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To overshadow Boris Johnson in a TV debate, is an achievement very few have managed. For that alone she should be worth backing. Her pre political career is something that will appeal to many, especially if the country wants someone who isn’t considered to be a career politician.
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Comments
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First! I thought all three Leavers were excellent last night. Boris's presence was very useful as it lured the Remainers into attacking him personally.0
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Second like REMAIN!0
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Thanks Mike, I'm on .... modestly.0
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"Leadsom for Leave", could be the slogan of the last fortnight of battle.
Oh...... and good morning all.0 -
FPT Basildon, it looks like Leave will win a thumping majority in that area - but then, they need to.0
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bloody hell. still 2 weeks left? I need a holiday!MikeK said:"Leadsom for Leave", could be the slogan of the last fortnight of battle.
Oh...... and good morning all.0 -
So pleased I backed her at 40/1 on Paddy Power last night.
I agree. I had two texts from friends (still on the fence) last night saying how impressed they were with her.0 -
Maggie without the self doubt?
Maggie was for Remain, implemented the single market and was keen to expand into eastern Europe.
Andrea could learn from her.0 -
:Yawn:0
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Who did the briefing to them on tactics? Craig Oliver? Roland? Will Straw? Osborne?tlg86 said:First! I thought all three Leavers were excellent last night. Boris's presence was very useful as it lured the Remainers into attacking him personally.
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Andrea Leadsom was greatly aided by appearing as part of a well-prepared team. A part which Boris also played surprisingly well, for somebody who is supposed to be all about me-me-me. If Leave win this, Boris will be the guy who gets the laurels, the plaudits, the glory from the media. It will be Boris What Won It.
And from last night's debate at least, you would think it was Leave that was the slick, professional, well resourced operation, and Remain the disparate rag-bag of misfiring shreiky folk. Whoever put those three forward should be fired from Remain's operation. Even on paper they would have looked wrong for an am-dram production of Macbeth. When shall we three meet again? Not until at least early July would be my suggestion...0 -
Andrea Leadsom, a few quid at average odds of 130/1. She could save the party and fund a bathroom...0
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Agreed.MarqueeMark said:Andrea Leadsom was greatly aided by appearing as part of a well-prepared team. A part which Boris also played surprisingly well, for somebody who is supposed to be all about me-me-me. If Leave win this, Boris will be the guy who gets the laurels, the plaudits, the glory from the media. It will be Boris What Won It.
And from last night's debate at least, you would think it was Leave that was the slick, professional, well resourced operation, and Remain the disparate rag-bag of misfiring shreiky folk. Whoever put those three forward should be fired from Remain's operation. Even on paper they would have looked wrong for an am-dram production of Macbeth. When shall we three meet again? Not until at least early July would be my suggestion...0 -
I haven't seen the debate yet but I hear Angela Eagle came away saying that it was 'a fu*king disaster?'
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By the way, I'd amend the above advice to 'Buy Leadsom and hold Boris.'
It's very brave to short on Boris now.0 -
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain0 -
Essex gave a substantial vote to the UKIP candidate in the PCC elections, too. Even with the candidate they had.Sean_F said:FPT Basildon, it looks like Leave will win a thumping majority in that area - but then, they need to.
I’m getting more and more depressed about the UK’s future. Don’t expect to be as bad as the Indie suggests (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-referendum-brexit-britain-in-2025-if-we-leave-eu-a7069476.html) but from where I’m sitting it doesn’t look good at all. Run on the pound and crash of investment values.0 -
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!0 -
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?0 -
For those playing the Euro 16 fantasy football, I have created a PB league:
http://eurofantasy.uefa.com/en
Fantasy 16
League code: 92877R24
I rather fancy Poland as a long shot, though France are rightly favourites.
I think 1 nil to the frogs tonight. Romania has a pretty solid defence.0 -
If only Doris Stokes were still with us.0
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Its a good point that for roughly half the population and rather more than half the newsprint for the last fortnight of this referendum (just imagine in Scotland we had more than 2 years of this) campaign will be about football, not politics. The high point of attention to this may have come and gone.foxinsoxuk said:For those playing the Euro 16 fantasy football, I have created a PB league:
http://eurofantasy.uefa.com/en
Fantasy 16
League code: 92877R24
I rather fancy Poland as a long shot, though France are rightly favourites.
I think 1 nil to the frogs tonight. Romania has a pretty solid defence.0 -
Awful. Nasty stuff unfit to be a doctor.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!0 -
If this post is indicative of the attitude were going to see if Leave win, then the UK is going to be a very unpleasant place indeed.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?0 -
Oh for goodness sake, it was a joke. Lighten up.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Awful. Nasty stuff unfit to be a doctor.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!0 -
Was it though...DavidL said:
Oh for goodness sake, it was a joke. Lighten up.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Awful. Nasty stuff unfit to be a doctor.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!0 -
No comment on Leadsom as I didn't watch the programme, but one point of order: to outshine Boris in a debate is not an achievement. He is a shocking debater. He can't do it.0
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Her loss of grip on power, and her euroscepticism went together. Her actions as Tory leader when she had influence helped build the EU that we have now. She certainly became more eurosceptic when in her dotage, but correlation is not causation.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
Many of the attributes that Leavers so object to (the 4 freedoms, expansion into Eastern Europe, loss of national veto, central regulation to reduce non-tariff barriers) are a direct result of Maggie pushing through the single market.0 -
What a disgusting thing to say.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!0 -
You know nothing about Margaret Thatcher.foxinsoxuk said:
Her loss of grip on power, and her euroscepticism went together. Her actions as Tory leader when she had influence helped build the EU that we have now. She certainly became more eurosceptic when in her dotage, but correlation is not causation.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
Many of the attributes that Leavers so object to (the 4 freedoms, expansion into Eastern Europe, loss of national veto, central regulation to reduce non-tariff barriers) are a direct result of Maggie pushing through the single market.
