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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn and McCluskey, comrades in arms
One of the more striking aspects of Labour’s headlong plunge into seemingly permanent civil war and irrelevance is the role being played by the trade unions in the conflict; and, in particular, the unwavering and highly vocal support that Jeremy Corbyn has received from Unite leader Len McCluskey.
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First?0
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McClusky is on a good salary, why cannot he buy razor blades? Designer stubble might work on a young, rugged sort of chap but on a chap in his sixties it just looks as if he is too senile to groom himself properly.0
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Second like the Kippers if Jez stays
Edit: Third like SDP20 -
Interesting thread header @SouthamObserver, thank you.
I wonder what the consequences will be for Unite if Mr McCluskey is replaced by someone much farther to the left than he is, though. It isn't merely a personal 'wanting to keep his job', is it?
(Good afternoon, everyone)0 -
I still think that his was the photo that could have swung the referendum Cameron's way, if only he had published it beforehand:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnPg_PtWYAA_Wn8.jpg0 -
Joff is an unusual name. Where r ur parents from?0
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My name is Jonathan. Joff is something I got stuck with when I was a kid and it never went away!nunu said:Joff is an unusual name. Where r ur parents from?
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Westeros.SouthamObserver said:
My name is Jonathan. Joff is something I got stuck with when I was a kid and it never went away!nunu said:Joff is an unusual name. Where r ur parents from?
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Interesting piece, SO. Think you may be onto something there - however, Uncle Len does seem to be sincere in his support for Corbyn too.
Perhaps there's rather a lot of both going on there.0 -
I think all of the unions are trying to keep themselves relevant. Most of my colleagues are only in our union for the legal support that might- just might-help us keep our jobs in a disciplinary scenario with management. Of course, there is the collective bargaining aspect, but we've still only had a one percent payrise for the past 5 years or so, so even that is limited. Striking- unless you're a train driver- has little effect, apart from helping inflating the egos of both union leaders on one side, and senior management on the other.
McCluskey keeping in with Corbyn's brand of Labour gives him a chance to make his union a big player, perhaps give it some power in the unlikely event Corbynism move on from being just a protest movement. He knows that soft left Labour, the so called Red Tories, know that employment law has outpaced the unions, and so don't feel the need to court them so much as a Labour MP in the past might have done. The FBU is firmly wedded to Corbynism as well, and is actively pushing us to follow him.0 -
Cheers Mr Observer, not much one can add really. – Corbyn and McCluskey remind me of two old men permanently stuck in the 80s, reliving their glory days.
Statler and Waldorf, but without the charm.0 -
Anecdote alert, shared because it fits my prejudices.
I was at a wedding up North yesterday, and talk around the table inevitably got to the referendum. The guy next to me said that he doesn't follow politics much so had no preconceived notions before he watched all the debates.
What swung his vote was how the Leave camp were saying how things could be better if we left, whilst the Remain camp were just saying why we shouldn't leave and giving no reasons why things would get better if we stayed.0 -
FPT
I know you're a Leaver; I wasn't referring to you.kle4 said:
I'm a leaver actually. I simp,y felt the union was on the way out anyway. If someone coukd have guaranteed Scotland would stay, I'd have voted remain. I'd rather be in the eu with Scotland than out of it without Scotland. Sadly long term I didn't see it as an option, so went with my head and voted leave.Luckyguy1983 said:This is a silly discussion. There won't be a second Indy referendum. It's just making the nats here feel warm and cuddly again till they wake up and remember they lost. This time being oddly cheered on by lachrymose Remains who can't take the fact that they lost the EUref and want DOOM for everyone until Auntie Theresa tells them it's all been a bad dream.
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Me and Sam both on Ballance England top scorer.
Unfortunately was for the first innings.
Chinned !0 -
Thanks for the piece SO. I'm still puzzled as to what Labour are actually _for_ anymore. Ditto unions. We've achieved a decent level of workers' rights in this country. There's no real argument that workers should be well treated. There's a remarkable absence of satanic mills.
Outside the public sector, unions don't seem to have much to offer, other than the same sorts of benefits I get from my Waitrose partnership card. A discount here, a discount there etc.
They can't sustain themselves on a message of 'not-Tory', it's clearly not working.
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Union leaders only care about membership numbers. What's best for McCluskey and co? The evil Tories still in government of course imposing nasty austerity and damage to public services which means people dissatisfied in their droves join unions.
Deep down they don't want Labour in government.0 -
One of the striking differences between now, and Labour's crisis in the 1980s, is the starkly different position of the party's Union wing - back then the rock for the moderates that eventually enabled the left to be marginalised, now the key constituency that is defending the left.
