Cricviz model is terriby flawed, gone from 50/50 to 85/15 with that one wicket. Given there is possibility of Bairstow going at any moment that should be factored in and not result in that level of movement in the percentages.
Cricviz model is terriby flawed, gone from 50/50 to 85/15 with that one wicket. Given there is possibility of Bairstow going at any moment that should be factored in and not result in that level of movement in the percentages.
Yup. Black Lives Matter and the political pandering to them isn't helping either.
Gunman is still at large, ten shots fired
I knew you'd blame BLM.
I don't understand that view. BLM is a symptom, not a cause. Smartphones are showing US police in an extremely unpleasant light. It's no wonder there's so much anger.
Is it my view you don't understand (or those who oppose BLM)? From what I can see, you are critical of the US police as well. BLM exists because in America all lives are not seeing as mattering, unfortunately. Thus, people say Black Lives Matter to reiterate what should be true: that in 2016 Black Lives do matter, just as much as anyone else does. It is a shame so many people in America do not believe that Black Lives do matter.
BLM are a dangerous agit prop Black Poweresque movement that aren't helping anything. And pandering to them is even worse.
When an organisation encourages through rhetoric/gets approval from politicians the planned murder of law officers - it deserves NOTHING but condemnation. You'd never defend white supremacists killing police offices - what's the difference?
Very true, nothing justifies anyone going out and shooting innocent police officers, anyone who thinks that is acceptable is warped in the extreme, no matter what grievance they nurture.
What makes my blood run cold right now is that there's a deliberate intention to murder officers across the nation.
Thinking your spouse may not come home each night is always a worry for law enforcement families, knowing that a small number of racists are seeking to shoot them is an entirely different kettle of fish.
God knows what's going to happen in Cleveland tomorrow with the Trump convention. IIRC it's a open carry state.
Cricviz model is terriby flawed, gone from 50/50 to 85/15 with that one wicket. Given there is possibility of Bairstow going at any moment that should be factored in and not result in that level of movement in the percentages.
Surely it's 93-96% probability for Pakistan
Was talking about before broad. With broad gone it is now 97/3. But the 50/5 0 was the incorrect output of their model.
@saddened The reason why it would be called racist is because white lives already matter. There is not a history of an historical oppression of white people on the grounds of race in the Western world. White people have never been oppressed in the Western world because they are White. By contrast, Black people have. So there is already a different context. There is a huge history in the US of Black lives not mattering - that is why it is important to reaffirm what should be true: that Black Lives do matter - just as much as any other life. Second of all, the issue is, is that in many of these incidents with law enforcement the victims do not get justice. While you can bet your bottom dollar that in situations of Black on Black crime the killer will be prosecuted, this does not happen in situations with law enforcement. Thus the anger at those situations.
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
I notice you have skirted nicely around the fact that the vast majority of blacks who are murdered are murdered by other blacks. If you genuinely want to save black lives that's where you need to start.
What's your opinion on that?
I did not skirt around that issue. I specifically addressed that issue in the bit in bold.
Here it is again:
Second of all, the issue is, is that in many of these incidents with law enforcement the victims do not get justice. While you can bet your bottom dollar that in situations of Black on Black crime the killer will be prosecuted, this does not happen in situations with law enforcement. Thus the anger at those situations.
There is no bit in bold rendered on my tablet. So help me out what is your opinion on dealing with the horrific rates of black on black murder.
I put the BIB in the post you quoted from me. I also reiterated what I said under 'Here it is again'.
In what way does that address the fact that the vast majority of black deaths are at the hands of another blacks and if you really believe black lives matter that should be addressed?
You don't understand. I'll direct you to @John_M's post. He has explained things far more eloquently than me.
Fair enough, it would appear that blacks being killed by other blacks isn't worthy of any thought from you, only if they are killed by the police.
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
Nonsense.
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
They react that way because:
(a. 'All Lives matter' has become a way of shutting down debate on the relationship between Black people and law enforcement in the US. It has become a way of shutting down debate on the grievances many Black people have about that situation. (b. Second of all, it's clear that sadly all lives are not seen as mattering in the US.
A PBer brought up Facebook employees writing 'All Lives Matter'. I actually think that Mark Zuckerburg's response to that was fantastic and explains the situation well re saying 'all lives matter'.
@saddened The reason why it would be called racist is because white lives already matter. There is not a history of an historical oppression of white people on the grounds of race in the Western world. White people have never been oppressed in the Western world because they are White. By contrast, Black people have. So there is already a different context. There is a huge history in the US of Black lives not mattering - that is why it is important to reaffirm what should be true: that Black Lives do matter - just as much as any other life. Second of all, the issue is, is that in many of these incidents with law enforcement the victims do not get justice. While you can bet your bottom dollar that in situations of Black on Black crime the killer will be prosecuted, this does not happen in situations with law enforcement. Thus the anger at those situations.
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
I notice you have skirted nicely around the fact that the vast majority of blacks who are murdered are murdered by other blacks. If you genuinely want to save black lives that's where you need to start.
What's your opinion on that?
I did not skirt around that issue. I specifically addressed that issue in the bit in bold.
Here it is again:
Second of all, the issue is, is that in many of these incidents with law enforcement the victims do not get justice. While you can bet your bottom dollar that in situations of Black on Black crime the killer will be prosecuted, this does not happen in situations with law enforcement. Thus the anger at those situations.
