There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
Most of the complaints about Corbyn from the PLP are not about his policies, but about the man himself, his lack of leadership qualities. Smith has gone on record as saying he agrees with most of Corbyn's policies and would be happy to serve under him if he lost this election. The PLP have made this election all about saving the Party from splitting, which considering it is their actions that have brought us to this point seems a bit rich, but that is by the by.
If Owen Smith wants to save the Party from splitting, the easiest way to do that is to step down from this contest in which it looks likely he will be mullered anyway. If he does that in the spirit of calling for unity and the Labour rebels fall into line and actually start showing some support, albeit like-warm support, for the democratically elected Labour Party Leader, then Labour would recover in the polls to the point that they may just be in a position to be the largest Party at the next election.
Corbyn is no spring chicken, If the next election is in 2020, he will be 74 and potentially the oldest PM since Winston Churchill, in an age where politicians are generally getting younger. He has been under a lot of pressure and it will have taken it's toll. He may well feel that having got the Party back into a position of stability, albeit precarious stability, he could step back and allow someone who shares his views to carry on and with his full support, if they made it onto the ballot and with JC's backing, the membership would probably go along with this.
So, you would then have a more stabilised Labour Party going into the election with a younger, fresh-faced leader who has the backing of the membership and none of the baggage that Corbyn has. One proviso is that the new leader could not be McDonnel, because he is too inextricably linked with Corbyn and has baggage of his own
It could work... couldn 't it
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidate voted in, right?
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidated voted in, right?
There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
It could work... couldn 't it
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.
The poor showing in the polls at the moment is more to do with the constant criticism being aimed at Corbn by his MP's which is gleefully amplified by the media. A party that is seen by the voters as being split will inevitably get slaughtered in a General election and splits don't come any more blatant than three quarters of their MP's passing a vote of no confience in the leader and forcing a bloody leadership battle.
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.
Like I said earlier, wishful thinking. The only route out of this is to purge the party of the Momentum types, including Corbyn & McDonnell themselves.
Whereas Smith is running on a "Jeremy's OK, his policies are OK, it's just competence" platform. And no-one from within the party is seriously challenging Corbyn on his past associations either [just like last time].
So they kinda deserve what's coming to them, though Smith's is probably the right strategic choice to maximise his small chance of winning.
Perhaps a two-pronged assault might have been better - someone like John Mann to go all-out assault on Corbyn, and someone like Nandy to be the sweetness-and-light reconciler?
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
Is there any electoral system which is not just FPTP when there are only 2 contenders?
You could set a requirement to get at least 60% of the vote (or 100%) or the election would be held again. I wouldn't be surprised if certain appointments were done like that.
"Jeremy Corbyn said it was wrong for medical research to be “farmed out to big pharmaceutical companies like Pfizer” (Guardian)
Is nationalizing pharmaceuticals Labour policy?
"Woooooooosh". That's the sound of the modern world going over Jeremy's head.
By modern world you presumably mean since the 19th century which is when many of the world's largest pharmaceutical companies were started. It's state sponsored medical research that is the new kid on the block.
There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
It could work... couldn 't it
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.
The poor showing in the polls at the moment is more to do with the constant criticism being aimed at Corbn by his MP's which is gleefully amplified by the media. A party that is seen by the voters as being split will inevitably get slaughtered in a General election and splits don't come any more blatant than three quarters of their MP's passing a vote of no confience in the leader and forcing a bloody leadership battle.
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together
I'm not going to rain on your parade @BudG. We live in a world where Donald Trump might be POTUS. Unicorns, Aliens, PM Corbyn, I'm ready to believe anything is possible.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
Maybe she needs to do a thread to educate you on why, even under AV, it's better to focus all of the PLP's resource and effort behind just one candidate.
AV isn't as complicated as you seem to think it is; you're not really that brilliant for understanding it.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
Is there any electoral system which is not just FPTP when there are only 2 contenders?
You could set a requirement to get at least 60% of the vote (or 100%) or the election would be held again. I wouldn't be surprised if certain appointments were done like that.
That's arguably FPTP with an implied third, RON, candidate with a fixed percentage.
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.
Like I said earlier, wishful thinking. The only route out of this is to purge the party of the Momentum types, including Corbyn & McDonnell themselves.
Someone suggested this purge of Momentum memers from the Labour Party earlier today. Their total membership is less than 10,000. If they are all Labour Party members and they are removed, what are you going to do about the quarter a million plus members who have bought into the Corbyn ideology, how are you going to stifle and ignore their democratic rights and views?
