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I gather a Tory MP was all over the air waves saying that Theresa May might not be able to get repealing of Grammar schools through the commons. Majority of only 17 blah blah....

I wish the press would report more sensibly.

4 Sinn Feiners don't vote.

11 DUP, UUP and UKIP all dead keen on Grammar Schools.

So majority actually 43.

And thats before any Labour MPs who support grammar schools are taken into account like Mrs Hoey.

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

‏@jessphillips 2h2 hours ago
I dont want to fight for my survival or the survival of Labour anymore, I'm just going to fight for the survival of my constituents

I feel a certain pity, then I remember Gordon Brown.

Remember that her constituents run a Cologne NYE style gauntlet every Saturday night...

She is vile.

SeanT said:

Looking back, the LEAVE campaign was ruthlessly brilliant.

If gongs should go to anyone, it's them.

All the people who were impressed by gongs were clustered around Cameron.

As we have seen since.

The people impressed by power were clustered round Leave. And now they have it.

Well, some of them.

ReggieCide said:

ToryJim said:

Cookie said:

OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.

It's your car. Therefore the music must only be acceptable to you. As Dad you get to inflict your taste on your children

That's not my experience!

I find that you can. If you can hear it over the howls of protest

FrancisUrquhart said:

So far this BBC Brexit thing isn't really very enlightening. Perhaps because us on PB take a lot closer notice of this stuff anyway.

Yes and no. One thing I hadn't noticed was the LEAVE battlebus targeting Labour seats. I know that the UKIP people (other than Farage) have been trying to refocus UKIP to the WWC for some time, but I confess I wasn't keeping track of the bus's itinerary. Does anybody has a link to the route it took?

It's truly remarkable. The Remain campaign were about a month or more behind what was being said on here about how badly the campaign was going, and how it was going to play out point forward.

The Smartest Guys Weren't In The Room.....

Cookie said:

OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.

Try gin.
I think coal miner women used dope on their kids
before they descended for a long shift below.

ReggieCide said:

Thrak said:

Lies get found out. The election isn't the next day after debates and Clinton and, probably, the debate moderators know that they will score highly by taking apart any lie there and then.

You are treating the American people as stupid, imagine if you claimed the same for the UK.

Remaindereds on here certainly seem to think Leavers are stupid, which probably says more about them than the Leavers

The arrogance from certain posters on here was something to behold.

MarqueeMark said:

Mandelson looking bitter, dishevelled - and a bit mad....

He was so suave once upon a time.

Perhaps he was just off a flight where he didn't get the A1 seat in first class...

Charles said:

ReggieCide said:

ToryJim said:

Cookie said:

OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.

It's your car. Therefore the music must only be acceptable to you. As Dad you get to inflict your taste on your children

That's not my experience!

I find that you can. If you can hear it over the howls of protest

Are you sure it's not them singing along? It depends upon their ages I suppose. I got to quite like Wally Whyton!

Cookie said:

OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.

At that age nothing works better than repetition, and singalong is good.

I brought Foxjr up on Northern Soul. Short songs that bear repetition with catchy hooks.

(Dolly Parton and Dusty Springfield too)

HYUFD said:

Thrak said:

Looking at individual polls is foolish, US elections are best predicted by poll averages, both nationally and statewide, and RCP, 538 and pollster all give between a seven and eight point lead. What is with this 'the polls are level' malarkey (to paraphrase Joe Biden)?

The debates have not even begun yet and of course the poll average in EUref was not right

Why are you trying to convince people despite current evidence and each bit of evidence that we are consistently getting? Trying to make any comparison with Brexit is also pointless.

MarqueeMark said:

Will Straw was fobbed off by Corbyn for six months before he got a meeting to talk about the Referendum...

Hur hur hur!

LOL. No surprises that he could not get a meeting set up when he has no real world experience. Most probably sent a couple of polite emails and gave up.

TCPoliticalBetting said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

So far this BBC Brexit thing isn't really very enlightening. Perhaps because us on PB take a lot closer notice of this stuff anyway.

