[1] Yes he is a real person, and he works at the Blair House, where the White House puts up visiting dignitaries. And no doubt he keeps it really clean and fresh...
During my FCO days, I had dealings with an Australian Lady Gardner, who was the British representative on the UN Commission on the Status of Women.
Full title Baroness Trixie Gardner of Parkes. I think her husband was Lord Mayor of Westminster.
That they feel intense disgust because people exercised their democratic right to vote in a way that remainers didn't reveals rather more about the remainers than they intended to reveal.
You're right. We must have only one election about everything ever, and nobody must ever disagree with the outcome...
[1] Yes he is a real person, and he works at the Blair House, where the White House puts up visiting dignitaries. And no doubt he keeps it really clean and fresh...
During my FCO days, I had dealings with an Australian Lady Gardner, who was the British representative on the UN Commission on the Status of Women.
Full title Baroness Trixie Gardner of Parkes. I think her husband was Lord Mayor of Westminster.
Baroness Trixie? Superb, a chap can't go far wrong with an upper class lady who calls herself Trixie. Well, probably he can go very far wrong but he will at least enjoy the ride.
I think you have been away from these shores for too long though when you talk about the Lord Mayor of Westminster. No such post exists, there is only one Lord Mayor in London and he/she is the Lord Mayor of London (and it ain't that Khan bloke).
Rio is an absolute nightmare to get around. The locals - very wisely - stick to their areas. And a lot of the venues are on the edge of town. It's a lovely-looking place, Rio; but totally dysfunctional. I am not a fan!
Breathtaking scenery.
Beautiful people.
No plugs in the hotel basin or bath.
Take only taxis of known operators.
Avoid being mugged by gangs of 12 year olds.
It's that sort of place.
Yep. I had my passport nicked there. Amazing setting though and parts of the city are stunning. Three hours to the airport, if you're lucky.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
Alistair, you're doing yourself no favours. Your attitude is why so many of our countryfolk despite the people of the metropolis.
London without England would be cut adrift, diminished and ultimately irrelevant.
Victim blaming, I see
The arrogance with which the country mice expect Londoners to subsidise their hobby horses is breathtaking.
London will only go independent when NYC, Paris, Tokyo etc do too. While London did vote Remain 5 boroughs voted Leave and plenty of wealthier parts of the country outside London voted Remain
Christ on a bike is Meeks still crying about this! 40% of Londoners voted to leave for heaven sakes.
Seems so
I used to respect antifrank, but this Meeks fellow is both arrogant (anyone who does not share his viewpoint on Europe is uncivilized) and hysterical - a very unattractive combination - and anti-democratic on top of all that. Perhaps he'd feel happier if only the landed gentry had the vote.
Probably, government by the enlightened and all that!
[1] Yes he is a real person, and he works at the Blair House, where the White House puts up visiting dignitaries. And no doubt he keeps it really clean and fresh...
During my FCO days, I had dealings with an Australian Lady Gardner, who was the British representative on the UN Commission on the Status of Women.
Full title Baroness Trixie Gardner of Parkes. I think her husband was Lord Mayor of Westminster.
Baroness Trixie? Superb, a chap can't go far wrong with an upper class lady who calls herself Trixie. Well, probably he can go very far wrong but he will at least enjoy the ride.
I think you have been away from these shores for too long though when you talk about the Lord Mayor of Westminster. No such post exists, there is only one Lord Mayor in London and he/she is the Lord Mayor of London (and it ain't that Khan bloke).
But I am not wrong, as there used to be such a post - "He was the first Australian to be the Lord Mayor of Westminster."
Pro-Brexit staff are suing their employers for "cultural bullying" from their morally superior pro-Remain colleagues, according to the Daily Telegraph They are drawing on a "philosophical beliefs" protection provided by a directive from the otherwise hateful EU.
Some people get emotional about the EU - on both sides. It's a puzzle to me. It's just an institution. I generally vote Tory, but Labour and the Lib Dems have some good ideas. For example, I was wrong about the minimum wage - it's not perfect but overall is probably a net public good. The EU has done useful work and often means well. It's neither an unalloyed good or an evil empire.
The emotion is strange, I agree. However, the EU will be the central political issue for Britain over the next ten years, and not in a helpful way. In my view.
Oddly, you're probably the poster who I feel is most aligned to my own outlook on here, though we voted differently. You have that air of emotional detachment.
On the emotional/philosophical arguments I think Leave and Remain each had one good argument. Be master of your own ship (Leave); it's good to be connected (Remain). I guess they balance each other out. So it comes down to practicalities. My opinion is very firm that Britain's interests are best served by remaining in the EU - Partly because we are already in. It's not an equivalence. Change means disruption so the alternative has to be enough better that it's worth the grief. Partly because I think it is better for us to be in anyway. Partly because the way we went about Brexit was dumb - we voted to leave without considering the alternatives. It turns out that all the alternatives are problematic in different ways. We have choices but the only choice that has definitively been ruled out is probably the best one.
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues
Another extraordinary thread of comments from Mr Meeks. I am getting really cheesed off with this though as no sooner do I pick up the toys thrown out of the pram and sterilise the spat out dummy it starts all over again.
How is one expected to keep the thread tidy if this keeps happening I ask you?
Pro-Brexit staff are suing their employers for "cultural bullying" from their morally superior pro-Remain colleagues, according to the Daily Telegraph They are drawing on a "philosophical beliefs" protection provided by a directive from the otherwise hateful EU.
Some people get emotional about the EU - on both sides. It's a puzzle to me. It's just an institution. I generally vote Tory, but Labour and the Lib Dems have some good ideas. For example, I was wrong about the minimum wage - it's not perfect but overall is probably a net public good. The EU has done useful work and often means well. It's neither an unalloyed good or an evil empire.
The emotion is strange, I agree. However, the EU will be the central political issue for Britain over the next ten years, and not in a helpful way. In my view.
Oddly, you're probably the poster who I feel is most aligned to my own outlook on here, though we voted differently. You have that air of emotional detachment.
On the emotional/philosophical arguments I think Leave and Remain each had one good argument. Be master of your own ship (Leave); it's good to be connected (Remain). I guess they balance each other out. So it comes down to practicalities. My opinion is very firm that Britain's interests are best served by remaining in the EU - Partly because we are already in. It's not an equivalence. Change means disruption so the alternative has to be enough better that it's worth the grief. Partly because I think it is better for us to be in anyway. Partly because the way we went about Brexit was dumb - we voted to leave without considering the alternatives. It turns out that all the alternatives are problematic in different ways. We have choices but the only choice that has definitively been ruled out is probably the best one.
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues
Had I known what I now know about the WTO (in fairness, it's not at all obvious), I would likely have voted Remain, though of course, it's hard to assess these things in hindsight.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
Alistair, you're doing yourself no favours. Your attitude is why so many of our countryfolk despite the people of the metropolis.
London without England would be cut adrift, diminished and ultimately irrelevant.
Victim blaming, I see
The arrogance with which the country mice expect Londoners to subsidise their hobby horses is breathtaking.
London will only go independent when NYC, Paris, Tokyo etc do too. While London did vote Remain 5 boroughs voted Leave and plenty of wealthier parts of the country outside London voted Remain
Christ on a bike is Meeks still crying about this! 40% of Londoners voted to leave for heaven sakes.
