''Getting Germany on board would be of great help, but the others can still cause problems. ''
Germany should have seen all along that by far their most important partner in this was Britain, and they should have moved mountains to keep Britain on side.
They didn't. That is a huge failure for them.
a bit like July 1914 and August 1939
Yes, this is a very common fault among German leaders.
I've been thinking about whether Labour have chosen the better candidate in Jones over Eagle. I was pro-Jones but maybe Eagle with her greater experience and profile would have been the better pick.
Mind you Eagle's launch of her candidacy was poor. Policy-lite and eyrie-fairy.
Owen Smith?
I think Owen Jones is a more memorable name and more welsh. Owen Smith should change his name quickly.
I think that's the third time I've made that mistake! And it's overshadowed my brilliant eyrie-fairy pun.
AlastairMeeks. Excellent news re your partner. I'm really pleased for you both. Best wishes.
Mr. Meeks, hope you and your other half are on the up.
He's doing well. Brilliantly so far, actually. But that is, as I am repeatedly told, no guide to future improvements and he has a long long way to go. I'm getting him back recognisably though, and for that I am grateful beyond my power to express in words.
Trump is probably a value bet for President purely because so many punters in the UK won't be able to understand why anyone in their right mind would vote for him.
I think amongst those punters in the UK were those who were unable to understand why anyone in their right mind would vote for Brexit
Enosis (/ˈɛnəsɪs/; Greek: Ένωσις, meaning "union") refers to the movement of various Greek communities that live outside Greece, for incorporation of the regions they inhabit into the Greek state. Widely known is the case of the Greek-Cypriots for union of Cyprus into Greece.
Following Greek independence, movements calling for Enosis achieved popular support among ethnic Greeks living outside the Greek nation state, culminating with the Greek annexation of the Ionian Islands in 1864, Crete in 1913 and the Dodecanese islands in 1947.
At the conclusion of World War I, Greece attempted to annex portions of Western Anatolia at the invitation of the victorious Allies of World War I, particularly British Prime Minister David Lloyd George. The attempted Enosis failed, however, when the new Turkish Republic prevailed in the resulting Greco-Turkish War of 1919–1922, after which most Anatolian Christians who had not already fled during the war were forced to relocate to Greece in the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey.
In modern times, apart from Cyprus, the call for Enosis is adopted among part of the Greeks living in southern Albania/Northern Epirus. -Wikipedia
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
That article seems to hint that some in Europe are starting to think Britain is in a strong position.
They must be unnerved by recent developments ie companies not moving and the world and its wife wanting a trade deal.
It's come within twenty-four hours of May meeting Merkel. Coincidence?
I don't fully understand how Yahoo news works - but it appears to have gone into utter meltdown over Brexit. It's by far the most horrified media outlet I have come across by the outcome four weeks ago, and is running endless scares and lamentations. I'll readily agree that there are downsides and uncertainties about Brexit, but the site appears to being edited by someone who has lost all sense of perspective and balance. I think Yahoo's finance page is quite nicely laid out, and I'm often taken by the contrast between the howls of horror about how the pound is being spanked today because of Brexit fears and the actual numbers down at the bottom which show it to be down 0.08%. Even the sponsored links are in on it - within 36 hours of the result, there was an advert for a lottery claiming that someone 'lost his job in the Brexit layoffs then won big'. So I'm a little surprised that this is reported here.
The video from CNBC is the important piece. It's a combination of guess-estimate (take it or leave it) combined with initial feedback from UK showrooms.
30% are reporting a decrease in interest for German Autos.
That may be short-lived but if it is true then, as the guy giving the interview says, it's a big deal for the Germans. We buy as many German cars as the Americans and Chinese combined.
Anything that is going to bring my next Audi down to a more reasonable price is good news to me.
Enosis was the proposed union between Greece and Cyprus - it precipitated the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974, the northern portion of which it has occupied to this day!
I've been thinking about whether Labour have chosen the better candidate in Jones over Eagle. I was pro-Jones but maybe Eagle with her greater experience and profile would have been the better pick.
Mind you Eagle's launch of her candidacy was poor. Policy-lite and eyrie-fairy.
Owen Smith?
I think Owen Jones is a more memorable name and more welsh. Owen Smith should change his name quickly.
I think that's the third time I've made that mistake! And it's overshadowed my brilliant eyrie-fairy pun.
AlastairMeeks. Excellent news re your partner. I'm really pleased for you both. Best wishes.
He's a Midwesterner. Interesting Owen Jones made a eerily correct prediction about Brexit.
Seems like he knows more about middle England than Labour.
Micheal Moore is from Flint, Michigan. He might be reading the vibes from his hometown in order to be making that prediction.
There are a lot of reports lately of something going on in Michigan with Trump's chances there, and Hillary's lead has been narrowing to about 3-5 points there, but I'm not entirely convinced Michigan is going to go to Trump.
He has got the WWC Men stitched up, just depends on whether the ladies decide they are WWC Women or just Wimmin.
Aiden Kerry I return to this thread with news @thetimes' year-on-year print sales are up 34% in Scotland. Opinion writing is what consumers want.
Why pay for it though? There is a greater breadth of informed opinion on this site that any of the broadsheets turns out. There are a bunch of folks on here whose opinion I value more than any I get offered for £1.40 a day or whatever. And I can engage directly with them, and heaven knows, on rare occasion, bring something to the discussion.
Plus I get real time updates on who the Grim Reaper has collected. Sports updates. And awful puns. Even updates on how the Second Punic Wars are going.
Nah. This place is the dogs.
Feel exactly the same. When a big story is breaking this site is far more informative than any one of the MSM sites and the comments are often far more expert and illuminating. I come here first.
Plus sometimes we send our own correspondent to the heart of the action.
The Turkey coup was mentioned by someone on here - who had picked it up from some obscure site (twitter perhaps!) a good half hour before BBC News24 even mentioned it....
1. Who hurts most if there is no deal and we revert to WTO rules? Clearly the EU, as there is such a trade imbalance,
No, for the same reason you just rejected.
We get tariffs on 40% of our stuff, and they get tariffs on 10% of their stuff.
We hurt More than they do
10% potential tariffs have already been offsetted by a 10% devaluation of the pound.
So british products will have the same price for foreigners, but german products will be 20% more expensive for british consumers, that gives a serious competitive advantage for british made products in domestic markets.
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
The twentieth century was marked by Germany serially under-estimated British resolve.
Seems maybe they are finally realising they shouldn't make the same mistake in the twenty first....
No, it's German officials being more realistic than those of the EU bureaucracy and of many of the other countries. However, we unfortunately can't negotiate only with Germany. It's an utter shambles, and I think the markets and business are hugely underestimating the scale of the problem.
The fact you want it to be "an utter shambles" does not make it so and also repeating this ad infinitum also does not make it so. The decision has been made. You don't like the decision and yes we get that, but that's democracy.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
1. Who hurts most if there is no deal and we revert to WTO rules? Clearly the EU, as there is such a trade imbalance,
No, for the same reason you just rejected.
We get tariffs on 40% of our stuff, and they get tariffs on 10% of their stuff.
We hurt More than they do
But they can ill afford that 10% and the complete cessation of our EU fees (they would still get most of them if we stay in EEA).
Makes it a useful enough bargaining chip to ensure we get an ETFA/EEA deal involving cash (from us to them) for lack of free movement of low paid EU workers.
Disqualifying EU migrating workers from Benefits until they had been here 5 years unless their home country offered benefits at least 80% of what the UL offers and from NHS unless they pay for it via private insurance or their country of origin offers equivalent benefits, would eliminate those coming here for low paid work, while not affecting those with skills (e.g. nurses) and not impact the likes of Germany and France at all.
But the point that Richard has been making (I think!) is that the EU is simply not in a position to make such deals. This would require a treaty change, which would in turn require the assent of every one of the 27 remaining member states. It's just not going to happen.
Enosis was the proposed union between Greece and Cyprus - it precipitated the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974, the northern portion of which it has occupied to this day!
Cyprus Enosis was very much a latter day version of it, the idea goes much further back than that which is why Athens was (maybe still is) technically a temporary capital with the real one being Consantinople (Istanbul)
A turkish civil war would I suspect see the Greeks occupying Northern Cyprus if they get half a chance.
He's a Midwesterner. Interesting Owen Jones made a eerily correct prediction about Brexit.
Seems like he knows more about middle England than Labour.
Micheal Moore is from Flint, Michigan. He might be reading the vibes from his hometown in order to be making that prediction.
There are a lot of reports lately of something going on in Michigan with Trump's chances there, and Hillary's lead has been narrowing to about 3-5 points there, but I'm not entirely convinced Michigan is going to go to Trump.
He has got the WWC Men stitched up, just depends on whether the ladies decide they are WWC Women or just Wimmin.
Hillary only does well with older white wimmin (pro-Hillary) and ethnic minorities (anti-Trump). She does not do well with younger women.
Enosis was the proposed union between Greece and Cyprus - it precipitated the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974, the northern portion of which it has occupied to this day!
And if it had not been for the sovereign British bases I suspect they would have taken the whole island. The Cypriot army certainly was not going to stop them.
Enosis was the proposed union between Greece and Cyprus - it precipitated the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974, the northern portion of which it has occupied to this day!
Cyprus Enosis was very much a latter day version of it, the idea goes much further back than that which is why Athens was (maybe still is) technically a temporary capital with the real one being Consantinople (Istanbul)
A turkish civil war would I suspect see the Greeks occupying Northern Cyprus if they get half a chance.
I had thought the territory of Northern Cyprus before the invasion was predominantly Turk, but it was apparently 80% Greek!
He's a Midwesterner. Interesting Owen Jones made a eerily correct prediction about Brexit.
Seems like he knows more about middle England than Labour.
Micheal Moore is from Flint, Michigan. He might be reading the vibes from his hometown in order to be making that prediction.
There are a lot of reports lately of something going on in Michigan with Trump's chances there, and Hillary's lead has been narrowing to about 3-5 points there, but I'm not entirely convinced Michigan is going to go to Trump.
It's worth listening to Mike. I think many people in the UK, including on this forum, could feel, when we were out and about with "real people", the way the wind was blowing in the 2015 GE and in the Referendum, but when we returned to the security of our friends, our media and our polls, we had a drink and said "Nah". Oops.
I've just been listening to yet more post-Brexit vox-pops on the PM programme and the level that "real people" operate at politically is so low as to make you want to despair for the future of any democracy. This doesn't mean that I think we should abandon democracy, just face up to the reality of how it works.
So it is in the USA, where populism is where it's at, and if so, DJT is also where it's at. Many, many factors are in Clinton's favour in this election, but the brainlessness of the people is not one of them.
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
That article seems to hint that some in Europe are starting to think Britain is in a strong position.