Part of the problem, I think, is the internal dynamics of union politics (which isn't at all representative of the membership, as SO says). From two decades' observation of the union I used to deal with, it was almost always the case that you could only successfully challenge an incumbent Union officer (at any level, from branch right up to Gen Sec) from the left. The typical sequence of events would be that a Union officer does a deal with management. The political opportunity for his (and they are mostly men) opponent is to attack the deal as being inadequate (in much stronger terms than that!) and get into office promising to more combative/robust etc. After a few years the new incumbent faces the same process, and gradually the officials become more and more left wing.
Hence there are a number of key unions nowadays, including the FBU, for whom even today's Labour Party is too right-wing, and others such as the CWU that regularly contemplate disaffiliation.
The fact that the political gulf between Labour's trade union wing and their representatives in parliament is so great - and that the politics here won't change much under any leader (barring widespread reselections) - is a further reason why some sort of split in the movement looks more and more likely.0 -
Joff Wild - is that your Game of Thrones name? Very cool....0
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Owen Smith launching his leadership bid.0
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In a large workplace a good union rep can be a real asset and there is a lot of good work they can do for the benefit of both members and the enterprise. The sadness is that the further you look up the Union tree, the less this is the case, and when you reach the top they are an almost entirely negative influence spending most of their time playing at being politicians. And their internal politics can make what is happening in the Labour Party even now relatively mild: the TU officials are the ultimate machine politicians who know all the tricks in the book. And, ironically, my experience is that most unions are dreadful employers and miles away from exemplifying their own principles.John_M said:Thanks for the piece SO. I'm still puzzled as to what Labour are actually _for_ anymore. Ditto unions. We've achieved a decent level of workers' rights in this country. There's no real argument that workers should be well treated. There's a remarkable absence of satanic mills.
Outside the public sector, unions don't seem to have much to offer, other than the same sorts of benefits I get from my Waitrose partnership card. A discount here, a discount there etc.
They can't sustain themselves on a message of 'not-Tory', it's clearly not working.0 -
Seems quite a reasonable pitch. Actually a decent public speaker, which is a novelty in the modern Labour Party.AndyJS said:Owen Smith launching his leadership bid.
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https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=Owen Smith&src=tyah&lang=en-gb - And Momentum attack ads are all over it.AndyJS said:Owen Smith launching his leadership bid.
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Well, Remain did try every other tack apart from "Ooooh! Kittens! Look, kittens everybody, kittens!"HurstLlama said:I still think that his was the photo that could have swung the referendum Cameron's way, if only he had published it beforehand:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnPg_PtWYAA_Wn8.jpg0 -
Eagle was very poor on Marr earlier. Asked why she should be leader she basically just said she was a working class northern woman and it was their turn to have a go.0
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A good article Mr @SouthamObserver, good to hear from someone on the inside of these things.
As you say those who are active in the TU movement are a small subset of Union members in general, most of whom, from anecdotal evidence of friends, join the Union for the benefits of workplace disciplinary counsellors and discounted car insurance, rather than the politics.0 -
Remain could never have been that positive. It would have been 'Vote no, or Larry gets it, capiche?'.MarqueeMark said:
Well, Remain did try every other tack apart from "Ooooh! Kittens! Look, kittens everybody, kittens!"HurstLlama said:I still think that his was the photo that could have swung the referendum Cameron's way, if only he had published it beforehand:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnPg_PtWYAA_Wn8.jpg0 -
Thanks @JosiasJessop for the video of Heidi Allen MP from the last thread. Very informative and good to see MPs engaging in that way with their constituents.0
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Says he'll promise a second referendum on Brexit if he becomes Labour leader. I guess he's hoping May calls a GE before Article 50 is triggered.SimonStClare said:
https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=Owen Smith&src=tyah&lang=en-gb - And Momentum attack adds are all over it.AndyJS said:Owen Smith launching his leadership bid.
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She repeated that on Murnaghan later - very poor indeed. She did look a bit more glamorous and smart - but what an empty message.IanB2 said:Eagle was very poor on Marr earlier. Asked why she should be leader she basically just said she was a working class northern woman and it was their turn to have a go.
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Owen Smith is the 21st Century version of the Vicar of Bray.TwistedFireStopper said:
Says he'll promise a second referendum on Brexit if he becomes Labour leader. I guess he's hoping May calls a GE before Article 50 is triggered.SimonStClare said:
https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=Owen Smith&src=tyah&lang=en-gb - And Momentum attack adds are all over it.AndyJS said:Owen Smith launching his leadership bid.
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I'm afraid, I too, am desperately disappointed Dominic Raab hasn't been given a role in the new government, especially as he is an international lawyer.
The person that worries me most is the condescending, arrogant (tea-room gossip) Alan Duncan going to the Foreign Office. If it's to keep an eye on Boris, then he will cause problems (I expect lots of rumours from "friends" of Mr Duncan). A really bad move.0 -
Just seen the cricket score after being out getting married* this morning, looks to be all over now for England.
