I gather a Tory MP was all over the air waves saying that Theresa May might not be able to get repealing of Grammar schools through the commons. Majority of only 17 blah blah....
I wish the press would report more sensibly.
4 Sinn Feiners don't vote.
11 DUP, UUP and UKIP all dead keen on Grammar Schools.
So majority actually 43.
And thats before any Labour MPs who support grammar schools are taken into account like Mrs Hoey.
Looking at individual polls is foolish, US elections are best predicted by poll averages, both nationally and statewide, and RCP, 538 and pollster all give between a seven and eight point lead. What is with this 'the polls are level' malarkey (to paraphrase Joe Biden)?
The debates have not even begun yet and of course the poll average in EUref was not right
@jessphillips 2h2 hours ago I dont want to fight for my survival or the survival of Labour anymore, I'm just going to fight for the survival of my constituents
I feel a certain pity, then I remember Gordon Brown.
Remember that her constituents run a Cologne NYE style gauntlet every Saturday night...
@jessphillips 2h2 hours ago I dont want to fight for my survival or the survival of Labour anymore, I'm just going to fight for the survival of my constituents
[snip]
She's only been an MP since 2015 ? - I wonder how those like Ma Beckett must feel...
Or indeed Harriet Harman who bears more blame than anyone for Corbyn being elected in 2015.
Evening Justin - Harriet Harman is probably a better example, she’s more, what I’d call centre progressive. – Ma Beckett’s been around since year dot and seen it all before.
OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.
It's your car. Therefore the music must only be acceptable to you. As Dad you get to inflict your taste on your children
That's not my experience!
I find that you can. If you can hear it over the howls of protest
Good to see the EU governments are quite happy to import North Korean slave labour.
?
Dispatches are running a bizzare story of Poland and Malta employing north Korean slave labour with full knowledge and permission of the government. Apparently Kim Jung nutso is making a £1bn exporting slave labour around the world including to some EU countries.
So much for the EU protecting workers' rights. Turns out they make use of slave labour.
Well immigration is a kind of modern day slavery.
Lol
Well it is. Most immigrants (especially the illegal ones )have fewer or almost no rights and are payed meager wages, and the immigration trade in the middle east looks like the slave trade.
Also immigrants are employed for the same reasons slaves were, as cheap labour, and tend to be abused by their employers too.
Dude. It's a laughable comparison.
Of course it is.
A master has financial investment in his/her slaves and loses a tangible asset if they die. A capitalist does not care if his unskilled workers die as he can get more.
So far this BBC Brexit thing isn't really very enlightening. Perhaps because us on PB take a lot closer notice of this stuff anyway.
Yes and no. One thing I hadn't noticed was the LEAVE battlebus targeting Labour seats. I know that the UKIP people (other than Farage) have been trying to refocus UKIP to the WWC for some time, but I confess I wasn't keeping track of the bus's itinerary. Does anybody has a link to the route it took?
So far this BBC Brexit thing isn't really very enlightening. Perhaps because us on PB take a lot closer notice of this stuff anyway.
Yes and no. One thing I hadn't noticed was the LEAVE battlebus targeting Labour seats. I know that the UKIP people (other than Farage) have been trying to refocus UKIP to the WWC for some time, but I confess I wasn't keeping track of the bus's itinerary. Does anybody has a link to the route it took?
Good point. The admittance that they deliberately made the bus red as well to attract those that naturally stick their cross next to anything red as well, is obvious, but interesting.
It's truly remarkable. The Remain campaign were about a month or more behind what was being said on here about how badly the campaign was going, and how it was going to play out point forward.
OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.
Try gin. I think coal miner women used dope on their kids before they descended for a long shift below.
It's truly remarkable. The Remain campaign were about a month or more behind what was being said on here about how badly the campaign was going, and how it was going to play out point forward.
The Smartest Guys Weren't In The Room.....
Who took the decision to put Will Straw in charge? It's as clear as day that he wasn't up to it.
