"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
Thanks Andy. Maybe I was a bit quick to pour scorn on that BBC Midlands political commentator who was saying 55 to 60% remain at the start of the night, which looks perfectly possible if he was seeing the votes from some of those wards going 75% remain.
The evidence that Eagle will be successful includes the fact that right now Corbyn intends to go into a general election with less than 20% of his MPs behind him. Can you imagine what a campaign would be like?
Again, this is only evidence that Corbyn is not successful -- that is not the same thing as evidence that the alternative would be more successful. You're doing the equivalent of Labour's strategy in 2010-15, where they spent all their time talking about how bad and incompetent the Tories were without giving a rationale for why they would do a better job.
Where is the evidence that Angela Eagle would be popular with the public, would be seen as a potential PM, can read the public mood and has the policies that appeal to the public?
Out of interest, how do you think Corbyn's views on Trident, immigration, the monarchy, shoot to kill and foreign policy sit with the public?
The workers are clamouring for all of it, if only the workers understood.
Dont fall into Browns investment trap. The vast majority of that £30 billion so called investment is maintenance and renewals.
You are right about Euston. Concentrating all fast intercity services to the north on one line and terminus is crazy - another reason to cancel the eastern leg and spend the money adding capacity and speed upgrades to ECML and MML instead.
"The vast majority of that £30 billion so called investment is maintenance and renewals."
I'm pretty sure that's incorrect (*). From memory the budget is split into three: maintenance, renewals, and improvements (under different names). I *think* income to NR from the TOCs is enough pay for the first two for the last couple of years; it's improvements to the networks that are taking the majority of the budget. But I don't have the figures to hand. Perhaps in the Hendy Report?
AIUI the capacity constraints are mianly on the WCML, not the ECML and MML.
(*) But you know your sausages on this, so feel free to correct me.
£12.9bn for enhancements. Of course, the assumptions about GWEP proved to be way out and the upshot is that schemes planned for CP5 have now been shoved into CP6.
Ah, thanks. )
The Great Western electrification is showing - again - how hard and costly it is to do major upgrades to working rail routes.
And also, we haven't been electrifying railways for years so we lack the technical experience. What you want is to get the experience and keep going bit by bit over a number of decades.
Indeed. I expect the MML and Northern electrification schemes to be better planned and executed.
It's time to bring out the inconvenient truth that Thatcher's government electrified hundreds of miles of railway (ECML, Cambridge, Norwich etc),. Blair's government did twelve or so (I think Kidsgrove to Crewe on the North Stafford line)
I'm an open minded voter and drift around the Tory/Lib Dem axis, I voted in Anna Soubry last year as the Labour candidate was an arse. I would not vote for Johnson's Tories unless he came up with some stunning policies, and he won't.
New to PB.com and its posters are we Harold?
PB.com no, but the posters yes. I used to lurk a good few years ago but aside from SeanT and ex-MP nick I remember few of the names.
Angela Eagle comes from that part of the Labour movement that I can't read or process. ( So no national emergency £3 from me ) However a female LGBT leader would be a huge step for Labour given it's roots and history. And as a challenger to Islington socialism is a useful culture war weapon.
That's not an answer to my question. Do you think Eagle would be more electorally successful? What evidence is there of it?
Furthermore, Corbyn has not a single idea or policy that he could not have had in the 1980s. This means that in 30+ years he has learnt the sum total of nothing. As such I question his intellect for the job.
He cannot work with people who do not agree with him. There is no evidence that Corbyn could form an election winning coalition. He can barely agree with people who have voted Labour all their lives. Never has Labour been more divided.
He is inarticulate, he can barely express his own ideas without resorting to trite generalisations. He speaks like he is permanently in a political meeting.
His ego is galactic. He has encourages a personality cult around his leadership that goes against everything Labour stands for. A cult that now risks the destruction of the party he leads.
Is that getting clearer?
Nope, because these are all still only arguments why Corbyn is bad. They are not arguments why Eagle (or anyone else) is better, that she would be more capable of working with people who don't agree with him, that she is more articulate and can speak without resorting to generalisations, etcetc.
You are being deliberately obtuse. To spell it out on these counts.
She is not great, but is better than Corbyn on charisma and speaking. At least has the chance to improve.
Eagle can clearly create a broad tent (Quite frankly any tent is an improvement to the bomb crater we have now)
She has proven track record on policy. She has a brain.
And she does not encourage others to think she is God. This is a Huge improvement.
Jonathan - she was godawful in that ITV referendum debate. Godawful. And her voice is not a leader's voice. Please no.
At least she showed up.
No She was shown up.. slight but important difference... ghastly shrill voice.. probably very clever, but leader = LOL
Could May appoint Cameron to a top Cabinet post - ie Foreign Sec or Chancellor?
I think Cameron has had enough, and why not? It's not as if politics is the be all and end all. He can ride off into a lucrative sunset with Sam and proto-apprentice Nancy et al and have a lovely, lovely life.
I'll be very sorry to see him go. If only he hadn't called me a Little Englander. Shame that.
The evidence that Eagle will be successful includes the fact that right now Corbyn intends to go into a general election with less than 20% of his MPs behind him. Can you imagine what a campaign would be like?
