politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If the courts remove Corbyn from the ballot then LAB would
Comments
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Its very Gordonesque... but can Corbyn "save the world" too.rottenborough said:
He really is stuck in a mix of 1970s and 1945. Commanding heights and all that.John_M said:
"Woooooooosh". That's the sound of the modern world going over Jeremy's head.rottenborough said:Corbyn:
"Jeremy Corbyn said it was wrong for medical research to be “farmed out to big pharmaceutical companies like Pfizer” (Guardian)
Is nationalizing pharmaceuticals Labour policy?0 -
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.BudG said:There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
Most of the complaints about Corbyn from the PLP are not about his policies, but about the man himself, his lack of leadership qualities. Smith has gone on record as saying he agrees with most of Corbyn's policies and would be happy to serve under him if he lost this election.
The PLP have made this election all about saving the Party from splitting, which considering it is their actions that have brought us to this point seems a bit rich, but that is by the by.
If Owen Smith wants to save the Party from splitting, the easiest way to do that is to step down from this contest in which it looks likely he will be mullered anyway. If he does that in the spirit of calling for unity and the Labour rebels fall into line and actually start showing some support, albeit like-warm support, for the democratically elected Labour Party Leader, then Labour would recover in the polls to the point that they may just be in a position to be the largest Party at the next election.
Corbyn is no spring chicken, If the next election is in 2020, he will be 74 and potentially the oldest PM since Winston Churchill, in an age where politicians are generally getting younger. He has been under a lot of pressure and it will have taken it's toll. He may well feel that having got the Party back into a position of stability, albeit precarious stability, he could step back and allow someone who shares his views to carry on and with his full support, if they made it onto the ballot and with JC's backing, the membership would probably go along with this.
So, you would then have a more stabilised Labour Party going into the election with a younger, fresh-faced leader who has the backing of the membership and none of the baggage that Corbyn has. One proviso is that the new leader could not be McDonnel, because he is too inextricably linked with Corbyn and has baggage of his own
It could work... couldn 't it0 -
I wouldn't wish Gove on anyone!williamglenn said:
And I wish to you Rajoy, and Anastasiades.Paristonda said:
And IIIIIIIII, will always Leave EUUUUwilliamglenn said:
Leave is a many tendered thingTheScreamingEagles said:
EU can't hurry Leave.
But above all this, I wish to you Gove.
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You mean PB's servers aren't stored in the Pyramid of Cheops? How dull...Morris_Dancer said:Mr. D, it's a pyramid of proclivities, not an actual pyramid.
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We'd probably re-open the pits and then not have any miners work there.rottenborough said:
He really is stuck in a mix of 1970s and 1945. Commanding heights and all that.John_M said:
"Woooooooosh". That's the sound of the modern world going over Jeremy's head.rottenborough said:Corbyn:
"Jeremy Corbyn said it was wrong for medical research to be “farmed out to big pharmaceutical companies like Pfizer” (Guardian)
Is nationalizing pharmaceuticals Labour policy?0 -
That was an unfair referendum as it was conducted under FPTP.Sunil_Prasannan said:
The same AV wot was rejected by the UK public at the 2011 referendum by a margin of 68% to 32%?RobD said:
Aren't you forgetting AV? The apex of the PB discussion pyramid.TheScreamingEagles said:
Latin, classical history, and science jokes, you wouldn't get this from any other website.ThreeQuidder said:I'll stop now.
That AV?
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Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.0 -
TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
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TheScreamingEagles said:
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
- acknowledged. 0 -
I'm sure Labour romping home in Islington and Hackney by elections will be proof of Corbyn being on verge of government.RobD said:
Our Harry has a nice balance in terms of detail and length. That looked like an essay on each race!Tissue_Price said:By-election previews for tonight - someone's trying to do Harry out of a job!
http://election-data.co.uk/by-election-previews0 -
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.0 -
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidate voted in, right?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.0 -
The current Labour leadership election is quasi-FPTP...TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.0 -
Not quite. You also need an AV refresher thread.Richard_Nabavi said:
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidated voted in, right?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.0 -
The same AV wot was rejected by the UK public at the 2011 referendum by a margin of 68% to 32%?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
That AV? 0 -
The poor showing in the polls at the moment is more to do with the constant criticism being aimed at Corbn by his MP's which is gleefully amplified by the media. A party that is seen by the voters as being split will inevitably get slaughtered in a General election and splits don't come any more blatant than three quarters of their MP's passing a vote of no confience in the leader and forcing a bloody leadership battle.John_M said:
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.BudG said:There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
It could work... couldn 't it
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together0 -
Like I said earlier, wishful thinking. The only route out of this is to purge the party of the Momentum types, including Corbyn & McDonnell themselves.John_M said:That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.
Whereas Smith is running on a "Jeremy's OK, his policies are OK, it's just competence" platform. And no-one from within the party is seriously challenging Corbyn on his past associations either [just like last time].
So they kinda deserve what's coming to them, though Smith's is probably the right strategic choice to maximise his small chance of winning.
Perhaps a two-pronged assault might have been better - someone like John Mann to go all-out assault on Corbyn, and someone like Nandy to be the sweetness-and-light reconciler?0 -
TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
Reality of AV <> Theory of AV.
Ms Eagle understood the former very well.