Lies get found out. The election isn't the next day after debates and Clinton and, probably, the debate moderators know that they will score highly by taking apart any lie there and then.
You are treating the American people as stupid, imagine if you claimed the same for the UK.
Remaindereds on here certainly seem to think Leavers are stupid, which probably says more about them than the Leavers
The arrogance from certain posters on here was something to behold.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.
It's your car. Therefore the music must only be acceptable to you. As Dad you get to inflict your taste on your children
That's not my experience!
I find that you can. If you can hear it over the howls of protest
Are you sure it's not them singing along? It depends upon their ages I suppose. I got to quite like Wally Whyton!
OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.
At that age nothing works better than repetition, and singalong is good.
I brought Foxjr up on Northern Soul. Short songs that bear repetition with catchy hooks.
OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.
At that age nothing works better than repetition, and singalong is good.
I brought Foxjr up on Northern Soul. Short songs that bear repetition with catchy hooks.
Looking at individual polls is foolish, US elections are best predicted by poll averages, both nationally and statewide, and RCP, 538 and pollster all give between a seven and eight point lead. What is with this 'the polls are level' malarkey (to paraphrase Joe Biden)?
The debates have not even begun yet and of course the poll average in EUref was not right
Why are you trying to convince people despite current evidence and each bit of evidence that we are consistently getting? Trying to make any comparison with Brexit is also pointless.
So far this BBC Brexit thing isn't really very enlightening. Perhaps because us on PB take a lot closer notice of this stuff anyway.
Agreed. After 45 minutes a very shallow programme. No analysis of information from the polling. No mention of the plummeting ratings of Cameron and the fact that he continued to front the REMAIN campaign alongside Osborne whose ratings were in the gutter. A programme built around the head shots that they had filmed with some of the players. Glib, insubstantive material. A poor job by Kuenssberg.
Will Straw was fobbed off by Corbyn for six months before he got a meeting to talk about the Referendum...
Hur hur hur!
LOL. No surprises that he could not get a meeting set up when he has no real world experience. Most probably sent a couple of polite emails and gave up.
So far this BBC Brexit thing isn't really very enlightening. Perhaps because us on PB take a lot closer notice of this stuff anyway.
Agreed. After 45 minutes a very shallow programme. No analysis of information from the polling. No mention of the plummeting ratings of Cameron and the fact that he continued to front the REMAIN campaign alongside Osborne whose ratings were in the gutter. A programme built around the head shots that they had filmed with some of the players. Glib, insubstantive material. A poor job by Kuenssberg.
But then I guess we aren't the target market for this programme.
It's truly remarkable. The Remain campaign were about a month or more behind what was being said on here about how badly the campaign was going, and how it was going to play out point forward.
The Smartest Guys Weren't In The Room.....
Remain's campaign was remarkably tone deaf. Lectures from foreign leaders, endless bankers and business men threatening to up sticks, BS forecasts, and fronted by people that most members of the public would like to thump. I don't think Leave was all that competent, fortunately remain were a giant bunch of chumps.
@North_Socialist: Bye bye Blairites, There's the door, Bye bye Blairites, Cross the floor, Bye bye Blairites, Go away, Bye bye Blairites, It's a new day!
Good to see the EU governments are quite happy to import North Korean slave labour.
?
Dispatches are running a bizzare story of Poland and Malta employing north Korean slave labour with full knowledge and permission of the government. Apparently Kim Jung nutso is making a £1bn exporting slave labour around the world including to some EU countries.
So much for the EU protecting workers' rights. Turns out they make use of slave labour.
Well immigration is a kind of modern day slavery.
Lol
Well it is. Most immigrants (especially the illegal ones )have fewer or almost no rights and are payed meager wages, and the immigration trade in the middle east looks like the slave trade.
Also immigrants are employed for the same reasons slaves were, as cheap labour, and tend to be abused by their employers too.
Dude. It's a laughable comparison.
Of course it is.
A master has financial investment in his/her slaves and loses a tangible asset if they die. A capitalist does not care if his unskilled workers die as he can get more.