They must be unnerved by recent developments ie companies not moving and the world and its wife wanting a trade deal.
It's come within twenty-four hours of May meeting Merkel. Coincidence?
I don't fully understand how Yahoo news works - but it appears to have gone into utter meltdown over Brexit. It's by far the most horrified media outlet I have come across by the outcome four weeks ago, and is running endless scares and lamentations. I'll readily agree that there are downsides and uncertainties about Brexit, but the site appears to being edited by someone who has lost all sense of perspective and balance. I think Yahoo's finance page is quite nicely laid out, and I'm often taken by the contrast between the howls of horror about how the pound is being spanked today because of Brexit fears and the actual numbers down at the bottom which show it to be down 0.08%. Even the sponsored links are in on it - within 36 hours of the result, there was an advert for a lottery claiming that someone 'lost his job in the Brexit layoffs then won big'. So I'm a little surprised that this is reported here.
The video from CNBC is the important piece. It's a combination of guess-estimate (take it or leave it) combined with initial feedback from UK showrooms.
30% are reporting a decrease in interest for German Autos.
That may be short-lived but if it is true then, as the guy giving the interview says, it's a big deal for the Germans. We buy as many German cars as the Americans and Chinese combined.
Anything that is going to bring my next Audi down to a more reasonable price is good news to me.
Buy the same spec car with a VW badge on it. Simples.
The Russians are quite keen on the idea too, this was from the 1780s but as recently as World War I the Russians were promised Constantinople if we won (despite fighting the Crimean war against them a few decades back to stop them doing that). The idea has not died out quite as this website explains:
"ORTHODOX ENGLAND - What will happen to the Patriarchate of Constantinople once Russia has freed Istanbul?"
------------------------------------------------
Anyway here is Wikipedia on the events of the 1780s:
The Greek Plan or Greek Project is an early solution to the Eastern Question which was advanced by Catherine the Great in the early 1780s. It envisaged the partition of the Ottoman Empire between the Russian and Habsburg Empires followed by the restoration of the Byzantine Empire centered in Constantinople.
Like her predecessors, Catherine concerned herself with the Orthodox Christians under Ottoman rule; she also sponsored the Orlov Revolt in the Morea during the Russo-Turkish War of 1768–1774, and invited many Greeks like Ioannis Varvakis to settle in Russia, mainly in Crimea and New Russia. She conceived that one of her grandsons, appropriately named Constantine, would become the first emperor of the restored Byzantium. Another important consideration was Russia's goal of free access to the Mediterranean Sea through the Bosphorus, which the Ottomans controlled.
For this plan to succeed, the Great European Powers would need to agree to it and the Danube powers to cooperate. In May 1780, Catherine arranged a secret meeting with Joseph II, the Holy Roman Emperor, in Mogilyov. In a series of letters from September 1781, Catherine and Joseph discussed their plans to partition the Ottoman Empire and restore the Byzantine Empire. The Austro-Russian alliance was formalized in May 1781.
The Greek Plan was masterminded by Prince Potemkin who gave Greek names to the newly founded towns in New Russia (e.g., Odessa and Kherson). Byzantine symbolism was highlighted in new churches such as Kherson Cathedral. Another meeting of the Russian and Austrian monarchs was arranged as part of Catherine's Crimean journey of 1787. Both countries declared war on the Ottoman Empire later that year. Joseph's death in 1790, followed by the Treaty of Jassy and the Treaty of Sistova, in which Austria gained little, effectively ended the agreement.
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
Yeah, I think that it is becoming clearer by the day that this 'no negotiation before Article 50' stance is nonsense and will have be abandoned. This mess is complicated and dangerous enough for all parties as it is, without artificially making it even more unworkable.
It's an interesting piece. However I think your reading of it is better than others on the thread. How on earth could *Six* years of A50 negotiations on top of extensive pre negotiations be described a sign of British strength. Can you imagine what the Treaties being inforce for another 6 or 7 years would do to British politics now the forces Leave have unleashed are loose ? My reading of it is quite different. It's " of course they'll be a deal in the end but the British still don't realise what they've done yet. " We'll see.
1. No working government majority 2. Labour summer of Chaos, Tories summer of competence as they set out the principles for Brexit negotiation 3. Last week of September: Corbyn re-elected Leader. Chaotic angry conference 4. First week of October. May sets out platform. Announces intention to seek renewed mandate 5. 10th October. Parliament resumes. A motion “That there shall be an early parliamentary general election.” is tabled as set out in the Fixed Term Parliament Act. Labour MPs have two choices. Acquiesce and risk losing their seats quickly. Or refuse to go to the people and guarantee losing their seats slowly. 6. Motion is carried. Parliament wraps itself up before dissolving 17 working days before polling day, which will be 10th November
10th November sunset times:
Truro 4:42 Birmingham 4:22 Manchester 4:19 London 4:18 Edinburgh 4:13 Lerwick 3:42
Surely not?
They have sun in Lerwick in November? Really? Wow.
Technically yes - although usually hidden by wall-to-wall grey cloud obviously...
Is there any reason why Lerwick doesn't rhyme with Berwick?
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
The twentieth century was marked by Germany serially under-estimated British resolve.
Seems maybe they are finally realising they shouldn't make the same mistake in the twenty first....
No, it's German officials being more realistic than those of the EU bureaucracy and of many of the other countries. However, we unfortunately can't negotiate only with Germany. It's an utter shambles, and I think the markets and business are hugely underestimating the scale of the problem.
The fact you want it to be "an utter shambles" does not make it so and also repeating this ad infinitum also does not make it so. The decision has been made. You don't like the decision and yes we get that, but that's democracy.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
I don't think that is what Richard is saying. The problem is that the EU is horrendously difficult to get a decision from and negotiations with the kind of detail we are going to need become almost impossible. It is why they don't have trade deals with the US and China. It is one of the reasons why we will be better off out in the medium term. But it is also one of the reasons that negotiating an agreement with them in the sort of timescale now being discussed is going to be pretty much impossible.
I really think we should aim for an outline agreement from the start. Even that is going to be difficult.
''Getting Germany on board would be of great help, but the others can still cause problems. ''
Germany should have seen all along that by far their most important partner in this was Britain, and they should have moved mountains to keep Britain on side.
They didn't. That is a huge failure for them.
A failure based on a blind spot created by Cameron not negotiating in good faith but just going through the motions with a wink and a nod to the EU partners. Of course Germany did not move mountains. They didn't think they'd have to.
It involves the 172 MPs who cannot support Mr Corbyn declaring themselves an autonomous body within Parliament.
This new ILP could then elect a new leader and shadow cabinet and seek recognition by the Speaker as the official opposition. Her Majesty’s Official Opposition has the right to set the subject for 17 of the 20 opposition day debates in the House of Commons. It gains the chairmanship of the Public Accounts Committee and privileged seats on other committees. The Speaker of the House will select many more amendments and interventions from the opposition than from any other parliamentary grouping. The leader of the opposition would likely become the face of the critique of government in the media.
Perhaps most crucially, the ILP would get the money.
1. Who hurts most if there is no deal and we revert to WTO rules? Clearly the EU, as there is such a trade imbalance,
No, for the same reason you just rejected.
We get tariffs on 40% of our stuff, and they get tariffs on 10% of their stuff.
We hurt More than they do
10% potential tariffs have already been offsetted by a 10% devaluation of the pound.
So british products will have the same price for foreigners, but german products will be 20% more expensive for british consumers, that gives a serious competitive advantage for british made products in domestic markets.
I thought the WTO tariffs were more like 3% than 10%?
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
That article seems to hint that some in Europe are starting to think Britain is in a strong position.
They must be unnerved by recent developments ie companies not moving and the world and its wife wanting a trade deal.
It's come within twenty-four hours of May meeting Merkel. Coincidence?
I don't fully understand how Yahoo news works - but it appears to have gone into utter meltdown over Brexit. It's by far the most horrified media outlet I have come across by the outcome four weeks ago, and is running endless scares and lamentations. I'll readily agree that there are downsides and uncertainties about Brexit, but the site appears to being edited by someone who has lost all sense of perspective and balance. I think Yahoo's finance page is quite nicely laid out, and I'm often taken by the contrast between the howls of horror about how the pound is being spanked today because of Brexit fears and the actual numbers down at the bottom which show it to be down 0.08%. Even the sponsored links are in on it - within 36 hours of the result, there was an advert for a lottery claiming that someone 'lost his job in the Brexit layoffs then won big'. So I'm a little surprised that this is reported here.
The video from CNBC is the important piece. It's a combination of guess-estimate (take it or leave it) combined with initial feedback from UK showrooms.
30% are reporting a decrease in interest for German Autos.
That may be short-lived but if it is true then, as the guy giving the interview says, it's a big deal for the Germans. We buy as many German cars as the Americans and Chinese combined.
Anything that is going to bring my next Audi down to a more reasonable price is good news to me.
Buy the same spec car with a VW badge on it. Simples.
or the equivalent Seat... The Skoda may be even cheaper but won't have quite the same amount of power...
1. Who hurts most if there is no deal and we revert to WTO rules? Clearly the EU, as there is such a trade imbalance,
No, for the same reason you just rejected.
We get tariffs on 40% of our stuff, and they get tariffs on 10% of their stuff.
We hurt More than they do
But they can ill afford that 10% and the complete cessation of our EU fees (they would still get most of them if we stay in EEA).
Makes it a useful enough bargaining chip to ensure we get an ETFA/EEA deal involving cash (from us to them) for lack of free movement of low paid EU workers.
Disqualifying EU migrating workers from Benefits until they had been here 5 years unless their home country offered benefits at least 80% of what the UL offers and from NHS unless they pay for it via private insurance or their country of origin offers equivalent benefits, would eliminate those coming here for low paid work, while not affecting those with skills (e.g. nurses) and not impact the likes of Germany and France at all.
But the point that Richard has been making (I think!) is that the EU is simply not in a position to make such deals. This would require a treaty change, which would in turn require the assent of every one of the 27 remaining member states. It's just not going to happen.
Rules are there to be bent. Exhibits 1-1029485848, Greek bailout deals.
The fact you want it to be "an utter shambles" does not make it so and also repeating this ad infinitum also does not make it so. The decision has been made. You don't like the decision and yes we get that, but that's democracy.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
That article seems to hint that some in Europe are starting to think Britain is in a strong position.
They must be unnerved by recent developments ie companies not moving and the world and its wife wanting a trade deal.
It's come within twenty-four hours of May meeting Merkel. Coincidence?
