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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New Opinium poll has Remain still ahead but under their old

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  • OllyT said:

    weejonnie said:

    When was the last poll to show a swing to Remain not resulting from a methodological change?

    Ipsos Mori 17th May? 49-39 ==> 55-37 - although the consensus is that it was an outlier
    Thanks. So basically Leave has had the momentum (if not the Momentum!) for some time. Have Remain got anything else to throw at the campaign to switch things back in their direction?
    No doubt things have swung towards Leave recently but by the same token in the last week Leave have played the immigration card to destruction and pushed on with the saving £350m a week line and yet they are still losing in an online poll.

    So , to reverse your question, what have Leave got left?.

    I expect that in the home straight Remain will ramp up the economic risks focus and if this referendum does follow past experiences there will be a swing back to the status quo in the latter stages. I would have thought that Leave we need to be showing an across the board lead of about 5% at this stage to be feeling confident.
    If the polls are accurate. Which is still a big if.

    Without this rather odd methodology change Brexit are 4% ahesd.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    OllyT said:

    weejonnie said:

    When was the last poll to show a swing to Remain not resulting from a methodological change?

    Ipsos Mori 17th May? 49-39 ==> 55-37 - although the consensus is that it was an outlier
    Thanks. So basically Leave has had the momentum (if not the Momentum!) for some time. Have Remain got anything else to throw at the campaign to switch things back in their direction?
    No doubt things have swung towards Leave recently but by the same token in the last week Leave have played the immigration card to destruction and pushed on with the saving £350m a week line and yet they are still losing in an online poll.

    So , to reverse your question, what have Leave got left?.

    I expect that in the home straight Remain will ramp up the economic risks focus and if this referendum does follow past experiences there will be a swing back to the status quo in the latter stages. I would have thought that Leave we need to be showing an across the board lead of about 5% at this stage to be feeling confident.
    According to Gove, last night they will set out their economic plans next week. I hope so, I've been emailing furiously.
    To me this has 'danger' written all over it. It seems (like much of Brexit the movie, which I liked), to be an audition for a new economically liberal Toryism rather than an attempt to win a referendum.
    I'd agree, but it depends on what is in it.

    If it is all about labour market deregulation then Leave is buggered.

    If it is about market liberalisation and removing some daft regulations combined with projecting the effect of new trade deals then it could be good.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,432
    welshowl said:

    Looking at the Ramshaggers Welsh subsample, Pulpstar's going to win his Wales bet.

    Noble thoughtful Dragon of people apparently coming to the right conclusion, you mean?
    Noble Dragon People? Who do you think you are? Daenerys Targaryen?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    welshowl said:

    Looking at the Ramshaggers Welsh subsample, Pulpstar's going to win his Wales bet.

    Noble thoughtful Dragon of people apparently coming to the right conclusion, you mean?
    Noble Dragon People? Who do you think you are? Daenerys Targaryen?
    Don't bring her into the conversation, I'll go all of a quiver.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,432

    Tsk, Vote Remain to send a message to the Neo Nazis

    //twitter.com/suttonnick/status/739194359296495621

    Yeah we LEAVERs are ALL closet goose-steppers :lol:
    So tell me what first attracted the far right/Neo Nazis to Brexit and Leave?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,432
    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Looking at the Ramshaggers Welsh subsample, Pulpstar's going to win his Wales bet.

    Noble thoughtful Dragon of people apparently coming to the right conclusion, you mean?
    Noble Dragon People? Who do you think you are? Daenerys Targaryen?
    Don't bring her into the conversation, I'll go all of a quiver.
    Me too. She's fab in the film Me Before You.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,432
    Anyhoo, that's the morning thread sorted out.

    *Innocent Face*
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,414

    Tsk, Vote Remain to send a message to the Neo Nazis

    //twitter.com/suttonnick/status/739194359296495621

    Yeah we LEAVERs are ALL closet goose-steppers :lol:
    So tell me what first attracted the far right/Neo Nazis to Brexit and Leave?
    Remember, like REMAIN do currently, Anti-semitic Adolf believed in a single European Superstate!
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited June 2016
    How many different changes of methodology have there been since May 2015.. ?

    Who can trust any poll? I certainly trust none.. the only thing that is certain that trust in the Tories is falling, and unsurprising too. Some of the Tory MP's are a disgrace.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,266

    OllyT said:

    weejonnie said:

    When was the last poll to show a swing to Remain not resulting from a methodological change?