Again, this is only evidence that Corbyn is not successful -- that is not the same thing as evidence that the alternative would be more successful. You're doing the equivalent of Labour's strategy in 2010-15, where they spent all their time talking about how bad and incompetent the Tories were without giving a rationale for why they would do a better job.
Where is the evidence that Angela Eagle would be popular with the public, would be seen as a potential PM, can read the public mood and has the policies that appeal to the public?
Out of interest, how do you think Corbyn's views on Trident, immigration, the monarchy, shoot to kill and foreign policy sit with the public?
They don't sit very well at all with the public -- but, as a comparison of Corbyn's results in the May local elections (a narrow albeit unspectacular first place) and the "Remain" campaign (a defeat despite much bigger institutional advantages) shows, they sit better than the Labour moderates' policy of telling people they should essentially settle with the status quo and that the economy is fine as it is.
Could May appoint Cameron to a top Cabinet post - ie Foreign Sec or Chancellor?
I think Cameron has had enough, and why not? It's not as if politics is the be all and end all. He can ride off into a lucrative sunset with Sam and proto-apprentice Nancy et al and have a lovely, lovely life.
I'll be very sorry to see him go. If only he hadn't called me a Little Englander. Shame that.
He's young enough to come back again in 10 years when the kids are grown up
And I have said on here before, remember that Mr Corbyn has been informed and knows all about the activity on 'that road' that would damn many of his enemies in the PLP right now. Now that would be the ultimate nuclear option!
It would damn many of his enemies but would probably also damn himself. His former constituency agent was Derek Sawyer.
It almost beggars belief that Margaret Hodge is still around, exerting high-level political influence.
Yes the same Derek Sawyer that got on oh so well with Andrea Davison. And I agree with you about the Oppenheimer lady, she should have been out on her ar*e years ago if we had a healthy functioning democracy.
Could May appoint Cameron to a top Cabinet post - ie Foreign Sec or Chancellor?
I think Cameron has had enough, and why not? It's not as if politics is the be all and end all. He can ride off into a lucrative sunset with Sam and proto-apprentice Nancy et al and have a lovely, lovely life.
I'll be very sorry to see him go. If only he hadn't called me a Little Englander. Shame that.
He's young enough to come back again in 10 years when the kids are grown up
Bet he was planning on an EU commissioner post. Oh well.
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
Angela Eagle comes from that part of the Labour movement that I can't read or process. ( So no national emergency £3 from me ) However a female LGBT leader would be a huge step for Labour given it's roots and history. And as a challenger to Islington socialism is a useful culture war weapon.
Urgh no. We really don't need any symbolism. I've not followed either Eagle, though I thought Angela was mediocre in debate #1. We must get past the 'woman' + 'lesbian' idea. A person should stand on their own merits. I don't care about a politician's gender, sexuality or ethnicity. That's just so 20th century.
The evidence that Eagle will be successful includes the fact that right now Corbyn intends to go into a general election with less than 20% of his MPs behind him. Can you imagine what a campaign would be like?
Again, this is only evidence that Corbyn is not successful -- that is not the same thing as evidence that the alternative would be more successful. You're doing the equivalent of Labour's strategy in 2010-15, where they spent all their time talking about how bad and incompetent the Tories were without giving a rationale for why they would do a better job.
Where is the evidence that Angela Eagle would be popular with the public, would be seen as a potential PM, can read the public mood and has the policies that appeal to the public?
Out of interest, how do you think Corbyn's views on Trident, immigration, the monarchy, shoot to kill and foreign policy sit with the public?
They don't sit very well at all with the public -- but, as a comparison of Corbyn's results in the May local elections (a narrow albeit unspectacular first place) and the "Remain" campaign (a defeat despite much bigger institutional advantages) shows, they sit better than the Labour moderates' policy of telling people they should essentially settle with the status quo and that the economy is fine as it is.
Which is why Labour MPs from the left and centre left have also rejected his leadership.
Could May appoint Cameron to a top Cabinet post - ie Foreign Sec or Chancellor?
I think Cameron has had enough, and why not? It's not as if politics is the be all and end all. He can ride off into a lucrative sunset with Sam and proto-apprentice Nancy et al and have a lovely, lovely life.
I'll be very sorry to see him go. If only he hadn't called me a Little Englander. Shame that.
He's young enough to come back again in 10 years when the kids are grown up
Bet he was planning on an EU commissioner post. Oh well.
I'm not sure that's what Sam had in mind for him. I think she wants a quieter family life mostly away from the public eye. And who could blame her?
Could May appoint Cameron to a top Cabinet post - ie Foreign Sec or Chancellor?
I think Cameron has had enough, and why not? It's not as if politics is the be all and end all. He can ride off into a lucrative sunset with Sam and proto-apprentice Nancy et al and have a lovely, lovely life.
I'll be very sorry to see him go. If only he hadn't called me a Little Englander. Shame that.
He's young enough to come back again in 10 years when the kids are grown up
True. I simply can't imagine why he'd want to. History will be far kinder to him than Blair.
