politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Conservatives’ paradoxical leadership contest
Comments
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Leave promised several different things, you can't say freedom of movement has to be ditched, because that contradicts at least two other promises they made during the campaign.
Fundamentally no government will take a decision that would wreck the economy, the price for that is higher than the immigration debate.0 -
Uh? Where did I say that? They will move them out if it suits them, move them in if it suits them, etc.Monksfield said:
You really think that some of these multinational companies won't move jobs out if it suits their business objectives to do so. Blindingly naïve.Luckyguy1983 said:
Vodaphone thinking about leavingJohn_M said:
That's not the actual story. I know we've all got axes to grind, but we deserve better. Like a lot of things, it's conditional on the UK's final agreement with the EU.surbiton said:VISA moving hundreds of jobs to Europe.
VISA thinking about leaving
Morgan Stanley not leaving
Bloomberg not leaving
People 'freezing' big investment
In other words - companies considering their options when a country makes a big political and economic change.
Hardly fighting for places on the last boat to get away from broken racist Britain.
The narrative will come unstuck because no sensible company will actually be prepared to DO any of this stuff on the basis of this flimsy hand-flapping episode.0 -
I was hoping for Falconer.Pulpstar said:
Tony Blair is available I hear.Jobabob said:Who takes PMQs tomorrow? My guess is that Independent Labour (172) won't stage an official coup in the Commons because they'll want to see Official Labour (40) suffer. Constitutionally the SNP (56) have a case to declare they are the official Opposition unless and until the Labour rebels complete the revolt by appointing one of their own as leader in the Commons.
In any case, it's a rare Tuesday night indeed when one of four MPs (Robertson, Watson, Eagle, Corbyn) could theoretically be called to the dispatch box the following day.0 -
No, the campaign was for Control of immigration, where control means unlimited. Dan Hannan told me so.TheScreamingEagles said:
Unfortunately the country voted for Brexit with no free movement.SeanT said:
Yes. With some promises that we will revisit it in time, to see if it has worked, and the proviso that we have a sort of emergency brake. Not ideal, but there we are.TheScreamingEagles said:
With free movement?SeanT said:
SO WE STAY IN THE EFFING SINGLE MARKETYellowSubmarine said:City A.M.: Bye London hello Edinburgh? Finance won't stay if we exit the Single Market. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw9Miapys
I hope Boris is reading
Incidentally, the News at Ten reports Gordon Brown is tomorrow coming out for this solution: EEA with emergency brake.
A consensus is forming. i think it could command 60% of the voters. We're out, but in the single market. The EU will also want this.
The EU army thing, today, by itself, renders all dreams of continued EU membership utterly inoperable.
We must respect the will of the people, or Nigel Farage will become even more odious in his campaigning0 -
Nah. There's still the big red button to press; the one that Eagle's finger is hovering over.RodCrosby said:
I'm sure they're thinking tonight:-david_herdson said:
I wonder whether she's playing it more than one way? She may well know that she's not the best person to lead Labour but that Corbyn is so catastrophically bad that someone has to come forward. If she does it then it either prompts a really big beast to follow suit or else she can take over and do the best she can, in the belief that the worst she could do would be better than the likely best that Corbyn would.RodCrosby said:The longer this goes on the more I think it's a gigantic bluff (which has catastrophically failed), or Eagle is just a feint for someone else.
Eagle is useless. The Messiah will just smile and fix her with a beady eye, and she'll dissolve into tears again...
"Shit. We've pulled all the levers and pressed all the buttons. He's still there! What have we done? And what the hell do we do now?..."0 -
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it can't possibly be Eagle? Why go to all this trouble to oust Corbyn only to install someone as uninspiring as her, who will piss off lefties but won't win over many swing voters.
Clive Lewis has been mentioned on here a few times, he seems like a good choice, left wing, untainted by previous labour government, youthful, good on tv and charismatic, did a brief stint in the army, no prior Hamas baggage, and black - something in there for everyone.
I see no problem with labour selling left wing economic ideals. I think we've seen the uk is not as small c conservative as we thought, radical change is clearly an option. They just need a good salesman!. Stick to economics and be taken more seriously.
If nothing else, McDonnell is basically Compotent Corbyn, so is still a step up (but with a lot of baggage)0 -
Sunil's Great British Railway Journeys, 2016 (continuing from the 2015 campaign!):Pulpstar said:
Was it called www.politicalbetting.com ?HaroldO said:
I used to hang around on a rail nerds forum (don't judge me)
@Sunil_Prasannan ; @JosiasJessop
Routes Sunil has done for the very first time:
January:
Kidsgrove to Manchester Piccadilly
Basingstoke to Salisbury
Ashford to Eastbourne via Hastings
Manningtree to Harwich Town
February
Nottingham Station to Hucknall (NET tram)
Alderley Edge to Cheadle Hulme
Manchester Piccadilly to Ashton-under-Lyne (Metrolink tram)
Chester to Liverpool James Street
Liverpool Lime Street to James Street (clockwise)
Newhaven Harbour to Seaford
March
Ford to Bognor Regis
Polegate to Hampden Park (Eastbourne)
Petersfield to Portsmouth Harbour
Hilsea (Portsmouth) to Eastleigh
Crowhurst to Hastings
Belper to Matlock
Matlock to Rowsley South (Peak Rail)
April
Selling (Kent) to Dover Priory
Ely to Kings Lynn
Liverpool Central to Southport
Thorpe-le-Soken to Walton-on-the-Naze
May
Ely to Norwich
Dullingham (Cambs.) to Stowmarket
Stockport to Buxton
Barnham to Havant
Bedhampton to Cosham
Fareham to St Denys (Southampton)
Ryde Pier Head to Shanklin (Isle of Wight)
Bull Street to Grand Central/New Street (Midland Metro)
June
Ipswich to Lowestoft
Nottingham to Chesterfield
Nottingham Station to Toton Lane (NET tram)
David Lane to Phoenix Park (NET tram)
Nottingham Station to Clifton South (NET tram)
Peterborough to Lincoln via Spalding
Ramsgate to Dover
TO BE CONTINUED.....
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We were also told there would be an extra £350m per week to spend on the NHS and that we would remind part of the single market.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm fairly certain restricting immigration and free movement was mentioned occasionally.SeanT said:
This is just a lie. They voted LEAVE. That's all we know, all we can know, unless you want to make windows into men's souls.TheScreamingEagles said:
Unfortunately the country voted for Brexit with no free movement.SeanT said:
Yes. With some promises that we will revisit it in time, to see if it has worked, and the proviso that we have a sort of emergency brake. Not ideal, but there we are.TheScreamingEagles said:
With free movement?SeanT said:
SO WE STAY IN THE EFFING SINGLE MARKETYellowSubmarine said:City A.M.: Bye London hello Edinburgh? Finance won't stay if we exit the Single Market. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw9Miapys
I hope Boris is reading
Incidentally, the News at Ten reports Gordon Brown is tomorrow coming out for this solution: EEA with emergency brake.
A consensus is forming. i think it could command 60% of the voters. We're out, but in the single market. The EU will also want this.
The EU army thing, today, by itself, renders all dreams of continued EU membership utterly inoperable.
We must respect the will of the people, or Nigel Farage will become even more odious in his campaigning0 -
Soubry is the one Tory, other than Clarke, I have a lot of respect for. Sorry, Nick !GIN1138 said:
I thought Miss Soubry said on Question Time on Sunday that it's time to "move on" from the debate?TCPoliticalBetting said:My money would be on Nad if it came to a fight.
Nadine Dorries @NadineDorriesMP
I saw Anna Soubry leave the bar before she went outside. She was inebriated, not emotional. https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/747902049262571520 …0 -
There's no constitutional basis for anything like that. The PLP vote is an expression of internal parliamentary party opinion, with no legal standing. Corbyn remains the leader of the party unless someone is elected in his place. If anyone tries to screw around with that they'll just alienate the majority of members even more than they already have.Jobabob said:Who takes PMQs tomorrow? My guess is that Independent Labour (172) won't stage an official coup in the Commons because they'll want to see Official Labour (40) suffer. Constitutionally the SNP (56) have a case to declare they are the official Opposition unless and until the Labour rebels complete the revolt by appointing one of their own as leader in the Commons.
