politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New Opinium poll has Remain still ahead but under their old
Comments
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Oh, and how many post on PB?OllyT said:
OK but can we at least acknowledge that there are some very unsavoury BNP/EDL types involved with the Leave campaign.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Smear, smear, smeartyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
Richard_Tyndall said:
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
Ugly politics from tyson.0 -
I remember rather a lot of comments about BNP members joining UKIP - when UKIP are the only party that throws them out immediately on discovery.OllyT said:
OK but can we at least acknowledge that there are some very unsavoury BNP/EDL types involved with the Leave campaign.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Smear, smear, smeartyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
Richard_Tyndall said:
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
Ugly politics from tyson.
I recall many comments on PB quite rightly telling Labour to sort itself out because of some anti-semitic remarks. Likewise Leave to acknowledge that they have a problem with racists and tell us what they intend to do to rectify it (assuming they do intend to do something to rectify it)
The Labour party has more violent thugs and extremists in its ranks (and anti semites) than UKIP or Vote Leave do. (And that is why their members are going for Remain in general).0 -
False equivalence. Leave, like Remain, is a view not a party.OllyT said:
OK but can we at least acknowledge that there are some very unsavoury BNP/EDL types involved with the Leave campaign.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Smear, smear, smeartyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
Richard_Tyndall said:
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
Ugly politics from tyson.
I recall many comments on PB quite rightly telling Labour to sort itself out because of some anti-semitic remarks. Likewise Leave to acknowledge that they have a problem with racists and tell us what they intend to do to rectify it (assuming they do intend to do something to rectify it)0 -
"Sunil says.."viewcode said:
Everytime I watch it, people shush me out of the room because I work out the water-in-bottles riddle. DieHard3 is 50% a great film (up to and including the Reserve Bank heist) but tails off badly in the last third. Still, Scar is almost - but not quite - as good as Alan RickmanMortimer said:
Die Hard with a vengance on BBC1!viewcode said:
No. In the Osborne boom, the sale price of my flat rose by about 20K but the prices of the flats/houses I wanted to buy rose by about 30K (flats) or 40K (houses). I can't make the gap up. So I keep making offers but keep getting rejected. Prices have started to fall (lack of BTL buyers, possibly Brexit...I know, irony) but they're not falling fast enough. The question is what's going to happen first: my buyer pull out or a vendor cracks. It's not a good situation, and not one I'm particularly proud of.Mortimer said:
Did you manage to sell your flat, vc?viewcode said:
The Grauniad can use whatever methodolgy it likes. But the headline is wrong.Sunil_Prasannan said:
OK, so the Grauniad on Sunday is using the Old methodology.Scott_P said:@britainelects: Opinium's EU referendum poll:
New methodology:
Remain: 43%
Leave: 41%
Old methodology:
Remain: 40%
Leave: 43%
(Online, 31 May - 03 Jun)
It is ironic: I frequently point out that Brexit is undesirable because of multiple financial penalties (opportunity cost, uncertainty, transition costs) and am content that I am correct. But the pro-REMAIN Osborne, by preannouncing a change in taxation with four month's notice, cost me about £10-20K. It's not like it was unprecedented: Lawson did the same thing in 87/88? with the same deleritous results. Damn...
Still. I have Doritos and "Watchmen" is on Film4. So life not that bad.
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Cultures evolve, and always have. The rate of change has increased, but that is true everywhere I go in Europe or outside. America is a very different place to when I lived there in the 1970's, Australia very different to when I first went in 1987. Even Malawi changes each time I visit, becoming more Western each time. Elders there deplore the pernicious influence of American Rappers and Chinese businessmen.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
The dislike of this globalisation change does drive populist movements everywhere, from Trumpism to ISIS, though I would not equate the two.0 -
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.0 -
If racist groups are furthering their agenda within the official Leave campaign (or indeed the unofficial ones), then those campaigns do need to do something about it, and I suggest you bring it to their attention.OllyT said:
OK but can we at least acknowledge that there are some very unsavoury BNP/EDL types involved with the Leave campaign.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Smear, smear, smeartyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
Richard_Tyndall said:
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
Ugly politics from tyson.
I recall many comments on PB quite rightly telling Labour to sort itself out because of some anti-semitic remarks. Likewise Leave to acknowledge that they have a problem with racists and tell us what they intend to do to rectify it (assuming they do intend to do something to rectify it)
If racists merely agree with Leaving, there's nothing that the official campaigns can or indeed should do about it. The very notion is absurd.0 -
I love it, but saw a few weeks back - haven't seen Simon Gruber for a while.viewcode said:
Rorschach! Dr Manhattan! It's got a good plot! Why do people not love this film?Mortimer said:
Die Hard with a vengance on BBC1!viewcode said:
No. In the Osborne boom, the sale price of my flat rose by about 20K but the prices of the flats/houses I wanted to buy rose by about 30K (flats) or 40K (houses). I can't make the gap up. So I keep making offers but keep getting rejected. Prices have started to fall (lack of BTL buyers, possibly Brexit...I know, irony) but they're not falling fast enough. The question is what's going to happen first: my buyer pull out or a vendor cracks. It's not a good situation, and not one I'm particularly proud of.Mortimer said:
Did you manage to sell your flat, vc?viewcode said:
The Grauniad can use whatever methodolgy it likes. But the headline is wrong.Sunil_Prasannan said:
OK, so the Grauniad on Sunday is using the Old methodology.Scott_P said:@britainelects: Opinium's EU referendum poll:
New methodology:
Remain: 43%
Leave: 41%
Old methodology:
Remain: 40%
Leave: 43%
(Online, 31 May - 03 Jun)
It is ironic: I frequently point out that Brexit is undesirable because of multiple financial penalties (opportunity cost, uncertainty, transition costs) and am content that I am correct. But the pro-REMAIN Osborne, by preannouncing a change in taxation with four month's notice, cost me about £10-20K. It's not like it was unprecedented: Lawson did the same thing in 87/88? with the same deleritous results. Damn...
Still. I have Doritos and "Watchmen" is on Film4. So life not that bad.0 -
chestnut said:
It seems that it is a 3.0% swing from remain to Leave, post purdah and without weighting adjustments.BenedictWhite said:Can I just check, on this opinium poll, what was it last time on the old methodology compared to this time on the old and new?
So is that a 3% swing or a 6% swing?weejonnie said:
It was 44-40 in favour of Remain (17-19th May)BenedictWhite said:Can I just check, on this opinium poll, what was it last time on the old methodology compared to this time on the old and new?
It is now 43-41 in favour of Leave.0 -
Re-read (in translation, of course) Atomised the other day. Houellebecq is a tremendous writer.rottenborough said:
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.0 -
What chaps?rottenborough said:
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.0 -
Actually I didn't say that as a punishment...I would really like to see the UK take it's fair share of displaced migrants as per our European neighbours to be honest, and the migrant crisis to be treated in an orderly fashion throughout Europe.
But, I would actually find it just reward if we did vote Brexit for France to push the chaos it deals with in Calais onto England.Luckyguy1983 said:
You've just declared that trains full of migrants would be a punishment inflicted on this country. That's a view that most if not all of these individuals and groups would agree with.tyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
Richard_Tyndall said:
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
Something you are clearly well practiced in.0 -
Gosh- something we agree on.Mortimer said:
Re-read (in translation, of course) Atomised the other day. Houellebecq is a tremendous writer.rottenborough said:
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.0 -
Goodnight, all. Sweet dreams.0
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Can anyone tell me how setting the odds works - at the moment we have this for Leaving the EU (the ---- is the split between back and lay). What should I look out for?