Agreed. After 45 minutes a very shallow programme. No analysis of information from the polling. No mention of the plummeting ratings of Cameron and the fact that he continued to front the REMAIN campaign alongside Osborne whose ratings were in the gutter. A programme built around the head shots that they had filmed with some of the players. Glib, insubstantive material. A poor job by Kuenssberg.

But then I guess we aren't the target market for this programme.

SeanT said:

Anna Soubry is still crying

Ahhh diddums!

The good people of Broxtowe would have been better off voting for Nick Palmer, than this dripping wet Europhile excuse for a Conservative.

MarqueeMark said:

It's truly remarkable. The Remain campaign were about a month or more behind what was being said on here about how badly the campaign was going, and how it was going to play out point forward.

The Smartest Guys Weren't In The Room.....

Remain's campaign was remarkably tone deaf. Lectures from foreign leaders, endless bankers and business men threatening to up sticks, BS forecasts, and fronted by people that most members of the public would like to thump. I don't think Leave was all that competent, fortunately remain were a giant bunch of chumps.

Sandpit said:

SeanT said:

Anna Soubry is still crying

Ahhh diddums!

The good people of Broxtowe would have been better off voting for Nick Palmer, than this dripping wet Europhile excuse for a Conservative.

Nick is an even bigger europhile.

Pro EU labour are going to have fun selling their message in places like Sunderland.

foxinsoxuk said:

rcs1000 said:

Speedy said:

rcs1000 said:

Speedy said:

MP_SE said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

rcs1000 said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Good to see the EU governments are quite happy to import North Korean slave labour.

?

Dispatches are running a bizzare story of Poland and Malta employing north Korean slave labour with full knowledge and permission of the government. Apparently Kim Jung nutso is making a £1bn exporting slave labour around the world including to some EU countries.

So much for the EU protecting workers' rights. Turns out they make use of slave labour.

Well immigration is a kind of modern day slavery.

Lol

Well it is.
Most immigrants (especially the illegal ones )have fewer or almost no rights and are payed meager wages, and the immigration trade in the middle east looks like the slave trade.

Also immigrants are employed for the same reasons slaves were, as cheap labour, and tend to be abused by their employers too.

Dude. It's a laughable comparison.

Of course it is.

A master has financial investment in his/her slaves and loses a tangible asset if they die. A capitalist does not care if his unskilled workers die as he can get more.

Marxism 101

Don't forget Walmart et al took out insurance on their dying shopfloor staff and their families got nothing.

Sandpit said:

SeanT said:

Anna Soubry is still crying

Ahhh diddums!

The good people of Broxtowe would have been better off voting for Nick Palmer, than this dripping wet Europhile excuse for a Conservative.

That's a POTUS kinda question - anyone got a coin?

SeanT said:

MaxPB said:

SeanT said:

Anna Soubry is still crying

Confirmation we made the right decision.

As time goes on I am increasingly sure we made the right decision. I'd be feeling sick now if I'd voted REMAIN, on selfish grounds.

I don't care if Brexit costs 10% of GDP (which it won't, nowhere near). We regained our soul as a sovereign nation. That's more important.

Have you suffered from the massive drop in London property prices yet? Something that is just not happening.

The most perceptive comment was from Gisela Stuart that we need some politicians with a historical perspective on how we got to this point and they are in short supply.

SeanT said:

Looking back, the LEAVE campaign was ruthlessly brilliant.

If gongs should go to anyone, it's them.

It has to be said that a win's a win, and a campaign that wins is a campaign that wins. And LEAVE did demonstrate good technique: it tried various messages with a rapid turnover, abandoning those that did not work, focussing those that did, and using focus groups to identify which were which. So its methodology was good.

There were other things which the program aren't focussing on. The use of loans from Aaron Banks[1] in the last few weeks extended about £5-10 million to LEAVE, and LEAVE were able to advertise in the last few weeks in the purdah period which REMAIN couldn't. The refusal of Cameron to authorise attack ads against Boris. The Clarke/Goodwin/Whitely analysis of the polls saying that LEAVE was always in the lead

So this program is good, albeit a bit shallow and with some holes. But for a hour-long documentary, it's pretty good.

[1] It's unfair to single him out, but a list is outside the scope of this reply.