There is no bit in bold rendered on my tablet. So help me out what is your opinion on dealing with the horrific rates of black on black murder.
I put the BIB in the post you quoted from me. I also reiterated what I said under 'Here it is again'.
In what way does that address the fact that the vast majority of black deaths are at the hands of another blacks and if you really believe black lives matter that should be addressed?
You don't understand. I'll direct you to @John_M's post. He has explained things far more eloquently than me.
Fair enough, it would appear that blacks being killed by other blacks isn't worthy of any thought from you, only if they are killed by the police.
You're misunderstanding my position. Perhaps deliberately you are doing so.
It is difficult, as a white, middle aged Englishman to get my head around the parlous state race relations has got itself into in the US. It's equally as hard to put myself in the shoes of young black American males. I don't get racially abused, or feel particularly at threat from gun crime, well any crime at all, really. On the face of it, BLM seems a little radical for me, but it is without doubt that the Police in the US are doing themselves no favours. It just appears that the US is heading towards trouble, with no easy fix on the horizon.
@saddened The reason why it would be called racist is because white lives already matter. There is not a history of an historical oppression of white people on the grounds of race in the Western world. White people have never been oppressed in the Western world because they are White. By contrast, Black people have. So there is already a different context. There is a huge history in the US of Black lives not mattering - that is why it is important to reaffirm what should be true: that Black Lives do matter - just as much as any other life. Second of all, the issue is, is that in many of these incidents with law enforcement the victims do not get justice. While you can bet your bottom dollar that in situations of Black on Black crime the killer will be prosecuted, this does not happen in situations with law enforcement. Thus the anger at those situations.
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
I notice you have skirted nicely around the fact that the vast majority of blacks who are murdered are murdered by other blacks. If you genuinely want to save black lives that's where you need to start.
What's your opinion on that?
With respect, while black-on-black murders are a tragedy, they are a separate tragedy.
The issue at hand is simple; are police officers (who are an arm of the State) almost routinely shooting black suspects? Based on some of the footage we've seen, the answer is yes. Simply pointing at an even worse situation is what-aboutery of the first order.
Citizens have collectively outsourced personal defence to the State. It's an implicit contract. If the State can be shown to be violating that contract it is not going to end well.
Footage that looks damning on YouTube may look very different once a Defence Attorney has taken it apart. A police officer who honestly believes he is in imminent danger of being shot, and shoots first, will have a defence to a murder charge. Juries tend to give the benefit of the doubt to police officers.
The talk England batting deep is false. Ali doesn't have a good record against good bowling, broad is a broken man with the bat & Finn + Anderson (or ball) are rabbits.
@saddened The reason why it would be called racist is because white lives already matter. There is not a history of an historical oppression of white people on the grounds of race in the Western world. White people have never been oppressed in the Western world because they are White. By contrast, Black people have. So there is already a different context. There is a huge history in the US of Black lives not mattering - that is why it is important to reaffirm what should be true: that Black Lives do matter - just as much as any other life. Second of all, the issue is, is that in many of these incidents with law enforcement the victims do not get justice. While you can bet your bottom dollar that in situations of Black on Black crime the killer will be prosecuted, this does not happen in situations with law enforcement. Thus the anger at those situations.
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
I notice you have skirted nicely around the fact that the vast majority of blacks who are murdered are murdered by other blacks. If you genuinely want to save black lives that's where you need to start.
What's your opinion on that?
With respect, while black-on-black murders are a tragedy, they are a separate tragedy.
The issue at hand is simple; are police officers (who are an arm of the State) almost routinely shooting black suspects? Based on some of the footage we've seen, the answer is yes. Simply pointing at an even worse situation is what-aboutery of the first order.
Citizens have collectively outsourced personal defence to the State. It's an implicit contract. If the State can be shown to be violating that contract it is not going to end well.
Footage that looks damning on YouTube may look very different once a Defence Attorney has taken it apart. A police officer who honestly believes he is in imminent danger of being shot, and shoots first, will have a defence to a murder charge. Juries tend to give the benefit of the doubt to police officers.
Wasn't one of the black suspects pinned to the ground before being shot at point blank range?
9m ago 17:45 Baton Rouge police corporal L’Jean McKneely has just given a press conference in which he confirmed “multiple officers were shot, we do have some that were killed. That’s what I know for sure right now.”
He also confirmed that one suspect had been killed. “We’re securing the area with a deceased suspect, a suspect that has been killed. We’re making sure there aren’t any explosives in the area.”
McKneely said that police were using a bomb-defusing robot to secure the scene, and make sure there were no explosives on or around the deceased suspect.
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
Nonsense.
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
They react that way because:
... Because they think that all lives don't matter.
Or that whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter.
It boils down to the same thing.
And very clearly you haven't read my reply. If you weren't going to, why respond?
I read it, and it's nonsense. [Edit: or at least your point (a) can be summarised as "whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter".]
There is a word for people of one race who think that they can say that their lives matter but people of another race can't say the same for themselves.
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
Nonsense.
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
They react that way because:
... Because they think that all lives don't matter.
Or that whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter.
It boils down to the same thing.
And very clearly you haven't read my reply. If you weren't going to, why respond?
I read it, and it's nonsense.
There is a word for people of one race who think that they can say that their lives matter but people of another race can't say the same for themselves.
It's not nonsense.