The evidence that Eagle will be successful includes the fact that right now Corbyn intends to go into a general election with less than 20% of his MPs behind him. Can you imagine what a campaign would be like?
Again, this is only evidence that Corbyn is not successful -- that is not the same thing as evidence that the alternative would be more successful. You're doing the equivalent of Labour's strategy in 2010-15, where they spent all their time talking about how bad and incompetent the Tories were without giving a rationale for why they would do a better job.
Where is the evidence that Angela Eagle would be popular with the public, would be seen as a potential PM, can read the public mood and has the policies that appeal to the public?
Out of interest, how do you think Corbyn's views on Trident, immigration, the monarchy, shoot to kill and foreign policy sit with the public?
They don't sit very well at all with the public -- but, as a comparison of Corbyn's results in the May local elections (a narrow albeit unspectacular first place) and the "Remain" campaign (a defeat despite much bigger institutional advantages) shows, they sit better than the Labour moderates' policy of telling people they should essentially settle with the status quo and that the economy is fine as it is.
Which is why Labour MPs from the left and centre left have also rejected his leadership.
All of whom had such poor political judgement that they didn't foresee how unpopular the "Remain" campaign would be with the public.
Could May appoint Cameron to a top Cabinet post - ie Foreign Sec or Chancellor?
I think Cameron has had enough, and why not? It's not as if politics is the be all and end all. He can ride off into a lucrative sunset with Sam and proto-apprentice Nancy et al and have a lovely, lovely life.
I'll be very sorry to see him go. If only he hadn't called me a Little Englander. Shame that.
He's young enough to come back again in 10 years when the kids are grown up
Bet he was planning on an EU commissioner post. Oh well.
I'm not sure that's what Sam had in mind for him. I think she wants a quieter family life mostly away from the public eye. And who could blame her?
Daves also got candy crush soda saga & candy crush jelly saga to complete!
As I saod last thread. Theresa becomes leader advocates and agrees EEA membership with the EU, calls a snap election vs Corbyn who just about holds on, watches Labour get destroyed in the north by UKIP. After winning she makes Boris chancellor to deliver the Leave prospectus and the millions per week to the NHS. In one stroke she has defeated her rival and decapitated Labour while delivering an economic settlement that will placate most Tory voters who plumped for Leave as we will be out of the EU and have control over our laws and non-EU trade.
Theresa May could be a modern day Michael Corleone at the end of the Godfather.
Or a modern day Cersei.
Hmm, of Theresa does to London what Cersei does to King's Landing then I might have to vote for Boris.
I have to say that that coup was mind-blowing in its audacity. And watching it all unfold from a distance, while sipping from a glass of red wine, is classy villainy.
Dont fall into Browns investment trap. The vast majority of that £30 billion so called investment is maintenance and renewals.
You are right about Euston. Concentrating all fast intercity services to the north on one line and terminus is crazy - another reason to cancel the eastern leg and spend the money adding capacity and speed upgrades to ECML and MML instead.
"The vast majority of that £30 billion so called investment is maintenance and renewals."
I'm pretty sure that's incorrect (*). From memory the budget is split into three: maintenance, renewals, and improvements (under different names). I *think* income to NR from the TOCs is enough pay for the first two for the last couple of years; it's improvements to the networks that are taking the majority of the budget. But I don't have the figures to hand. Perhaps in the Hendy Report?
AIUI the capacity constraints are mianly on the WCML, not the ECML and MML.
(*) But you know your sausages on this, so feel free to correct me.
£12.9bn for enhancements. Of course, the assumptions about GWEP proved to be way out and the upshot is that schemes planned for CP5 have now been shoved into CP6.
Ah, thanks. )
The Great Western electrification is showing - again - how hard and costly it is to do major upgrades to working rail routes.
And also, we haven't been electrifying railways for years so we lack the technical experience. What you want is to get the experience and keep going bit by bit over a number of decades.
Not strictly true - the Airdrie-Bathgate-Edinburgh line was a recent piece of juicing and there have been other bits and pieces.
Is she better than Corbyn on charisma and speaking? Call me "obtuse" all you want, but you're genuinely going to have to spell out to me the ways in which she's better than Corbyn presentationally. As far as I see it, she is really terrible at handling awkward questions in interviews, doesn't have much obvious "charm" that comes through on telly, lapses into impenetrable politics-speak much more than Corbyn, and doesn't have any more kind of natural "gravitas" than Corbyn does.
She has a proven track record on policy? What's she done? What does she stand for?
By all accounts she's a good MP, but there's no evidence - and in my view not even any halfway-convincing arguments - that she would have a better chance of winning a General Election than Corbyn.
Sorry for calling you obtuse, that was rude. But this is very simple. It's quite frustrating discussion
In a parliamentary democracy, it matters that you have the confidence of the party you lead in parliament. That's kind of the whole point. This alone disqualifies Corbyn from the job he is clinging on to. If Eagle commands the support of the party, she is better qualified than he.
We can then discuss general qualifications for political leadership. Whilst Eagle is not charismatic, neither is Corbyn. Where she trumps Corbyn is in policy, the ability to work with others (which is surely the essence of politics) and not believing her own hype. I could go on, but alone is enough.
