Yes, they keep updating the number of people who've signed the petition for a re-run on their 'live news' page. This is cruel to those people who don't realise that it will have zero effect.
If they get past 17m it will be more interesting.
Why? I earlier heard R5 interviewing a Welsh football fan who said he was disappointed by the result. Then he said he hadn't voted. No-one can say that didn't know the referendum was taking place and the turn out suggests that people knew it was important - the rest is democracy.
I was merely pointing out that more people voted for this than anything else in UK history. 1m sad losers signing up means nothing at all.
I was a firm Remainer but accept the result absolutely and unconditionally: we will leave the EU. But if - and I readily accept that it's a big if at this stage - the predictions, so derided by the Leavers often in highly unpleasant and offensive tones, such as Scotland leaving the UK and sustained destabilisation in financial markets, with an eventual impact on the real economy, why on earth should somehow we remain silent?
The early portends on a number of fronts are not encouraging; how is it disloyal or unpatriotic to point this out?
Because the number one cause of recessions is people thinking there is going to be a recession.
For all the angst and wailing and gnashing of teeth the sun's still shining, the gardens looking great, children are still playing and birds are still singing.
Life goes on.
England whitewashed Australia in the rugby and the Euros are back on. It's a good day.
"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”
I know
What's hilarious is the Brexiteers desperately trying to erase it !
"We didn't campaign on immigration"
Priceless
I didn't support Leave for the issue of immigration, though I will say that immigration was the issue that put it over the top.
The Leave coalition is quite a diverse one, lefty leavers were for Leave as a vote against globalization, centrist leavers supported Leave as a vote for democracy, right leavers supported Leave as a vote against mass immigration.
That's why you need to include in the negotiation Labour leavers and Farage in order to represent all the sides, and make sure that they sign the agreement so that no one moans afterwards.
I was a firm Remainer but accept the result absolutely and unconditionally: we will leave the EU. But if - and I readily accept that it's a big if at this stage - the predictions, so derided by the Leavers often in highly unpleasant and offensive tones, such as Scotland leaving the UK and sustained destabilisation in financial markets, with an eventual impact on the real economy, why on earth should somehow we remain silent?
The early portends on a number of fronts are not encouraging; how is it disloyal or unpatriotic to point this out?
The victorious Leavers should be less sensitive, defensive and intolerant. You won!
I'd agree with that. But I also don't think Brexit should be judged by the predictable and predicted (even by Brexiters such as myself) turmoil of the immediate aftermath.
The full benefits of Brexit will not happen until after we leave and are able to prune out the wasteful directives, and start managing our society to our own preferences. That will take a while to start, and even longer to bear fruit.
Meanwhile as PB fumes into another dog fight the most important bit of the weekend goes unnoticed.
"Manfred Weber, who represents German Chancellor Angela Merkel's political party in the European parliament, said it was imperative to start negotiations with Britain soon about its departure, to ensure stability and avoid uncertainties.
"We want to negotiate a new relationship, not a nasty divorce," Weber told the Muencher Merkur newspaper. "My goal would be to wrap up the exit negotiations within about a year."
@CD13 I accept the verdict of the British people. I think it's a disaster on multiple levels, but there should be no rerun of the referendum. Leavers should now be left to implement the decision. As ScottP says, you Brexit, you own it.
It will be morbidly fascinating to watch the unfolding drama.
Until Cameron hands it over to a Leaver team to handle, it remains his problem.
Wrong - they already have the baton - they're just shit scared to tell their supporters the information contained therein.
That will be easy to solve: Vote.Leave will agree to drop its promise to spend more on the NHS in return for Leave.EU dropping its promise to stop immigration.
I was a firm Remainer but accept the result absolutely and unconditionally: we will leave the EU. But if - and I readily accept that it's a big if at this stage - the predictions, so derided by the Leavers often in highly unpleasant and offensive tones, such as Scotland leaving the UK and sustained destabilisation in financial markets, with an eventual impact on the real economy, why on earth should somehow we remain silent?
The early portends on a number of fronts are not encouraging; how is it disloyal or unpatriotic to point this out?
The victorious Leavers should be less sensitive, defensive and intolerant. You won!
Leave was a coalition of the sensitive, the defensive and the intolerant. We now know that's an election-winning coalition, which is a grim harbinger for the future.