Next.0 -
The unpleasantness on here isn't from Leavers. It's the typical mad, bad, or sad labelling we are used to every day of the week.OldKingCole said:
If this post is indicative of the attitude were going to see if Leave win, then the UK is going to be a very unpleasant place indeed.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
You are losing the argument.0 -
Another interesting result, in a way, is Gipsy Hill. From 19994-2010, this was a fairly safe Conservative seat. Yet now, the Conservative vote has just vanished.OldKingCole said:
Essex gave a substantial vote to the UKIP candidate in the PCC elections, too. Even with the candidate they had.Sean_F said:FPT Basildon, it looks like Leave will win a thumping majority in that area - but then, they need to.
I’m getting more and more depressed about the UK’s future. Don’t expect to be as bad as the Indie suggests (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-referendum-brexit-britain-in-2025-if-we-leave-eu-a7069476.html) but from where I’m sitting it doesn’t look good at all. Run on the pound and crash of investment values.0 -
The chief objective of the SEA was to add new momentum to the process of the European construction so as to complete the internal market. However, this goal was difficult to achieve on the basis of the existing treaties, notably because of the decision-making process at the Council, which imposed unanimity for the harmonisation of legislation.Casino_Royale said:
You know nothing about Margaret Thatcher.foxinsoxuk said:
Her loss of grip on power, and her euroscepticism went together. Her actions as Tory leader when she had influence helped build the EU that we have now. She certainly became more eurosceptic when in her dotage, but correlation is not causation.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
Many of the attributes that Leavers so object to (the 4 freedoms, expansion into Eastern Europe, loss of national veto, central regulation to reduce non-tariff barriers) are a direct result of Maggie pushing through the single market.
Next.
This is why the Inter-Governmental Conference which culminated in the SEA had a dual mandate. It was necessary to conclude, on the one hand, a Treaty relating to common foreign and security policy and, on the other hand, an act amending the EEC Treaty, notably at the level of:
the decision-making procedure within the Council;
the Commission's powers
the European Parliament's powers;
the extension of the Communities' responsibilities."
From http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:xy0027
The Single European Act was Mrs Thatcher's principle contribution to our relationship with the EU during her decade as PM.0 -
Casino, Fox
I think the answer is simple. We need a pb séance.0 -
Quislings, traitors, haters of the WWC, the establishment elite, liars and so on. The idea that Remainers are not being attacked personally and viciously is far-fetched to say the least. This has been a deeply unpleasant few weeks.Casino_Royale said:
The unpleasantness on here isn't from Leavers. It's the typical mad, bad, or sad labelling we are used to every day of the week.OldKingCole said:
If this post is indicative of the attitude were going to see if Leave win, then the UK is going to be a very unpleasant place indeed.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
You are losing the argument.
I do agree, though, that Remain has lost the argument. Of course, that does not mean that Remain is wrong. Let's just hope that turns out to be the case. If it isn't a lot of ordinary people are going to pay a very heavy price.
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The 4 freedoms were all in the Treaty of Rome and we signed up to them when we joined. We also signed up to the supremacy of EEC law and the overriding jurisdiction of the ECJ. The single market eliminated all remaining internal tariffs for goods and committed States to freeing up the market for services (something that is still ongoing) but it did not create the 4 freedoms. Driving the single market was entirely consistent with Maggie's belief that the EEC was about trade.foxinsoxuk said:
Her loss of grip on power, and her euroscepticism went together. Her actions as Tory leader when she had influence helped build the EU that we have now. She certainly became more eurosceptic when in her dotage, but correlation is not causation.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
Many of the attributes that Leavers so object to (the 4 freedoms, expansion into Eastern Europe, loss of national veto, central regulation to reduce non-tariff barriers) are a direct result of Maggie pushing through the single market.
Maggie undoubtedly pursued the membership of eastern Europe. She did so because of her long held concern about countries under the yoke of the Soviet Union, her desire to embed these countries as western style democracies and she also believed, wrongly, that it would dilute the power of a unified Germany inside the EU.
Who knows what she would have thought of the EU in its current state and frankly, who cares? She doesn't have a vote.0 -
I take it you dont mean the Gipsy Hill near Crystal Palace?Sean_F said:
Another interesting result, in a way, is Gipsy Hill. From 19994-2010, this was a fairly safe Conservative seat. Yet now, the Conservative vote has just vanished.OldKingCole said:
Essex gave a substantial vote to the UKIP candidate in the PCC elections, too. Even with the candidate they had.Sean_F said:FPT Basildon, it looks like Leave will win a thumping majority in that area - but then, they need to.
I’m getting more and more depressed about the UK’s future. Don’t expect to be as bad as the Indie suggests (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-referendum-brexit-britain-in-2025-if-we-leave-eu-a7069476.html) but from where I’m sitting it doesn’t look good at all. Run on the pound and crash of investment values.0 -
The political equivalent of 'What would Jesus say?'0
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Pay your taxes and stop selling things in Church?Estobar said:The political equivalent of 'What would Jesus say?'
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Gipsy Hill in Lambeth Borough.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I take it you dont mean the Gipsy Hill near Crystal Palace?Sean_F said:
Another interesting result, in a way, is Gipsy Hill. From 19994-2010, this was a fairly safe Conservative seat. Yet now, the Conservative vote has just vanished.OldKingCole said:
Essex gave a substantial vote to the UKIP candidate in the PCC elections, too. Even with the candidate they had.Sean_F said:FPT Basildon, it looks like Leave will win a thumping majority in that area - but then, they need to.
I’m getting more and more depressed about the UK’s future. Don’t expect to be as bad as the Indie suggests (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-referendum-brexit-britain-in-2025-if-we-leave-eu-a7069476.html) but from where I’m sitting it doesn’t look good at all. Run on the pound and crash of investment values.0 -
The Internet has done a lot to coarsen political debate.SouthamObserver said:
Quislings, traitors, haters of the WWC, the establishment elite, liars and so on. The idea that Remainers are not being attacked personally and viciously is far-fetched to say the least. This has been a deeply unpleasant few weeks.Casino_Royale said:
The unpleasantness on here isn't from Leavers. It's the typical mad, bad, or sad labelling we are used to every day of the week.OldKingCole said:
If this post is indicative of the attitude were going to see if Leave win, then the UK is going to be a very unpleasant place indeed.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
You are losing the argument.