In any case, it's a rare Tuesday night indeed when one of four MPs (Robertson, Watson, Eagle, Corbyn) could theoretically be called to the dispatch box the following day.0 -
Woah, calm down there Tonto. I voted Leave. It's just a fact that people who might have let an incident go by last week, will be highlighting it this week. We are all, rightly, very sensitive about the issue - any plonkers who think the Brexit vote is carte blanche to insult or otherwise attack immigrants need to be squashed pronto.Luckyguy1983 said:
If the 'increase' in racist attacks is measurable, I'd like to see the measurement. I'd be surprised if you have verified year on year statistics, but go for it, I stand to be corrected.John_M said:
I'd rather have a balanced narrative. It's bound to have an impact, as businesses don't like uncertainty. Post exit, there may be legal, regulatory or even commercial reasons why a company might need to relocate some, or all, of their operations to EU states.Luckyguy1983 said:
Vodaphone thinking about leavingJohn_M said:
That's not the actual story. I know we've all got axes to grind, but we deserve better. Like a lot of things, it's conditional on the UK's final agreement with the EU.surbiton said:VISA moving hundreds of jobs to Europe.
VISA thinking about leaving
Morgan Stanley not leaving
Bloomberg not leaving
People 'freezing' big investment
In other words - companies considering their options when a country makes a big political and economic change.
Hardly fighting for places on the last boat to get away from broken racist Britain.
The narrative will come unstuck because no sensible company will actually be prepared to DO any of this stuff on the basis of this flimsy hand-flapping episode.
Brexit will have Brexit related unemployment. Markets will be volatile. Based on the IMF report, we're highly likely to have a shallow recession (-.8%) next year. And so on. There has been a measurable increase in unacceptable racist and intimidatory behaviour. People are still upset and worried. There's no point in being in denial over it.
PB has been very unpleasant for at least the last fortnight. I thought we were doing very well today. I'm just appealing for a bit more civility and a bit less one-eyed posting. Except if I'm doing it, when it's naturally ok
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As I've said before, British tolerance of immigrants is longstanding and is part of the reason that so many people like to come here. Given a population of 65 million we're bound to have a small proportion of giant cocks. We just need to keep on being decent and reassuring.0 -
Yes it was. But we can never know for sure why people voted the way they did. That immigration was at the heart of the campaign makes it probable for most it was a key element, but we know that for some it was not a consideration at all. So a deal with free movement is sellable to the country, particularly if Remainers get on board as a least worst option.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm fairly certain restricting immigration and free movement was mentioned occasionally.SeanT said:
This is just a lie. They voted LEAVE. That's all we know, all we can know, unless you want to make windows into men's souls.TheScreamingEagles said:
Unfortunately the country voted for Brexit with no free movement.SeanT said:
Yes. With some promises that we will revisit it in time, to see if it has worked, and the proviso that we have a sort of emergency brake. Not ideal, but there we are.TheScreamingEagles said:
With free movement?SeanT said:
SO WE STAY IN THE EFFING SINGLE MARKETYellowSubmarine said:City A.M.: Bye London hello Edinburgh? Finance won't stay if we exit the Single Market. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw9Miapys
I hope Boris is reading
Incidentally, the News at Ten reports Gordon Brown is tomorrow coming out for this solution: EEA with emergency brake.
A consensus is forming. i think it could command 60% of the voters. We're out, but in the single market. The EU will also want this.
The EU army thing, today, by itself, renders all dreams of continued EU membership utterly inoperable.
We must respect the will of the people, or Nigel Farage will become even more odious in his campaigning
As the only thing definitively known from a Leave vote was Leaving, anything under that bracket means the people don't need to be consulted again, and they can express displeasure at the ballot box at the next election if they don;t like how the government interprets it.
Could be some very angry people though.0 -
Britain has been doing well to be trusted with EU data because it has a huge electronic surveillance program and gives America access to data that it would be unconstitutional for them to get for themselves. Outside the EU it's very hard to see it continuing.Freggles said:
EU Data Protection Act means that only 'accredited safe havens' outside the EU can be trusted with sensitive personal information.TheKrakenAwakes said:
Interesting bit at the bottom of the piece regarding data held by Visa that can't be moved out of the EU - is that a statutory obligation?YellowSubmarine said:The Telegraph: Vodafone warns it may move its HQ out of the UK. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwgrqppys
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No, I suspect quite a lot of Labour members / supporters might feel that way. But the consequences of electing Corbyn again would be cataclysmic for Labour. Genuinely end-of-the-party bad.Danny565 said:
Which does not seem at all obvious to me.david_herdson said:
I wonder whether she's playing it more than one way? She may well know that she's not the best person to lead Labour but that Corbyn is so catastrophically bad that someone has to come forward. If she does it then it either prompts a really big beast to follow suit or else she can take over and do the best she can, in the belief that the worst she could do would be better than the likely best that Corbyn would.RodCrosby said:The longer this goes on the more I think it's a gigantic bluff (which has catastrophically failed), or Eagle is just a feint for someone else.
Eagle is useless. The Messiah will just smile and fix her with a beady eye, and she'll dissolve into tears again...0 -
That's completely right Sean. The idea that the country voted for an exact package is utter rubbish. There are several PB Leavers on here who voted for EEA+FOM, so TSE's post above is indeed palpable nonsense.SeanT said:
This is just a lie. They voted LEAVE. That's all we know, all we can know, unless you want to make windows into men's souls.TheScreamingEagles said:
Unfortunately the country voted for Brexit with no free movement.SeanT said:
Yes. With some promises that we will revisit it in time, to see if it has worked, and the proviso that we have a sort of emergency brake. Not ideal, but there we are.TheScreamingEagles said:
With free movement?SeanT said:
SO WE STAY IN THE EFFING SINGLE MARKETYellowSubmarine said:City A.M.: Bye London hello Edinburgh? Finance won't stay if we exit the Single Market. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw9Miapys
I hope Boris is reading
Incidentally, the News at Ten reports Gordon Brown is tomorrow coming out for this solution: EEA with emergency brake.
A consensus is forming. i think it could command 60% of the voters. We're out, but in the single market. The EU will also want this.
The EU army thing, today, by itself, renders all dreams of continued EU membership utterly inoperable.
We must respect the will of the people, or Nigel Farage will become even more odious in his campaigning0 -
I'm trying to respect the will of the people.SeanT said:
Sure. I bet millions voted on the grounds of immigration. I also bet millions (like me) voted because of sovereignty and freedom, and don't remotely mind Polish nurses and Romanian plumbers.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm fairly certain restricting immigration and free movement was mentioned occasionally.SeanT said:
This is just a lie. They voted LEAVE. That's all we know, all we can know, unless you want to make windows into men's souls.TheScreamingEagles said:
Unfortunately the country voted for Brexit with no free movement.SeanT said:
Yes. With some promises that we will revisit it in time, to see if it has worked, and the proviso that we have a sort of emergency brake. Not ideal, but there we are.TheScreamingEagles said:
With free movement?SeanT said:
SO WE STAY IN THE EFFING SINGLE MARKETYellowSubmarine said:City A.M.: Bye London hello Edinburgh? Finance won't stay if we exit the Single Market. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw9Miapys
I hope Boris is reading
Incidentally, the News at Ten reports Gordon Brown is tomorrow coming out for this solution: EEA with emergency brake.
A consensus is forming. i think it could command 60% of the voters. We're out, but in the single market. The EU will also want this.
The EU army thing, today, by itself, renders all dreams of continued EU membership utterly inoperable.
We must respect the will of the people, or Nigel Farage will become even more odious in his campaigning
All we have in common is that we voted LEAVE, and that's the only conclusion any democrat can draw. The people said LEAVE. So we LEAVE.
Why are you making this harder? You lost. Get over it. We're out. Now let's go for what is clearly the best option: Norway EEA. We all agree, we want Britain to thrive and survive, it's the best choice, and it honours democracy. So let's crack on.
You might have remembered Dave, George, and various companies warning about the economic shocks of Leaving.
You and your fellow Leavers chose to ignore them.0 -
This is only maybe at this point. I know someone high up there , we shall see what happens ...TheScreamingEagles said:
Might be moving.surbiton said:VISA moving hundreds of jobs to Europe.