3.55 £5316
3.6 £5233
3.65 £1804
---------------
3.7 £1484
3.75 £288
3.8 £2484
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3.BenedictWhite said:chestnut said:
It seems that it is a 3.0% swing from remain to Leave, post purdah and without weighting adjustments.BenedictWhite said:Can I just check, on this opinium poll, what was it last time on the old methodology compared to this time on the old and new?
So is that a 3% swing or a 6% swing?weejonnie said:
It was 44-40 in favour of Remain (17-19th May)BenedictWhite said:Can I just check, on this opinium poll, what was it last time on the old methodology compared to this time on the old and new?
It is now 43-41 in favour of Leave.
A 6 point move is a 3% swing (one side goes up 3, the other down 3=6 in total)0 -
You are siding with the IRA and with the bankers who people like you have been claiming should be in jail for their part in the 2008 crash.tyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
You do not have the moral high ground here. Indeed you are crawling in the gutter much of the time.0 -
Are you worried that you'd have to return from Europe, tyson?tyson said:Actually I didn't say that as a punishment...I would really like to see the UK take it's fair share of displaced migrants as per our European neighbours to be honest, and the migrant crisis to be treated in an orderly fashion throughout Europe.
But, I would actually find it just reward if we did vote Brexit for France to push the chaos it deals with in Calais onto England.Luckyguy1983 said:
You've just declared that trains full of migrants would be a punishment inflicted on this country. That's a view that most if not all of these individuals and groups would agree with.tyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
Richard_Tyndall said:
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
Something you are clearly well practiced in.0 -
We all crawl in the gutter - but LEAVE can see the stars.Richard_Tyndall said:
You are siding with the IRA and with the bankers who people like you have been claiming should be in jail for their part in the 2008 crash.tyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
You do not have the moral high ground here. Indeed you are crawling in the gutter much of the time.0 -
OK... Still, it's quite a large move and is a bit of a trend. Even the new numbers show a smaller swing to leave (though with leave still behind).chestnut said:
3.BenedictWhite said:chestnut said:
It seems that it is a 3.0% swing from remain to Leave, post purdah and without weighting adjustments.BenedictWhite said:Can I just check, on this opinium poll, what was it last time on the old methodology compared to this time on the old and new?
So is that a 3% swing or a 6% swing?weejonnie said:
It was 44-40 in favour of Remain (17-19th May)BenedictWhite said:Can I just check, on this opinium poll, what was it last time on the old methodology compared to this time on the old and new?
It is now 43-41 in favour of Leave.
A 6 point move is a 3% swing (one side goes up 3, the other down 3=6 in total)
We live in interesting times.0 -
Nobody writing today comes close, although at times his work makes you reel away and go 'bloody hell'.tyson said:Gosh- something we agree on.
Mortimer said:
Re-read (in translation, of course) Atomised the other day. Houellebecq is a tremendous writer.rottenborough said:
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.0 -
Whoops, sorry.AnneJGP said:
What chaps?rottenborough said:
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.0 -
The Britain First Rally in Leicester on two consecutive Saturdays in May is the only Referendum stall that I have seen that got any real reaction from the crowd.Luckyguy1983 said:
If racist groups are furthering their agenda within the official Leave campaign (or indeed the unofficial ones), then those campaigns do need to do something about it, and I suggest you bring it to their attention.OllyT said:
OK but can we at least acknowledge that there are some very unsavoury BNP/EDL types involved with the Leave campaign.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Smear, smear, smeartyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
Richard_Tyndall said:
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
Ugly politics from tyson.
I recall many comments on PB quite rightly telling Labour to sort itself out because of some anti-semitic remarks. Likewise Leave to acknowledge that they have a problem with racists and tell us what they intend to do to rectify it (assuming they do intend to do something to rectify it)
If racists merely agree with Leaving, there's nothing that the official campaigns can or indeed should do about it. The very notion is absurd.
http://m.leicestermercury.co.uk/police-action-Britain-leader-Paul-Golding/story-29341121-detail/story.html0 -
Unless they apply for permanent residency in the aftermath of a Leave vote.williamglenn said:
See Richard Tyndall's post below. Basically it's a misconception that there is any treaty obligation to maintain anyone's rights at all. It comes down to a matter of domestic law.VapidBilge said:
What about rights exercised?williamglenn said:
I'm saying that if it is the case that rights acquired by treaty must be grandfathered then it would apply to all who have the right to settle at the moment the treaty is abrogated. In other words, people citing the Vienna Convention to reassure people about the consequences of Brexit should be careful what they wish for.BenedictWhite said:
Are you saying that it applies to all that could have settled then?williamglenn said:
That's a supposition, not a fact.BenedictWhite said:
It applies to all citizens that have settled not all that could. We would assume that works both ways.williamglenn said:
All these sensible compromises are things that would have to be negotiated and viewed from the other side might be regarded as concessions to make our life easier. What would we give in return?BenedictWhite said:
People like to make a thing of it on here.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundariesBenedictWhite said:
Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.Scott_P said:What does he know...
@JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe
Some of the more excitable Brexiters have been quoting the Vienna Convention of 1969 to argue that acquired rights of British citizens will be protected. Again this cuts both ways. If the EU's starting position is that the UK is obliged to maintain all current EU citizens' rights to settle in the UK, what will we offer to make them change their opinion?
One of the risks is that because people have the right, for example, to settle in France by virtue of being an EU citizen, they wouldn't have jumped through all the same administrative hoops like acquiring a residence permit as a non-EU citizen would do, so may find themselves in a legal limbo.
On an unpleasant note, if you are correct, that's an almighty good reason for all parties to ensure a smooth exit, trade deals included.0 -
The film, like the graphic novel, is brilliant. There is one thing that annoys me about it though.viewcode said:
Rorschach! Dr Manhattan! It's got a good plot! Why do people not love this film?Mortimer said:
Die Hard with a vengance on BBC1!viewcode said:
No. In the Osborne boom, the sale price of my flat rose by about 20K but the prices of the flats/houses I wanted to buy rose by about 30K (flats) or 40K (houses). I can't make the gap up. So I keep making offers but keep getting rejected. Prices have started to fall (lack of BTL buyers, possibly Brexit...I know, irony) but they're not falling fast enough. The question is what's going to happen first: my buyer pull out or a vendor cracks. It's not a good situation, and not one I'm particularly proud of.Mortimer said:
Did you manage to sell your flat, vc?viewcode said:
The Grauniad can use whatever methodolgy it likes. But the headline is wrong.Sunil_Prasannan said:
OK, so the Grauniad on Sunday is using the Old methodology.Scott_P said:@britainelects: Opinium's EU referendum poll:
New methodology:
Remain: 43%
Leave: 41%
Old methodology:
Remain: 40%
Leave: 43%
(Online, 31 May - 03 Jun)
It is ironic: I frequently point out that Brexit is undesirable because of multiple financial penalties (opportunity cost, uncertainty, transition costs) and am content that I am correct. But the pro-REMAIN Osborne, by preannouncing a change in taxation with four month's notice, cost me about £10-20K. It's not like it was unprecedented: Lawson did the same thing in 87/88? with the same deleritous results. Damn...
Still. I have Doritos and "Watchmen" is on Film4. So life not that bad.
