Mr. Meeks, you're upset that London is a big net contributor to the UK but perfectly content that the UK was a big net contributor to the EU?
London is a far bigger net contributor to the rest of the UK than Britain is to the rest of the EU. It sees far less back from this expenditure also.
London gets lots of institutions of government, transport links, high levels of public spending, commuters, food, water, power, and Bank of England backing for the City. It doesn't do badly out of the present settlement.
London sucks the country dry of talent.
It's the only place I can live. I'm epileptic, so the DVLA took my licence away.
Yes, there are no epileptics outside of London.
It is easier in London to live without a car though. Indeed it is a burden in most parts.
I'm not seeking to halt or delay the outcome. I set out a route map for Remainers last week for engagement.
Oddly, all the Leavers focused on one minor detail in that proposal. It seems that Leavers were extremely happy to leave the EU, so long as they didn't have to pay any part of the costs entailed in that.
As we are seeing again this morning, where the Leavers are trying to sting London for the bill.
Alistair, how long would you last without the water supplies from the rest of the country? Or the food we grow? Or the electricity we generate and send to you? Or farmers taking the processed residue of the sewage of London's sewers to be spread on their land?
Bluntly, I don't like London much - it's an expensive dump - but I think you will find if you look at the externalities rather than just the headline figure your case is a lot less clear cut. I don't object to that because it's part of being one country. I do object to London thinking it is all a question of money. It makes me wonder just how divorced from reality you all are.
Yes, this argument can also be made to a lesser extent for Scotland and Wales - with Wales, remember 10%+ of England's population gets its water from reservoirs in Wales.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
I'd be genuinely sad if London left
London needs a new settlement. The rest of the UK cannot expect to keep fleecing it and simultaneously holding its opinions in contempt. One or both will need to give sooner or later.
Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier for all concerned if you just sold up and moved to Brussels. I mean it would save years of red tape and legal fees for the entire country, think of the benefits and the children.
You could probably negotiate a good package to be fair given potential overall CAPEX savings and Eurostar and Easyjet tickets are quite competitive at the moment
I'm not sure it would be particularly convenient for Leavers if all those who supported Remain were to decamp to another country. Who would pay for their lifestyles?
The country would do just fine. And house prices would be cheaper
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
Yea!!!
London could then have its own version of the Hunger Games to replace the olympics.
"The Hunger Games universe is a dystopia set in Panem England, a country consisting of the wealthy Capitol and 12 districts in varying states of poverty. Every year, children from the districts are selected to participate in a compulsory annual televised death match called The Hunger Games."
Mr Meeks could adjudicate as the Lord High Master of the games. I mean just think of the sponsorship and TV deals that could be done.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
I'd be genuinely sad if London left
London needs a new settlement. The rest of the UK cannot expect to keep fleecing it and simultaneously holding its opinions in contempt. One or both will need to give sooner or later.
What do you define as London and Londoners? Do I, as someone on 30k working in Central London, but living in Woking (and paying 3k for the privilege to do the commute), count as a Londoner? Should I get to vote in the London Mayoral election?
FWIW, I was chatting to Andy Hornby (of HBOS infamy) about house prices a few years ago - he used the example of someone on £30K but forced to live in Woking & commute to Central London because of house prices as his archetype of why the economy was f****d
Mr "mending the roof while the sun is shining" Hornby?
Didn't know he said that!
But he did move from running a bank to managing a casino...
Went from using your watch to tell you the time to mixing concrete to running a corner shop to a bank to pushing drugs to a casino with a few other jobs.......
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
I'd be genuinely sad if London left
London needs a new settlement. The rest of the UK cannot expect to keep fleecing it and simultaneously holding its opinions in contempt. One or both will need to give sooner or later.
Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier for all concerned if you just sold up and moved to Brussels. I mean it would save years of red tape and legal fees for the entire country, think of the benefits and the children.
You could probably negotiate a good package to be fair given potential overall CAPEX savings and Eurostar and Easyjet tickets are quite competitive at the moment
I'm not sure it would be particularly convenient for Leavers if all those who supported Remain were to decamp to another country. Who would pay for their lifestyles?
Just catching up with the ginger flier just making the long jump qualification.
I was looking through the distances required to win medals in this event and basically for 40 years (excluding the one at attitude) it is always within a very similar range. Most events if you said I can do the time / distance of 40 years ago, that probably isn't not even be good enough for the final these days.
I wonder what it is about the likes of long jump that means human performance hasn't improved.
I'm not seeking to halt or delay the outcome. I set out a route map for Remainers last week for engagement.
Oddly, all the Leavers focused on one minor detail in that proposal. It seems that Leavers were extremely happy to leave the EU, so long as they didn't have to pay any part of the costs entailed in that.
As we are seeing again this morning, where the Leavers are trying to sting London for the bill.
Alistair, how long would you last without the water supplies from the rest of the country? Or the food we grow? Or the electricity we generate and send to you? Or farmers taking the processed residue of the sewage of London's sewers to be spread on their land?
Bluntly, I don't like London much - it's an expensive dump - but I think you will find if you look at the externalities rather than just the headline figure your case is a lot less clear cut. I don't object to that because it's part of being one country. I do object to London thinking it is all a question of money. It makes me wonder just how divorced from reality you all are.
Yes, this argument can also be made to a lesser extent for Scotland and Wales - with Wales, remember 10%+ of England's population gets its water from reservoirs in Wales.
I see. So the rest of the UK is now borrowing Putinist tactics. Would you really want to be damming the Thames to blackmail London? Is that the sort of neighbour that the rest of the UK would wish to be?
London would not be the only place in the world that was dependent on others for essential supplies (Britain itself hasn't been self-sufficient in food for many years). It's a bizarre objection really.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
I'd be genuinely sad if London left
London needs a new settlement. The rest of the UK cannot expect to keep fleecing it and simultaneously holding its opinions in contempt. One or both will need to give sooner or later.
Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier for all concerned if you just sold up and moved to Brussels. I mean it would save years of red tape and legal fees for the entire country, think of the benefits and the children.
You could probably negotiate a good package to be fair given potential overall CAPEX savings and Eurostar and Easyjet tickets are quite competitive at the moment
I'm not sure it would be particularly convenient for Leavers if all those who supported Remain were to decamp to another country. Who would pay for their lifestyles?
We just meant you Alistair.
In the old days malcontents with developments in European politics simply exiled themselves to the colonies.
Suggested compromise - we give London autonomy and create a new area called 'England' with its capital in Winchester, while putting the capital of the federal UK in Sheffield.
That resolves all the issues around London at a stroke - lack of water, power, housing, total separation from the rest of the country etc. by moving half the people to places that do have such things.
Reversing the mistake of William the Conqueror in moving the capital there in the first place and updating the Saxon arrangements to suit the fact that we are no longer just England.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
I'd be genuinely sad if London left
London needs a new settlement. The rest of the UK cannot expect to keep fleecing it and simultaneously holding its opinions in contempt. One or both will need to give sooner or later.
Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier for all concerned if you just sold up and moved to Brussels. I mean it would save years of red tape and legal fees for the entire country, think of the benefits and the children.
You could probably negotiate a good package to be fair given potential overall CAPEX savings and Eurostar and Easyjet tickets are quite competitive at the moment
I'm not sure it would be particularly convenient for Leavers if all those who supported Remain were to decamp to another country. Who would pay for their lifestyles?
We just meant you Alistair.
Trust me, I'm a moderate compared with many. Here's Stephen Bayley's take on it:
Mr Meeks infamous soothsaying. PB's own Nostradamus.
"AlastairMeeks Posts: 10,815 7:29PM April 2016 I continue to expect a clear win for Remain. I predicted 60:40 at the start of the year and that still looks entirely possible to me. "
I'm not seeking to halt or delay the outcome. I set out a route map for Remainers last week for engagement.
Oddly, all the Leavers focused on one minor detail in that proposal. It seems that Leavers were extremely happy to leave the EU, so long as they didn't have to pay any part of the costs entailed in that.
As we are seeing again this morning, where the Leavers are trying to sting London for the bill.
Alistair, how long would you last without the water supplies from the rest of the country? Or the food we grow? Or the electricity we generate and send to you? Or farmers taking the processed residue of the sewage of London's sewers to be spread on their land?
