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Right, chaps, time for supper. Night, everyone.0
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A lot of it still happens though. Most people's pensions are in equities.Charles said:
Margins are a fraction of a penny in some cases (surprised the euro denominated cash equity trading volumes numbers are that high but thats not a number I track)TOPPING said:
Still not sure what that meansCharles said:
There's no money in trading cash equities.TOPPING said:
What is the proportion of funds under management for hedge funds and institutional asset managers?MaxPB said:
Prime brokerages, they will self clear securities trades.TOPPING said:
First, what does a synthetic clearing house mean? Second, it regulates us when we trade european stocks.
And what? Stock trades are bread and butter. It's derivatives trading that matters, I struggle to see how the City would continue to come under EU regulations, then again I'm not in regulations, yet the experts in our reports specifically outlined how being outside of EU regulations for derivatives would be a net gain for the City, again a reason why the Hedge funds back Leave.
What do you mean "stock trades are bread and butter"?
Europe trading = approx EUR70bn/day.
given the high fixed cost of a cash equity desk and the trend towards electronic trading it's brutally competitive and chronically unprofitable unless you are really big in a specific product.0 -
Actually it isn't any worse than the hatred of the left to anything that isn't left. Witness for example the threats of violence and rape directed at Conservative party conference delegates as well as taunts, spitting etc and police telling delegates they can't wear their conference ID outside as that would cause a disturbance. Or indeed momentum rocking up outside Stella Creasy's house...Scott_P said:
We can have direct democracy. Our experience of it is division, hatred and violence, with no resolution of the question.Pauly said:Democracy is a bad idea? We can have BOTH direct and representative democracy. Very many of the arguments against one form often apply to the other.
I will be happy with less of that.
You may think this is bad, but it is actually normal in a lot of places. It may change but I doubt it as the left never admit that they are in fact a nasty bunch of fascist scum.0 -
The YouGov/GMB poll's fieldwork was Wednesday and Thursday0
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Many of the readership must be fuming.Scott_P said:@tag_freeman: Double-page editorial in tomorrow's Mail on Sunday: "For a safer, freer, more prosperous & even greater Britain, we urge you to vote Remain"
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Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.HYUFD said:
Democracy by its very nature lets the voters decide so whatever they conclude goesTheScreamingEagles said:
- W. L. S. Churchill in the House of Commons (11 November 1947)-1 -
Nationalise the private schools!TheScreamingEagles said:
Indeed, I want all children to have the opportunities I had, I just wish I knew how.MaxPB said:
Sacrifices they were able to make, how does that translate to a single earner family with two children on a bookkeepers hourly wage? Grammar school gave me (and my sister) a chance of the education you received that my parents would never have been able to afford whatever sacrifices they made.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've said many times, the reason I've done so well out of life was my parents (and grandparents) made a lot of sacrifices so I could attend a private school.
It was only later in life I appreciated my luck.
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It was also an irrelevant anecdote because it didn't reference a meaningful sample: a Leave voter just finding another reason to vote leave. One also has to question which way round the logic really ran between her post-hoc voting 'intention' and her rationalisation of the reaction to the death.Lowlander said:
Again, I posted because I had a surprising experience which may reflect wider public opinions and might have an impact on an election which people are trying to predict and who have money staked on the outcome.tyson said:
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
If you don't like the real world, perhaps it would be better not to expose yourself to real world opinions and find a Safe Space to spend your time in where rainbow lollipops drop from the sky and rivers of lemonade can be sailed in chocolate boats.0 -
The latter perhaps, I can't see the formerSunil_Prasannan said:
He will now claim he's "working class Northerner!"HYUFD said:
TSE was educated privately I believe, the privately educated are often amongst the most staunch supporters of comprehensive as it reduces the competitionKentRising said:
Which is why so many people move to Kent and Bucks and over counties that still have the grammar system in order to have the opportunity for their kids to go to grammars. Grammars - loved by parents, hated by the ideologues, including the elite who send their own kids to private schools.TheScreamingEagles said:
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.BenedictWhite said:
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?HYUFD said:
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!Lowlander said:
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she istyson said:
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.0 -
Not at the moment.Pulpstar said:
Are you laying it ?TheScreamingEagles said:Betfair, Leave at 3 again
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Have a good one! Night!Morris_Dancer said:Right, chaps, time for supper. Night, everyone.