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
She understood it perfectly well (as I suspect you know). Spending most of the campaign arguing with Smith why they were the best one to replace Corbyn would have done neither of them any favours.
Most of the complaints about Corbyn from the PLP are not about his policies, but about the man himself, his lack of leadership qualities.
That's right - on the face of it.
But is it really the case?
Are there not a lot of Lab MPs who don't agree with his policies but know they would be slaughtered for attacking his policies so instead they just say it's about his leadership qualities?
If Corbyn and his supporters were so sure everyone backed his policies, they wouldn't be so desperate for him to remain as leader!
Trident is obviously one example but if Corbyn was ousted would a more mainstream leader really stick to all McDonnell's economic policies - eg mass money printing etc.
I suspect if Corbyn goes the policies would, in practice, move back towards Ed Miliband type stuff.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
Maybe she needs to do a thread to educate you on why, even under AV, it's better to focus all of the PLP's resource and effort behind just one candidate.
AV isn't as complicated as you seem to think it is; you're not really that brilliant for understanding it.
There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
It could work... couldn 't it
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.
The poor showing in the polls at the moment is more to do with the constant criticism being aimed at Corbn by his MP's which is gleefully amplified by the media. A party that is seen by the voters as being split will inevitably get slaughtered in a General election and splits don't come any more blatant than three quarters of their MP's passing a vote of no confience in the leader and forcing a bloody leadership battle.
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together
I'm not going to rain on your parade @BudG. We live in a world where Donald Trump might be POTUS. Unicorns, Aliens, PM Corbyn, I'm ready to believe anything is possible.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
She understood it perfectly well (as I suspect you know). Spending most of the campaign arguing with Smith why they were the best one to replace Corbyn would have done neither of them any favours.
I know she did.
But you know me, any excuse to do a thread on AV....
"Jeremy Corbyn said it was wrong for medical research to be “farmed out to big pharmaceutical companies like Pfizer” (Guardian)
Is nationalizing pharmaceuticals Labour policy?
"Woooooooosh". That's the sound of the modern world going over Jeremy's head.
By modern world you presumably mean since the 19th century which is when many of the world's largest pharmaceutical companies were started. It's state sponsored medical research that is the new kid on the block.
When they call Jeremy Corbyn a Renaissance man it's not meant as a compliment.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
Maybe she needs to do a thread to educate you on why, even under AV, it's better to focus all of the PLP's resource and effort behind just one candidate.
AV isn't as complicated as you seem to think it is; you're not really that brilliant for understanding it.
Talk of SDP2 or a Democratic Party are wide of the mark. If the existing membership had decided on a path of self-immolation then maybe. But there is a clear feeling (backed up by recent surveys) that the Labour Party has been swamped by insurgents - more than doubling its membership but so many of the new members don't believe in the Labour Party just Jeremy Corbyn.
Owen Smith can't pull out, he has to challenge Corbyn whether he wins or not. When Corbyn wins (and he will) the hate mob will move to purge the old membership and the PLP, and thats why a move against Momentum is inevitable - its sheer survival.
There is room for a realignment, with 30 or so continuity new Labour MPs joining the rump LibDems and some Cameroon Tories in a new centre party, and if the rebellion in the PLP was that small it would probably happen. But its far far bigger than that, and all these centre left MPs who have no confidence in Corbyn will not accept being branded Tories and being told to leave by new members who have been around for only a few months. They'll say this is OUR party and YOU are the coup, not us.
@MichaelLCrick: Legal sources say Jeremy Corbyn plans to attend in person next Tuesday's High Court hearing over Michael Foster action against Labour NEC
Given his antics at the NEC meeting (refusal to leave the room etc), this could be big box office, if it wasn't already!
And I assume several of his followers will be coming along to "support" their hero in his hour of need.
Comic Labour - the gift that keeps on giving...
Could be even more amusing if he brings along, oh I don't know, Diane Abbot? as his Mackenzie Friend.
I can claim to have been a Mackenzie friend at High Court.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
She understood it perfectly well (as I suspect you know). Spending most of the campaign arguing with Smith why they were the best one to replace Corbyn would have done neither of them any favours.
Eagle has damaged her political reputation forever with her behaviour over all of this.
To my mind, she had a moral and political duty to follow through with the challenge that she initiated. Smith's late entrance had nothing to do with anything other than his own cowardice. He was waiting to see the lay of the land before making his choice.
But either way, Eagle should have stayed the course. She started it. She should have finished it.
Now she looks even weaker than she did before. No courage. No backbone. And no political skill.
And these two are the best Labour could find. A coward and a weak fool. Pathetic.