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Much like Leave, after losing the first referendum Yes2AV would win a second referendum, hopefully without the interregnum of 41 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
The same AV wot was rejected by the UK public at the 2011 referendum by a margin of 68% to 32%?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
That AV?0 -
Cant see Angela being tempted into your harem somehow.TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
Apparently she is not as "norma"l as Smith.
BTW Smith presumably doesnt understand AV either.
Alas Smith and Eagle0 -
Is there any electoral system which is not just FPTP when there are only 2 contenders?TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.0 -
Delusional!TheScreamingEagles said:
Much like Leave, after losing the first referendum Yes2AV would win a second referendum, hopefully without the interregnum of 41 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
The same AV wot was rejected by the UK public at the 2011 referendum by a margin of 68% to 32%?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
That AV? 0 -
It's kind-of Exhaustive Ballot, isn't it? Or does it just feel like that?ThreeQuidder said:
The current Labour leadership election is quasi-FPTP...TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.0 -
Maria Eagle: "I'm the straight one!"bigjohnowls said:
Cant see Angela being tempted into your harem somehow.TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
Apparently she is not as "norma"l as Smith.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Eagle0 -
Multi-Ballot Anti Vote.not_on_fire said:
Is there any electoral system which is not just FPTP when there are only 2 contenders?TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
But it just goes to show how FPTP is the fundamental electoral system on which all lesser variants rest.0 -
You could set a requirement to get at least 60% of the vote (or 100%) or the election would be held again. I wouldn't be surprised if certain appointments were done like that.not_on_fire said:
Is there any electoral system which is not just FPTP when there are only 2 contenders?TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.0 -
I would suggest that the EU referendum was probably the last UK-wide referendum we will see for a long time.TheScreamingEagles said:
Much like Leave, after losing the first referendum Yes2AV would win a second referendum, hopefully without the interregnum of 41 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
The same AV wot was rejected by the UK public at the 2011 referendum by a margin of 68% to 32%?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
That AV?0 -
By modern world you presumably mean since the 19th century which is when many of the world's largest pharmaceutical companies were started. It's state sponsored medical research that is the new kid on the block.John_M said:
"Woooooooosh". That's the sound of the modern world going over Jeremy's head.rottenborough said:Corbyn:
"Jeremy Corbyn said it was wrong for medical research to be “farmed out to big pharmaceutical companies like Pfizer” (Guardian)
Is nationalizing pharmaceuticals Labour policy?0 -
If the court case suceeds?david_herdson said:
It's kind-of Exhaustive Ballot, isn't it? Or does it just feel like that?ThreeQuidder said:
The current Labour leadership election is quasi-FPTP...TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.0 -
I'm not going to rain on your parade @BudG. We live in a world where Donald Trump might be POTUS. Unicorns, Aliens, PM Corbyn, I'm ready to believe anything is possible.BudG said:
The poor showing in the polls at the moment is more to do with the constant criticism being aimed at Corbn by his MP's which is gleefully amplified by the media. A party that is seen by the voters as being split will inevitably get slaughtered in a General election and splits don't come any more blatant than three quarters of their MP's passing a vote of no confience in the leader and forcing a bloody leadership battle.John_M said:
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.BudG said:There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
It could work... couldn 't it
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together0 -
Exhausting Ballot, yes.david_herdson said:
It's kind-of Exhaustive Ballot, isn't it? Or does it just feel like that?ThreeQuidder said:
The current Labour leadership election is quasi-FPTP...TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.0 -
Boo.RobD said:
I would suggest that the EU referendum was probably the last UK-wide referendum we will see for a long time.TheScreamingEagles said:
Much like Leave, after losing the first referendum Yes2AV would win a second referendum, hopefully without the interregnum of 41 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
The same AV wot was rejected by the UK public at the 2011 referendum by a margin of 68% to 32%?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
That AV?0 -
Maybe she needs to do a thread to educate you on why, even under AV, it's better to focus all of the PLP's resource and effort behind just one candidate.TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
AV isn't as complicated as you seem to think it is; you're not really that brilliant for understanding it.0 -
The Tory method is Exhaustive Ballot - until people withdraw!david_herdson said:
It's kind-of Exhaustive Ballot, isn't it? Or does it just feel like that?ThreeQuidder said:
The current Labour leadership election is quasi-FPTP...TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.0 -
That's arguably FPTP with an implied third, RON, candidate with a fixed percentage.TheWhiteRabbit said:
You could set a requirement to get at least 60% of the vote (or 100%) or the election would be held again. I wouldn't be surprised if certain appointments were done like that.not_on_fire said:
Is there any electoral system which is not just FPTP when there are only 2 contenders?TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.0 -
Bets on the subject of the next one? Future of the monarchy perhaps?RobD said:
I would suggest that the EU referendum was probably the last UK-wide referendum we will see for a long time.TheScreamingEagles said:
Much like Leave, after losing the first referendum Yes2AV would win a second referendum, hopefully without the interregnum of 41 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
The same AV wot was rejected by the UK public at the 2011 referendum by a margin of 68% to 32%?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
That AV?0 -
Someone suggested this purge of Momentum memers from the Labour Party earlier today. Their total membership is less than 10,000. If they are all Labour Party members and they are removed, what are you going to do about the quarter a million plus members who have bought into the Corbyn ideology, how are you going to stifle and ignore their democratic rights and views?Tissue_Price said:
Like I said earlier, wishful thinking. The only route out of this is to purge the party of the Momentum types, including Corbyn & McDonnell themselves.John_M said:That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.