*not actually, that was last year, but a blessing at Mrs Sandpit's Orthodox Church in Ukraine, certainly an experience!
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Not sure a second referendum is a winner at all...will just cause further huge divisions and looks as though Labour ignoring some of its traditional heartlands who voted leave in such large numbers.TwistedFireStopper said:
Says he'll promise a second referendum on Brexit if he becomes Labour leader. I guess he's hoping May calls a GE before Article 50 is triggered.SimonStClare said:
https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=Owen Smith&src=tyah&lang=en-gb - And Momentum attack adds are all over it.AndyJS said:Owen Smith launching his leadership bid.
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Fascinating insight @SouthamObserver - thank you - helping make sense of something that does not appear to.
Talking of 'Second Referendums'....
Nicola Sturgeon will consider holding a second referendum on Scottish independence in 2017 if the Westminster government begins moves to leave the EU without settling the UK-wide approach promised by Theresa May.
Asked on the BBC’s Sunday Politics Scotland programme about her position should article 50 be triggered in December – as proposed by the newly appointed Brexit minister, David Davis – without the Scottish government being “on board”, Sturgeon said that was why she was making preparations for a second independence referendum.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/17/nicola-sturgeon-would-consider-2017-scottish-independence-referendum-brexit
Quite a lot of wiggle room in 'will consider'.......0 -
He has a nasal sounding voice. He has zero charisma. He has little political experience. He's a lightweight.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
Seems quite a reasonable pitch. Actually a decent public speaker, which is a novelty in the modern Labour Party.AndyJS said:Owen Smith launching his leadership bid.
The PLP plotters will have do a lot better if they want to defeat Corbyn.0 -
Incredible idea to pitch... The Blairites are looking to rerun an election they lost fair and square if they win the rerun of an election they lost fair and squareRazedabode said:
Not sure a second referendum is a winner at all...will just cause further huge divisions and looks as though Labour ignoring some of its traditional heartlands who voted leave in such large numbers.TwistedFireStopper said:
Says he'll promise a second referendum on Brexit if he becomes Labour leader. I guess he's hoping May calls a GE before Article 50 is triggered.SimonStClare said:
https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=news&q=Owen Smith&src=tyah&lang=en-gb - And Momentum attack adds are all over it.AndyJS said:Owen Smith launching his leadership bid.
Maybe they are closer to Socialism than they think0 -
Owen Smith's previous job as a lobbyist for Pfizer will be bought up at every opportunity by the Corbynites.0
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Reassuring if only to read about it http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/sas-snipers-trained-to-halt-nice-style-attack-d6kzkvfm70
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It's certainly two big no-noes in one candidate Big Pharma and Lobbying. There's rather a lot of awkward stuff in his background courtesy of teh interwebs.TwistedFireStopper said:Owen Smith's previous job as a lobbyist for Pfizer will be bought up at every opportunity by the Corbynites.
Can understand why there's a reluctance for better candidates to sit this one out - but who could they even be? I can't think of any bar the old saw names we see trotted out.0 -
Well that's nice, except the SAS can't be everywhere.PlatoSaid said:Reassuring if only to read about it http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/sas-snipers-trained-to-halt-nice-style-attack-d6kzkvfm7
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I know an ex RM sniper very well. They used to practice shooting at moving vehicles as a matter of course, and that was over 15 years ago. I doubt it'd be a new skill for the SAS, or any half decent military marksman, to be honest!PlatoSaid said:Reassuring if only to read about it http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/sas-snipers-trained-to-halt-nice-style-attack-d6kzkvfm7
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I'm comparing him to:vik said:
He has a nasal sounding voice. He has zero charisma. He has little political experience. He's a lightweight.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
Seems quite a reasonable pitch. Actually a decent public speaker, which is a novelty in the modern Labour Party.AndyJS said:Owen Smith launching his leadership bid.
The PLP plotters will have do a lot better if they want to defeat Corbyn.
a) Jez Corbyn who speaks entirely in platitudes
b) Angela Eagle with a pitch of 'I'm a northern WC woman'
The bar is pretty low.
There are better people in the PLP, in my opinion, but they are not willing to stand.0 -
Good afternoon, everyone.
Interesting insight, Mr. Wild.0 -
Thank you SO for a good article,
Just one thing, although Len McCluskey tells everybody that Unit is the biggest union and throws his wait about as if he is, the numbers in the annual reports to the Trade Union Certification Office, tell a slightly different story, in terms of paying members Unite has: 1,131,119 paying members with is over 100,000 less than Unison which has: 1,254,250 The switchover came about 3 or 4 years ago.