Bluntly, I don't like London much - it's an expensive dump - but I think you will find if you look at the externalities rather than just the headline figure your case is a lot less clear cut. I don't object to that because it's part of being one country. I do object to London thinking it is all a question of money. It makes me wonder just how divorced from reality you all are.
Yes, this argument can also be made to a lesser extent for Scotland and Wales - with Wales, remember 10%+ of England's population gets its water from reservoirs in Wales.
I see. So the rest of the UK is now borrowing Putinist tactics. Would you really want to be damming the Thames to blackmail London? Is that the sort of neighbour that the rest of the UK would wish to be?
London would not be the only place in the world that was dependent on others for essential supplies (Britain itself hasn't been self-sufficient in food for many years). It's a bizarre objection really.
Er, no, I am pointing out that you depend on us for certain things. You seemed to be suggesting you all lived on air while us ungrateful bumpkins outside take your money and give nothing back. The fact you took it as a threat is instructive.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
Alistair, you're doing yourself no favours. Your attitude is why so many of our countryfolk despite the people of the metropolis.
London without England would be cut adrift, diminished and ultimately irrelevant.
Victim blaming, I see
The arrogance with which the country mice expect Londoners to subsidise their hobby horses is breathtaking.
I'm a Londoner, from a family that has interests in both London and the West Country.
We understand both sides - it is a symbiotic relationship that strengthens both immensely.
And I'm not blaming you. Just chiding.
You speak as if London were the only city in the UK and the mass of the country outside the M25 had congruent interests.
London has a disproportionate weight, but not meant to exclude other cities. My own experience is primarily London/West Country, so can't comment on the rest of the country in the same way, although I'd expect that rural interests are not dissimilar wherever they are
Swimming's world governing body Fina said the water tanks had run out of some of the chemicals used in the water treatment process.
Anything special on at the pool this week...nah...somebody has booked it for something called the Olympics, never heard of it, don't worry about checking the chemical supplies.
Mr Meeks infamous soothsaying. PB's own Nostradamus.
"AlastairMeeks Posts: 10,815 7:29PM April 2016 I continue to expect a clear win for Remain. I predicted 60:40 at the start of the year and that still looks entirely possible to me. "
60%!!!!!!
I get things wrong all the time. Every year I do a thread at the end of the year enumerating all my many mistakes from the beginning of the year.
Mr. Scrapheap, ha, tempting, but I can only keep track of one sport at a time.
Mr. Richard, ah, it's been a long time since I read The Iliad. Interesting point. There are many who think gladiatorial combat originated from funeral games (probably duelling prisoners of war).
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
I'd be genuinely sad if London left
London needs a new settlement. The rest of the UK cannot expect to keep fleecing it and simultaneously holding its opinions in contempt. One or both will need to give sooner or later.
Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier for all concerned if you just sold up and moved to Brussels. I mean it would save years of red tape and legal fees for the entire country, think of the benefits and the children.
You could probably negotiate a good package to be fair given potential overall CAPEX savings and Eurostar and Easyjet tickets are quite competitive at the moment
I'm not sure it would be particularly convenient for Leavers if all those who supported Remain were to decamp to another country. Who would pay for their lifestyles?
Just catching up with the ginger flier just making the long jump qualification.
I was looking through the distances required to win medals in this event and basically for 40 years (excluding the one at attitude) it is always within a very similar range. Most events if you said I can do the time / distance of 40 years ago, that probably isn't not even be good enough for the final these days.
I wonder what it is about the likes of long jump that means human performance hasn't improved.
I'm not seeking to halt or delay the outcome. I set out a route map for Remainers last week for engagement.
Oddly, all the Leavers focused on one minor detail in that proposal. It seems that Leavers were extremely happy to leave the EU, so long as they didn't have to pay any part of the costs entailed in that.
As we are seeing again this morning, where the Leavers are trying to sting London for the bill.
Alistair, how long would you last without the water supplies from the rest of the country? Or the food we grow? Or the electricity we generate and send to you? Or farmers taking the processed residue of the sewage of London's sewers to be spread on their land?
Bluntly, I don't like London much - it's an expensive dump - but I think you will find if you look at the externalities rather than just the headline figure your case is a lot less clear cut. I don't object to that because it's part of being one country. I do object to London thinking it is all a question of money. It makes me wonder just how divorced from reality you all are.
Yes, this argument can also be made to a lesser extent for Scotland and Wales - with Wales, remember 10%+ of England's population gets its water from reservoirs in Wales.
I see. So the rest of the UK is now borrowing Putinist tactics. Would you really want to be damming the Thames to blackmail London? Is that the sort of neighbour that the rest of the UK would wish to be?
London would not be the only place in the world that was dependent on others for essential supplies (Britain itself hasn't been self-sufficient in food for many years). It's a bizarre objection really.
Er, no, I am pointing out that you depend on us for certain things. You seemed to be suggesting you all lived on air while us ungrateful bumpkins outside take your money and give nothing back. The fact you took it as a threat is instructive.
I hope your husband is getting better, BTW.
I don't think you can claim much credit for contiguity. You can find equivalent examples around the world.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
I'd be genuinely sad if London left
London needs a new settlement. The rest of the UK cannot expect to keep fleecing it and simultaneously holding its opinions in contempt. One or both will need to give sooner or later.
Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier for all concerned if you just sold up and moved to Brussels. I mean it would save years of red tape and legal fees for the entire country, think of the benefits and the children.
You could probably negotiate a good package to be fair given potential overall CAPEX savings and Eurostar and Easyjet tickets are quite competitive at the moment
I'm not sure it would be particularly convenient for Leavers if all those who supported Remain were to decamp to another country. Who would pay for their lifestyles?
We just meant you Alistair.
Trust me, I'm a moderate compared with many. Here's Stephen Bayley's take on it:
I seek out countervailing views and opinions. It's healthy. Sam Coates is a much better advocate against Brexit, Janan Ganesh better still. I've always held that if you can't put the other side's argument for them, you're not merely partisan, you're a bigot. I flatter myself I can write a fairly decent pro-EU case.
Bayley's article is just an extended whine full of irrelevant assertions and non sequiturs.
Mr Meeks infamous soothsaying. PB's own Nostradamus.
"AlastairMeeks Posts: 10,815 7:29PM April 2016 I continue to expect a clear win for Remain. I predicted 60:40 at the start of the year and that still looks entirely possible to me. "
60%!!!!!!
I get things wrong all the time. Every year I do a thread at the end of the year enumerating all my many mistakes from the beginning of the year.
The trick is to try to learn from your mistakes.
That is good. Now why not just chill out and stop finding some tiny indication of a problem with Leaving. It will not make you happy to carry on in this futile manner and when you are finally proved wrong (again) you will just feel terrible.
Mr Meeks infamous soothsaying. PB's own Nostradamus.
"AlastairMeeks Posts: 10,815 7:29PM April 2016 I continue to expect a clear win for Remain. I predicted 60:40 at the start of the year and that still looks entirely possible to me. "
60%!!!!!!
I note the Feb 29th Nojam prediction contest seems to have disappeared, perhaps to cover over how poor most PBers are at predicting anything.
Though perhaps one closer to the date may well have shifted.
(Pauses while leafing through his prize for winning the PB mayoral contest)
I'm not seeking to halt or delay the outcome. I set out a route map for Remainers last week for engagement.
Oddly, all the Leavers focused on one minor detail in that proposal. It seems that Leavers were extremely happy to leave the EU, so long as they didn't have to pay any part of the costs entailed in that.
As we are seeing again this morning, where the Leavers are trying to sting London for the bill.
Alistair, how long would you last without the water supplies from the rest of the country? Or the food we grow? Or the electricity we generate and send to you? Or farmers taking the processed residue of the sewage of London's sewers to be spread on their land?
Bluntly, I don't like London much - it's an expensive dump - but I think you will find if you look at the externalities rather than just the headline figure your case is a lot less clear cut. I don't object to that because it's part of being one country. I do object to London thinking it is all a question of money. It makes me wonder just how divorced from reality you all are.
Yes, this argument can also be made to a lesser extent for Scotland and Wales - with Wales, remember 10%+ of England's population gets its water from reservoirs in Wales.