Alastair continuing with his sensitivity, defensiveness and intolerance.
"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”
I know
What's hilarious is the Brexiteers desperately trying to erase it !
"We didn't campaign on immigration"
Priceless
I didn't support Leave for the issue of immigration, though I will say that immigration was the issue that put it over the top.
The Leave coalition is quite a diverse one, lefty leavers were for Leave as a vote against globalization, centrist leavers supported Leave as a vote for democracy, right leavers supported Leave as a vote against mass immigration.
That's why you need to include in the negotiation Labour leavers and Farage in order to represent all the sides, and make sure that they sign the agreement so that no one moans afterwards.
We also desperately need non-politicians and non-diplomats involved in the negotiations - people who know how to and have a successful track record as negotiators. From business, industry, finance - I don't care. But please don't leave the negotiations to neophytes.
Somehow your post brought to mind an image of a toddler throwing a screaming fit in a grocery store.
If Boris wants to see "toys out of pram" he can sign a deal that allows free movement.
Then duck
I have no problem with free movement as long as the EU kicks the SNP in it's balls in exchange for it.
You seem to be FUMING.
Never mind, I'm sure Speedy heart-throb James Kelly MSP is poised to take over the reins of SLab and will save the Union whilst kicking the SNP's balls.
Speaking of free movement of peoples. Is Nicky housing any refugees in any of her residences yet as she promised she would ?
Ooft, zinger, burn, bazinga, non sequitur etc.
I believe Scotland has taken about a third of the refugees to the UK from the current crisis, so perhaps all we Scots can be said to have taken in more than our share of refugees to our home.
- Article 50.2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention.
Tuesday's European Council meeting, imagined: "So, Mr Cameron, has the UK decided to withdraw from the European Union?" "Ermm... I am not permitted to say"
Somehow your post brought to mind an image of a toddler throwing a screaming fit in a grocery store.
If Boris wants to see "toys out of pram" he can sign a deal that allows free movement.
Then duck
I have no problem with free movement as long as the EU kicks the SNP in it's balls in exchange for it.
You seem to be FUMING.
Never mind, I'm sure Speedy heart-throb James Kelly MSP is poised to take over the reins of SLab and will save the Union whilst kicking the SNP's balls.
Speaking of free movement of peoples. Is Nicky housing any refugees in any of her residences yet as she promised she would ?
Ooft, zinger, burn, bazinga, non sequitur etc.
I believe Scotland has taken about a third of the refugees to the UK from the current crisis, so perhaps all we Scots can be said to have taken in more than our share of refugees to our home.
But not Sturgeon. I'd get on to her on that unfulfilled promise.
I was a firm Remainer but accept the result absolutely and unconditionally: we will leave the EU. But if - and I readily accept that it's a big if at this stage - the predictions, so derided by the Leavers often in highly unpleasant and offensive tones, such as Scotland leaving the UK and sustained destabilisation in financial markets, with an eventual impact on the real economy, why on earth should somehow we remain silent?
The early portends on a number of fronts are not encouraging; how is it disloyal or unpatriotic to point this out?
The victorious Leavers should be less sensitive, defensive and intolerant. You won!
Leave was a coalition of the sensitive, the defensive and the intolerant. We now know that's an election-winning coalition, which is a grim harbinger for the future.
Alastair continuing with his sensitivity, defensiveness and intolerance.
Q. Will Dmitri Payet be Euro 2016's Player of the Tournament?
A. Probably, should favourites France defeat England on Monday and then progress to the semi finals.
He has already demonstrated wonderful skills in the Group games and more of the same should guarantee the award for this West Ham star, who is probably the most naturally gifted taker of free kicks in the world today. For those unfamiliar, take a look:
- Article 50.2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention.
Tuesday's European Council meeting, imagined: "So, Mr Cameron, has the UK decided to withdraw from the European Union?" "Ermm... I am not permitted to say"
It's actually a good point - how can Cameron at that meeting *not* notify the Council of the UK's intention??
- Article 50.2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention.
Tuesday's European Council meeting, imagined: "So, Mr Cameron, has the UK decided to withdraw from the European Union?" "Ermm... I am not permitted to say"
Mr Cameron "The people have said in a referendum that they wish to leave - however it is non binding, so HMG will have to consider their options."