I am prepared to take the last point if we ever get into JezWeCan situation with Angela Eagle, but somehow I doubt that will happen.
It occurs to me that, once the UK leaves, the EU can drop English as a standard language.
Maybe we should tell 'em they can't use English any more.
You're a little behind the curve, as France is already pushing for this. Presumably in the hope that French takes its place. As I understand it, each country is only allowed to nominate one language, and the other two English speaking countries have nominated Gaelic and Maltese as theirs. Since I would imagine many of the ROI MEPs don't actually speak Gaelic (and have no idea how widespread Maltese is in Malta), I would guess that without the Uk the ROI may well have to change its choice, if its MEPs want to have any idea what their colleagues from other countries are saying during debates.
So what would you like the UK to do? Join the EEA? Or leave the single market as well? What? Serious question. I'm interested to know how REMAINERS are thinking.
We have voted - narrowly - to Brexit. But we have not agreed as a country in which direction, by what process, and how long. As this is a matter of supreme political, constitutional and economic importance, I really don't want this to be determined by whoever wins the Tory party leadership.
The next leader - May? - needs to:
1. State the above 2. Reassure all EU, non-British citizens currently in the UK that whatever happens they will be able to stay and work. 3. Declare that remaining in the single market is of supreme importance to the UK
She then needs to outline a process whereby a committee - including representatives from the nations i.e. Scotland - outline options, which will be voted on as a country either in another referendum or perhaps better in a general election.
She should also say that the process above will take at least a full term of parliament.
Effectively, we need to kick this can down the road, until we can create a process whereby we can democratically work out WTF we are doing.
Hopefully Europe/Merkel will have worked out by the time we do actually vote that if they want us to stay there needs to be a deal on freedom of movement.
We then don't need another referendum tomorrow, or an immediate general election.
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
Why do people think May is a good leader? For keeping her head down in the Referendum - is that it?
If Boris disappears for 5 minutes, there's cries of "where's Boris". But when May avoids taking a stand at all on the most important issue facing Britain in a generation, that somehow makes her good leader material?
It makes no sense.
I suspect that when there are cries of "where's Boris" after he's disappeared for 5 minutes it's because people want to check up on if he's changed his mind again re the single market
As I saod last thread. Theresa becomes leader advocates and agrees EEA membership with the EU, calls a snap election vs Corbyn who just about holds on, watches Labour get destroyed in the north by UKIP. After winning she makes Boris chancellor to deliver the Leave prospectus and the millions per week to the NHS. In one stroke she has defeated her rival and decapitated Labour while delivering an economic settlement that will placate most Tory voters who plumped for Leave as we will be out of the EU and have control over our laws and non-EU trade.
Theresa May could be a modern day Michael Corleone at the end of the Godfather.
Or a modern day Cersei.
Hmm, of Theresa does to London what Cersei does to King's Landing then I might have to vote for Boris.
I have to say that that coup was mind-blowing in its audacity. And watching it all unfold from a distance, while sipping from a glass of red wine, is classy villainy.
The opening with the beautiful piano soundtrack was some of the finest television I've seen. Great finale and a good recovery from the frankly shonky episodes 7&8. Roll on season 7!
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
The evidence that Eagle will be successful includes the fact that right now Corbyn intends to go into a general election with less than 20% of his MPs behind him. Can you imagine what a campaign would be like?
Again, this is only evidence that Corbyn is not successful -- that is not the same thing as evidence that the alternative would be more successful. You're doing the equivalent of Labour's strategy in 2010-15, where they spent all their time talking about how bad and incompetent the Tories were without giving a rationale for why they would do a better job.
Where is the evidence that Angela Eagle would be popular with the public, would be seen as a potential PM, can read the public mood and has the policies that appeal to the public?
Out of interest, how do you think Corbyn's views on Trident, immigration, the monarchy, shoot to kill and foreign policy sit with the public?
They don't sit very well at all with the public -- but, as a comparison of Corbyn's results in the May local elections (a narrow albeit unspectacular first place) and the "Remain" campaign (a defeat despite much bigger institutional advantages) shows, they sit better than the Labour moderates' policy of telling people they should essentially settle with the status quo and that the economy is fine as it is.
I would exempt trident from this list of otherwise obviously unpopular positions. Opposing trident is a respectable political position (shared with the LibDems, SNP, PC and Greens and, yes, I think even UKIP) which in most polls commands a reasonable level of public support.
Dont fall into Browns investment trap. The vast majority of that £30 billion so called investment is maintenance and renewals.
You are right about Euston. Concentrating all fast intercity services to the north on one line and terminus is crazy - another reason to cancel the eastern leg and spend the money adding capacity and speed upgrades to ECML and MML instead.
"The vast majority of that £30 billion so called investment is maintenance and renewals."
I'm pretty sure that's incorrect (*). From memory the budget is split into three: maintenance, renewals, and improvements (under different names). I *think* income to NR from the TOCs is enough pay for the first two for the last couple of years; it's improvements to the networks that are taking the majority of the budget. But I don't have the figures to hand. Perhaps in the Hendy Report?
AIUI the capacity constraints are mianly on the WCML, not the ECML and MML.