I see. So the rest of the UK is now borrowing Putinist tactics. Would you really want to be damming the Thames to blackmail London? Is that the sort of neighbour that the rest of the UK would wish to be?
London would not be the only place in the world that was dependent on others for essential supplies (Britain itself hasn't been self-sufficient in food for many years). It's a bizarre objection really.
Er, no, I am pointing out that you depend on us for certain things. You seemed to be suggesting you all lived on air while us ungrateful bumpkins outside take your money and give nothing back. The fact you took it as a threat is instructive.
I hope your husband is getting better, BTW.
I don't think you can claim much credit for contiguity. You can find equivalent examples around the world.
City states pay for such things directly. London provides additional resources via its GDP in exchange. That's a good deal for everyone. When you get people who feel it isn't, there you get Brexiteer-style arguments in favour of London independence. And that comes from both sides - you might be surprised how many people in England in particular hate Londoners and see them as greedy whingers. Which is not, in my view, helpful to national civic discourse.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
Alistair, you're doing yourself no favours. Your attitude is why so many of our countryfolk despite the people of the metropolis.
London without England would be cut adrift, diminished and ultimately irrelevant.
Victim blaming, I see
The arrogance with which the country mice expect Londoners to subsidise their hobby horses is breathtaking.
I'm a Londoner, from a family that has interests in both London and the West Country.
We understand both sides - it is a symbiotic relationship that strengthens both immensely.
And I'm not blaming you. Just chiding.
You speak as if London were the only city in the UK and the mass of the country outside the M25 had congruent interests.
London has a disproportionate weight, but not meant to exclude other cities. My own experience is primarily London/West Country, so can't comment on the rest of the country in the same way, although I'd expect that rural interests are not dissimilar wherever they are
Rural interests, possibly, but the English population is one of the least rural in the world.
I could imagine your American analogue saying, "We have interests in Manhattan and the Hamptons so we understand both sides of the country."
City states pay for such things directly. London provides additional resources via its GDP in exchange. That's a good deal for everyone. When you get people who feel it isn't, there you get Brexiteer-style arguments in favour of London independence. And that comes from both sides - you might be surprised how many people in England in particular hate Londoners and see them as greedy whingers. Which is not, in my view, helpful to national civic discourse.
I know how many people in England hate London. That's exactly why I see the UK as dying and why the sooner we create more stable demoses, the better. There's no point staying in a loveless marriage.
the 75% of young voters who wanted to Remain have lost opportunities to work and live in 27 different countries.
No - they've lost the automatic *right* not the *opportunity*
when they lose their hated Polish shops, it will mean they have no shops at all since the ethnic British probably lack the enterprise to open them.
So all these ethnic British who lack the enterprise to open a store are all going to get great jobs abroad, right?
It’s a harsh fact that well-educated AB youth and sophisticates like the EU, while C2DE old people with poor qualifications distrust it.
I guess he didn't look at the voting data then
I do not want to live in a country with values defined by an ugly liaison of mendacious opportunistic politicians and unlettered old folk. And nor can I now go to live anywhere sunnier or more optimistic.
Lucky we don't live in a country like that. And he can still move to Greece, Italy or Spain if he wants. I guess youth unemployment isn't an issue to be concerned about.
[It was a pretentious article as a whole as well as being rubbish]
"I wonder if Sunderland and Boston realise that when they lose their hated Polish shops, it will mean they have no shops at all since the ethnic British probably lack the enterprise to open them."
Ho, ho, ho. One shouldn't laugh, but I love the sound of Remainers moaning in the morning.
As Mr PB advises, take a chill pill, read about Dr Pangloss, sell your house in Hungary and visit a region in the UK. It's a beautiful country.
Just catching up with the ginger flier just making the long jump qualification.
I was looking through the distances required to win medals in this event and basically for 40 years (excluding the one at attitude) it is always within a very similar range. Most events if you said I can do the time / distance of 40 years ago, that probably isn't not even be good enough for the final these days.
I wonder what it is about the likes of long jump that means human performance hasn't improved.
Attitude obviously helps the long jumpers but altitude (eg Mexico) helps even more - less gravity and less air resistance.
I seek out countervailing views and opinions. It's healthy. Sam Coates is a much better advocate against Brexit, Janan Ganesh better still. I've always held that if you can't put the other side's argument for them, you're not merely partisan, you're a bigot. I flatter myself I can write a fairly decent pro-EU case.
Bayley's article is just an extended whine full of irrelevant assertions and non sequiturs.
Leavers haven't begun to understand the depth of emotion among some Remainers (incidentally, I am not one of those - I have other outlets for my emotion right now). The intense feeling of disgust with Leavers continues unabated. It is not going to subside quickly, especially since at present it has no effective political outlet. Sooner or later, it will find one.
If you think that an alienated underclass is a bad thing, just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
Alistair, you're doing yourself no favours. Your attitude is why so many of our countryfolk despite the people of the metropolis.
London without England would be cut adrift, diminished and ultimately irrelevant.
Victim blaming, I see
The arrogance with which the country mice expect Londoners to subsidise their hobby horses is breathtaking.
I'm a Londoner, from a family that has interests in both London and the West Country.
We understand both sides - it is a symbiotic relationship that strengthens both immensely.
And I'm not blaming you. Just chiding.
You speak as if London were the only city in the UK and the mass of the country outside the M25 had congruent interests.
London has a disproportionate weight, but not meant to exclude other cities. My own experience is primarily London/West Country, so can't comment on the rest of the country in the same way, although I'd expect that rural interests are not dissimilar wherever they are
Rural interests, possibly, but the English population is one of the least rural in the world.
I could imagine your American analogue saying, "We have interests in Manhattan and the Hamptons so we understand both sides of the country."
Not really - the Hamptons is just Manhattan on the cost.
London's just a place of business - but we need to understand our clients. The West Country is where our dead are buried.
Mr. Doethur, hatred of London does baffle me. [Baffle is today's word of choice, it seems].
I can see why there are disputes over spending per head, allocation of cultural sites so predominantly, even given the population/transport links, in London and so on. But hate just seems a bit... odd. As well as being distasteful.
Anyway, it's all very sour and bitter on here today so I am off. I need to practice on a large organ. I am not happy with the climax at the end of the third hymn and I need to find a way to bring it off better. It was much easier in Aberystwyth where the organ had an excellent horn that you could vary the level of. I also worry that it is losing pressure from somewhere and I need to deal with this before trying anything big.
I do hope that sharing my plans has cheered everyone up, and if @TheScreamingEagles and @Theuniondivvie look in later that they were phrased in an appropriately Carry On fashion.
Mr. Doethur, hatred of London does baffle me. [Baffle is today's word of choice, it seems].
I can see why there are disputes over spending per head, allocation of cultural sites so predominantly, even given the population/transport links, in London and so on. But hate just seems a bit... odd. As well as being distasteful.
I'll tell you what I hate. We get BBC London News in Woking and it's supposed to cover more than just Greater London. However, all they ever talk about is Greater London and waste a lot of time acting as a free advertising slot for London's theatres. There could be a massive scandal in a local authority outside of the Greater London area and you wouldn't hear about it.
If you think that an alienated underclass is a bad thing, just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite.
The odd thing is that I really haven't met any member of the "metropolitan elite" who appears to be as bitter and vengeful as you
I'm not the slightest bit vengeful. I do find it odd how vehemently Leavers seem to reject the idea that they should meet the tab for their choice and I do regard the way in which Leave won morally repugnant, but we must do our best to salvage something from the moral disaster.
There's no point standing among the wreckage open-mouthed. It's time to be clearing away the debris and seeing what we can rebuild.
If the IOC ever wanted to field an army to frighten the enemy - just the women's shotput and hammer throwers would do it.
They're a scary looking bunch, and could throw those Cuban featherweight boxers yards!
Less scary than before dope-testing, I think.
For us older-timers who recall the East Germans and others - it really was the most peculiar period in sporting history. I haven't heard of anyone being sex-tested at these games either. That must be a first - or they're getting a lot more discrete.
'Mr Meeks infamous soothsaying. PB's own Nostradamus.