I don't fully understand how Yahoo news works - but it appears to have gone into utter meltdown over Brexit. It's by far the most horrified media outlet I have come across by the outcome four weeks ago, and is running endless scares and lamentations. I'll readily agree that there are downsides and uncertainties about Brexit, but the site appears to being edited by someone who has lost all sense of perspective and balance. I think Yahoo's finance page is quite nicely laid out, and I'm often taken by the contrast between the howls of horror about how the pound is being spanked today because of Brexit fears and the actual numbers down at the bottom which show it to be down 0.08%. Even the sponsored links are in on it - within 36 hours of the result, there was an advert for a lottery claiming that someone 'lost his job in the Brexit layoffs then won big'. So I'm a little surprised that this is reported here.
The video from CNBC is the important piece. It's a combination of guess-estimate (take it or leave it) combined with initial feedback from UK showrooms.
30% are reporting a decrease in interest for German Autos.
That may be short-lived but if it is true then, as the guy giving the interview says, it's a big deal for the Germans. We buy as many German cars as the Americans and Chinese combined.
Anything that is going to bring my next Audi down to a more reasonable price is good news to me.
Buy the same spec car with a VW badge on it. Simples.
Talking to a chap from France today - he couldn't believe what has possessed us to vote Leave, thinks it will be a disaster for the UK, and that we have turned our backs on Europe. I couldn't convince him otherwise.
He also reckoned that Sarko will be president, but Marine Le Pen could win next time around.
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
Yeah, I think that it is becoming clearer by the day that this 'no negotiation before Article 50' stance is nonsense and will have be abandoned. This mess is complicated and dangerous enough for all parties as it is, without artificially making it even more unworkable.
Yes and no. There can be any amount of discussion and positioning beforehand but the actual deal will hammered out by the heads of government sitting down together in a room in Brussels with the usual horsetrading. That will only happen after the formal countdown has started. The best likely outcome is the UK sets out its position beforehand, negotiates some support for it from individual governments and agrees a fixed list of negotiation points with the EU Council before going ahead on Article 50. Whatever happens the EU side will be in control of the process.
The FT has an article on Four scenarios: how Brexit process could unfold (paywall may need to Google it) . I don't necessarily agree the scenarios are exactly as laid out, but the article is interesting because it exposes the assumptions behind each one. My guess is that it is going to get bogged down. No-one will want to do anything drastic, but equally there is unlikely to be a quickly implementable alternative solution that keeps most of what we want from our current arrangement.
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
That article seems to hint that some in Europe are starting to think Britain is in a strong position.
They must be unnerved by recent developments ie companies not moving and the world and its wife wanting a trade deal.
It's come within twenty-four hours of May meeting Merkel. Coincidence?
I don't fully understand how Yahoo news works - but it appears to have gone into utter meltdown over Brexit. It's by far the most horrified media outlet I have come across by the outcome four weeks ago, and is running endless scares and lamentations. I'll readily agree that there are downsides and uncertainties about Brexit, but the site appears to being edited by someone who has lost all sense of perspective and balance. I think Yahoo's finance page is quite nicely laid out, and I'm often taken by the contrast between the howls of horror about how the pound is being spanked today because of Brexit fears and the actual numbers down at the bottom which show it to be down 0.08%. Even the sponsored links are in on it - within 36 hours of the result, there was an advert for a lottery claiming that someone 'lost his job in the Brexit layoffs then won big'. So I'm a little surprised that this is reported here.
The video from CNBC is the important piece. It's a combination of guess-estimate (take it or leave it) combined with initial feedback from UK showrooms.
30% are reporting a decrease in interest for German Autos.
That may be short-lived but if it is true then, as the guy giving the interview says, it's a big deal for the Germans. We buy as many German cars as the Americans and Chinese combined.
Anything that is going to bring my next Audi down to a more reasonable price is good news to me.
Buy the same spec car with a VW badge on it. Simples.
Enosis was the proposed union between Greece and Cyprus - it precipitated the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974, the northern portion of which it has occupied to this day!
Cyprus Enosis was very much a latter day version of it, the idea goes much further back than that which is why Athens was (maybe still is) technically a temporary capital with the real one being Consantinople (Istanbul)
A turkish civil war would I suspect see the Greeks occupying Northern Cyprus if they get half a chance.
I had thought the territory of Northern Cyprus before the invasion was predominantly Turk, but it was apparently 80% Greek!
Oh yes- go on a trip to Cyprus and go on a guided coach tour and you will get chapter and verse and chapter and verse and chapter and verse.
They won't mention things like "No Turks or Dogs" signs outside restaurants prior to 1974 though.
However after 1974 Turkey shipped a lot of Anatolian Turks to Northern Cyprus which has not gone down well even with the Turkish Cypriots (who are turkish speaking and muslim but basically the same ethnic group as the Greek Cypriots).
Could get very interesting in Cyprus if Turkey goes wrong. Wouldn't put the Russians past getting involved to "guarantee their security"
1. Who hurts most if there is no deal and we revert to WTO rules? Clearly the EU, as there is such a trade imbalance,
No, for the same reason you just rejected.
We get tariffs on 40% of our stuff, and they get tariffs on 10% of their stuff.
We hurt More than they do
But they can ill afford that 10% and the complete cessation of our EU fees (they would still get most of them if we stay in EEA).
Makes it a useful enough bargaining chip to ensure we get an ETFA/EEA deal involving cash (from us to them) for lack of free movement of low paid EU workers.
Disqualifying EU migrating workers from Benefits until they had been here 5 years unless their home country offered benefits at least 80% of what the UL offers and from NHS unless they pay for it via private insurance or their country of origin offers equivalent benefits, would eliminate those coming here for low paid work, while not affecting those with skills (e.g. nurses) and not impact the likes of Germany and France at all.
But the point that Richard has been making (I think!) is that the EU is simply not in a position to make such deals. This would require a treaty change, which would in turn require the assent of every one of the 27 remaining member states. It's just not going to happen.
Rules are there to be bent. Exhibits 1-1029485848, Greek bailout deals.
From what I gather there was a question about Owen Smith and Corbyn went on a rant about big pharma (presumably because Smith was a former lobbyist for Pfizer at one point).
"‘I hope Owen will fully agree with me that our NHS should be free at the point of use, should be run by publicly employed workers working for the NHS not for private contractors, and medical research shouldn’t be farmed out to big pharmaceutical companies like Pfizer and others but should be funded through the Medical Research Council.’"
And using drugs made by the Department of Health.
Oh wait...
The state must provide everything comrade.
I don't know if this figure being banded around on social media is correct but they are saying that private pharma companies invest £88bn into the NHS in terms of R&D and bringing new medicines. And Corbyn by the sounds of it wants that gone?
They are practically Charities.
All hail private Pharma
The government should just plain buy shares in GSK, and hold them as a silent partner. That way they'd be able to share in the successes of British R&D (They'd have also done quite well over the last year...)
I hope you are not thinking about what a government tender offer would do to your share price...
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
That article seems to hint that some in Europe are starting to think Britain is in a strong position.
They must be unnerved by recent developments ie companies not moving and the world and its wife wanting a trade deal.
It's come within twenty-four hours of May meeting Merkel. Coincidence?
I don't fully understand how Yahoo news works - but it appears to have gone into utter meltdown over Brexit. It's by far the most horrified media outlet I have come across by the outcome four weeks ago, and is running endless scares and lamentations. I'll readily agree that there are downsides and uncertainties about Brexit, but the site appears to being edited by someone who has lost all sense of perspective and balance. I think Yahoo's finance page is quite nicely laid out, and I'm often taken by the contrast between the howls of horror about how the pound is being spanked today because of Brexit fears and the actual numbers down at the bottom which show it to be down 0.08%. Even the sponsored links are in on it - within 36 hours of the result, there was an advert for a lottery claiming that someone 'lost his job in the Brexit layoffs then won big'. So I'm a little surprised that this is reported here.
The video from CNBC is the important piece. It's a combination of guess-estimate (take it or leave it) combined with initial feedback from UK showrooms.
30% are reporting a decrease in interest for German Autos.
That may be short-lived but if it is true then, as the guy giving the interview says, it's a big deal for the Germans. We buy as many German cars as the Americans and Chinese combined.
Anything that is going to bring my next Audi down to a more reasonable price is good news to me.
Buy the same spec car with a VW badge on it. Simples.
Except you then have a VW. Instead of an Audi.
Ok I can be a snob at times.
VWs are terrific cars
I always buy VWs (but not this time if Frau Merkel isn't nice)
What does the current Labour party really want? Does it simply want to be a party of protest and virtue signalling that ignores all of the hard choices a government actually faces? If so, they might as well stay with Corbyn.
Corbyn is utterly useless and Labour made a terrible mistake in electing him. But he is also a symptom rather than the problem and if Owen Smith is going to challenge him in any material way he needs to address the real issue: what is Labour for? I would be genuinely interested in what our more Labour inclined posters had to say in answer to that question.
What is Labour for?
I would suggest: To help assist the poor, the working poor and the disadvantaged better their lot in society and make the state assist those with low aspirations to want to improve. And to ensure that those who can but will not engage with that program find it difficult to refuse to engage with it.
Instead of pissong money away making people dependent on the state so they will support Labour for ever. (which was GB's policy.. and effectively Scottish Labour's downfall)
The implications of that policy for education, and for those who want to do better would be immense. No grade inflation, concentration on skills etc.. And a rooting out of those content to do nothing or who accept meiocrity when more is possible.
It would require practical politicians who knew what they were talking about: so without a change in the average Labour MP, unlikely to happen. Political degrees and Spads need not apply.
A properly carried out policy is needed to change the mindset of people who don't succeed because they don't want to. (or need to).
Enosis was the proposed union between Greece and Cyprus - it precipitated the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974, the northern portion of which it has occupied to this day!
Cyprus Enosis was very much a latter day version of it, the idea goes much further back than that which is why Athens was (maybe still is) technically a temporary capital with the real one being Consantinople (Istanbul)
A turkish civil war would I suspect see the Greeks occupying Northern Cyprus if they get half a chance.
I had thought the territory of Northern Cyprus before the invasion was predominantly Turk, but it was apparently 80% Greek!
Oh yes- go on a trip to Cyprus and go on a guided coach tour and you will get chapter and verse and chapter and verse and chapter and verse.
They won't mention things like "No Turks or Dogs" signs outside restaurants prior to 1974 though.
However after 1974 Turkey shipped a lot of Anatolian Turks to Northern Cyprus which has not gone down well even with the Turkish Cypriots (who are turkish speaking and muslim but basically the same ethnic group as the Greek Cypriots).
Could get very interesting in Cyprus if Turkey goes wrong. Wouldn't put the Russians past getting involved to "guarantee their security"
In 1983 the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) declared independence, although Turkey is the only country that recognizes it.[37] The international community considers the TRNC's territory as Turkish-occupied territory of the Republic of Cyprus.[38] The occupation is viewed as illegal under international law, amounting to illegal occupation of European Union territory since Cyprus became its member.[39]
I wonder how many people wot have a strong opinion of the Israel-Palestine dispute have an opinion on the Cyprus dispute?