(*) But you know your sausages on this, so feel free to correct me.
£12.9bn for enhancements. Of course, the assumptions about GWEP proved to be way out and the upshot is that schemes planned for CP5 have now been shoved into CP6.
Ah, thanks. )
The Great Western electrification is showing - again - how hard and costly it is to do major upgrades to working rail routes.
And also, we haven't been electrifying railways for years so we lack the technical experience. What you want is to get the experience and keep going bit by bit over a number of decades.
Indeed. I expect the MML and Northern electrification schemes to be better planned and executed.
It's time to bring out the inconvenient truth that Thatcher's government electrified hundreds of miles of railway (ECML, Cambridge, Norwich etc),. Blair's government did twelve or so (I think Kidsgrove to Crewe on the North Stafford line)
This may be so, but much of this was done with accompanying levels of rationalisation that have caused increasing capacity problems ever since.
To be fair to the New Labour era the enhancements (of sorts as I hate Voyagers) focused on new rolling stock - as the existing was utterly clapped out post privatisation.
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
If you know Brum that makes very interesting reading.
It shows just how divided things were. Probably the same story in places like Leeds and Sheffield. Clegg's constituency probably voted massively Remain.
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
Thanks Andy. Maybe I was a bit quick to pour scorn on that BBC Midlands political commentator who was saying 55 to 60% remain at the start of the night, which looks perfectly possible if he was seeing the votes from some of those wards going 75% remain.
Does that show a split amongst Asian vs White wards?
It occurs to me that, once the UK leaves, the EU can drop English as a standard language.
Maybe we should tell 'em they can't use English any more.
You're a little behind the curve, as France is already pushing for this. Presumably in the hope that French takes its place. As I understand it, each country is only allowed to nominate one language, and the other two English speaking countries have nominated Gaelic and Maltese as theirs. Since I would imagine many of the ROI MEPs don't actually speak Gaelic (and have no idea how widespread Maltese is in Malta), I would guess that without the Uk the ROI may well have to change its choice, if its MEPs want to have any idea what their colleagues from other countries are saying during debates.
The French have already been shot down in flames. It's just more post-Brexit twitching.
Why do people think May is a good leader? For keeping her head down in the Referendum - is that it?
If Boris disappears for 5 minutes, there's cries of "where's Boris". But when May avoids taking a stand at all on the most important issue facing Britain in a generation, that somehow makes her good leader material?
It makes no sense.
I suspect that when there are cries of "where's Boris" after he's disappeared for 5 minutes it's because people want to check up on if he's changed his mind again re the single market
Safe pair of hands. Compared with "cripes I just pulled out this pin! Blimey, what does it do?"
The evidence that Eagle will be successful includes the fact that right now Corbyn intends to go into a general election with less than 20% of his MPs behind him. Can you imagine what a campaign would be like?
Again, this is only evidence that Corbyn is not successful -- that is not the same thing as evidence that the alternative would be more successful. You're doing the equivalent of Labour's strategy in 2010-15, where they spent all their time talking about how bad and incompetent the Tories were without giving a rationale for why they would do a better job.
Where is the evidence that Angela Eagle would be popular with the public, would be seen as a potential PM, can read the public mood and has the policies that appeal to the public?
Out of interest, how do you think Corbyn's views on Trident, immigration, the monarchy, shoot to kill and foreign policy sit with the public?
They don't sit very well at all with the public -- but, as a comparison of Corbyn's results in the May local elections (a narrow albeit unspectacular first place) and the "Remain" campaign (a defeat despite much bigger institutional advantages) shows, they sit better than the Labour moderates' policy of telling people they should essentially settle with the status quo and that the economy is fine as it is.
Which is why Labour MPs from the left and centre left have also rejected his leadership.
All of whom had such poor political judgement that they didn't foresee how unpopular the "Remain" campaign would be with the public.
They expected their leader to lead and he did not. He let them down and he let the Labour party down. So, yes, I guess they did show remarkably poor political judgement. They should have realised that Corbyn has no interest in promoting Labour policy. That makes them naïve, I admit, but it makes Corbyn unfit to be leader.
Given that Corbyn supporters, too, actively and passionately campaigned to remain in the EU, what does that say about their judgement?
Why do people think May is a good leader? For keeping her head down in the Referendum - is that it?
If Boris disappears for 5 minutes, there's cries of "where's Boris". But when May avoids taking a stand at all on the most important issue facing Britain in a generation, that somehow makes her good leader material?
It makes no sense.
I suspect that when there are cries of "where's Boris" after he's disappeared for 5 minutes it's because people want to check up on if he's changed his mind again re the single market
Safe pair of hands. Compared with "cripes I just pulled out this pin! Blimey, what does it do?"
By now Boris should know that.those kind of pins hold up ladies expensive dresses.
The longer this goes on the more I think it's a gigantic bluff (which has catastrophically failed), or Eagle is just a feint for someone else.
Eagle is useless. The Messiah will just smile and fix her with a beady eye, and she'll dissolve into tears again...
I wonder whether she's playing it more than one way? She may well know that she's not the best person to lead Labour but that Corbyn is so catastrophically bad that someone has to come forward. If she does it then it either prompts a really big beast to follow suit or else she can take over and do the best she can, in the belief that the worst she could do would be better than the likely best that Corbyn would.