Talk of SDP2 or a Democratic Party are wide of the mark. If the existing membership had decided on a path of self-immolation then maybe. But there is a clear feeling (backed up by recent surveys) that the Labour Party has been swamped by insurgents - more than doubling its membership but so many of the new members don't believe in the Labour Party just Jeremy Corbyn.
Owen Smith can't pull out, he has to challenge Corbyn whether he wins or not. When Corbyn wins (and he will) the hate mob will move to purge the old membership and the PLP, and thats why a move against Momentum is inevitable - its sheer survival.
There is room for a realignment, with 30 or so continuity new Labour MPs joining the rump LibDems and some Cameroon Tories in a new centre party, and if the rebellion in the PLP was that small it would probably happen. But its far far bigger than that, and all these centre left MPs who have no confidence in Corbyn will not accept being branded Tories and being told to leave by new members who have been around for only a few months. They'll say this is OUR party and YOU are the coup, not us.
Meanwhile, the voters will look on, with increasing distaste for both factions. Especially traditional Labour voters.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
Maybe she needs to do a thread to educate you on why, even under AV, it's better to focus all of the PLP's resource and effort behind just one candidate.
AV isn't as complicated as you seem to think it is; you're not really that brilliant for understanding it.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidated voted in, right?
Not quite. You also need an AV refresher thread.
With no more European elections, we say a sad goodbye to the d'Hondt election system
How about a thread to save the d'Hondt system by using it for our general elections.
Talk of SDP2 or a Democratic Party are wide of the mark. If the existing membership had decided on a path of self-immolation then maybe. But there is a clear feeling (backed up by recent surveys) that the Labour Party has been swamped by insurgents - more than doubling its membership but so many of the new members don't believe in the Labour Party just Jeremy Corbyn.
Owen Smith can't pull out, he has to challenge Corbyn whether he wins or not. When Corbyn wins (and he will) the hate mob will move to purge the old membership and the PLP, and thats why a move against Momentum is inevitable - its sheer survival.
There is room for a realignment, with 30 or so continuity new Labour MPs joining the rump LibDems and some Cameroon Tories in a new centre party, and if the rebellion in the PLP was that small it would probably happen. But its far far bigger than that, and all these centre left MPs who have no confidence in Corbyn will not accept being branded Tories and being told to leave by new members who have been around for only a few months. They'll say this is OUR party and YOU are the coup, not us.
Why do you think anyone wants to purge the membership.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidated voted in, right?
Not quite. You also need an AV refresher thread.
With no more European elections, we say a sad goodbye to the d'Hondt election system
How about a thread to save the d'Hondt system by using it for our general elections.
You need not worry! The D'Hondt system is used to allocate seats in the NI executive between parties.
If Corbyn fights Smith off then 150 careers are effectively over, surely. You either drink the Red Kool aid and face losing your seat, or you fight on and get deselected before even getting to election.
Most of the complaints about Corbyn from the PLP are not about his policies, but about the man himself, his lack of leadership qualities.
That's right - on the face of it.
But is it really the case?
Are there not a lot of Lab MPs who don't agree with his policies but know they would be slaughtered for attacking his policies so instead they just say it's about his leadership qualities?
If Corbyn and his supporters were so sure everyone backed his policies, they wouldn't be so desperate for him to remain as leader!
Trident is obviously one example but if Corbyn was ousted would a more mainstream leader really stick to all McDonnell's economic policies - eg mass money printing etc.
I suspect if Corbyn goes the policies would, in practice, move back towards Ed Miliband type stuff.
I think you are probably right about his policies and the reasons for MP's not saying so, but that is just cowardly and just leaves it as an attack on the man himself and most of his detractors even admit that he has good qualities as a person, so that attack falls flat .
And yes, if Corbyn goes, I agree that, even under a Corbyn approved successor, the policies would change to policies more acceptable by the PLP. So that is the only real positive way forward, which keeps the Party intact is to allow him to continue, show him some luke warm support, re-unite the Party, allow him to recommend a successor to the emmebrship.. and we take it from there. The one proviso as I said in my original post is that his successor cannot be McDeommel, otherwise we are back to square one.
Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
This rather misses the point that Corbyn has no say in that. It was the electorate who put those MPs into the house. He can't trigger any by-elections. They are Members of Parliament and can only leave by the usual routes - not just because Corbyn feels like a purge.
In the end, I don;t see how the current MPs win. Labour will become like its membership, and fight 2020 on a very socialist platform, with very socialist candidates much more amenable to Jeremy that the current bunch.
Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
Or just publicly back the boundary changes, which he could use to start mass reselections immediately?