You do the Remain cause no good with your hyping of job losses.0 -
I don't think Boris can deliver EEA&FOM without some serious flack from all sides.Jobabob said:
That's completely right Sean. The idea that the country voted for an exact package is utter rubbish. There are several PB Leavers on here who voted for EEA+FOM, so TSE's post above is indeed palpable nonsense.SeanT said:
This is just a lie. They voted LEAVE. That's all we know, all we can know, unless you want to make windows into men's souls.TheScreamingEagles said:
Unfortunately the country voted for Brexit with no free movement.SeanT said:
Yes. With some promises that we will revisit it in time, to see if it has worked, and the proviso that we have a sort of emergency brake. Not ideal, but there we are.TheScreamingEagles said:
With free movement?SeanT said:
SO WE STAY IN THE EFFING SINGLE MARKETYellowSubmarine said:City A.M.: Bye London hello Edinburgh? Finance won't stay if we exit the Single Market. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw9Miapys
I hope Boris is reading
Incidentally, the News at Ten reports Gordon Brown is tomorrow coming out for this solution: EEA with emergency brake.
A consensus is forming. i think it could command 60% of the voters. We're out, but in the single market. The EU will also want this.
The EU army thing, today, by itself, renders all dreams of continued EU membership utterly inoperable.
We must respect the will of the people, or Nigel Farage will become even more odious in his campaigning0 -
We can do this. We can prevaricate, fudge, hedge and mumble until the EU concedes.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
Maybe the political chaos helps us.
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I agree with Sean. We're done with the EU and all their mad plans but we'll stay in the EEA and have access to the single market. In return we'll have to accept free movement.
This won't be enough for Farage and UKIP but the Tories will get enough support to see it through the Commons and probably to win a general election.
Labour may suffer in the north at the hands of UKIP which is unfortunate but we'll get over it.0 -
It does feel that Britain got out of the political union just in the nick of time.SeanT said:Consider this: if REMAIN had won Cameron would now be trying to awkwardly explain the "EU army" was not an "EU army" despite it clearly being an "EU army" in the form of an "EU army".
The entire narrative would be "REMAIN lied to us"
We will end up in the single market, with a restricted free movement of people arrangement, but without political union and therefore remain a sovereign nation.
What is there not to like?
The sooner we Tories elect the next Prime Minister, the sooner he or she can spell it out, and the sooner everyone can just calm the fck down.0 -
He will have to for the good of the country.HaroldO said:
I don't think Boris can deliver EEA&FOM without some serious flack from all sides.Jobabob said:
That's completely right Sean. The idea that the country voted for an exact package is utter rubbish. There are several PB Leavers on here who voted for EEA+FOM, so TSE's post above is indeed palpable nonsense.SeanT said:
This is just a lie. They voted LEAVE. That's all we know, all we can know, unless you want to make windows into men's souls.TheScreamingEagles said:
Unfortunately the country voted for Brexit with no free movement.SeanT said:
Yes. With some promises that we will revisit it in time, to see if it has worked, and the proviso that we have a sort of emergency brake. Not ideal, but there we are.TheScreamingEagles said:
With free movement?SeanT said:
SO WE STAY IN THE EFFING SINGLE MARKETYellowSubmarine said:City A.M.: Bye London hello Edinburgh? Finance won't stay if we exit the Single Market. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw9Miapys
I hope Boris is reading
Incidentally, the News at Ten reports Gordon Brown is tomorrow coming out for this solution: EEA with emergency brake.
A consensus is forming. i think it could command 60% of the voters. We're out, but in the single market. The EU will also want this.
The EU army thing, today, by itself, renders all dreams of continued EU membership utterly inoperable.
We must respect the will of the people, or Nigel Farage will become even more odious in his campaigning0 -
Lithuanian president asked what would happen if Article 50 isn't invoked.
Answer: "Welcome back".0 -
Culturally ? I'm not so sure.GIN1138 said:I agree with Sean. We're done with the EU and all their mad plans but we'll stay in the EEA and have access to the single market, in return we'll have to accept free movement.
This won't be enough for Farage and UKIP but the Tories will get enough support to see it through the Commons and probably a general election.
Labour may suffer in the north at the hands of UKIP which is unfortunate but we'll get over it.0 -
Renegotiation is on.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
If you were the new PM taking over in these circumstances, would you just give up the massive leverage we have to get a new deal and instead press on with Article 50? It would be insane to give up a diplomatic hand like that.0 -
1700 new Corbyn supporters sign up in 24 hours...
http://labourlist.org/2016/06/momentum-claims-huge-spike-in-membership-after-corbyn-coup/0 -
Remember "Robot Wars"?SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
BREXITEERS, STAND BY...
3....
2....
1....
NEGOTIATE!0 -
Normally I have the highest respect for you TSE however, that's unworthy of you. Asserting people ignored the likely economic shocks? Really? The last hour has just seen the same dreary crap being trotted out. Stupid, ignorant, racist Leavers. It's got to stop.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm trying to respect the will of the people.SeanT said:
Sure. I bet millions voted on the grounds of immigration. I also bet millions (like me) voted because of sovereignty and freedom, and don't remotely mind Polish nurses and Romanian plumbers.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm fairly certain restricting immigration and free movement was mentioned occasionally.SeanT said:
This is just a lie. They voted LEAVE. That's all we know, all we can know, unless you want to make windows into men's souls.TheScreamingEagles said:
Unfortunately the country voted for Brexit with no free movement.SeanT said:
Yes. With some promises that we will revisit it in time, to see if it has worked, and the proviso that we have a sort of emergency brake. Not ideal, but there we are.TheScreamingEagles said:
With free movement?SeanT said:
SO WE STAY IN THE EFFING SINGLE MARKETYellowSubmarine said:City A.M.: Bye London hello Edinburgh? Finance won't stay if we exit the Single Market. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw9Miapys
I hope Boris is reading
Incidentally, the News at Ten reports Gordon Brown is tomorrow coming out for this solution: EEA with emergency brake.
A consensus is forming. i think it could command 60% of the voters. We're out, but in the single market. The EU will also want this.
The EU army thing, today, by itself, renders all dreams of continued EU membership utterly inoperable.
We must respect the will of the people, or Nigel Farage will become even more odious in his campaigning
All we have in common is that we voted LEAVE, and that's the only conclusion any democrat can draw. The people said LEAVE. So we LEAVE.
Why are you making this harder? You lost. Get over it. We're out. Now let's go for what is clearly the best option: Norway EEA. We all agree, we want Britain to thrive and survive, it's the best choice, and it honours democracy. So let's crack on.
You might have remembered Dave, George, and various companies warning about the economic shocks of Leaving.
You and your fellow Leavers chose to ignore them.0 -
Mad nad clearly can't stand her so that's a big plus in her favour to start with.surbiton said:
Soubry is the one Tory, other than Clarke, I have a lot of respect for. Sorry, Nick !GIN1138 said:
I thought Miss Soubry said on Question Time on Sunday that it's time to "move on" from the debate?TCPoliticalBetting said:My money would be on Nad if it came to a fight.
Nadine Dorries @NadineDorriesMP
I saw Anna Soubry leave the bar before she went outside. She was inebriated, not emotional. https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/747902049262571520 …0 -
Is that even possible? I presume they're trying to face down Corbyn, but if he doesn't backd own, if he does stand in a contest, and may well win, how can any of them continue as part of the same entity?NickPalmer said:
There's no constitutional basis for anything like that. The PLP vote is an expression of internal parliamentary party opinion, with no legal standing. Corbyn remains the leader of the party unless someone is elected in his place. If anyone tries to screw around with that they'll just alienate the majority of members even more than they already have.Jobabob said:Who takes PMQs tomorrow? My guess is that Independent Labour (172) won't stage an official coup in the Commons because they'll want to see Official Labour (40) suffer. Constitutionally the SNP (56) have a case to declare they are the official Opposition unless and until the Labour rebels complete the revolt by appointing one of their own as leader in the Commons.
In any case, it's a rare Tuesday night indeed when one of four MPs (Robertson, Watson, Eagle, Corbyn) could theoretically be called to the dispatch box the following day.