"AlastairMeeks Posts: 10,815 7:29PM April 2016 I continue to expect a clear win for Remain. I predicted 60:40 at the start of the year and that still looks entirely possible to me. "
That's what happens when you are completely divorced from the real world.
If you think that an alienated underclass is a bad thing, just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite.
The odd thing is that I really haven't met any member of the "metropolitan elite" who appears to be as bitter and vengeful as you
I'm not the slightest bit vengeful. I do find it odd how vehemently Leavers seem to reject the idea that they should meet the tab for their choice and I do regard the way in which Leave won morally repugnant, but we must do our best to salvage something from the moral disaster.
There's no point standing among the wreckage open-mouthed. It's time to be clearing away the debris and seeing what we can rebuild.
"just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite" sounds pretty vengeful to me
With reference to London leaving the UK, I know we all understand it's a silly idea that would never happen in the real world, but just in case anyone was half serious surely the following would happen:
- Government and all national bodies would leave for the new capital. - Aggressive UK Gvt policies would see the creative industries relocate, other than the West End, probably to Manchester. The BBC and ITV would move, leading the others. - Non-Financial corporate HQs would leave. - Heathrow would be run down. Where would you put your airport? - The residual port activity would be moved further down the estuary. - The Royal Familiy would leave, and with them the related tourism.
This leaves us with the City and an eclectic bunch of other industries within London which would die as the London "brand" diminished (ultimately somewhere would replace the West End for example. All the commuters would stop coming, apart from the most well paid City workers.
Since there would be no British Government to stand behind the banks, investment firms, and pension funds, they too would be diminished over time. The likes of Frankfurt would surely benefit but the UK Government would not stand idle - note that many of these firms have back offices they could relocate "front offices" to in the provinces.
And I haven't even started on the subject of "the EU would never let London join".
These counter factuals are fun aren't they? Good job no one is serious about London independence. Then again, it's suddenly quite tempting..... I wouldn't have to commute, you say?
If you think that an alienated underclass is a bad thing, just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite.
The odd thing is that I really haven't met any member of the "metropolitan elite" who appears to be as bitter and vengeful as you
I'm not the slightest bit vengeful. I do find it odd how vehemently Leavers seem to reject the idea that they should meet the tab for their choice and I do regard the way in which Leave won morally repugnant, but we must do our best to salvage something from the moral disaster.
There's no point standing among the wreckage open-mouthed. It's time to be clearing away the debris and seeing what we can rebuild.
"just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite" sounds pretty vengeful to me
Oh that's not about me. That's a prediction, not a threat. I have no intention of myself taking part in an insurrection. Quite apart from anything else, I don't have the time for the foreseeable future.
City states pay for such things directly. London provides additional resources via its GDP in exchange. That's a good deal for everyone. When you get people who feel it isn't, there you get Brexiteer-style arguments in favour of London independence. And that comes from both sides - you might be surprised how many people in England in particular hate Londoners and see them as greedy whingers. Which is not, in my view, helpful to national civic discourse.
I know how many people in England hate London. That's exactly why I see the UK as dying and why the sooner we create more stable demoses, the better. There's no point staying in a loveless marriage.
I don't hate London. I quite enjoy going there, but not as much as the journey home. I may spend some of the year there when I retire, but couldn't bear to live there most of the time. There is no peace.
I have pointed out many times that a large share of the Capitol's GDP is generated by people who live outside its boundaries, who work there but do not live there. Many Londoners also retire elsewhere so their economic activity shows in Devon rather than London. Many companies declare their profits in London for national businesses or even international ones.
So it is rather simplistic to say that London subsidises the provinces to the degree claimed, though I suspect that it does to a degree.
Mr. Meeks, you're upset that London is a big net contributor to the UK but perfectly content that the UK was a big net contributor to the EU?
London is a far bigger net contributor to the rest of the UK than Britain is to the rest of the EU. It sees far less back from this expenditure also.
London gets lots of institutions of government, transport links, high levels of public spending, commuters, food, water, power, and Bank of England backing for the City. It doesn't do badly out of the present settlement.
London sucks the country dry of talent.
It's the only place I can live. I'm epileptic, so the DVLA took my licence away.
Yes, there are no epileptics outside of London.
It is easier in London to live without a car though. Indeed it is a burden in most parts.
I don't doubt that. But the assertion that London is the 'only' place someone can live as an epileptic without a car seems overly restrictive.
"If you think that an alienated underclass is a bad thing, just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite."
Now I know you're deliberately taking the piss. A good sign that you're finally recovering.
An alienated metropolitan elite? They'll refuse funds to subsidise the Opera? They'll demonstrate outside Harrods? Or wear an expensively-crafted T-shirt with the words 'Oh, bother, Leavers are extremely naughty'.
Just catching up with the ginger flier just making the long jump qualification.
I was looking through the distances required to win medals in this event and basically for 40 years (excluding the one at attitude) it is always within a very similar range. Most events if you said I can do the time / distance of 40 years ago, that probably isn't not even be good enough for the final these days.
I wonder what it is about the likes of long jump that means human performance hasn't improved.
Attitude obviously helps the long jumpers but altitude (eg Mexico) helps even more - less gravity and less air resistance.
Bob Beamon's long jump in Mexico remains the greatest margin that an althetics world record has ever been improved - amazing feat, and only Mike Powell has jumped longer in the intervening 48 years.
My heart bleeds purple piss for the London wealthy.
"Do as we say, now pay for it" isn't an attractive message. I suggest it needs a bit of honing if it is not going to lead to further break-up of the UK.
Really your grievance against "less civilised" parts of the UK is trivial. You're a wealthy man living in the capital of a prosperous liberal democracy which will remain a prosperous liberal democracy. That's not a bad position to be in.
"If you think that an alienated underclass is a bad thing, just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite."
Now I know you're deliberately taking the piss. A good sign that you're finally recovering.
An alienated metropolitan elite? They'll refuse funds to subsidise the Opera? They'll demonstrate outside Harrods? Or wear an expensively-crafted T-shirt with the words 'Oh, bother, Leavers are extremely naughty'.
Or wear an expensively-crafted and third world sweatshop made T-shirt pronouncing their moral superiority.
Just catching up with the ginger flier just making the long jump qualification.
I was looking through the distances required to win medals in this event and basically for 40 years (excluding the one at attitude) it is always within a very similar range. Most events if you said I can do the time / distance of 40 years ago, that probably isn't not even be good enough for the final these days.
I wonder what it is about the likes of long jump that means human performance hasn't improved.
Attitude obviously helps the long jumpers but altitude (eg Mexico) helps even more - less gravity and less air resistance.
Bob Beamon's long jump in Mexico remains the greatest margin that an althetics world record has ever been improved - amazing feat, and only Mike Powell has jumped longer in the intervening 48 years.
He was just about jumping on the moon though. I'm quite sure that Powell could have gone well over 9m had he been allowed to set a record at Mexico City (altitude 2200m+).
I seek out countervailing views and opinions. It's healthy. Sam Coates is a much better advocate against Brexit, Janan Ganesh better still. I've always held that if you can't put the other side's argument for them, you're not merely partisan, you're a bigot. I flatter myself I can write a fairly decent pro-EU case.
Bayley's article is just an extended whine full of irrelevant assertions and non sequiturs.
Leavers haven't begun to understand the depth of emotion among some Remainers (incidentally, I am not one of those - I have other outlets for my emotion right now). The intense feeling of disgust with Leavers continues unabated. It is not going to subside quickly, especially since at present it has no effective political outlet. Sooner or later, it will find one.
If you think that an alienated underclass is a bad thing, just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite.
“And I mean, if it is true, that’s OK too because all I have to do is stop funding the Republican Party. I’m the one raising the money for them,” Trump said. “In fact, right now I’m in Orlando. I’m going to a fundraiser for the Republican Party. If they want to do that, they can save me a lot of time and a lot of energy.”
Mr. Scrapheap, ha, tempting, but I can only keep track of one sport at a time.
Mr. Richard, ah, it's been a long time since I read The Iliad. Interesting point. There are many who think gladiatorial combat originated from funeral games (probably duelling prisoners of war).
More nerd stats - London 2012 stadium 80k, Rio 50k and at least half empty.