Marxism 101
Don't forget Walmart et al took out insurance on their dying shopfloor staff and their families got nothing.
I wonder if Cameron had still had coulson rather than posh dr dre as his spin doctor if he would have woken up sooner to the problems of remain campaign?
The most perceptive comment was from Gisela Stuart that we need some politicians with a historical perspective on how we got to this point and they are in short supply.
Looking at individual polls is foolish, US elections are best predicted by poll averages, both nationally and statewide, and RCP, 538 and pollster all give between a seven and eight point lead. What is with this 'the polls are level' malarkey (to paraphrase Joe Biden)?
The debates have not even begun yet and of course the poll average in EUref was not right
Why are you trying to convince people despite current evidence and each bit of evidence that we are consistently getting? Trying to make any comparison with Brexit is also pointless.
We shall see on election night, most pundits thought Remain would win up until then too, much as they think Hillary will win in November. However as tonight's programme showed it was largely a bigger than expected turnout of the white working class fed up with the establishment and immigration that won it for Leave and they are exactly Trump's target demographic! I still think Hillary will narrowly win but Trump is certainly not out of it yet.
Looking back, the LEAVE campaign was ruthlessly brilliant.
If gongs should go to anyone, it's them.
It has to be said that a win's a win, and a campaign that wins is a campaign that wins. And LEAVE did demonstrate good technique: it tried various messages with a rapid turnover, abandoning those that did not work, focussing those that did, and using focus groups to identify which were which. So its methodology was good.
There were other things which the program aren't focussing on. The use of loans from Aaron Banks[1] in the last few weeks extended about £5-10 million to LEAVE, and LEAVE were able to advertise in the last few weeks in the purdah period which REMAIN couldn't. The refusal of Cameron to authorise attack ads against Boris. The Clarke/Goodwin/Whitely analysis of the polls saying that LEAVE was always in the lead
So this program is good, albeit a bit shallow and with some holes. But for a hour-long documentary, it's pretty good.
[1] It's unfair to single him out, but a list is outside the scope of this reply.
OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
It's truly remarkable. The Remain campaign were about a month or more behind what was being said on here about how badly the campaign was going, and how it was going to play out point forward.
The Smartest Guys Weren't In The Room.....
Remain's campaign was remarkably tone deaf. Lectures from foreign leaders, endless bankers and business men threatening to up sticks, BS forecasts, and fronted by people that most members of the public would like to thump. I don't think Leave was all that competent, fortunately remain were a giant bunch of chumps.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.
Looking at individual polls is foolish, US elections are best predicted by poll averages, both nationally and statewide, and RCP, 538 and pollster all give between a seven and eight point lead. What is with this 'the polls are level' malarkey (to paraphrase Joe Biden)?
The debates have not even begun yet and of course the poll average in EUref was not right
Why are you trying to convince people despite current evidence and each bit of evidence that we are consistently getting? Trying to make any comparison with Brexit is also pointless.
Trump, like Brexit, is in tune with the spirit of the times. He's the insurgent. It doesn't follow that he's bound to win, but he has a fair chance.
The refusal of Cameron to authorise attack ads against Boris.
I said at the time that Remain should have gone for Boris and Gove in the style of Trump and ruthlessly attacked them personally - goofy Gove and bonkers Boris. In retrospect Gove was even more vulnerable to this than I realised.
Looking back, the LEAVE campaign was ruthlessly brilliant.
If gongs should go to anyone, it's them.
That's the thing tho I don't think they were THAT good, its just that the E.U is hopelessly crap. I think someone on here said the remain campaign was shit because the E.U is shit.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
The planets just aligned perfectly for Leave. Immigration and fear of foreigners was the killer issue.
I wonder if Cameron had still had coulson rather than posh dr dre as his spin doctor if he would have woken up sooner to the problems of remain campaign?
Almost certainly. There was a reason Cameron burned a lot of political capital in getting Coulson into No.10 in the first place, and wasn't happy when the scandal blew up again - the former tabloid editor was very good indeed at reading the general mood among people, Cameron knew that Coulson could connect with the people that the PM couldn't.