I do agree, though, that Remain has lost the argument. Of course, that does not mean that Remain is wrong. Let's just hope that turns out to be the case. If it isn't a lot of ordinary people are going to pay a very heavy price.
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On topic, the question is whether Leadsom will be in a position to stand. She is nowhere near being a heavyweight and would need much more momentum behind a candidacy than she currently has. If there's a leadership election in July, I simply don't see how her colleagues will consider her to have the seniority necessary to become PM. On the other hand, she is now reasonably positioned for a contest in 2018/19 but she'll need to join the cabinet in the reshuffle. 33/1 are good odds for someone who looks to have the skills necessary and who could come through in much the way that Major did in 1987-90.
Another angle is that as well as promoting a Brexiter, Cameron would be promoting a woman, which would offer an opportunity to dump an underperforming women cabinet minister without too much washback from gender equality types.0 -
Good post, although I sincerely hope that Remain will come back in the next week or so.SouthamObserver said:
Quislings, traitors, haters of the WWC, the establishment elite, liars and so on. The idea that Remainers are not being attacked personally and viciously is far-fetched to say the least. This has been a deeply unpleasant few weeks.Casino_Royale said:
The unpleasantness on here isn't from Leavers. It's the typical mad, bad, or sad labelling we are used to every day of the week.OldKingCole said:
If this post is indicative of the attitude were going to see if Leave win, then the UK is going to be a very unpleasant place indeed.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
You are losing the argument.
I do agree, though, that Remain has lost the argument. Of course, that does not mean that Remain is wrong. Let's just hope that turns out to be the case. If it isn't a lot of ordinary people are going to pay a very heavy price.0 -
If it really became a "fairly safe Conservative seat" in 1994, there must have been some interesting local factors in play, since (to put it mildly) that doesn't really fit in with what was generally happening in British politics at the time.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I take it you dont mean the Gipsy Hill near Crystal Palace?Sean_F said:
Another interesting result, in a way, is Gipsy Hill. From 19994-2010, this was a fairly safe Conservative seat. Yet now, the Conservative vote has just vanished.OldKingCole said:
Essex gave a substantial vote to the UKIP candidate in the PCC elections, too. Even with the candidate they had.Sean_F said:FPT Basildon, it looks like Leave will win a thumping majority in that area - but then, they need to.
I’m getting more and more depressed about the UK’s future. Don’t expect to be as bad as the Indie suggests (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-referendum-brexit-britain-in-2025-if-we-leave-eu-a7069476.html) but from where I’m sitting it doesn’t look good at all. Run on the pound and crash of investment values.0 -
Are you suggesting he should sack Morgan?david_herdson said:On topic, the question is whether Leadsom will be in a position to stand. She is nowhere near being a heavyweight and would need much more momentum behind a candidacy than she currently has. If there's a leadership election in July, I simply don't see how her colleagues will consider her to have the seniority necessary to become PM. On the other hand, she is now reasonably positioned for a contest in 2018/19 but she'll need to join the cabinet in the reshuffle. 33/1 are good odds for someone who looks to have the skills necessary and who could come through in much the way that Major did in 1987-90.
Another angle is that as well as promoting a Brexiter, Cameron would be promoting a woman, which would offer an opportunity to dump an underperforming women cabinet minister without too much washback from gender equality types.0 -
It was won by the Conservatives in 1978, 1982, split in 1986, and won by Labour in 1990, then won by the Conservatives in 1994, 1998, 2002, 2006. The Conservative typically polled 1,500-2,000 votes. According to David Boothroyd, Labour under performed here due to Lambeth Council's bad reputation, but even so, it's a massive fall in support.ThreeQuidder said:
If it really became a "fairly safe Conservative seat" in 1994, there must have been some interesting local factors in play, since (to put it mildly) that doesn't really fit in with what was generally happening in British politics at the time.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I take it you dont mean the Gipsy Hill near Crystal Palace?Sean_F said:
Another interesting result, in a way, is Gipsy Hill. From 19994-2010, this was a fairly safe Conservative seat. Yet now, the Conservative vote has just vanished.OldKingCole said:
Essex gave a substantial vote to the UKIP candidate in the PCC elections, too. Even with the candidate they had.Sean_F said:FPT Basildon, it looks like Leave will win a thumping majority in that area - but then, they need to.
I’m getting more and more depressed about the UK’s future. Don’t expect to be as bad as the Indie suggests (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-referendum-brexit-britain-in-2025-if-we-leave-eu-a7069476.html) but from where I’m sitting it doesn’t look good at all. Run on the pound and crash of investment values.0 -
No. Wouldn't be averse to her being given a different job though.SandyRentool said:
Are you suggesting he should sack Morgan?david_herdson said:On topic, the question is whether Leadsom will be in a position to stand. She is nowhere near being a heavyweight and would need much more momentum behind a candidacy than she currently has. If there's a leadership election in July, I simply don't see how her colleagues will consider her to have the seniority necessary to become PM. On the other hand, she is now reasonably positioned for a contest in 2018/19 but she'll need to join the cabinet in the reshuffle. 33/1 are good odds for someone who looks to have the skills necessary and who could come through in much the way that Major did in 1987-90.
Another angle is that as well as promoting a Brexiter, Cameron would be promoting a woman, which would offer an opportunity to dump an underperforming women cabinet minister without too much washback from gender equality types.0 -
Yvette on Sky News.
Lots of "ifs" and "coulds".0 -
Giving that he has continued to bang on about it for another twenty minutes I think we can assume it wasn't.DavidL said:
Oh for goodness sake, it was a joke. Lighten up.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Awful. Nasty stuff unfit to be a doctor.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
"I could never have signed this treaty. I hope that that is clear to all who have heard me."