There were loads of empty seats at the London Olympics. They had to bus in off-duty squaddies and give free tickets to nearby youth clubs.
Construction scams in Rio de Janeiro; construction scams in London. It's all bollocks. Putting HMS Ocean in the Thames to protect "the Games" was also bollocks. Running round in circles really fast using drug-enhanced muscles and dressed in a national flag is wow.
Of course no middle class or elite person who watches sport on the television ever gets influenced by the advertising.
Mr. Richard, that's one theory although probably unlikely. It's addressed briefly by Philip Matyszak in the Gladiator Unofficial Manual [light-hearted but well worth reading] and, I think, in the more serious book by Fik Meijer, Gladiators: History's Most Deadly Sport.
[I've just finished re-reading the Matyszak book but it's been a while since I read the sombre Meijer work].
More nerd stats - London 2012 stadium 80k, Rio 50k and at least half empty.
There were loads of empty seats at the London Olympics. They had to bus in off-duty squaddies and give free tickets to nearby youth clubs.
Construction scams in Rio de Janeiro; construction scams in London. It's all bollocks. Putting HMS Ocean in the Thames to protect "the Games" was also bollocks. Running round in circles really fast using drug-enhanced muscles and dressed in a national flag is wow.
Of course no middle class or elite person who watches sport on the television ever gets influenced by the advertising.
More nerd stats - London 2012 stadium 80k, Rio 50k and at least half empty.
Why don't you enjoy the sport on show which is generally excellent rather than count empty seats and whine about attendance?
I think it reflects very badly on the IOC.
As an aside it's worth saying, that the UK has changed quite a bit in the last 20 years. If you go back to Euro 96 the attendance at the non England/Scotland games was not good. I reckon if we were hosting the 2018 World Cup, you would be hard pressed to get a ticket - even for the least attractive fixtures.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
I'd be genuinely sad if London left
London needs a new settlement. The rest of the UK cannot expect to keep fleecing it and simultaneously holding its opinions in contempt. One or both will need to give sooner or later.
What do you define as London and Londoners? Do I, as someone on 30k working in Central London, but living in Woking (and paying 3k for the privilege to do the commute), count as a Londoner? Should I get to vote in the London Mayoral election?
FWIW, I was chatting to Andy Hornby (of HBOS infamy) about house prices a few years ago - he used the example of someone on £30K but forced to live in Woking & commute to Central London because of house prices as his archetype of why the economy was f****d
Mr "mending the roof while the sun is shining" Hornby?
Didn't know he said that!
But he did move from running a bank to managing a casino...
I saw him present just after he took over HBoS, and his whole pitch was that the most important thing in banking was "mending the roof while the sun was shining". It was richly ironic, therefore, when 18 months later, it turned out the roof had been stripped of tiles under his watch.
He was a man - I suspect - trapped between what his board and shareholders wanted (rapid growth), and what he feared (a housing collapse). He was not incentivised to run the bank cautiously, and therefore he did not.
I'm not seeking to halt or delay the outcome. I set out a route map for Remainers last week for engagement.
Oddly, all the Leavers focused on one minor detail in that proposal. It seems that Leavers were extremely happy to leave the EU, so long as they didn't have to pay any part of the costs entailed in that.
As we are seeing again this morning, where the Leavers are trying to sting London for the bill.
Alistair, how long would you last without the water supplies from the rest of the country? Or the food we grow? Or the electricity we generate and send to you? Or farmers taking the processed residue of the sewage of London's sewers to be spread on their land?
Bluntly, I don't like London much - it's an expensive dump - but I think you will find if you look at the externalities rather than just the headline figure your case is a lot less clear cut. I don't object to that because it's part of being one country. I do object to London thinking it is all a question of money. It makes me wonder just how divorced from reality you all are.
Yes, this argument can also be made to a lesser extent for Scotland and Wales - with Wales, remember 10%+ of England's population gets its water from reservoirs in Wales.
I see. So the rest of the UK is now borrowing Putinist tactics. Would you really want to be damming the Thames to blackmail London? Is that the sort of neighbour that the rest of the UK would wish to be?
London would not be the only place in the world that was dependent on others for essential supplies (Britain itself hasn't been self-sufficient in food for many years). It's a bizarre objection really.
More nerd stats - London 2012 stadium 80k, Rio 50k and at least half empty.
There were loads of empty seats at the London Olympics. They had to bus in off-duty squaddies and give free tickets to nearby youth clubs.
Construction scams in Rio de Janeiro; construction scams in London. It's all bollocks. Putting HMS Ocean in the Thames to protect "the Games" was also bollocks. Running round in circles really fast using drug-enhanced muscles and dressed in a national flag is wow.
Of course no middle class or elite person who watches sport on the television ever gets influenced by the advertising.
They couldn't have bussed all that many in: the entire British army is smaller than the capacity of Wembley Stadium.
More nerd stats - London 2012 stadium 80k, Rio 50k and at least half empty.
There were loads of empty seats at the London Olympics. They had to bus in off-duty squaddies and give free tickets to nearby youth clubs.
Construction scams in Rio de Janeiro; construction scams in London. It's all bollocks. Putting HMS Ocean in the Thames to protect "the Games" was also bollocks. Running round in circles really fast using drug-enhanced muscles and dressed in a national flag is wow.
Of course no middle class person who watches sport on the television ever gets influenced by the advertising.
I think the psychological impact of national sporting prowess is a fascinating subject. It's influenced all manner of countries to pour in vast resources - as a way to prove themselves worthy of respect/punch above their weight globally. The Germans used them as propaganda and then to redeem themselves, the USSR/USA as massive Cold War pissing contests...
Countries bidding for it have all manner of motivations which is why I find Rio's poor attendances so sad. They've also had the WC within the last couple of years, so were clearly on a mission to strut their stuff.
If the IOC ever wanted to field an army to frighten the enemy - just the women's shotput and hammer throwers would do it.
They're a scary looking bunch, and could throw those Cuban featherweight boxers yards!
Less scary than before dope-testing, I think.
For us older-timers who recall the East Germans and others - it really was the most peculiar period in sporting history. I haven't heard of anyone being sex-tested at these games either. That must be a first - or they're getting a lot more discrete.
IIRC HRH The Princess Royal was the only person NOT sex tested at one Olympics.
If you think that an alienated underclass is a bad thing, just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite.
The odd thing is that I really haven't met any member of the "metropolitan elite" who appears to be as bitter and vengeful as you
I'm not the slightest bit vengeful. I do find it odd how vehemently Leavers seem to reject the idea that they should meet the tab for their choice and I do regard the way in which Leave won morally repugnant, but we must do our best to salvage something from the moral disaster.
There's no point standing among the wreckage open-mouthed. It's time to be clearing away the debris and seeing what we can rebuild.
"just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite" sounds pretty vengeful to me
Oh that's not about me. That's a prediction, not a threat. I have no intention of myself taking part in an insurrection. Quite apart from anything else, I don't have the time for the foreseeable future.
You mean we don't need to be scared of metropolitan jessies running amok , scaring our children and throwing bottles of Bollinger at people. I can relax.
If the IOC ever wanted to field an army to frighten the enemy - just the women's shotput and hammer throwers would do it.
They're a scary looking bunch, and could throw those Cuban featherweight boxers yards!
Less scary than before dope-testing, I think.
For us older-timers who recall the East Germans and others - it really was the most peculiar period in sporting history. I haven't heard of anyone being sex-tested at these games either. That must be a first - or they're getting a lot more discrete.
Wait until the women's 800m for the big controversy on that score.
If you think that an alienated underclass is a bad thing, just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite.
The odd thing is that I really haven't met any member of the "metropolitan elite" who appears to be as bitter and vengeful as you
I'm not the slightest bit vengeful. I do find it odd how vehemently Leavers seem to reject the idea that they should meet the tab for their choice and I do regard the way in which Leave won morally repugnant, but we must do our best to salvage something from the moral disaster.
There's no point standing among the wreckage open-mouthed. It's time to be clearing away the debris and seeing what we can rebuild.
"just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite" sounds pretty vengeful to me
Oh that's not about me. That's a prediction, not a threat. I have no intention of myself taking part in an insurrection. Quite apart from anything else, I don't have the time for the foreseeable future.