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It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?SeanT said:
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?glw said:
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.KentRising said:As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.0 -
Move to Ireland?PrinceofTaranto said:
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?SeanT said:
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?glw said:
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.KentRising said:As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
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MovePrinceofTaranto said:It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
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Well, he can always blame the Government instead ... after all he'll probably be Chancellor of the Exchequer in a few weeks time!TheScreamingEagles said:Well Gove's just put enormous hostage to fortune in the event of Brexit
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/7442708193842462720 -
Interesting. So mostly preceeding the murder.TheScreamingEagles said:The YouGov/GMB poll's fieldwork was Wednesday and Thursday
Any swing seems to be from other factors.0 -
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
Or put it this way, I think it is considerably more likely we will eventually leave rather than the EU will reform to an extent that would make us content.
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And yet you want to remain? The pain you are going to inflict on this country is going to be far worse than anything you might imagine from Leaving now.HYUFD said:
It is what I always felt would happen thoughRichard_Tyndall said:
So we will continue to sit on the margins with our power and sovereignty seeping away as the Eurozone dominates the EU, subject to all the rules but with no control over them. It is a bleak vision you paint of our future.HYUFD said:
Unless we join the eurozone we will never be in the Superstate and the only chance of that is a big Remain win, even on tonight's poll probably gone now as a possibilityGIN1138 said:
A decisive win for REMAIN would be better than a small one.TheScreamingEagles said:I'm still sticking with my prediction of Remain to win by 12%-15%
Would seal our fate forever in the Superstate and we could all begin the process of coming to terms with it (rather than trying to resist the inevitable)0 -
So that YouGov would imply movement back to Remain even before the tragic events in Batley0
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No really a surprise. The MoS has been pro-REMAIN all through the campaign.Tykejohnno said:
Many of the readership must be fuming.Scott_P said:@tag_freeman: Double-page editorial in tomorrow's Mail on Sunday: "For a safer, freer, more prosperous & even greater Britain, we urge you to vote Remain"
The Daily Mail will come out for LEAVE of course...0 -
I'll drink to that! And I went to one!!MaxPB said:
Nationalise the private schools!TheScreamingEagles said:
Indeed, I want all children to have the opportunities I had, I just wish I knew how.MaxPB said:
Sacrifices they were able to make, how does that translate to a single earner family with two children on a bookkeepers hourly wage? Grammar school gave me (and my sister) a chance of the education you received that my parents would never have been able to afford whatever sacrifices they made.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've said many times, the reason I've done so well out of life was my parents (and grandparents) made a lot of sacrifices so I could attend a private school.
It was only later in life I appreciated my luck.0 -
Churchill as sensible as everSunil_Prasannan said:
Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.HYUFD said:
Democracy by its very nature lets the voters decide so whatever they conclude goesTheScreamingEagles said:
- W. L. S. Churchill in the House of Commons (11 November 1947)0 -
No, because something else might.TheScreamingEagles said:Well Gove's just put enormous hostage to fortune in the event of Brexit
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/7442708193842462720 -
I'm a Northerner, I work, I have class.HYUFD said:
The latter perhaps, I can't see the formerSunil_Prasannan said:
He will now claim he's "working class Northerner!"HYUFD said:
TSE was educated privately I believe, the privately educated are often amongst the most staunch supporters of comprehensive as it reduces the competitionKentRising said:
Which is why so many people move to Kent and Bucks and over counties that still have the grammar system in order to have the opportunity for their kids to go to grammars. Grammars - loved by parents, hated by the ideologues, including the elite who send their own kids to private schools.TheScreamingEagles said:
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.BenedictWhite said:
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?HYUFD said:
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!Lowlander said:
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she istyson said:
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Ergo, I'm a working class northerner0 -
You can't if remain wins unless you vote UKIP to get into power,the 3 other main parties want mass immigration.PrinceofTaranto said:
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?SeanT said:
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?glw said:
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.KentRising said:As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.0 -
Plenty of people on here post anecdotes.david_herdson said:
It was also an irrelevant anecdote because it didn't reference a meaningful sample: a Leave voter just finding another reason to vote leave. One also has to question which way round the logic really ran between her post-hoc voting 'intention' and her rationalisation of the reaction to the death.Lowlander said:
Again, I posted because I had a surprising experience which may reflect wider public opinions and might have an impact on an election which people are trying to predict and who have money staked on the outcome.tyson said:
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
If you don't like the real world, perhaps it would be better not to expose yourself to real world opinions and find a Safe Space to spend your time in where rainbow lollipops drop from the sky and rivers of lemonade can be sailed in chocolate boats.0 -
I'm afraid you are right.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Gin, Rome's everlasting success was once deemed inevitable.