It's an interesting intervention from an interesting politician. However it doesn't go beyond applying pressure to the wound and elevating the limb. How does it help Labour to shift from an unpopular policy position to an undeliverable one ? Unless she actually think EU immigration has caused all these complex, decades old problem in ex industrial areas which she clearly doesn't.
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
That article seems to hint that some in Europe are starting to think Britain is in a strong position.
They must be unnerved by recent developments ie companies not moving and the world and its wife wanting a trade deal.
It's come within twenty-four hours of May meeting Merkel. Coincidence?
I don't fully understand how Yahoo news works - but it appears to have gone into utter meltdown over Brexit. It's by far the most horrified media outlet I have come across by the outcome four weeks ago, and is running endless scares and lamentations. I'll readily agree that there are downsides and uncertainties about Brexit, but the site appears to being edited by someone who has lost all sense of perspective and balance. I think Yahoo's finance page is quite nicely laid out, and I'm often taken by the contrast between the howls of horror about how the pound is being spanked today because of Brexit fears and the actual numbers down at the bottom which show it to be down 0.08%. Even the sponsored links are in on it - within 36 hours of the result, there was an advert for a lottery claiming that someone 'lost his job in the Brexit layoffs then won big'. So I'm a little surprised that this is reported here.
The video from CNBC is the important piece. It's a combination of guess-estimate (take it or leave it) combined with initial feedback from UK showrooms.
30% are reporting a decrease in interest for German Autos.
That may be short-lived but if it is true then, as the guy giving the interview says, it's a big deal for the Germans. We buy as many German cars as the Americans and Chinese combined.
Anything that is going to bring my next Audi down to a more reasonable price is good news to me.
Buy the same spec car with a VW badge on it. Simples.
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
The twentieth century was marked by Germany serially under-estimated British resolve.
Seems maybe they are finally realising they shouldn't make the same mistake in the twenty first....
No, it's German officials being more realistic than those of the EU bureaucracy and of many of the other countries. However, we unfortunately can't negotiate only with Germany. It's an utter shambles, and I think the markets and business are hugely underestimating the scale of the problem.
The fact you want it to be "an utter shambles" does not make it so and also repeating this ad infinitum also does not make it so. The decision has been made. You don't like the decision and yes we get that, but that's democracy.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
I don't think that is what Richard is saying. The problem is that the EU is horrendously difficult to get a decision from and negotiations with the kind of detail we are going to need become almost impossible. It is why they don't have trade deals with the US and China. It is one of the reasons why we will be better off out in the medium term. But it is also one of the reasons that negotiating an agreement with them in the sort of timescale now being discussed is going to be pretty much impossible.
I really think we should aim for an outline agreement from the start. Even that is going to be difficult.
The EU is a massive kludge. Remember, it took three days of talks to agree a common statement on the Hague verdict re the South China Sea.
Our trade with the EU is as you might expect; we have three large partners, seven or eight modest ones and the rest are lost in the noise (other than the Netherlands which is a special case). Unfortunately, we can't negotiate with the dozen or so we're actually interested in.
In terms of tariffs, based on a simple 10% rate (correct for cars, too low/high for other categories) and 2015 trade figures, we'd levy £29.1 billion and be charged £22.3 billion.
Lack of legal experience. Not that stopped Gove or Grayling.
Oh so it's one rule for the 2 blokes and a different one for the woman. Textbook definition of sexism. Oaf.
To be fair Charlie Falconer, it is rumoured that both Anna Soubry and Dominic Raab refused to serve under Liz Truss for those exact reasons.
She's also very young in comparison to her predecessors and younger than both Soubry (by a mile) and Raab. Some people have problems with working for youngsters. Ego.
Also known in her constituency as 'The Tory Trollop'!
This from the 'Turnip Taliban' of deepest Norfolk?
People from Norfolk are weird, especially when it comes to sex. Down there sex is a relative thing.
I was in a meeting with a friend and client yesterday talking about a common practice in his industry.
He said "it's a bit like f**king your sister. Everyone does it, but no one likes to talk about it"
In surely more important news, I'm in the Concorde Room at Terminal 5, Heathrow. I've finally made it. Now it's all downhill. *sob*
I'm en route to Zimbabwe, which should give me an insight into our post-Brexit future, if Nabavi is to be believed.
Yay for Mr Meeks' goodish news.
From wha I read and have been told you will be surprised how, despite 30 odd years of Mugabe, the place actually functions reasonably well and has rather better Infrastructure than most of Africa (and is in some ways still quite British - even Mugabe lives in a road called Chancellor Avenue next to the Cricket Ground and the Royal Harare Golf Club) just be careful not to raise any nationalist passions - there is still resentment at 100 years of second class treatment.
Rules are there to be bent. Exhibits 1-1029485848, Greek bailout deals.
It's not a case of bending the rules, though. I agree that Eurocrats are extremely creative at doing so, and maybe they will pull something out of a hat. However, the problem is deeper than that: it is "who are we negotiating with, and will they all be able to agree in a reasonable timescale?" And that's without even beginning to worry about the facts that we don't yet have a position, and that our lead negotiator seems to have completely unrealistic expectations.
The references to the glorious era of Ed Miliband earlier on this thread (or possibly the last one, it is hard to keep up these days) shows the problem that Labour faces. One of the many reasons he lost in 2015 was that he had no coherent program or ideas about how the country should be run. He had some vaguely interesting critiques of what was wrong and he jumped upon a few bandwagons that had rolled by but any concept of a program for government was completely missing.
If you go back to 2010 the problem was the same. Brown fought a campaign on not being a Tory. He refused to have a spending review or even acknowledge that running the largest deficit in UK history was a problem. He criticised every Tory idea for cuts and had none of his own, on purpose and as a matter of policy.
So you have to go back to the days of Blair to find a Labour party that had anything like a program for government. And much of what he proposed would find little favour with the current Labour party. The internal market, PFI, City Academies, the retention of the Thatcherite rules regulating trade unions and industrial action, the odd privatisation.
What does the current Labour party really want? Does it simply want to be a party of protest and virtue signalling that ignores all of the hard choices a government actually faces? If so, they might as well stay with Corbyn.
If not, what are they proposing? The only idea I have heard so far from Owen Smith was £200bn of public QE. That sounds initially absurd although possibly less so to those who heard Martin Wolf's program on R4 this morning which was a bit woolly but did emphasise the extent of the mess we are in. Surely there has to be more than that though. How do they think they can improve the opportunities and lot of the have nots and the not getting any more for years and years of our society?
Corbyn is utterly useless and Labour made a terrible mistake in electing him. But he is also a symptom rather than the problem and if Owen Smith is going to challenge him in any material way he needs to address the real issue: what is Labour for? I would be genuinely interested in what our more Labour inclined posters had to say in answer to that question.
Superb post. You just don't get this level of insight and analysis anywhere else than pb.com.
Very kind. Some substantive answers would have been nice though!
You think I might know how to fix the Labour Party? Sheezh.
Lack of legal experience. Not that stopped Gove or Grayling.
Oh so it's one rule for the 2 blokes and a different one for the woman. Textbook definition of sexism. Oaf.
To be fair Charlie Falconer, it is rumoured that both Anna Soubry and Dominic Raab refused to serve under Liz Truss for those exact reasons.
She's also very young in comparison to her predecessors and younger than both Soubry (by a mile) and Raab. Some people have problems with working for youngsters. Ego.
Also known in her constituency as 'The Tory Trollop'!
This from the 'Turnip Taliban' of deepest Norfolk?
People from Norfolk are weird, especially when it comes to sex. Down there sex is a relative thing.
I was in a meeting with a friend and client yesterday talking about a common practice in his industry.
He said "it's a bit like f**king your sister. Everyone does it, but no one likes to talk about it"
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
That article seems to hint that some in Europe are starting to think Britain is in a strong position.
They must be unnerved by recent developments ie companies not moving and the world and its wife wanting a trade deal.
It's come within twenty-four hours of May meeting Merkel. Coincidence?
I don't fully understand how Yahoo news works - but it appears to have gone into utter meltdown over Brexit. It's by far the most horrified media outlet I have come across by the outcome four weeks ago, and is running endless scares and lamentations. I'll readily agree that there are downsides and uncertainties about Brexit, but the site appears to being edited by someone who has lost all sense of perspective and balance. I think Yahoo's finance page is quite nicely laid out, and I'm often taken by the contrast between the howls of horror about how the pound is being spanked today because of Brexit fears and the actual numbers down at the bottom which show it to be down 0.08%. Even the sponsored links are in on it - within 36 hours of the result, there was an advert for a lottery claiming that someone 'lost his job in the Brexit layoffs then won big'. So I'm a little surprised that this is reported here.
The video from CNBC is the important piece. It's a combination of guess-estimate (take it or leave it) combined with initial feedback from UK showrooms.
30% are reporting a decrease in interest for German Autos.
That may be short-lived but if it is true then, as the guy giving the interview says, it's a big deal for the Germans. We buy as many German cars as the Americans and Chinese combined.
Anything that is going to bring my next Audi down to a more reasonable price is good news to me.
Buy the same spec car with a VW badge on it. Simples.
It involves the 172 MPs who cannot support Mr Corbyn declaring themselves an autonomous body within Parliament.
This new ILP could then elect a new leader and shadow cabinet and seek recognition by the Speaker as the official opposition. Her Majesty’s Official Opposition has the right to set the subject for 17 of the 20 opposition day debates in the House of Commons. It gains the chairmanship of the Public Accounts Committee and privileged seats on other committees. The Speaker of the House will select many more amendments and interventions from the opposition than from any other parliamentary grouping. The leader of the opposition would likely become the face of the critique of government in the media.
Perhaps most crucially, the ILP would get the money.
What would be the impact re-General Election campaign media coverage? Allocation of PPBs etc is based on support gained at the previous election , but the new grouping would not have contested the last election under its new banner which might mean it only has entitlement to a single PPB. Similar questions would arise re-campaign coverage by BBC /ITN etc who might be obliged to treat the ILP as a new party without a previous electoral history.
1. Who hurts most if there is no deal and we revert to WTO rules? Clearly the EU, as there is such a trade imbalance,
No, for the same reason you just rejected.
We get tariffs on 40% of our stuff, and they get tariffs on 10% of their stuff.
We hurt More than they do
But they can ill afford that 10% and the complete cessation of our EU fees (they would still get most of them if we stay in EEA).
Makes it a useful enough bargaining chip to ensure we get an ETFA/EEA deal involving cash (from us to them) for lack of free movement of low paid EU workers.
Disqualifying EU migrating workers from Benefits until they had been here 5 years unless their home country offered benefits at least 80% of what the UL offers and from NHS unless they pay for it via private insurance or their country of origin offers equivalent benefits, would eliminate those coming here for low paid work, while not affecting those with skills (e.g. nurses) and not impact the likes of Germany and France at all.