Cookie said:

OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.

Helen Love.

Sandpit said:

MaxPB said:

Sandpit said:

SeanT said:

Anna Soubry is still crying

Ahhh diddums!

The good people of Broxtowe would have been better off voting for Nick Palmer, than this dripping wet Europhile excuse for a Conservative.

Nick is an even bigger europhile.

But at least he's a nice guy. Soubry is just a shouty sourpuss.
Add me to the Tories for Palmer club!

No, he is a duplicitous Marxist. His support for Corbyn despite the obvious harassment by his supporters of Labour MPs.

glw said:

MarqueeMark said:

It's truly remarkable. The Remain campaign were about a month or more behind what was being said on here about how badly the campaign was going, and how it was going to play out point forward.

The Smartest Guys Weren't In The Room.....

Remain's campaign was remarkably tone deaf. Lectures from foreign leaders, endless bankers and business men threatening to up sticks, BS forecasts, and fronted by people that most members of the public would like to thump. I don't think Leave was all that competent, fortunately remain were a giant bunch of chumps.

It was the German lady who did it!

Thrak said:

HYUFD said:

Thrak said:

Looking at individual polls is foolish, US elections are best predicted by poll averages, both nationally and statewide, and RCP, 538 and pollster all give between a seven and eight point lead. What is with this 'the polls are level' malarkey (to paraphrase Joe Biden)?

The debates have not even begun yet and of course the poll average in EUref was not right

Why are you trying to convince people despite current evidence and each bit of evidence that we are consistently getting? Trying to make any comparison with Brexit is also pointless.

Trump, like Brexit, is in tune with the spirit of the times. He's the insurgent. It doesn't follow that he's bound to win, but he has a fair chance.

viewcode said:

The refusal of Cameron to authorise attack ads against Boris.

I said at the time that Remain should have gone for Boris and Gove in the style of Trump and ruthlessly attacked them personally - goofy Gove and bonkers Boris. In retrospect Gove was even more vulnerable to this than I realised.

SeanT said:

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.

The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.

The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.

I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.

The planets just aligned perfectly for Leave. Immigration and fear of foreigners was the killer issue.

FrancisUrquhart said:

I wonder if Cameron had still had coulson rather than posh dr dre as his spin doctor if he would have woken up sooner to the problems of remain campaign?

Almost certainly. There was a reason Cameron burned a lot of political capital in getting Coulson into No.10 in the first place, and wasn't happy when the scandal blew up again - the former tabloid editor was very good indeed at reading the general mood among people, Cameron knew that Coulson could connect with the people that the PM couldn't.

MaxPB said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.

The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.

The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.

I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.

It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.

The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.

It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.

Corbyn delivered a turgid, rambling speech tonight to the credulous, complete with petty digs at the media, the PLP and his rival for the leadership.

It was almost back to the 1960s stuff, with the removal of all privatisations, the restoration of collective bargaining and peace for the world. All it needed was the great man handing out bottles of cola and trying to teach the crowd to sing in perfect harmony.

I am sorry to say that the other speakers were equally dreadful. The crowd were also hectored by a strident 14 year old. One of the local councillors highlighted attacks on refugees citing an attack with an icecream on a baby.

SeanT said:

MaxPB said:

SeanT said:

Anna Soubry is still crying

Confirmation we made the right decision.

As time goes on I am increasingly sure we made the right decision. I'd be feeling sick now if I'd voted REMAIN, on selfish grounds.

I don't care if Brexit costs 10% of GDP (which it won't, nowhere near). We regained our soul as a sovereign nation. That's more important.

Yes, completely agreed. The more people I talk to the more resilient I have realised the UK is as well. Some were saying that the FinTech industry would all decamp to Berlin within weeks, yet a cousin of mine has just had a mega job offer from a FinTech company in London with an assurance that they won't be going to Berlin or any other EU nations even if we aren't in the single market. Many are now looking at Asia goe growth and relishing the opportunity that it will bring given the relatively lax regulations in Asian markets compared to the EU.

Dadge said:

MaxPB said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.

The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.

The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.

I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.

It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.

The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.

It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.