I was a firm Remainer but accept the result absolutely and unconditionally: we will leave the EU. But if - and I readily accept that it's a big if at this stage - the predictions, so derided by the Leavers often in highly unpleasant and offensive tones, such as Scotland leaving the UK and sustained destabilisation in financial markets, with an eventual impact on the real economy, why on earth should somehow we remain silent?
The early portends on a number of fronts are not encouraging; how is it disloyal or unpatriotic to point this out?
The victorious Leavers should be less sensitive, defensive and intolerant. You won!
I think theres such a thing as a self fulfilling prophesy. The more Scotland is told now that the EU is a wonderful place everyone sane and smart wants to be in, and we (read English bigots) made a terrible mistake/are heading for impoverished, racist hell, the more Scots will believe they must choose Brussels over the UK. In reality two fifths of Scots actually voted to leave the EU and Id bet a few voted to remain because they didn't want to face a new indy ref. Nicola isn't going to call a referendum unless she knows she'll win it, and with oil prices the way they are, Id also bet she wants to delay. But in the meantime she can pose as Scotland's saviour from the disaster England (and lets brush over Wales and 2/5 of Scotland) brought on. All voters are influenced by political mood music, and the relentless Remain barrage of Disaster is Inevitable/Remainers Are Victims/'Scotland and London are morally and intellectually superior to everywhere else' is a massive gift to Nicola. For sure you'll see a huge upsurge in Independence support in polls now and not just because we voted to leave and its scary, but because its being portrayed as catastrophe, without any suggestion it could be otherwise being heard any more. Hope and optimism for the UK aren't what Nicola wants to see.
Leave need to conduct themselves with dignity over the coming weeks and months. It's only day 2 and already we're seeing u-turns on immigration and the very edifice of the United Kingdom teetering. Now is not the time to cast blame. Leave must not blame the Remain camp for being insufficient explicit about the Brexit dangers. I, and many others, were at great pains to adumbrate the perils; perhaps we should have expressed ourselves with more clarity, but we cannot be accused of being irresponsibly silent. Moreover, Leave must not blame each other. Boris is in charge now. Leavers, you must look to him, give him the respect he is owed and follow his word as though it were canonical. He will waste not one waking second to try to do you proud, of that I am fairly certain.
I can understand the Remains being upset. They did after all repeat every scare story and attack line in slavish fashion despite the utter absurdity of most of it, over the course of months, only to endure ignominious defeat.
But have ANY of them, NorthWales aside, mentioned accepting the result getting on with it, making Britain a success? Nope. They're either still indulging in bitter recrimination, trying to find some comfort in the economic travails of the UK, or fantasising about constitutional chaos. Its very telling. These are the people that were telling us they were just as patriotic as Leavers and had Britain's interests at heart. I'm sure irl they are lovely people, kind to dogs etc., but politically they're simply repulsive.
Posted this early Friday morning... does this mean I'm not repulsive?
Well, not the result I wanted personally, but you can't deny the will of the people freely expressed... Britain must now harness all its talents and show that we can be a beacon for progressive capitalism... open our doors to the very brightest from around the world... cut business taxes and invest aggressively in the infrastructure to support entrepreneurs... redouble efforts to improve education and smash class barriers to potential... sharpen incentives to work but protect the less able... and above all get out there and sell our product, skills and knowledge in every corner of the world...
The first opinion polls (yes, I know!) after the referendum are going to be fascinating. The Conservatives are probably going to have lost a lot of support from horrified Remainers. Will they in compensation - or more than compensation - gain support from delighted non-Tory Leavers? Will UKIP's support go up or down?
The polls by matter are Scottish ones that Categorise remain and leave voters in respect to IndyRef.
@CD13 I accept the verdict of the British people. I think it's a disaster on multiple levels, but there should be no rerun of the referendum. Leavers should now be left to implement the decision. As ScottP says, you Brexit, you own it.
It will be morbidly fascinating to watch the unfolding drama.
The people implementing the decision will be the govt, the govt will be led by the person deemed most suitable by Conservative party members.
I know you'd like to imagine Farage and Sean T doing the negotiations but I'm afraid they won't be, it will be Conservative Cabinet members.
- Article 50.2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention.
Tuesday's European Council meeting, imagined: "So, Mr Cameron, has the UK decided to withdraw from the European Union?" "Ermm... I am not permitted to say"
It's actually a good point - how can Cameron at that meeting *not* notify the Council of the UK's intention??