But the point that Richard has been making (I think!) is that the EU is simply not in a position to make such deals. This would require a treaty change, which would in turn require the assent of every one of the 27 remaining member states. It's just not going to happen.
Workers living in Liechtenstein generally do not need any kind of permit, regardless of their nationality. A permit is, however, required for apprenticeship positions. These positions may only be offered by employers with a training permit. Workers living outside Liechtenstein, known as "cross-border commuters", are subject to a range of different provisions in order to receive a permit. For more information visit the page on cross-border commuters. Restrictive right of residence Liechtenstein operates a restrictive policy when it comes to living in the country. Foreign nationals working in Liechtenstein are generally not allowed to live in the Principality, even if they are employed by a Liechtenstein company. In order to be allowed to live in Liechtenstein, foreign workers must apply for a residence permit. There are 56 such residence permits (B) granted each year for EEA citizens who already work in Liechtenstein. Half of these are awarded via a lottery; the rest are awarded by the government. The lotteries are held each spring and autumn. Swiss citizens are not allowed to take part in these lotteries. Instead, there are twelve permits available each year for Swiss citizens. All of these permits are awarded by the government.
Lack of legal experience. Not that stopped Gove or Grayling.
Oh so it's one rule for the 2 blokes and a different one for the woman. Textbook definition of sexism. Oaf.
To be fair Charlie Falconer, it is rumoured that both Anna Soubry and Dominic Raab refused to serve under Liz Truss for those exact reasons.
She's also very young in comparison to her predecessors and younger than both Soubry (by a mile) and Raab. Some people have problems with working for youngsters. Ego.
Also known in her constituency as 'The Tory Trollop'!
This from the 'Turnip Taliban' of deepest Norfolk?
People from Norfolk are weird, especially when it comes to sex. Down there sex is a relative thing.
I was in a meeting with a friend and client yesterday talking about a common practice in his industry.
He said "it's a bit like f**king your sister. Everyone does it, but no one likes to talk about it"
1. Who hurts most if there is no deal and we revert to WTO rules? Clearly the EU, as there is such a trade imbalance,
No, for the same reason you just rejected.
We get tariffs on 40% of our stuff, and they get tariffs on 10% of their stuff.
We hurt More than they do
10% potential tariffs have already been offsetted by a 10% devaluation of the pound.
So british products will have the same price for foreigners, but german products will be 20% more expensive for british consumers, that gives a serious competitive advantage for british made products in domestic markets.
I thought the WTO tariffs were more like 3% than 10%?
And I thought we'd be looking at the EU's common external tariff - as far as I know it's what they apply to world + wife.
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
The twentieth century was marked by Germany serially under-estimated British resolve.
Seems maybe they are finally realising they shouldn't make the same mistake in the twenty first....
No, it's German officials being more realistic than those of the EU bureaucracy and of many of the other countries. However, we unfortunately can't negotiate only with Germany. It's an utter shambles, and I think the markets and business are hugely underestimating the scale of the problem.
The fact you want it to be "an utter shambles" does not make it so and also repeating this ad infinitum also does not make it so. The decision has been made. You don't like the decision and yes we get that, but that's democracy.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
I don't think that is what Richard is saying. The problem is that the EU is horrendously difficult to get a decision from and negotiations with the kind of detail we are going to need become almost impossible. It is why they don't have trade deals with the US and China. It is one of the reasons why we will be better off out in the medium term. But it is also one of the reasons that negotiating an agreement with them in the sort of timescale now being discussed is going to be pretty much impossible.
I really think we should aim for an outline agreement from the start. Even that is going to be difficult.
Ok fair enough . Perhaps I misunderstood the nuance of the original post.
The constant talking down and kicking off about democratic decisions does though tend to obscure the more important messages and points from a poster. The good and very valuable information just gets lost in the overall sour grape approach.
What does the current Labour party really want? Does it simply want to be a party of protest and virtue signalling that ignores all of the hard choices a government actually faces? If so, they might as well stay with Corbyn.
Corbyn is utterly useless and Labour made a terrible mistake in electing him. But he is also a symptom rather than the problem and if Owen Smith is going to challenge him in any material way he needs to address the real issue: what is Labour for? I would be genuinely interested in what our more Labour inclined posters had to say in answer to that question.
What is Labour for?
I would suggest: To help assist the poor, the working poor and the disadvantaged better their lot in society and make the state assist those with low aspirations to want to improve. And to ensure that those who can but will not engage with that program find it difficult to refuse to engage with it.
Instead of pissong money away making people dependent on the state so they will support Labour for ever. (which was GB's policy.. and effectively Scottish Labour's downfall)
The implications of that policy for education, and for those who want to do better would be immense. No grade inflation, concentration on skills etc.. And a rooting out of those content to do nothing or who accept meiocrity when more is possible.
It would require practical politicians who knew what they were talking about: so without a change in the average Labour MP, unlikely to happen. Political degrees and Spads need not apply.
A properly carried out policy is needed to change the mindset of people who don't succeed because they don't want to. (or need to).
Thanks. I could vote for such an agenda if I was persuaded it was going to be carried out with reasonable competence by people who actually knew what they were doing and were conscious of the need not to kill various golden geese which keep the show on the road. There is clearly ample room for such an agenda. Despite her warm words I suspect May will prove to be more old style Conservative than Cameron, Osborne and Gove were.
Enosis was the proposed union between Greece and Cyprus - it precipitated the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974, the northern portion of which it has occupied to this day!
Cyprus Enosis was very much a latter day version of it, the idea goes much further back than that which is why Athens was (maybe still is) technically a temporary capital with the real one being Consantinople (Istanbul)
A turkish civil war would I suspect see the Greeks occupying Northern Cyprus if they get half a chance.
I can't believe PB is talking about partitions and civil war in Turkey.
At present neither Greece nor Cyprus is under any condition or intention of annexing turkish controlled territory. Both are bankrupt eurozone members with gutted military and civilian infrastructure, and political systems that reek.
For all talk Turkey is a state and not a clown circus that it's bordering neighbours are.
It will require a significant externally imposed reform and economic aid (not bailouts of death) to rebuild a semblance of a functioning state in the countries surrounding Turkey, that will be capable of containing Turkey or administering portions of it.
Although Greece was rebuilt once by the americans to combat communism, they failed to reform it's political and civil service in order to make Greece a viable state in the long term.
We get tariffs on 40% of our stuff, and they get tariffs on 10% of their stuff.
We hurt More than they do
But they can ill afford that 10% and the complete cessation of our EU fees (they would still get most of them if we stay in EEA).
Makes it a useful enough bargaining chip to ensure we get an ETFA/EEA deal involving cash (from us to them) for lack of free movement of low paid EU workers.
Disqualifying EU migrating workers from Benefits until they had been here 5 years unless their home country offered benefits at least 80% of what the UL offers and from NHS unless they pay for it via private insurance or their country of origin offers equivalent benefits, would eliminate those coming here for low paid work, while not affecting those with skills (e.g. nurses) and not impact the likes of Germany and France at all.
But the point that Richard has been making (I think!) is that the EU is simply not in a position to make such deals. This would require a treaty change, which would in turn require the assent of every one of the 27 remaining member states. It's just not going to happen.
Workers living in Liechtenstein generally do not need any kind of permit, regardless of their nationality. A permit is, however, required for apprenticeship positions. These positions may only be offered by employers with a training permit. Workers living outside Liechtenstein, known as "cross-border commuters", are subject to a range of different provisions in order to receive a permit. For more information visit the page on cross-border commuters. Restrictive right of residence Liechtenstein operates a restrictive policy when it comes to living in the country. Foreign nationals working in Liechtenstein are generally not allowed to live in the Principality, even if they are employed by a Liechtenstein company. In order to be allowed to live in Liechtenstein, foreign workers must apply for a residence permit. There are 56 such residence permits (B) granted each year for EEA citizens who already work in Liechtenstein. Half of these are awarded via a lottery; the rest are awarded by the government. The lotteries are held each spring and autumn. Swiss citizens are not allowed to take part in these lotteries. Instead, there are twelve permits available each year for Swiss citizens. All of these permits are awarded by the government.
The fact you want it to be "an utter shambles" does not make it so and also repeating this ad infinitum also does not make it so. The decision has been made. You don't like the decision and yes we get that, but that's democracy.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
Try growing up.
Try it yourself. Also try and stop whining and bleating then about a democratic decision. It's becoming boring and very repetitive. As I said up thread the good points you make are just lost in the bile poured out because you didn't get your own way.
EEA rules which have been unanimously agreed in a treaty ratified by 31 countries allow an exception for Liechtenstein, a country so small that hardly anyone knows where it is. So what?
1. Who hurts most if there is no deal and we revert to WTO rules? Clearly the EU, as there is such a trade imbalance,
No, for the same reason you just rejected.
We get tariffs on 40% of our stuff, and they get tariffs on 10% of their stuff.
We hurt More than they do
But they can ill afford that 10% and the complete cessation of our EU fees (they would still get most of them if we stay in EEA).
Makes it a useful enough bargaining chip to ensure we get an ETFA/EEA deal involving cash (from us to them) for lack of free movement of low paid EU workers.
Disqualifying EU migrating workers from Benefits until they had been here 5 years unless their home country offered benefits at least 80% of what the UL offers and from NHS unless they pay for it via private insurance or their country of origin offers equivalent benefits, would eliminate those coming here for low paid work, while not affecting those with skills (e.g. nurses) and not impact the likes of Germany and France at all.
But the point that Richard has been making (I think!) is that the EU is simply not in a position to make such deals. This would require a treaty change, which would in turn require the assent of every one of the 27 remaining member states. It's just not going to happen.
Try it yourself. Also try and stop whining and bleating then about a democratic decision. It's becoming boring and very repetitive. As I said up thread the good points you make are just lost in the bile poured out because you didn't get your own way.
You are an idiot, frankly. I have never whined or bleated about the decision. I fully support implementing it, I would not vote for a party which tried to renege on it, and if I were able to do anything to help make a success of it I would.
However, that doesn't alter the fact that the practicalities of the exit negotiations are daunting.
Enosis was the proposed union between Greece and Cyprus - it precipitated the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974, the northern portion of which it has occupied to this day!
Cyprus Enosis was very much a latter day version of it, the idea goes much further back than that which is why Athens was (maybe still is) technically a temporary capital with the real one being Consantinople (Istanbul)
A turkish civil war would I suspect see the Greeks occupying Northern Cyprus if they get half a chance.
I had thought the territory of Northern Cyprus before the invasion was predominantly Turk, but it was apparently 80% Greek!
Sunil, it depends how far back you go. Before the Greek ethnic cleansing of Turkish areas in 1963-64, Turks owned 30% of the island. After the Greek Cypriot pogroms against their Turkish compatriots, they were down to 5%.