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She understood it perfectly well (as I suspect you know). Spending most of the campaign arguing with Smith why they were the best one to replace Corbyn would have done neither of them any favours.TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.0 -
That's right - on the face of it.BudG said:Most of the complaints about Corbyn from the PLP are not about his policies, but about the man himself, his lack of leadership qualities.
But is it really the case?
Are there not a lot of Lab MPs who don't agree with his policies but know they would be slaughtered for attacking his policies so instead they just say it's about his leadership qualities?
If Corbyn and his supporters were so sure everyone backed his policies, they wouldn't be so desperate for him to remain as leader!
Trident is obviously one example but if Corbyn was ousted would a more mainstream leader really stick to all McDonnell's economic policies - eg mass money printing etc.
I suspect if Corbyn goes the policies would, in practice, move back towards Ed Miliband type stuff.0 -
Wondering if Theresa May will go to the country in May 2017. There will be a slogan/pun there for the campaign.
Vote May in May.0 -
You need your irony meter calibrating.JonnyJimmy said:
Maybe she needs to do a thread to educate you on why, even under AV, it's better to focus all of the PLP's resource and effort behind just one candidate.TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
AV isn't as complicated as you seem to think it is; you're not really that brilliant for understanding it.0 -
John_M said:
I'm not going to rain on your parade @BudG. We live in a world where Donald Trump might be POTUS. Unicorns, Aliens, PM Corbyn, I'm ready to believe anything is possible.BudG said:
The poor showing in the polls at the moment is more to do with the constant criticism being aimed at Corbn by his MP's which is gleefully amplified by the media. A party that is seen by the voters as being split will inevitably get slaughtered in a General election and splits don't come any more blatant than three quarters of their MP's passing a vote of no confience in the leader and forcing a bloody leadership battle.John_M said:
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.BudG said:There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
It could work... couldn 't it
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together0 -
I know she did.david_herdson said:
She understood it perfectly well (as I suspect you know). Spending most of the campaign arguing with Smith why they were the best one to replace Corbyn would have done neither of them any favours.TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
But you know me, any excuse to do a thread on AV....0 -
When they call Jeremy Corbyn a Renaissance man it's not meant as a compliment.glw said:
By modern world you presumably mean since the 19th century which is when many of the world's largest pharmaceutical companies were started. It's state sponsored medical research that is the new kid on the block.John_M said:
"Woooooooosh". That's the sound of the modern world going over Jeremy's head.rottenborough said:Corbyn:
"Jeremy Corbyn said it was wrong for medical research to be “farmed out to big pharmaceutical companies like Pfizer” (Guardian)
Is nationalizing pharmaceuticals Labour policy?0 -
I.e. RAF marham, Norfolk attack.
Real Turnip Taliban?0 -
Not sure.williamglenn said:
Bets on the subject of the next one? Future of the monarchy perhaps?RobD said:
I would suggest that the EU referendum was probably the last UK-wide referendum we will see for a long time.TheScreamingEagles said:
Much like Leave, after losing the first referendum Yes2AV would win a second referendum, hopefully without the interregnum of 41 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
The same AV wot was rejected by the UK public at the 2011 referendum by a margin of 68% to 32%?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
That AV?
If I was to place a bet on it (and this is evidence that I wont).. a confirmation ballot for TSE's second 20-year term as directly elected dictator.
An idea for the design of the ballot paper:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Stimmzettel-Anschluss.jpg0 -
Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
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My hero Tony Benn should have pulled out in February 1953TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
Gets Coat0 -
If it's 4/5/17, it would beJonathan said:Wondering if Theresa May will go to the country in May 2017. There will be a slogan/pun there for the campaign.
Vote May in May.
Theresa May the Fourth be with you!0 -
Then I'll find your AV thread 'jokes' funny?TheScreamingEagles said:
You need your irony meter calibrating.JonnyJimmy said:
Maybe she needs to do a thread to educate you on why, even under AV, it's better to focus all of the PLP's resource and effort behind just one candidate.TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
AV isn't as complicated as you seem to think it is; you're not really that brilliant for understanding it.0 -
Talk of SDP2 or a Democratic Party are wide of the mark. If the existing membership had decided on a path of self-immolation then maybe. But there is a clear feeling (backed up by recent surveys) that the Labour Party has been swamped by insurgents - more than doubling its membership but so many of the new members don't believe in the Labour Party just Jeremy Corbyn.
Owen Smith can't pull out, he has to challenge Corbyn whether he wins or not. When Corbyn wins (and he will) the hate mob will move to purge the old membership and the PLP, and thats why a move against Momentum is inevitable - its sheer survival.
There is room for a realignment, with 30 or so continuity new Labour MPs joining the rump LibDems and some Cameroon Tories in a new centre party, and if the rebellion in the PLP was that small it would probably happen. But its far far bigger than that, and all these centre left MPs who have no confidence in Corbyn will not accept being branded Tories and being told to leave by new members who have been around for only a few months. They'll say this is OUR party and YOU are the coup, not us.0 -
Or just publicly back the boundary changes, which he could use to start mass reselections immediately?TGOHF said:Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.0 -
Mr. M, Dark Ages more than Renaissance.0
-
I can claim to have been a Mackenzie friend at High Court.Carolus_Rex said:
Could be even more amusing if he brings along, oh I don't know, Diane Abbot? as his Mackenzie Friend.Bob__Sykes said:
Given his antics at the NEC meeting (refusal to leave the room etc), this could be big box office, if it wasn't already!CarlottaVance said:It just keeps getting better:
@MichaelLCrick: Legal sources say Jeremy Corbyn plans to attend in person next Tuesday's High Court hearing over Michael Foster action against Labour NEC
And I assume several of his followers will be coming along to "support" their hero in his hour of need.