The EU's going to fall. It's a question of when. The longer it is, the more things will have integrated, and the worse the impact will be. Right now, it'd lead to economic problems and perhaps civil strife.
In a decade or two, we could be looking at small scale military action.
A decade or two after that...
A vote to Remain for fear of the probable short term pain is a vote to embrace the agony of later years. I suspect it'll happen in my lifetime.0 -
Personally he seems likeable enough off the pitch, on the pitch he is arrogance personified but then normally it is merited!AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
If my Twitter feed is anything to go by, this has temporarily healed our divided nation. Every single post reads HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. (Miss?) QC, I think laughing at Ronaldo is something around which the site can unite
I really hate Cristiano Ronaldo. Come on the Hungarians.0 -
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
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Cheers.TheScreamingEagles said:
David, I've replied to your emaildavid_herdson said:
It's not as, absent the murder, the result was going to be decided on a sober and detailed assessment of the respective merits of the case.CornishBlue said:
It says more about the current state of mind in the West rather than the age-old virtues of democracy.TheScreamingEagles said:
We are in trouble. And it's not democracy that's the problem.0 -
And finally goodnight from me, a night in Zurich awaits.0
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May be a reaction to the previous polls. For the first time it sunk in that we are probably going out and it is not a game anymoreTheScreamingEagles said:So that YouGov would imply movement back to Remain even before the tragic events in Batley
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Which is why the poison won't go away after Thursday because this is the only answer you have .Scott_P said:
MovePrinceofTaranto said:It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?
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We will never join the eurozone, 90% of the public oppose entry, even I would vote UKIP if the Tories or Labour proposed it!GIN1138 said:
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.glw said:
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.SeanT said:It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.0 -
As hopefully a semi humorous Saturday night post given we all need it.....
On Thursday and Friday my Mrs was really distraught around the Jo Cox murder as I suspect most people were and was questioning whether she would/could vote leave as it felt somehow wrong.
Tonight her comment to me was that if she got even a hint that I was voting remain I would be in the spare bedroom for a while! This doesn't mean she is any less upset about Jo just that she has reverted back to where she was previously!.
My point is people's views move on ever more rapidly in this day and age and not sure I would conclude anything based on polling on Friday, Saturday or indeed Sunday given the traumatic nature of the horrible event on Thursday.
I am for leave so that's ok with her although for the reasons many have articulated since I work in the city I have in passing told my boss I am voting remain to keep him off my back.
If people want a good example of waste of space EU regulation try Solvency 2 for Insurers. It has cost the UK insurance industry £5bn and we still don't have European wide consistency as everyone still interprets it their own way. Although at least I don't have all the regulations the securities lending guys have to deal with0 -
Yes I always thought the undecideds leaned Remain anywayalex. said:
I would speculate (always the way to go on this site) that people making their mind up for Remain on the basis of the murder, will be largely using it as a way of a justification of a vote they really wanted to make anyway. If someone really wanted to vote Leave, it isn't difficult to come up with a different rationale, even within the context of the murder.HYUFD said:
Democracy by its very nature lets the voters decide so whatever they conclude goesTheScreamingEagles said:0 -
In which case they need to be destroyed as a party. A case of voting for anyone but the Tories in 2020 to make sure they pay for what they have done.GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
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Well exactly. People wailing that this might, might be a deciding factor, are being rather selective at when to be upset at how people determine their votes.david_herdson said:
It's not as, absent the murder, the result was going to be decided on a sober and detailed assessment of the respective merits of the case.CornishBlue said:
It says more about the current state of mind in the West rather than the age-old virtues of democracy.TheScreamingEagles said:
We are in trouble. And it's not democracy that's the problem.0 -
His comments about Iceland after the first game weren't exactly nice.HYUFD said:
Personally he seems likeable enough off the pitch, on the pitch he is arrogance personified but then normally it is merited!AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
If my Twitter feed is anything to go by, this has temporarily healed our divided nation. Every single post reads HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. (Miss?) QC, I think laughing at Ronaldo is something around which the site can unite
I really hate Cristiano Ronaldo. Come on the Hungarians.0 -
Yes grammars offered/offer subjects normally confined to private schoolstyson said:
I went to a grammar school and my six form Latin class mate was Graham Brady- he was a year older than me, but they combined classes since there was only 3 of us...HYUFD said:
Jo Cox went to one in the late eighties and nineties so there are still a few aroundBenedictWhite said:
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?HYUFD said:
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!Lowlander said:
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she is representative of middle Scotland to whom someone like Jo Cox does not relate well. In her words Cox "never did a days work in her life", working for Oxfam who she believes is a wealth creation scheme for those who work there (and its hard to argue it is not). She may or may not be right about this but those are her views and I suspect views that a lot of people share about the political elite, especially those on the Labour side who are increasingly completely unrepresentative of Labour voters or members (hence their shock and Corbyn's counter-coup.tyson said:
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.0 -
I tell you- I can already feel the sore loser narrative welling up. There is a referendum next week. If remain wins, they have won. Simple as- they have won because more people voted for it.