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
Thanks Andy. Maybe I was a bit quick to pour scorn on that BBC Midlands political commentator who was saying 55 to 60% remain at the start of the night, which looks perfectly possible if he was seeing the votes from some of those wards going 75% remain.
Does that show a split amongst Asian vs White wards?
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
Why do people think May is a good leader? For keeping her head down in the Referendum - is that it?
If Boris disappears for 5 minutes, there's cries of "where's Boris". But when May avoids taking a stand at all on the most important issue facing Britain in a generation, that somehow makes her good leader material?
It makes no sense.
I suspect that when there are cries of "where's Boris" after he's disappeared for 5 minutes it's because people want to check up on if he's changed his mind again re the single market
Safe pair of hands. Compared with "cripes I just pulled out this pin! Blimey, what does it do?"
If Boris gets to the final two then it is in the bag.
The best reason to remove Corbyn is not because someone else would be a better leader, but because he is currently changing the party so completely into a party of protest and opposition that they may never see power again in my lifetime. That would be his long term after effects, not a change in name on the web site or a reshuffle once a new leader is elected. If he stays Labour are almost done and would need to split, to get back to the centre ground.
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
Thanks Andy. Maybe I was a bit quick to pour scorn on that BBC Midlands political commentator who was saying 55 to 60% remain at the start of the night, which looks perfectly possible if he was seeing the votes from some of those wards going 75% remain.
Does that show a split amongst Asian vs White wards?
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
Thanks Andy. Maybe I was a bit quick to pour scorn on that BBC Midlands political commentator who was saying 55 to 60% remain at the start of the night, which looks perfectly possible if he was seeing the votes from some of those wards going 75% remain.
Does that show a split amongst Asian vs White wards?
Yes. Pretty high Remain vote in the Asian areas.
Sad.
But in Leicester the Asian vote must have split a lot more evenly.
The longer this goes on the more I think it's a gigantic bluff (which has catastrophically failed), or Eagle is just a feint for someone else.
Eagle is useless. The Messiah will just smile and fix her with a beady eye, and she'll dissolve into tears again...
I wonder whether she's playing it more than one way? She may well know that she's not the best person to lead Labour but that Corbyn is so catastrophically bad that someone has to come forward. If she does it then it either prompts a really big beast to follow suit or else she can take over and do the best she can, in the belief that the worst she could do would be better than the likely best that Corbyn would.
So what would you like the UK to do? Join the EEA? Or leave the single market as well? What? Serious question. I'm interested to know how REMAINERS are thinking.
We have voted - narrowly - to Brexit. But we have not agreed as a country in which direction, by what process, and how long. As this is a matter of supreme political, constitutional and economic importance, I really don't want this to be determined by whoever wins the Tory party leadership.
The next leader - May? - needs to:
1. State the above 2. Reassure all EU, non-British citizens currently in the UK that whatever happens they will be able to stay and work. 3. Declare that remaining in the single market is of supreme importance to the UK
She then needs to outline a process whereby a committee - including representatives from the nations i.e. Scotland - outline options, which will be voted on as a country either in another referendum or perhaps better in a general election.
She should also say that the process above will take at least a full term of parliament.
Effectively, we need to kick this can down the road, until we can create a process whereby we can democratically work out WTF we are doing.
Hopefully Europe/Merkel will have worked out by the time we do actually vote that if they want us to stay there needs to be a deal on freedom of movement.
We then don't need another referendum tomorrow, or an immediate general election.
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
Thanks Andy. Maybe I was a bit quick to pour scorn on that BBC Midlands political commentator who was saying 55 to 60% remain at the start of the night, which looks perfectly possible if he was seeing the votes from some of those wards going 75% remain.
Does that show a split amongst Asian vs White wards?
Yes. Pretty high Remain vote in the Asian areas.
A university influence was the biggest indicator of high Remain support throughout the country.
I am still trying to get my head around Surrey being 52/48. If anywhere outside of London would think had all the positives of EU membership + uni etc you would have thought Surrey.
Why do people think May is a good leader? For keeping her head down in the Referendum - is that it?
If Boris disappears for 5 minutes, there's cries of "where's Boris". But when May avoids taking a stand at all on the most important issue facing Britain in a generation, that somehow makes her good leader material?
It makes no sense.
Because she isn't beholden to all of Leave's undeliverable policies. Boris will find it as tough being leader while leaving as Dave would have if we had stayed and that EU army press release came out today after he promised no EU army.
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
I am still trying to get my head around Surrey being 52/48. If anywhere outside of London would think had all the positives of EU membership + uni etc you would have thought Surrey.
It's where the culture war rhetoric works, as much as economic benefits, I would say.
Indeed. I expect the MML and Northern electrification schemes to be better planned and executed.