Seems so
I used to respect antifrank, but this Meeks fellow is both arrogant (anyone who does not share his viewpoint on Europe is uncivilized) and hysterical - a very unattractive combination - and anti-democratic on top of all that. Perhaps he'd feel happier if only the landed gentry had the vote.
Probably, government by the enlightened and all that!
Nothing wrong with thinking that full-franchise democracy may not be the most optimal system of government. There are many cogent arguments going back over centuries that would suggest it is not, quite apart from what we have been living through for the past 80 years or so.
However, to suggest that only the people that vote for a policy should have to pay for it, that people who are in the minority should be allowed to opt out and all the other, frankly, deranged stuff, that has been put forward on here by some recently, suggests that some people are in need of help.
Pro-Brexit staff are suing their employers for "cultural bullying" from their morally superior pro-Remain colleagues, according to the Daily Telegraph They are drawing on a "philosophical beliefs" protection provided by a directive from the otherwise hateful EU.
Some people get emotional about the EU - on both sides. It's a puzzle to me. It's just an institution. I generally vote Tory, but Labour and the Lib Dems have some good ideas. For example, I was wrong about the minimum wage - it's not perfect but overall is probably a net public good. The EU has done useful work and often means well. It's neither an unalloyed good or an evil empire.
The emotion is strange, I agree. However, the EU will be the central political issue for Britain over the next ten years, and not in a helpful way. In my view.
Oddly, you're probably the poster who I feel is most aligned to my own outlook on here, though we voted differently. You have that air of emotional detachment.
On the emotional/philosophical arguments I think Leave and Remain each had one good argument. Be master of your own ship (Leave); it's good to be connected (Remain). I guess they balance each other out. So it comes down to practicalities. My opinion is very firm that Britain's interests are best served by remaining in the EU - Partly because we are already in. It's not an equivalence. Change means disruption so the alternative has to be enough better that it's worth the grief. Partly because I think it is better for us to be in anyway. Partly because the way we went about Brexit was dumb - we voted to leave without considering the alternatives. It turns out that all the alternatives are problematic in different ways. We have choices but the only choice that has definitively been ruled out is probably the best one.
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues
Disagree. Leave won in large part because the referendum was about immigration. Remain had no answer.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
Alistair, you're doing yourself no favours. Your attitude is why so many of our countryfolk despite the people of the metropolis.
London without England would be cut adrift, diminished and ultimately irrelevant.
Victim blaming, I see
The arrogance with which the country mice expect Londoners to subsidise their hobby horses is breathtaking.
London will only go independent when NYC, Paris, Tokyo etc do too. While London did vote Remain 5 boroughs voted Leave and plenty of wealthier parts of the country outside London voted Remain
Christ on a bike is Meeks still crying about this! 40% of Londoners voted to leave for heaven sakes.
Seems so
It seems that number of people should re-read Orwells "Notes on Nationalism". It is still the best work on the nature and working of Nationalism and how people relate to it.
In it, he details how Nationalist thought works and how some people were transferring their nationalistic feelings to trans-national groupings - Communism, Socialism etc
It is quite clear that a portion of Remainers are, in fact Euronationalists. Hence the visceral upset, anger and denial etc.
Incidentally, *all* countries dislike their capital cities. The French (outside Paris, or course) hate Paris, the Romainians dislike Bucharest and so on.
Indeed those Nepalese I have met from outside the captial regard Kathmandu as full of idiots who spend their money on dubious exercises at the behest of the large number of foreigners (and foreign interests) that infest the place. Plus the cost of housing there is crazy, because of foreign fools buying up houses at ridiculous prices.
The BBC mini films used as an intro to each Olympics broadcast are just banal filler. What is the use of a rugby commentator as a voiceover aiming to achieve? Drama? Authenticity?
Another extraordinary thread of comments from Mr Meeks. I am getting really cheesed off with this though as no sooner do I pick up the toys thrown out of the pram and sterilise the spat out dummy it starts all over again.
How is one expected to keep the thread tidy if this keeps happening I ask you?
Or you could sit back in your chair, take a deep breath - and then laugh at these displays of impotent rage. Works for me.
Disagree. Leave won in large part because the referendum was about immigration. Remain had no answer.
Agree. Even on a neurolinguistic level Remain lost. Phrases like 'free movement', 'visa-free travel' are now perceived as threats rather than freedoms.
It was clear from many of the vox pops that some people believed that the EU's free movement policy applied to anyone from anywhere in the world.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
Alistair, you're doing yourself no favours. Your attitude is why so many of our countryfolk despite the people of the metropolis.
London without England would be cut adrift, diminished and ultimately irrelevant.
Victim blaming, I see
The arrogance with which the country mice expect Londoners to subsidise their hobby horses is breathtaking.
London will only go independent when NYC, Paris, Tokyo etc do too. While London did vote Remain 5 boroughs voted Leave and plenty of wealthier parts of the country outside London voted Remain
Christ on a bike is Meeks still crying about this! 40% of Londoners voted to leave for heaven sakes.
Seems so
I used to respect antifrank, but this Meeks fellow is both arrogant (anyone who does not share his viewpoint on Europe is uncivilized) and hysterical - a very unattractive combination - and anti-democratic on top of all that. Perhaps he'd feel happier if only the landed gentry had the vote.
I fear he'd find the landed gentry voted to Leave!
Rio is an absolute nightmare to get around. The locals - very wisely - stick to their areas. And a lot of the venues are on the edge of town. It's a lovely-looking place, Rio; but totally dysfunctional. I am not a fan!
Breathtaking scenery.
Beautiful people.
No plugs in the hotel basin or bath.
Take only taxis of known operators.
Avoid being mugged by gangs of 12 year olds.
It's that sort of place.
Yep. I had my passport nicked there. Amazing setting though and parts of the city are stunning. Three hours to the airport, if you're lucky.
Spent some time in Rio on business. Had little lime to look around but since I had a couple of hours in the morning, before departure, I decided to take a walk on the Copacabana which was near my hotel. Was harassed/mugged by a couple of youngsters who insisted on polishing my shoes with an unknown substance. I managed to get them to go away with a few coins from my pocket. I managed to hold on to a $10 note which I had held in my hand with the coins.
In it, he details how Nationalist thought works and how some people were transferring their nationalistic feelings to trans-national groupings - Communism, Socialism etc
It is quite clear that a portion of Remainers are, in fact Euronationalists. Hence the visceral upset, anger and denial etc.
Any nationalism which is expressed by a specific geographic and cultural area is by definition not the same as a trans-national ideology like communism, otherwise you'd have to tar Scottish 'No' voters with the same brush.
Denis Healey was closer to the bone with his remark that, "their Europeanism is nothing but imperialism with an inferiority complex."
It's not about brushes - being pejorative about other people's nationalisms is futile. Indeed that is one of Orwell's major points in the essay. You can identify nationalists by the statements they never, ever, can agree with.
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
Euronationalism is indeed predicated, in part, as a push back against a world where European countries seem less and less important. From being the centre of the world in 1900 to what they have today.