You mean we don't need to be scared of metropolitan jessies running amok , scaring our children and throwing bottles of Bollinger at people. I can relax.
All they will do is bitch about the plebs at their dinner parties.
Mr. Doethur, hatred of London does baffle me. [Baffle is today's word of choice, it seems].
I can see why there are disputes over spending per head, allocation of cultural sites so predominantly, even given the population/transport links, in London and so on. But hate just seems a bit... odd. As well as being distasteful.
I'll tell you what I hate. We get BBC London News in Woking and it's supposed to cover more than just Greater London. However, all they ever talk about is Greater London and waste a lot of time acting as a free advertising slot for London's theatres. There could be a massive scandal in a local authority outside of the Greater London area and you wouldn't hear about it.
You want to live in Scotland , they don't get closer than 300 miles for us
If the IOC ever wanted to field an army to frighten the enemy - just the women's shotput and hammer throwers would do it.
They're a scary looking bunch, and could throw those Cuban featherweight boxers yards!
Less scary than before dope-testing, I think.
For us older-timers who recall the East Germans and others - it really was the most peculiar period in sporting history. I haven't heard of anyone being sex-tested at these games either. That must be a first - or they're getting a lot more discrete.
IIRC HRH The Princess Royal was the only person NOT sex tested at one Olympics.
Did you see the docu about one of the DDR female athletes?
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
I'd be genuinely sad if London left
London needs a new settlement. The rest of the UK cannot expect to keep fleecing it and simultaneously holding its opinions in contempt. One or both will need to give sooner or later.
What do you define as London and Londoners? Do I, as someone on 30k working in Central London, but living in Woking (and paying 3k for the privilege to do the commute), count as a Londoner? Should I get to vote in the London Mayoral election?
FWIW, I was chatting to Andy Hornby (of HBOS infamy) about house prices a few years ago - he used the example of someone on £30K but forced to live in Woking & commute to Central London because of house prices as his archetype of why the economy was f****d
Mr "mending the roof while the sun is shining" Hornby?
Didn't know he said that!
But he did move from running a bank to managing a casino...
I saw him present just after he took over HBoS, and his whole pitch was that the most important thing in banking was "mending the roof while the sun was shining". It was richly ironic, therefore, when 18 months later, it turned out the roof had been stripped of tiles under his watch.
He was a man - I suspect - trapped between what his board and shareholders wanted (rapid growth), and what he feared (a housing collapse). He was not incentivised to run the bank cautiously, and therefore he did not.
That's true. I got to know him when he was running AB - so he had the benefit of hindsight and thought he was a nice man who was overwhelmed by forces he couldn't control
More nerd stats - London 2012 stadium 80k, Rio 50k and at least half empty.
There were loads of empty seats at the London Olympics. They had to bus in off-duty squaddies and give free tickets to nearby youth clubs.
Construction scams in Rio de Janeiro; construction scams in London. It's all bollocks. Putting HMS Ocean in the Thames to protect "the Games" was also bollocks. Running round in circles really fast using drug-enhanced muscles and dressed in a national flag is wow.
Of course no middle class or elite person who watches sport on the television ever gets influenced by the advertising.
They couldn't have bussed all that many in: the entire British army is smaller than the capacity of Wembley Stadium.
Let's hope they'd be better at standing up to the Russkies than the average Wembley Stadium attendee..
“And I mean, if it is true, that’s OK too because all I have to do is stop funding the Republican Party. I’m the one raising the money for them,” Trump said. “In fact, right now I’m in Orlando. I’m going to a fundraiser for the Republican Party. If they want to do that, they can save me a lot of time and a lot of energy.”
The Politico report is very thin, saying Trump praises Priebus and Priebus says "we’re gonna put him in the White House and save this country together".
Politico reported before the meeting that Trump wanted the RNC to open offices for his campaign in all 50 states.
I'm not seeking to halt or delay the outcome. I set out a route map for Remainers last week for engagement.
Oddly, all the Leavers focused on one minor detail in that proposal. It seems that Leavers were extremely happy to leave the EU, so long as they didn't have to pay any part of the costs entailed in that.
As we are seeing again this morning, where the Leavers are trying to sting London for the bill.
Alistair, how long would you last without the water supplies from the rest of the country? Or the food we grow? Or the electricity we generate and send to you? Or farmers taking the processed residue of the sewage of London's sewers to be spread on their land?
Bluntly, I don't like London much - it's an expensive dump - but I think you will find if you look at the externalities rather than just the headline figure your case is a lot less clear cut. I don't object to that because it's part of being one country. I do object to London thinking it is all a question of money. It makes me wonder just how divorced from reality you all are.
Yes, this argument can also be made to a lesser extent for Scotland and Wales - with Wales, remember 10%+ of England's population gets its water from reservoirs in Wales.
I see. So the rest of the UK is now borrowing Putinist tactics. Would you really want to be damming the Thames to blackmail London? Is that the sort of neighbour that the rest of the UK would wish to be?
London would not be the only place in the world that was dependent on others for essential supplies (Britain itself hasn't been self-sufficient in food for many years). It's a bizarre objection really.
One advantage of us all being part of the same country is that we recognise that there are swings and roundabouts. London might or might not contribute the tax base that Alastair says (I suspect that it's more of an illusion; that a lot of activity that takes place elsewhere in the country ends up in those stats, for example), but even so, in order to maintain London's position, things like Heathrow-3 are seriously considered and might be imposed on Berkshire or Boris Island on (or off) Essex, or whatever the solution is. Were London independent, the answer would either be a flat 'no', or else the starting point would be 'let's talk tens of billions compensation'. That's not Putinesque tactics; it's a simple recognition of the reality of no central authority being able to impose strategic decisions.
And yes, you've just seen the EURef vote. If one entity were seen to be ungratefully buggering off with our money to spend on their own pet whims, that is almost certainly the sort of country that rUK would be. Tough.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
I'd be genuinely sad if London left
London needs a new settlement. The rest of the UK cannot expect to keep fleecing it and simultaneously holding its opinions in contempt. One or both will need to give sooner or later.
What do you define as London and Londoners? Do I, as someone on 30k working in Central London, but living in Woking (and paying 3k for the privilege to do the commute), count as a Londoner? Should I get to vote in the London Mayoral election?
FWIW, I was chatting to Andy Hornby (of HBOS infamy) about house prices a few years ago - he used the example of someone on £30K but forced to live in Woking & commute to Central London because of house prices as his archetype of why the economy was f****d
Mr "mending the roof while the sun is shining" Hornby?
Didn't know he said that!
But he did move from running a bank to managing a casino...
I saw him present just after he took over HBoS, and his whole pitch was that the most important thing in banking was "mending the roof while the sun was shining". It was richly ironic, therefore, when 18 months later, it turned out the roof had been stripped of tiles under his watch.
He was a man - I suspect - trapped between what his board and shareholders wanted (rapid growth), and what he feared (a housing collapse). He was not incentivised to run the bank cautiously, and therefore he did not.
That's true. I got to know him when he was running AB - so he had the benefit of hindsight and thought he was a nice man who was overwhelmed by forces he couldn't control
As an aside, I'm likely to be at the playground opposite Lords at around 2:30 or 3 today if you're looking for something to do with a small child.
More nerd stats - London 2012 stadium 80k, Rio 50k and at least half empty.
Why don't you enjoy the sport on show which is generally excellent rather than count empty seats and whine about attendance?
I think it reflects very badly on the IOC.
As an aside it's worth saying, that the UK has changed quite a bit in the last 20 years. If you go back to Euro 96 the attendance at the non England/Scotland games was not good. I reckon if we were hosting the 2018 World Cup, you would be hard pressed to get a ticket - even for the least attractive fixtures.
There are plenty of empty seats at Premiership matches too. Cricket attendances are not good (apart from Ashes and 2020).
In many ways these are televisual rather than crowd events.
Regarding earlier discussion re breaking records...
"Since 1972, roughly 10% of the [Olympic] track and field events resulted in world records and if you look at swimming, we're up close to 40%," says Canadian swimming coach and blogger Rick Madge...
If you watch the video of the 100m dash in 1912, you realise that there are things very similar to what is a 100m sprint today," he says. "But as far as competitive swimming is concerned, the only thing really in common is that you will find humans racing in water."