It's time to bring out the inconvenient truth that Thatcher's government electrified hundreds of miles of railway (ECML, Cambridge, Norwich etc),. Blair's government did twelve or so (I think Kidsgrove to Crewe on the North Stafford line)
Can I just go back to this business of capacity? Since my eyesight went wonky I have been doing most of my travelling by train and have found that provided one avoids the rush hours trains are mostly empty (and very pleasant). On my last trip up North for example, there were I think four of us passengers in the entire carriage and I was hard pushed to keep up with the charming young lady who appeared by seat every twenty minutes or so asking me if I wanted any more free whisky (I struggled manfully and managed to do the offerings justice).
To be sure travelling at peak times is grim, but isn't the answer to that not to travel at peak times, we are after all talking about inter-city travel with HS2 not local commuter trains (which are beyond the pale anyway). Spending £50bn on adding capacity to a network which is most of the time underused seems daft to me.
The longer this goes on the more I think it's a gigantic bluff (which has catastrophically failed), or Eagle is just a feint for someone else.
Eagle is useless. The Messiah will just smile and fix her with a beady eye, and she'll dissolve into tears again...
I wonder whether she's playing it more than one way? She may well know that she's not the best person to lead Labour but that Corbyn is so catastrophically bad that someone has to come forward. If she does it then it either prompts a really big beast to follow suit or else she can take over and do the best she can, in the belief that the worst she could do would be better than the likely best that Corbyn would.
I'm sure they're thinking tonight:-
"Shit. We've pulled all the levers and pressed all the buttons. He's still there! What have we done? And what the hell do we do now?..."
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
If you know Brum that makes very interesting reading.
Notable that all the areas around Birmingham University were Remain.
If only the young had voted in strength, things might have been very different. 26.3% national turnout is pretty disappointing.
*edit* Am I mistaken on the 18-24 bracket turnout? Seems low on re-reading.
I don't think this 26.3% figure is correct. Many young people are registered twice.
I checked and was mistaken. According to the Independent it was about 36.4% of 18-24 year olds. Of whom around 75% voted remain. That's where I was getting the bogus 26% from. Apologies.
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
Thanks Andy. Maybe I was a bit quick to pour scorn on that BBC Midlands political commentator who was saying 55 to 60% remain at the start of the night, which looks perfectly possible if he was seeing the votes from some of those wards going 75% remain.
Does that show a split amongst Asian vs White wards?
Yes. Pretty high Remain vote in the Asian areas.
Sad.
But in Leicester the Asian vote must have split a lot more evenly.
My impression was of my ethnically vibrant workmates:
Middle class Hindus for Leave.
Muslims for Remain or not voting because of Ramadan.
If Labour are going to take the drastic, anti-democratic step of removing their leader, then surely they need to do better than Eagle!!
I'm sorry, but no. She won't be a patch on Ed Miliband and look what happened to him.
They need to think big here and get this right.
Eagle is simply checking Labour's problems into left luggage. But the MPs clearly think it is better than having the suitcase open and the dirty washing spread out over the table,
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
Thanks Andy. Maybe I was a bit quick to pour scorn on that BBC Midlands political commentator who was saying 55 to 60% remain at the start of the night, which looks perfectly possible if he was seeing the votes from some of those wards going 75% remain.
Does that show a split amongst Asian vs White wards?
Yes. Pretty high Remain vote in the Asian areas.
Sad.
But in Leicester the Asian vote must have split a lot more evenly.
Then the Muslim vote might be heavily remain as Leicesters Asian population is more Hindu.
Won't bother most of the leaders of the Leave campaign as they're climate change deniers
That's a non-sequitur. We need more base generating power. Renewables at this point are nice-to-haves. I hope Hinckley gets cancelled and we build some more gas powered plants.
Could May appoint Cameron to a top Cabinet post - ie Foreign Sec or Chancellor?
Don’t see why not – only problem I foresee, is Cameron’s final departure date. Personally I don't see him hanging around till 2020.
I cannot see that, Cameron wouldn't want if after doing the top job.
Unlikely, perhaps but not unprecedented. Sir Alec Douglas Home was Foreign Secretary after being Prime Minister, and Neville Chamberlain served in Churchill's wartime cabinet.
Worth remembering that Angela Eagle voted for military action in Syria last year. Expect Corbynites to mention this once or twice in the coming months if she does stand. Will it be critical? i don't know but it's the sort of thing that ought to motivate the Stop the War brigade.
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
Thanks Andy. Maybe I was a bit quick to pour scorn on that BBC Midlands political commentator who was saying 55 to 60% remain at the start of the night, which looks perfectly possible if he was seeing the votes from some of those wards going 75% remain.
Does that show a split amongst Asian vs White wards?
Yes. Pretty high Remain vote in the Asian areas.
Sad.
But in Leicester the Asian vote must have split a lot more evenly.
My impression was of my ethnically vibrant workmates:
Middle class Hindus for Leave.
Muslims for Remain or not voting because of Ramadan.
Afro-Caribbeans for Remain
Filipinos for Leave
Europeans with voting rights for Remain.
It was a mixed picture.
I think the initial simplic analysis is just that. The reasons people voted the way they did appears in some places a bit more complex.
One thing that I thought of why certain areas with high Asian populations might have voted leave. Lots of small business owners & people working in small close knit organisations. The sort of places that EU redtape / regs (and regs blamed on eu) has a much more noticeable affect than working for a massive multi national.