[1] Yes he is a real person, and he works at the Blair House, where the White House puts up visiting dignitaries. And no doubt he keeps it really clean and fresh...
During my FCO days, I had dealings with an Australian Lady Gardner, who was the British representative on the UN Commission on the Status of Women.
Full title Baroness Trixie Gardner of Parkes. I think her husband was Lord Mayor of Westminster.
Baroness Trixie? Superb, a chap can't go far wrong with an upper class lady who calls herself Trixie. Well, probably he can go very far wrong but he will at least enjoy the ride.
I think you have been away from these shores for too long though when you talk about the Lord Mayor of Westminster. No such post exists, there is only one Lord Mayor in London and he/she is the Lord Mayor of London (and it ain't that Khan bloke).
But I am not wrong, as there used to be such a post - "He was the first Australian to be the Lord Mayor of Westminster."
Rio is an absolute nightmare to get around. The locals - very wisely - stick to their areas. And a lot of the venues are on the edge of town. It's a lovely-looking place, Rio; but totally dysfunctional. I am not a fan!
Breathtaking scenery.
Beautiful people.
No plugs in the hotel basin or bath.
Take only taxis of known operators.
Avoid being mugged by gangs of 12 year olds.
It's that sort of place.
All that is true. It does have a surprisingly efficient underground, though (by far the best way to get from the beaches to the city centre).
And presumably the only safe way.
Beaches with Underground stations on them does sound cool though.
Although we have one on the Isle of Wight with an underground station - sort of.
'Another extraordinary thread of comments from Mr Meeks. I am getting really cheesed off with this though as no sooner do I pick up the toys thrown out of the pram and sterilise the spat out dummy it starts all over again.'
Agree at 60 or so he should be past his childhood tantrums.
Pro-Brexit staff are suing their employers for "cultural bullying" from their morally superior pro-Remain colleagues, according to the Daily Telegraph They are drawing on a "philosophical beliefs" protection provided by a directive from the otherwise hateful EU.
Some people get emotional about the EU - on both sides. It's a puzzle to me. It's just an institution. I generally vote Tory, but Labour and the Lib Dems have some good ideas. For example, I was wrong about the minimum wage - it's not perfect but overall is probably a net public good. The EU has done useful work and often means well. It's neither an unalloyed good or an evil empire.
The emotion is strange, I agree. However, the EU will be the central political issue for Britain over the next ten years, and not in a helpful way. In my view.
Oddly, you're probably the poster who I feel is most aligned to my own outlook on here, though we voted differently. You have that air of emotional detachment.
On the emotional/philosophical arguments I think Leave and Remain each had one good argument. Be master of your own ship (Leave); it's good to be connected (Remain). I guess they balance each other out. So it comes down to practicalities. My opinion is very firm that Britain's interests are best served by remaining in the EU - Partly because we are already in. It's not an equivalence. Change means disruption so the alternative has to be enough better that it's worth the grief. Partly because I think it is better for us to be in anyway. Partly because the way we went about Brexit was dumb - we voted to leave without considering the alternatives. It turns out that all the alternatives are problematic in different ways. We have choices but the only choice that has definitively been ruled out is probably the best one.
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues
Had I known what I now know about the WTO (in fairness, it's not at all obvious), I would likely have voted Remain, though of course, it's hard to assess these things in hindsight.
Interesting, Mr. M., had I known what is now claimed as fact (and I am not sure it is) I would still have voted to Leave.
The BBC mini films used as an intro to each Olympics broadcast are just banal filler. What is the use of a rugby commentator as a voiceover aiming to achieve? Drama? Authenticity?
[1] Yes he is a real person, and he works at the Blair House, where the White House puts up visiting dignitaries. And no doubt he keeps it really clean and fresh...
During my FCO days, I had dealings with an Australian Lady Gardner, who was the British representative on the UN Commission on the Status of Women.
Full title Baroness Trixie Gardner of Parkes. I think her husband was Lord Mayor of Westminster.
Baroness Trixie? Superb, a chap can't go far wrong with an upper class lady who calls herself Trixie. Well, probably he can go very far wrong but he will at least enjoy the ride.
I think you have been away from these shores for too long though when you talk about the Lord Mayor of Westminster. No such post exists, there is only one Lord Mayor in London and he/she is the Lord Mayor of London (and it ain't that Khan bloke).
But I am not wrong, as there used to be such a post - "He was the first Australian to be the Lord Mayor of Westminster."
I love the fact that the Lord High Steward of Westminster Abbey is deemed such an onerous role that the incumbent needs to have an ex officio Lord Mayor to deputise!
Pro-Brexit staff are suing their employers for "cultural bullying" from their morally superior pro-Remain colleagues, according to the Daily Telegraph They are drawing on a "philosophical beliefs" protection provided by a directive from the otherwise hateful EU.
Some people get emotional about the EU - on both sides. It's a puzzle to me. It's just an institution. I generally vote Tory, but Labour and the Lib Dems have some good ideas. For example, I was wrong about the minimum wage - it's not perfect but overall is probably a net public good. The EU has done useful work and often means well. It's neither an unalloyed good or an evil empire.
The emotion is strange, I agree. However, the EU will be the central political issue for Britain over the next ten years, and not in a helpful way. In my view.
Oddly, you're probably the poster who I feel is most aligned to my own outlook on here, though we voted differently. You have that air of emotional detachment.
On the emotional/philosophical arguments I think Leave and Remain each had one good argument. Be master of your own ship (Leave); it's good to be connected (Remain). I guess they balance each other out. So it comes down to practicalities. My opinion is very firm that Britain's interests are best served by remaining in the EU - Partly because we are already in. It's not an equivalence. Change means disruption so the alternative has to be enough better that it's worth the grief. Partly because I think it is better for us to be in anyway. Partly because the way we went about Brexit was dumb - we voted to leave without considering the alternatives. It turns out that all the alternatives are problematic in different ways. We have choices but the only choice that has definitively been ruled out is probably the best one.
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues
Had I known what I now know about the WTO (in fairness, it's not at all obvious), I would likely have voted Remain, though of course, it's hard to assess these things in hindsight.
Interesting, Mr. M., had I known what is now claimed as fact (and I am not sure it is) I would still have voted to Leave.
I'm probably just having a @SeanT moment . Please forgive me.
Euronationalism is indeed predicated, in part, as a push back against a world where European countries seem less and less important. From being the centre of the world in 1900 to what they have today.
I would characterise it as a resolve to undo the damage of the suicidal decades of the first half of the 20th century. It's less a push back against an outside world on the rise, than a determination to rebuild and ensure that Europe remains the centre of European civilisation.
Another extraordinary thread of comments from Mr Meeks. I am getting really cheesed off with this though as no sooner do I pick up the toys thrown out of the pram and sterilise the spat out dummy it starts all over again.
How is one expected to keep the thread tidy if this keeps happening I ask you?
Or you could sit back in your chair, take a deep breath - and then laugh at these displays of impotent rage. Works for me.
I'm most entertained by them. And all the signs were there for years before Brexit 'we don't need farmers/rural people should move to cities if they want public services' et al.
[1] Yes he is a real person, and he works at the Blair House, where the White House puts up visiting dignitaries. And no doubt he keeps it really clean and fresh...