Yeah but then he's stuck with a bunch of hopeless malcontents until 2020.
150 bye elections now and he gains 150 hopeless supportive MPs.
But there's no mechanism for Corbyn to trigger 150 by-elections. The closest he could get is a general election and that would require Tory assistance.
Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
This rather misses the point that Corbyn has no say in that. It was the electorate who put those MPs into the house. He can't trigger any by-elections. They are Members of Parliament and can only leave by the usual routes - not just because Corbyn feels like a purge.
Such a shame that all 650 seats in the House of Commons are disappearing to be replaced by 600 new ones.
Talk of SDP2 or a Democratic Party are wide of the mark. If the existing membership had decided on a path of self-immolation then maybe. But there is a clear feeling (backed up by recent surveys) that the Labour Party has been swamped by insurgents - more than doubling its membership but so many of the new members don't believe in the Labour Party just Jeremy Corbyn.
Owen Smith can't pull out, he has to challenge Corbyn whether he wins or not. When Corbyn wins (and he will) the hate mob will move to purge the old membership and the PLP, and thats why a move against Momentum is inevitable - its sheer survival.
There is room for a realignment, with 30 or so continuity new Labour MPs joining the rump LibDems and some Cameroon Tories in a new centre party, and if the rebellion in the PLP was that small it would probably happen. But its far far bigger than that, and all these centre left MPs who have no confidence in Corbyn will not accept being branded Tories and being told to leave by new members who have been around for only a few months. They'll say this is OUR party and YOU are the coup, not us.
Why do you think anyone wants to purge the membership.
Probably all those people talking about purging either Blairites or the far left respectively, or wanting to. The MPs are out of step with the membership but they aren't alone, and plenty of people just on here have mentioned wanting to get rid of the MPs, so wanting to get rid of members who support the MPs surely follows.
Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
This rather misses the point that Corbyn has no say in that. It was the electorate who put those MPs into the house. He can't trigger any by-elections. They are Members of Parliament and can only leave by the usual routes - not just because Corbyn feels like a purge.
Such a shame that all 650 seats in the House of Commons are disappearing to be replaced by 600 new ones.
No such thing as an incumbent at the next GE
Some may be unchanged, although not sure if Labour hold any of the usual suspects (Western Isles etc.)
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidated voted in, right?
Not quite. You also need an AV refresher thread.
With no more European elections, we say a sad goodbye to the d'Hondt election system
How about a thread to save the d'Hondt system by using it for our general elections.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidated voted in, right?
Not quite. You also need an AV refresher thread.
With no more European elections, we say a sad goodbye to the d'Hondt election system
How about a thread to save the d'Hondt system by using it for our general elections.
If we did so we should reclaim our Anglo Saxon heritage by calling it Jefferson's method.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidated voted in, right?
Not quite. You also need an AV refresher thread.
With no more European elections, we say a sad goodbye to the d'Hondt election system
How about a thread to save the d'Hondt system by using it for our general elections.
There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
It could work... couldn 't it
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.
The poor showing in the polls at the moment is more to do with the constant criticism being aimed at Corbn by his MP's which is gleefully amplified by the media. A party that is seen by the voters as being split will inevitably get slaughtered in a General election and splits don't come any more blatant than three quarters of their MP's passing a vote of no confience in the leader and forcing a bloody leadership battle.
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together
I'm not going to rain on your parade @BudG. We live in a world where Donald Trump might be POTUS. Unicorns, Aliens, PM Corbyn, I'm ready to believe anything is possible.
Corbyn has many admirable qualities that people have bought into, but I am naive enough to think that him leading the Party into the next election is going to be anything other than a disaster, particularly if the open acrimony towards him is continuing. I want the Labour party to continue and I want it to have a chance of winning power again one day. I set out one way it might be able to happen. If there are any other feasible options, then I would be open to hearng them.
Talk of SDP2 or a Democratic Party are wide of the mark. If the existing membership had decided on a path of self-immolation then maybe. But there is a clear feeling (backed up by recent surveys) that the Labour Party has been swamped by insurgents - more than doubling its membership but so many of the new members don't believe in the Labour Party just Jeremy Corbyn.
Owen Smith can't pull out, he has to challenge Corbyn whether he wins or not. When Corbyn wins (and he will) the hate mob will move to purge the old membership and the PLP, and thats why a move against Momentum is inevitable - its sheer survival.
There is room for a realignment, with 30 or so continuity new Labour MPs joining the rump LibDems and some Cameroon Tories in a new centre party, and if the rebellion in the PLP was that small it would probably happen. But its far far bigger than that, and all these centre left MPs who have no confidence in Corbyn will not accept being branded Tories and being told to leave by new members who have been around for only a few months. They'll say this is OUR party and YOU are the coup, not us.