Comic Labour - the gift that keeps on giving...
We lost. 0 -
Eagle has damaged her political reputation forever with her behaviour over all of this.david_herdson said:
She understood it perfectly well (as I suspect you know). Spending most of the campaign arguing with Smith why they were the best one to replace Corbyn would have done neither of them any favours.TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
To my mind, she had a moral and political duty to follow through with the challenge that she initiated. Smith's late entrance had nothing to do with anything other than his own cowardice.
He was waiting to see the lay of the land before making his choice.
But either way, Eagle should have stayed the course. She started it. She should have finished it.
Now she looks even weaker than she did before. No courage. No backbone. And no political skill.
And these two are the best Labour could find. A coward and a weak fool. Pathetic.0 -
Meanwhile, the voters will look on, with increasing distaste for both factions. Especially traditional Labour voters.RochdalePioneers said:Talk of SDP2 or a Democratic Party are wide of the mark. If the existing membership had decided on a path of self-immolation then maybe. But there is a clear feeling (backed up by recent surveys) that the Labour Party has been swamped by insurgents - more than doubling its membership but so many of the new members don't believe in the Labour Party just Jeremy Corbyn.
Owen Smith can't pull out, he has to challenge Corbyn whether he wins or not. When Corbyn wins (and he will) the hate mob will move to purge the old membership and the PLP, and thats why a move against Momentum is inevitable - its sheer survival.
There is room for a realignment, with 30 or so continuity new Labour MPs joining the rump LibDems and some Cameroon Tories in a new centre party, and if the rebellion in the PLP was that small it would probably happen. But its far far bigger than that, and all these centre left MPs who have no confidence in Corbyn will not accept being branded Tories and being told to leave by new members who have been around for only a few months. They'll say this is OUR party and YOU are the coup, not us.0 -
Shocking filth. Am absolutely disgusted.bigjohnowls said:
My hero Tony Benn should have pulled out in February 1953TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
Gets Coat
You need to have an innocent mind like mine.0 -
Everyone else finds them funny.JonnyJimmy said:
Then I'll find your AV thread 'jokes' funny?TheScreamingEagles said:
You need your irony meter calibrating.JonnyJimmy said:
Maybe she needs to do a thread to educate you on why, even under AV, it's better to focus all of the PLP's resource and effort behind just one candidate.TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
AV isn't as complicated as you seem to think it is; you're not really that brilliant for understanding it.0 -
TheScreamingEagles said:
Not quite. You also need an AV refresher thread.Richard_Nabavi said:
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidated voted in, right?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
With no more European elections, we say a sad goodbye to the d'Hondt election system
How about a thread to save the d'Hondt system by using it for our general elections.
0 -
Why do you think anyone wants to purge the membership.RochdalePioneers said:Talk of SDP2 or a Democratic Party are wide of the mark. If the existing membership had decided on a path of self-immolation then maybe. But there is a clear feeling (backed up by recent surveys) that the Labour Party has been swamped by insurgents - more than doubling its membership but so many of the new members don't believe in the Labour Party just Jeremy Corbyn.
Owen Smith can't pull out, he has to challenge Corbyn whether he wins or not. When Corbyn wins (and he will) the hate mob will move to purge the old membership and the PLP, and thats why a move against Momentum is inevitable - its sheer survival.
There is room for a realignment, with 30 or so continuity new Labour MPs joining the rump LibDems and some Cameroon Tories in a new centre party, and if the rebellion in the PLP was that small it would probably happen. But its far far bigger than that, and all these centre left MPs who have no confidence in Corbyn will not accept being branded Tories and being told to leave by new members who have been around for only a few months. They'll say this is OUR party and YOU are the coup, not us.
Fantasy Island.0 -
You need not worry! The D'Hondt system is used to allocate seats in the NI executive between parties.David_Evershed said:TheScreamingEagles said:
Not quite. You also need an AV refresher thread.Richard_Nabavi said:
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidated voted in, right?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
With no more European elections, we say a sad goodbye to the d'Hondt election system
How about a thread to save the d'Hondt system by using it for our general elections.0 -
Yeah but then he's stuck with a bunch of hopeless malcontents until 2020.ThreeQuidder said:
Or just publicly back the boundary changes, which he could use to start mass reselections immediately?TGOHF said:Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
150 bye elections now and he gains 150 hopeless supportive MPs.
0 -
''Would put an end to the infighting for good.''
If Corbyn fights Smith off then 150 careers are effectively over, surely. You either drink the Red Kool aid and face losing your seat, or you fight on and get deselected before even getting to election.
Or you join SDP2 and lose your seat that way.0 -
I think you are probably right about his policies and the reasons for MP's not saying so, but that is just cowardly and just leaves it as an attack on the man himself and most of his detractors even admit that he has good qualities as a person, so that attack falls flat .MikeL said:
That's right - on the face of it.BudG said:Most of the complaints about Corbyn from the PLP are not about his policies, but about the man himself, his lack of leadership qualities.