During my FCO days, I had dealings with an Australian Lady Gardner, who was the British representative on the UN Commission on the Status of Women.
Full title Baroness Trixie Gardner of Parkes. I think her husband was Lord Mayor of Westminster.
Baroness Trixie? Superb, a chap can't go far wrong with an upper class lady who calls herself Trixie. Well, probably he can go very far wrong but he will at least enjoy the ride.
I think you have been away from these shores for too long though when you talk about the Lord Mayor of Westminster. No such post exists, there is only one Lord Mayor in London and he/she is the Lord Mayor of London (and it ain't that Khan bloke).
But I am not wrong, as there used to be such a post - "He was the first Australian to be the Lord Mayor of Westminster."
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
Alistair, you're doing yourself no favours. Your attitude is why so many of our countryfolk despite the people of the metropolis.
London without England would be cut adrift, diminished and ultimately irrelevant.
Victim blaming, I see
The arrogance with which the country mice expect Londoners to subsidise their hobby horses is breathtaking.
London will only go independent when NYC, Paris, Tokyo etc do too. While London did vote Remain 5 boroughs voted Leave and plenty of wealthier parts of the country outside London voted Remain
Christ on a bike is Meeks still crying about this! 40% of Londoners voted to leave for heaven sakes.
Seems so
I used to respect antifrank, but this Meeks fellow is both arrogant (anyone who does not share his viewpoint on Europe is uncivilized) and hysterical - a very unattractive combination - and anti-democratic on top of all that. Perhaps he'd feel happier if only the landed gentry had the vote.
Probably, government by the enlightened and all that!
Nothing wrong with thinking that full-franchise democracy may not be the most optimal system of government. There are many cogent arguments going back over centuries that would suggest it is not, quite apart from what we have been living through for the past 80 years or so.
However, to suggest that only the people that vote for a policy should have to pay for it, that people who are in the minority should be allowed to opt out and all the other, frankly, deranged stuff, that has been put forward on here by some recently, suggests that some people are in need of help.
I'm more concerned about representation without taxation.
There are huge issues with taking people out of the primary income tax - most people don't realise they are paying VAT etc - as it distorts decision making at elections
Pro-Brexit staff are suing their employers for "cultural bullying" from their morally superior pro-Remain colleagues, according to the Daily Telegraph They are drawing on a "philosophical beliefs" protection provided by a directive from the otherwise hateful EU.
Some people get emotional about the EU - on both sides. It's a puzzle to me. It's just an institution. I generally vote Tory, but Labour and the Lib Dems have some good ideas. For example, I was wrong about the minimum wage - it's not perfect but overall is probably a net public good. The EU has done useful work and often means well. It's neither an unalloyed good or an evil empire.
The emotion is strange, I agree. However, the EU will be the central political issue for Britain over the next ten years, and not in a helpful way. In my view.
Oddly, you're probably the poster who I feel is most aligned to my own outlook on here, though we voted differently. You have that air of emotional detachment.
On the emotional/philosophical arguments I think Leave and Remain each had one good argument. Be master of your own ship (Leave); it's good to be connected (Remain). I guess they balance each other out. So it comes down to practicalities. My opinion is very firm that Britain's interests are best served by remaining in the EU - Partly because we are already in. It's not an equivalence. Change means disruption so the alternative has to be enough better that it's worth the grief. Partly because I think it is better for us to be in anyway. Partly because the way we went about Brexit was dumb - we voted to leave without considering the alternatives. It turns out that all the alternatives are problematic in different ways. We have choices but the only choice that has definitively been ruled out is probably the best one.
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues
Disagree. Leave won in large part because the referendum was about immigration. Remain had no answer.
I don't think we disagree. I was talking about my own opinions on Brexit, which I admit is an indulgence on PB. In general I would say Leave tapped into real grievances about globalisation, however dishonestly, while Remain were very condescending towards people who felt there was a problem, even if they were probably correct
Croatian and Kiwi in the rowing are a deadheat on times to hundredths of a second. Kiwi wins it on photo by tiniest of margins - thousandths of a second....
Disagree. Leave won in large part because the referendum was about immigration. Remain had no answer.
I think that is true, Mr. Observer, and indeed said so on here on the run up to the vote when leave still had double digit polling leads. However, it is not the whole truth. Perhaps the reason Leave won was a combination of those worried about "importing" (I know you don't like the term in this context, but let it go for now, eh?) the equivalent of the city of Cardiff every year and those who felt that the UK should be governed by the people of the UK elect.
Now, one might argue that most of the people who voted did not understand the actual issues in question but then they equally do not at every general election.
OT I think Trump has broken the coalition that has made up the Republican Party since Reagan and Gary Johnson is part of the new direction that will arise from the ashes of the Trump attempt on the White House. Reagan brought social conservatives together with business interests and fiscal conservatives. Neither Trump nor Johnson has any time for social conservatives and they will be the big losers. While I don't expect corporate interests to disappear, there are no votes in being seen to support the lobby. I expect Republicans to make their pitches on competence, devolution (States' rights) and getting Big Government out of people's lives
If as is likely Trump loses, Cruz may well be nominee in 2020, a protectionist, nationalist followed by a staunch social conservative
Cruz is really disliked, the only reason he git close this time is the last gasp effort to unite around a single non Trump candidate. Ryan stands a good chance.
Euronationalism is indeed predicated, in part, as a push back against a world where European countries seem less and less important. From being the centre of the world in 1900 to what they have today.
I would characterise it as a resolve to undo the damage of the suicidal decades of the first half of the 20th century. It's less a push back against an outside world on the rise, than a determination to rebuild and ensure that Europe remains the centre of European civilisation.
Its not entirely surprising that the Euro elite are a bit wary of democracies after what the weak post WW1 democracies turned into in the 1920s and 30s.
The problem is that the euro elite has become very 'high' and is becoming an aristocracy in its views and thought processes
Croatian and Kiwi in the rowing are a deadheat on times to hundredths of a second. Kiwi wins it on photo by tiniest of margins - thousandths of a second....
I thought he just edged it when I saw it the first time, and was surprised they initially called it a dead-heat.
Pro-Brexit staff are suing their employers for "cultural bullying" from their morally superior pro-Remain colleagues, according to the Daily Telegraph They are drawing on a "philosophical beliefs" protection provided by a directive from the otherwise hateful EU.
Some people get emotional about the EU - on both sides. It's a puzzle to me. It's just an institution. I generally vote Tory, but Labour and the Lib Dems have some good ideas. For example, I was wrong about the minimum wage - it's not perfect but overall is probably a net public good. The EU has done useful work and often means well. It's neither an unalloyed good or an evil empire.
The emotion is strange, I agree. However, the EU will be the central political issue for Britain over the next ten years, and not in a helpful way. In my view.
Oddly, you're probably the poster who I feel is most aligned to my own outlook on here, though we voted differently. You have that air of emotional detachment.
On the emotional/philosophical arguments I think Leave and Remain each had one good argument. Be master of your own ship (Leave); it's good to be connected (Remain). I guess they balance each other out. So it comes down to practicalities. My opinion is very firm that Britain's interests are best served by remaining in the EU - Partly because we are already in. It's not an equivalence. Change means disruption so the alternative has to be enough better that it's worth the grief. Partly because I think it is better for us to be in anyway. Partly because the way we went about Brexit was dumb - we voted to leave without considering the alternatives. It turns out that all the alternatives are problematic in different ways. We have choices but the only choice that has definitively been ruled out is probably the best one.