Why do you think anyone wants to purge the membership.
Probably all those people talking about purging either Blairites or the far left respectively, or wanting to. The MPs are out of step with the membership but they aren't alone, and plenty of people just on here have mentioned wanting to get rid of the MPs, so wanting to get rid of members who support the MPs surely follows.
The membership is the party in Labour's case. The 'moderate' members will not need to be purged in the slightest, they'll just be outnumbered.
Talk of SDP2 or a Democratic Party are wide of the mark. If the existing membership had decided on a path of self-immolation then maybe. But there is a clear feeling (backed up by recent surveys) that the Labour Party has been swamped by insurgents - more than doubling its membership but so many of the new members don't believe in the Labour Party just Jeremy Corbyn.
Owen Smith can't pull out, he has to challenge Corbyn whether he wins or not. When Corbyn wins (and he will) the hate mob will move to purge the old membership and the PLP, and thats why a move against Momentum is inevitable - its sheer survival.
There is room for a realignment, with 30 or so continuity new Labour MPs joining the rump LibDems and some Cameroon Tories in a new centre party, and if the rebellion in the PLP was that small it would probably happen. But its far far bigger than that, and all these centre left MPs who have no confidence in Corbyn will not accept being branded Tories and being told to leave by new members who have been around for only a few months. They'll say this is OUR party and YOU are the coup, not us.
Who is going to do that? The leadership? The NEC? The PLP? The constituencies? The unions?
I don't see anyone that has both the will or the power to engage in that kind of fightback. If Corbyn wins - and he probably will - you can either hunker down and wait for the Momentum types to get bored or disillusioned or you can start again. It might not even be a choice if momentum start their purge first.
There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
It could work... couldn 't it
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.
The poor showing in the polls at the moment is more to do with the constant criticism being aimed at Corbn by his MP's which is gleefully amplified by the media. A party that is seen by the voters as being split will inevitably get slaughtered in a General election and splits don't come any more blatant than three quarters of their MP's passing a vote of no confience in the leader and forcing a bloody leadership battle.
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together
I'm not going to rain on your parade @BudG. We live in a world where Donald Trump might be POTUS. Unicorns, Aliens, PM Corbyn, I'm ready to believe anything is possible.
Corbyn has many admirable qualities that people have bought into, but I am naive enough to think that him leading the Party into the next election is going to be anything other than a disaster, particularly if the open acrimony towards him is continuing. I want the Labour party to continue and I want it to have a chance of winning power again one day. I set out one way it might be able to happen. If there are any other feasible options, then I would be open to hearng them.
Will any means whatsoever justify the ends ?
I think this is what alot of people have (From the left, right and centre) found so offputting about Labour in the last decade or so.
Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
This rather misses the point that Corbyn has no say in that. It was the electorate who put those MPs into the house. He can't trigger any by-elections. They are Members of Parliament and can only leave by the usual routes - not just because Corbyn feels like a purge.
Such a shame that all 650 seats in the House of Commons are disappearing to be replaced by 600 new ones.
No such thing as an incumbent at the next GE
There'll definitely be two in Scotland (assuming Carmichael stands again), but won't be many more.
Mr. Evershed, depending on the number of splitters, SDP2 could have a lot of airtime as the Official Opposition, or even in a secondary [in opposition] position.
If they're behind the SNP in numbers then things may be trickier.
Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
This rather misses the point that Corbyn has no say in that. It was the electorate who put those MPs into the house. He can't trigger any by-elections. They are Members of Parliament and can only leave by the usual routes - not just because Corbyn feels like a purge.
Such a shame that all 650 seats in the House of Commons are disappearing to be replaced by 600 new ones.
No such thing as an incumbent at the next GE
There'll definitely be two in Scotland (assuming Carmichael stands again), but won't be many more.
I think there were about 60 completely unchanged seats in the 1st Draft English boundary review that was cancelled in 2012.
I know that seems a surprisingly high figure but am sure it's right - eg every North Yorkshire seat was left unchanged from memory.
If Corbyn fights Smith off then 150 careers are effectively over, surely. You either drink the Red Kool aid and face losing your seat, or you fight on and get deselected before even getting to election.
Or you join SDP2 and lose your seat that way.
Most of the 172 MPs are rock solid. The mob would have all of them deselected. But the mob are a minority faction in the new membership, and there simply isn't the majority of members in those CLPs wanting to replace the MP.