"The EU referendum created a huge divide in Birmingham – with more than three quarters voting to Remain in some wards and the same ratio voting Leave in others. The Brexit battle in the city was the most fierce in the UK, with 50.4 per cent of more than 450,000 voters wanting to Leave. New data reveals how the votes differed wildly in different parts of the city. In all, 22 of Birmingham’s 40 wards voted to Leave, and 18 wanted to remain."
Thanks Andy. Maybe I was a bit quick to pour scorn on that BBC Midlands political commentator who was saying 55 to 60% remain at the start of the night, which looks perfectly possible if he was seeing the votes from some of those wards going 75% remain.
Does that show a split amongst Asian vs White wards?
Yes. Pretty high Remain vote in the Asian areas.
Sad.
But in Leicester the Asian vote must have split a lot more evenly.
Then the Muslim vote might be heavily remain as Leicesters Asian population is more Hindu.
Comments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q0CkeuSqxk
Eagle is useless. The Messiah will just smile and fix her with a beady eye, and she'll dissolve into tears again...
It's time to bring out the inconvenient truth that Thatcher's government electrified hundreds of miles of railway (ECML, Cambridge, Norwich etc),. Blair's government did twelve or so (I think Kidsgrove to Crewe on the North Stafford line)
Good night all.
I'll be very sorry to see him go. If only he hadn't called me a Little Englander. Shame that.
Heath appointed Alec Douglas-Home as Foreign Secretary
https://twitter.com/beforethestars/status/747546463803154432
Thanks for your reply earlier. I think if May makes the final two, she wins.
Unless it's against Hammond.
Which it isn't going to be.
In a parliamentary democracy, it matters that you have the confidence of the party you lead in parliament. That's kind of the whole point. This alone disqualifies Corbyn from the job he is clinging on to. If Eagle commands the support of the party, she is better qualified than he.
We can then discuss general qualifications for political leadership. Whilst Eagle is not charismatic, neither is Corbyn. Where she trumps Corbyn is in policy, the ability to work with others (which is surely the essence of politics) and not believing her own hype. I could go on, but alone is enough.
I am prepared to take the last point if we ever get into JezWeCan situation with Angela Eagle, but somehow I doubt that will happen.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jun/28/siemens-freezes-new-uk-wind-power-investment-following-brexit-vote?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard
But we have not agreed as a country in which direction, by what process, and how long.
As this is a matter of supreme political, constitutional and economic importance, I really don't want this to be determined by whoever wins the Tory party leadership.
The next leader - May? - needs to:
1. State the above
2. Reassure all EU, non-British citizens currently in the UK that whatever happens they will be able to stay and work.
3. Declare that remaining in the single market is of supreme importance to the UK
She then needs to outline a process whereby a committee - including representatives from the nations i.e. Scotland - outline options, which will be voted on as a country either in another referendum or perhaps better in a general election.
She should also say that the process above will take at least a full term of parliament.
Effectively, we need to kick this can down the road, until we can create a process whereby we can democratically work out WTF we are doing.
Hopefully Europe/Merkel will have worked out by the time we do actually vote that if they want us to stay there needs to be a deal on freedom of movement.
We then don't need another referendum tomorrow, or an immediate general election.
Once again, Cameron needs to take the blame for all of this. Jesus, even the NZers had to vote twice on the flag thing. Big changes shouldn't be decided on a 50/50.
See this: https://medium.com/@carlgardner/for-britains-sake-how-we-can-solve-this-crisis-d4b20492b303#.b0vuh7pk4
To be fair to the New Labour era the enhancements (of sorts as I hate Voyagers) focused on new rolling stock - as the existing was utterly clapped out post privatisation.
Given that Corbyn supporters, too, actively and passionately campaigned to remain in the EU, what does that say about their judgement?
Self destruction? Why not.
That would be his long term after effects, not a change in name on the web site or a reshuffle once a new leader is elected. If he stays Labour are almost done and would need to split, to get back to the centre ground.
Next.
*edit* Am I mistaken on the 18-24 bracket turnout? Seems low on re-reading.
https://t.co/xxE8lqnmFj
It's on...
I'm sorry, but no. She won't be a patch on Ed Miliband and look what happened to him.
They need to think big here and get this right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrQO6lXsvpA
To be sure travelling at peak times is grim, but isn't the answer to that not to travel at peak times, we are after all talking about inter-city travel with HS2 not local commuter trains (which are beyond the pale anyway). Spending £50bn on adding capacity to a network which is most of the time underused seems daft to me.
"Shit. We've pulled all the levers and pressed all the buttons. He's still there! What have we done? And what the hell do we do now?..."
Middle class Hindus for Leave.
Muslims for Remain or not voting because of Ramadan.
Afro-Caribbeans for Remain
Filipinos for Leave
Europeans with voting rights for Remain.
It was a mixed picture.
Between her and Watson, I would rather choose Watson. But Yvette would still be my first choice.
One thing that I thought of why certain areas with high Asian populations might have voted leave. Lots of small business owners & people working in small close knit organisations. The sort of places that EU redtape / regs (and regs blamed on eu) has a much more noticeable affect than working for a massive multi national.