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues
Disagree. Leave won in large part because the referendum was about immigration. Remain had no answer.
I don't think we disagree. I was talking about my own opinions on Brexit, which I admit is an indulgence on PB. In general I would say Leave tapped into real grievances about globalisation, however dishonestly, while Remain were very condescending towards people who felt there was a problem, even if they were probably correct
Croatian and Kiwi in the rowing are a deadheat on times to hundredths of a second. Kiwi wins it on photo by tiniest of margins - thousandths of a second....
Disagree. Leave won in large part because the referendum was about immigration. Remain had no answer.
I don't think we disagree. I was talking about my own opinions on Brexit, which I admit is an indulgence on PB. In general I would say Leave tapped into real grievances about globalisation, however dishonestly, while Remain were very condescending towards people who felt there was a problem, even if they were probably correct
What the heck do you do when the most powerful print media present any disagreement as "condescension"?
People whipped themselves up into a belief that intolerant elites were calling them racist, even though there was no evidence for it. What it reveals about their innermost thoughts, I don't know.
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
Can you provide some links to denials by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms (I suspect you mean identities, but whatevs), and denials that UK nationalism can exist by 'the more extreme Nats'?
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.
Croatian and Kiwi in the rowing are a deadheat on times to hundredths of a second. Kiwi wins it on photo by tiniest of margins - thousandths of a second....
The discus guys are YUGE!
The Gold medallist from the London Olympics is not that yuge, only 3” taller than his wife...
Euronationalism is indeed predicated, in part, as a push back against a world where European countries seem less and less important. From being the centre of the world in 1900 to what they have today.
I would characterise it as a resolve to undo the damage of the suicidal decades of the first half of the 20th century. It's less a push back against an outside world on the rise, than a determination to rebuild and ensure that Europe remains the centre of European civilisation.
Its not entirely surprising that the Euro elite are a bit wary of democracies after what the weak post WW1 democracies turned into in the 1920s and 30s.
The problem is that the euro elite has become very 'high' and is becoming an aristocracy in its views and thought processes
On the contrary, the EU is thoroughly democratic and democracy is seen as both a prerequisite of EU membership and a bulwark against authoritarianism (the latter is in question nowadays). Power is distributed among separate governmental and inter-governmental bodies to a much greater extent than in the UK, and at all levels the leaders are chosen by the people or their representatives, just as HM Government is chosen by the people's representatives.
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
Can you provide some links to denials by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms (I suspect you mean identities, but whatevs), and denials that UK nationalism can exist by 'the more extreme Nats'?
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.
That nationalism guide in full: European nationalism = perverted elitist scum English and British nationalism = brave, heroic freedom fighters on behalf of the world's most historically-oppressed but also world-beating race Scottish nationalism = dumb Jocks
Disagree. Leave won in large part because the referendum was about immigration. Remain had no answer.
I don't think we disagree. I was talking about my own opinions on Brexit, which I admit is an indulgence on PB. In general I would say Leave tapped into real grievances about globalisation, however dishonestly, while Remain were very condescending towards people who felt there was a problem, even if they were probably correct
What the heck do you do when the most powerful print media present any disagreement as "condescension"?
People whipped themselves up into a belief that intolerant elites were calling them racist, even though there was no evidence for it. What it reveals about their innermost thoughts, I don't know.
Now, one might argue that most of the people who voted did not understand the actual issues in question but then they equally do not at every general election.
And that critique applies equally to people on both sides of any voting divide.
I don't think we disagree. I was talking about my own opinions on Brexit, which I admit is an indulgence on PB. In general I would say Leave tapped into real grievances about globalisation, however dishonestly, while Remain were very condescending towards people who felt there was a problem, even if they were probably correct
I think a lot of the more extreme reaction stems from the fact that that the government used EU membership to force an entire (small l liberal) agenda on the UK that they would never have got through parliament normally but were able to wave it through with statutory orders on the grounds that EU membership makes it compulsory.
I think it is the fear that this will be unravelled that drives the emotional response
One of the most far reaching I recall was the ECHR or ECJ (can't remember which) setting aside the £11,000 maximium industrial payment in harassment and discrimination, soon afterwards tribunals started awarding lottery sums to people who were victims of politically incorrect actions.
That caused absolute panic among companies who started writing diversity and equality policies and rules in all directions and gave a massive boost to the whole PC diversity and equality agenda.
This might well be unravelled with say a £25,000 maximum payout on such cases in tribunals at which point companies will ditch their equality policies - or serious observation of them. - Not having to do police their employees speech and actions so much and being able to just hire who they feel like without reams of paperwork demonstrating they have been objective will save particularly small companies a fortune.
I suspect this is what is keeping remainers awake at night.
Euronationalism is indeed predicated, in part, as a push back against a world where European countries seem less and less important. From being the centre of the world in 1900 to what they have today.
I would characterise it as a resolve to undo the damage of the suicidal decades of the first half of the 20th century. It's less a push back against an outside world on the rise, than a determination to rebuild and ensure that Europe remains the centre of European civilisation.
Its not entirely surprising that the Euro elite are a bit wary of democracies after what the weak post WW1 democracies turned into in the 1920s and 30s.
The problem is that the euro elite has become very 'high' and is becoming an aristocracy in its views and thought processes
On the contrary, the EU is thoroughly democratic and democracy is seen as both a prerequisite of EU membership and a bulwark against authoritarianism (the latter is in question nowadays). Power is distributed among separate governmental and inter-governmental bodies to a much greater extent than in the UK, and at all levels the leaders are chosen by the people or their representatives, just as HM Government is chosen by the people's representatives.
Lol.
Requiring subject governments to be democratic is not the same as being democratic yourself.
Wasn't it that ardent Europhile Chris 'Fat Pang' Patten who described the European Commission as as democratic as North Korea?
I don't think we disagree. I was talking about my own opinions on Brexit, which I admit is an indulgence on PB. In general I would say Leave tapped into real grievances about globalisation, however dishonestly, while Remain were very condescending towards people who felt there was a problem, even if they were probably correct
I think a lot of the more extreme reaction stems from the fact that that the government used EU membership to force an entire (small l liberal) agenda on the UK that they would never have got through parliament normally but were able to wave it through with statutory orders on the grounds that EU membership makes it compulsory.
I think it is the fear that this will be unravelled that drives the emotional response
One of the most far reaching I recall was the ECHR or ECJ (can't remember which) setting aside the £11,000 maximium industrial payment in harassment and discrimination, soon afterwards tribunals started awarding lottery sums to people who were victims of politically incorrect actions.
That caused absolute panic among companies who started writing diversity and equality policies and rules in all directions and gave a massive boost to the whole PC diversity and equality agenda.
This might well be unravelled with say a £25,000 maximum payout on such cases in tribunals at which point companies will ditch their equality policies - or serious observation of them. - Not having to do police their employees speech and actions so much and being able to just hire who they feel like without reams of paperwork demonstrating they have been objective will save particularly small companies a fortune.