It's truly remarkable. The Remain campaign were about a month or more behind what was being said on here about how badly the campaign was going, and how it was going to play out point forward.
The Smartest Guys Weren't In The Room.....
To be fair it was only us guys below the line who were pointing out how bad REMAIN was doung, from an early start
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
Alistair Meeks, to be fair, was not arguing that Remain were waltzing it, for some weeks prior to 23rd June. He was livid about the success of Leave.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.
It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.
On the subject of the referendum, someone has kindly uploaded the whole 10 hour BBC coverage program to YouTube. Gets popcorn. https://youtu.be/1TmUP1StPf0
Corbyn delivered a turgid, rambling speech tonight to the credulous, complete with petty digs at the media, the PLP and his rival for the leadership.
It was almost back to the 1960s stuff, with the removal of all privatisations, the restoration of collective bargaining and peace for the world. All it needed was the great man handing out bottles of cola and trying to teach the crowd to sing in perfect harmony.
I am sorry to say that the other speakers were equally dreadful. The crowd were also hectored by a strident 14 year old. One of the local councillors highlighted attacks on refugees citing an attack with an icecream on a baby.
I wonder if Cameron had still had coulson rather than posh dr dre as his spin doctor if he would have woken up sooner to the problems of remain campaign?
As time goes on I am increasingly sure we made the right decision. I'd be feeling sick now if I'd voted REMAIN, on selfish grounds.
I don't care if Brexit costs 10% of GDP (which it won't, nowhere near). We regained our soul as a sovereign nation. That's more important.
Yes, completely agreed. The more people I talk to the more resilient I have realised the UK is as well. Some were saying that the FinTech industry would all decamp to Berlin within weeks, yet a cousin of mine has just had a mega job offer from a FinTech company in London with an assurance that they won't be going to Berlin or any other EU nations even if we aren't in the single market. Many are now looking at Asia goe growth and relishing the opportunity that it will bring given the relatively lax regulations in Asian markets compared to the EU.
It's truly remarkable. The Remain campaign were about a month or more behind what was being said on here about how badly the campaign was going, and how it was going to play out point forward.
The Smartest Guys Weren't In The Room.....
To be fair it was only us guys below the line who were pointing out how bad REMAIN was doung, from an early start
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
To be fair, TSE put up some really good posts suggesting Remain didn't have it in the bag. And I penned a couple too - my first foray into blogging on here!
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.
It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.
I don't think it would have made a difference, unless they reanimated the corpses of Churchill and Maggie and got them to campaign for Remain they wouldn't have won.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.
It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.
On the subject of the referendum, someone has kindly uploaded the whole 10 hour BBC coverage program to YouTube. Gets popcorn. h ttps://youtu.be/1TmUP1StPf0
OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.
I wonder if Cameron had still had coulson rather than posh dr dre as his spin doctor if he would have woken up sooner to the problems of remain campaign?
True. Was it the Guardian who won it for LEAVE?
Coulson would have come up with a way for Dave to weasel out of the referendum tbh.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.
It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.
In retrospect Alan Johnson would have been better (although he led the official campaign he did not lead the unofficial campaign), working class background, Labour but Blairite enough not to turn off Tories. However I doubt it would have changed the result
As time goes on I am increasingly sure we made the right decision. I'd be feeling sick now if I'd voted REMAIN, on selfish grounds.
I don't care if Brexit costs 10% of GDP (which it won't, nowhere near). We regained our soul as a sovereign nation. That's more important.
Yes, completely agreed. The more people I talk to the more resilient I have realised the UK is as well.
So far we've demonstrated political resilience rather than economic resilience. I'm still a staunch Remainer but the way the British state, and the Conservative party got its act together so quickly after the referendum was seriously impressive. In particular, Cameron resigning before triggering Article 50 was a masterstroke of diplomacy and negotiation. He truly did serve the national interest in that moment.
It's truly remarkable. The Remain campaign were about a month or more behind what was being said on here about how badly the campaign was going, and how it was going to play out point forward.