Unite keep clamming to be the biggest by including various types of non paying members, (retired member unemployed members ect) to give a top-line membership number of: 1,405,838 against Unisons 1,270,408. most unions do a bit of this (e.g. members on maternity leave), its just Unite is quite happy to extend the definition as far as necessary to be able to clam to be the biggest union in the UK.0 -
It helps to make sense of things. It has made no sense that unions want to keep someone who is clearly going to lose and keep Lab out for another decade. All down to one person's job.
Pathetic. Shows why Lab should have ditched the unions years ago.0 -
I suspect there are a few younger MPs who fancy the job in the future, provided somebody else steps up to do the Neil Kinnock bit for them meanwhile.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
I'm comparing him to:vik said:
He has a nasal sounding voice. He has zero charisma. He has little political experience. He's a lightweight.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
Seems quite a reasonable pitch. Actually a decent public speaker, which is a novelty in the modern Labour Party.AndyJS said:Owen Smith launching his leadership bid.
The PLP plotters will have do a lot better if they want to defeat Corbyn.
a) Jez Corbyn who speaks entirely in platitudes
b) Angela Eagle with a pitch of 'I'm a northern WC woman'
The bar is pretty low.
There are better people in the PLP, in my opinion, but they are not willing to stand.0 -
How fascinating - thanx for that nugget.BigRich said:Thank you SO for a good article,
Just one thing, although Len McCluskey tells everybody that Unit is the biggest union and throws his wait about as if he is, the numbers in the annual reports to the Trade Union Certification Office, tell a slightly different story, in terms of paying members Unite has: 1,131,119 paying members with is over 100,000 less than Unison which has: 1,254,250 The switchover came about 3 or 4 years ago.
Unite keep clamming to be the biggest by including various types of non paying members, (retired member unemployed members ect) to give a top-line membership number of: 1,405,838 against Unisons 1,270,408. most unions do a bit of this (e.g. members on maternity leave), its just Unite is quite happy to extend the definition as far as necessary to be able to clam to be the biggest union in the UK.0 -
I suggest Neil Kinnock!IanB2 said:
I suspect there are a few younger MPs who fancy the job in the future, provided somebody else steps up to do the Neil Kinnock bit for them meanwhile.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
I'm comparing him to:vik said:
He has a nasal sounding voice. He has zero charisma. He has little political experience. He's a lightweight.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
Seems quite a reasonable pitch. Actually a decent public speaker, which is a novelty in the modern Labour Party.AndyJS said:Owen Smith launching his leadership bid.
The PLP plotters will have do a lot better if they want to defeat Corbyn.
a) Jez Corbyn who speaks entirely in platitudes
b) Angela Eagle with a pitch of 'I'm a northern WC woman'
The bar is pretty low.
There are better people in the PLP, in my opinion, but they are not willing to stand.0 -
This seems to be where we are - assume the much touted Dan Jarvis and newer MPs like Keir Starmer, who might fancy a tilt at it in future, are waiting for this to play out.IanB2 said:
I suspect there are a few younger MPs who fancy the job in the future, provided somebody else steps up to do the Neil Kinnock bit for them meanwhile.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
I'm comparing him to:vik said:
He has a nasal sounding voice. He has zero charisma. He has little political experience. He's a lightweight.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
Seems quite a reasonable pitch. Actually a decent public speaker, which is a novelty in the modern Labour Party.AndyJS said:Owen Smith launching his leadership bid.
The PLP plotters will have do a lot better if they want to defeat Corbyn.
a) Jez Corbyn who speaks entirely in platitudes
b) Angela Eagle with a pitch of 'I'm a northern WC woman'
The bar is pretty low.
There are better people in the PLP, in my opinion, but they are not willing to stand.
I do have respect for Eagle and Smith for putting themselves in the firing line, giving the current toxic atmosphere from the more vociferous Corbynistas. Smith went very big on the dangers of a split - appealing to long standing members over entryists.0 -
Kinnock: The Movie would be a bit different now. "I was the first Kinnock to get on the European gravy train, but thanks to Labour I wasn't the last."rottenborough said:
I suggest Neil Kinnock!IanB2 said:
I suspect there are a few younger MPs who fancy the job in the future, provided somebody else steps up to do the Neil Kinnock bit for them meanwhile.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
I'm comparing him to:vik said:
He has a nasal sounding voice. He has zero charisma. He has little political experience. He's a lightweight.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
Seems quite a reasonable pitch. Actually a decent public speaker, which is a novelty in the modern Labour Party.AndyJS said:Owen Smith launching his leadership bid.
The PLP plotters will have do a lot better if they want to defeat Corbyn.
a) Jez Corbyn who speaks entirely in platitudes
b) Angela Eagle with a pitch of 'I'm a northern WC woman'
The bar is pretty low.