- Speech to the House of Lords rejecting the Maastricht Treaty (7 June, 1993)0 -
Can't see it myself. I've always thought Leave would win and still do. I hope I am wrong, though. Having away from the country for a week and having spent a lot of that time speaking to Europeans and Yanks, I don't think many people outside the UK seriously believe Brexit will happen. That worries me greatly as that may trigger an even more pronounced adverse reaction when it does. I am just praying that the Leave side have really seen things I genuinely can't. We really need them to be right here; we really do.OldKingCole said:
Good post, although I sincerely hope that Remain will come back in the next week or so.SouthamObserver said:
Quislings, traitors, haters of the WWC, the establishment elite, liars and so on. The idea that Remainers are not being attacked personally and viciously is far-fetched to say the least. This has been a deeply unpleasant few weeks.Casino_Royale said:
The unpleasantness on here isn't from Leavers. It's the typical mad, bad, or sad labelling we are used to every day of the week.OldKingCole said:
If this post is indicative of the attitude were going to see if Leave win, then the UK is going to be a very unpleasant place indeed.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
You are losing the argument.
I do agree, though, that Remain has lost the argument. Of course, that does not mean that Remain is wrong. Let's just hope that turns out to be the case. If it isn't a lot of ordinary people are going to pay a very heavy price.
0 -
She till is 33s with Bet3650
-
I agree. I think she is about ready to be Cheif Secretary to the Treasury, with a view to considering her for Chancellor in a couple of years time, possibly as a pre-election reshuffle for that fresh new look premiers (except Dave) seem to want before going to the country. For betters the question is does CSotT could as a Ministry position, I would suggest yes since it attends cabinet.david_herdson said:On topic, the question is whether Leadsom will be in a position to stand. She is nowhere near being a heavyweight and would need much more momentum behind a candidacy than she currently has. If there's a leadership election in July, I simply don't see how her colleagues will consider her to have the seniority necessary to become PM. On the other hand, she is now reasonably positioned for a contest in 2018/19 but she'll need to join the cabinet in the reshuffle. 33/1 are good odds for someone who looks to have the skills necessary and who could come through in much the way that Major did in 1987-90.
Another angle is that as well as promoting a Brexiter, Cameron would be promoting a woman, which would offer an opportunity to dump an underperforming women cabinet minister without too much washback from gender equality types.0 -
You can bang on about £350m, £250m, £160m all day long; about the single market; about the double volume caps for equity market dark pool trading; about standardised widget regulations; or about gravity models of free trade.OldKingCole said:
Good post, although I sincerely hope that Remain will come back in the next week or so.SouthamObserver said:
Quislings, traitors, haters of the WWC, the establishment elite, liars and so on. The idea that Remainers are not being attacked personally and viciously is far-fetched to say the least. This has been a deeply unpleasant few weeks.Casino_Royale said:
The unpleasantness on here isn't from Leavers. It's the typical mad, bad, or sad labelling we are used to every day of the week.OldKingCole said:
If this post is indicative of the attitude were going to see if Leave win, then the UK is going to be a very unpleasant place indeed.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
You are losing the argument.
I do agree, though, that Remain has lost the argument. Of course, that does not mean that Remain is wrong. Let's just hope that turns out to be the case. If it isn't a lot of ordinary people are going to pay a very heavy price.
Doesn't mean a damn thing for most of the public.
Immigration? Bullseye.0 -
A real mixed bag of by-election results last night, but no good news for Labour or the Tories.
LibDem win with 20% increase:
Surrey Docks (Southwark) result:
LDEM: 51.7% (+20.1)
LAB: 21.3% (-0.3)
CON: 12.9% (-7.0)
GRN: 7.4% (-4.3)
UKIP: 6.3% (-8.9)
IND: 0.3% (+0.3)
Labour just hold off a huge swing to Greens:
Gipsy Hill (Lambeth) result:
LAB: 43.4% (-23.6)
GRN: 42.1% (+31.2)
CON: 7.5% (-5.6)
LDEM: 3.0% (-1.9)
UKIP: 2.6% (-1.6)
IND: 0.9%
TUSC: 0.7%
and even some rare good news for UKIP, a gain with a 7% increase:
Laindon Park and Fryerns (Essex) result:
UKIP: 42.6% (+6.8)
LAB: 33.5% (-3.2)
CON: 18.4% (+2.6)
GRN: 5.5% (+3.3)
Crumb of comfort for Labour:
South (North East Lincolnshire) result:
LAB: 47.4% (+4.9)
UKIP: 28.9% (-3.4)
CON: 19.5% (+0.8)
GRN: 2.5% (+2.5)
TUSC: 1.6% (-0.5)0 -
Well, I went to bed delighted with Team Leave's tone and performance.
Boris played his part, took all the insults on the chin and regularly deferred to his colleagues. Gisela stole the show as wise owl - I'd no idea of her background in EU law or role in negotiating previous EU rounds. Leadsom had every fact at her fingertips and a reassuring credibility. How Rudd is her boss is beyond me.
Labelling the EU as old fashioned/a noble idea past its time was a neat pivot. The audience couldn't have missed 'take back control' or 'democracy' as key messages.
I'm totally perplexed by what Team Remain were doing. Or what result they were after. It certainly didn't seem to be establishing a case for Stay In. It was mostly, nobble Boris.
Sturgeon's position was all over the place, as she talked about the benefits of independence in one breath and then the EU in the other. She's a strong debater, but this was the wrong referendum. And why did she keep banging on about climate change? Eagles disappointed me the most. She can be very good in the HoC - but was wrong from the off. Grumpy/showed all her emotions, Tory bashing, using GE language. It all sounded very whiny and off the point.
Rudd was very good at the beginning - a commanding manner, then became increasingly rude and shrill. And then she played the Little Englander card. 50% of her closing remarks bashed Boris and implied he was an irresponsible drunk. Doesn't she know not to fold her arms?
Several journalists expressed real surprise at the ferocity of their Get Boris tactics. At least one of the voxpops said they felt sorry for him. 8/10 Julia Etchingham did a solid job moderating, a noticeable improvement on her earlier outing re Farage/Cameron.0 -
My sentiments exactly. If we leave there could be some pretty big buyer's remorse a year down the line as some of the direct and inadvertent consequences begin to hit home.SouthamObserver said:
Quislings, traitors, haters of the WWC, the establishment elite, liars and so on. The idea that Remainers are not being attacked personally and viciously is far-fetched to say the least. This has been a deeply unpleasant few weeks.Casino_Royale said:
The unpleasantness on here isn't from Leavers. It's the typical mad, bad, or sad labelling we are used to every day of the week.OldKingCole said:
If this post is indicative of the attitude were going to see if Leave win, then the UK is going to be a very unpleasant place indeed.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
You are losing the argument.