This will be the last referendum in the UK of any significance for a generation. No major party will touch it. If people want out, they will have to vote UKIP, or hope that they can take control of the leadership of the Tory party.0 -
Yep.GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
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Offering a referendum on our membership on the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
In which case they need to be destroyed as a party. A case of voting for anyone but the Tories in 2020 to make sure they pay for what they have done.GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
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Bang goes 20% of the readership.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
"But it's not who you are underneath. It's what you do that defines you!"TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm a Northerner, I work, I have class.HYUFD said:
The latter perhaps, I can't see the formerSunil_Prasannan said:
He will now claim he's "working class Northerner!"HYUFD said:
TSE was educated privately I believe, the privately educated are often amongst the most staunch supporters of comprehensive as it reduces the competitionKentRising said:
Which is why so many people move to Kent and Bucks and over counties that still have the grammar system in order to have the opportunity for their kids to go to grammars. Grammars - loved by parents, hated by the ideologues, including the elite who send their own kids to private schools.TheScreamingEagles said:
Margaret Thatcher realised they didn't help, so she abolished or merged many of them and put comprehensives in their place.BenedictWhite said:
Ah grammar schools! The way for the working classes to better themselves... What ever happened to them?HYUFD said:
Jo Cox came from a working class background and got herself to grammar school and Cambridge and spent part of her summers working in a factory to pay for her studies so your mum was wrong on her prejudices anyway!Lowlander said:
She is neither vile nor unpleasant. But she istyson said:
Your mum strikes me as a particularly vile and unpleasant person.
How could she have contempt for Jo Cox? She was horribly and brutally murdered by a man who repeatedly kicked her and stabbed her as he shot her and she was dying. She has two young children that will never know their mother. In her last months she was abused, intimidated and harassed simply because she was compassionate about asylum seekers.
I have seen some disgusting posts on this site....but I think yours has just won the trophy. You know something...your post has really quite upset me. I hope it is taken off this site. There is no place for this kind of comment here.
You were warned the post was not a Safe Space. It was your choice to read on. but if you insist on blocking out any view that you do not agree with or any report of the wider world beyond your rose tinted glasses, then you are utterly typical of the liberal left who think sweeping issues under the carpet deals with those issues when it clear does not.
Ergo, I'm a working class northerner
- Rachel Dawes and Batman in "Batman Begins" (2005).0 -
UKIP it is thenTykejohnno said:
You can't if remain wins unless you vote UKIP to get into power,the 3 other main parties want mass immigration.PrinceofTaranto said:
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?SeanT said:
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?glw said:
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.KentRising said:As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.0 -
Private schools offer bursaries and scholarships but they will always mainly be to only a minority of pupilsTheScreamingEagles said:
Indeed, I want all children to have the opportunities I had, I just wish I knew how.MaxPB said:
Sacrifices they were able to make, how does that translate to a single earner family with two children on a bookkeepers hourly wage? Grammar school gave me (and my sister) a chance of the education you received that my parents would never have been able to afford whatever sacrifices they made.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've said many times, the reason I've done so well out of life was my parents (and grandparents) made a lot of sacrifices so I could attend a private school.
It was only later in life I appreciated my luck.0 -
Jo Cox's murder is closer to home, but it struck me today how little the Pulse nightclub has featured in the news over the last few days, and that wasn't even a week ago. Now obviously the murder of Cox has dominated the news here, but stories related to Pulse have really dried up even taking that into account. The worst shooting in recent US history and it barely got 5 days of news coverage. EgyptAir 804, which was only a month ago, hasn't been getting much interest either, with only some cursory reporting of the recent locating. News moves on fast if there aren't any "exciting" developments.Senga said:My point is people's views move on ever more rapidly in this day and age and not sure I would conclude anything based on polling on Friday, Saturday or indeed Sunday given the traumatic nature of the horrible event on Thursday.