As stated before white lives already matter. Historically in the Western world white people have not been oppressed because they are white. By contrast, there is a massive history, particularly in the US of Black lives being seen not to matter - slavery, segregation, and racism which is still a thing today.
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
Nonsense.
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
They react that way because:
... Because they think that all lives don't matter.
Or that whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter.
It boils down to the same thing.
And very clearly you haven't read my reply. If you weren't going to, why respond?
I read it, and it's nonsense.
There is a word for people of one race who think that they can say that their lives matter but people of another race can't say the same for themselves.
It's not nonsense.
As stated before white lives already matter. Historically in the Western world white people have not been oppressed because they are white. By contrast, there is a massive history, particularly in the US of Black lives being seen not to matter - slavery, segregation, and racism which is still a thing today.
No, it really is. You're bogged down in talking about the past, I'm talking about the present.
It is difficult, as a white, middle aged Englishman to get my head around the parlous state race relations has got itself into in the US. It's equally as hard to put myself in the shoes of young black American males. I don't get racially abused, or feel particularly at threat from gun crime, well any crime at all, really. On the face of it, BLM seems a little radical for me, but it is without doubt that the Police in the US are doing themselves no favours. It just appears that the US is heading towards trouble, with no easy fix on the horizon.
The problem stems from segregation. Not the legal segregation 'back of the bus' stuff that came to an end many decades ago, but the semi-voluntary segregation that persists in most large US cities with significant black populations.
They effectively have 'black neighbourhoods', black churches, black businesses, black transport systems... wholly segregated areas where non-blacks are afraid to go (and which are generally hostile to police who may be called upon to deal with black-on-black crime).
Because communities don't mix, suspicion arises and henceforth racism.
All the TV coverage will be of the inner city crime hotspots, but the answer lies in the flyover states. In small town America, contrary to widespread perception, there is actually more racial integration and less racism. I've been to small towns in the midwest with only a handful of black residents. Guess what - they're far better integrated *because they had to integrate*.
It's probably a similar story to how Asians in Britain did a better job of integrating during the 50s and 60s than is often the case in Muslim communities today - given sufficient numbers, people tend to group together exclusively with their own kind and this does nobody any favours ultimately. Smaller numbers have no choice but to mix in, and that's better for everybody.
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
Thread too long to nest so final comment pasted here
My opinion of BLM, is that they should in reality be named BLM (If shot by the police).
To believe they are actually concerned about killings by the police, it would be all of them, be it a white cop black victim or black cop white victim.
They don't do that, they are a political organization., which is fine, if they admit that's what they are.
But before my desire to get all people treated equally and actually worry about the horrific murder rates of young black men gets me labelled as being of the far right I'll leave it at that.
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
Nonsense.
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
They react that way because:
... Because they think that all lives don't matter.
Or that whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter.
It boils down to the same thing.
And very clearly you haven't read my reply. If you weren't going to, why respond?
I read it, and it's nonsense.
There is a word for people of one race who think that they can say that their lives matter but people of another race can't say the same for themselves.
It's not nonsense.
As stated before white lives already matter. Historically in the Western world white people have not been oppressed because they are white. By contrast, there is a massive history, particularly in the US of Black lives being seen not to matter - slavery, segregation, and racism which is still a thing today.
No, it really is. You're bogged down in talking about the past, I'm talking about the present.
I'm 'bogged down in the past' because it provides an important historical context necessary to this discussion. Because the past is very much relevant today. Racism against minorities didn't die after the Civil Rights Movement.
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
you probably don't want to know we won our davis cup tie then.
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
Nonsense.
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
They react that way because:
... Because they think that all lives don't matter.
Or that whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter.
It boils down to the same thing.
And very clearly you haven't read my reply. If you weren't going to, why respond?
I read it, and it's nonsense.
There is a word for people of one race who think that they can say that their lives matter but people of another race can't say the same for themselves.
It's not nonsense.
As stated before white lives already matter. Historically in the Western world white people have not been oppressed because they are white. By contrast, there is a massive history, particularly in the US of Black lives being seen not to matter - slavery, segregation, and racism which is still a thing today.
No, it really is. You're bogged down in talking about the past, I'm talking about the present.
I'm 'bogged down in the past' because it provides an important historical context necessary to this discussion. Because the past is very much relevant today. Racism against minorities didn't die after the Civil Rights Movement.
You're a short step away from actually saying that it's OK to discriminate against whites because in the past there was discrimination against blacks.
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
Nonsense.
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
They react that way because:
... Because they think that all lives don't matter.
Or that whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter.
It boils down to the same thing.
And very clearly you haven't read my reply. If you weren't going to, why respond?
I read it, and it's nonsense.
There is a word for people of one race who think that they can say that their lives matter but people of another race can't say the same for themselves.
It's not nonsense.
As stated before white lives already matter. Historically in the Western world white people have not been oppressed because they are white. By contrast, there is a massive history, particularly in the US of Black lives being seen not to matter - slavery, segregation, and racism which is still a thing today.
No, it really is. You're bogged down in talking about the past, I'm talking about the present.
I'm 'bogged down in the past' because it provides an important historical context necessary to this discussion. Because the past is very much relevant today. Racism against minorities didn't die after the Civil Rights Movement.
You're a short step away from actually saying that it's OK to discriminate against whites because in the past there was discrimination against blacks.
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
Nonsense.