I don't think it would have made a difference, unless they reanimated the corpses of Churchill and Maggie and got them to campaign for Remain they wouldn't have won.

Sandpit said:

On the subject of the referendum, someone has kindly uploaded the whole 10 hour BBC coverage program to YouTube. Gets popcorn.
h ttps://youtu.be/1TmUP1StPf0

Oh, bless you, thank you.

TCPoliticalBetting said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

I wonder if Cameron had still had coulson rather than posh dr dre as his spin doctor if he would have woken up sooner to the problems of remain campaign?

True. Was it the Guardian who won it for LEAVE?

Coulson would have come up with a way for Dave to weasel out of the referendum tbh.

Dadge said:

MaxPB said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.

The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.

The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.

I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.

It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.

The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.

It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.

In retrospect Alan Johnson would have been better (although he led the official campaign he did not lead the unofficial campaign), working class background, Labour but Blairite enough not to turn off Tories. However I doubt it would have changed the result

TCPoliticalBetting said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Pro EU labour are going to have fun selling their message in places like Sunderland.

Very true and in places such as Wales. Labour have forgotten who their voters are.

I think Labour have to write the EU off as an issue, and go with the Brexit flow.

MaxPB said:

Dadge said:

MaxPB said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.

The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.

The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.

I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.

It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.

The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.

It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.

I don't think it would have made a difference, unless they reanimated the corpses of Churchill and Maggie and got them to campaign for Remain they wouldn't have won.

That's going too far. If Cameron had called Boris before calling the referendum and said, "I'll back you for the leadership if you win the campaign for Remain," it would have been enough to swing it.

williamglenn said:

In particular, Cameron resigning before triggering Article 50 was a masterstroke of diplomacy and negotiation. He truly did serve the national interest in that moment.

And completely shaft the Brexiteers at the same time.

SeanT said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.

The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.

The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.

I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.

It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.

I once agreed; I no longer believe this. All campaigns are a bit shit when you examine them, as they happen.

With some perspective, LEAVE played it brilliantly; from the red buses and bunting designed to hook in Labour voters, to the dual LEAVE strategy of nasty cop Farage and nice cop Boris, to the timing of the best memes - LEAVE paced it judiciously, e.g. going for "points system" when it really mattered.

And LEAVE made far fewer ghastly blunders, whereas REMAIN made loads.

Given the odds and armies arrayed against them, I'd say LEAVE's performance was exemplary.

Victory makes all things right. Leaving our heavy artillery of immigration until after purdah began was sound. Remain fired off all their heavy artillery when the campaign began, and suffered from diminishing returns.

It may seem trivial, but using red as the official colour was an excellent decision.

Labour Leave (for whom I did a lot of deliveries) had great propaganda too. We worked out the bits of Luton where we should deliver left wing leave flyers, and those parts where we delivered right wing Leave flyers.

SeanT said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.

The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.

The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.

I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.

It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.

I once agreed; I no longer believe this. All campaigns are a bit shit when you examine them, as they happen.

With some perspective, LEAVE played it brilliantly; from the red buses and bunting designed to hook in Labour voters, to the dual LEAVE strategy of nasty cop Farage and nice cop Boris, to the timing of the best memes - LEAVE paced it judiciously, e.g. going for "points system" when it really mattered.

And LEAVE made far fewer ghastly blunders, whereas REMAIN made loads.

Given the odds and armies arrayed against them, I'd say LEAVE's performance was exemplary.

VOTE LEAVE adopting red as its colour to appeal to Labour voters was very smart.

williamglenn said:

MaxPB said:

Dadge said:

MaxPB said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.

The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.

The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.

I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.

It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.

The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.

It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.

I don't think it would have made a difference, unless they reanimated the corpses of Churchill and Maggie and got them to campaign for Remain they wouldn't have won.

That's going too far. If Cameron had called Boris before calling the referendum and said, "I'll back you for the leadership if you win the campaign for Remain," it would have been enough to swing it.

Nah. I don't think BoJo is that popular in Hartlepool and South Wales.

On the consequences, it is a bit early to tell. We are in the phoney war stage where nothing has yet changed.

TCPoliticalBetting said:

SeanT said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.

The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.