Now who is going to take over as Tory leader and PM?
Single To Win Theresa May @ 33/1 Next Prime Minister post David Cameron
That sounds good Scott_P. I'll have a score at that price please. :-)
I'm on Osborne at 10/1. Not looking too good now.
Was it you and I who tipped Jack Straw at 50/1 to be next Labour leader when Brown first took over? I thought he might be the caretaker once Brown had been 'persuaded' to stand down.
Frank Booth. Been thinking about this. I may well have been a fellow traveller with this bet. It's certainly my kind of odds.
Currently I have two 1000 bets on Betfair. Ted Cruz to get the GOP nomination, (last price matched 120) and Gary Johnson to be POTUS (last price matched 380).Would make a nice double!
@DavidL As a unionist Leaver, what's your take on all the discussion about IndyRef2?
Made a couple of comments on this thread. Scotland cannot possibly go for independence until we have a viable economy and we just don't. This has been disguised by North Sea oil for quite some time but the underlying reality is now exposed and it is not good. Our financial services industry has not recovered from 2008 and has been drifting south since Sindy. Alliance Trust looks like another possible mover. The last thing we need is that trend being accelerated by threats of another referendum.
I am pretty sure Nicola gets this. She also gets that a significant part of her support does not and she needs to be seen to be doing something. Her hope has to be that the UK ends up with a deal that is sufficiently close to membership of the EU that Scotland would have completely unrestricted access to the rUK market in or out of the EU. That remains far from clear right now but it is certainly what our UK government should be working for.
David L. I think you live in Scotland and you were a Brexit supporter? Are you now advocating a deal that is close to membership of the EU? Or are you simply saying that that is what Sturgeon should hope for to placate her supporters.
As a Brexiteer how would you feel if the result leads to Scottish independence which Scotland can't afford?
For all the talk about scotland, 1.6 million voted YES and 1.6 million voted to Remain. The SNP cannot be sure they will get many extra votes from this.
Would like to know how many of the 'new' members are those who joined after the referendum but who subsequently allowed their membership to lapse.
The CFP would collapse without Scotland, with 30% of the EUs fishing waters in the Scottish EEZ. While not huge overall, it is very important to Spain. A CFP collapse might bring additional pressure on CAP reform - as I see things, Spain does not appear to benefit much from CAP (it would have a strong competitive advantage in a free Agricultural market) and its advantages in CFP are a sop to keep them happy.
Hows keeping the CFP in place beneficial to Scotland ? There is no chance of CAP reform unless France agrees it and with the UK gone where's the pressure ?
I don't know if I can answer all those questions. My impression is that Scotland would cut a deal on CFP but it would not be anywhere nearly as bad as the way the UK government threw the industry under the bus. There is likely to be some value to the EU in getting a reduced deal over access to Scotland's EEZ than no deal at all.
so youve naded your fishereies away to get what ?
UK is your biggest trading partner by quite some way. You dont really trade that much with the rest of EU and RoW is more important for industries like whiskey. The Scottish Finance sector can only wither under tight EU legislation.
Any chance of Edinburgh financial sector doing well at the expense of London if Scotland remains in EU?
How is Scotland going to withstand the Financial Transaction Tax? How are they going to influence G20 legislation like Basel? Why would people relocate to Edinburgh on the far north of the European continent when they could relocate to Paris or Frankfurt or Dublin instead? What happens when Scotland's in the Euro and there's another banking crash?
Leave need to conduct themselves with dignity over the coming weeks and months. It's only day 2 and already we're seeing u-turns on immigration and the very edifice of the United Kingdom teetering. Now is not the time to cast blame. Leave must not blame the Remain camp for being insufficient explicit about the Brexit dangers. I, and many others, were at great pains to adumbrate the perils; perhaps we should have expressed ourselves with more clarity, but we cannot be accused of being irresponsibly silent. Moreover, Leave must not blame each other. Boris is in charge now. Leavers, you must look to him, give him the respect he is owed and follow his word as though it were canonical. He will waste not one waking second to try to do you proud, of that I am fairly certain.
You talk some shit mate.
"Very edifice of the UK teetering"?
Really? It's the kind of ridiculous talk that lost you the referendum vote. People are fed up of being treated like they are stupid.