But is it really the case?
Are there not a lot of Lab MPs who don't agree with his policies but know they would be slaughtered for attacking his policies so instead they just say it's about his leadership qualities?
If Corbyn and his supporters were so sure everyone backed his policies, they wouldn't be so desperate for him to remain as leader!
Trident is obviously one example but if Corbyn was ousted would a more mainstream leader really stick to all McDonnell's economic policies - eg mass money printing etc.
I suspect if Corbyn goes the policies would, in practice, move back towards Ed Miliband type stuff.
And yes, if Corbyn goes, I agree that, even under a Corbyn approved successor, the policies would change to policies more acceptable by the PLP. So that is the only real positive way forward, which keeps the Party intact is to allow him to continue, show him some luke warm support, re-unite the Party, allow him to recommend a successor to the emmebrship.. and we take it from there. The one proviso as I said in my original post is that his successor cannot be McDeommel, otherwise we are back to square one.0 -
TGOHF said:
Yeah but then he's stuck with a bunch of hopeless malcontents until 2020.ThreeQuidder said:
Or just publicly back the boundary changes, which he could use to start mass reselections immediately?TGOHF said:Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
150 bye elections now and he gains 150 hopeless supportive MPs.
Corbyn has no way to force 150 by-elections.
0 -
This rather misses the point that Corbyn has no say in that. It was the electorate who put those MPs into the house. He can't trigger any by-elections. They are Members of Parliament and can only leave by the usual routes - not just because Corbyn feels like a purge.TGOHF said:Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.0 -
omg and it's a Thursday! Nailed on, surely?Sunil_Prasannan said:
If it's 4/5/17, it would beJonathan said:Wondering if Theresa May will go to the country in May 2017. There will be a slogan/pun there for the campaign.
Vote May in May.
Theresa May the Fourth be with you! 0 -
''Fantasy Island.''
In the end, I don;t see how the current MPs win. Labour will become like its membership, and fight 2020 on a very socialist platform, with very socialist candidates much more amenable to Jeremy that the current bunch.0 -
But there's no mechanism for Corbyn to trigger 150 by-elections. The closest he could get is a general election and that would require Tory assistance.TGOHF said:
Yeah but then he's stuck with a bunch of hopeless malcontents until 2020.ThreeQuidder said:
Or just publicly back the boundary changes, which he could use to start mass reselections immediately?TGOHF said:Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
150 bye elections now and he gains 150 hopeless supportive MPs.
The seats belong to the MPs, not the party.0 -
Such a shame that all 650 seats in the House of Commons are disappearing to be replaced by 600 new ones.oxfordsimon said:
This rather misses the point that Corbyn has no say in that. It was the electorate who put those MPs into the house. He can't trigger any by-elections. They are Members of Parliament and can only leave by the usual routes - not just because Corbyn feels like a purge.TGOHF said:Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
No such thing as an incumbent at the next GE
0 -
Probably all those people talking about purging either Blairites or the far left respectively, or wanting to. The MPs are out of step with the membership but they aren't alone, and plenty of people just on here have mentioned wanting to get rid of the MPs, so wanting to get rid of members who support the MPs surely follows.bigjohnowls said:
Why do you think anyone wants to purge the membership.RochdalePioneers said:Talk of SDP2 or a Democratic Party are wide of the mark. If the existing membership had decided on a path of self-immolation then maybe. But there is a clear feeling (backed up by recent surveys) that the Labour Party has been swamped by insurgents - more than doubling its membership but so many of the new members don't believe in the Labour Party just Jeremy Corbyn.
Owen Smith can't pull out, he has to challenge Corbyn whether he wins or not. When Corbyn wins (and he will) the hate mob will move to purge the old membership and the PLP, and thats why a move against Momentum is inevitable - its sheer survival.
There is room for a realignment, with 30 or so continuity new Labour MPs joining the rump LibDems and some Cameroon Tories in a new centre party, and if the rebellion in the PLP was that small it would probably happen. But its far far bigger than that, and all these centre left MPs who have no confidence in Corbyn will not accept being branded Tories and being told to leave by new members who have been around for only a few months. They'll say this is OUR party and YOU are the coup, not us.0 -
Some may be unchanged, although not sure if Labour hold any of the usual suspects (Western Isles etc.)Pulpstar said:
Such a shame that all 650 seats in the House of Commons are disappearing to be replaced by 600 new ones.oxfordsimon said:
This rather misses the point that Corbyn has no say in that. It was the electorate who put those MPs into the house. He can't trigger any by-elections. They are Members of Parliament and can only leave by the usual routes - not just because Corbyn feels like a purge.TGOHF said:Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
No such thing as an incumbent at the next GE0 -
I've got the headline sorted.David_Evershed said:TheScreamingEagles said:
Not quite. You also need an AV refresher thread.Richard_Nabavi said:
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidated voted in, right?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
With no more European elections, we say a sad goodbye to the d'Hondt election system
How about a thread to save the d'Hondt system by using it for our general elections.