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
They react that way because:
... Because they think that all lives don't matter.
Or that whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter.
It boils down to the same thing.
And very clearly you haven't read my reply. If you weren't going to, why respond?
I read it, and it's nonsense.
There is a word for people of one race who think that they can say that their lives matter but people of another race can't say the same for themselves.
It's not nonsense.
As stated before white lives already matter. Historically in the Western world white people have not been oppressed because they are white. By contrast, there is a massive history, particularly in the US of Black lives being seen not to matter - slavery, segregation, and racism which is still a thing today.
No, it really is. You're bogged down in talking about the past, I'm talking about the present.
I'm 'bogged down in the past' because it provides an important historical context necessary to this discussion. Because the past is very much relevant today. Racism against minorities didn't die after the Civil Rights Movement.
You're a short step away from actually saying that it's OK to discriminate against whites because in the past there was discrimination against blacks.
That's a fairly orthodox left wing view, isn't it? Certainly in the US
It is an interesting conundrum. On the face of it EURefII seems non-democratic: we have spoken, innit.
But then again, putting the final deal to the public seems quite democratic-y.
But we can't continue to have referendums until we all agree on the Brexit version we prefer; it would take decades.
I think a general election is needed before another referendum is held.
The arguments for a GE are quite strong. May conservatism is quite clearly going to be different to Cameron conservatism, which is what people voted for last year (insofar as you accept that FPTP is legitimate). OK, going on first impressions personally I prefer it, but the people have had no say. The top team running the country is now significantly changed. Within months it is going to become clear what sort of Brexit the government is aiming for, which may or may not be what the majority of the U.K. population might support.
And from a Conservative point of view, I think the arguments for an Autumn GE are quite strong, as Andrew Neil's acolytes on bbcsp today clearly were thinking.
You're a short step away from actually saying that it's OK to discriminate against whites because in the past there was discrimination against blacks.
What?
I don't know quite how you come to that conclusion, but then this is PB so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'm afraid the issue is that discrimination against Blacks is very much a present and not just a past issue.
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
Nonsense.
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
They react that way because:
... Because they think that all lives don't matter.
Or that whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter.
It boils down to the same thing.
And very clearly you haven't read my reply. If you weren't going to, why respond?
I read it, and it's nonsense.
There is a word for people of one race who think that they can say that their lives matter but people of another race can't say the same for themselves.
It's not nonsense.
As stated before white lives already matter. Historically in the Western world white people have not been oppressed because they are white. By contrast, there is a massive history, particularly in the US of Black lives being seen not to matter - slavery, segregation, and racism which is still a thing today.
No, it really is. You're bogged down in talking about the past, I'm talking about the present.
I'm 'bogged down in the past' because it provides an important historical context necessary to this discussion. Because the past is very much relevant today. Racism against minorities didn't die after the Civil Rights Movement.
Given the Spanish used to burn protestants in the past , do you think it woudl be justified if we had protestant lives matter and they were happy that Catholics were getting shot. The past is te hpast good bad or indifferent. People need to be looking at the present and future and not thinking they should get any special treatment because of the past.
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
you probably don't want to know we won our davis cup tie then.
You'd have to tell me which sport it was and who we are playing before I could even begin to consider whether I cared.
Surely there are lots of sports discussion sites where such pointless chat is more appropriate? ;-)
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
I was just musing about the oddity of PB where at the moment there are two threads entirely intertwined, one regarding the cricket at Lords and the other racial tensions and the shooting of police officers in USA.
Meanwhile everyone pretty much ignores the thread header which SoObs has taken considerable time to write no doubt.
It is though one of the good things about PB in many ways and I can prove that I can multitask and follow a number of different conversations on different subjects all at the same time.
This is pretty much what an NEC meeting must be like I guess?
You're a short step away from actually saying that it's OK to discriminate against whites because in the past there was discrimination against blacks.
What?
I don't know quite how you come to that conclusion, but then this is PB so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'm afraid the issue is that discrimination against Blacks is very much a present and not just a past issue.
Next you will be telling us all Blacks are innocent , never commit crimes and its just persecution by nasty whites
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
Nonsense.
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
They react that way because:
... Because they think that all lives don't matter.
Or that whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter.
It boils down to the same thing.
And very clearly you haven't read my reply. If you weren't going to, why respond?
I read it, and it's nonsense.
There is a word for people of one race who think that they can say that their lives matter but people of another race can't say the same for themselves.
It's not nonsense.
As stated before white lives already matter. Historically in the Western world white people have not been oppressed because they are white. By contrast, there is a massive history, particularly in the US of Black lives being seen not to matter - slavery, segregation, and racism which is still a thing today.
No, it really is. You're bogged down in talking about the past, I'm talking about the present.
I'm 'bogged down in the past' because it provides an important historical context necessary to this discussion. Because the past is very much relevant today. Racism against minorities didn't die after the Civil Rights Movement.
Given the Spanish used to burn protestants in the past , do you think it woudl be justified if we had protestant lives matter and they were happy that Catholics were getting shot. The past is te hpast good bad or indifferent. People need to be looking at the present and future and not thinking they should get any special treatment because of the past.
Nobody is looking for special treatment.
Protestants are not being systematically discriminated against today.
The trouble is, is that the past isn't just the past. Racism is still an issue that many Black people in America face today, that is the problem. The past very much still affects the Black community in the US. But as one PBer noted it must be difficult for British Conservatives to understand the perspective of young Black men and women in the US.