The Smartest Guys Weren't In The Room.....
To be fair it was only us guys below the line who were pointing out how bad REMAIN was doung, from an early start
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
To be fair, TSE put up some really good posts suggesting Remain didn't have it in the bag. And I penned a couple too - my first foray into blogging on here!
In one period from 18th to 27th April there were 3 articles favourable to LEAVE and 8 favourable to REMAIN. 5 other articles were more neutral.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.
It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.
I don't think it would have made a difference, unless they reanimated the corpses of Churchill and Maggie and got them to campaign for Remain they wouldn't have won.
That's going too far. If Cameron had called Boris before calling the referendum and said, "I'll back you for the leadership if you win the campaign for Remain," it would have been enough to swing it.
Pro EU labour are going to have fun selling their message in places like Sunderland.
Very true and in places such as Wales. Labour have forgotten who their voters are.
I think Labour have to write the EU off as an issue, and go with the Brexit flow.
Then they lose their membership, London and some of the larger cities. Their electoral base is now like chalk and cheese. One despises the other. Quite how they've arrived at this position, Lord only knows. Time for the posh word of the day: Labour are in zugzwang.
In particular, Cameron resigning before triggering Article 50 was a masterstroke of diplomacy and negotiation. He truly did serve the national interest in that moment.
And completely shaft the Brexiteers at the same time.
Looking at individual polls is foolish, US elections are best predicted by poll averages, both nationally and statewide, and RCP, 538 and pollster all give between a seven and eight point lead. What is with this 'the polls are level' malarkey (to paraphrase Joe Biden)?
The debates have not even begun yet and of course the poll average in EUref was not right
Why are you trying to convince people despite current evidence and each bit of evidence that we are consistently getting? Trying to make any comparison with Brexit is also pointless.
Trump, like Brexit, is in tune with the spirit of the times. He's the insurgent. It doesn't follow that he's bound to win, but he has a fair chance.
Indeed, saying Hillary has it in the bag in August is ridiculous, just over 3 months before EU ref Remain had a 15% lead
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
I once agreed; I no longer believe this. All campaigns are a bit shit when you examine them, as they happen.
With some perspective, LEAVE played it brilliantly; from the red buses and bunting designed to hook in Labour voters, to the dual LEAVE strategy of nasty cop Farage and nice cop Boris, to the timing of the best memes - LEAVE paced it judiciously, e.g. going for "points system" when it really mattered.
And LEAVE made far fewer ghastly blunders, whereas REMAIN made loads.
Given the odds and armies arrayed against them, I'd say LEAVE's performance was exemplary.
Victory makes all things right. Leaving our heavy artillery of immigration until after purdah began was sound. Remain fired off all their heavy artillery when the campaign began, and suffered from diminishing returns.
It may seem trivial, but using red as the official colour was an excellent decision.
Labour Leave (for whom I did a lot of deliveries) had great propaganda too. We worked out the bits of Luton where we should deliver left wing leave flyers, and those parts where we delivered right wing Leave flyers.
OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
I once agreed; I no longer believe this. All campaigns are a bit shit when you examine them, as they happen.
With some perspective, LEAVE played it brilliantly; from the red buses and bunting designed to hook in Labour voters, to the dual LEAVE strategy of nasty cop Farage and nice cop Boris, to the timing of the best memes - LEAVE paced it judiciously, e.g. going for "points system" when it really mattered.
And LEAVE made far fewer ghastly blunders, whereas REMAIN made loads.
Given the odds and armies arrayed against them, I'd say LEAVE's performance was exemplary.
VOTE LEAVE adopting red as its colour to appeal to Labour voters was very smart.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.
It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.
I don't think it would have made a difference, unless they reanimated the corpses of Churchill and Maggie and got them to campaign for Remain they wouldn't have won.
That's going too far. If Cameron had called Boris before calling the referendum and said, "I'll back you for the leadership if you win the campaign for Remain," it would have been enough to swing it.