The fact that 42% of the Brexit vote were AB's is an example of how many intelligent people were put off by it.
For all the talk about scotland, 1.6 million voted YES and 1.6 million voted to Remain. The SNP cannot be sure they will get many extra votes from this.
Would like to know how many of the 'new' members are those who joined after the referendum but who subsequently allowed their membership to lapse.
The CFP would collapse without Scotland, with 30% of the EUs fishing waters in the Scottish EEZ. While not huge overall, it is very important to Spain. A CFP collapse might bring additional pressure on CAP reform - as I see things, Spain does not appear to benefit much from CAP (it would have a strong competitive advantage in a free Agricultural market) and its advantages in CFP are a sop to keep them happy.
Hows keeping the CFP in place beneficial to Scotland ? There is no chance of CAP reform unless France agrees it and with the UK gone where's the pressure ?
I don't know if I can answer all those questions. My impression is that Scotland would cut a deal on CFP but it would not be anywhere nearly as bad as the way the UK government threw the industry under the bus. There is likely to be some value to the EU in getting a reduced deal over access to Scotland's EEZ than no deal at all.
so youve naded your fishereies away to get what ?
UK is your biggest trading partner by quite some way. You dont really trade that much with the rest of EU and RoW is more important for industries like whiskey. The Scottish Finance sector can only wither under tight EU legislation.
Any chance of Edinburgh financial sector doing well at the expense of London if Scotland remains in EU?
How is Scotland going to withstand the Financial Transaction Tax? How are they going to influence G20 legislation like Basel? Why would people relocate to Edinburgh on the far north of the European continent when they could relocate to Paris or Frankfurt or Dublin instead? What happens when Scotland's in the Euro and there's another banking crash?
You have obviously never been to Edinburgh
I've been there plenty of times. But Dublin has plenty of offshore companies already and better tax rates, while Paris and Frankfurt are much closer to the seat of power at Brussels and have far better transport links to the rest of the continent than does Edinburgh. So why would companies relocate to Edinburgh? The SNP doesn't have an answer, but it's hoping you won't notice.
Comments
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The Leave coalition is quite a diverse one, lefty leavers were for Leave as a vote against globalization, centrist leavers supported Leave as a vote for democracy, right leavers supported Leave as a vote against mass immigration.
That's why you need to include in the negotiation Labour leavers and Farage in order to represent all the sides, and make sure that they sign the agreement so that no one moans afterwards.
The full benefits of Brexit will not happen until after we leave and are able to prune out the wasteful directives, and start managing our society to our own preferences. That will take a while to start, and even longer to bear fruit.
"Manfred Weber, who represents German Chancellor Angela Merkel's political party in the European parliament, said it was imperative to start negotiations with Britain soon about its departure, to ensure stability and avoid uncertainties.
"We want to negotiate a new relationship, not a nasty divorce," Weber told the Muencher Merkur newspaper. "My goal would be to wrap up the exit negotiations within about a year."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/germany-warns-against-eu-revenge-following-uk-brexit-vote/
I really like the Germans, if only they could listen before the event.
I believe Scotland has taken about a third of the refugees to the UK from the current crisis, so perhaps all we Scots can be said to have taken in more than our share of refugees to our home.
Tuesday's European Council meeting, imagined:
"So, Mr Cameron, has the UK decided to withdraw from the European Union?"
"Ermm... I am not permitted to say"
Well, not the result I wanted personally, but you can't deny the will of the people freely expressed... Britain must now harness all its talents and show that we can be a beacon for progressive capitalism... open our doors to the very brightest from around the world... cut business taxes and invest aggressively in the infrastructure to support entrepreneurs... redouble efforts to improve education and smash class barriers to potential... sharpen incentives to work but protect the less able... and above all get out there and sell our product, skills and knowledge in every corner of the world...
Currently I have two 1000 bets on Betfair. Ted Cruz to get the GOP nomination, (last price matched 120) and Gary Johnson to be POTUS (last price matched 380).Would make a nice double!
As a Brexiteer how would you feel if the result leads to Scottish independence which Scotland can't afford?
"Very edifice of the UK teetering"?
Really? It's the kind of ridiculous talk that lost you the referendum vote. People are fed up of being treated like they are stupid.
The fact that 42% of the Brexit vote were AB's is an example of how many intelligent people were put off by it.