1. Who hurts most if there is no deal and we revert to WTO rules? Clearly the EU, as there is such a trade imbalance,
No, for the same reason you just rejected.
We get tariffs on 40% of our stuff, and they get tariffs on 10% of their stuff.
We hurt More than they do
But they can ill afford that 10% and the complete cessation of our EU fees (they would still get most of them if we stay in EEA).
Makes it a useful enough bargaining chip to ensure we get an ETFA/EEA deal involving cash (from us to them) for lack of free movement of low paid EU workers.
Disqualifying EU migrating workers from Benefits until they had been here 5 years unless their home country offered benefits at least 80% of what the UL offers and from NHS unless they pay for it via private insurance or their country of origin offers equivalent benefits, would eliminate those coming here for low paid work, while not affecting those with skills (e.g. nurses) and not impact the likes of Germany and France at all.
But the point that Richard has been making (I think!) is that the EU is simply not in a position to make such deals. This would require a treaty change, which would in turn require the assent of every one of the 27 remaining member states. It's just not going to happen.
Enosis was the proposed union between Greece and Cyprus - it precipitated the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974, the northern portion of which it has occupied to this day!
Cyprus Enosis was very much a latter day version of it, the idea goes much further back than that which is why Athens was (maybe still is) technically a temporary capital with the real one being Consantinople (Istanbul)
A turkish civil war would I suspect see the Greeks occupying Northern Cyprus if they get half a chance.
I can't believe PB is talking about partitions and civil war in Turkey.
At present neither Greece nor Cyprus is under any condition or intention of annexing turkish controlled territory. Both are bankrupt eurozone members with gutted military and civilian infrastructure, and political systems that reek.
For all talk Turkey is a state and not a clown circus that it's bordering neighbours are.
It will require a significant externally imposed reform and economic aid (not bailouts of death) to rebuild a semblance of a functioning state in the countries surrounding Turkey, that will be capable of containing Turkey or administering portions of it.
Although Greece was rebuilt once by the americans to combat communism, they failed to reform it's political and civil service in order to make Greece a viable state in the long term.
Quite so. Any suggestion that Greece and Cyprus could take on even a small proportion of the Turkish army is a joke.
1. Who hurts most if there is no deal and we revert to WTO rules? Clearly the EU, as there is such a trade imbalance,
No, for the same reason you just rejected.
We get tariffs on 40% of our stuff, and they get tariffs on 10% of their stuff.
We hurt More than they do
But they can ill afford that 10% and the complete cessation of our EU fees (they would still get most of them if we stay in EEA).
Makes it a useful enough bargaining chip to ensure we get an ETFA/EEA deal involving cash (from us to them) for lack of free movement of low paid EU workers.
Disqualifying EU migrating workers from Benefits until they had been here 5 years unless their home country offered benefits at least 80% of what the UL offers and from NHS unless they pay for it via private insurance or their country of origin offers equivalent benefits, would eliminate those coming here for low paid work, while not affecting those with skills (e.g. nurses) and not impact the likes of Germany and France at all.
But the point that Richard has been making (I think!) is that the EU is simply not in a position to make such deals. This would require a treaty change, which would in turn require the assent of every one of the 27 remaining member states. It's just not going to happen.
Liechtenstein is 160 square km, which is smaller than Charles's living room. They get a pass on FoM for what I hope are blindingly obvious reasons.
PS Pedantry drives me to add that Liechtenstein is one of only two doubly landlocked countries in the world. All the more reason for its exceptionalism!
The fact you want it to be "an utter shambles" does not make it so and also repeating this ad infinitum also does not make it so. The decision has been made. You don't like the decision and yes we get that, but that's democracy.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
Try growing up.
Try it yourself. Also try and stop whining and bleating then about a democratic decision. It's becoming boring and very repetitive. As I said up thread the good points you make are just lost in the bile poured out because you didn't get your own way.
We had a "democratic decision” forty years ago which a few malcontents complained about, then found some lies, half-truths and whinges which, combined with other problems not really related to the matter in hand, enabled said malcontents and those they could dupe to agree with them, to get the people to reverse that decision, to the considerable disadvantage of us all. A result which will require an inordinate amount of Parliamentary and ministerial time to deal with, thus putting more important matters to the back of the queue. Why in God’s name should we not campaign for a re-run? You did.
Lack of legal experience. Not that stopped Gove or Grayling.
Oh so it's one rule for the 2 blokes and a different one for the woman. Textbook definition of sexism. Oaf.
To be fair Charlie Falconer, it is rumoured that both Anna Soubry and Dominic Raab refused to serve under Liz Truss for those exact reasons.
She's also very young in comparison to her predecessors and younger than both Soubry (by a mile) and Raab. Some people have problems with working for youngsters. Ego.
Also known in her constituency as 'The Tory Trollop'!
This from the 'Turnip Taliban' of deepest Norfolk?
People from Norfolk are weird, especially when it comes to sex. Down there sex is a relative thing.
I was in a meeting with a friend and client yesterday talking about a common practice in his industry.
He said "it's a bit like f**king your sister. Everyone does it, but no one likes to talk about it"
The fact you want it to be "an utter shambles" does not make it so and also repeating this ad infinitum also does not make it so. The decision has been made. You don't like the decision and yes we get that, but that's democracy.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
Try growing up.
Try it yourself. Also try and stop whining and bleating then about a democratic decision. It's becoming boring and very repetitive. As I said up thread the good points you make are just lost in the bile poured out because you didn't get your own way.
We had a "democratic decision” forty years ago which a few malcontents complained about, then found some lies, half-truths and whinges which, combined with other problems not really related to the matter in hand, enabled said malcontents and those they could dupe to agree with them, to get the people to reverse that decision, to the considerable disadvantage of us all. A result which will require an inordinate amount of Parliamentary and ministerial time to deal with, thus putting more important matters to the back of the queue. Why in God’s name should we not campaign for a re-run? You did.
False analogy. The EU as is isn't the Common Market of 1975.
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
That article seems to hint that some in Europe are starting to think Britain is in a strong position.
They must be unnerved by recent developments ie companies not moving and the world and its wife wanting a trade deal.
It's come within twenty-four hours of May meeting Merkel. Coincidence?
I don't fully understand how Yahoo news works - but it appears to have gone into utter meltdown over Brexit. It's by far the most horrified media outlet I have come across by the outcome four weeks ago, and is running endless scares and lamentations. I'll readily agree that there are downsides and uncertainties about Brexit, but the site appears to being edited by someone who has lost all sense of perspective and balance. I think Yahoo's finance page is quite nicely laid out, and I'm often taken by the contrast between the howls of horror about how the pound is being spanked today because of Brexit fears and the actual numbers down at the bottom which show it to be down 0.08%. Even the sponsored links are in on it - within 36 hours of the result, there was an advert for a lottery claiming that someone 'lost his job in the Brexit layoffs then won big'. So I'm a little surprised that this is reported here.
The video from CNBC is the important piece. It's a combination of guess-estimate (take it or leave it) combined with initial feedback from UK showrooms.
30% are reporting a decrease in interest for German Autos.
That may be short-lived but if it is true then, as the guy giving the interview says, it's a big deal for the Germans. We buy as many German cars as the Americans and Chinese combined.
Anything that is going to bring my next Audi down to a more reasonable price is good news to me.
Buy the same spec car with a VW badge on it. Simples.
EEA rules which have been unanimously agreed in a treaty ratified by 31 countries allow an exception for Liechtenstein, a country so small that hardly anyone knows where it is. So what?
And how many prosecutions? Of those, how many were successful?
They prosecuted one person, but it wasn't a real case of FGM. It was more a case of cosmetic surgery which went wrong IIRC. Unsurprisingly the prosecution failed.
Enosis was the proposed union between Greece and Cyprus - it precipitated the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974, the northern portion of which it has occupied to this day!
Cyprus Enosis was very much a latter day version of it, the idea goes much further back than that which is why Athens was (maybe still is) technically a temporary capital with the real one being Consantinople (Istanbul)
A turkish civil war would I suspect see the Greeks occupying Northern Cyprus if they get half a chance.
I can't believe PB is talking about partitions and civil war in Turkey.
At present neither Greece nor Cyprus is under any condition or intention of annexing turkish controlled territory. Both are bankrupt eurozone members with gutted military and civilian infrastructure, and political systems that reek.
For all talk Turkey is a state and not a clown circus that it's bordering neighbours are.
It will require a significant externally imposed reform and economic aid (not bailouts of death) to rebuild a semblance of a functioning state in the countries surrounding Turkey, that will be capable of containing Turkey or administering portions of it.
Although Greece was rebuilt once by the americans to combat communism, they failed to reform it's political and civil service in order to make Greece a viable state in the long term.
Quite so. Any suggestion that Greece and Cyprus could take on even a small proportion of the Turkish army is a joke.
Lack of legal experience. Not that stopped Gove or Grayling.
Oh so it's one rule for the 2 blokes and a different one for the woman. Textbook definition of sexism. Oaf.
To be fair Charlie Falconer, it is rumoured that both Anna Soubry and Dominic Raab refused to serve under Liz Truss for those exact reasons.
She's also very young in comparison to her predecessors and younger than both Soubry (by a mile) and Raab. Some people have problems with working for youngsters. Ego.
Also known in her constituency as 'The Tory Trollop'!
This from the 'Turnip Taliban' of deepest Norfolk?
People from Norfolk are weird, especially when it comes to sex. Down there sex is a relative thing.
I was in a meeting with a friend and client yesterday talking about a common practice in his industry.
He said "it's a bit like f**king your sister. Everyone does it, but no one likes to talk about it"
I hope you defended your sister's honour.
I chose not to correct his use of English. He is American, after all, and one needs to make allowances.
The fact you want it to be "an utter shambles" does not make it so and also repeating this ad infinitum also does not make it so. The decision has been made. You don't like the decision and yes we get that, but that's democracy.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
Try growing up.
Try it yourself. Also try and stop whining and bleating then about a democratic decision. It's becoming boring and very repetitive. As I said up thread the good points you make are just lost in the bile poured out because you didn't get your own way.
We had a "democratic decision” forty years ago which a few malcontents complained about, then found some lies, half-truths and whinges which, combined with other problems not really related to the matter in hand, enabled said malcontents and those they could dupe to agree with them, to get the people to reverse that decision, to the considerable disadvantage of us all. A result which will require an inordinate amount of Parliamentary and ministerial time to deal with, thus putting more important matters to the back of the queue. Why in God’s name should we not campaign for a re-run? You did.
False analogy. The EU as is isn't the Common Market of 1975.
Rubbish. Altiough, yes it was the Common Market, we were part and parcel of the decision making process that took us along the road to the EU. We knew what we were doing.
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
That article seems to hint that some in Europe are starting to think Britain is in a strong position.