Nah. I don't think BoJo is that popular in Hartlepool and South Wales.
On the consequences, it is a bit early to tell. We are in the phoney war stage where nothing has yet changed.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
I once agreed; I no longer believe this. All campaigns are a bit shit when you examine them, as they happen.
With some perspective, LEAVE played it brilliantly; from the red buses and bunting designed to hook in Labour voters, to the dual LEAVE strategy of nasty cop Farage and nice cop Boris, to the timing of the best memes - LEAVE paced it judiciously, e.g. going for "points system" when it really mattered.
And LEAVE made far fewer ghastly blunders, whereas REMAIN made loads.
Given the odds and armies arrayed against them, I'd say LEAVE's performance was exemplary.
VOTE LEAVE adopting red as its colour to appeal to Labour voters was very smart.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
I once agreed; I no longer believe this. All campaigns are a bit shit when you examine them, as they happen.
With some perspective, LEAVE played it brilliantly; from the red buses and bunting designed to hook in Labour voters, to the dual LEAVE strategy of nasty cop Farage and nice cop Boris, to the timing of the best memes - LEAVE paced it judiciously, e.g. going for "points system" when it really mattered.
And LEAVE made far fewer ghastly blunders, whereas REMAIN made loads.
Given the odds and armies arrayed against them, I'd say LEAVE's performance was exemplary.
VOTE LEAVE adopting red as its colour to appeal to Labour voters was very smart.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.
It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.
In retrospect Alan Johnson would have been better (although he led the official campaign he did not lead the unofficial campaign), working class background, Labour but Blairite enough not to turn off Tories. However I doubt it would have changed the result
Referendums usually become referendums on the government, or at least those who are proposing it.
That's how Wilson won his, and Clegg and Cameron lost theirs.
By voting day Cameron had crashed to Gordon Brown levels and Osborne even lower. The result was baked in months earlier when Cameron failed at his renegotiation.
Pro EU labour are going to have fun selling their message in places like Sunderland.
Very true and in places such as Wales. Labour have forgotten who their voters are.
I think Labour have to write the EU off as an issue, and go with the Brexit flow.
Then they lose their membership, London and some of the larger cities. Their electoral base is now like chalk and cheese. One despises the other. Quite how they've arrived at this position, Lord only knows. Time for the posh word of the day: Labour are in zugzwang.
Mind you if May keeps us in the single market, it may be asked how long the likes of Bill Cash, IDS, Kenneth Clarke and Soubry can stay in the same party too
As time goes on I am increasingly sure we made the right decision. I'd be feeling sick now if I'd voted REMAIN, on selfish grounds.
I don't care if Brexit costs 10% of GDP (which it won't, nowhere near). We regained our soul as a sovereign nation. That's more important.
Yes, completely agreed. The more people I talk to the more resilient I have realised the UK is as well.
So far we've demonstrated political resilience rather than economic resilience. I'm still a staunch Remainer but the way the British state, and the Conservative party got its act together so quickly after the referendum was seriously impressive. In particular, Cameron resigning before triggering Article 50 was a masterstroke of diplomacy and negotiation. He truly did serve the national interest in that moment.
Economically resilient as well. Much more than I expected.
OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.
It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.
In retrospect Alan Johnson would have been better (although he led the official campaign he did not lead the unofficial campaign), working class background, Labour but Blairite enough not to turn off Tories. However I doubt it would have changed the result
Referendums usually become referendums on the government, or at least those who are proposing it.
That's how Wilson won his, and Clegg and Cameron lost theirs.
By voting day Cameron had crashed to Gordon Brown levels and Osborne even lower. The result was baked in months earlier when Cameron failed at his renegotiation.
He won Scotland though, Blair would not have won a Euro referendum even when his popularity was in the stratosphere
After a brief lull, I resumed liquidating my humungous Gary Johnson POTUS position and tonight I'm finally all out.
Backed @ 999/1 (just before the libertarian convention) Laid @ average 342/1
The guy is hopeless.