I do agree, though, that Remain has lost the argument. Of course, that does not mean that Remain is wrong. Let's just hope that turns out to be the case. If it isn't a lot of ordinary people are going to pay a very heavy price.0 -
Detailed commentary on the Gipsy Hill result here
http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2016/06/lambeth-labour-limp-home-in-gipsy-hill-by-election-with-luke-murphy-winning-by-just-36-votes/
They seem to feel the local Labour party was too progressive for its voters.0 -
Yep - it's the best, most accessible card, Leave have it and so will win. Good for them. What happens after that, though, may prove to be less euphoric.TOPPING said:
You can bang on about £350m, £250m, £160m all day long; about the single market; about the double volume caps for equity market dark pool trading; about standardised widget regulations; or about gravity models of free trade.OldKingCole said:
Good post, although I sincerely hope that Remain will come back in the next week or so.SouthamObserver said:
Quislings, traitors, haters of the WWC, the establishment elite, liars and so on. The idea that Remainers are not being attacked personally and viciously is far-fetched to say the least. This has been a deeply unpleasant few weeks.Casino_Royale said:
The unpleasantness on here isn't from Leavers. It's the typical mad, bad, or sad labelling we are used to every day of the week.OldKingCole said:
If this post is indicative of the attitude were going to see if Leave win, then the UK is going to be a very unpleasant place indeed.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
You are losing the argument.
I do agree, though, that Remain has lost the argument. Of course, that does not mean that Remain is wrong. Let's just hope that turns out to be the case. If it isn't a lot of ordinary people are going to pay a very heavy price.
Doesn't mean a damn thing for most of the public.
Immigration? Bullseye.
0 -
SandyRentool said:
Are you suggesting he should sack Morgan?david_herdson said:On topic, the question is whether Leadsom will be in a position to stand. She is nowhere near being a heavyweight and would need much more momentum behind a candidacy than she currently has. If there's a leadership election in July, I simply don't see how her colleagues will consider her to have the seniority necessary to become PM. On the other hand, she is now reasonably positioned for a contest in 2018/19 but she'll need to join the cabinet in the reshuffle. 33/1 are good odds for someone who looks to have the skills necessary and who could come through in much the way that Major did in 1987-90.
Another angle is that as well as promoting a Brexiter, Cameron would be promoting a woman, which would offer an opportunity to dump an underperforming women cabinet minister without too much washback from gender equality types.
She's the oddest looking thing - those staring doll eyes, it's really most unnerving.0 -
Is that really a smart tactic for remain, inviting natural "remain" SNP voters to either not bother, or switch at the ballot box. Ruth has been very good for the Tories in recent election but the majority of the "Yes" vote in Scotland would be more naturally "remain" than the unionist vote. @Malcolmg is the exception and @Alastair the rule here..dr_spyn said:Osborne fronting new Durex campaign?
https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/7411486909000007690 -
She lived down to expectations as ever. What a no mark. Even the nice chappy gave her a hard time.old_labour said:Yvette on Sky News.
Lots of "ifs" and "coulds".0 -
@FaisalIslam: striking thing from debate was Remain strategIES. Aimed at 3 totally different markets - turnout Scots vote, direct Labour appeal, get BorisPlatoSaid said:I'm totally perplexed by what Team Remain were doing. Or what result they were after. It certainly didn't seem to be establishing a case for Stay In. It was mostly, nobble Boris.
0 -
Does it even generate much of a fear factor south of the border? My limited contacts suggest to me that most people now accept that Scotland will be off at some point, and so quite a few feel sooner would be better to get Salmond and Sturgeon off their TV screens! It may even firm up the Leave vote as people who want independence for themselves will be the best placed to understand why others want it for themselves as well.Pulpstar said:
Is that really a smart tactic for remain, inviting natural "remain" SNP voters to either not bother, or switch at the ballot box. Ruth has been very good for the Tories in recent election but the majority of the "Yes" vote in Scotland would be more naturally "remain" than the unionist vote. @Malcolmg is the exception and @Alastair the rule here..
0 -
Chill. You yourself have said you could live with EEA-EFTA, and could even see yourself wanting it. MPs have made it pretty clear what they'll do in the event of a Leave vote. Hannan has made it clear that the real-politik of a narrow Leave vote would require a slow and steady disengagement through the EEA, as a lot of people will still have voted for the single market.SouthamObserver said:
Can't see it myself. I've always thought Leave would win and still do. I hope I am wrong, though. Having away from the country for a week and having spent a lot of that time speaking to Europeans and Yanks, I don't think many people outside the UK seriously believe Brexit will happen. That worries me greatly as that may trigger an even more pronounced adverse reaction when it does. I am just praying that the Leave side have really seen things I genuinely can't. We really need them to be right here; we really do.OldKingCole said:
Good post, although I sincerely hope that Remain will come back in the next week or so.SouthamObserver said:
Quislings, traitors, haters of the WWC, the establishment elite, liars and so on. The idea that Remainers are not being attacked personally and viciously is far-fetched to say the least. This has been a deeply unpleasant few weeks.Casino_Royale said:
The unpleasantness on here isn't from Leavers. It's the typical mad, bad, or sad labelling we are used to every day of the week.OldKingCole said:
If this post is indicative of the attitude were going to see if Leave win, then the UK is going to be a very unpleasant place indeed.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
You are losing the argument.
I do agree, though, that Remain has lost the argument. Of course, that does not mean that Remain is wrong. Let's just hope that turns out to be the case. If it isn't a lot of ordinary people are going to pay a very heavy price.