D'Hondt you want me (baby)0 -
If we did so we should reclaim our Anglo Saxon heritage by calling it Jefferson's method.David_Evershed said:TheScreamingEagles said:
Not quite. You also need an AV refresher thread.Richard_Nabavi said:
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidated voted in, right?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
With no more European elections, we say a sad goodbye to the d'Hondt election system
How about a thread to save the d'Hondt system by using it for our general elections.0 -
or...TheScreamingEagles said:
I've got the headline sorted.David_Evershed said:TheScreamingEagles said:
Not quite. You also need an AV refresher thread.Richard_Nabavi said:
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidated voted in, right?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
With no more European elections, we say a sad goodbye to the d'Hondt election system
How about a thread to save the d'Hondt system by using it for our general elections.
D'Hondt you want me (baby)
D'Hondt EU want me (baby)0 -
Corbyn has many admirable qualities that people have bought into, but I am naive enough to think that him leading the Party into the next election is going to be anything other than a disaster, particularly if the open acrimony towards him is continuing. I want the Labour party to continue and I want it to have a chance of winning power again one day. I set out one way it might be able to happen. If there are any other feasible options, then I would be open to hearng them.John_M said:
I'm not going to rain on your parade @BudG. We live in a world where Donald Trump might be POTUS. Unicorns, Aliens, PM Corbyn, I'm ready to believe anything is possible.BudG said:
The poor showing in the polls at the moment is more to do with the constant criticism being aimed at Corbn by his MP's which is gleefully amplified by the media. A party that is seen by the voters as being split will inevitably get slaughtered in a General election and splits don't come any more blatant than three quarters of their MP's passing a vote of no confience in the leader and forcing a bloody leadership battle.John_M said:
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.BudG said:There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
It could work... couldn 't it
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together0 -
The membership is the party in Labour's case. The 'moderate' members will not need to be purged in the slightest, they'll just be outnumbered.kle4 said:
Probably all those people talking about purging either Blairites or the far left respectively, or wanting to. The MPs are out of step with the membership but they aren't alone, and plenty of people just on here have mentioned wanting to get rid of the MPs, so wanting to get rid of members who support the MPs surely follows.bigjohnowls said:
Why do you think anyone wants to purge the membership.RochdalePioneers said:Talk of SDP2 or a Democratic Party are wide of the mark. If the existing membership had decided on a path of self-immolation then maybe. But there is a clear feeling (backed up by recent surveys) that the Labour Party has been swamped by insurgents - more than doubling its membership but so many of the new members don't believe in the Labour Party just Jeremy Corbyn.
Owen Smith can't pull out, he has to challenge Corbyn whether he wins or not. When Corbyn wins (and he will) the hate mob will move to purge the old membership and the PLP, and thats why a move against Momentum is inevitable - its sheer survival.
There is room for a realignment, with 30 or so continuity new Labour MPs joining the rump LibDems and some Cameroon Tories in a new centre party, and if the rebellion in the PLP was that small it would probably happen. But its far far bigger than that, and all these centre left MPs who have no confidence in Corbyn will not accept being branded Tories and being told to leave by new members who have been around for only a few months. They'll say this is OUR party and YOU are the coup, not us.0 -
Who is going to do that? The leadership? The NEC? The PLP? The constituencies? The unions?RochdalePioneers said:Talk of SDP2 or a Democratic Party are wide of the mark. If the existing membership had decided on a path of self-immolation then maybe. But there is a clear feeling (backed up by recent surveys) that the Labour Party has been swamped by insurgents - more than doubling its membership but so many of the new members don't believe in the Labour Party just Jeremy Corbyn.
Owen Smith can't pull out, he has to challenge Corbyn whether he wins or not. When Corbyn wins (and he will) the hate mob will move to purge the old membership and the PLP, and thats why a move against Momentum is inevitable - its sheer survival.
There is room for a realignment, with 30 or so continuity new Labour MPs joining the rump LibDems and some Cameroon Tories in a new centre party, and if the rebellion in the PLP was that small it would probably happen. But its far far bigger than that, and all these centre left MPs who have no confidence in Corbyn will not accept being branded Tories and being told to leave by new members who have been around for only a few months. They'll say this is OUR party and YOU are the coup, not us.
I don't see anyone that has both the will or the power to engage in that kind of fightback. If Corbyn wins - and he probably will - you can either hunker down and wait for the Momentum types to get bored or disillusioned or you can start again. It might not even be a choice if momentum start their purge first.0 -
Will any means whatsoever justify the ends ?BudG said:
Corbyn has many admirable qualities that people have bought into, but I am naive enough to think that him leading the Party into the next election is going to be anything other than a disaster, particularly if the open acrimony towards him is continuing. I want the Labour party to continue and I want it to have a chance of winning power again one day. I set out one way it might be able to happen. If there are any other feasible options, then I would be open to hearng them.John_M said:
I'm not going to rain on your parade @BudG. We live in a world where Donald Trump might be POTUS. Unicorns, Aliens, PM Corbyn, I'm ready to believe anything is possible.BudG said:
The poor showing in the polls at the moment is more to do with the constant criticism being aimed at Corbn by his MP's which is gleefully amplified by the media. A party that is seen by the voters as being split will inevitably get slaughtered in a General election and splits don't come any more blatant than three quarters of their MP's passing a vote of no confience in the leader and forcing a bloody leadership battle.John_M said:
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.BudG said:There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
It could work... couldn 't it
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together
I think this is what alot of people have (From the left, right and centre) found so offputting about Labour in the last decade or so.0 -
There'll definitely be two in Scotland (assuming Carmichael stands again), but won't be many more.Pulpstar said:
Such a shame that all 650 seats in the House of Commons are disappearing to be replaced by 600 new ones.oxfordsimon said:
This rather misses the point that Corbyn has no say in that. It was the electorate who put those MPs into the house. He can't trigger any by-elections. They are Members of Parliament and can only leave by the usual routes - not just because Corbyn feels like a purge.TGOHF said:Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
No such thing as an incumbent at the next GE0 -
Out of interest, perusing the various voting methods on wikipedia (as you do), and came across this monstrosity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method
Just think of how many threads we could have one this!!!0 -
bigjohnowls said:
There is no "and they all lived happily ever after" ending for Labour.