There are better people in the PLP, in my opinion, but they are not willing to stand.0 -
Well yes, of course we have trained people that can take out terrorists.PlatoSaid said:Reassuring if only to read about it http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/sas-snipers-trained-to-halt-nice-style-attack-d6kzkvfm7
But how do we know where the terrorist will strike?
That intelligence is of course why we've not had a serious terrorist attack in the UK for 11 years.0 -
Well it's appealing to someone...
Jeremy Corbyn MP
We celebrate what they founded, we remember their sacrifice and we learn from their struggle #Tolpuddlemartyrs https://t.co/HNXYShlh810 -
Judging by Nice an event with a crowd of thousands. Not too difficult if you have sufficient snipers.Sandpit said:
Well yes, of course we have trained people that can take out terrorists.PlatoSaid said:Reassuring if only to read about it http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/sas-snipers-trained-to-halt-nice-style-attack-d6kzkvfm7
But how do we know where the terrorist will strike?
Also we are decades ahead on stopping lorries going where lorries shouldnt be with bollards and the like due to PIRA developing a penchant for putting lorries full of fertiliser in city centres in the 90's.0 -
Oh no
BREAKING: Three Law enforcement officers shot near Baton Rouge Police Headquarters. #BatonRouge https://t.co/xLnwT7V9oH
Now reports of EIGHT0 -
Flicking thru the nonsense comments below this tweet from Seamus, I mean, Jezza, came across this:PlatoSaid said:Well it's appealing to someone...
Jeremy Corbyn MP
We celebrate what they founded, we remember their sacrifice and we learn from their struggle #Tolpuddlemartyrs https://t.co/HNXYShlh81
Lee @vialee78 13m13 minutes ago
@jeremycorbyn found my way of voting for you skipper. Join a union.
Can we get clarification on this, I thought NEC had ruled that people joining a union as an affiliate this summer will NOT be able to vote in leadership election?0 -
Yeah I was impressed. Bit of passion about him.AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
Seems quite a reasonable pitch. Actually a decent public speaker, which is a novelty in the modern Labour Party.AndyJS said:Owen Smith launching his leadership bid.
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Really the whole world seems to be just going mad at the moment.PlatoSaid said:Oh no
BREAKING: Three Law enforcement officers shot near Baton Rouge Police Headquarters. #BatonRouge https://t.co/xLnwT7V9oH
Now reports of EIGHT0 -
Oxford St tomorrow will be as crowded as Nice, was. So will dozens if not hundreds of other streets, let me know which one you will pick to have snipers on without decent intelligence?Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Judging by Nice an event with a crowd of thousands. Not too difficult if you have sufficient snipers.Sandpit said:
Well yes, of course we have trained people that can take out terrorists.PlatoSaid said:Reassuring if only to read about it http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/sas-snipers-trained-to-halt-nice-style-attack-d6kzkvfm7
But how do we know where the terrorist will strike?
Also we are decades ahead on stopping lorries going where lorries shouldnt be with bollards and the like due to PIRA developing a penchant for putting lorries full of fertiliser in city centres in the 90's.0 -
Every concert, every football match, every cathedral...Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Judging by Nice an event with a crowd of thousands. Not too difficult if you have sufficient snipers.Sandpit said:
Well yes, of course we have trained people that can take out terrorists.PlatoSaid said:Reassuring if only to read about it http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/sas-snipers-trained-to-halt-nice-style-attack-d6kzkvfm7
But how do we know where the terrorist will strike?
Also we are decades ahead on stopping lorries going where lorries shouldnt be with bollards and the like due to PIRA developing a penchant for putting lorries full of fertiliser in city centres in the 90's.
Yes, major city centres are well defended by bollards, but the Nice event was very different, an event on a closed thoroughfare not very well closed. There's hundreds of these every day, too many to send a team of military snipers to each one.0 -
It's just a typical Mail story. For really big events, I can admit that there might be a case for positioning snipers, but I'd bet that up and down the country, there are hundreds of events, especially during the summer, taking place. Plus there are hundreds more busy shopping areas, not to mention thousands of people every week at events such as football matches and concerts. It is just a piece of fluff journalism.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Judging by Nice an event with a crowd of thousands. Not do difficult if you have sufficient snipers.Sandpit said:
Well yes, of course we have trained people that can take out terrorists.PlatoSaid said:Reassuring if only to read about it http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/sas-snipers-trained-to-halt-nice-style-attack-d6kzkvfm7
But how do we know where the terrorist will strike?
Also we are decades ahead on stopping lorries going where lorries shouldnt be with bollards and the like due to PIRA developing a penchant for putting lorries full of fertiliser in city centres in the 90's.0 -
I think McCkuskey needs to start paying attention to the half of his members who do not vote Labour at Elections.