And w=from what I have seen the mob are all mouth and no walking shoes. They don't campaign. They don't administer. They can't actually run things. And what they want is hysterically contradictory. In my CLP if they want to oust myself and the other officers good luck to them - its a free vote. But the actual business of running the party would grind rapidly to a halt - its all motions and rallies and other things that talk to themselves not the electorate.
As for removing the new members, thats not what I said. Momentum can be banned. Anyone then organising for or supporting Momentum can be disciplined or expelled under rules just as they would be if organising for a rival party. But the reality is most of the new members aren't there for Momentum or the Labour Party, they are there for Corbyn. If Corbyn is no longer leader a large number will resign.
There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
It could work... couldn 't it
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.
The poor showing in the polls at the moment is more to do with the constant criticism being aimed at Corbn by his MP's which is gleefully amplified by the media. A party that is seen by the voters as being split will inevitably get slaughtered in a General election and splits don't come any more blatant than three quarters of their MP's passing a vote of no confience in the leader and forcing a bloody leadership battle.
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together
I'm not going to rain on your parade @BudG. We live in a world where Donald Trump might be POTUS. Unicorns, Aliens, PM Corbyn, I'm ready to believe anything is possible.
Corbyn has many admirable qualities that people have bought into, but I am naive enough to think that him leading the Party into the next election is going to be anything other than a disaster, particularly if the open acrimony towards him is continuing. I want the Labour party to continue and I want it to have a chance of winning power again one day. I set out one way it might be able to happen. If there are any other feasible options, then I would be open to hearng them.
Will any means whatsoever justify the ends ?
I think this is what alot of people have (From the left, right and centre) found so offputting about Labour in the last decade or so.
Not ANY means, by any means!
A way out needs to be found that allows the Party to heal and allows for someone else to take over from Corbyn who is acceptable to him and his followers.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
Maybe she needs to do a thread to educate you on why, even under AV, it's better to focus all of the PLP's resource and effort behind just one candidate.
AV isn't as complicated as you seem to think it is; you're not really that brilliant for understanding it.
You need your irony meter calibrating.
Then I'll find your AV thread 'jokes' funny?
Everyone else finds them funny.
You've quite obviously believed that for some time.
Mr. Evershed, depending on the number of splitters, SDP2 could have a lot of airtime as the Official Opposition, or even in a secondary [in opposition] position.
If they're behind the SNP in numbers then things may be trickier.
As a new party you will need people on the ground delivering leaflets, canvassing and getting out the vote to win elections - rather than airtime in parliament.
Pretty obvious Labour only has one problem - the MPs.
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
This rather misses the point that Corbyn has no say in that. It was the electorate who put those MPs into the house. He can't trigger any by-elections. They are Members of Parliament and can only leave by the usual routes - not just because Corbyn feels like a purge.
Such a shame that all 650 seats in the House of Commons are disappearing to be replaced by 600 new ones.
No such thing as an incumbent at the next GE
There'll definitely be two in Scotland (assuming Carmichael stands again), but won't be many more.
I'm not entirely sure Carmichael will stand again, and am half hoping he won't. Orkney and Shetlands should be very holdable for anyone with an orange bird, mind. I'd like to see Clegg stay on for Hallam or wherever the boundaries of a western Sheffield seat lie.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
Which means Angela Eagle didn't understand AV. She shouldn't have pulled out.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
Maybe she needs to do a thread to educate you on why, even under AV, it's better to focus all of the PLP's resource and effort behind just one candidate.
AV isn't as complicated as you seem to think it is; you're not really that brilliant for understanding it.
You need your irony meter calibrating.
Then I'll find your AV thread 'jokes' funny?
Everyone else finds them funny.
You've quite obviously believed that for some time.
Other political discussion internet fora are available.
There IS a way out of this for Labour that will keep the Party intact, but it would require some ingestion of humble pie, and a period of 2-3 years of biting of tongues, holding of noses and a lot of patience.
It could work... couldn 't it
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.
The poor showing in the polls at the moment is more to do with the constant criticism being aimed at Corbn by his MP's which is gleefully amplified by the media. A party that is seen by the voters as being split will inevitably get slaughtered in a General election and splits don't come any more blatant than three quarters of their MP's passing a vote of no confience in the leader and forcing a bloody leadership battle.
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together
I'm not going to rain on your parade @BudG. We live in a world where Donald Trump might be POTUS. Unicorns, Aliens, PM Corbyn, I'm ready to believe anything is possible.