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
Tennis is a quick-fire sport, unlike boring Test Cricket, which is a game invented, played and watched by people with FAR too much time on their hands!
You're a short step away from actually saying that it's OK to discriminate against whites because in the past there was discrimination against blacks.
What?
I don't know quite how you come to that conclusion, but then this is PB so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'm afraid the issue is that discrimination against Blacks is very much a present and not just a past issue.
Next you will be telling us all Blacks are innocent , never commit crimes and its just persecution by nasty whites
Sir Benjamin, I was just going to mention the voluntary segregation happens here, and elsewhere too. It's not good for social cohesion, amongst other things.
You're a short step away from actually saying that it's OK to discriminate against whites because in the past there was discrimination against blacks.
What?
I don't know quite how you come to that conclusion, but then this is PB so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'm afraid the issue is that discrimination against Blacks is very much a present and not just a past issue.
I came to that conclusion by applying logic.
The problem, insofar as there is still a problem, is that perceived discrimination against blacks far outstrips the reality.
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
Tennis is a quick-fire sport, unlike boring Test Cricket, which is a game invented, played and watched by people with FAR too much time on their hands!
Test Cricket is almost as boring as Golf!
*dives for cover*
Congratulations, Sunil, I have been on this site for several years waiting for you to say something sensible.
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
I was just musing about the oddity of PB where at the moment there are two threads entirely intertwined, one regarding the cricket at Lords and the other racial tensions and the shooting of police officers in USA.
Meanwhile everyone pretty much ignores the thread header which SoObs has taken considerable time to write no doubt.
It is though one of the good things about PB in many ways and I can prove that I can multitask and follow a number of different conversations on different subjects all at the same time.
This is pretty much what an NEC meeting must be like I guess?
To be honest I've had a damn good ding dong with @Jobabob over Labour and their shenanigans throughout several threads where it wasn't the header
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
Nonsense.
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
They react that way because:
... Because they think that all lives don't matter.
Or that whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter.
It boils down to the same thing.
And very clearly you haven't read my reply. If you weren't going to, why respond?
I read it, and it's nonsense.
There is a word for people of one race who think that they can say that their lives matter but people of another race can't say the same for themselves.
It's not nonsense.
As stated before white lives already matter. Historically in the Western world white people have not been oppressed because they are white. By contrast, there is a massive history, particularly in the US of Black lives being seen not to matter - slavery, segregation, and racism which is still a thing today.
No, it really is. You're bogged down in talking about the past, I'm talking about the present.
I'm 'bogged down in the past' because it provides an important historical context necessary to this discussion. Because the past is very much relevant today. Racism against minorities didn't die after the Civil Rights Movement.
Given the Spanish used to burn protestants in the past , do you think it woudl be justified if we had protestant lives matter and they were happy that Catholics were getting shot. The past is te hpast good bad or indifferent. People need to be looking at the present and future and not thinking they should get any special treatment because of the past.
Nobody is looking for special treatment.
Protestants are not being systematically discriminated against today.
The trouble is, is that the past isn't just the past. Racism is still an issue that many Black people in America face today, that is the problem. The past very much still affects the Black community in the US. But as one PBer noted it must be difficult for British Conservatives to understand the perspective of young Black men and women in the US.
What gives the British Lefty a much better insight? Oh wait, how am I forgetting? They are morally superior to Tory scum.
Protestants are not being systematically discriminated against today.
The trouble is, is that the past isn't just the past. Racism is still an issue that many Black people in America face today, that is the problem. The past very much still affects the Black community in the US. But as one PBer noted it must be difficult for British Conservatives to understand the perspective of young Black men and women in the US.
--------------------------------------------
But as some groups have demanded reparations for slavery, why shouldn't that principle be extended further? How about reparations for the seizure of property by the Normans and the genocide of the harrying of the north?
You're a short step away from actually saying that it's OK to discriminate against whites because in the past there was discrimination against blacks.
What?
I don't know quite how you come to that conclusion, but then this is PB so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'm afraid the issue is that discrimination against Blacks is very much a present and not just a past issue.
No, it's you - you said as much re white supremacists earlier. That your first response is labelling another as 'right-wing' then later blanket dismissal as 'this is PB' says a lot about your position.
You're a short step away from actually saying that it's OK to discriminate against whites because in the past there was discrimination against blacks.
What?
I don't know quite how you come to that conclusion, but then this is PB so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'm afraid the issue is that discrimination against Blacks is very much a present and not just a past issue.
I came to that conclusion by applying logic.
The problem, insofar as there is still a problem, is that perceived discrimination against blacks far outstrips the reality.
You're a short step away from actually saying that it's OK to discriminate against whites because in the past there was discrimination against blacks.
What?
I don't know quite how you come to that conclusion, but then this is PB so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'm afraid the issue is that discrimination against Blacks is very much a present and not just a past issue.
I came to that conclusion by applying logic.
The problem, insofar as there is still a problem, is that perceived discrimination against blacks far outstrips the reality.
So Black people are imagining that they are being discriminated against? Well if that's the case then I am done here. If after everything, you all believe that the issues in the US are down black people 'segregating themselves' , and imaging racism and discrimination, well there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise.