No smoking.
In the graphic novel everyone smokes incessantly. It is part of the film noir feel of the story. In the film they show no smoking. Murder, graphic violence, attempted rape and any other type of adult bad behavior but no smoking.
It is stupid.0 -
He is good, tho' that's the most English German since Ade EdmondsonSunil_Prasannan said:
I love it, but saw a few weeks back - haven't seen Simon Gruber for a while.
0 -
So you're saying that Remain will adapt their message now (having blown through all their fear ammunition already), but Leave will do nothing further from this point on? Is there a reason to believe one side only will react from this point on?Roger said:
All 'Leaves' messages have been picked up. They couldn't have hoped for more. Now we'll wait to see Remain articulate a response and find a theme for the last few weeks. I could give them a few ideas but their researchers will already be on the caseBenedictWhite said:
Why do you think it is a high water mark? Do you think leave is going to tail off?Roger said:Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm not sure there is time for any convincing now. It's GOTV time. Leave need to massively push for their angry hordes to be registered, able, and definitely voting (how they do that I don't know), and Leave need to do whatever they can to mobilise their supporters, like students.Roger said:
I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.Mortimer said:Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.
Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....
I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.
They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
I've heard and seen nothing that convinces me Leave is in the lead. I think that Remain are accepting and perhaps even encouraging this narrative, to scare the Remain-minded and to induce complacency amongst Leavers. It may or may not work, but it's worth trying.
What convinces me 'Leave' are doing well is that every vox pop you hear -and there are plenty-parrot the 'Leave' campaign. Turkey-£350 million a week-NHS going down the toilet -immigration. They're making all the connections and then the immigration figures came out. Couldn't be worse for 'Remain' which is why I think this could be 'Leave's' high water mark.0 -
rottenborough said:
Whoops, sorry.AnneJGP said:
What chaps?rottenborough said:
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
0 -
LOL. Although are you referring to the stars on the EU flag?weejonnie said:
We all crawl in the gutter - but LEAVE can see the stars.Richard_Tyndall said:
You are siding with the IRA and with the bankers who people like you have been claiming should be in jail for their part in the 2008 crash.tyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
You do not have the moral high ground here. Indeed you are crawling in the gutter much of the time.0 -
Blind hope counts as a reason, I think?MTimT said:
So you're saying that Remain will adapt their message now (having blown through all their fear ammunition already), but Leave will do nothing further from this point on? Is there a reason to believe one side only will react from this point on?Roger said:
All 'Leaves' messages have been picked up. They couldn't have hoped for more. Now we'll wait to see Remain articulate a response and find a theme for the last few weeks. I could give them a few ideas but their researchers will already be on the caseBenedictWhite said:
Why do you think it is a high water mark? Do you think leave is going to tail off?Roger said:Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm not sure there is time for any convincing now. It's GOTV time. Leave need to massively push for their angry hordes to be registered, able, and definitely voting (how they do that I don't know), and Leave need to do whatever they can to mobilise their supporters, like students.Roger said:
I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.Mortimer said:Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.
Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....
I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.
They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
I've heard and seen nothing that convinces me Leave is in the lead. I think that Remain are accepting and perhaps even encouraging this narrative, to scare the Remain-minded and to induce complacency amongst Leavers. It may or may not work, but it's worth trying.
What convinces me 'Leave' are doing well is that every vox pop you hear -and there are plenty-parrot the 'Leave' campaign. Turkey-£350 million a week-NHS going down the toilet -immigration. They're making all the connections and then the immigration figures came out. Couldn't be worse for 'Remain' which is why I think this could be 'Leave's' high water mark.0 -
"Sunil says... keep calm and vote LEAVE!"viewcode said:
He is good, tho' that's the most English German since Ade EdmondsonSunil_Prasannan said:
I love it, but saw a few weeks back - haven't seen Simon Gruber for a while. 0 -
The Map and the Territory- maybe my favourite. Or Atomised. Or Submission. McEwan is too flawed (what was he thinking with Saturday?), but he is more prolific. Faulkes flawed too, though less prolific.
But, Philip Roth (for me) is the Ali, the king, the greatest.rottenborough said:
Nobody writing today comes close, although at times his work makes you reel away and go 'bloody hell'.tyson said:Gosh- something we agree on.
Mortimer said:
Re-read (in translation, of course) Atomised the other day. Houellebecq is a tremendous writer.rottenborough said:
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.0 -
I'd agree that The Map and the Territory is his most accomplished book. Likely in decades to come to be seen as the 'one'. But Submission is stunning in its sheer no holding back bravado.tyson said:The Map and the Territory- maybe my favourite. Or Atomised. Or Submission. McEwan is too flawed (what was he thinking with Saturday?), but he is more prolific. Faulkes flawed too, though less prolific.
But, Philip Roth (for me) is the Ali, the king, the greatest.rottenborough said:
Nobody writing today comes close, although at times his work makes you reel away and go 'bloody hell'.tyson said:Gosh- something we agree on.
Mortimer said:
Re-read (in translation, of course) Atomised the other day. Houellebecq is a tremendous writer.rottenborough said:
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.0 -
Have never found a book more unnerving than Engleby. Read it in one sitting.tyson said:The Map and the Territory- maybe my favourite. Or Atomised. Or Submission. McEwan is too flawed (what was he thinking with Saturday?), but he is more prolific. Faulkes flawed too, though less prolific.
But, Philip Roth (for me) is the Ali, the king, the greatest.rottenborough said:
Nobody writing today comes close, although at times his work makes you reel away and go 'bloody hell'.tyson said:Gosh- something we agree on.
Mortimer said:
Re-read (in translation, of course) Atomised the other day. Houellebecq is a tremendous writer.rottenborough said:
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.0 -
Rorschach:viewcode said:
Rorschach! Dr Manhattan! It's got a good plot! Why do people not love this film?Mortimer said:
Die Hard with a vengance on BBC1!viewcode said:
No. In the Osborne boom, the sale price of my flat rose by about 20K but the prices of the flats/houses I wanted to buy rose by about 30K (flats) or 40K (houses). I can't make the gap up. So I keep making offers but keep getting rejected. Prices have started to fall (lack of BTL buyers, possibly Brexit...I know, irony) but they're not falling fast enough. The question is what's going to happen first: my buyer pull out or a vendor cracks. It's not a good situation, and not one I'm particularly proud of.Mortimer said:
Did you manage to sell your flat, vc?viewcode said:
The Grauniad can use whatever methodolgy it likes. But the headline is wrong.Sunil_Prasannan said:
OK, so the Grauniad on Sunday is using the Old methodology.Scott_P said:@britainelects: Opinium's EU referendum poll:
New methodology:
Remain: 43%
Leave: 41%
Old methodology:
Remain: 40%
Leave: 43%
(Online, 31 May - 03 Jun)
It is ironic: I frequently point out that Brexit is undesirable because of multiple financial penalties (opportunity cost, uncertainty, transition costs) and am content that I am correct. But the pro-REMAIN Osborne, by preannouncing a change in taxation with four month's notice, cost me about £10-20K. It's not like it was unprecedented: Lawson did the same thing in 87/88? with the same deleritous results. Damn...
Still. I have Doritos and "Watchmen" is on Film4. So life not that bad.
* Chucks boiling hot oil over prisoner's face *
"None of you understand. I am not locked in here with you. You are locked in here with me".
Watchmen is most probably in my top five favourite movies. Seriously, seriously underrated.