I suspect this is what is keeping remainers awake at night.
So we can go back to the 1970s? Sounds great. I'm so looking forward to the great leap backwards of the next 20 years.
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
Can you provide some links to denials by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms (I suspect you mean identities, but whatevs), and denials that UK nationalism can exist by 'the more extreme Nats'?
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.
That nationalism guide in full: European nationalism = perverted elitist scum English and British nationalism = brave, heroic freedom fighters on behalf of the world's most historically-oppressed but also world-beating race Scottish nationalism = dumb Jocks
Before long you'll be arguing for a unified EU Olympics team!
Serious stuff. "He and Mr Farage spent three days at the Republican Convention, where they had a packed schedule of television appearances and meetings with US senators as well as discussions with aides to presidential candidate Donald Trump.
So far, Maryland has 11 Golds and 4 Silvers at Rio. Helps to have both Phelps and Ledecki on your team (each 4 Golds and 1 Silver).
For the curious, the other MD medal winners are Jack Conger, Cierra Runge (a gold a piece), Alison Schmidt (Gold and Silver), and Chase Kalisz (Silver). All swimmers.
Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Durant also played high school basketball in MD. So at least one more medal there.
I don't think we disagree. I was talking about my own opinions on Brexit, which I admit is an indulgence on PB. In general I would say Leave tapped into real grievances about globalisation, however dishonestly, while Remain were very condescending towards people who felt there was a problem, even if they were probably correct
I think a lot of the more extreme reaction stems from the fact that that the government used EU membership to force an entire (small l liberal) agenda on the UK that they would never have got through parliament normally but were able to wave it through with statutory orders on the grounds that EU membership makes it compulsory.
I think it is the fear that this will be unravelled that drives the emotional response
One of the most far reaching I recall was the ECHR or ECJ (can't remember which) setting aside the £11,000 maximium industrial payment in harassment and discrimination, soon afterwards tribunals started awarding lottery sums to people who were victims of politically incorrect actions.
That caused absolute panic among companies who started writing diversity and equality policies and rules in all directions and gave a massive boost to the whole PC diversity and equality agenda.
This might well be unravelled with say a £25,000 maximum payout on such cases in tribunals at which point companies will ditch their equality policies - or serious observation of them. - Not having to do police their employees speech and actions so much and being able to just hire who they feel like without reams of paperwork demonstrating they have been objective will save particularly small companies a fortune.
I suspect this is what is keeping remainers awake at night.
I don't have access to telepathy so I cannot confirm or deny your assessment of people's internal state.
So far, Maryland has 11 Golds and 4 Silvers at Rio. Helps to have both Phelps and Ledecki on your team (each 4 Golds and 1 Silver).
For the curious, the other MD medal winners are Jack Conger, Cierra Runge (a gold a piece), Alison Schmidt (Gold and Silver), and Chase Kalisz (Silver). All swimmers.
Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Durant also played high school basketball in MD. So at least one more medal there.
Ledecki is amazing - saw her this morning, just miles ahead and effortless.
Fact check: is this even slightly true? I know that the UK is nowhere near food sufficiency and hasn't been for decades (centuries?). It never occurred to me to add RoI to things, simply because it's a different country. But even given that, I doubt this. Ireland hasn't got the climate to grow large-enough quantities of wheat or corn, and as for fruit production (grape, bananas, oranges, peaches. etc) it's pretty much a non-starter in terms of bulk production. I'm willing to believe it produces beef, lamb, anything that can be produced by herding grazing animals that don't mind rain. But again, I can't see it producing nearly enough to feed the ~65million population of the UK as well as itself.
(PS Paul_Bedfordshire, I need to point out that I'm not picking on you with this post: it's just that the claim is so contra-intuitive it triggered my factcheck gene)
Fact check: is this even slightly true? I know that the UK is nowhere near food sufficiency and hasn't been for decades (centuries?). It never occurred to me to add RoI to things, simply because it's a different country. But even given that, I doubt this. Ireland hasn't got the climate to grow large quantities of wheat or corn, and as for fruit production (grape, bananas, oranges, peaches. etc) it's pretty much a non-starter in terms of bulk production. I'm willing to believe it produces beef, lamb, anything that can be produced by herding grazing animals that don't mind rain. But again, I can't see it producing nearly enough to feed the ~65million population of the UK as well as itself.
(PS Paul_Bedfordshire, I need to point out that I'm not picking on you with this post: it's just that the claim is so contra-intuitive it triggered my factcheck gene)
76% in home-grown foods according DEFRA in March 2016.
Fact check: is this even slightly true? I know that the UK is nowhere near food sufficiency and hasn't been for decades (centuries?). It never occurred to me to add RoI to things, simply because it's a different country. But even given that, I doubt this. Ireland hasn't got the climate to grow large quantities of wheat or corn, and as for fruit production (grape, bananas, oranges, peaches. etc) it's pretty much a non-starter in terms of bulk production. I'm willing to believe it produces beef, lamb, anything that can be produced by herding grazing animals that don't mind rain. But again, I can't see it producing nearly enough to feed the ~65million population of the UK as well as itself.
(PS Paul_Bedfordshire, I need to point out that I'm not picking on you with this post: it's just that the claim is so contra-intuitive it triggered my factcheck gene)
76% in home-grown foods according DEFRA in March 2016.
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
Can you provide some links to denials by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms (I suspect you mean identities, but whatevs), and denials that UK nationalism can exist by 'the more extreme Nats'?
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.
If you follow Orwell's ideas on Nationalism, it is perfectly possible to have nationalistic feelings towards a number of tiers of geography and ideology. Hence people who have such feelings towards part of a city, city, region, nation etc...
Without wishing to start fights, the denial of UK nationalism has occurred on PB. A couple of the hardcore nationalists in my own family have expressed such views. To them the idea of divided national identity is so repellent that they can't conceive the idea. Pointing out their.... feelings towards Glasgow vs Edinburgh makes things worse, strangely.
I am not being negative about other people's Nationalisms. Pretty much everyone has them, and attacking them is about as sensible as attacking other people's religious choices.
It is a good idea to recognise they exist though. To many people, it's a bit of an irregular verb:
"I am sensible in the feature of my society that I like" "You are a nationalist" "He is fascist scum"
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
Can you provide some links to denials by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms (I suspect you mean identities, but whatevs), and denials that UK nationalism can exist by 'the more extreme Nats'?
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.
That nationalism guide in full: European nationalism = perverted elitist scum English and British nationalism = brave, heroic freedom fighters on behalf of the world's most historically-oppressed but also world-beating race Scottish nationalism = dumb Jocks
Lol.
'We are now going to demonstrate our national ascendancy through the medium of dressage.'*
Money for next year should be sound but they also need top chaps to improve their car. This will limit their points potential (I'm thinking of dipping my toe into spread betting next year, so will be paying closer attention to this sort of thing).
On that note, of the four suggestions for spread betting I made in my mid-season piece, three have nudged in a positive direction, one is unchanged [or went out and came back in].