The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.

I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.

It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.

I once agreed; I no longer believe this. All campaigns are a bit shit when you examine them, as they happen.

With some perspective, LEAVE played it brilliantly; from the red buses and bunting designed to hook in Labour voters, to the dual LEAVE strategy of nasty cop Farage and nice cop Boris, to the timing of the best memes - LEAVE paced it judiciously, e.g. going for "points system" when it really mattered.

And LEAVE made far fewer ghastly blunders, whereas REMAIN made loads.

Given the odds and armies arrayed against them, I'd say LEAVE's performance was exemplary.

VOTE LEAVE adopting red as its colour to appeal to Labour voters was very smart.

Red is the colour of winning as well.

HYUFD said:

Dadge said:

MaxPB said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.

The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.

The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.

I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.

It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.

The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.

It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.

In retrospect Alan Johnson would have been better (although he led the official campaign he did not lead the unofficial campaign), working class background, Labour but Blairite enough not to turn off Tories. However I doubt it would have changed the result

Referendums usually become referendums on the government, or at least those who are proposing it.

That's how Wilson won his, and Clegg and Cameron lost theirs.

By voting day Cameron had crashed to Gordon Brown levels and Osborne even lower.
The result was baked in months earlier when Cameron failed at his renegotiation.

williamglenn said:

MaxPB said:

SeanT said:

MaxPB said:

SeanT said:

Anna Soubry is still crying

Confirmation we made the right decision.

As time goes on I am increasingly sure we made the right decision. I'd be feeling sick now if I'd voted REMAIN, on selfish grounds.

I don't care if Brexit costs 10% of GDP (which it won't, nowhere near). We regained our soul as a sovereign nation. That's more important.

Yes, completely agreed. The more people I talk to the more resilient I have realised the UK is as well.

So far we've demonstrated political resilience rather than economic resilience. I'm still a staunch Remainer but the way the British state, and the Conservative party got its act together so quickly after the referendum was seriously impressive. In particular, Cameron resigning before triggering Article 50 was a masterstroke of diplomacy and negotiation. He truly did serve the national interest in that moment.

Economically resilient as well. Much more than I expected.

Speedy said:

HYUFD said:

Dadge said:

MaxPB said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.

The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.

The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.

I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.

It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.

The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.

It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.

In retrospect Alan Johnson would have been better (although he led the official campaign he did not lead the unofficial campaign), working class background, Labour but Blairite enough not to turn off Tories. However I doubt it would have changed the result

Referendums usually become referendums on the government, or at least those who are proposing it.

That's how Wilson won his, and Clegg and Cameron lost theirs.

By voting day Cameron had crashed to Gordon Brown levels and Osborne even lower.
The result was baked in months earlier when Cameron failed at his renegotiation.

He won Scotland though, Blair would not have won a Euro referendum even when his popularity was in the stratosphere

SeanT said:

Boris is surprisingly popular with the WWC. The most unexpected people I meet are fans of the Bozza.

And the BBC docu just confirmed it - those little old northern ladies loved him.

I'm not sure WHY he is liked, but he is.

I think it's simply because he doesn't exude fatalism. So many managerial politicians project a sense that this is as good as it gets and if you don't like it, you need re-educating.

williamglenn said:

viewcode said:

The refusal of Cameron to authorise attack ads against Boris.

I said at the time that Remain should have gone for Boris and Gove in the style of Trump and ruthlessly attacked them personally - goofy Gove and bonkers Boris. In retrospect Gove was even more vulnerable to this than I realised.

There was an article in the Times that said somebody mocked up a Boris-In-Putin-Pocket ad, and Cameron vetoed it. Facepalm.

williamglenn said:

MaxPB said:

Dadge said:

MaxPB said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.

The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.

The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.

I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.

It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.

The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.

It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.

I don't think it would have made a difference, unless they reanimated the corpses of Churchill and Maggie and got them to campaign for Remain they wouldn't have won.

That's going too far. If Cameron had called Boris before calling the referendum and said, "I'll back you for the leadership if you win the campaign for Remain," it would have been enough to swing it.

The problem for the Remain campaign was having too many posh boys, not too few.