A Minutemen movie should be made but Watchmen didn't do great at the box office so cannot see it ever happening.0 -
I read Everyman a few years ago. Brilliant, but left me unwell for days.tyson said:The Map and the Territory- maybe my favourite. Or Atomised. Or Submission. McEwan is too flawed (what was he thinking with Saturday?), but he is more prolific. Faulkes flawed too, though less prolific.
But, Philip Roth (for me) is the Ali, the king, the greatest.rottenborough said:
Nobody writing today comes close, although at times his work makes you reel away and go 'bloody hell'.tyson said:Gosh- something we agree on.
Mortimer said:
Re-read (in translation, of course) Atomised the other day. Houellebecq is a tremendous writer.rottenborough said:
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.0 -
If I remember the graphic novel, "Watchmen" (almost) predicted vaping. Arguably "2001" predicted the iPad, so much so Samsung used it in a court caseRichard_Tyndall said:
The film, like the graphic novel, is brilliant. There is one thing that annoys me about it though.
No smoking.
In the graphic novel everyone smokes incessantly. It is part of the film noir feel of the story. In the film they show no smoking. Murder, graphic violence, attempted rape and any other type of adult bad behavior but no smoking.
It is stupid.0 -
How awesome is Faisal Islam. He's just followed me on twitter!0
-
I wasn't deriding you; I feel genuinely that the outlook that underpins these outbursts is rather sad.tyson said:Slightly non sequitur. I am very frustrated that many of my fellow citizens do not have the same lofty aspirations for collective, global, collaboration and you deride me as self loathing.
The amount of personal abuse I get on this site isn't surprising. If you notice I usually always play the ball and never the player....I've had the odd dig at seanT and possibly and obliquely Plato for a bit of fun.Luckyguy1983 said:
Gosh, I'm so glad I don't hate myself like you.tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
AnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
We're not angels in this country but nor are we the opposite. It is not a requirement to live in a constant state of mortification for being British as you appear to. No one is a low life for choosing self-government.0 -
"I heard joke once: Man goes to doctor. Says he's depressed. Life seems harsh, and cruel. Says he feels all alone in threatening world. Doctor says: "Treatment is simple. The great clown - Pagliacci - is in town. Go see him. That should pick you up." Man bursts into tears. "But doctor..." he says "I am Pagliacci." Good joke. Everybody laugh. Roll on snare drum. Curtains."MP_SE said:
Rorschach:viewcode said:
Rorschach! Dr Manhattan! It's got a good plot! Why do people not love this film?Mortimer said:
Die Hard with a vengance on BBC1!viewcode said:
No. In the Osborne boom, the sale price of my flat rose by about 20K but the prices of the flats/houses I wanted to buy rose by about 30K (flats) or 40K (houses). I can't make the gap up. So I keep making offers but keep getting rejected. Prices have started to fall (lack of BTL buyers, possibly Brexit...I know, irony) but they're not falling fast enough. The question is what's going to happen first: my buyer pull out or a vendor cracks. It's not a good situation, and not one I'm particularly proud of.Mortimer said:
Did you manage to sell your flat, vc?viewcode said:
The Grauniad can use whatever methodolgy it likes. But the headline is wrong.Sunil_Prasannan said:
OK, so the Grauniad on Sunday is using the Old methodology.Scott_P said:@britainelects: Opinium's EU referendum poll:
New methodology:
Remain: 43%
Leave: 41%
Old methodology:
Remain: 40%
Leave: 43%
(Online, 31 May - 03 Jun)
It is ironic: I frequently point out that Brexit is undesirable because of multiple financial penalties (opportunity cost, uncertainty, transition costs) and am content that I am correct. But the pro-REMAIN Osborne, by preannouncing a change in taxation with four month's notice, cost me about £10-20K. It's not like it was unprecedented: Lawson did the same thing in 87/88? with the same deleritous results. Damn...
Still. I have Doritos and "Watchmen" is on Film4. So life not that bad.
* Chucks boiling hot oil over prisoner's face *
"None of you understand. I am not locked in here with you. You are locked in here with me".
Watchmen is most probably in my top five favourite movies. Seriously, seriously underrated.
A Minutemen movie should be made but Watchmen didn't do great at the box office so cannot see it ever happening.0 -
Yes? Extremism is something that every party has a bit of, but I've been a Labour Party member for 45 years and have yet to meet a violent thug. Give us a couple of examples.weejonnie said:
The Labour party has more violent thugs and extremists in its ranks (and anti semites) than UKIP or Vote Leave do. (And that is why their members are going for Remain in general).
To be fair I've never met a violent UKIP thug either. Perhaps I've led a sheltered life.
0 -
0
-
Has your icon changed? I'm sure we had a white rose last time I logged on.TheScreamingEagles said:How awesome is Faisal Islam. He's just followed me on twitter!
0 -
I don't see the relevance to the original point.foxinsoxuk said:
The Britain First Rally in Leicester on two consecutive Saturdays in May is the only Referendum stall that I have seen that got any real reaction from the crowd.Luckyguy1983 said:
If racist groups are furthering their agenda within the official Leave campaign (or indeed the unofficial ones), then those campaigns do need to do something about it, and I suggest you bring it to their attention.OllyT said:
OK but can we at least acknowledge that there are some very unsavoury BNP/EDL types involved with the Leave campaign.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Smear, smear, smeartyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
Richard_Tyndall said:
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
Ugly politics from tyson.
I recall many comments on PB quite rightly telling Labour to sort itself out because of some anti-semitic remarks. Likewise Leave to acknowledge that they have a problem with racists and tell us what they intend to do to rectify it (assuming they do intend to do something to rectify it)
If racists merely agree with Leaving, there's nothing that the official campaigns can or indeed should do about it. The very notion is absurd.
http://m.leicestermercury.co.uk/police-action-Britain-leader-Paul-Golding/story-29341121-detail/story.html0 -
Would have been more believable if he had ended his post "innocent face".....TheScreamingEagles said:*whistles innocently*
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/7392285664376299530 -
Yeah, I've changed it to Lady Thatcher, looking resplendent in this jumperrottenborough said:
Has your icon changed? I'm sure we had a white rose last time I logged on.TheScreamingEagles said:How awesome is Faisal Islam. He's just followed me on twitter!
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CGxDYwvW0AAwvpW.jpg0 -
Engelby is superb, profoundly superb. But Faulks also wrote the risible Human Traces and On Green Dolphin Street.
Roth is just brilliant, always. I think he has said he will not write another novel, but I harboured a fantasy that he would meet someone I knew well and write a novel about their life. His ability to dissect and understand the frailties of the human condition is humbling. I've never felt once that he has struck a wrong note, and I think I've read everything he has written.
That said, Hollebeque is equally breathtaking....but his output is quite limited to date.
Have never found a book more unnerving than Engleby. Read it in one sitting.Mortimer said:tyson said:The Map and the Territory- maybe my favourite. Or Atomised. Or Submission. McEwan is too flawed (what was he thinking with Saturday?), but he is more prolific. Faulkes flawed too, though less prolific.
But, Philip Roth (for me) is the Ali, the king, the greatest.
Nobody writing today comes close, although at times his work makes you reel away and go 'bloody hell'.rottenborough said:tyson said:Gosh- something we agree on.