Perhaps Matron (May-Tron - sorry!) needs to dream up some ways to facilitate effective democracy in Trades Unions.0 -
Round here, it would be the agricultural shows, the carnivals, the catholic churches (packed with A8 folk), the hospitals.Sandpit said:
Every concert, every football match, every cathedral...Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Judging by Nice an event with a crowd of thousands. Not too difficult if you have sufficient snipers.Sandpit said:
Well yes, of course we have trained people that can take out terrorists.PlatoSaid said:Reassuring if only to read about it http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/sas-snipers-trained-to-halt-nice-style-attack-d6kzkvfm7
But how do we know where the terrorist will strike?
Also we are decades ahead on stopping lorries going where lorries shouldnt be with bollards and the like due to PIRA developing a penchant for putting lorries full of fertiliser in city centres in the 90's.
Yes, major city centres are well defended by bollards, but the Nice event was very different, an event on a closed thoroughfare not very well closed. There's hundreds of these every day, too many to send a team of military snipers to each one.
We have to be hardnosed though. Terrorism is not a leading cause of death, far from it. We just need to keep buggering on.0 -
Mr. Borough, the whole world?
That's an exaggeration. The problem is it requires only a tiny percentage of lunatics to ruin things for the vast majority of decent people.0 -
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Exactly.John_M said:
Round here, it would be the agricultural shows, the carnivals, the catholic churches (packed with A8 folk), the hospitals.Sandpit said:
Every concert, every football match, every cathedral...Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Judging by Nice an event with a crowd of thousands. Not too difficult if you have sufficient snipers.Sandpit said:
Well yes, of course we have trained people that can take out terrorists.PlatoSaid said:Reassuring if only to read about it http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/sas-snipers-trained-to-halt-nice-style-attack-d6kzkvfm7
But how do we know where the terrorist will strike?
Also we are decades ahead on stopping lorries going where lorries shouldnt be with bollards and the like due to PIRA developing a penchant for putting lorries full of fertiliser in city centres in the 90's.
Yes, major city centres are well defended by bollards, but the Nice event was very different, an event on a closed thoroughfare not very well closed. There's hundreds of these every day, too many to send a team of military snipers to each one.
We have to be hardnosed though. Terrorism is not a leading cause of death, far from it. We just need to keep buggering on.
Changing your daily routine is what the fuckers want, don't let them do it.0 -
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My daughter (8) and my wife had the following exchange yesterday:
Julia: Mum spanking children is illegal in the UK right?
Me: It's a barbaric practise and it ought to be but evidently its not.
Julia: Well maybe now that we're leaving the EU we can change that.
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Yeah, I feel the same way. It'll happen sometime, either an organised attack, or a successful lone wolf nutter. There is no way to stop it- not militarily, and probably not even by education or anti radicalisation programmes. All we can really hope for is that the security services continue to stop the showstopper big ones. I suspect there will be more and more low level atrocities- on street beheadings, vehicles used as weapons and such like. The likes of IS just want us to hate Muslims as a means to an end, I guess, and will do all they can the facilitate that hatred.John_M said:
Round here, it would be the agricultural shows, the carnivals, the catholic churches (packed with A8 folk), the hospitals.Sandpit said:
Every concert, every football match, every cathedral...Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Judging by Nice an event with a crowd of thousands. Not too difficult if you have sufficient snipers.Sandpit said:
Well yes, of course we have trained people that can take out terrorists.PlatoSaid said:Reassuring if only to read about it http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/sas-snipers-trained-to-halt-nice-style-attack-d6kzkvfm7
But how do we know where the terrorist will strike?
Also we are decades ahead on stopping lorries going where lorries shouldnt be with bollards and the like due to PIRA developing a penchant for putting lorries full of fertiliser in city centres in the 90's.
Yes, major city centres are well defended by bollards, but the Nice event was very different, an event on a closed thoroughfare not very well closed. There's hundreds of these every day, too many to send a team of military snipers to each one.
We have to be hardnosed though. Terrorism is not a leading cause of death, far from it. We just need to keep buggering on.0 -
Sounds like an ambush of police called to a fake robbery. Not good.PlatoSaid said:0 -
Even in Israel at the height of the intifada, you were 10 times more likely to die in a road accident than a terrorist incident.John_M said:
Round here, it would be the agricultural shows, the carnivals, the catholic churches (packed with A8 folk), the hospitals.Sandpit said:
Every concert, every football match, every cathedral...Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Judging by Nice an event with a crowd of thousands. Not too difficult if you have sufficient snipers.Sandpit said:
Well yes, of course we have trained people that can take out terrorists.PlatoSaid said:Reassuring if only to read about it http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/sas-snipers-trained-to-halt-nice-style-attack-d6kzkvfm7
But how do we know where the terrorist will strike?