He has the best chance for a 3rd party in decades, mainstream liberal and conservative media have given him a decent amount of sympathetic coverage, he's got $$$ and yet he's completely flatlining in the polls.
Hopeless.
Good luck to those on PB who are backing him, anyway.
Boris is surprisingly popular with the WWC. The most unexpected people I meet are fans of the Bozza.
And the BBC docu just confirmed it - those little old northern ladies loved him.
I'm not sure WHY he is liked, but he is.
I think it's simply because he doesn't exude fatalism. So many managerial politicians project a sense that this is as good as it gets and if you don't like it, you need re-educating.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.
It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.
I don't think it would have made a difference, unless they reanimated the corpses of Churchill and Maggie and got them to campaign for Remain they wouldn't have won.
That's going too far. If Cameron had called Boris before calling the referendum and said, "I'll back you for the leadership if you win the campaign for Remain," it would have been enough to swing it.
Nah. I don't think BoJo is that popular in Hartlepool and South Wales.
On the consequences, it is a bit early to tell. We are in the phoney war stage where nothing has yet changed.
Boris is surprisingly popular with the WWC. The most unexpected people I meet are fans of the Bozza.
And the BBC docu just confirmed it - those little old northern ladies loved him.
I'm not sure WHY he is liked, but he is.
Because he's seen as a politician who will call a spade a spade.
The refusal of Cameron to authorise attack ads against Boris.
I said at the time that Remain should have gone for Boris and Gove in the style of Trump and ruthlessly attacked them personally - goofy Gove and bonkers Boris. In retrospect Gove was even more vulnerable to this than I realised.
There was an article in the Times that said somebody mocked up a Boris-In-Putin-Pocket ad, and Cameron vetoed it. Facepalm.
As time goes on I am increasingly sure we made the right decision. I'd be feeling sick now if I'd voted REMAIN, on selfish grounds.
I don't care if Brexit costs 10% of GDP (which it won't, nowhere near). We regained our soul as a sovereign nation. That's more important.
Yes, completely agreed. The more people I talk to the more resilient I have realised the UK is as well.
So far we've demonstrated political resilience rather than economic resilience. I'm still a staunch Remainer but the way the British state, and the Conservative party got its act together so quickly after the referendum was seriously impressive. In particular, Cameron resigning before triggering Article 50 was a masterstroke of diplomacy and negotiation. He truly did serve the national interest in that moment.
Economically resilient as well. Much more than I expected.
But we haven't left yet. Any economic resilience is a result of negative sentiment being contained.
Messrs Meeks and Smithson, above the line, were reassuring us REMAIN was waltzing it, until about a week before the vote. Indeed they wrote endless threaders LAUGHING at the LEAVE campaign.
The pompous advice given to the Leave campaign wasn't a high point... All the while Remain were systematically destroying their own case.
The terrific complacency from REMAIN certainly contributed to their downfall. Yes, I'm looking at you, Richard "it'll be 70/30" Nabavi.
I don't believe they gamed the possibility that immigration would dominate, that Boris and Gove would join LEAVE, and so on.
It was a victory of the incompetent over the dire. At times, the Leave campaign was awful. But, the Remain campaign managed to be worse.
The Remain campaign was poor, but I don't know what else they could have done. The product they were selling was undesirable. Roger will tell you that there's only so much turd polishing decent advertising can do and the EU is an absolutely massive, stinking turd.
It was obvious in hindsight that having Cameron leading the Remain campaign was a very stupid thing to do.
I don't think it would have made a difference, unless they reanimated the corpses of Churchill and Maggie and got them to campaign for Remain they wouldn't have won.
That's going too far. If Cameron had called Boris before calling the referendum and said, "I'll back you for the leadership if you win the campaign for Remain," it would have been enough to swing it.
The problem for the Remain campaign was having too many posh boys, not too few.
OK, another subject - I have three daughters - 6, 4, and 1 - and am driving down to Cornwall on Saturday. Does anyone have any tips for car music acceptable to both indie-orientated adults and pre-pubescent girls? I have a playlist but it needs expanding.