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
Breaking up the clutter of political minutiae with sports or other inanities not only helps keep the political debate refreshed by offering moments of break, it helps keep things civil by creating a broader community identity rather than just yelling about politics at one another. It's easier to be less enraged by some stubborn political idiot if you permit them to also bring up their favourite fantasy novels, sports interests, business happenings and what they think about Hannibal Barca.
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
Tennis is a quick-fire sport, unlike boring Test Cricket, which is a game invented, played and watched by people with FAR too much time on their hands!
Test Cricket is almost as boring as Golf!
*dives for cover*
Congratulations, Sunil, I have been on this site for several years waiting for you to say something sensible.
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
Nonsense.
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
They react that way because:
... Because they think that all lives don't matter.
Or that whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter.
It boils down to the same thing.
And very clearly you haven't read my reply. If you weren't going to, why respond?
I read it, and it's nonsense.
There is a word for people of one race who think that they can say that their lives matter but people of another race can't say the same for themselves.
It's not nonsense.
As stated before white lives already matter. Historically in the Western world white people have not been oppressed because they are white. By contrast, there is a massive history, particularly in the US of Black lives being seen not to matter - slavery, segregation, and racism which is still a thing today.
No, it really is. You're bogged down in talking about the past, I'm talking about the present.
I'm 'bogged down in the past' because it provides an important historical context necessary to this discussion. Because the past is very much relevant today. Racism against minorities didn't die after the Civil Righ
Nobody is looking for special treatment.
Protestants are not being systematically discriminated against today.
The trouble is, is that the past isn't just the past. Racism is still an issue that many Black people in America face today, that is the problem. The past very much still affects the Black community in the US. But as one PBer noted it must be difficult for British Conservatives to understand the perspective of young Black men and women in the US.
I was going to leave this alone but can't let this past uncommented.
Do you believe that white people are subjected to racism in America?
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
Nonsense.
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
They react that way because:
... Because they think that all lives don't matter.
Or that whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter.
It boils down to the same thing.
And very clearly you haven't read my reply. If you weren't going to, why respond?
I read it, and it's nonsense.
There is a word for people of one race who think that they can say that their lives matter but people of another race can't say the same for themselves.
It's not nonsense.
As stated before white lives already matter. Historically in the Western world white people have not been oppressed because they are white. By contrast, there is a massive history, particularly in the US of Black lives being seen not to matter - slavery, segregation, and racism which is still a thing today.
No, it really is. You're bogged down in talking about the past, I'm talking about the present.
I'
.
Nobody is looking for special treatment.
Protestants are not being systematically discriminated against today.
The trouble is, is that the past isn't just the past. Racism is still an issue that many Black people in America face today, that is the problem. The past very much still affects the Black community in the US. But as one PBer noted it must be difficult for British Conservatives to understand the perspective of young Black men and women in the US.
I know it is an issue and its wrong but shooting policemen is not the answer. It is hard to understand for me , I don't give a chuff about somepones colour , religion etc and find it bizarre how F***ed up the world is on the subject. America is a very special case ad prejusic eis not limited there, it is money based in most cases. I don't really understand why people are racist but it is not exclusive to whites.
What gives the British Lefty a much better insight? Oh wait, how am I forgetting? They are morally superior to Tory scum.
I don't view all Tories as scum. I have in my life noticed however, that on complex racial issues those who are right-wing are not likely to be sympathetic to the views of minorities.
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
Tennis is a quick-fire sport, unlike boring Test Cricket, which is a game invented, played and watched by people with FAR too much time on their hands!
Test Cricket is almost as boring as Golf!
*dives for cover*
Congratulations, Sunil, I have been on this site for several years waiting for you to say something sensible.
His Tebbit chip is on the fritz again...
I've long thought he never had one installed at all, it's a disgrace I tell you.
You're a short step away from actually saying that it's OK to discriminate against whites because in the past there was discrimination against blacks.
What?
I don't know quite how you come to that conclusion, but then this is PB so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'm afraid the issue is that discrimination against Blacks is very much a present and not just a past issue.
I came to that conclusion by applying logic.
The problem, insofar as there is still a problem, is that perceived discrimination against blacks far outstrips the reality.
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
Breaking up the clutter of political minutiae with sports or other inanities not only helps keep the political debate refreshed by offering moments of break, it helps keep things civil by creating a broader community identity rather than just yelling about politics at one another. It's easier to be less enraged by some stubborn political idiot if you permit them to also bring up their favourite fantasy novels, sports interests, business happenings and what they think about Hannibal Barca.
Fair point - if there's betting possibility involved - just a week ago I won enough for a nice bottle of wine with my dinner from backing a horse racing tip someone had kindly put up on here.
But comments that are neither POLITICAL nor BETTING surely belong somewhere else?
You're a short step away from actually saying that it's OK to discriminate against whites because in the past there was discrimination against blacks.
What?
I don't know quite how you come to that conclusion, but then this is PB so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'm afraid the issue is that discrimination against Blacks is very much a present and not just a past issue.
I came to that conclusion by applying logic.
The problem, insofar as there is still a problem, is that perceived discrimination against blacks far outstrips the reality.
So Black people are imagining that they are being discriminated against?
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
Breaking up the clutter of political minutiae with sports or other inanities not only helps keep the political debate refreshed by offering moments of break, it helps keep things civil by creating a broader community identity rather than just yelling about politics at one another. It's easier to be less enraged by some stubborn political idiot if you permit them to also bring up their favourite fantasy novels, sports interests, business happenings and what they think about Hannibal Barca.