So why is there such a marked difference? Part of it is that the strokes involved in swimming are far more complex than running and are still evolving, says Madge.
"They involve virtually all parts of the body. And they are moving through water which is so much more dense, which means that everything that you do has to be optimised - your head position, your streamline position with your body, how your arms are above and below the water, how you kick. Those are all things that are very complex. It means that there's lots of room for optimisation..."
More nerd stats - London 2012 stadium 80k, Rio 50k and at least half empty.
Why don't you enjoy the sport on show which is generally excellent rather than count empty seats and whine about attendance?
I think it reflects very badly on the IOC.
As an aside it's worth saying, that the UK has changed quite a bit in the last 20 years. If you go back to Euro 96 the attendance at the non England/Scotland games was not good. I reckon if we were hosting the 2018 World Cup, you would be hard pressed to get a ticket - even for the least attractive fixtures.
There are plenty of empty seats at Premiership matches too. Cricket attendances are not good (apart from Ashes and 2020).
In many ways these are televisual rather than crowd events.
Even Test Matches are not sold out outside other than Lords and, sometimes, The Oval.
More nerd stats - London 2012 stadium 80k, Rio 50k and at least half empty.
Why don't you enjoy the sport on show which is generally excellent rather than count empty seats and whine about attendance?
I think it reflects very badly on the IOC.
As an aside it's worth saying, that the UK has changed quite a bit in the last 20 years. If you go back to Euro 96 the attendance at the non England/Scotland games was not good. I reckon if we were hosting the 2018 World Cup, you would be hard pressed to get a ticket - even for the least attractive fixtures.
There are plenty of empty seats at Premiership matches too. Cricket attendances are not good (apart from Ashes and 2020).
In many ways these are televisual rather than crowd events.
Even Test Matches are not sold out outside other than Lords and, sometimes, The Oval.
They aren't at all comparable. Olympics come to a country very rarely.
Regarding Athens - there don't seem to be any fans of it on here - I can barely recall it bar all the fuss about it being a mad dash to get it built in the last few days.
What made it so third rate? I did like the laurels.
Really good article by David. Nothing to add, but wanted to say that anyway.
And belated sympathies to Alastair (I've been pretty sidetracked lately for non-political reasons). It all sounded very distressing and I do hope your partner turns the corner successfully.
I don't suppose you're afraid of me. Would you like to give me a percentage of your income every year and let me decide how it should be spent?
As another_richard has just pointed out, it appears that I already have.
Time for the civilised parts of the country to look for the exits. The United Kingdom is done now. Time to create demoses on smaller levels.
I'd be genuinely sad if London left
London needs a new settlement. The rest of the UK cannot expect to keep fleecing it and simultaneously holding its opinions in contempt. One or both will need to give sooner or later.
Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier for all concerned if you just sold up and moved to Brussels. I mean it would save years of red tape and legal fees for the entire country, think of the benefits and the children.
You could probably negotiate a good package to be fair given potential overall CAPEX savings and Eurostar and Easyjet tickets are quite competitive at the moment
I'm not sure it would be particularly convenient for Leavers if all those who supported Remain were to decamp to another country. Who would pay for their lifestyles?
We just meant you Alistair.
Trust me, I'm a moderate compared with many. Here's Stephen Bayley's take on it:
There are plenty of empty seats at Premiership matches too. Cricket attendances are not good (apart from Ashes and 2020).
In many ways these are televisual rather than crowd events.
Rather the opposite problem at Lords - It's a devilish situation ....
Hordes of plebs quaffing champers from plastic flutes and munching on pre-pack M&S fayre. Can't they get cook to rustle up a decent luncheon or if they must a hamper from Fortnum .... the country is going to the dogs !!
Veggies should be held in the same contempt as advocates of STV and swiftly dispatched at an abattoir or transported to a former colony, Australia might be suitable, for re-education.
There are plenty of empty seats at Premiership matches too. Cricket attendances are not good (apart from Ashes and 2020).
In many ways these are televisual rather than crowd events.
Rather the opposite problem at Lords - It's a devilish situation ....
Hordes of plebs quaffing champers from plastic flutes and munching on pre-pack M&S fayre. Can't they get cook to rustle up a decent luncheon or if they must a hamper from Fortnum .... the country is going to the dogs !!
I did go to a test at Old Trafford once, and the folks behind had a bit of a hamper explosion, with their fayre rolling under our seats. I remember handing back to a rather sheepish looking chap a home-made cling-film wrapped roll marked "Raspberry and Cointreau Roulade".....
More nerd stats - London 2012 stadium 80k, Rio 50k and at least half empty.
Why don't you enjoy the sport on show which is generally excellent rather than count empty seats and whine about attendance?
I think it reflects very badly on the IOC.
As an aside it's worth saying, that the UK has changed quite a bit in the last 20 years. If you go back to Euro 96 the attendance at the non England/Scotland games was not good. I reckon if we were hosting the 2018 World Cup, you would be hard pressed to get a ticket - even for the least attractive fixtures.
There are plenty of empty seats at Premiership matches too. Cricket attendances are not good (apart from Ashes and 2020).
In many ways these are televisual rather than crowd events.
Even Test Matches are not sold out outside other than Lords and, sometimes, The Oval.
They aren't at all comparable. Olympics come to a country very rarely.
Exactly. – A country may hold an Olympics once in a generation, it is the nation’s chance to project a good image on the world stage. The UK hosts so many major international sporting events that we may take this aspect for granted. Sadly, the message coming from the people of Rio appears to be ‘why are the Olympics here?’
Comments
Bluntly, I don't like London much - it's an expensive dump - but I think you will find if you look at the externalities rather than just the headline figure your case is a lot less clear cut. I don't object to that because it's part of being one country. I do object to London thinking it is all a question of money. It makes me wonder just how divorced from reality you all are.
Yes, this argument can also be made to a lesser extent for Scotland and Wales - with Wales, remember 10%+ of England's population gets its water from reservoirs in Wales.
London could then have its own version of the Hunger Games to replace the olympics.
"The Hunger Games universe is a dystopia set in
PanemEngland, a country consisting of the wealthy Capitol and 12 districts in varying states of poverty. Every year, children from the districts are selected to participate in a compulsory annual televised death match called The Hunger Games."Mr Meeks could adjudicate as the Lord High Master of the games. I mean just think of the sponsorship and TV deals that could be done.
I was looking through the distances required to win medals in this event and basically for 40 years (excluding the one at attitude) it is always within a very similar range. Most events if you said I can do the time / distance of 40 years ago, that probably isn't not even be good enough for the final these days.
I wonder what it is about the likes of long jump that means human performance hasn't improved.
London would not be the only place in the world that was dependent on others for essential supplies (Britain itself hasn't been self-sufficient in food for many years). It's a bizarre objection really.
That resolves all the issues around London at a stroke - lack of water, power, housing, total separation from the rest of the country etc. by moving half the people to places that do have such things.
Reversing the mistake of William the Conqueror in moving the capital there in the first place and updating the Saxon arrangements to suit the fact that we are no longer just England.
http://www.managementtoday.co.uk/brexit-weakened-britain/any-other-business/article/1401003
Warning, Leavers may find this triggering.
"AlastairMeeks Posts: 10,815 7:29PM April 2016
I continue to expect a clear win for Remain. I predicted 60:40 at the start of the year and that still looks entirely possible to me. "
60%!!!!!!
I hope your husband is getting better, BTW.
The trick is to try to learn from your mistakes.
Mr. Richard, ah, it's been a long time since I read The Iliad. Interesting point. There are many who think gladiatorial combat originated from funeral games (probably duelling prisoners of war).
They're a scary looking bunch, and could throw those Cuban featherweight boxers yards!
Bayley's article is just an extended whine full of irrelevant assertions and non sequiturs.
Though perhaps one closer to the date may well have shifted.
(Pauses while leafing through his prize for winning the PB mayoral contest)
I could imagine your American analogue saying, "We have interests in Manhattan and the Hamptons so we understand both sides of the country."
the 75% of young voters who wanted to Remain have lost opportunities to work and live in 27 different countries.
No - they've lost the automatic *right* not the *opportunity*
when they lose their hated Polish shops, it will mean they have no shops at all since the ethnic British probably lack the enterprise to open them.