I know parties are broad churches and all that nonsense (quite frankly many of the problems both parties face would be avoided if they did not try to be such broach churches, that allowed people who clearly shouldn't be in the same party with each other to pretend they work toward a common ideological aim), but if the man wins, how do they keep voting for the policies that will be set by him and his followers? Some are fine with the prospectus in theory, but huge numbers have been downright insulting about not just his quality as leader but where he wants to take the party.
The Tory division seems mild by comparison I assume only because they have the draw of current power they don;t want to lose, and because the parliamentary split is more even.0 -
Of course.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
Imagine a Britain that swans off and does deals with the US, Canada, Japan etc.
It will highlight the extent of the EU's failure and encourage others to jump ship.
We only voted to leave last Friday. If we succeed , which we will, the EU is doomed.0 -
Isn't Cameron still in Brussels? If so isn't it the case that the LOTO also doesn't lead PMQ's.NickPalmer said:
There's no constitutional basis for anything like that. The PLP vote is an expression of internal parliamentary party opinion, with no legal standing. Corbyn remains the leader of the party unless someone is elected in his place. If anyone tries to screw around with that they'll just alienate the majority of members even more than they already have.Jobabob said:Who takes PMQs tomorrow? My guess is that Independent Labour (172) won't stage an official coup in the Commons because they'll want to see Official Labour (40) suffer. Constitutionally the SNP (56) have a case to declare they are the official Opposition unless and until the Labour rebels complete the revolt by appointing one of their own as leader in the Commons.
In any case, it's a rare Tuesday night indeed when one of four MPs (Robertson, Watson, Eagle, Corbyn) could theoretically be called to the dispatch box the following day.0 -
Mr. M., that was my point in the first paragraph. I don't think many people give a stuff where their medicos come from. Competence is obviously important, but not I think a significant issue, and communication can be, but actual race/ethnicity, nah.John_M said:
As long as their English comprehension is up to snuff, who gives a shit? I've only met one doctor who I couldn't understand, and who apparently couldn't understand me. That's not a bad record, considering the Welsh NHS is even more dependent on immigrants than the English.HurstLlama said:
Are there actually any more than a small percentage of sick people who give a stuff about where their physicians, surgeons, nurses come from? Aside from perhaps some language/communication issues (which alas do occur) how many patients have an issue?foxinsoxuk said:
The main sentiment that I got (and reported the anecdata here) was Indian doctors and filipino nurses saying "I had to jump though hoops and take exams to get work here, why shouldn't they?"
They are already finding that those folk who do not like Greeks or Portuguese like Asians even less.
As an aside, I note that at the Renal Unit at the RSCH all the medical staff that I have had dealings with have been white Brits. At the Brighton Eye Hospital aside from a couple of the nurses, none have been. The two establishments are on either side of the road, no more than 20 yards apart. Does the medical profession run some sort of apartheid in its specialities?
My second question to Dr. Sox was based on observation and quite genuine with no loading. In this neck of the woods all the renal people seem to be white Brits but none of the eye doctors (and precious few of their support staff are). I am not complaining just observing and wondering why.0 -
Link says:nunu said:
"Both Mr Johnson and Mrs May have ruled out a snap general election if they win the leadership contest amid concerns that it could jeopardise the Conservative's majority and distract from referendum negotiations"0 -
What would you have voted today?NickPalmer said:
There's no constitutional basis for anything like that. The PLP vote is an expression of internal parliamentary party opinion, with no legal standing. Corbyn remains the leader of the party unless someone is elected in his place. If anyone tries to screw around with that they'll just alienate the majority of members even more than they already have.Jobabob said:Who takes PMQs tomorrow? My guess is that Independent Labour (172) won't stage an official coup in the Commons because they'll want to see Official Labour (40) suffer. Constitutionally the SNP (56) have a case to declare they are the official Opposition unless and until the Labour rebels complete the revolt by appointing one of their own as leader in the Commons.
In any case, it's a rare Tuesday night indeed when one of four MPs (Robertson, Watson, Eagle, Corbyn) could theoretically be called to the dispatch box the following day.
What do you think Corbyn should do in the light of the result?0 -
50 letters would put a stop to that.williamglenn said:
Renegotiation is on.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
If you were the new PM taking over in these circumstances, would you just give up the massive leverage we have to get a new deal and instead press on with Article 50? It would be insane to give up a diplomatic hand like that.0 -
I still think no-one will be brave enough to invoke Article 50 for months if not a year or two. The EU will then throw us a few bones (after they have got over the anger stage) which we'll put to a Referendum and the status quo endures.GIN1138 said:I agree with Sean. We're done with the EU and all their mad plans but we'll stay in the EEA and have access to the single market. In return we'll have to accept free movement.
This won't be enough for Farage and UKIP but the Tories will get enough support to see it through the Commons and probably to win a general election.
Labour may suffer in the north at the hands of UKIP which is unfortunate but we'll get over it.
Probably not the most likely outcome but definitely not a complete outsider.0 -
Clive Lewis/ McDonnell woud be acceptable to me.Paristonda said:it can't possibly be Eagle? Why go to all this trouble to oust Corbyn only to install someone as uninspiring as her, who will piss off lefties but won't win over many swing voters.
Clive Lewis has been mentioned on here a few times, he seems like a good choice, left wing, untainted by previous labour government, youthful, good on tv and charismatic, did a brief stint in the army, no prior Hamas baggage, and black - something in there for everyone.
I see no problem with labour selling left wing economic ideals. I think we've seen the uk is not as small c conservative as we thought, radical change is clearly an option. They just need a good salesman!. Stick to economics and be taken more seriously.
If nothing else, McDonnell is basically Compotent Corbyn, so is still a step up (but with a lot of baggage)
I suspect not to SO or the majority of the PLP0 -
Expect them to backtrack on this once they are clear of the MPs.MikeL said:
Link says:nunu said:
"Both Mr Johnson and Mrs May have ruled out a snap general election if they win the leadership contest amid concerns that it could jeopardise the Conservative's majority and distract from referendum negotiations"0 -
This is the precisely the public Farage rationale which will discourage any concessions from the EU ; I expect that many on your side would prefer that anyway.chestnut said:
Of course.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
Imagine a Britain that swans off and does deals with the US, Canada, Japan etc.
It will highlight the extent of the EU's failure and encourage others to jump ship.
We only voted to leave last Friday. If we succeed , which we will, the EU is doomed.0 -
She is a ghastly woman with a history of intimidation both as an MP and when she worked in law if you believe parts of the Internet. The lady is the ultimate Cameron loyalist, just a female John Prescott style attack dog with no political convictions. It's sad that Nick lost out because he seems umpteen times more intelligent and dignified than Anna. Other than that she's fine though.surbiton said:
Soubry is the one Tory, other than Clarke, I have a lot of respect for. Sorry, Nick !GIN1138 said:
I thought Miss Soubry said on Question Time on Sunday that it's time to "move on" from the debate?TCPoliticalBetting said:My money would be on Nad if it came to a fight.
Nadine Dorries @NadineDorriesMP
I saw Anna Soubry leave the bar before she went outside. She was inebriated, not emotional. https://twitter.com/itvnews/status/747902049262571520 …
0 -
I honestly don't see how that would be good for the EU, and so us, in a rejoining scenario - they would be showing you can vote to leave, then get a whole bunch of things you want, and decide to stay - it would cause immense problems across the EU as plenty of places might decide to vote to leave, provoking great shocks, simply as a bargaining position.Gardenwalker said:
We can do this. We can prevaricate, fudge, hedge and mumble until the EU concedes.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
Maybe the political chaos helps us.
I don't believe them. Or rather, even if they would, the others as a whole would not.AndyJS said:Lithuanian president asked what would happen if Article 50 isn't invoked.