Re-read (in translation, of course) Atomised the other day. Houellebecq is a tremendous writer.Mortimer said:
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.rottenborough said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.AnneJGP said:tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
0 -
Did he do that during the GE campaign?TheScreamingEagles said:*whistles innocently*
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/739228566437629953
I also wonder how any one can be certain of this given that the Conservative GOTV machine will not be firing on all cylinders and it isn't a constituency based election.
Leave can't pile up votes where it doesn't matter. (Neither can remain)0 -
Doctor to patient: "... and what about alcohol intake?"
Patient: "Well to be honest, it's a bit early for me, but I'll have a gin and tonic."0 -
Everyone's going to read so much into that tweet given his role.RobD said:
Would have been more believable if he had ended his post "innocent face".....TheScreamingEagles said:*whistles innocently*
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/7392285664376299530 -
No - that's in the gutter as well. That's why Remain are there - worshipping it.rottenborough said:
LOL. Although are you referring to the stars on the EU flag?weejonnie said:
We all crawl in the gutter - but LEAVE can see the stars.Richard_Tyndall said:
You are siding with the IRA and with the bankers who people like you have been claiming should be in jail for their part in the 2008 crash.tyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
You do not have the moral high ground here. Indeed you are crawling in the gutter much of the time.0 -
What utter tosh. Children of immigrants adopt the attitudes and social mores of the host culture almost without exception.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
I don't think we need be afraid that Morris Dancing is going to die out anytime soon. In fact I enjoy the fact that my local side has quite a few brown faces in it.
0 -
Finally caught up with Cameron's debate appearance. Thought he did quite well actually.0
-
There were quite a few off the record briefings like that from CCHQ during the campaign, tot from Lord Cooper of course.BenedictWhite said:
Did he do that during the GE campaign?TheScreamingEagles said:*whistles innocently*
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/739228566437629953
I also wonder how any one can be certain of this given that the Conservative GOTV machine will not be firing on all cylinders and it isn't a constituency based election.
Leave can't pile up votes where it doesn't matter. (Neither can remain)0 -
It's beautifully cast (except possibly for Malin Ackerman, but it's a difficult part). It's not perfect (the heightened reality and poor makeup doesn't work with the historical characters like Nixon and Pat Buchanan) but I can watch it frequently without being bored.MP_SE said:Rorschach:
* Chucks boiling hot oil over prisoner's face *
"None of you understand. I am not locked in here with you. You are locked in here with me".
Watchmen is most probably in my top five favourite movies. Seriously, seriously underrated.
0 -
tyson said:
Engelby is superb, profoundly superb. But Faulks also wrote the risible Human Traces and On Green Dolphin Street.
Roth is just brilliant, always. I think he has said he will not write another novel, but I harboured a fantasy that he would meet someone I knew well and write a novel about their life. His ability to dissect and understand the frailties of the human condition is humbling. I've never felt once that he has struck a wrong note, and I think I've read everything he has written.
That said, Hollebeque is equally breathtaking....but his output is quite limited to date.
Have never found a book more unnerving than Engleby. Read it in one sitting.Mortimer said:tyson said:The Map and the Territory- maybe my favourite. Or Atomised. Or Submission. McEwan is too flawed (what was he thinking with Saturday?), but he is more prolific. Faulkes flawed too, though less prolific.
But, Philip Roth (for me) is the Ali, the king, the greatest.
Nobody writing today comes close, although at times his work makes you reel away and go 'bloody hell'.rottenborough said:tyson said:Gosh- something we agree on.
Re-read (in translation, of course) Atomised the other day. Houellebecq is a tremendous writer.Mortimer said:
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.rottenborough said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.AnneJGP said:tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
Will have to try Roth - thanks for the tip.
G'night all.0 -
In some places they do and in some they don't. It also depends on the speed of change.Bromptonaut said:
What utter tosh. Children of immigrants adopt the attitudes and social mores of the host culture almost without exception.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
I don't think we need be afraid that Morris Dancing is going to die out anytime soon. In fact I enjoy the fact that my local side has quite a few brown faces in it.0 -
Come now...tyson said:Actually I didn't say that as a punishment...I would really like to see the UK take it's fair share of displaced migrants as per our European neighbours to be honest, and the migrant crisis to be treated in an orderly fashion throughout Europe.
But, I would actually find it just reward if we did vote Brexit for France to push the chaos it deals with in Calais onto England.Luckyguy1983 said:
You've just declared that trains full of migrants would be a punishment inflicted on this country. That's a view that most if not all of these individuals and groups would agree with.tyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
Richard_Tyndall said:
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
'I would hope that the French open the floodgates from Calais and give as many migrants as they could one way tickets on Eurostar with a complimentary glass of champers. That'll be for starters.....and no more than we deserve.'
Floodgates? That's very inflammatory language. 'no more than we deserve' - what's that if not a punishment?0 -
I love Everyman....but The Human Stain probably is my favourite.
Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment (obviously translated) though remains for me the most unbelievably brilliant, mind blowing novel I have ever read. How someone can be that clever is beyond me.rottenborough said:
I read Everyman a few years ago. Brilliant, but left me unwell for days.tyson said:The Map and the Territory- maybe my favourite. Or Atomised. Or Submission. McEwan is too flawed (what was he thinking with Saturday?), but he is more prolific. Faulkes flawed too, though less prolific.
But, Philip Roth (for me) is the Ali, the king, the greatest.rottenborough said:
Nobody writing today comes close, although at times his work makes you reel away and go 'bloody hell'.tyson said:Gosh- something we agree on.
Mortimer said:
Re-read (in translation, of course) Atomised the other day. Houellebecq is a tremendous writer.rottenborough said:
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.0 -
Which for those people (not me) who think that migrants from outside the EU have a more alien and threatening culture must be a very comforting thing.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet the difficulties they face in getting here in the first place are immeasurably more difficult than if they are from the EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:
As a remainer I absolutely reject your assertion. As long as they integrate into the UK they are welcome irrespective of their race or colour of their skin or wherever they are fromSunil_Prasannan said:
The REMAIN campaign is based on racism too, against predominantly non-white non-EU people.OllyT said:
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.OllyT said:tlg86 said:
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.Big_G_NorthWales said:Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
Given that, I can't understand why they would wish to allow proportionately more of them to enter the UK by voting LEAVE.0 -
Well, I think this is utter tosh. Muslims, for instance.Bromptonaut said:
What utter tosh. Children of immigrants adopt the attitudes and social mores of the host culture almost without exception.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.0 -
Well yes, but knowing that Nuneaton had was in play for example, will not help here, if say the Sunderland central has a high turnout for leave that makes a difference that merely getting over the line in one constituency doesn't.TheScreamingEagles said:
There were quite a few off the record briefings like that from CCHQ during the campaign, tot from Lord Cooper of course.BenedictWhite said:
Did he do that during the GE campaign?TheScreamingEagles said:*whistles innocently*
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/739228566437629953
I also wonder how any one can be certain of this given that the Conservative GOTV machine will not be firing on all cylinders and it isn't a constituency based election.
Leave can't pile up votes where it doesn't matter. (Neither can remain)
So my point is that we are playing a different game.0 -
Just that some Hard Right people are hijacking the Leave Campaign, as per the MOS headline.Luckyguy1983 said:
I don't see the relevance to the original point.foxinsoxuk said:
The Britain First Rally in Leicester on two consecutive Saturdays in May is the only Referendum stall that I have seen that got any real reaction from the crowd.Luckyguy1983 said:
If racist groups are furthering their agenda within the official Leave campaign (or indeed the unofficial ones), then those campaigns do need to do something about it, and I suggest you bring it to their attention.OllyT said:
OK but can we at least acknowledge that there are some very unsavoury BNP/EDL types involved with the Leave campaign.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Smear, smear, smeartyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
Richard_Tyndall said:
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
Ugly politics from tyson.