So all these ethnic British who lack the enterprise to open a store are all going to get great jobs abroad, right?
It’s a harsh fact that well-educated AB youth and sophisticates like the EU, while C2DE old people with poor qualifications distrust it.
I guess he didn't look at the voting data then
I do not want to live in a country with values defined by an ugly liaison of mendacious opportunistic politicians and unlettered old folk. And nor can I now go to live anywhere sunnier or more optimistic.
Lucky we don't live in a country like that. And he can still move to Greece, Italy or Spain if he wants. I guess youth unemployment isn't an issue to be concerned about.
[It was a pretentious article as a whole as well as being rubbish]
From your bestest mate's article.
"I wonder if Sunderland and Boston realise that when they lose their hated Polish shops, it will mean they have no shops at all since the ethnic British probably lack the enterprise to open them."
Ho, ho, ho. One shouldn't laugh, but I love the sound of Remainers moaning in the morning.
As Mr PB advises, take a chill pill, read about Dr Pangloss, sell your house in Hungary and visit a region in the UK. It's a beautiful country.
And best wishes to you and your spouse.
Attitude obviously helps the long jumpers but altitude (eg Mexico) helps even more - less gravity and less air resistance.
If you think that an alienated underclass is a bad thing, just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite.
London's just a place of business - but we need to understand our clients. The West Country is where our dead are buried.
I can see why there are disputes over spending per head, allocation of cultural sites so predominantly, even given the population/transport links, in London and so on. But hate just seems a bit... odd. As well as being distasteful.
I do hope that sharing my plans has cheered everyone up, and if @TheScreamingEagles and @Theuniondivvie look in later that they were phrased in an appropriately Carry On fashion.
Have a good day all!
http://www.theage.com.au/olympics/news-london-2012/olympic-shotput-champion-is-stripped-of-gold-20120813-2456y.html
There's no point standing among the wreckage open-mouthed. It's time to be clearing away the debris and seeing what we can rebuild.
'Mr Meeks infamous soothsaying. PB's own Nostradamus.
"AlastairMeeks Posts: 10,815 7:29PM April 2016
I continue to expect a clear win for Remain. I predicted 60:40 at the start of the year and that still looks entirely possible to me. "
That's what happens when you are completely divorced from the real world.
- Government and all national bodies would leave for the new capital.
- Aggressive UK Gvt policies would see the creative industries relocate, other than the West End, probably to Manchester. The BBC and ITV would move, leading the others.
- Non-Financial corporate HQs would leave.
- Heathrow would be run down. Where would you put your airport?
- The residual port activity would be moved further down the estuary.
- The Royal Familiy would leave, and with them the related tourism.
This leaves us with the City and an eclectic bunch of other industries within London which would die as the London "brand" diminished (ultimately somewhere would replace the West End for example. All the commuters would stop coming, apart from the most well paid City workers.
Since there would be no British Government to stand behind the banks, investment firms, and pension funds, they too would be diminished over time. The likes of Frankfurt would surely benefit but the UK Government would not stand idle - note that many of these firms have back offices they could relocate "front offices" to in the provinces.
And I haven't even started on the subject of "the EU would never let London join".
These counter factuals are fun aren't they? Good job no one is serious about London independence. Then again, it's suddenly quite tempting..... I wouldn't have to commute, you say?
I have pointed out many times that a large share of the Capitol's GDP is generated by people who live outside its boundaries, who work there but do not live there. Many Londoners also retire elsewhere so their economic activity shows in Devon rather than London. Many companies declare their profits in London for national businesses or even international ones.
So it is rather simplistic to say that London subsidises the provinces to the degree claimed, though I suspect that it does to a degree.
"If you think that an alienated underclass is a bad thing, just wait until you feel the full force of an alienated metropolitan elite."
Now I know you're deliberately taking the piss. A good sign that you're finally recovering.
An alienated metropolitan elite? They'll refuse funds to subsidise the Opera? They'll demonstrate outside Harrods? Or wear an expensively-crafted T-shirt with the words 'Oh, bother, Leavers are extremely naughty'.
Medals table (2012) – current allocations including later reallocations
1. USA 46G, 28S, 29B
2. China 38G, 29S, 19B
3. GB 29G, 17S, 19B
4. Russia 22G, 25S, 32B
5. S Korea 13G, 8S, 7B
Medals table (1992)
1. CIS (=ex-USSR) 45G, 38S, 29B
2. USA 37G, 34S, 37B
3. Germany 33G, 21S, 28B
4. China 16G, 22S, 16B
5. Cuba 14G, 6S, 11B
(13) GB 5G, 3S, 12B
Medals table (1972)
1. USSR 50G, 27S, 22B
2. USA 33G, 31S, 30B
3. E Germany 20G, 23S, 23B
4. W Germany 13G, 11S, 16B
5. Japan 13G, 8S, 8B
(12) GB 4G, 5S, 9B
(DNC) China
Meanwhile, "Eight documents Donald Trump has yet to fully release".
“And I mean, if it is true, that’s OK too because all I have to do is stop funding the Republican Party. I’m the one raising the money for them,” Trump said. “In fact, right now I’m in Orlando. I’m going to a fundraiser for the Republican Party. If they want to do that, they can save me a lot of time and a lot of energy.”
Construction scams in Rio de Janeiro; construction scams in London. It's all bollocks. Putting HMS Ocean in the Thames to protect "the Games" was also bollocks. Running round in circles really fast using drug-enhanced muscles and dressed in a national flag is wow.
Of course no middle class or elite person who watches sport on the television ever gets influenced by the advertising.
[I've just finished re-reading the Matyszak book but it's been a while since I read the sombre Meijer work].
As an aside it's worth saying, that the UK has changed quite a bit in the last 20 years. If you go back to Euro 96 the attendance at the non England/Scotland games was not good. I reckon if we were hosting the 2018 World Cup, you would be hard pressed to get a ticket - even for the least attractive fixtures.
He was a man - I suspect - trapped between what his board and shareholders wanted (rapid growth), and what he feared (a housing collapse). He was not incentivised to run the bank cautiously, and therefore he did not.
Countries bidding for it have all manner of motivations which is why I find Rio's poor attendances so sad. They've also had the WC within the last couple of years, so were clearly on a mission to strut their stuff.
Did you see the docu about one of the DDR female athletes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRrf24MH2SU
Trump praises Priebus, projects unity with RNC
The Politico report is very thin, saying Trump praises Priebus and Priebus says "we’re gonna put him in the White House and save this country together".
Politico reported before the meeting that Trump wanted the RNC to open offices for his campaign in all 50 states.
And yes, you've just seen the EURef vote. If one entity were seen to be ungratefully buggering off with our money to spend on their own pet whims, that is almost certainly the sort of country that rUK would be. Tough.
Hence, better together.
(I'll be with my children obviously.
In many ways these are televisual rather than crowd events.
"Since 1972, roughly 10% of the [Olympic] track and field events resulted in world records and if you look at swimming, we're up close to 40%," says Canadian swimming coach and blogger Rick Madge...
If you watch the video of the 100m dash in 1912, you realise that there are things very similar to what is a 100m sprint today," he says. "But as far as competitive swimming is concerned, the only thing really in common is that you will find humans racing in water."
So why is there such a marked difference? Part of it is that the strokes involved in swimming are far more complex than running and are still evolving, says Madge.
"They involve virtually all parts of the body. And they are moving through water which is so much more dense, which means that everything that you do has to be optimised - your head position, your streamline position with your body, how your arms are above and below the water, how you kick. Those are all things that are very complex. It means that there's lots of room for optimisation..."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37064144
Regarding Athens - there don't seem to be any fans of it on here - I can barely recall it bar all the fuss about it being a mad dash to get it built in the last few days.
What made it so third rate? I did like the laurels.
And belated sympathies to Alastair (I've been pretty sidetracked lately for non-political reasons). It all sounded very distressing and I do hope your partner turns the corner successfully.
Hordes of plebs quaffing champers from plastic flutes and munching on pre-pack M&S fayre. Can't they get cook to rustle up a decent luncheon or if they must a hamper from Fortnum .... the country is going to the dogs !!