They must be unnerved by recent developments ie companies not moving and the world and its wife wanting a trade deal.
It's come within twenty-four hours of May meeting Merkel. Coincidence?
I don't fully understand how Yahoo news works - but it appears to have gone into utter meltdown over Brexit. It's by far the most horrified media outlet I have come across by the outcome four weeks ago, and is running endless scares and lamentations. I'll readily agree that there are downsides and uncertainties about Brexit, but the site appears to being edited by someone who has lost all sense of perspective and balance. I think Yahoo's finance page is quite nicely laid out, and I'm often taken by the contrast between the howls of horror about how the pound is being spanked today because of Brexit fears and the actual numbers down at the bottom which show it to be down 0.08%. Even the sponsored links are in on it - within 36 hours of the result, there was an advert for a lottery claiming that someone 'lost his job in the Brexit layoffs then won big'. So I'm a little surprised that this is reported here.
The video from CNBC is the important piece. It's a combination of guess-estimate (take it or leave it) combined with initial feedback from UK showrooms.
30% are reporting a decrease in interest for German Autos.
That may be short-lived but if it is true then, as the guy giving the interview says, it's a big deal for the Germans. We buy as many German cars as the Americans and Chinese combined.
Anything that is going to bring my next Audi down to a more reasonable price is good news to me.
Buy the same spec car with a VW badge on it. Simples.
And how many prosecutions? Of those, how many were successful?
They prosecuted one person, but it wasn't a real case of FGM. It was more a case of cosmetic surgery which went wrong IIRC. Unsurprisingly the prosecution failed.
The fact you want it to be "an utter shambles" does not make it so and also repeating this ad infinitum also does not make it so. The decision has been made. You don't like the decision and yes we get that, but that's democracy.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
Try growing up.
Try it yourself. Also try and stop whining and bleating then about a democratic decision. It's becoming boring and very repetitive. As I said up thread the good points you make are just lost in the bile poured out because you didn't get your own way.
We had a "democratic decision” forty years ago which a few malcontents complained about, then found some lies, half-truths and whinges which, combined with other problems not really related to the matter in hand, enabled said malcontents and those they could dupe to agree with them, to get the people to reverse that decision, to the considerable disadvantage of us all. A result which will require an inordinate amount of Parliamentary and ministerial time to deal with, thus putting more important matters to the back of the queue. Why in God’s name should we not campaign for a re-run? You did.
False analogy. The EU as is isn't the Common Market of 1975.
Rubbish. Altiough, yes it was the Common Market, we were part and parcel of the decision making process that took us along the road to the EU. We knew what we were doing.
We (the British electorate) had no say until last month - we rejected political Union at the first opportunity.
Lack of legal experience. Not that stopped Gove or Grayling.
Oh so it's one rule for the 2 blokes and a different one for the woman. Textbook definition of sexism. Oaf.
To be fair Charlie Falconer, it is rumoured that both Anna Soubry and Dominic Raab refused to serve under Liz Truss for those exact reasons.
She's also very young in comparison to her predecessors and younger than both Soubry (by a mile) and Raab. Some people have problems with working for youngsters. Ego.
Also known in her constituency as 'The Tory Trollop'!
This from the 'Turnip Taliban' of deepest Norfolk?
People from Norfolk are weird, especially when it comes to sex. Down there sex is a relative thing.
I was in a meeting with a friend and client yesterday talking about a common practice in his industry.
He said "it's a bit like f**king your sister. Everyone does it, but no one likes to talk about it"
I hope you defended your sister's honour.
I chose not to correct his use of English. He is American, after all, and one needs to make allowances.
I wasnt aware that lots of Americans have six fingers and everyone sits on the same side of the church at a wedding but if he was from West Virginia....
German officials anonymously briefing that the 'no pre-negotiation' stance on A50 will need to be dropped and that the two year negotiation period for exit will need to be extended.
The twentieth century was marked by Germany serially under-estimated British resolve.
Seems maybe they are finally realising they shouldn't make the same mistake in the twenty first....
No, it's German officials being more realistic than those of the EU bureaucracy and of many of the other countries. However, we unfortunately can't negotiate only with Germany. It's an utter shambles, and I think the markets and business are hugely underestimating the scale of the problem.
The fact you want it to be "an utter shambles" does not make it so and also repeating this ad infinitum also does not make it so. The decision has been made. You don't like the decision and yes we get that, but that's democracy.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
I don't think that is what Richard is saying. The problem is that the EU is horrendously difficult to get a decision from and negotiations with the kind of detail we are going to need become almost impossible. It is why they don't have trade deals with the US and China. It is one of the reasons why we will be better off out in the medium term. But it is also one of the reasons that negotiating an agreement with them in the sort of timescale now being discussed is going to be pretty much impossible.
I really think we should aim for an outline agreement from the start. Even that is going to be difficult.
It's clear to me that in order for the UK to get the best deal from the EU, it is simply going to have to be prepared to walk away - i.e. to fall back on WTO - and have no fear of doing so.
The incipient trade deals from countries all around the world (which have even astonished me) will certainly help us with this.
The fact you want it to be "an utter shambles" does not make it so and also repeating this ad infinitum also does not make it so. The decision has been made. You don't like the decision and yes we get that, but that's democracy.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
Try growing up.
Try it yourself. Also try and stop whining and bleating then about a democratic decision. It's becoming boring and very repetitive. As I said up thread the good points you make are just lost in the bile poured out because you didn't get your own way.
We had a "democratic decision” forty years ago which a few malcontents complained about, then found some lies, half-truths and whinges which, combined with other problems not really related to the matter in hand, enabled said malcontents and those they could dupe to agree with them, to get the people to reverse that decision, to the considerable disadvantage of us all. A result which will require an inordinate amount of Parliamentary and ministerial time to deal with, thus putting more important matters to the back of the queue. Why in God’s name should we not campaign for a re-run? You did.
False analogy. The EU as is isn't the Common Market of 1975.
Rubbish. Altiough, yes it was the Common Market, we were part and parcel of the decision making process that took us along the road to the EU. We knew what we were doing.
We (the British electorate) had no say until last month - we rejected political Union at the first opportunity.
Cobblers. We largely voted for paries which supported the process.
Lack of legal experience. Not that stopped Gove or Grayling.
Oh so it's one rule for the 2 blokes and a different one for the woman. Textbook definition of sexism. Oaf.
To be fair Charlie Falconer, it is rumoured that both Anna Soubry and Dominic Raab refused to serve under Liz Truss for those exact reasons.
She's also very young in comparison to her predecessors and younger than both Soubry (by a mile) and Raab. Some people have problems with working for youngsters. Ego.
Also known in her constituency as 'The Tory Trollop'!
This from the 'Turnip Taliban' of deepest Norfolk?
People from Norfolk are weird, especially when it comes to sex. Down there sex is a relative thing.
I was in a meeting with a friend and client yesterday talking about a common practice in his industry.
He said "it's a bit like f**king your sister. Everyone does it, but no one likes to talk about it"
I hope you defended your sister's honour.
I chose not to correct his use of English. He is American, after all, and one needs to make allowances.
I wasnt aware that lots of Americans have six fingers and everyone sits on the same side of the church at a wedding but if he was from West Virginia....
The fact you want it to be "an utter shambles" does not make it so and also repeating this ad infinitum also does not make it so. The decision has been made. You don't like the decision and yes we get that, but that's democracy.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
Try growing up.
Try it yourself. Also try and stop whining and bleating then about a democratic decision. It's becoming boring and very repetitive. As I said up thread the good points you make are just lost in the bile poured out because you didn't get your own way.
We had a "democratic decision” forty years ago which a few malcontents complained about, then found some lies, half-truths and whinges which, combined with other problems not really related to the matter in hand, enabled said malcontents and those they could dupe to agree with them, to get the people to reverse that decision, to the considerable disadvantage of us all. A result which will require an inordinate amount of Parliamentary and ministerial time to deal with, thus putting more important matters to the back of the queue. Why in God’s name should we not campaign for a re-run? You did.
False analogy. The EU as is isn't the Common Market of 1975.
Rubbish. Altiough, yes it was the Common Market, we were part and parcel of the decision making process that took us along the road to the EU. We knew what we were doing.
We (the British electorate) had no say until last month - we rejected political Union at the first opportunity.
Cobblers. We largely voted for paries which supported the process.
Not through choice. Once we were given the choice we gave our verdict.
Try it yourself. Also try and stop whining and bleating then about a democratic decision. It's becoming boring and very repetitive. As I said up thread the good points you make are just lost in the bile poured out because you didn't get your own way.
You are an idiot, frankly. I have never whined or bleated about the decision. I fully support implementing it, I would not vote for a party which tried to renege on it, and if I were able to do anything to help make a success of it I would.
However, that doesn't alter the fact that the practicalities of the exit negotiations are daunting.
EEA rules which have been unanimously agreed in a treaty ratified by 31 countries allow an exception for Liechtenstein, a country so small that hardly anyone knows where it is. So what?
Liechtenstein, a little far away country of which we know nothing.
Lack of legal experience. Not that stopped Gove or Grayling.
Oh so it's one rule for the 2 blokes and a different one for the woman. Textbook definition of sexism. Oaf.
To be fair Charlie Falconer, it is rumoured that both Anna Soubry and Dominic Raab refused to serve under Liz Truss for those exact reasons.
She's also very young in comparison to her predecessors and younger than both Soubry (by a mile) and Raab. Some people have problems with working for youngsters. Ego.
Also known in her constituency as 'The Tory Trollop'!
This from the 'Turnip Taliban' of deepest Norfolk?
People from Norfolk are weird, especially when it comes to sex. Down there sex is a relative thing.
I was in a meeting with a friend and client yesterday talking about a common practice in his industry.
He said "it's a bit like f**king your sister. Everyone does it, but no one likes to talk about it"
I hope you defended your sister's honour.
I chose not to correct his use of English. He is American, after all, and one needs to make allowances.
I wasnt aware that lots of Americans have six fingers and everyone sits on the same side of the church at a wedding but if he was from West Virginia....
The fact you want it to be "an utter shambles" does not make it so and also repeating this ad infinitum also does not make it so. The decision has been made. You don't like the decision and yes we get that, but that's democracy.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
Try growing up.
Try it yourself. Also try and stop whining and bleating then about a democratic decision. It's becoming boring and very repetitive. As I said up thread the good points you make are just lost in the bile poured out because you didn't get your own way.
We had a "democratic decision” forty years ago which a few malcontents complained about, then found some lies, half-truths and whinges which, combined with other problems not really related to the matter in hand, enabled said malcontents and those they could dupe to agree with them, to get the people to reverse that decision, to the considerable disadvantage of us all. A result which will require an inordinate amount of Parliamentary and ministerial time to deal with, thus putting more important matters to the back of the queue. Why in God’s name should we not campaign for a re-run? You did.