It is going to be bloody but FWIW.
I reckon Jezza wins (and keeps the Labour name for the members)
SDP2 is formed with about 40 - 50 splitters actually splitting.
Toies win 2020 comfortably.
Lab poor 2nd (150 - 175 MPs)
SDP poll about 22% max 10 MPs
2025 SDP2 wipeout
SDP1 had an election alliance with the Lib Dems.
Without such an alliance, SDP2 would not win any seats under FPTP.
0 -
Mr. Evershed, depending on the number of splitters, SDP2 could have a lot of airtime as the Official Opposition, or even in a secondary [in opposition] position.
If they're behind the SNP in numbers then things may be trickier.0 -
I think you need to have a long hard look at yourself young man....RobD said:Out of interest, perusing the various voting methods on wikipedia (as you do), and came across this monstrosity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method
Just think of how many threads we could have one this!!!0 -
I think there were about 60 completely unchanged seats in the 1st Draft English boundary review that was cancelled in 2012.david_herdson said:
There'll definitely be two in Scotland (assuming Carmichael stands again), but won't be many more.Pulpstar said:
Such a shame that all 650 seats in the House of Commons are disappearing to be replaced by 600 new ones.oxfordsimon said:
This rather misses the point that Corbyn has no say in that. It was the electorate who put those MPs into the house. He can't trigger any by-elections. They are Members of Parliament and can only leave by the usual routes - not just because Corbyn feels like a purge.TGOHF said:Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
No such thing as an incumbent at the next GE
I know that seems a surprisingly high figure but am sure it's right - eg every North Yorkshire seat was left unchanged from memory.0 -
Most of the 172 MPs are rock solid. The mob would have all of them deselected. But the mob are a minority faction in the new membership, and there simply isn't the majority of members in those CLPs wanting to replace the MP.taffys said:''Would put an end to the infighting for good.''
If Corbyn fights Smith off then 150 careers are effectively over, surely. You either drink the Red Kool aid and face losing your seat, or you fight on and get deselected before even getting to election.
Or you join SDP2 and lose your seat that way.
And w=from what I have seen the mob are all mouth and no walking shoes. They don't campaign. They don't administer. They can't actually run things. And what they want is hysterically contradictory. In my CLP if they want to oust myself and the other officers good luck to them - its a free vote. But the actual business of running the party would grind rapidly to a halt - its all motions and rallies and other things that talk to themselves not the electorate.
As for removing the new members, thats not what I said. Momentum can be banned. Anyone then organising for or supporting Momentum can be disciplined or expelled under rules just as they would be if organising for a rival party. But the reality is most of the new members aren't there for Momentum or the Labour Party, they are there for Corbyn. If Corbyn is no longer leader a large number will resign.0 -
Not ANY means, by any means!Pulpstar said:
Will any means whatsoever justify the ends ?BudG said:
Corbyn has many admirable qualities that people have bought into, but I am naive enough to think that him leading the Party into the next election is going to be anything other than a disaster, particularly if the open acrimony towards him is continuing. I want the Labour party to continue and I want it to have a chance of winning power again one day. I set out one way it might be able to happen. If there are any other feasible options, then I would be open to hearng them.John_M said:
I'm not going to rain on your parade @BudG. We live in a world where Donald Trump might be POTUS. Unicorns, Aliens, PM Corbyn, I'm ready to believe anything is possible.BudG said:
The poor showing in the polls at the moment is more to do with the constant criticism being aimed at Corbn by his MP's which is gleefully amplified by the media. A party that is seen by the voters as being split will inevitably get slaughtered in a General election and splits don't come any more blatant than three quarters of their MP's passing a vote of no confience in the leader and forcing a bloody leadership battle.John_M said:
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.BudG said:There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
It could work... couldn 't it
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together
I think this is what alot of people have (From the left, right and centre) found so offputting about Labour in the last decade or so.
A way out needs to be found that allows the Party to heal and allows for someone else to take over from Corbyn who is acceptable to him and his followers.0 -
You've quite obviously believed that for some time.TheScreamingEagles said:
Everyone else finds them funny.JonnyJimmy said:
Then I'll find your AV thread 'jokes' funny?TheScreamingEagles said:
You need your irony meter calibrating.JonnyJimmy said:
Maybe she needs to do a thread to educate you on why, even under AV, it's better to focus all of the PLP's resource and effort behind just one candidate.TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
AV isn't as complicated as you seem to think it is; you're not really that brilliant for understanding it.0 -
As a new party you will need people on the ground delivering leaflets, canvassing and getting out the vote to win elections - rather than airtime in parliament.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Evershed, depending on the number of splitters, SDP2 could have a lot of airtime as the Official Opposition, or even in a secondary [in opposition] position.
