowhere near food sufficiency and hasn't been for decades (centuries?). It never occurred to me to add RoI to things, simply because it's a different country. But even given that, I doubt this. Ireland hasn't got the climate to grow large-enough quantities of wheat or corn, and as for fruit production (grape, bananas, oranges, peaches. etc) it's pretty much a non-starter in terms of bulk production. I'm willing to believe it produces beef, lamb, anything that can be produced by herding grazing animals that don't mind rain. But again, I can't see it producing nearly enough to feed the ~65million population of the UK as well as itself.Paul_Bedfordshire said:The British Isles are self sufficient in food
(PS Paul_Bedfordshire, I need to point out that I'm not picking on you with this post: it's just that the claim is so contra-intuitive it triggered my factcheck gene)
' In December 1939 Elsie Widdowson and Robert McCance of the University of Cambridge tested whether the United Kingdom could survive with only domestic food production if U-boats ended all imports. Using 1938 food-production data, they fed themselves and other volunteers one egg, one pound of meat, and four ounces of fish a week; one quarter pint of milk a day; four ounces of margarine; and unlimited amounts of potatoes, vegetables, and wholemeal bread. Two weeks of intensive outdoor exercise simulated the strenuous wartime physical work Britons would likely have to perform. The scientists found that the subjects' health and performance remained very good after three months, with the only negative results being the increased time needed for meals to consume the necessary calories from bread and potatoes, and what they described as a “remarkable” increase in flatulence from the high amount of starch in the diet. The scientists also noted that their faeces had increased by 250% in volume. '
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationing_in_the_United_Kingdom
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TUD above has written down the views of an un-reconstructed UK nationalist.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Before long you'll be arguing for a unified EU Olympics team!EPG said:
That nationalism guide in full:Theuniondivvie said:
Can you provide some links to denials by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms (I suspect you mean identities, but whatevs), and denials that UK nationalism can exist by 'the more extreme Nats'?Malmesbury said:
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.
European nationalism = perverted elitist scum
English and British nationalism = brave, heroic freedom fighters on behalf of the world's most historically-oppressed but also world-beating race
Scottish nationalism = dumb Jocks
My point is that the Euronationalists and the Scottish nationalists would simply move the definitions on the right hand side around a bit.0 -
It probably still does.MTimT said:
I remember back in the early 80s being astonished to find out that the UK produced more grain than the Ukraine.John_M said:
76% in home-grown foods according DEFRA in March 2016.viewcode said:
Fact check: is this even slightly true? I know that the UK is nowhere near food sufficiency and hasn't been for decades (centuries?). It never occurred to me to add RoI to things, simply because it's a different country. But even given that, I doubt this. Ireland hasn't got the climate to grow large quantities of wheat or corn, and as for fruit production (grape, bananas, oranges, peaches. etc) it's pretty much a non-starter in terms of bulk production. I'm willing to believe it produces beef, lamb, anything that can be produced by herding grazing animals that don't mind rain. But again, I can't see it producing nearly enough to feed the ~65million population of the UK as well as itself.Paul_Bedfordshire said:The British Isles are self sufficient in food
(PS Paul_Bedfordshire, I need to point out that I'm not picking on you with this post: it's just that the claim is so contra-intuitive it triggered my factcheck gene)
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515048/food-farming-stats-release-07apr16.pdf
Anyway I see Trump's self destructing behaviour continues.
While Hillary is saying to her supporters to go and vote, Trump is screaming "It's rigged!!" so his supporters won't even bother to vote, since "it's rigged!!!" anyway.0 -
I think Redgrave & inverdale will be glad the punting is over!0
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Womens team pursuit - golly this is thrilling
WR!!!!!!!!!!!!0 -
@PlatoSaid
Just seen some of your posts on Twitter regarding labeling of meat.
This row needs to be simply addressed. Proper food labeling. You want your animals slaughtered halal/kosher style, fine it will be labelled as that. You want to take in meat from overseas and process it in the UK, fine it will be labelled as that - not as British when the wretched animal never drew breath over here.0 -
Gold medal in bl88dy super chapishness.
It was never in doubt0 -
Hanover must count, it was british (well under the same king) till 1837.Theuniondivvie said:
Lol.EPG said:
That nationalism guide in full:Theuniondivvie said:
Can you provide some links to denials by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms (I suspect you mean identities, but whatevs), and denials that UK nationalism can exist by 'the more extreme Nats'?Malmesbury said:
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.