I recall many comments on PB quite rightly telling Labour to sort itself out because of some anti-semitic remarks. Likewise Leave to acknowledge that they have a problem with racists and tell us what they intend to do to rectify it (assuming they do intend to do something to rectify it)
If racists merely agree with Leaving, there's nothing that the official campaigns can or indeed should do about it. The very notion is absurd.
http://m.leicestermercury.co.uk/police-action-Britain-leader-Paul-Golding/story-29341121-detail/story.html0 -
They really aren't.TheScreamingEagles said:
Everyone's going to read so much into that tweet given his role.RobD said:
Would have been more believable if he had ended his post "innocent face".....TheScreamingEagles said:*whistles innocently*
https://twitter.com/AndrewCooper__/status/739228566437629953
If there was any truth in it 1.33 for Remain is exceptionally good value.0 -
How is that hijacking the campaign?foxinsoxuk said:
Just that some Hard Right people are hijacking the Leave Campaign, as per the MOS headline.Luckyguy1983 said:
I don't see the relevance to the original point.foxinsoxuk said:
The Britain First Rally in Leicester on two consecutive Saturdays in May is the only Referendum stall that I have seen that got any real reaction from the crowd.Luckyguy1983 said:
If racist groups are furthering their agenda within the official Leave campaign (or indeed the unofficial ones), then those campaigns do need to do something about it, and I suggest you bring it to their attention.OllyT said:
OK but can we at least acknowledge that there are some very unsavoury BNP/EDL types involved with the Leave campaign.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Smear, smear, smeartyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
Richard_Tyndall said:
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
Ugly politics from tyson.
I recall many comments on PB quite rightly telling Labour to sort itself out because of some anti-semitic remarks. Likewise Leave to acknowledge that they have a problem with racists and tell us what they intend to do to rectify it (assuming they do intend to do something to rectify it)
If racists merely agree with Leaving, there's nothing that the official campaigns can or indeed should do about it. The very notion is absurd.
http://m.leicestermercury.co.uk/police-action-Britain-leader-Paul-Golding/story-29341121-detail/story.html0 -
Like Sadiq Khan, you mean? Gosh, the cognitive dissonance his victory must have given you. You poor poor thing.VapidBilge said:
Well, I think this is utter tosh. Muslims, for instance.Bromptonaut said:
What utter tosh. Children of immigrants adopt the attitudes and social mores of the host culture almost without exception.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
0 -
Perhaps you could ask the BNP/EDL members infesting the Leave campaign (apparently)?Bromptonaut said:
Which for those people (not me) who think that migrants from outside the EU have a more alien and threatening culture must be a very comforting thing.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet the difficulties they face in getting here in the first place are immeasurably more difficult than if they are from the EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:
As a remainer I absolutely reject your assertion. As long as they integrate into the UK they are welcome irrespective of their race or colour of their skin or wherever they are fromSunil_Prasannan said:
The REMAIN campaign is based on racism too, against predominantly non-white non-EU people.OllyT said:
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.OllyT said:tlg86 said:
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.Big_G_NorthWales said:Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
Given that, I can't understand why they would wish to allow proportionately more of them to enter the UK by voting LEAVE.
Or to put it more simply, those with those sentiments view it as a first step.0 -
Only that 'Leave' have pushed credibility further than I ever thought they'd get away with. Their broadcast was nonsense but they seem to have got away with it. I'm certain if they go any further the public's willing suspension of disbelief will be tested beyond breaking point.MTimT said:
So you're saying that Remain will adapt their message now (having blown through all their fear ammunition already), but Leave will do nothing further from this point on? Is there a reason to believe one side only will react from this point on?Roger said:
All 'Leaves' messages have been picked up. They couldn't have hoped for more. Now we'll wait to see Remain articulate a response and find a theme for the last few weeks. I could give them a few ideas but their researchers will already be on the caseBenedictWhite said:
Why do you think it is a high water mark? Do you think leave is going to tail off?Roger said:Luckyguy1983 said:
I'm not sure there is time for any convincing now. It's GOTV time. Leave need to massively push for their angry hordes to be registered, able, and definitely voting (how they do that I don't know), and Leave need to do whatever they can to mobilise their supporters, like students.Roger said:
I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.Mortimer said:Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.
Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....
I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.
They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
I've heard and seen nothing that convinces me Leave is in the lead. I think that Remain are accepting and perhaps even encouraging this narrative, to scare the Remain-minded and to induce complacency amongst Leavers. It may or may not work, but it's worth trying.
What convinces me 'Leave' are doing well is that every vox pop you hear -and there are plenty-parrot the 'Leave' campaign. Turkey-£350 million a week-NHS going down the toilet -immigration. They're making all the connections and then the immigration figures came out. Couldn't be worse for 'Remain' which is why I think this could be 'Leave's' high water mark.0 -
If you read the Observer article it also makes clear Remain are ahead using the alternative methodology but still very close0
-
Hmmm - there may just be a slight difference between an experienced, well educated doctor from India and a hardened criminal from (say) Romania. I know which one I'd prefer. Equally there seem to be many migrants from outside the EU who seem to spend their nights groping German Women. That, to me, is an alien and threatening culture. (I mean it is very unlikely that the Indian doctor is roaming the streets of Birmingham looking for young white virgins being thrown out of pubs, but you never know.)Bromptonaut said:
Which for those people (not me) who think that migrants from outside the EU have a more alien and threatening culture must be a very comforting thing.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet the difficulties they face in getting here in the first place are immeasurably more difficult than if they are from the EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:
As a remainer I absolutely reject your assertion. As long as they integrate into the UK they are welcome irrespective of their race or colour of their skin or wherever they are fromSunil_Prasannan said:
The REMAIN campaign is based on racism too, against predominantly non-white non-EU people.OllyT said:
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.OllyT said:tlg86 said:
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.Big_G_NorthWales said:Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
Given that, I can't understand why they would wish to allow proportionately more of them to enter the UK by voting LEAVE.0 -
OK- a couple of my buttons were pushed. I just watched the Rumble in the Jungle fight again and my pulse was racing a tad.
It is funny really- for those that have seen the fight recently, I thought that Foreman was largely on top from recollection, but actually Ali was completely in control for the whole fight.Luckyguy1983 said:
Come now...tyson said:Actually I didn't say that as a punishment...I would really like to see the UK take it's fair share of displaced migrants as per our European neighbours to be honest, and the migrant crisis to be treated in an orderly fashion throughout Europe.
But, I would actually find it just reward if we did vote Brexit for France to push the chaos it deals with in Calais onto England.Luckyguy1983 said:
You've just declared that trains full of migrants would be a punishment inflicted on this country. That's a view that most if not all of these individuals and groups would agree with.tyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
Richard_Tyndall said:
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
'I would hope that the French open the floodgates from Calais and give as many migrants as they could one way tickets on Eurostar with a complimentary glass of champers. That'll be for starters.....and no more than we deserve.'