Answer: "Welcome back".0 -
There is absolutely no doubt Labour members will re-elect Corbyn, who will then lead the party to catastrophic defeat. He'll then be elected leader once again. And he will lead Labour to utter irrelevance. Not that the members will care. They like their comfort blanket. It's so cosy.david_herdson said:
No, I suspect quite a lot of Labour members / supporters might feel that way. But the consequences of electing Corbyn again would be cataclysmic for Labour. Genuinely end-of-the-party bad.Danny565 said:
Which does not seem at all obvious to me.david_herdson said:
I wonder whether she's playing it more than one way? She may well know that she's not the best person to lead Labour but that Corbyn is so catastrophically bad that someone has to come forward. If she does it then it either prompts a really big beast to follow suit or else she can take over and do the best she can, in the belief that the worst she could do would be better than the likely best that Corbyn would.RodCrosby said:The longer this goes on the more I think it's a gigantic bluff (which has catastrophically failed), or Eagle is just a feint for someone else.
Eagle is useless. The Messiah will just smile and fix her with a beady eye, and she'll dissolve into tears again...
0 -
Exactly, Sean. What we need is a Leave of a sort that 60+% of the population could.support. A compromise. A halfway house. This could be it. I suspect TSE, I'm sure, could support it (didn't he once claim not to be obsessed with Europe) once he concludes the sport of trying to win this particular argument.SeanT said:
Sure. I bet millions voted on the grounds of immigration. I also bet millions (like me) voted because of sovereignty and freedom, and don't remotely mind Polish nurses and Romanian plumbers.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm fairly certain restricting immigration and free movement was mentioned occasionally.SeanT said:
This is just a lie. They voted LEAVE. That's all we know, all we can know, unless you want to make windows into men's souls.TheScreamingEagles said:
Unfortunately the country voted for Brexit with no free movement.SeanT said:
Yes. With some promises that we will revisit it in time, to see if it has worked, and the proviso that we have a sort of emergency brake. Not ideal, but there we are.TheScreamingEagles said:
With free movement?SeanT said:
SO WE STAY IN THE EFFING SINGLE MARKETYellowSubmarine said:City A.M.: Bye London hello Edinburgh? Finance won't stay if we exit the Single Market. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw9Miapys
I hope Boris is reading
Incidentally, the News at Ten reports Gordon Brown is tomorrow coming out for this solution: EEA with emergency brake.
A consensus is forming. i think it could command 60% of the voters. We're out, but in the single market. The EU will also want this.
The EU army thing, today, by itself, renders all dreams of continued EU membership utterly inoperable.
We must respect the will of the people, or Nigel Farage will become even more odious in his campaigning
All we have in common is that we voted LEAVE, and that's the only conclusion any democrat can draw. The people said LEAVE. So we LEAVE.
Why are you making this harder? You lost. Get over it. We're out. Now let's go for what is clearly the best option: Norway EEA. We all agree, we want Britain to thrive and survive, it's the best choice, and it honours democracy. So let's crack on.
Never try to infer what a voter really meant by his vote. (Beyond the obvious of he considered option x the least worst option). It can't be done and just looks at best arrogant and at worst stupid.0 -
And they will flay him for it...would be funny to see though. From a morbid point of view.DanSmith said:
He will have to for the good of the country.HaroldO said:
I don't think Boris can deliver EEA&FOM without some serious flack from all sides.Jobabob said:
That's completely right Sean. The idea that the country voted for an exact package is utter rubbish. There are several PB Leavers on here who voted for EEA+FOM, so TSE's post above is indeed palpable nonsense.SeanT said:
This is just a lie. They voted LEAVE. That's all we know, all we can know, unless you want to make windows into men's souls.TheScreamingEagles said:
Unfortunately the country voted for Brexit with no free movement.SeanT said:
Yes. With some promises that we will revisit it in time, to see if it has worked, and the proviso that we have a sort of emergency brake. Not ideal, but there we are.TheScreamingEagles said:
With free movement?SeanT said:
SO WE STAY IN THE EFFING SINGLE MARKETYellowSubmarine said:City A.M.: Bye London hello Edinburgh? Finance won't stay if we exit the Single Market. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw9Miapys
I hope Boris is reading
Incidentally, the News at Ten reports Gordon Brown is tomorrow coming out for this solution: EEA with emergency brake.
A consensus is forming. i think it could command 60% of the voters. We're out, but in the single market. The EU will also want this.
The EU army thing, today, by itself, renders all dreams of continued EU membership utterly inoperable.
We must respect the will of the people, or Nigel Farage will become even more odious in his campaigning0 -
They are joining the wrong organisation.RodCrosby said:1700 new Corbyn supporters sign up in 24 hours...
http://labourlist.org/2016/06/momentum-claims-huge-spike-in-membership-after-corbyn-coup/0 -
Just as adding the suffix "-gate" to the end of every political scandal has become common, it seems that making up an "exit" word for every resignation/departure is gaining popularity.
"'Mexit' leaves Messi fans pleading for change of heart"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-36643270
(Messi's retirement from international football)0 -
I think he was meaning on the Labour side.Pulpstar said:
Tony Blair is available I hear.Jobabob said:Who takes PMQs tomorrow? My guess is that Independent Labour (172) won't stage an official coup in the Commons because they'll want to see Official Labour (40) suffer. Constitutionally the SNP (56) have a case to declare they are the official Opposition unless and until the Labour rebels complete the revolt by appointing one of their own as leader in the Commons.
In any case, it's a rare Tuesday night indeed when one of four MPs (Robertson, Watson, Eagle, Corbyn) could theoretically be called to the dispatch box the following day.0 -
It's very, very, very unlikely that any politician will risk another EU referendum this side of 2100...murali_s said:
I still think no-one will be brave enough to invoke Article 50 for months if not a year or two. The EU will then throw us a few bones (after they have got over the anger stage) which we'll put to a Referendum and the status quo endures.GIN1138 said:I agree with Sean. We're done with the EU and all their mad plans but we'll stay in the EEA and have access to the single market. In return we'll have to accept free movement.
This won't be enough for Farage and UKIP but the Tories will get enough support to see it through the Commons and probably to win a general election.
Labour may suffer in the north at the hands of UKIP which is unfortunate but we'll get over it.
Probably not the most likely outcome but definitely not a complete outsider.0 -
Lithuania with a population of 3 million? Less important than Scotland? Well, why didn't they say so before, let's hop into our time machine and get back to June 23rd.kle4 said:
I honestly don't see how that would be good for the EU, and so us, in a rejoining scenario - they would be showing you can vote to leave, then get a whole bunch of things you want, and decide to stay - it would cause immense problems across the EU as plenty of places might decide to vote to leave, provoking great shocks, simply as a bargaining position.Gardenwalker said:
We can do this. We can prevaricate, fudge, hedge and mumble until the EU concedes.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
Maybe the political chaos helps us.
I don't believe them. Or rather, even if they would, the others as a whole would not.AndyJS said:Lithuanian president asked what would happen if Article 50 isn't invoked.
Answer: "Welcome back".0 -
Everyone wants us to stay. Except possibly the French, the Belgians, and Junker.AndyJS said:
Lithuania wants us to stay too.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
And 48% of us want to stay. And the re
Very simply, the costs of conceding to us outweigh the costs of our going.kle4 said:
I honestly don't see how that would be good for the EU, and so us, in a rejoining scenario - they would be showing you can vote to leave, then get a whole bunch of things you want, and decide to stay - it would cause immense problems across the EU as plenty of places might decide to vote to leave, provoking great shocks, simply as a bargaining position.Gardenwalker said:
We can do this. We can prevaricate, fudge, hedge and mumble until the EU concedes.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
Maybe the political chaos helps us.
I don't believe them. Or rather, even if they would, the others as a whole would not.AndyJS said:Lithuanian president asked what would happen if Article 50 isn't invoked.
Answer: "Welcome back".
And for us, the costs of our going, outweigh the negatives of our staying.0 -
Heseltine on Newsnight. Calls for second referendum or general election.0
-
There are various links over the last couple of days linking Australia, new Zealand, Canada,South Korea, EFTA, India, Brazil that suggest it will happen.RealBritain said:
This is the precisely the public Farage rationale which will discourage any concessions from the EU ; I expect that many on your side would prefer that anyway.chestnut said:
Of course.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
Imagine a Britain that swans off and does deals with the US, Canada, Japan etc.
It will highlight the extent of the EU's failure and encourage others to jump ship.