Also we are decades ahead on stopping lorries going where lorries shouldnt be with bollards and the like due to PIRA developing a penchant for putting lorries full of fertiliser in city centres in the 90's.
Yes, major city centres are well defended by bollards, but the Nice event was very different, an event on a closed thoroughfare not very well closed. There's hundreds of these every day, too many to send a team of military snipers to each one.
We have to be hardnosed though. Terrorism is not a leading cause of death, far from it. We just need to keep buggering on.
Although, Israeli driving may have contributed to that statistic.0 -
Democracy in local govt and H of C elections would be a start; i.e, fair voting so that a party that gets 35% of votes gets 35% of the seats. Plus do much more to list the millions not on the electoral register. Having dealt with one's own weaknesses, then by all means focus on lack of union democracy.MattW said:I think McCkuskey needs to start paying attention to the half of his members who do not vote Labour at Elections.
Perhaps Matron (May-Tron - sorry!) needs to dream up some ways to facilitate effective democracy in Trades Unions.0 -
+1TwistedFireStopper said:
Yeah, I feel the same way. It'll happen sometime, either an organised attack, or a successful lone wolf nutter. There is no way to stop it- not militarily, and probably not even by education or anti radicalisation programmes. All we can really hope for is that the security services continue to stop the showstopper big ones. I suspect there will be more and more low level atrocities- on street beheadings, vehicles used as weapons and such like. The likes of IS just want us to hate Muslims as a means to an end, I guess, and will do all they can the facilitate that hatred.John_M said:
Round here, it would be the agricultural shows, the carnivals, the catholic churches (packed with A8 folk), the hospitals.Sandpit said:
Every concert, every football match, every cathedral...Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Judging by Nice an event with a crowd of thousands. Not too difficult if you have sufficient snipers.Sandpit said:
Well yes, of course we have trained people that can take out terrorists.PlatoSaid said:Reassuring if only to read about it http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/sas-snipers-trained-to-halt-nice-style-attack-d6kzkvfm7
But how do we know where the terrorist will strike?
Also we are decades ahead on stopping lorries going where lorries shouldnt be with bollards and the like due to PIRA developing a penchant for putting lorries full of fertiliser in city centres in the 90's.
Yes, major city centres are well defended by bollards, but the Nice event was very different, an event on a closed thoroughfare not very well closed. There's hundreds of these every day, too many to send a team of military snipers to each one.
We have to be hardnosed though. Terrorism is not a leading cause of death, far from it. We just need to keep buggering on.0 -
Remember how many people are shot dead by the police in 'merica.rottenborough said:
Really the whole world seems to be just going mad at the moment.PlatoSaid said:Oh no
BREAKING: Three Law enforcement officers shot near Baton Rouge Police Headquarters. #BatonRouge https://t.co/xLnwT7V9oH
Now reports of EIGHT0 -
Reports two police officers have died as a result of Baton Rouge incident0
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Jeez - lucky escape
Avi Mayer
ICYMI: Israeli security guards prevented a major Palestinian terror attack targeting the light rail in central Jerusalem this morning.
A Palestinian man was arrested just before boarding the light rail in downtown Jerusalem; he was found to be carrying a powerful bomb.0 -
I notice that the Nice Nutter was a taker of drugs along with just about all the other high profile stranger slayers of recent times.
I think Peter Hitchens is onto something here.0 -
That is a red herring. One thing being allegedly poor doesn't justify ignoring another thing.rural_voter said:
Democracy in local govt and H of C elections would be a start; i.e, fair voting so that a party that gets 35% of votes gets 35% of the seats. Plus do much more to list the millions not on the electoral register. Having dealt with one's own weaknesses, then by all means focus on lack of union democracy.MattW said:I think McCkuskey needs to start paying attention to the half of his members who do not vote Labour at Elections.
Perhaps Matron (May-Tron - sorry!) needs to dream up some ways to facilitate effective democracy in Trades Unions.
I think it is fine to focus on it anyway, in addition to the other, particularly given McCluskey's attempts to manipulate Labour, and that Unite markets itself as seeking to represent all the members.
It is, after all, a choice not to register to vote for elections, and it is not exactly difficult.0 -
Barbaric? Even if you disapprove that is a bit over the top.rcs1000 said:My daughter (8) and my wife had the following exchange yesterday:
Julia: Mum spanking children is illegal in the UK right?
Me: It's a barbaric practise and it ought to be but evidently its not.
Julia: Well maybe now that we're leaving the EU we can change that.
Nice was barbaric.0 -
Maybe SeanT should be taken into protective custody?Paul_Bedfordshire said:I notice that the Nice Nutter was a taker of drugs along with just about all the other high profile stranger slayers of recent times.