At that age nothing works better than repetition, and singalong is good.
I brought Foxjr up on Northern Soul. Short songs that bear repetition with catchy hooks.
Was going to say Motown....
Yes, Northern Soul and Motown sound good - though I'm an expert on neither so need to do a bit of research to tease out any too-adult subject matter.
Basically, they like songs that are obviously sung with audible lyrics. And my music collection features things like the Pixies, the Fall and the Dead Kennedys. There is an overlap in the Venn Diagram, but it's not large.
Comments
I wish the press would report more sensibly.
4 Sinn Feiners don't vote.
11 DUP, UUP and UKIP all dead keen on Grammar Schools.
So majority actually 43.
And thats before any Labour MPs who support grammar schools are taken into account like Mrs Hoey.
As we have seen since.
The people impressed by power were clustered round Leave. And now they have it.
Well, some of them.
A master has financial investment in his/her slaves and loses a tangible asset if they die. A capitalist does not care if his unskilled workers die as he can get more.
Marxism 101
The Smartest Guys Weren't In The Room.....
Mandy is sticking the knife into Jez...not that it will make any difference to the cult following.
I think coal miner women used dope on their kids
before they descended for a long shift below.
He was so suave once upon a time.
I brought Foxjr up on Northern Soul. Short songs that bear repetition with catchy hooks.
(Dolly Parton and Dusty Springfield too)
The good people of Broxtowe would have been better off voting for Nick Palmer, than this dripping wet Europhile excuse for a Conservative.
There's the door,
Bye bye Blairites,
Cross the floor,
Bye bye Blairites,
Go away,
Bye bye Blairites,
It's a new day!
Add me to the Tories for Palmer club!
There were other things which the program aren't focussing on. The use of loans from Aaron Banks[1] in the last few weeks extended about £5-10 million to LEAVE, and LEAVE were able to advertise in the last few weeks in the purdah period which REMAIN couldn't. The refusal of Cameron to authorise attack ads against Boris. The Clarke/Goodwin/Whitely analysis of the polls saying that LEAVE was always in the lead
So this program is good, albeit a bit shallow and with some holes. But for a hour-long documentary, it's pretty good.
[1] It's unfair to single him out, but a list is outside the scope of this reply.
Be LEAVE!
I think someone on here said the remain campaign was shit because the E.U is shit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36857307
https://youtu.be/1TmUP1StPf0
It was almost back to the 1960s stuff, with the removal of all privatisations, the restoration of collective bargaining and peace for the world. All it needed was the great man handing out bottles of cola and trying to teach the crowd to sing in perfect harmony.
I am sorry to say that the other speakers were equally dreadful. The crowd were also hectored by a strident 14 year old. One of the local councillors highlighted attacks on refugees citing an attack with an icecream on a baby.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/04/18/camerons-biggest-euref-error-could-be-diverting-from-wilsons-winning-1975-template/
It may seem trivial, but using red as the official colour was an excellent decision.
Labour Leave (for whom I did a lot of deliveries) had great propaganda too. We worked out the bits of Luton where we should deliver left wing leave flyers, and those parts where we delivered right wing Leave flyers.
On the consequences, it is a bit early to tell. We are in the phoney war stage where nothing has yet changed.
That's how Wilson won his, and Clegg and Cameron lost theirs.
By voting day Cameron had crashed to Gordon Brown levels and Osborne even lower.
The result was baked in months earlier when Cameron failed at his renegotiation.
Backed @ 999/1 (just before the libertarian convention)
Laid @ average 342/1
The guy is hopeless.
He has the best chance for a 3rd party in decades, mainstream liberal and conservative media have given him a decent amount of sympathetic coverage, he's got $$$ and yet he's completely flatlining in the polls.
Hopeless.
Good luck to those on PB who are backing him, anyway.
Basically, they like songs that are obviously sung with audible lyrics. And my music collection features things like the Pixies, the Fall and the Dead Kennedys. There is an overlap in the Venn Diagram, but it's not large.