We only voted to leave last Friday. If we succeed , which we will, the EU is doomed.0 -
@georgeeaton: Labour membership for George Galloway is being discussed, source tells me.0
-
This.MP_SE said:
50 letters would put a stop to that.williamglenn said:
Renegotiation is on.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
If you were the new PM taking over in these circumstances, would you just give up the massive leverage we have to get a new deal and instead press on with Article 50? It would be insane to give up a diplomatic hand like that.
Let's say for the moment for the sake of argument it's already clear Leaving is a hopeless option and cannot be made to work well - I'd say it was far too early to make that call, but let's accept the premise - and there's this opportunity to renegotiate. The problem is it is too soon for both sides. The mood is too raw for the hardcore of Leavers for whom its all they care about, and the millions who have been delighted by the outcome, and a moderately hostile EU getting all defensive. This government could not survive backing down on that, or being seen to back down on that, and given it is too soon for any problems to be felt nationwide, it would be too provocative for the public who as of yet would not be ready to be re-convinced, that enough has changed to renegotiate. This government would fall, and would a 'negotiate' government be elected in its place?0 -
That would be an absolute disaster for Labour.Scott_P said:@georgeeaton: Labour membership for George Galloway is being discussed, source tells me.
0 -
True but they did it in such a way it sounded like crying wolf for the 20th time.... That and the fact there was not 1 positive reason given for staying in...TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm trying to respect the will of the people.SeanT said:
Sure. I bet millions voted on the grounds of immigration. I also bet millions (like me) voted because of sovereignty and freedom, and don't remotely mind Polish nurses and Romanian plumbers.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm fairly certain restricting immigration and free movement was mentioned occasionally.SeanT said:
This is just a lie. They voted LEAVE. That's all we know, all we can know, unless you want to make windows into men's souls.TheScreamingEagles said:
Unfortunately the country voted for Brexit with no free movement.SeanT said:
Yes. With some promises that we will revisit it in time, to see if it has worked, and the proviso that we have a sort of emergency brake. Not ideal, but there we are.TheScreamingEagles said:
With free movement?SeanT said:
SO WE STAY IN THE EFFING SINGLE MARKETYellowSubmarine said:City A.M.: Bye London hello Edinburgh? Finance won't stay if we exit the Single Market. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw9Miapys
I hope Boris is reading
Incidentally, the News at Ten reports Gordon Brown is tomorrow coming out for this solution: EEA with emergency brake.
A consensus is forming. i think it could command 60% of the voters. We're out, but in the single market. The EU will also want this.
The EU army thing, today, by itself, renders all dreams of continued EU membership utterly inoperable.
We must respect the will of the people, or Nigel Farage will become even more odious in his campaigning
All we have in common is that we voted LEAVE, and that's the only conclusion any democrat can draw. The people said LEAVE. So we LEAVE.
Why are you making this harder? You lost. Get over it. We're out. Now let's go for what is clearly the best option: Norway EEA. We all agree, we want Britain to thrive and survive, it's the best choice, and it honours democracy. So let's crack on.
You might have remembered Dave, George, and various companies warning about the economic shocks of Leaving.
You and your fellow Leavers chose to ignore them.0 -
Nice to see Labour getting its priorities straight. /facepalmScott_P said:@georgeeaton: Labour membership for George Galloway is being discussed, source tells me.
0 -
Somewhere between 3% and 5% of the Lithuanian population have moved to the UK. No wonder he's keen.0
-
This is getting beyond a farce.Scott_P said:@georgeeaton: Labour membership for George Galloway is being discussed, source tells me.
0 -
Loving the banana-themed reference.Pulpstar said:To be honest most of my theoretical profit in the Labour leadership market comes from this one weird trick:
Lay: David Miliband 9.71 £98.72 £860.250 -
Could someone clarify just where Falconer stands on the Labour business. Has he any intention of resigning?0
-
Seema Malhotra says string of resignations after Benn's sacking wasn't co-ordinated. Surely doesn't expect anyone to believe it?
FFS does anyone think that is not an outright lie.
Think PLP are just trying to piss members off now0 -
That's why we need to kick the can down the road. Announce a process to figure out what the answer is and we'll decide later. Meanwhile commit to the single market to reassure the FTSE. We're all to crazed to work out the answer right now.kle4 said:
This.MP_SE said:
50 letters would put a stop to that.williamglenn said:
Renegotiation is on.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
If you were the new PM taking over in these circumstances, would you just give up the massive leverage we have to get a new deal and instead press on with Article 50? It would be insane to give up a diplomatic hand like that.
Let's say for the moment for the sake of argument it's already clear Leaving is a hopeless option and cannot be made to work well - I'd say it was far too early to make that call, but let's accept the premise - and there's this opportunity to renegotiate. The problem is it is too soon for both sides. The mood is too raw for the hardcore of Leavers for whom its all they care about, and the millions who have been delighted by the outcome, and a moderately hostile EU getting all defensive. This government could not survive backing down on that, or being seen to back down on that, and given it is too soon for any problems to be felt nationwide, it would be too provocative for the public who as of yet would not be ready to be re-convinced, that enough has changed to renegotiate. This government would fall, and would a 'negotiate' government be elected in its place?0 -
What's the next level beyond calling in the Death Star to deal with an annoying fly....RealBritain said:
That would be an absolute disaster for Labour.Scott_P said:@georgeeaton: Labour membership for George Galloway is being discussed, source tells me.
0 -
Even factoring in the costs of giving succor to other nations who seek their own pound of flesh from the EU?Gardenwalker said:
Very simply, the costs of conceding to us outweigh the costs of our going.
Don't get me wrong, if we'd had a better deal from the start I'd have held my nose and voted Remain, 'freedom' is not worth any price (but remaining did carry its own costs) so if a new one is on the table I'm not averse to considering it afresh, but I would be very very surprised to see them offer us one, or our government able to pursue it.0 -
2 others if you include Scotland, and it takes unanimity to change it.peter_from_putney said:
I doubt that very much - it's the second language in 23 out of 27 states afaiaa and of course the first language in 1 other.John_M said:
Well, they might very well do so Anne. What would they replace it with? English is the global lingua franca. If that's not the very definition of irony, what is?AnneJGP said:
It occurs to me that, once the UK leaves, the EU can drop English as a standard language.SeanT said:Those EU Army proposals, which we were told were rubbish
http://eeas.europa.eu/statements-eeas/2016/160628_02_en.htm-1 -
Calling in a fly to deal with the Death Star.eek said:
What's the next level beyond calling in the Death Star to deal with an annoying fly....RealBritain said:
That would be an absolute disaster for Labour.Scott_P said:@georgeeaton: Labour membership for George Galloway is being discussed, source tells me.
0 -
Truly the most invidious outcome of the result so far (though did Grexit come first? Well, Brexit probably popularised it)Disraeli said:Just as adding the suffix "-gate" to the end of every political scandal has become common, it seems that making up an "exit" word for every resignation/departure is gaining popularity.
"'Mexit' leaves Messi fans pleading for change of heart"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-36643270
(Messi's retirement from international football)0 -
Certain specialities are attractive to different people. Most of the difference is generational, Renal medicine is not expanding, so the specialists are rather older. Ophthalmology has expanded rapidly over the last decade, so has younger and therefore ethnic minority staff.HurstLlama said:
Mr. M., that was my point in the first paragraph. I don't think many people give a stuff where their medicos come from. Competence is obviously important, but not I think a significant issue, and communication can be, but actual race/ethnicity, nah.John_M said:
As long as their English comprehension is up to snuff, who gives a shit? I've only met one doctor who I couldn't understand, and who apparently couldn't understand me. That's not a bad record, considering the Welsh NHS is even more dependent on immigrants than the English.HurstLlama said:
Are there actually any more than a small percentage of sick people who give a stuff about where their physicians, surgeons, nurses come from? Aside from perhaps some language/communication issues (which alas do occur) how many patients have an issue?foxinsoxuk said:
The main sentiment that I got (and reported the anecdata here) was Indian doctors and filipino nurses saying "I had to jump though hoops and take exams to get work here, why shouldn't they?"
They are already finding that those folk who do not like Greeks or Portuguese like Asians even less.
As an aside, I note that at the Renal Unit at the RSCH all the medical staff that I have had dealings with have been white Brits. At the Brighton Eye Hospital aside from a couple of the nurses, none have been. The two establishments are on either side of the road, no more than 20 yards apart. Does the medical profession run some sort of apartheid in its specialities?