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No. Continuing with their Europhile ways. Basically they become part of the problem that needs to be removed before we get free.alex. said:
Offering a referendum on our membership on the EU?Richard_Tyndall said:
In which case they need to be destroyed as a party. A case of voting for anyone but the Tories in 2020 to make sure they pay for what they have done.GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
Of course this assumes we vote Remain on Thursday.0 -
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in? And are you suggesting that Labour didn't do anything to that end between 1997 and 2010?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
The world has changed a great deal since 1983.
I doubt that in the event of a Remain, the Conservatives will advocate Leave in 2020 for the same reason that the SNP are wary of SIndyRef2, but that is the direction of travel at the moment and is likely to remain so for some years yet.0 -
No, it was a joke.PrinceofTaranto said:this is the only answer you have .
The honest answer is, why would you care? Different countries round the World have different numbers of people in them.
I can't honestly say I find living in the UK now any different than I did 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, but again, I am not competing with low cost labour for my job, and I don't have to queue behind immigrants at A&E if I have a cough.
If the population increases (and again, immigration is tied to economic growth; it was zero in 2008) then we need more schools'n'hospitals, but hey, we do have more schools'n'hospitals than we did in the past.
We need more houses. I have never seen more building sites round me than I see now. Thousands of new houses.
There is a theoretical limit to the number of people who could fit on an island, but I don't see any reason why that number is magically 65 million and not 1 more. YMMV0 -
Go and move to Scotland.PrinceofTaranto said:
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?SeanT said:
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?glw said:
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.KentRising said:As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
0 -
HYUFD said:
We will never join the eurozone, 90% of the public oppose entry,GIN1138 said:
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.glw said:
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.SeanT said:It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
Heseltine said just a year ago that it ***WILL*** happen... That's end game for the Establishment. And they always get what they want in the end....0 -
Again though that was basically about the match where his arrogance is pronouncedThreeQuidder said:
His comments about Iceland after the first game weren't exactly nice.HYUFD said:
Personally he seems likeable enough off the pitch, on the pitch he is arrogance personified but then normally it is merited!AramintaMoonbeamQC said:
If my Twitter feed is anything to go by, this has temporarily healed our divided nation. Every single post reads HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. (Miss?) QC, I think laughing at Ronaldo is something around which the site can unite
I really hate Cristiano Ronaldo. Come on the Hungarians.0 -
Lords of Poverty is indeed a good book. I have read it and lent it out.foxinsoxuk said:
I think that there is a legitimate critique of the aid and NGO sector in development, and the seminal work "Lords of Poverty" is a book that should be read by all in the field. There are other more recent works too.tyson said:
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.SeanT said:
A fair point. I had just watched the tv coverage of Jo cox's sister making that fine speech, so maybe I was being oversensitive. Unusual for me.
Also as I'm in Italy I'm not getting the apparently annoying 24/7 Diana stuff, at all.
It's all very sad. Whatever one's opinions. Whoever wins now, their victory will be tainted. And undermined my suspicion. And so this issue won't go away, AT ALL
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
Nonetheless Jo Cox seems to have worked in Brussels lobbying the EU for more favourable trade arrangements with developing countries, and in New York campaigning for humanitarian aid in warzones to help refugees stay in protected zones locally. Both highly laudable, and indeed advocated by several Leavers on this site in discussions the other day.
I also note that she voted for Liz Kendall in the leadership election.
On the subject of better trade deals for developing countries, I am all in favour on both moral and practical grounds.
In terms if international matters there is in fact much I support of Jo Cox's work. I disagree on the issue of the EU and I also disagree with people turning up simply to counter demonstrate at someone else's political rally.
Her murder is a tragedy, there is no doubt. It should however not move the vote and would be a shame if it did. There are nasty and nice people on both sides of this referendum.0 -
Jezza all the way for me!Richard_Tyndall said:
In which case they need to be destroyed as a party. A case of voting for anyone but the Tories in 2020 to make sure they pay for what they have done.GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
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Is the next poll out at 1am?0
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Yep. They signed us back into most of the EU Police and Criminal Justice Measures.david_herdson said:
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in? And are you suggesting that Labour didn't do anything to that end between 1997 and 2010?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
The world has changed a great deal since 1983.
I doubt that in the event of a Remain, the Conservatives will advocate Leave in 2020 for the same reason that the SNP are wary of SIndyRef2, but that is the direction of travel at the moment and is likely to remain so for some years yet.
0 -
Do you mean they will stop reading it or that they will literally explode?Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Bang goes 20% of the readership.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Yes. Right now. They are locking us in to an entirely unreformed, soon to be European superstate...david_herdson said:
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
0 -
England play Monday.