Fact check: is this even slightly true? I know that the UK is nowhere near food sufficiency and hasn't been for decades (centuries?). It never occurred to me to add RoI to things, simply because it's a different country. But even given that, I doubt this. Ireland hasn't got the climate to grow large-enough quantities of wheat or corn, and as for fruit production (grape, bananas, oranges, peaches. etc) it's pretty much a non-starter in terms of bulk production. I'm willing to believe it produces beef, lamb, anything that can be produced by herding grazing animals that don't mind rain. But again, I can't see it producing nearly enough to feed the ~65million population of the UK as well as itself.
(PS Paul_Bedfordshire, I need to point out that I'm not picking on you with this post: it's just that the claim is so contra-intuitive it triggered my factcheck gene)
It seems it could but you wouldn't want it to have to:
' In December 1939 Elsie Widdowson and Robert McCance of the University of Cambridge tested whether the United Kingdom could survive with only domestic food production if U-boats ended all imports. Using 1938 food-production data, they fed themselves and other volunteers one egg, one pound of meat, and four ounces of fish a week; one quarter pint of milk a day; four ounces of margarine; and unlimited amounts of potatoes, vegetables, and wholemeal bread. Two weeks of intensive outdoor exercise simulated the strenuous wartime physical work Britons would likely have to perform. The scientists found that the subjects' health and performance remained very good after three months, with the only negative results being the increased time needed for meals to consume the necessary calories from bread and potatoes, and what they described as a “remarkable” increase in flatulence from the high amount of starch in the diet. The scientists also noted that their faeces had increased by 250% in volume. '
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
Can you provide some links to denials by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms (I suspect you mean identities, but whatevs), and denials that UK nationalism can exist by 'the more extreme Nats'?
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.
That nationalism guide in full: European nationalism = perverted elitist scum English and British nationalism = brave, heroic freedom fighters on behalf of the world's most historically-oppressed but also world-beating race Scottish nationalism = dumb Jocks
Before long you'll be arguing for a unified EU Olympics team!
TUD above has written down the views of an un-reconstructed UK nationalist.
My point is that the Euronationalists and the Scottish nationalists would simply move the definitions on the right hand side around a bit.
Fact check: is this even slightly true? I know that the UK is nowhere near food sufficiency and hasn't been for decades (centuries?). It never occurred to me to add RoI to things, simply because it's a different country. But even given that, I doubt this. Ireland hasn't got the climate to grow large quantities of wheat or corn, and as for fruit production (grape, bananas, oranges, peaches. etc) it's pretty much a non-starter in terms of bulk production. I'm willing to believe it produces beef, lamb, anything that can be produced by herding grazing animals that don't mind rain. But again, I can't see it producing nearly enough to feed the ~65million population of the UK as well as itself.
(PS Paul_Bedfordshire, I need to point out that I'm not picking on you with this post: it's just that the claim is so contra-intuitive it triggered my factcheck gene)
76% in home-grown foods according DEFRA in March 2016.
I remember back in the early 80s being astonished to find out that the UK produced more grain than the Ukraine.
It probably still does.
Anyway I see Trump's self destructing behaviour continues.
While Hillary is saying to her supporters to go and vote, Trump is screaming "It's rigged!!" so his supporters won't even bother to vote, since "it's rigged!!!" anyway.
Just seen some of your posts on Twitter regarding labeling of meat.
This row needs to be simply addressed. Proper food labeling. You want your animals slaughtered halal/kosher style, fine it will be labelled as that. You want to take in meat from overseas and process it in the UK, fine it will be labelled as that - not as British when the wretched animal never drew breath over here.
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
Can you provide some links to denials by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms (I suspect you mean identities, but whatevs), and denials that UK nationalism can exist by 'the more extreme Nats'?
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.
That nationalism guide in full: European nationalism = perverted elitist scum English and British nationalism = brave, heroic freedom fighters on behalf of the world's most historically-oppressed but also world-beating race Scottish nationalism = dumb Jocks
Lol.
'We are now going to demonstrate our national ascendancy through the medium of dressage.'*
Just seen some of your posts on Twitter regarding labeling of meat.
This row needs to be simply addressed. Proper food labeling. You want your animals slaughtered halal/kosher style, fine it will be labelled as that. You want to take in meat from overseas and process it in the UK, fine it will be labelled as that - not as British when the wretched animal never drew breath over here.
It's a scandal that it's not being robustly addressed - more cultural cringing.
I think Redgrave & inverdale will be glad the punting is over!
I admire Redgraves achievements, but he's always been a total miserable git. I have no interest in seeing him present anything. Inverdale makes me smile and enjoy something. Redgrave implies I ought to be up before dawn and wearing sackcloth to really appreciate it.
Fact check: is this even slightly true? I know that the UK is nowhere near food sufficiency and hasn't been for decades (centuries?). It never occurred to me to add RoI to things, simply because it's a different country. But even given that, I doubt this. Ireland hasn't got the climate to grow large-enough quantities of wheat or corn, and as for fruit production (grape, bananas, oranges, peaches. etc) it's pretty much a non-starter in terms of bulk production. I'm willing to believe it produces beef, lamb, anything that can be produced by herding grazing animals that don't mind rain. But again, I can't see it producing nearly enough to feed the ~65million population of the UK as well as itself.
(PS Paul_Bedfordshire, I need to point out that I'm not picking on you with this post: it's just that the claim is so contra-intuitive it triggered my factcheck gene)
It seems it could but you wouldn't want it to have to:
' In December 1939 Elsie Widdowson and Robert McCance of the University of Cambridge tested whether the United Kingdom could survive with only domestic food production if U-boats ended all imports. Using 1938 food-production data, they fed themselves and other volunteers one egg, one pound of meat, and four ounces of fish a week; one quarter pint of milk a day; four ounces of margarine; and unlimited amounts of potatoes, vegetables, and wholemeal bread. Two weeks of intensive outdoor exercise simulated the strenuous wartime physical work Britons would likely have to perform. The scientists found that the subjects' health and performance remained very good after three months, with the only negative results being the increased time needed for meals to consume the necessary calories from bread and potatoes, and what they described as a “remarkable” increase in flatulence from the high amount of starch in the diet. The scientists also noted that their faeces had increased by 250% in volume. '
The UK pop'n in 1939 was ~48million: it's ~64million now. But then again, food production efficiency has increased drastically since then, so it's probably still doable. So the UK could actually be self-sufficient in food if it stuck to fish, eggs, meat, milk, veg, spuds and bread. While I can't help thinking that that's rather an admirable diet, it would probably have to be imposed rather than chosen ("DEATH TO BANANA-EATERS!" "HEY, YOU! YES, YOU WITH THE ORANGE! HALT, OR I FIRE!").
'Redgrave implies I ought to be up before dawn and wearing sackcloth to really appreciate it.'
Looking at the coverage, I am wondering if there is a mental health issue there. Titanic olympian, used to the cut and thrust of competition, at a bit of a loose end these days...
Comments
During my FCO days, I had dealings with an Australian Lady Gardner, who was the British representative on the UN Commission on the Status of Women.
Full title Baroness Trixie Gardner of Parkes. I think her husband was Lord Mayor of Westminster.
I think you have been away from these shores for too long though when you talk about the Lord Mayor of Westminster. No such post exists, there is only one Lord Mayor in London and he/she is the Lord Mayor of London (and it ain't that Khan bloke).