Fair point - if there's betting possibility involved - just a week ago I won enough for a nice bottle of wine with my dinner from backing a horse racing tip someone had kindly put up on here.
But comments that are neither POLITICAL nor BETTING surely belong somewhere else?
Then PB would lose it's pub atmosphere, as (I think) SeanT once put it.
You're a short step away from actually saying that it's OK to discriminate against whites because in the past there was discrimination against blacks.
What?
I don't know quite how you come to that conclusion, but then this is PB so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'm afraid the issue is that discrimination against Blacks is very much a present and not just a past issue.
No, it's you - you said as much re white supremacists earlier. That your first response is labelling another as 'right-wing' then later blanket dismissal as 'this is PB' says a lot about your position.
I don't get your point re white supremacists. I think the trouble is you see white supremacists and BLM as equivalents. I simply didn't agree with your point and explained why.
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
I was just musing about the oddity of PB where at the moment there are two threads entirely intertwined, one regarding the cricket at Lords and the other racial tensions and the shooting of police officers in USA.
Meanwhile everyone pretty much ignores the thread header which SoObs has taken considerable time to write no doubt.
It is though one of the good things about PB in many ways and I can prove that I can multitask and follow a number of different conversations on different subjects all at the same time.
This is pretty much what an NEC meeting must be like I guess?
I don't follow a lot of the PB running sports commentary - I usually read threads hours later, rather than "live", so they rarely add much value to me, other than from curiosity of the following sort: "oh look, they thought they actually had a chance as late as 3 pm"!
Nevertheless, lots of people who bet on politics bet on sport too, and the sport markets tend to be more liquid. So it isn't really out of place to see discussions of probabilities and odds on sporting events. Or even other non-political things like Eurovision, an event I have never watched and have zero interest in, but nevertheless somehow "fits" on PB.
The discussions of classical antiquity have rather less betting significance but are welcome regardless :-)
Why do some PB'ers think we want all this sports commentary? The title of the site is clear enough. Watching cricket is the only thing I can think of that is worse than watching tennis.
Tennis is a quick-fire sport, unlike boring Test Cricket, which is a game invented, played and watched by people with FAR too much time on their hands!
Test Cricket is almost as boring as Golf!
*dives for cover*
Congratulations, Sunil, I have been on this site for several years waiting for you to say something sensible.
His Tebbit chip is on the fritz again...
Cricket is by far the most popular sport in the Subcontinent, whereas Football is the most popular sport in Blighty ;P
What gives the British Lefty a much better insight? Oh wait, how am I forgetting? They are morally superior to Tory scum.
I don't view all Tories as scum. I have in my life noticed however, that on complex racial issues those who are right-wing are not likely to be sympathetic to the views of minorities.
I wonder, would a British Conservative living in America have more insight than a British Lefty living in Britain... *innocent face*
@ThreeQuidder BLM does not imply other lives are less important that others. Saying BLM does not mean others don't.
Nonsense.
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
They react that way because:
... Because they think that all lives don't matter.
Or that whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter.
It boils down to the same thing.
And very clearly you haven't read my reply. If you weren't going to, why respond?
I read it, and it's nonsense.
There is a word for people of one race who think that they can say that their lives matter but people of another race can't say the same for themselves.
It's not nonsense.
As stated before white lives already matter. Historically in the Western world white people have not been oppressed because they are white. By contrast, there is a massive history, particularly in the US of Black lives being seen not to matter - slavery, segregation, and racism which is still a thing today.
No, it really is. You're bogged down in talking about the past, I'm talking about the present.
I'
.
Nobody is looking for special treatment.
Protestants are not being systematically discriminated against today.
The trouble is, is that the past isn't just the past. Racism is still an issue that many Black people in America face today, that is the problem. The past very much still affects the Black community in the US. But as one PBer noted it must be difficult for British Conservatives to understand the perspective of young Black men and women in the US.
I know it is an issue and its wrong but shooting policemen is not the answer. It is hard to understand for me , I don't give a chuff about somepones colour , religion etc and find it bizarre how F***ed up the world is on the subject. America is a very special case ad prejusic eis not limited there, it is money based in most cases. I don't really understand why people are racist but it is not exclusive to whites.
You need to remember that, according to the left, only whites can be racist (and only men can be sexist).
You're a short step away from actually saying that it's OK to discriminate against whites because in the past there was discrimination against blacks.
What?
I don't know quite how you come to that conclusion, but then this is PB so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'm afraid the issue is that discrimination against Blacks is very much a present and not just a past issue.
I came to that conclusion by applying logic.
The problem, insofar as there is still a problem, is that perceived discrimination against blacks far outstrips the reality.
A baffling conclusion.
Perceived by whom, exactly?
Perceived by blacks, obviously.
So the people who suffer discrimination aren't a good judge of the discrimination they face?
@saddened I would never say no white person in the US has ever faced racism. @malcolmg I totally agree shooting police officers is wrong. RIP to all those who lost their lives today, and in Dallas.
Comments
Well, theoretically true, but look how the BLM people react to people who say "all lives matter".
Is an interesting pitch to look forward to
Thinking your spouse may not come home each night is always a worry for law enforcement families, knowing that a small number of racists are seeking to shoot them is an entirely different kettle of fish.