I think Peter Hitchens is onto something here.0 -
John Rentoul
Justine Greening. She's really not going to expand grammar schools https://t.co/QJO35ECCxI https://t.co/JoUBk2KPZB0 -
The US looks to heading towards trouble.0
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Actually, that was my wife speaking rather than me... I cut and paste. (My wife was very badly beaten as a child and has a very hard line view on this one.)Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Barbaric? Even if you disapprove that is a bit over the top.rcs1000 said:My daughter (8) and my wife had the following exchange yesterday:
Julia: Mum spanking children is illegal in the UK right?
Me: It's a barbaric practise and it ought to be but evidently its not.
Julia: Well maybe now that we're leaving the EU we can change that.
Nice was barbaric.0 -
Thank you.Sandpit said:@rcs1000 thanks for your many comments earlier today on trade deals, very informative.
What is so annoying is that there are so many things we should start on right now: membership of EFTA (not EEA) would seem to be the easiest thing we could do, and which would enable us to quickly piggyback on their existing arrangements.0 -
The worrying thing is that he appeared to have moved from ordinary slob to jihadi very quickly, without showing any of the usual signs.Paul_Bedfordshire said:I notice that the Nice Nutter was a taker of drugs along with just about all the other high profile stranger slayers of recent times.
I think Peter Hitchens is onto something here.
Very few people are natural born killers; it's usually a journey or process. Absent that, we have a serious intelligence gap.0 -
Yup. Black Lives Matter and the political pandering to them isn't helping either.TwistedFireStopper said:The US looks to heading towards trouble.
Gunman is still at large, ten shots fired0 -
When I worked as a teacher and as a lecturer, the legal protection was regarded as especially important. Teachers' unions did have some collective power (more over working conditions than over pay, really), not so much for lecturers. But it was the legal protection that was the single biggest incentive to join a union, especially in a world where everyone was one false allegation from not being able to work again and there was no guarantee that your employer would be on your side trying to protect you.TwistedFireStopper said:I think all of the unions are trying to keep themselves relevant. Most of my colleagues are only in our union for the legal support that might- just might-help us keep our jobs in a disciplinary scenario with management.
0 -
The cricket is utterly captivating.0
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Agree completely. Good to see a SoS for Trade appointed though, a positive role and let's hope he can get a few Air Miles in the coming months.rcs1000 said:
Thank you.Sandpit said:@rcs1000 thanks for your many comments earlier today on trade deals, very informative.
What is so annoying is that there are so many things we should start on right now: membership of EFTA (not EEA) would seem to be the easiest thing we could do, and which would enable us to quickly piggyback on their existing arrangements.0 -
The two arrested this morning in Nice were reported as the brother and his wife? They had a 4 year old child who was visibly distressed at seeing her father arrested and dragged away. One can understand the child's reaction to events they don't understand.
The point is until we figure out what goes on in the heads of adult people that have children yet perpetrate or assist the carrying out of these horrific acts on children just like their own, we will be nowhere near comprehending the act let alone finding a solution.
Nutter really doesn't cover the situation.0 -
Mr. M, the Nice lunatic apparently was mentally ill, which could explain the rapid progression.0
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Maybe we really should be worrying about SeanT.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. M, the Nice lunatic apparently was mentally ill, which could explain the rapid progression.
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Okay. Now trying to explain cricket to the Ukrainian in-laws.0
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http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-recruitment-idUKKCN0ZX0D9?il=0
Job listings increase post Brexit, say Reed.0 -
Agree 100%rcs1000 said:
Thank you.Sandpit said:@rcs1000 thanks for your many comments earlier today on trade deals, very informative.
What is so annoying is that there are so many things we should start on right now: membership of EFTA (not EEA) would seem to be the easiest thing we could do, and which would enable us to quickly piggyback on their existing arrangements.0 -
The Icelanders are keen for us to join. The pro-EU Norwegian government has been umming and ahhingBigRich said:
Agree 100%rcs1000 said:
Thank you.Sandpit said:@rcs1000 thanks for your many comments earlier today on trade deals, very informative.
What is so annoying is that there are so many things we should start on right now: membership of EFTA (not EEA) would seem to be the easiest thing we could do, and which would enable us to quickly piggyback on their existing arrangements.0 -
if that happens wages will have to go UP and no one forecast that!!!!chestnut said:http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-recruitment-idUKKCN0ZX0D9?il=0
Job listings increase post Brexit, say Reed.0 -
I knew you'd blame BLM.PlatoSaid said:
Yup. Black Lives Matter and the political pandering to them isn't helping either.TwistedFireStopper said:The US looks to heading towards trouble.
Gunman is still at large, ten shots fired0
This discussion has been closed.