European nationalism = perverted elitist scum
English and British nationalism = brave, heroic freedom fighters on behalf of the world's most historically-oppressed but also world-beating race
Scottish nationalism = dumb Jocks
'We are now going to demonstrate our national ascendancy through the medium of dressage.'*
*The Germans don't really count as they're pretendy Anglo Saxons obviously.0 -
Women's team pursuit into the final versus USA, another world record, silver in the bag.0
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World record !0
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Can we reboot the football season pls...0
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England up against it in the test, can we bat long enough for a draw ?0
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Here comes those shit 3d logos!0
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No...next.Pulpstar said:England up against it in the test, can we bat long enough for a draw ?
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It's a scandal that it's not being robustly addressed - more cultural cringing.HurstLlama said:@PlatoSaid
Just seen some of your posts on Twitter regarding labeling of meat.
This row needs to be simply addressed. Proper food labeling. You want your animals slaughtered halal/kosher style, fine it will be labelled as that. You want to take in meat from overseas and process it in the UK, fine it will be labelled as that - not as British when the wretched animal never drew breath over here.0 -
Dier and Kane both in my fantasy team. Bad start from Fuchs today !Scrapheap_as_was said:Can we reboot the football season pls...
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I admire Redgraves achievements, but he's always been a total miserable git. I have no interest in seeing him present anything. Inverdale makes me smile and enjoy something. Redgrave implies I ought to be up before dawn and wearing sackcloth to really appreciate it.FrancisUrquhart said:I think Redgrave & inverdale will be glad the punting is over!
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The UK pop'n in 1939 was ~48million: it's ~64million now. But then again, food production efficiency has increased drastically since then, so it's probably still doable. So the UK could actually be self-sufficient in food if it stuck to fish, eggs, meat, milk, veg, spuds and bread. While I can't help thinking that that's rather an admirable diet, it would probably have to be imposed rather than chosen ("DEATH TO BANANA-EATERS!" "HEY, YOU! YES, YOU WITH THE ORANGE! HALT, OR I FIRE!").another_richard said:
It seems it could but you wouldn't want it to have to:viewcode said:
Fact check: is this even slightly true? I know that the UK is nowhere near food sufficiency and hasn't been for decades (centuries?). It never occurred to me to add RoI to things, simply because it's a different country. But even given that, I doubt this. Ireland hasn't got the climate to grow large-enough quantities of wheat or corn, and as for fruit production (grape, bananas, oranges, peaches. etc) it's pretty much a non-starter in terms of bulk production. I'm willing to believe it produces beef, lamb, anything that can be produced by herding grazing animals that don't mind rain. But again, I can't see it producing nearly enough to feed the ~65million population of the UK as well as itself.Paul_Bedfordshire said:The British Isles are self sufficient in food
(PS Paul_Bedfordshire, I need to point out that I'm not picking on you with this post: it's just that the claim is so contra-intuitive it triggered my factcheck gene)
' In December 1939 Elsie Widdowson and Robert McCance of the University of Cambridge tested whether the United Kingdom could survive with only domestic food production if U-boats ended all imports. Using 1938 food-production data, they fed themselves and other volunteers one egg, one pound of meat, and four ounces of fish a week; one quarter pint of milk a day; four ounces of margarine; and unlimited amounts of potatoes, vegetables, and wholemeal bread. Two weeks of intensive outdoor exercise simulated the strenuous wartime physical work Britons would likely have to perform. The scientists found that the subjects' health and performance remained very good after three months, with the only negative results being the increased time needed for meals to consume the necessary calories from bread and potatoes, and what they described as a “remarkable” increase in flatulence from the high amount of starch in the diet. The scientists also noted that their faeces had increased by 250% in volume. '
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationing_in_the_United_Kingdom
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'Redgrave implies I ought to be up before dawn and wearing sackcloth to really appreciate it.'
Looking at the coverage, I am wondering if there is a mental health issue there. Titanic olympian, used to the cut and thrust of competition, at a bit of a loose end these days...
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I'm reclining in the buff, enjoying the rays, with lots of rose... Glorious.John_M said:
And the discus is ace!0
This discussion has been closed.