So relax.0 -
Oh gods, are people still arguing about what Thatcher would have done? One day I hope to find a political debate where people stop making Thatcher the key issue.0
-
I don't much care how she looks, I care that she is an atrocious, housetrained Education Secretary!PlatoSaid said:SandyRentool said:
Are you suggesting he should sack Morgan?david_herdson said:On topic, the question is whether Leadsom will be in a position to stand. She is nowhere near being a heavyweight and would need much more momentum behind a candidacy than she currently has. If there's a leadership election in July, I simply don't see how her colleagues will consider her to have the seniority necessary to become PM. On the other hand, she is now reasonably positioned for a contest in 2018/19 but she'll need to join the cabinet in the reshuffle. 33/1 are good odds for someone who looks to have the skills necessary and who could come through in much the way that Major did in 1987-90.
Another angle is that as well as promoting a Brexiter, Cameron would be promoting a woman, which would offer an opportunity to dump an underperforming women cabinet minister without too much washback from gender equality types.
She's the oddest looking thing - those staring doll eyes, it's really most unnerving.0 -
But that's enough about the nightmare of a Remain vote.Monksfield said:
My sentiments exactly. If we leave there could be some pretty big buyer's remorse a year down the line as some of the direct and inadvertent consequences begin to hit home.SouthamObserver said:
Quislings, traitors, haters of the WWC, the establishment elite, liars and so on. The idea that Remainers are not being attacked personally and viciously is far-fetched to say the least. This has been a deeply unpleasant few weeks.Casino_Royale said:
The unpleasantness on here isn't from Leavers. It's the typical mad, bad, or sad labelling we are used to every day of the week.OldKingCole said:
If this post is indicative of the attitude were going to see if Leave win, then the UK is going to be a very unpleasant place indeed.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
You are losing the argument.
I do agree, though, that Remain has lost the argument. Of course, that does not mean that Remain is wrong. Let's just hope that turns out to be the case. If it isn't a lot of ordinary people are going to pay a very heavy price.0 -
0
-
I tried to decode Nicola's points through the lens of SIndy - but the debate was moving too fast and I gave in.Pulpstar said:
Is that really a smart tactic for remain, inviting natural "remain" SNP voters to either not bother, or switch at the ballot box. Ruth has been very good for the Tories in recent election but the majority of the "Yes" vote in Scotland would be more naturally "remain" than the unionist vote. @Malcolmg is the exception and @Alastair the rule here..dr_spyn said:Osborne fronting new Durex campaign?
https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/741148690900000769
What was your impression?0 -
I voted against Maggie at every possible opportunity in the eighties, but her moves towards European integration were one of the few areas where I agreed with her.Indigo said:
Giving that he has continued to bang on about it for another twenty minutes I think we can assume it wasn't.DavidL said:
Oh for goodness sake, it was a joke. Lighten up.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Awful. Nasty stuff unfit to be a doctor.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
"I could never have signed this treaty. I hope that that is clear to all who have heard me."
- Speech to the House of Lords rejecting the Maastricht Treaty (7 June, 1993)
Heath was famous for his 20 year sulk after losing power, but Mrs Thatchers undermining of the Major government from behind the scenes was far worse behaviour. John Major is a much better model of how an ex leader should behave.
In the nineties Maggie looked a shell of herself, physically as well as mentally, brooding over old disputes. In many ways a tragic figure, brought down by her own character flaws.
0 -
Aye, I'm not sure how well an edict from George Osborne will play north of the wall...Indigo said:
Does it even generate much of a fear factor south of the border? My limited contacts suggest to me that most people now accept that Scotland will be off at some point, and so quite a few feel sooner would be better to get Salmond and Sturgeon off their TV screens! It may even firm up the Leave vote as people who want independence for themselves will be the best placed to understand why others want it for themselves as well.Pulpstar said:
Is that really a smart tactic for remain, inviting natural "remain" SNP voters to either not bother, or switch at the ballot box. Ruth has been very good for the Tories in recent election but the majority of the "Yes" vote in Scotland would be more naturally "remain" than the unionist vote. @Malcolmg is the exception and @Alastair the rule here..0 -
Morning all,
Did I watch the same programme? Leadsom was terrible IMHO. Amber Rudd completely outshone anyone else.0 -
We live in a time of movement, not tribal, politics. You only have to look at last night to see that.dr_spyn said:Gipsy Hill result.
https://twitter.com/election_data/status/7410534611570237460 -
Actually, we do: she supported Brexit. I've posted this multiple times on here, but this message never seems to get through.DavidL said:
The 4 freedoms were all in the Treaty of Rome and we signed up to them when we joined. We also signed up to the supremacy of EEC law and the overriding jurisdiction of the ECJ. The single market eliminated all remaining internal tariffs for goods and committed States to freeing up the market for services (something that is still ongoing) but it did not create the 4 freedoms. Driving the single market was entirely consistent with Maggie's belief that the EEC was about trade.foxinsoxuk said:
Her loss of grip on power, and her euroscepticism went together. Her actions as Tory leader when she had influence helped build the EU that we have now. She certainly became more eurosceptic when in her dotage, but correlation is not causation.Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?
Many of the attributes that Leavers so object to (the 4 freedoms, expansion into Eastern Europe, loss of national veto, central regulation to reduce non-tariff barriers) are a direct result of Maggie pushing through the single market.
Maggie undoubtedly pursued the membership of eastern Europe. She did so because of her long held concern about countries under the yoke of the Soviet Union, her desire to embed these countries as western style democracies and she also believed, wrongly, that it would dilute the power of a unified Germany inside the EU.
Who knows what she would have thought of the EU in its current state and frankly, who cares? She doesn't have a vote.
She told me but, if you don't believe me, ask her private secretary, either or her two main biographers or her close personal friends. Or look at what she said.