Corbyn has many admirable qualities that people have bought into, but I am naive enough to think that him leading the Party into the next election is going to be anything other than a disaster, particularly if the open acrimony towards him is continuing. I want the Labour party to continue and I want it to have a chance of winning power again one day. I set out one way it might be able to happen. If there are any other feasible options, then I would be open to hearng them.
Will any means whatsoever justify the ends ?
I think this is what alot of people have (From the left, right and centre) found so offputting about Labour in the last decade or so.
How Labour treats its women tells me all I need to know. I don't just mean in terms of leadership elections; its supporters have been vile on social media. I really felt for poor Johanna Baxter. It's trite but true; there's only one nasty party in the UK and it ain't the Tories.
That solves the Labour party's internal issues. They would then be massacred at the General Election. The idea that a Corbynite Labour could be largest party is an impossible dream. Or, in my case, a hideous nightmare that must never, ever happen. Of course, we don't always get what we want - ask any Remainer. Luckily, in this case, I believe the electorate are going to be with me.
Like I said earlier, wishful thinking. The only route out of this is to purge the party of the Momentum types, including Corbyn & McDonnell themselves.
Someone suggested this purge of Momentum memers from the Labour Party earlier today. Their total membership is less than 10,000. If they are all Labour Party members and they are removed, what are you going to do about the quarter a million plus members who have bought into the Corbyn ideology, how are you going to stifle and ignore their democratic rights and views?
Impose a different leader and wait for them to leave.
Just think of how many threads we could have one this!!!
I think you need to have a long hard look at yourself young man....
The Schulze method is interesting. It tries to find the condorcet winner in a single-seat election, which is the candidate that is most preferred pairwise to every other.
So If A is preferred to B, B is preferred to C and C is preferred to D, then A should be the winner. Simple!
But not so fast. You can get Condorcet Cycles.
What if A is preferred to B, but B is preferred to C, yet C is preferred to A? Who should be the winner then? There is no answer.
If Corbyn fights Smith off then 150 careers are effectively over, surely. You either drink the Red Kool aid and face losing your seat, or you fight on and get deselected before even getting to election.
Or you join SDP2 and lose your seat that way.
Most of the 172 MPs are rock solid. The mob would have all of them deselected. But the mob are a minority faction in the new membership, and there simply isn't the majority of members in those CLPs wanting to replace the MP.
Anyone who fails to acknowledge that discussions about AV are the apotheosis of PB discussions will find PB discussing AV in even more depth.
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
Just remind me, I'm getting a bit rusty: AV is the system where, if you look like losing, you apply to the court in the hope of getting the alternative candidated voted in, right?
Not quite. You also need an AV refresher thread.
With no more European elections, we say a sad goodbye to the d'Hondt election system
How about a thread to save the d'Hondt system by using it for our general elections.
If we did so we should reclaim our Anglo Saxon heritage by calling it Jefferson's method.</blockquote
Comments
After all, Labour uses AV to elect their leaders and there's a Labour leadership contest ongoing.
AV between two contenders = FPTP.
I need to do a thread to educate her.
That AV?
With a different leader at the next election without the buden of the baggage Corbyn has and without the "unelectable" tag to hamper them, in charge of a Party which is seen as more united, they would at least have a chance of a reasonable result which is a lot further forward from where things stand at the present. Plus they will have membership of half a million, which is more than the membership of all the other Parties put together
Whereas Smith is running on a "Jeremy's OK, his policies are OK, it's just competence" platform. And no-one from within the party is seriously challenging Corbyn on his past associations either [just like last time].
So they kinda deserve what's coming to them, though Smith's is probably the right strategic choice to maximise his small chance of winning.
Perhaps a two-pronged assault might have been better - someone like John Mann to go all-out assault on Corbyn, and someone like Nandy to be the sweetness-and-light reconciler?
Reality of AV <> Theory of AV.
Ms Eagle understood the former very well.
Apparently she is not as "norma"l as Smith.
BTW Smith presumably doesnt understand AV either.
Alas Smith and Eagle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Eagle
But it just goes to show how FPTP is the fundamental electoral system on which all lesser variants rest.
AV isn't as complicated as you seem to think it is; you're not really that brilliant for understanding it.
But is it really the case?
Are there not a lot of Lab MPs who don't agree with his policies but know they would be slaughtered for attacking his policies so instead they just say it's about his leadership qualities?
If Corbyn and his supporters were so sure everyone backed his policies, they wouldn't be so desperate for him to remain as leader!
Trident is obviously one example but if Corbyn was ousted would a more mainstream leader really stick to all McDonnell's economic policies - eg mass money printing etc.
I suspect if Corbyn goes the policies would, in practice, move back towards Ed Miliband type stuff.