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Grammar schools? Or schools with expectations? Schools that remove difficult children perhaps that then get the proper education elsewhere? Who knows. What we have now seems somewhat imperfect.TheScreamingEagles said:
Indeed, I want all children to have the opportunities I had, I just wish I knew how.MaxPB said:
Sacrifices they were able to make, how does that translate to a single earner family with two children on a bookkeepers hourly wage? Grammar school gave me (and my sister) a chance of the education you received that my parents would never have been able to afford whatever sacrifices they made.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've said many times, the reason I've done so well out of life was my parents (and grandparents) made a lot of sacrifices so I could attend a private school.
It was only later in life I appreciated my luck.0 -
It's still on the news ?!0
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If that is what it takes then yes.GIN1138 said:
Jezza all the way for me!Richard_Tyndall said:
In which case they need to be destroyed as a party. A case of voting for anyone but the Tories in 2020 to make sure they pay for what they have done.GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
0 -
If you're like me and know very little about wine, you'll do a lot worse than a £10-£15 of Spanish red. Generally good standard and some intetesting variety between different areas. This evening I started with a Costers del Segre from my old stomping ground in Catalonia. Have now moved on to a Chivite from Navarra. All very tasty. I should have done this last night.0
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Hello all.
Thanks for all the nice comments on my header earlier.
Off to finish packing.
I need this holiday. I have been ill with asthma and bronchitis and associated lurgies on and off since the end of April. If the Mediterranean, Italian sunshine and Italian food don't cure that, I don't know what will.0 -
Sunday Times you gov is remain +10
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Sunday TImes YouGov poll
Remain 44 (+2)
Leave 43 (-1)
Fieldwork Thursday and Friday0 -
Wow. I know we were talking about Murdoch hedging his bets but that is actually a surprise for me.I knew there was a split between the Mail and MoS because of vendettas but am surprised that there is a split between the Times and Sunday Times.Scott_P said:0 -
Incidentally, can anyone think of a time so much hate, venom, energy and dishonesty was spilled over something so irrelevant as whether we leave the EU in two years or stay until it collapses in four years?
Edward Gibbons' caricature of the fall of the Roman Empire was at least a work of fiction. This is for real!0 -
Aggreed, if it hadn't been this murder they would have found another moral reason to justify there decision. There just silly people socks and sandals brigade.HYUFD said:
Yes I always thought the undecideds leaned Remain anywayalex. said:
I would speculate (always the way to go on this site) that people making their mind up for Remain on the basis of the murder, will be largely using it as a way of a justification of a vote they really wanted to make anyway. If someone really wanted to vote Leave, it isn't difficult to come up with a different rationale, even within the context of the murder.HYUFD said:
Democracy by its very nature lets the voters decide so whatever they conclude goesTheScreamingEagles said:
Although I wouldn't say all undecided are these tossers. Many wont vote at all. And some will go leave.
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Harry Cole
So no change in tone from PM. Truce cancelled with personal attack on BoGo. What is it with No10 and car analogies? https://t.co/yszjTXLMfq0 -
This is more related to the previous thread, but there should still be plenty of scope for the UK to change their general approach to the EU which has been a major contributory factor in what has happened in the EU over the last 25 years. Whatever stuff one wants to believe about the "unelected bureaucrats" in Brussels, there is ample evidence that the UK can find natural allies over a whole host of issues (including immigration) amongst the leadership of other EU members.
Except we barely even try because we are so obsessed with the idea that the whole thing is an anti British conspiracy, and for domestic political consumption it is easier to remain in glorious (yet defeated) isolation than actually put in the hard yards to make the whole thing work for us and in line with our national interests.