Who cares? Well, it doesn't matter anymore. But several europhiles *still*!seem to think she's an ace card, just because she wore a jumper with some European flags on it over 40 years ago.0 -
I seem to recall a very odd sci fi series which had an order of warrior poets, and they'd train in both and wear rings on their hands to indicate skill in each discipline. There was one who was a master poet and master warrior, but there were also others who I guess only wrote bad limericks but could kill like the best. I think it was the requiem for homo sapient series. Quite unique as I recall. The future society was run by the order of mystic mathematicians and other seekers of the ineffable flame or something strange like that, and with all manner of inventive other societies.viewcode said:
Leaving aside you're misquoting a rampant antisemite, there is one thing that has always bugged me about that speech. How hard are "warrior poets"? Are they better fighters than warriors who only write prose? Do we take into account things like scansion, metre, genre? How are they recruited? "Guys, we need somebody who can swing an axe and write sonnets"?Sunil_Prasannan said:"In the year of Our Lord 2016, British patriots, starving and outnumbered, charged the fields of EURef. They fought like warrior poets. They fought like Britons. And they won their Freedom."
Although with poety I think a major problem is to many layman the difference between a good poem and a bad one is not at all obvious.0 -
-
Funny how because Leadsom looks and maybe sounds a bit Thatcher-like half of PB started to wet their pants with excitement last night! Has the mummy returned.kle4 said:Oh gods, are people still arguing about what Thatcher would have done? One day I hope to find a political debate where people stop making Thatcher the key issue.
0 -
-
The problem of any female Tory leadership candidate is that they are cursed by being measured against Maggie. There is some validity in the comparison, but feelings about Maggie and her legacy are very divisive even within the party let alone the wider country. There is some sexism in this, male candidates are not assessed in the same way.kle4 said:Oh gods, are people still arguing about what Thatcher would have done? One day I hope to find a political debate where people stop making Thatcher the key issue.
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Only here could people want the Tories to replace an Old Etonian with a market trader. Hope her taxes have always been in orderMonksfield said:
Funny how because Leadsom looks and maybe sounds a bit Thatcher-like half of PB started to wet their pants with excitement last night! Has the mummy returned.kle4 said:Oh gods, are people still arguing about what Thatcher would have done? One day I hope to find a political debate where people stop making Thatcher the key issue.
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StreathamThreeQuidder said:
If it really became a "fairly safe Conservative seat" in 1994, there must have been some interesting local factors in play, since (to put it mildly) that doesn't really fit in with what was generally happening in British politics at the time.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I take it you dont mean the Gipsy Hill near Crystal Palace?Sean_F said:
Another interesting result, in a way, is Gipsy Hill. From 19994-2010, this was a fairly safe Conservative seat. Yet now, the Conservative vote has just vanished.OldKingCole said:
Essex gave a substantial vote to the UKIP candidate in the PCC elections, too. Even with the candidate they had.Sean_F said:FPT Basildon, it looks like Leave will win a thumping majority in that area - but then, they need to.
I’m getting more and more depressed about the UK’s future. Don’t expect to be as bad as the Indie suggests (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-referendum-brexit-britain-in-2025-if-we-leave-eu-a7069476.html) but from where I’m sitting it doesn’t look good at all. Run on the pound and crash of investment values.
Streatham had a Tory MP until 1992 and is now one of Labours safest seats.Ditto Mtcham and Morden, Tory until 97 now one of Labs safest.ThreeQuidder said:
If it really became a "fairly safe Conservative seat" in 1994, there must have been some interesting local factors in play, since (to put it mildly) that doesn't really fit in with what was generally happening in British politics at the time.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I take it you dont mean the Gipsy Hill near Crystal Palace?Sean_F said:
Another interesting result, in a way, is Gipsy Hill. From 19994-2010, this was a fairly safe Conservative seat. Yet now, the Conservative vote has just vanished.OldKingCole said:
Essex gave a substantial vote to the UKIP candidate in the PCC elections, too. Even with the candidate they had.Sean_F said:FPT Basildon, it looks like Leave will win a thumping majority in that area - but then, they need to.
I’m getting more and more depressed about the UK’s future. Don’t expect to be as bad as the Indie suggests (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-referendum-brexit-britain-in-2025-if-we-leave-eu-a7069476.html) but from where I’m sitting it doesn’t look good at all. Run on the pound and crash of investment values.
I lived in the Streatham Vale area for most of my life until 15 years ago.
The demographics were changing when I left and the change since then has been astonishing, on much the scale of Newham.
Part of it is because those areas were Croydon Suburbs as much as London Suburbs - Mitcham was still in Surrey until 1965 and Croydon was its own county until then.
Croydon was a Northern Manufacturing Town in all but geographical locations. The Purley Way was lined with factories end to end. Rowan Road (where the south London Crematorium is) had two large factories in among the houses with a third in Meopham Rd one of the turnoffs off it. The Mullard later Philips factory in Hackbridge employed thick end of 10,000.
In the 80s and 90s they all closed and became out of town retail parks in the case of Purley Way and housing elsewhere.
As an engineer there was no future there for me so I got out. Nearly all the people who viewed my flat were african immigrants, as were the buyers. Mind you so is my wife lol.0 -
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But you don't have a problem with people belong labelled REMAINIACS?Estobar said:
You're digging a (fox) hole for yourself here.foxinsoxuk said:
She campaigned strongly for In when she was Conservative Party Leader, and forced through the Single Market.Estobar said:
That's pretty awful revisionism. The term 'Remain' has come to refer to this EU referendum and there is no certainty which way Maggie would have voted given the current set of circumstances in the EU. I, personally, think she would have been strongly for Leave but it's an opinion. Stating that Maggie was for Remain needs to be called out.foxinsoxuk said:
Maggie was for Remain
I agree that when she lost power and developed dementia she became more eurosceptic!
First, the EU is unrecognisable now from how it was back then
and
Second, I'm sorry, but to attribute euroscepticism to dementia is beneath both you and this site. Is this how low you have stooped or is it because Remain are in trouble?0 -
I note George Galloway hasn't been too publicly visible - I assume he's off whipping up the hard left to vote leave. Probably a good tactic0
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Just watching the highlights. It's frightening to think Labour's leadership is so bad that some people think this rude, arrogant, hectoring and not very bright woman Angela Eagle would be better.0
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David and i disagree on this but if Tony Blair and David Cameron can come in "cold" into power having never had ministerial experience, and be a successful PM, then so can Andrea.Indigo said:
I agree. I think she is about ready to be Cheif Secretary to the Treasury, with a view to considering her for Chancellor in a couple of years time, possibly as a pre-election reshuffle for that fresh new look premiers (except Dave) seem to want before going to the country. For betters the question is does CSotT could as a Ministry position, I would suggest yes since it attends cabinet.david_herdson said:On topic, the question is whether Leadsom will be in a position to stand. She is nowhere near being a heavyweight and would need much more momentum behind a candidacy than she currently has. If there's a leadership election in July, I simply don't see how her colleagues will consider her to have the seniority necessary to become PM. On the other hand, she is now reasonably positioned for a contest in 2018/19 but she'll need to join the cabinet in the reshuffle. 33/1 are good odds for someone who looks to have the skills necessary and who could come through in much the way that Major did in 1987-90.