My second question to Dr. Sox was based on observation and quite genuine with no loading. In this neck of the woods all the renal people seem to be white Brits but none of the eye doctors (and precious few of their support staff are). I am not complaining just observing and wondering why.
Most people are not bothered where their doctor or nurse comes from as they have more pressing concerns. Those people do have families, and go to the streets and shops, and it is in that non professional context that bigotry appears.0 -
t'Labour party is going out in spectacular fashion...eek said:
What's the next level beyond calling in the Death Star to deal with an annoying fly....RealBritain said:
That would be an absolute disaster for Labour.Scott_P said:@georgeeaton: Labour membership for George Galloway is being discussed, source tells me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgLgpcKK7hc0 -
English is the best language in the world!edmundintokyo said:
2 others if you include Scotland, and it takes unanimity to change it.peter_from_putney said:
I doubt that very much - it's the second language in 23 out of 27 states afaiaa and of course the first language in 1 other.John_M said:
Well, they might very well do so Anne. What would they replace it with? English is the global lingua franca. If that's not the very definition of irony, what is?AnneJGP said:
It occurs to me that, once the UK leaves, the EU can drop English as a standard language.SeanT said:Those EU Army proposals, which we were told were rubbish
http://eeas.europa.eu/statements-eeas/2016/160628_02_en.htm
Consider: at this year's Eurovision Final, all but one song were sung wholly or partially in English!0 -
0
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Oh of course we would be simply laying another landmine for the future. But that's the point. Eventually it's going to blow, but let's not be the ones to set it off.kle4 said:
Even factoring in the costs of giving succor to other nations who seek their own pound of flesh from the EU?Gardenwalker said:
Very simply, the costs of conceding to us outweigh the costs of our going.
Don't get me wrong, if we'd had a better deal from the start I'd have held my nose and voted Remain, 'freedom' is not worth any price (but remaining did carry its own costs) so if a new one is on the table I'm not averse to considering it afresh, but I would be very very surprised to see them offer us one, or our government able to pursue it.0 -
Sun backing Boris
Will they lose this time?0 -
Oh God. David Davis is on daily politics tomorrow for pmqs... he's going to stand isn't he...0
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Nick would prefer a new Tory government to a new Labour leader. It's as simple as that. But he is in the majority among Labour members and that's all that matters. Labour now has no future as a potential party of government. The members have abandoned the voters. They deserve all that's coming. Sadly, the voters don't. But they're getting it anyway.Jonathan said:
What would you have voted today?NickPalmer said:
There's no constitutional basis for anything like that. The PLP vote is an expression of internal parliamentary party opinion, with no legal standing. Corbyn remains the leader of the party unless someone is elected in his place. If anyone tries to screw around with that they'll just alienate the majority of members even more than they already have.Jobabob said:Who takes PMQs tomorrow? My guess is that Independent Labour (172) won't stage an official coup in the Commons because they'll want to see Official Labour (40) suffer. Constitutionally the SNP (56) have a case to declare they are the official Opposition unless and until the Labour rebels complete the revolt by appointing one of their own as leader in the Commons.
In any case, it's a rare Tuesday night indeed when one of four MPs (Robertson, Watson, Eagle, Corbyn) could theoretically be called to the dispatch box the following day.
What do you think Corbyn should do in the light of the result?
0 -
South-West Norfolk MP Elizabeth Truss, tipped as a possible Conservative leadership contender, has come out in support of Boris Johnson.
http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/politics/environment_secretary_elizabeth_truss_backs_boris_johnson_to_be_the_next_prime_minister_1_45959940 -
In my experience overseas Drs are more willing to work in emergency medicine than British onesfoxinsoxuk said:
Certain specialities are attractive to different people. Most of the difference is generational, Renal medicine is not expanding, so the specialists are rather older. Ophthalmology has expanded rapidly over the last decade, so has younger and therefore ethnic minority staff.HurstLlama said:
Mr. M., that was my point in the first paragraph. I don't think many people give a stuff where their medicos come from. Competence is obviously important, but not I think a significant issue, and communication can be, but actual race/ethnicity, nah.John_M said:
As long as their English comprehension is up to snuff, who gives a shit? I've only met one doctor who I couldn't understand, and who apparently couldn't understand me. That's not a bad record, considering the Welsh NHS is even more dependent on immigrants than the English.HurstLlama said:
Are there actually any more than a small percentage of sick people who give a stuff about where their physicians, surgeons, nurses come from? Aside from perhaps some language/communication issues (which alas do occur) how many patients have an issue?foxinsoxuk said:
The main sentiment that I got (and reported the anecdata here) was Indian doctors and filipino nurses saying "I had to jump though hoops and take exams to get work here, why shouldn't they?"
They are already finding that those folk who do not like Greeks or Portuguese like Asians even less.
As an aside, I note that at the Renal Unit at the RSCH all the medical staff that I have had dealings with have been white Brits. At the Brighton Eye Hospital aside from a couple of the nurses, none have been. The two establishments are on either side of the road, no more than 20 yards apart. Does the medical profession run some sort of apartheid in its specialities?
My second question to Dr. Sox was based on observation and quite genuine with no loading. In this neck of the woods all the renal people seem to be white Brits but none of the eye doctors (and precious few of their support staff are). I am not complaining just observing and wondering why.0 -
"Ejaculate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances!"Alistair said:
Calling in a fly to deal with the Death Star.eek said:
What's the next level beyond calling in the Death Star to deal with an annoying fly....RealBritain said:
That would be an absolute disaster for Labour.Scott_P said:@georgeeaton: Labour membership for George Galloway is being discussed, source tells me.
- Peter Cushing in "Star Wars", 19770 -
Emily Maitlis fluent in french in interview with Mme le Pen. Good to see a British interviewer engaging in a foreign language!0
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We should copyright Brexitgate. I mean, there's bound to be one sooner or later, right? It rolls off the tongue lovely as well.kle4 said:
Truly the most invidious outcome of the result so far (though did Grexit come first? Well, Brexit probably popularised it)Disraeli said:Just as adding the suffix "-gate" to the end of every political scandal has become common, it seems that making up an "exit" word for every resignation/departure is gaining popularity.
"'Mexit' leaves Messi fans pleading for change of heart"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-36643270
(Messi's retirement from international football)0 -
I did wonder during the campaign if this was one reason why Cameron went so far out on a limb for Remain: so that if we lost, no-one could question his commitment to winning the vote.kle4 said:
I honestly don't see how that would be good for the EU, and so us, in a rejoining scenario - they would be showing you can vote to leave, then get a whole bunch of things you want, and decide to stay - it would cause immense problems across the EU as plenty of places might decide to vote to leave, provoking great shocks, simply as a bargaining position.not.Gardenwalker said:
We can do this. We can prevaricate, fudge, hedge and mumble until the EU concedes.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
Maybe the political chaos helps us.0 -
Hard to know where the narrative will end up, it's been less than a week, but there's been some encouraging noises at least.SeanT said:The narrative has turned. Suddenly it's Brexit might benefit the Brits, let's keep them in....
Fascinating
Though unfortunately for those hoping for a reprieve from brexit, the more likely it looks we could be offered a new, better deal than before, the more it is likely that's because the EU feels us leaving would not be worth the damage to them, that is it would hurt them more than us (or so it would be perceived) and so the more ok we'll perceive the brexit situation to be, and the nervous waverers will be even less likely to waver.0 -
Agree with this as the way forward. Most Remainers would support it, giving such a move a formidable bloc vote.SeanT said:
Sure. I bet millions voted on the grounds of immigration. I also bet millions (like me) voted because of sovereignty and freedom, and don't remotely mind Polish nurses and Romanian plumbers.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm fairly certain restricting immigration and free movement was mentioned occasionally.SeanT said:
This is just a lie. They voted LEAVE. That's all we know, all we can know, unless you want to make windows into men's souls.TheScreamingEagles said:
Unfortunately the country voted for Brexit with no free movement.SeanT said:
Yes. With some promises that we will revisit it in time, to see if it has worked, and the proviso that we have a sort of emergency brake. Not ideal, but there we are.TheScreamingEagles said:
With free movement?SeanT said:
SO WE STAY IN THE EFFING SINGLE MARKETYellowSubmarine said:City A.M.: Bye London hello Edinburgh? Finance won't stay if we exit the Single Market. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw9Miapys
I hope Boris is reading
Incidentally, the News at Ten reports Gordon Brown is tomorrow coming out for this solution: EEA with emergency brake.