Floodgates? That's very inflammatory language. 'no more than we deserve' - what's that if not a punishment?0 -
Thanks for the single datum.Bromptonaut said:
Like Sadiq Khan, you mean? Gosh, the cognitive dissonance his victory must have given you. You poor poor thing.VapidBilge said:
Well, I think this is utter tosh. Muslims, for instance.Bromptonaut said:
What utter tosh. Children of immigrants adopt the attitudes and social mores of the host culture almost without exception.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
Which proves precisely nothing.0 -
So far as I can discern they are acting entirely of their own accord. Unless OllyT wants 'Leave' (whoever that is) to recommend an end to the right of free assembly, I don't see much in his request beyond throwing a bit of manure around hoping it sticks.foxinsoxuk said:
Just that some Hard Right people are hijacking the Leave Campaign, as per the MOS headline.Luckyguy1983 said:
I don't see the relevance to the original point.foxinsoxuk said:
The Britain First Rally in Leicester on two consecutive Saturdays in May is the only Referendum stall that I have seen that got any real reaction from the crowd.Luckyguy1983 said:
If racist groups are furthering their agenda within the official Leave campaign (or indeed the unofficial ones), then those campaigns do need to do something about it, and I suggest you bring it to their attention.OllyT said:
OK but can we at least acknowledge that there are some very unsavoury BNP/EDL types involved with the Leave campaign.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Smear, smear, smeartyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
Richard_Tyndall said:
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
Ugly politics from tyson.
I recall many comments on PB quite rightly telling Labour to sort itself out because of some anti-semitic remarks. Likewise Leave to acknowledge that they have a problem with racists and tell us what they intend to do to rectify it (assuming they do intend to do something to rectify it)
If racists merely agree with Leaving, there's nothing that the official campaigns can or indeed should do about it. The very notion is absurd.
http://m.leicestermercury.co.uk/police-action-Britain-leader-Paul-Golding/story-29341121-detail/story.html0 -
It proves that sweeping generalisations are precisely wrong.VapidBilge said:
Thanks for the single datum.Bromptonaut said:
Like Sadiq Khan, you mean? Gosh, the cognitive dissonance his victory must have given you. You poor poor thing.VapidBilge said:
Well, I think this is utter tosh. Muslims, for instance.Bromptonaut said:
What utter tosh. Children of immigrants adopt the attitudes and social mores of the host culture almost without exception.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
Which proves precisely nothing.0 -
Opinium has Leave with a big lead in Wales, Remain narrowly ahead In England and comfortably ahead in Scotland0
-
Bromptonaut said:
It proves that sweeping generalisations are precisely wrong.VapidBilge said:
Thanks for the single datum.Bromptonaut said:
Like Sadiq Khan, you mean? Gosh, the cognitive dissonance his victory must have given you. You poor poor thing.VapidBilge said:
Well, I think this is utter tosh. Muslims, for instance.Bromptonaut said:
What utter tosh. Children of immigrants adopt the attitudes and social mores of the host culture almost without exception.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
Which proves precisely nothing.
And what is your previous post other than a sweeping generalisation?Bromptonaut said:What utter tosh. Children of immigrants adopt the attitudes and social mores of the host culture almost without exception.
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Crime and Punishment is an astonishingly good novel, and highly readable too.tyson said:I love Everyman....but The Human Stain probably is my favourite.
Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment (obviously translated) though remains for me the most unbelievably brilliant, mind blowing novel I have ever read. How someone can be that clever is beyond me.rottenborough said:
I read Everyman a few years ago. Brilliant, but left me unwell for days.tyson said:The Map and the Territory- maybe my favourite. Or Atomised. Or Submission. McEwan is too flawed (what was he thinking with Saturday?), but he is more prolific. Faulkes flawed too, though less prolific.
But, Philip Roth (for me) is the Ali, the king, the greatest.rottenborough said:
Nobody writing today comes close, although at times his work makes you reel away and go 'bloody hell'.tyson said:Gosh- something we agree on.
Mortimer said:
Re-read (in translation, of course) Atomised the other day. Houellebecq is a tremendous writer.rottenborough said:
You chaps would enjoy "Submission" by French writer, Michel Houellebecq.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the .Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be
One thing that I came away with was the fact that mid-nineteenth century Tsarist Russia had a far more liberal penal system than us. In the UK the protagonist would have been hung. It also is an interesting insight into how a justice system based upon an Enquiring Prosecutor works compared to our adverserial system. Most of all it is a cracking read.
I also recommend The Double, an astonishing exposition of de-personalisation and de-realisation and descent into madness written with inside knowledge.0 -
Your ones? Or his?Bromptonaut said:
It proves that sweeping generalisations are precisely wrong.VapidBilge said:
Thanks for the single datum.Bromptonaut said:
Like Sadiq Khan, you mean? Gosh, the cognitive dissonance his victory must have given you. You poor poor thing.VapidBilge said:
Well, I think this is utter tosh. Muslims, for instance.Bromptonaut said:
What utter tosh. Children of immigrants adopt the attitudes and social mores of the host culture almost without exception.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
Which proves precisely nothing.
You started with a sweeping generalisation.0 -
Interesting. I think that leave is ahead in England without LondonHYUFD said:Opinium has Leave with a big lead in Wales, Remain narrowly ahead In England and comfortably ahead in Scotland
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The BBC show on Ali tonight was very well done, well worth catching up with.tyson said:OK- a couple of my buttons were pushed. I just watched the Rumble in the Jungle fight again and my pulse was racing a tad.
It is funny really- for those that have seen the fight recently, I thought that Foreman was largely on top from recollection, but actually Ali was completely in control for the whole fight.Luckyguy1983 said:
Come now...tyson said:Actually I didn't say that as a punishment...I would really like to see the UK take it's fair share of displaced migrants as per our European neighbours to be honest, and the migrant crisis to be treated in an orderly fashion throughout Europe.
But, I would actually find it just reward if we did vote Brexit for France to push the chaos it deals with in Calais onto England.Luckyguy1983 said:
You've just declared that trains full of migrants would be a punishment inflicted on this country. That's a view that most if not all of these individuals and groups would agree with.tyson said:I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
Richard_Tyndall said:
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."tyson said:I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
'I would hope that the French open the floodgates from Calais and give as many migrants as they could one way tickets on Eurostar with a complimentary glass of champers. That'll be for starters.....and no more than we deserve.'
Floodgates? That's very inflammatory language. 'no more than we deserve' - what's that if not a punishment?0 -
Interesting bit of Lexit news from the BME community
https://twitter.com/tamara_chabe/status/739235434497183748
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I thought his interviewing skills were awful. He was rude constantly interrupting and not giving opportunity to properly reply.TheScreamingEagles said:How awesome is Faisal Islam. He's just followed me on twitter!
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EU spend £1.25 million on a grant to produce 180 fledglings http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/04/the-mating-model-terns-causing-a-stir-with-brexit-campaigners/
That is about £7000 a bird.0 -
Well since I have consistently said I don't believe that it hardly contributes to the discussion.Bromptonaut said:
Which for those people (not me) who think that migrants from outside the EU have a more alien and threatening culture must be a very comforting thing.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet the difficulties they face in getting here in the first place are immeasurably more difficult than if they are from the EU.Big_G_NorthWales said:
As a remainer I absolutely reject your assertion. As long as they integrate into the UK they are welcome irrespective of their race or colour of their skin or wherever they are fromSunil_Prasannan said:
The REMAIN campaign is based on racism too, against predominantly non-white non-EU people.OllyT said:
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.OllyT said:tlg86 said:
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.Big_G_NorthWales said:Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
Given that, I can't understand why they would wish to allow proportionately more of them to enter the UK by voting LEAVE.0 -
"In previous surveys we found that the answers to a number of questions on issues such as [...] whether respondents felt more English or British produced results that were significantly more socially conservative than comparative polls or academic studies"
They probably mean "comparable".