Another angle is that as well as promoting a Brexiter, Cameron would be promoting a woman, which would offer an opportunity to dump an underperforming women cabinet minister without too much washback from gender equality types.
I appreciate it's a bit different inside Government. But I'm not convinced it's that different. The main difference is not having the party machine and all the think tanks and papers coming to you, with all the necessary aids and advisors, and time to prepare.
But if a serious leadership bid is mounted, those will come.0 -
Morning all
The debate does not appear to have had any effect on the markets (although see Faisal Islam on Twitter right now for discussions on what that means and how accurate they might be), and we haven't had polling, but I think it pretty clear Leave "won" the debate, in the same way that Alex Salmond won against Alistair darling and Nigel Farage won against Nick Clegg
In essence, the snake oil salesmen have the easier sell, and blatant lies don't worry them.
Want more money? Sure, you can have that.
Shorter hospital queues? You got it.
Of course behind the shiny spin lies the black heart of the Leave campaign, "All the bad things in your life are the fault of immigrants"
Want more money? We'll stop immigrants from coming here and claiming your benefits.
Shorter hospital queues? We'll stop immigrants using your hospitals.
It would be sad, sad day for our country if this message wins, and it is not at all clear who might successfully pick up the pieces afterwards.
Boris ought to be a busted flush. If Andrea Leadsom became PM in a Brexit World, I would vote Labour.0 -
I've seen her perform several times in HoC - she can be sharp, witty, smart. Last night she reverted to moaning victim - I can only presume she thinks this works with some Labour voters.ydoethur said:Just watching the highlights. It's frightening to think Labour's leadership is so bad that some people think this rude, arrogant, hectoring and not very bright woman Angela Eagle would be better.
I find it a turn-off. There's no hope - just demands for more money, then complaining it wasn't enough.0 -
I've got her laid on Betfair - I'd go top price if I was a bookie.ydoethur said:Just watching the highlights. It's frightening to think Labour's leadership is so bad that some people think this rude, arrogant, hectoring and not very bright woman Angela Eagle would be better.
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I know what Remain were trying to do, but it didn't work. They got the tone wrong, sounded disjointed, shrill and highly personal. I don't think they were prepared for that level of unity from Vote Leave either.CarlottaVance said:
@FaisalIslam: striking thing from debate was Remain strategIES. Aimed at 3 totally different markets - turnout Scots vote, direct Labour appeal, get BorisPlatoSaid said:I'm totally perplexed by what Team Remain were doing. Or what result they were after. It certainly didn't seem to be establishing a case for Stay In. It was mostly, nobble Boris.
Fortunately for them, not many will have seen it.
Wembley is the big one.0 -
Is "market trader" the new vernacular for "Cheif Investment Officer" ?Innocent_Abroad said:
Only here could people want the Tories to replace an Old Etonian with a market trader. Hope her taxes have always been in orderMonksfield said:
Funny how because Leadsom looks and maybe sounds a bit Thatcher-like half of PB started to wet their pants with excitement last night! Has the mummy returned.kle4 said:Oh gods, are people still arguing about what Thatcher would have done? One day I hope to find a political debate where people stop making Thatcher the key issue.
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Agreed.Her take down of Boris Johnson was terrific.Amber Rudd is a far better option.rottenborough said:Morning all,
Did I watch the same programme? Leadsom was terrible IMHO. Amber Rudd completely outshone anyone else.0 -
This may have already been covered overnight, but John Mann and Denis Skinner have come out for Brexit.0
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Tuesday 21 June, 18.00 (Paris): Northern Ireland v Germany – Group CCasino_Royale said:
Wembley is the big one.
Tuesday 21 June, 18.00 (Marseille): Ukraine v Poland – Group C
Tuesday 21 June, 21.00 (Bordeaux): Croatia v Spain – Group D
Tuesday 21 June, 21.00 (Lens): Czech Republic v Turkey – Group D
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Both betting and economic markets are strangely unruffled. Leave was back out to 3.85 first thing this morning.Scott_P said:Morning all
The debate does not appear to have had any effect on the markets (although see Faisal Islam on Twitter right now for discussions on what that means and how accurate they might be), and we haven't had polling, but I think it pretty clear Leave "won" the debate, in the same way that Alex Salmond won against Alistair darling and Nigel Farage won against Nick Clegg
In essence, the snake oil salesmen have the easier sell, and blatant lies don't worry them.
Want more money? Sure, you can have that.
Shorter hospital queues? You got it.
Of course behind the shiny spin lies the black heart of the Leave campaign, "All the bad things in your life are the fault of immigrants"
Want more money? We'll stop immigrants from coming here and claiming your benefits.
Shorter hospital queues? We'll stop immigrants using your hospitals.
It would be sad, sad day for our country if this message wins, and it is not at all clear who might successfully pick up the pieces afterwards.
Boris ought to be a busted flush. If Andrea Leadsom became PM in a Brexit World, I would vote Labour.
My opinion on the polling on this is that the difficulties in getting accurate samples and forecasting the demographics and geography of turnout very dubious indeed. RodCrosby has said more or less the same, and Jacks ARSE is sorely missed.
My hunch is that Remain will win with a percentage above 55%, but the range of possible outcomes is wide. 60/40 either way is possible. The value is on the Leave side, I am most green on Remain 40-45%.
Good post Scott. I enjoy your links, but when you sometimes hide your own light under a bushel.0
This discussion has been closed.