A consensus is forming. i think it could command 60% of the voters. We're out, but in the single market. The EU will also want this.
The EU army thing, today, by itself, renders all dreams of continued EU membership utterly inoperable.
We must respect the will of the people, or Nigel Farage will become even more odious in his campaigning
All we have in common is that we voted LEAVE, and that's the only conclusion any democrat can draw. The people said LEAVE. So we LEAVE.
Why are you making this harder? You lost. Get over it. We're out. Now let's go for what is clearly the best option: Norway EEA. We all agree, we want Britain to thrive and survive, it's the best choice, and it honours democracy. So let's crack on.
0 -
And fail, again.Scrapheap_as_was said:Oh God. David Davis is on daily politics tomorrow for pmqs... he's going to stand isn't he...
0 -
If we can hold of a declaration for several months, a great many options are more possible. But it won't be easy to hold out that long, as there are downsides too.Gardenwalker said:
That's why we need to kick the can down the road. Announce a process to figure out what the answer is and we'll decide later. Meanwhile commit to the single market to reassure the FTSE. We're all to crazed to work out the answer right now.kle4 said:
This.MP_SE said:
50 letters would put a stop to that.williamglenn said:
Renegotiation is on.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
If you were the new PM taking over in these circumstances, would you just give up the massive leverage we have to get a new deal and instead press on with Article 50? It would be insane to give up a diplomatic hand like that.
Let's say for the moment for the sake of argument it's already clear Leaving is a hopeless option and cannot be made to work well - I'd say it was far too early to make that call, but let's accept the premise - and there's this opportunity to renegotiate. The problem is it is too soon for both sides. The mood is too raw for the hardcore of Leavers for whom its all they care about, and the millions who have been delighted by the outcome, and a moderately hostile EU getting all defensive. This government could not survive backing down on that, or being seen to back down on that, and given it is too soon for any problems to be felt nationwide, it would be too provocative for the public who as of yet would not be ready to be re-convinced, that enough has changed to renegotiate. This government would fall, and would a 'negotiate' government be elected in its place?0 -
'However, Mr Corbyn was nonplussed by the enormity of the threat to his leadership, with one witness saying “the reaction was absolutely nil”.
The source added: “He [Mr Corbyn] really has got the hide of a rhino. You’ve got to admire him in a way.”'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-resignations-reshuffle-mutiny-7108216.html0 -
Thats because a UK exit is going to be damaging to them.kle4 said:
Hard to know where the narrative will end up, it's been less than a week, but there's been some encouraging noises at least.SeanT said:The narrative has turned. Suddenly it's Brexit might benefit the Brits, let's keep them in....
Fascinating
Though unfortunately for those hoping for a reprieve from brexit, the more likely it looks we could be offered a new, better deal than before, the more it is likely that's because the EU feels us leaving would not be worth the damage to them, that is it would hurt them more than us (or so it would be perceived) and so the more ok we'll perceive the brexit situation to be, and the nervous waverers will be even less likely to waver.0 -
I really think we are too divided as a nation to agree on a solution. Town against country; england against scotland; young against old; and of course corbyn against the entire plp. If we make a call early, we risk alienating and enraging a massive swathe of the population.kle4 said:
If we can hold of a declaration for several months, a great many options are more possible. But it won't be easy to hold out that long, as there are downsides too.Gardenwalker said:
That's why we need to kick the can down the road. Announce a process to figure out what the answer is and we'll decide later. Meanwhile commit to the single market to reassure the FTSE. We're all to crazed to work out the answer right now.kle4 said:
This.MP_SE said:
50 letters would put a stop to that.williamglenn said:
Renegotiation is on.SeanT said:Newsnight very clear that the British mustn't Brexit and we can renegotiate - according to Germany
If you were the new PM taking over in these circumstances, would you just give up the massive leverage we have to get a new deal and instead press on with Article 50? It would be insane to give up a diplomatic hand like that.
Let's say for the moment for the sake of argument it's already clear Leaving is a hopeless option and cannot be made to work well - I'd say it was far too early to make that call, but let's accept the premise - and there's this opportunity to renegotiate. The problem is it is too soon for both sides. The mood is too raw for the hardcore of Leavers for whom its all they care about, and the millions who have been delighted by the outcome, and a moderately hostile EU getting all defensive. This government could not survive backing down on that, or being seen to back down on that, and given it is too soon for any problems to be felt nationwide, it would be too provocative for the public who as of yet would not be ready to be re-convinced, that enough has changed to renegotiate. This government would fall, and would a 'negotiate' government be elected in its place?0 -
That's true but we are where we are. If Parliament somehow ends up voting down a Brexit bill then I for one as a longstanding and vocal opponents of referendums will celebrate, but I think it's an outside chance at best. So we grudgingly create what we had already in a Norway style deal, calm the markets, and get on with it.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm trying to respect the will of the people.SeanT said:
Sure. I bet millions voted on the grounds of immigration. I also bet millions (like me) voted because of sovereignty and freedom, and don't remotely mind Polish nurses and Romanian plumbers.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm fairly certain restricting immigration and free movement was mentioned occasionally.SeanT said:
This is just a lie. They voted LEAVE. That's all we know, all we can know, unless you want to make windows into men's souls.TheScreamingEagles said:
Unfortunately the country voted for Brexit with no free movement.SeanT said:
Yes. With some promises that we will revisit it in time, to see if it has worked, and the proviso that we have a sort of emergency brake. Not ideal, but there we are.TheScreamingEagles said:
With free movement?SeanT said:
SO WE STAY IN THE EFFING SINGLE MARKETYellowSubmarine said:City A.M.: Bye London hello Edinburgh? Finance won't stay if we exit the Single Market. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw9Miapys
I hope Boris is reading
Incidentally, the News at Ten reports Gordon Brown is tomorrow coming out for this solution: EEA with emergency brake.
A consensus is forming. i think it could command 60% of the voters. We're out, but in the single market. The EU will also want this.
The EU army thing, today, by itself, renders all dreams of continued EU membership utterly inoperable.
We must respect the will of the people, or Nigel Farage will become even more odious in his campaigning
All we have in common is that we voted LEAVE, and that's the only conclusion any democrat can draw. The people said LEAVE. So we LEAVE.
Why are you making this harder? You lost. Get over it. We're out. Now let's go for what is clearly the best option: Norway EEA. We all agree, we want Britain to thrive and survive, it's the best choice, and it honours democracy. So let's crack on.
You might have remembered Dave, George, and various companies warning about the economic shocks of Leaving.
You and your fellow Leavers chose to ignore them.0 -
It's one of those political lies like 'I will not resign' 'I have made no plans for [if I lose]' etc. Everyone knows they're not true.bigjohnowls said:Seema Malhotra says string of resignations after Benn's sacking wasn't co-ordinated. Surely doesn't expect anyone to believe it?
FFS does anyone think that is not an outright lie.
Think PLP are just trying to piss members off now
Though at the moment COrbyn is proving how atypical he is as, for now, he really wasn't lying about not standing down just because most of his MPs have no faith in him.
And to think, when you first came to this country you couldn't even speak this beautiful language, IIRCSunil_Prasannan said:
English is the best language in the world!edmundintokyo said:
2 others if you include Scotland, and it takes unanimity to change it.peter_from_putney said:
I doubt that very much - it's the second language in 23 out of 27 states afaiaa and of course the first language in 1 other.John_M said:
Well, they might very well do so Anne. What would they replace it with? English is the global lingua franca. If that's not the very definition of irony, what is?AnneJGP said:
It occurs to me that, once the UK leaves, the EU can drop English as a standard language.SeanT said:Those EU Army proposals, which we were told were rubbish
http://eeas.europa.eu/statements-eeas/2016/160628_02_en.htm
Consider: at this year's Eurovision Final, all but one song were sung wholly or partially in English!0