Vote May in May.
But you know me, any excuse to do a thread on AV....
Real Turnip Taliban?
If I was to place a bet on it (and this is evidence that I wont).. a confirmation ballot for TSE's second 20-year term as directly elected dictator.
An idea for the design of the ballot paper:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Stimmzettel-Anschluss.jpg
Corbyn should get rid ASAP - trigger 150+ bye elections for November.
Would put an end to the infighting for good.
Gets Coat
Theresa May the Fourth be with you!
Owen Smith can't pull out, he has to challenge Corbyn whether he wins or not. When Corbyn wins (and he will) the hate mob will move to purge the old membership and the PLP, and thats why a move against Momentum is inevitable - its sheer survival.
There is room for a realignment, with 30 or so continuity new Labour MPs joining the rump LibDems and some Cameroon Tories in a new centre party, and if the rebellion in the PLP was that small it would probably happen. But its far far bigger than that, and all these centre left MPs who have no confidence in Corbyn will not accept being branded Tories and being told to leave by new members who have been around for only a few months. They'll say this is OUR party and YOU are the coup, not us.
We lost.
To my mind, she had a moral and political duty to follow through with the challenge that she initiated. Smith's late entrance had nothing to do with anything other than his own cowardice.
He was waiting to see the lay of the land before making his choice.
But either way, Eagle should have stayed the course. She started it. She should have finished it.
Now she looks even weaker than she did before. No courage. No backbone. And no political skill.
And these two are the best Labour could find. A coward and a weak fool. Pathetic.
You need to have an innocent mind like mine.
With no more European elections, we say a sad goodbye to the d'Hondt election system
How about a thread to save the d'Hondt system by using it for our general elections.
Fantasy Island.
150 bye elections now and he gains 150 hopeless supportive MPs.
If Corbyn fights Smith off then 150 careers are effectively over, surely. You either drink the Red Kool aid and face losing your seat, or you fight on and get deselected before even getting to election.
Or you join SDP2 and lose your seat that way.
And yes, if Corbyn goes, I agree that, even under a Corbyn approved successor, the policies would change to policies more acceptable by the PLP. So that is the only real positive way forward, which keeps the Party intact is to allow him to continue, show him some luke warm support, re-unite the Party, allow him to recommend a successor to the emmebrship.. and we take it from there. The one proviso as I said in my original post is that his successor cannot be McDeommel, otherwise we are back to square one.
Corbyn has no way to force 150 by-elections.
In the end, I don;t see how the current MPs win. Labour will become like its membership, and fight 2020 on a very socialist platform, with very socialist candidates much more amenable to Jeremy that the current bunch.
The seats belong to the MPs, not the party.
No such thing as an incumbent at the next GE
D'Hondt you want me (baby)
D'Hondt EU want me (baby)
I don't see anyone that has both the will or the power to engage in that kind of fightback. If Corbyn wins - and he probably will - you can either hunker down and wait for the Momentum types to get bored or disillusioned or you can start again. It might not even be a choice if momentum start their purge first.
I think this is what alot of people have (From the left, right and centre) found so offputting about Labour in the last decade or so.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method
Just think of how many threads we could have one this!!!
SDP1 had an election alliance with the Lib Dems.
Without such an alliance, SDP2 would not win any seats under FPTP.
If they're behind the SNP in numbers then things may be trickier.
I know that seems a surprisingly high figure but am sure it's right - eg every North Yorkshire seat was left unchanged from memory.
And w=from what I have seen the mob are all mouth and no walking shoes. They don't campaign. They don't administer. They can't actually run things. And what they want is hysterically contradictory. In my CLP if they want to oust myself and the other officers good luck to them - its a free vote. But the actual business of running the party would grind rapidly to a halt - its all motions and rallies and other things that talk to themselves not the electorate.
As for removing the new members, thats not what I said. Momentum can be banned. Anyone then organising for or supporting Momentum can be disciplined or expelled under rules just as they would be if organising for a rival party. But the reality is most of the new members aren't there for Momentum or the Labour Party, they are there for Corbyn. If Corbyn is no longer leader a large number will resign.
A way out needs to be found that allows the Party to heal and allows for someone else to take over from Corbyn who is acceptable to him and his followers.
I'd like to see Clegg stay on for Hallam or wherever the boundaries of a western Sheffield seat lie.
So If A is preferred to B, B is preferred to C and C is preferred to D, then A should be the winner. Simple!
But not so fast. You can get Condorcet Cycles.
What if A is preferred to B, but B is preferred to C, yet C is preferred to A? Who should be the winner then? There is no answer.