So which is more "socially conservative" for an English person - feeling more English or feeling more British? This seems to be case number 780154 of pollsters speaking out of their backsides where qualitative considerations are concerned. It simply isn't sensible to say that feeling you're more English than British is more "conservative" than the other way round.
Personally I feel more English than British - but only slightly more.
Many Scottish friends feel a lot more Scottish than British. Which, SNP propaganda notwithstanding, doesn't stop them from feeling both.0 -
180 at a single site, according to the article, with some other conservation measures also:weejonnie said:EU spend £1.25 million on a grant to produce 180 fledglings http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/04/the-mating-model-terns-causing-a-stir-with-brexit-campaigners/
That is about £7000 a bird.
"As part of the same scheme, the money will also go towards creating new breeding sites and installing electric fences to protect the birds and their eggs from predators"0 -
Seems most ex pats living in Spain are voting Remain and together with Gibraltarians and others may deny Leave victory if it is very tight which I increasingly think it might be.0
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Yes the polling would suggest that, if Remain win it now looks likely it will be Scotland and London that take it over the lineBenedictWhite said:
Interesting. I think that leave is ahead in England without LondonHYUFD said:Opinium has Leave with a big lead in Wales, Remain narrowly ahead In England and comfortably ahead in Scotland
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I wonder how much London will swing to Remain? Especially as I am not sure the established BME community can be taken for granted.HYUFD said:
Yes the polling would suggest that, if Remain win it now looks likely it will be Scotland and London that take it over the lineBenedictWhite said:
Interesting. I think that leave is ahead in England without LondonHYUFD said:Opinium has Leave with a big lead in Wales, Remain narrowly ahead In England and comfortably ahead in Scotland
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This is so wrong. Perhaps you are saying how you would like things to be? There are important differences according to whether for example only one parent is an immigrant or both are (consider for example how that difference impacts on what food is eaten); whether the home language is or isn't English; and whether the immigrants consider themselves to be settlers or expatriates, or perhaps in the category of those who keep one foot in Britain and one abroad, such as in Hong Kong or Pakistan. A couple of brown faces in a Morris dancing team or on the local cricket side don't prove your proposition.Bromptonaut said:Children of immigrants adopt the attitudes and social mores of the host culture almost without exception.
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Of course not all Londoners, especially in the suburbs, will vote Remain but the polling generally shows the city backs Remain by around 60% to 40% compared to nearer 50% to 50% UK wideBenedictWhite said:
I wonder how much London will swing to Remain? Especially as I am not sure the established BME community can be taken for granted.HYUFD said:
Yes the polling would suggest that, if Remain win it now looks likely it will be Scotland and London that take it over the lineBenedictWhite said:
Interesting. I think that leave is ahead in England without LondonHYUFD said:Opinium has Leave with a big lead in Wales, Remain narrowly ahead In England and comfortably ahead in Scotland
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That's interesting.HYUFD said:
Of course not all Londoners, especially in the suburbs, will vote Remain but the polling generally shows the city backs Remain by around 60% to 40% compared to nearer 50% to 50% UK wideBenedictWhite said:
I wonder how much London will swing to Remain? Especially as I am not sure the established BME community can be taken for granted.HYUFD said:
Yes the polling would suggest that, if Remain win it now looks likely it will be Scotland and London that take it over the lineBenedictWhite said:
Interesting. I think that leave is ahead in England without LondonHYUFD said:Opinium has Leave with a big lead in Wales, Remain narrowly ahead In England and comfortably ahead in Scotland
I wonder what the turnout will be like.0 -
No-one's staring in disbelief at my willy suspensionRoger said:
Only that 'Leave' have pushed credibility further than I ever thought they'd get away with. Their broadcast was nonsense but they seem to have got away with it. I'm certain if they go any further the public's willing suspension of disbelief will be tested beyond breaking point.MTimT said:
So you're saying that Remain will adapt their message now (having blown through all their fear ammunition already), but Leave will do nothing further from this point on? Is there a reason to believe one side only will react from this point on?Roger said:
All 'Leaves' messages have been picked up. They couldn't have hoped for more. Now we'll wait to see Remain articulate a response and find a theme for the last few weeks. I could give them a few ideas but their researchers will already be on the caseBenedictWhite said:
Why do you think it is a high water mark? Do you think leave is going to tail off?Roger said:Luckyguy1983 said:Roger said:Mortimer said:Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.
Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....0 -
It's a big mistake to equate Brexit with dislike of globalisation though. I'm an internationalist which is why I support Brexit against the closed shop centrist unelected undemocratic decaying post-war fossil called the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Cultures evolve, and always have. The rate of change has increased, but that is true everywhere I go in Europe or outside. America is a very different place to when I lived there in the 1970's, Australia very different to when I first went in 1987. Even Malawi changes each time I visit, becoming more Western each time. Elders there deplore the pernicious influence of American Rappers and Chinese businessmen.AnneJGP said:
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.tyson said:A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
AnneJGP said:
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over CalaisAnneJGP said:I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
The dislike of this globalisation change does drive populist movements everywhere, from Trumpism to ISIS, though I would not equate the two.0 -
I doubt turnout will be much different to the rest of the country, goodnightBenedictWhite said:
That's interesting.HYUFD said:
Of course not all Londoners, especially in the suburbs, will vote Remain but the polling generally shows the city backs Remain by around 60% to 40% compared to nearer 50% to 50% UK wideBenedictWhite said:
I wonder how much London will swing to Remain? Especially as I am not sure the established BME community can be taken for granted.HYUFD said:
Yes the polling would suggest that, if Remain win it now looks likely it will be Scotland and London that take it over the lineBenedictWhite said:
Interesting. I think that leave is ahead in England without LondonHYUFD said:Opinium has Leave with a big lead in Wales, Remain narrowly ahead In England and comfortably ahead in Scotland
I wonder what the turnout will be like.0 -
Good night.HYUFD said:
I doubt turnout will be much different to the rest of the country, goodnightBenedictWhite said:
That's interesting.HYUFD said:
Of course not all Londoners, especially in the suburbs, will vote Remain but the polling generally shows the city backs Remain by around 60% to 40% compared to nearer 50% to 50% UK wideBenedictWhite said:
I wonder how much London will swing to Remain? Especially as I am not sure the established BME community can be taken for granted.HYUFD said:
Yes the polling would suggest that, if Remain win it now looks likely it will be Scotland and London that take it over the lineBenedictWhite said:
Interesting. I think that leave is ahead in England without LondonHYUFD said:Opinium has Leave with a big lead in Wales, Remain narrowly ahead In England and comfortably ahead in Scotland
I wonder what the turnout will be like.0 -
If Chilcot fingers the PM and secret squirrels rather than a pr man, surely that is the opposite of whitewash?FrancisUrquhart said:
In other news, I was down at B&Q today and they said there is a nationwide shortage of whitewash. Apparently massive bulk order came in, like nothing they had every seen before.TheScreamingEagles said:The Sunday Times are reporting The Chilcot report will clear Alastair Campbell of any serious wrong doing and blame the spooks and Tony Blair.
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