If they're behind the SNP in numbers then things may be trickier.0 -
I'm not entirely sure Carmichael will stand again, and am half hoping he won't. Orkney and Shetlands should be very holdable for anyone with an orange bird, mind.david_herdson said:
There'll definitely be two in Scotland (assuming Carmichael stands again), but won't be many more.Pulpstar said:
Such a shame that all 650 seats in the House of Commons are disappearing to be replaced by 600 new ones.oxfordsimon said:
This rather misses the point that Corbyn has no say in that. It was the electorate who put those MPs into the house. He can't trigger any by-elections. They are Members of Parliament and can only leave by the usual routes - not just because Corbyn feels like a purge.TGOHF said:Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
No such thing as an incumbent at the next GE
I'd like to see Clegg stay on for Hallam or wherever the boundaries of a western Sheffield seat lie.0 -
Other political discussion internet fora are available.JonnyJimmy said:
You've quite obviously believed that for some time.TheScreamingEagles said:
Everyone else finds them funny.JonnyJimmy said:
Then I'll find your AV thread 'jokes' funny?TheScreamingEagles said:
You need your irony meter calibrating.JonnyJimmy said:
Maybe she needs to do a thread to educate you on why, even under AV, it's better to focus all of the PLP's resource and effort behind just one candidate.TheScreamingEagles said:
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.MarkHopkins said:TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
AV isn't as complicated as you seem to think it is; you're not really that brilliant for understanding it.0 -
We may need a new 'specialist anorak' area of PB to be opened for such folk.Charlie_Falconer said:
I think you need to have a long hard look at yourself young man....RobD said:Out of interest, perusing the various voting methods on wikipedia (as you do), and came across this monstrosity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method
Just think of how many threads we could have one this!!!0 -
How Labour treats its women tells me all I need to know. I don't just mean in terms of leadership elections; its supporters have been vile on social media. I really felt for poor Johanna Baxter. It's trite but true; there's only one nasty party in the UK and it ain't the Tories.Pulpstar said:
Will any means whatsoever justify the ends ?BudG said:
Corbyn has many admirable qualities that people have bought into, but I am naive enough to think that him leading the Party into the next election is going to be anything other than a disaster, particularly if the open acrimony towards him is continuing. I want the Labour party to continue and I want it to have a chance of winning power again one day. I set out one way it might be able to happen. If there are any other feasible options, then I would be open to hearng them.John_M said:
I'm not going to rain on your parade @BudG. We live in a world where Donald Trump might be POTUS. Unicorns, Aliens, PM Corbyn, I'm ready to believe anything is possible.BudG said:
The poor showing in the polls at the moment is more to do with the constant criticism being aimed at Corbn by his MP's which is gleefully amplified by the media. A party that is seen by the voters as being split will inevitably get slaughtered in a General election and splits don't come any more blatant than three quarters of their MP's passing a vote of no confience in the leader and forcing a bloody leadership battle.John_M said:
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.BudG said:There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
It could work... couldn 't it
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together
I think this is what alot of people have (From the left, right and centre) found so offputting about Labour in the last decade or so.0 -
Impose a different leader and wait for them to leave.BudG said:
Someone suggested this purge of Momentum memers from the Labour Party earlier today. Their total membership is less than 10,000. If they are all Labour Party members and they are removed, what are you going to do about the quarter a million plus members who have bought into the Corbyn ideology, how are you going to stifle and ignore their democratic rights and views?Tissue_Price said:
Like I said earlier, wishful thinking. The only route out of this is to purge the party of the Momentum types, including Corbyn & McDonnell themselves.John_M said:That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.
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The Schulze method is interesting. It tries to find the condorcet winner in a single-seat election, which is the candidate that is most preferred pairwise to every other.Charlie_Falconer said:
I think you need to have a long hard look at yourself young man....RobD said:Out of interest, perusing the various voting methods on wikipedia (as you do), and came across this monstrosity:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method
Just think of how many threads we could have one this!!!
So If A is preferred to B, B is preferred to C and C is preferred to D, then A should be the winner. Simple!
But not so fast. You can get Condorcet Cycles.
What if A is preferred to B, but B is preferred to C, yet C is preferred to A? Who should be the winner then? There is no answer.
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Why is Corbo going to win then ?RochdalePioneers said:
Most of the 172 MPs are rock solid. The mob would have all of them deselected. But the mob are a minority faction in the new membership, and there simply isn't the majority of members in those CLPs wanting to replace the MP.taffys said:''Would put an end to the infighting for good.''
If Corbyn fights Smith off then 150 careers are effectively over, surely. You either drink the Red Kool aid and face losing your seat, or you fight on and get deselected before even getting to election.
Or you join SDP2 and lose your seat that way.0 -
Ishmael_X said:
If we did so we should reclaim our Anglo Saxon heritage by calling it Jefferson's method.</blockquoteDavid_Evershed said:TheScreamingEagles said:
Not quite. You also need an AV refresher thread.Richard_Nabavi said:
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidated voted in, right?TheScreamingEagles said:Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
With no more European elections, we say a sad goodbye to the d'Hondt election system
How about a thread to save the d'Hondt system by using it for our general elections.
Better still, Farage's revenge system.0