False analogy. The EU as is isn't the Common Market of 1975.
Leave won because of arrogance like this. There are large numbers of people who are sick of being sneered at in this sort of patronising way.
In the last Conservative manifesto, the main feature was an in/out referendum on the EU. Nobody (except anoraks) can remember any other commitment made by the Tories in 2015.
Had there been no campaigning by either side, Leave would have won by a distance. 'Project Fear' had a big impact with the politically semi-detached---most people.
EEA rules which have been unanimously agreed in a treaty ratified by 31 countries allow an exception for Liechtenstein, a country so small that hardly anyone knows where it is. So what?
No they were not. Lichenstein invoked them unilaterally under EEA rules which allow non EU EEA states to do it unilaterally for three months and renew every three months.
The special Lichenstein treaty just let them do it permanently without keeping renewing.
Comments
AlastairMeeks. Excellent news re your partner. I'm really pleased for you both. Best wishes.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Map_Greece_Megali_Idea-fr.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Greekhistory.GIF
Enosis (/ˈɛnəsɪs/; Greek: Ένωσις, meaning "union") refers to the movement of various Greek communities that live outside Greece, for incorporation of the regions they inhabit into the Greek state. Widely known is the case of the Greek-Cypriots for union of Cyprus into Greece.
Following Greek independence, movements calling for Enosis achieved popular support among ethnic Greeks living outside the Greek nation state, culminating with the Greek annexation of the Ionian Islands in 1864, Crete in 1913 and the Dodecanese islands in 1947.
At the conclusion of World War I, Greece attempted to annex portions of Western Anatolia at the invitation of the victorious Allies of World War I, particularly British Prime Minister David Lloyd George. The attempted Enosis failed, however, when the new Turkish Republic prevailed in the resulting Greco-Turkish War of 1919–1922, after which most Anatolian Christians who had not already fled during the war were forced to relocate to Greece in the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey.
In modern times, apart from Cyprus, the call for Enosis is adopted among part of the Greeks living in southern Albania/Northern Epirus.
-Wikipedia
I thought it'd be something like Eris or Nemesis (Discord and Retribution, respectively).
Mr. Bedfordshire, ah, thanks for that explanation.
So british products will have the same price for foreigners, but german products will be 20% more expensive for british consumers, that gives a serious competitive advantage for british made products in domestic markets.
You are like the kid that always picks up the football and goes home in a mega strop because they could not get their own way. Instead of constantly talking your country down why don't you just put a small % of that venom into making it work. After all the final outcome is in all our best interests whichever way you voted.
A turkish civil war would I suspect see the Greeks occupying Northern Cyprus if they get half a chance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_invasion_of_Cyprus
I've just been listening to yet more post-Brexit vox-pops on the PM programme and the level that "real people" operate at politically is so low as to make you want to despair for the future of any democracy. This doesn't mean that I think we should abandon democracy, just face up to the reality of how it works.
So it is in the USA, where populism is where it's at, and if so, DJT is also where it's at. Many, many factors are in Clinton's favour in this election, but the brainlessness of the people is not one of them.
http://www.events.orthodoxengland.org.uk/what-will-happen-to-the-patriarchate-of-constantinople-once-russia-has-freed-istanbul/
"ORTHODOX ENGLAND - What will happen to the Patriarchate of Constantinople once Russia has freed Istanbul?"
------------------------------------------------
Anyway here is Wikipedia on the events of the 1780s:
The Greek Plan or Greek Project is an early solution to the Eastern Question which was advanced by Catherine the Great in the early 1780s. It envisaged the partition of the Ottoman Empire between the Russian and Habsburg Empires followed by the restoration of the Byzantine Empire centered in Constantinople.
Like her predecessors, Catherine concerned herself with the Orthodox Christians under Ottoman rule; she also sponsored the Orlov Revolt in the Morea during the Russo-Turkish War of 1768–1774, and invited many Greeks like Ioannis Varvakis to settle in Russia, mainly in Crimea and New Russia. She conceived that one of her grandsons, appropriately named Constantine, would become the first emperor of the restored Byzantium. Another important consideration was Russia's goal of free access to the Mediterranean Sea through the Bosphorus, which the Ottomans controlled.
For this plan to succeed, the Great European Powers would need to agree to it and the Danube powers to cooperate. In May 1780, Catherine arranged a secret meeting with Joseph II, the Holy Roman Emperor, in Mogilyov. In a series of letters from September 1781, Catherine and Joseph discussed their plans to partition the Ottoman Empire and restore the Byzantine Empire. The Austro-Russian alliance was formalized in May 1781.
The Greek Plan was masterminded by Prince Potemkin who gave Greek names to the newly founded towns in New Russia (e.g., Odessa and Kherson). Byzantine symbolism was highlighted in new churches such as Kherson Cathedral. Another meeting of the Russian and Austrian monarchs was arranged as part of Catherine's Crimean journey of 1787. Both countries declared war on the Ottoman Empire later that year. Joseph's death in 1790, followed by the Treaty of Jassy and the Treaty of Sistova, in which Austria gained little, effectively ended the agreement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Plan
I really think we should aim for an outline agreement from the start. Even that is going to be difficult.
This new ILP could then elect a new leader and shadow cabinet and seek recognition by the Speaker as the official opposition. Her Majesty’s Official Opposition has the right to set the subject for 17 of the 20 opposition day debates in the House of Commons. It gains the chairmanship of the Public Accounts Committee and privileged seats on other committees. The Speaker of the House will select many more amendments and interventions from the opposition than from any other parliamentary grouping. The leader of the opposition would likely become the face of the critique of government in the media.
Perhaps most crucially, the ILP would get the money.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/labour-leader-is-likely-to-win-again-and-flog-the-party-to-death-z5nhjskfz
Ok I can be a snob at times.
Talking to a chap from France today - he couldn't believe what has possessed us to vote Leave, thinks it will be a disaster for the UK, and that we have turned our backs on Europe. I couldn't convince him otherwise.
He also reckoned that Sarko will be president, but Marine Le Pen could win next time around.
End of anecdote.
The FT has an article on Four scenarios: how Brexit process could unfold (paywall may need to Google it) . I don't necessarily agree the scenarios are exactly as laid out, but the article is interesting because it exposes the assumptions behind each one. My guess is that it is going to get bogged down. No-one will want to do anything drastic, but equally there is unlikely to be a quickly implementable alternative solution that keeps most of what we want from our current arrangement.
They won't mention things like "No Turks or Dogs" signs outside restaurants prior to 1974 though.
However after 1974 Turkey shipped a lot of Anatolian Turks to Northern Cyprus which has not gone down well even with the Turkish Cypriots (who are turkish speaking and muslim but basically the same ethnic group as the Greek Cypriots).
Could get very interesting in Cyprus if Turkey goes wrong. Wouldn't put the Russians past getting involved to "guarantee their security"
I always buy VWs (but not this time if Frau Merkel isn't nice)
I would suggest:
To help assist the poor, the working poor and the disadvantaged better their lot in society and make the state assist those with low aspirations to want to improve. And to ensure that those who can but will not engage with that program find it difficult to refuse to engage with it.
Instead of pissong money away making people dependent on the state so they will support Labour for ever. (which was GB's policy.. and effectively Scottish Labour's downfall)
The implications of that policy for education, and for those who want to do better would be immense. No grade inflation, concentration on skills etc.. And a rooting out of those content to do nothing or who accept meiocrity when more is possible.
It would require practical politicians who knew what they were talking about: so without a change in the average Labour MP, unlikely to happen. Political degrees and Spads need not apply.
A properly carried out policy is needed to change the mindset of people who don't succeed because they don't want to. (or need to).
I wonder how many people wot have a strong opinion of the Israel-Palestine dispute have an opinion on the Cyprus dispute?
Our trade with the EU is as you might expect; we have three large partners, seven or eight modest ones and the rest are lost in the noise (other than the Netherlands which is a special case). Unfortunately, we can't negotiate with the dozen or so we're actually interested in.
In terms of tariffs, based on a simple 10% rate (correct for cars, too low/high for other categories) and 2015 trade figures, we'd levy £29.1 billion and be charged £22.3 billion.
He said "it's a bit like f**king your sister. Everyone does it, but no one likes to talk about it"
Workers living in Liechtenstein generally do not need any kind of permit, regardless of their nationality. A permit is, however, required for apprenticeship positions. These positions may only be offered by employers with a training permit. Workers living outside Liechtenstein, known as "cross-border commuters", are subject to a range of different provisions in order to receive a permit. For more information visit the page on cross-border commuters.
Restrictive right of residence
Liechtenstein operates a restrictive policy when it comes to living in the country. Foreign nationals working in Liechtenstein are generally not allowed to live in the Principality, even if they are employed by a Liechtenstein company. In order to be allowed to live in Liechtenstein, foreign workers must apply for a residence permit. There are 56 such residence permits (B) granted each year for EEA citizens who already work in Liechtenstein. Half of these are awarded via a lottery; the rest are awarded by the government. The lotteries are held each spring and autumn. Swiss citizens are not allowed to take part in these lotteries. Instead, there are twelve permits available each year for Swiss citizens. All of these permits are awarded by the government.
EEA rules already allow it.
The constant talking down and kicking off about democratic decisions does though tend to obscure the more important messages and points from a poster. The good and very valuable information just gets lost in the overall sour grape approach.
At present neither Greece nor Cyprus is under any condition or intention of annexing turkish controlled territory.
Both are bankrupt eurozone members with gutted military and civilian infrastructure, and political systems that reek.
For all talk Turkey is a state and not a clown circus that it's bordering neighbours are.
It will require a significant externally imposed reform and economic aid (not bailouts of death) to rebuild a semblance of a functioning state in the countries surrounding Turkey, that will be capable of containing Turkey or administering portions of it.
Although Greece was rebuilt once by the americans to combat communism, they failed to reform it's political and civil service in order to make Greece a viable state in the long term.
However, that doesn't alter the fact that the practicalities of the exit negotiations are daunting.
Royal College of Nursing says there is still a lot of work to do to end practice following publication of first annual FGM statistics"
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/21/england-fgm-cases-recorded-2015-2016
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/36855244
Why in God’s name should we not campaign for a re-run? You did.
We knew what we were doing.
I'm sure Charles' next Porsche will be a bargain. A fire sale will be needed.
The incipient trade deals from countries all around the world (which have even astonished me) will certainly help us with this.
In the last Conservative manifesto, the main feature was an in/out referendum on the EU. Nobody (except anoraks) can remember any other commitment made by the Tories in 2015.
Had there been no campaigning by either side, Leave would have won by a distance. 'Project Fear' had a big impact with the politically semi-detached---most people.
The special Lichenstein treaty just let them do it permanently without keeping renewing.
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85340