God knows what's going to happen in Cleveland tomorrow with the Trump convention. IIRC it's a open carry state.
(a. 'All Lives matter' has become a way of shutting down debate on the relationship between Black people and law enforcement in the US. It has become a way of shutting down debate on the grievances many Black people have about that situation.
(b. Second of all, it's clear that sadly all lives are not seen as mattering in the US.
A PBer brought up Facebook employees writing 'All Lives Matter'. I actually think that Mark Zuckerburg's response to that was fantastic and explains the situation well re saying 'all lives matter'.
Assuming Woakes is going to go after it now...
Probably all over in 5 minutes
Steve Finn = Graham Dilley
I hope
Come on Finn.
Or that whites shouldn't be allowed to say that all lives matter.
It boils down to the same thing.
Police statement
9m ago
17:45
Baton Rouge police corporal L’Jean McKneely has just given a press conference in which he confirmed “multiple officers were shot, we do have some that were killed. That’s what I know for sure right now.”
He also confirmed that one suspect had been killed. “We’re securing the area with a deceased suspect, a suspect that has been killed. We’re making sure there aren’t any explosives in the area.”
McKneely said that police were using a bomb-defusing robot to secure the scene, and make sure there were no explosives on or around the deceased suspect.
Muslim-Controlled IndiaPakistan!(only kidding, TSE!)
There is a word for people of one race who think that they can say that their lives matter but people of another race can't say the same for themselves.
As stated before white lives already matter. Historically in the Western world white people have not been oppressed because they are white. By contrast, there is a massive history, particularly in the US of Black lives being seen not to matter - slavery, segregation, and racism which is still a thing today.
They effectively have 'black neighbourhoods', black churches, black businesses, black transport systems... wholly segregated areas where non-blacks are afraid to go (and which are generally hostile to police who may be called upon to deal with black-on-black crime).
Because communities don't mix, suspicion arises and henceforth racism.
All the TV coverage will be of the inner city crime hotspots, but the answer lies in the flyover states. In small town America, contrary to widespread perception, there is actually more racial integration and less racism. I've been to small towns in the midwest with only a handful of black residents. Guess what - they're far better integrated *because they had to integrate*.
It's probably a similar story to how Asians in Britain did a better job of integrating during the 50s and 60s than is often the case in Muslim communities today - given sufficient numbers, people tend to group together exclusively with their own kind and this does nobody any favours ultimately. Smaller numbers have no choice but to mix in, and that's better for everybody.
Thread too long to nest so final comment pasted here
My opinion of BLM, is that they should in reality be named BLM (If shot by the police).
To believe they are actually concerned about killings by the police, it would be all of them, be it a white cop black victim or black cop white victim.
They don't do that, they are a political organization., which is fine, if they admit that's what they are.
But before my desire to get all people treated equally and actually worry about the horrific murder rates of young black men gets me labelled as being of the far right I'll leave it at that.
And from a Conservative point of view, I think the arguments for an Autumn GE are quite strong, as Andrew Neil's acolytes on bbcsp today clearly were thinking.
I don't know quite how you come to that conclusion, but then this is PB so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'm afraid the issue is that discrimination against Blacks is very much a present and not just a past issue.
Not looking like a lone crazy...add to the mystery 100k, now texts to other people about weapons etc.
Surely there are lots of sports discussion sites where such pointless chat is more appropriate? ;-)
Meanwhile everyone pretty much ignores the thread header which SoObs has taken considerable time to write no doubt.
It is though one of the good things about PB in many ways and I can prove that I can multitask and follow a number of different conversations on different subjects all at the same time.
This is pretty much what an NEC meeting must be like I guess?
Protestants are not being systematically discriminated against today.
The trouble is, is that the past isn't just the past. Racism is still an issue that many Black people in America face today, that is the problem. The past very much still affects the Black community in the US. But as one PBer noted it must be difficult for British Conservatives to understand the perspective of young Black men and women in the US.
Test Cricket is almost as boring as Golf!
*dives for cover*
The problem, insofar as there is still a problem, is that perceived discrimination against blacks far outstrips the reality.
Nobody is looking for special treatment.
Protestants are not being systematically discriminated against today.
The trouble is, is that the past isn't just the past. Racism is still an issue that many Black people in America face today, that is the problem. The past very much still affects the Black community in the US. But as one PBer noted it must be difficult for British Conservatives to understand the perspective of young Black men and women in the US.
--------------------------------------------
But as some groups have demanded reparations for slavery, why shouldn't that principle be extended further? How about reparations for the seizure of property by the Normans and the genocide of the harrying of the north?
Perceived by whom, exactly?
I don't really understand why people are racist but it is not exclusive to whites.
But comments that are neither POLITICAL nor BETTING surely belong somewhere else?
Nevertheless, lots of people who bet on politics bet on sport too, and the sport markets tend to be more liquid. So it isn't really out of place to see discussions of probabilities and odds on sporting events. Or even other non-political things like Eurovision, an event I have never watched and have zero interest in, but nevertheless somehow "fits" on PB.
The discussions of classical antiquity have rather less betting significance but are welcome regardless :-)
That's as offensive as when Nero threw Hasdrubal's severed head in Hannibal's general direction.
I have no idea how people make money betting on golf - so many potential winners...
What a patronising attitude.
@malcolmg I totally agree shooting police officers is wrong. RIP to all those who lost their lives today, and in Dallas.