A remain vote would represent one final opportunity to actually change that approach (accepting it is more difficult with the Euro/Schengen etc) but I don't believe impossible. It is probable that our political system doesn't make things easy because our more adversarial politics than most of the rest of the EU makes it harder to advocate a clear and consistent (over time) "UK position" on the major issues affecting Europe with the constant suspicion that the priorities swing 180 degrees as left and right wing parties are in the ascendant (one doesn't get the impression that this is such an issue in other countries - most manage to maintain better consistency in external dealings, whatever their domestic differences).0 -
This BBC news report is utterly beyond the pale.0
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Why should he have to move,it's politicians and leftwing nutjobs who will be making this country overcrowded and Quality of life shit,especially for the poor end.tyson said:
Go and move to Scotland.PrinceofTaranto said:
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?SeanT said:
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?glw said:
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.KentRising said:As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.0 -
Obviously they still fear the BoJo factor.PlatoSaid said:Harry Cole
So no change in tone from PM. Truce cancelled with personal attack on BoGo. What is it with No10 and car analogies? https://t.co/yszjTXLMfq0 -
Good on the ST!Scott_P said:0 -
MOE.TheScreamingEagles said:Sunday TImes YouGov poll
Remain 44 (+2)
Leave 43 (-1)
Fieldwork Thursday and Friday0 -
I was suggesting a country with fewer people. He seemed to want to some advice. Of course there is Greenland too.Tykejohnno said:
Why should he have to move,it's politicians and leftwing nutjobs who will be making this country overcrowded and Quality of life shit,especially for the poor end.tyson said:
Go and move to Scotland.PrinceofTaranto said:
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?SeanT said:
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?glw said:
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.KentRising said:As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
0 -
The polls show a small swing towards Remain. Still way too close to call though...0
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Actually if I go several people will lose their jobs alsoTykejohnno said:
Why should he have to move,it's politicians and leftwing nutjobs who will be making this country overcrowded and Quality of life shit,especially for the poor end.tyson said:
Go and move to Scotland.PrinceofTaranto said:
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?SeanT said:
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?glw said:
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.KentRising said:As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.0 -
Yougov basically calling a tie.0
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Nice Ethnic cleansing ?tyson said:
I was suggesting a country with fewer people. He seemed to want to some advice. Of course there is Greenland too.Tykejohnno said:
Why should he have to move,it's politicians and leftwing nutjobs who will be making this country overcrowded and Quality of life shit,especially for the poor end.tyson said:
Go and move to Scotland.PrinceofTaranto said:
It was me and what I was saying is that I do not want to live in a country with a population of 80 million nor do my children. So how do I stop it?SeanT said:
I can't remember who it was (sorry) but a pb-ear earlier on said, If REMAIN wins, what will the various parties do about immigration?glw said:
One thing I'm certain of is that if Remain win, which looks likely, it will not be business as usual. The rift has opened, much like in Scotland with independence, and our EU membership will be a bigger issue in future than it has been in the past. Cameron has not achieved any meaningful reform, his party is split in two, about half the public want out, many troubling EU issues will be back on the table after the referendum, and many within the EU will interpret a Remain vote as a vote for more Europe.KentRising said:As I forecast, the slender Leave lead has gone. And Leave needed a big lead going into Thursday. It's over, I can see a convincing Remain victory which will get Can and co off scott-free and it'll be business as usual going forward. Thanks to the nut with his homemade gun.
I think our leaving the EU is more a matter of when now than if.
It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.0 -
They won't propose it, they will just do it.HYUFD said:
We will never join the eurozone, 90% of the public oppose entry, even I would vote UKIP if the Tories or Labour proposed it!GIN1138 said:
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.glw said:
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.SeanT said:It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.0 -
Is a 4% swing from last weekkle4 said:
MOE.TheScreamingEagles said:Sunday TImes YouGov poll
Remain 44 (+2)
Leave 43 (-1)
Fieldwork Thursday and Friday0 -
did they not try that in 1997?alex. said:This is more related to the previous thread, but there should still be plenty of scope for the UK to change their general approach to the EU which has been a major contributory factor in what has happened in the EU over the last 25 years. Whatever stuff one wants to believe about the "unelected bureaucrats" in Brussels, there is ample evidence that the UK can find natural allies over a whole host of issues (including immigration) amongst the leadership of other EU members.
Except we barely even try because we are so obsessed with the idea that the whole thing is an anti British conspiracy, and for domestic political consumption it is easier to remain in glorious (yet defeated) isolation than actually put in the hard yards to make the whole thing work for us and in line with our national interests.
A remain vote would represent one final opportunity to actually change that approach (accepting it is more difficult with the Euro/Schengen etc) but I don't believe impossible. It is probable that our political system doesn't make things easy because our more adversarial politics than most of the rest of the EU makes it harder to advocate a clear and consistent (over time) "UK position" on the major issues affecting Europe with the constant suspicion that the priorities swing 180 degrees as left and right wing parties are in the ascendant (one doesn't get the impression that this is such an issue in other countries - most manage to maintain better consistency in external dealings, whatever their domestic differences).0 -
Hold a rigged referendum to "dock" us to the EU permanently.david_herdson said:
Can you name anything that the government has done since 2010 that has taken us 'further and faster' in?GIN1138 said:
You think the Conservatives would ever do that? They are the Party that took us in. And the Party that will now lock into this thing forever... Out of everyone the Tories are THE pro-EU party. They wriggle and wriggle but when push comes to shove, it's always Tory governments that take us "further and faster"...glw said:
I don't expect another referendum either, but I can see the Conservatives becoming an explicitly anti-EU party and them putting leaving (with some sort of associate/EEA/whatever) in a manifesto.GIN1138 said:Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.