See under family, Kevin Gardner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trixie_Gardner,_Baroness_Gardner_of_Parkes
Finally as a Scot who has been through all this before with Indyref, I have run out of emotion for Brexit. The philosophical arguments are identical, as are the practical issues
How is one expected to keep the thread tidy if this keeps happening I ask you?
However, to suggest that only the people that vote for a policy should have to pay for it, that people who are in the minority should be allowed to opt out and all the other, frankly, deranged stuff, that has been put forward on here by some recently, suggests that some people are in need of help.
It was clear from many of the vox pops that some people believed that the EU's free movement policy applied to anyone from anywhere in the world.
I fear he'd find the landed gentry voted to Leave!
Scottish "No" voters are (if they are nationalists) UK Nationalists first - the denial by Scottish Nationalists that someone can have multiple nationalisms is an interesting aspect of nationalism. The denial that UK nationalism can exist by the more extreme Nats is just as illuminating.
Euronationalism is indeed predicated, in part, as a push back against a world where European countries seem less and less important. From being the centre of the world in 1900 to what they have today.
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/753297194979950593
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/753297788134359040
'Another extraordinary thread of comments from Mr Meeks. I am getting really cheesed off with this though as no sooner do I pick up the toys thrown out of the pram and sterilise the spat out dummy it starts all over again.'
Agree at 60 or so he should be past his childhood tantrums.
There are huge issues with taking people out of the primary income tax - most people don't realise they are paying VAT etc - as it distorts decision making at elections
Now, one might argue that most of the people who voted did not understand the actual issues in question but then they equally do not at every general election.
The problem is that the euro elite has become very 'high' and is becoming an aristocracy in its views and thought processes
People whipped themselves up into a belief that intolerant elites were calling them racist, even though there was no evidence for it. What it reveals about their innermost thoughts, I don't know.
In the latter case all I can recall is pointing out the existence of UK nationalism (Britnats anyone?) and receiving repetitive denials from UK Nats that their nationalism is any such thing, rather a purer, higher minded patriotism that we brutish Nats are unable to appreciate.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/13/nigel-farages-aide-arrested-as-fbi-probe-links-to-money-launderi/
European nationalism = perverted elitist scum
English and British nationalism = brave, heroic freedom fighters on behalf of the world's most historically-oppressed but also world-beating race
Scottish nationalism = dumb Jocks
"Scent of an unwashed Woman #FeministAMovie"
I think it is the fear that this will be unravelled that drives the emotional response
One of the most far reaching I recall was the ECHR or ECJ (can't remember which) setting aside the £11,000 maximium industrial payment in harassment and discrimination, soon afterwards tribunals started awarding lottery sums to people who were victims of politically incorrect actions.
That caused absolute panic among companies who started writing diversity and equality policies and rules in all directions and gave a massive boost to the whole PC diversity and equality agenda.
This might well be unravelled with say a £25,000 maximum payout on such cases in tribunals at which point companies will ditch their equality policies - or serious observation of them. - Not having to do police their employees speech and actions so much and being able to just hire who they feel like without reams of paperwork demonstrating they have been objective will save particularly small companies a fortune.
I suspect this is what is keeping remainers awake at night.
Silver! First for us.
Requiring subject governments to be democratic is not the same as being democratic yourself.
Wasn't it that ardent Europhile Chris 'Fat Pang' Patten who described the European Commission as as democratic as North Korea?
"Cottrell, who is thought to be worth around £250million"
REMAIN 48%
Suck it up, EPG
"He and Mr Farage spent three days at the Republican Convention, where they had a packed schedule of television appearances and meetings with US senators as well as discussions with aides to presidential candidate Donald Trump.
It now appears that Cottrell was being watched by FBI officers throughout the trip."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3737641/Farage-aide-held-money-laundering-claims-Son-glamour-model-dated-Prince-Charles-facing-years-jail-offering-services-dark-web.html
For the curious, the other MD medal winners are Jack Conger, Cierra Runge (a gold a piece), Alison Schmidt (Gold and Silver), and Chase Kalisz (Silver). All swimmers.
Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Durant also played high school basketball in MD. So at least one more medal there.
(PS Paul_Bedfordshire, I need to point out that I'm not picking on you with this post: it's just that the claim is so contra-intuitive it triggered my factcheck gene)
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515048/food-farming-stats-release-07apr16.pdf
Glorious weather in Rio, packed out stands and both eights in the medals, - it doesn’t get any better than this.
Without wishing to start fights, the denial of UK nationalism has occurred on PB. A couple of the hardcore nationalists in my own family have expressed such views. To them the idea of divided national identity is so repellent that they can't conceive the idea. Pointing out their.... feelings towards Glasgow vs Edinburgh makes things worse, strangely.
I am not being negative about other people's Nationalisms. Pretty much everyone has them, and attacking them is about as sensible as attacking other people's religious choices.
It is a good idea to recognise they exist though. To many people, it's a bit of an irregular verb:
"I am sensible in the feature of my society that I like"
"You are a nationalist"
"He is fascist scum"
'We are now going to demonstrate our national ascendancy through the medium of dressage.'*
*The Germans don't really count as they're pretendy Anglo Saxons obviously.
F1 gossip: Renault reportedly struggling to recruit:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/37008344
Money for next year should be sound but they also need top chaps to improve their car. This will limit their points potential (I'm thinking of dipping my toe into spread betting next year, so will be paying closer attention to this sort of thing).
On that note, of the four suggestions for spread betting I made in my mid-season piece, three have nudged in a positive direction, one is unchanged [or went out and came back in].
' In December 1939 Elsie Widdowson and Robert McCance of the University of Cambridge tested whether the United Kingdom could survive with only domestic food production if U-boats ended all imports. Using 1938 food-production data, they fed themselves and other volunteers one egg, one pound of meat, and four ounces of fish a week; one quarter pint of milk a day; four ounces of margarine; and unlimited amounts of potatoes, vegetables, and wholemeal bread. Two weeks of intensive outdoor exercise simulated the strenuous wartime physical work Britons would likely have to perform. The scientists found that the subjects' health and performance remained very good after three months, with the only negative results being the increased time needed for meals to consume the necessary calories from bread and potatoes, and what they described as a “remarkable” increase in flatulence from the high amount of starch in the diet. The scientists also noted that their faeces had increased by 250% in volume. '
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationing_in_the_United_Kingdom
My point is that the Euronationalists and the Scottish nationalists would simply move the definitions on the right hand side around a bit.
Anyway I see Trump's self destructing behaviour continues.
While Hillary is saying to her supporters to go and vote, Trump is screaming "It's rigged!!" so his supporters won't even bother to vote, since "it's rigged!!!" anyway.
WR!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just seen some of your posts on Twitter regarding labeling of meat.
This row needs to be simply addressed. Proper food labeling. You want your animals slaughtered halal/kosher style, fine it will be labelled as that. You want to take in meat from overseas and process it in the UK, fine it will be labelled as that - not as British when the wretched animal never drew breath over here.
It was never in doubt
Looking at the coverage, I am wondering if there is a mental health issue there. Titanic olympian, used to the cut and thrust of competition, at a bit of a loose end these days...
And the discus is ace!