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I have never read it, despite having a mini-library of Graham Hancock's other works.BenedictWhite said:
Lords of Poverty is indeed a good book. I have read it and lent it out.foxinsoxuk said:
I think that there is a legitimate critique of the aid and NGO sector in development, and the seminal work "Lords of Poverty" is a book that should be read by all in the field. There are other more recent works too.tyson said:
Don't back track on this one seanT. Lowlander's comments were utterly vile, and something that should not have been aired. Not because I don't believe own free speech, but because it is just upsetting for someone to say that they could hold Jo Cox in contempt after she has been brutally killed.SeanT said:
A fair point. I had just watched the tv coverage of Jo cox's sister making that fine speech, so maybe I was being oversensitive. Unusual for me.
Also as I'm in Italy I'm not getting the apparently annoying 24/7 Diana stuff, at all.
It's all very sad. Whatever one's opinions. Whoever wins now, their victory will be tainted. And undermined my suspicion. And so this issue won't go away, AT ALL
The fact that it drew some of the usual characters out of the ether- Plato, MikeM, etc.... just made it worse.
Nonetheless Jo Cox seems to have worked in Brussels lobbying the EU for more favourable trade arrangements with developing countries, and in New York campaigning for humanitarian aid in warzones to help refugees stay in protected zones locally. Both highly laudable, and indeed advocated by several Leavers on this site in discussions the other day.
I also note that she voted for Liz Kendall in the leadership election.0 -
If you're following twitter you'll notice OGH is having a nice meal in chez Boris, the best restaurant in Montpellier.SouthamObserver said:If you're like me and know very little about wine, you'll do a lot worse than a £10-£15 of Spanish red. Generally good standard and some intetesting variety between different areas. This evening I started with a Costers del Segre from my old stomping ground in Catalonia. Have now moved on to a Chivite from Navarra. All very tasty. I should have done this last night.
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Then UKIP will win a landslide!AnneJGP said:
They won't propose it, they will just do it.HYUFD said:
We will never join the eurozone, 90% of the public oppose entry, even I would vote UKIP if the Tories or Labour proposed it!GIN1138 said:
Nobody will want to go through the trauma of another referendum though. Most people will want to put this strange summer out of their minds I think.glw said:
Yes. Winning with real EU reform and and solution to the immigration "problem" would be entirely different from winning with none of that.SeanT said:It's an unanswerable question. The country will not stand for permanent immigration at net 200,000-400,000 a year, or whatever. And if we stay in Europe that kind of migration will continue.
So the whole debate is going to get MORE poisonous.
UKIP will prosper. Tories will bicker. Labour could potentially disintegrate.
Cameron has achieved no meaningful reform of the EU, and has no solution to limiting immigration within the EU. Next Friday all our EU problems will still exist, about half the country are mad as hell about the EU, and I would say that at least half of the Remainers have cold feet about the EU. Does anyone really think these issues will evaporate soon?
Course, there will (hopefully) be a significant shift from the Tories so that Cameron and Osborne are forced out (and UKIP will continue but will evolve as a post independence party) but I don't see another referendum in my lifetime (30-40 years) and that includes when we join the Euro.0 -
Midterm will not arrive until start of 2017. Comres Online regularly produces the biggest Tory leads . Mori put it at 1% this week . Tooting saw a much better Labour result than implied by any of the polls.ThreeQuidder said:
It's midterm, duh.HYUFD said:
Yet Labour have cut the Tories lead from 7% at the general election to 5% now as the Tories have lost even more voters to UKIP than LabourWulfrun_Phil said:Re Westminster VI, I am not at all surprised that Labour is sub 30% in the context of its stance on the referendum vote.
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Given the performance of the polls in the general election and the Sindy, it is clear that they cannot measure a 4 per cent swing.TheScreamingEagles said:
Is a 4% swing from last weekkle4 said:
MOE.TheScreamingEagles said:Sunday TImes YouGov poll
Remain 44 (+2)
Leave 43 (-1)
Fieldwork Thursday and Friday
If you measuring device is in error by 5 per cent (the Sindy), then you cannot detect 4 per cent swings.0 -
1.5TheScreamingEagles said:
Is a 4% swing from last weekkle4 said:
MOE.TheScreamingEagles said:Sunday TImes YouGov poll
Remain 44 (+2)
Leave 43 (-1)
Fieldwork Thursday and Friday
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