    Ipsos Mori 17th May? 49-39 ==> 55-37 - although the consensus is that it was an outlier
    Thanks. So basically Leave has had the momentum (if not the Momentum!) for some time. Have Remain got anything else to throw at the campaign to switch things back in their direction?
    No doubt things have swung towards Leave recently but by the same token in the last week Leave have played the immigration card to destruction and pushed on with the saving £350m a week line and yet they are still losing in an online poll.

    So , to reverse your question, what have Leave got left?.

    I expect that in the home straight Remain will ramp up the economic risks focus and if this referendum does follow past experiences there will be a swing back to the status quo in the latter stages. I would have thought that Leave we need to be showing an across the board lead of about 5% at this stage to be feeling confident.
    According to Gove, last night they will set out their economic plans next week. I hope so, I've been emailing furiously.
    To me this has 'danger' written all over it. It seems (like much of Brexit the movie, which I liked), to be an audition for a new economically liberal Toryism rather than an attempt to win a referendum.
    I'd agree, but it depends on what is in it.

    If it is all about labour market deregulation then Leave is buggered.

    If it is about market liberalisation and removing some daft regulations combined with projecting the effect of new trade deals then it could be good.
    I'm not sure it does depend what's in it, because whatever is or isn't in it, there will be something that the other side can frame as a drawback, raise questions over, pick holes in etc.

    It's been such a fascinating and deeply odd campaign. Leavers who don't really want to Leave, Remainers who don't want to Remain, everyone with subtly different and very difficult to read agendas.

    I think it's in the lap of Providence now. Leave and Remain have given the hornet's nest a good poke, but the end result (assuming there's no significant workable plan for electoral fraud) is now almost entirely out of their hands.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    It was Derby day today - did anyone notice ?

    I posted the winner. Nobody noticed...
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    GeoffM said:

    Jobabob said:

    Leave is not going to happen. The UK is not going to vote to leave the EU.

    Welcome back, Mr Last Bobajob Boy Scout.
    You've not lost any of your cutting political analysis, it seems!
    The most remarkable thing about this campaign is that I give it all for free Geoff!
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    OllyT said:

    weejonnie said:

    When was the last poll to show a swing to Remain not resulting from a methodological change?

    Ipsos Mori 17th May? 49-39 ==> 55-37 - although the consensus is that it was an outlier
    Thanks. So basically Leave has had the momentum (if not the Momentum!) for some time. Have Remain got anything else to throw at the campaign to switch things back in their direction?
    No doubt things have swung towards Leave recently but by the same token in the last week Leave have played the immigration card to destruction and pushed on with the saving £350m a week line and yet they are still losing in an online poll.

    So , to reverse your question, what have Leave got left?.

    I expect that in the home straight Remain will ramp up the economic risks focus and if this referendum does follow past experiences there will be a swing back to the status quo in the latter stages. I would have thought that Leave we need to be showing an across the board lead of about 5% at this stage to be feeling confident.
    According to Gove, last night they will set out their economic plans next week. I hope so, I've been emailing furiously.
    To me this has 'danger' written all over it. It seems (like much of Brexit the movie, which I liked), to be an audition for a new economically liberal Toryism rather than an attempt to win a referendum.
    I'd agree, but it depends on what is in it.

    If it is all about labour market deregulation then Leave is buggered.

    If it is about market liberalisation and removing some daft regulations combined with projecting the effect of new trade deals then it could be good.
    I'm not sure it does depend what's in it, because whatever is or isn't in it, there will be something that the other side can frame as a drawback, raise questions over, pick holes in etc.

    It's been such a fascinating and deeply odd campaign. Leavers who don't really want to Leave, Remainers who don't want to Remain, everyone with subtly different and very difficult to read agendas.

    I think it's in the lap of Providence now. Leave and Remain have given the hornet's nest a good poke, but the end result (assuming there's no significant workable plan for electoral fraud) is now almost entirely out of their hands.
    Thing is that in the Purdah period they can't wheel out a treasury report to rubbish leaves manifesto which limits their movements somewhat.

    It makes it harder to pick holes in.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,312
    Scott_P said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    It was Derby day today - did anyone notice ?

    I posted the winner. Nobody noticed...
    I did! My brother-in-law was on it.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Tsk, Vote Remain to send a message to the Neo Nazis

    https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/739194359296495621

    It's interesting to see how different MoS is to daily mail on BREXIT.
    Endgame for the Latvian homophobes.

  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,152
    Scott_P said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    It was Derby day today - did anyone notice ?

    I posted the winner. Nobody noticed...
    I noticed. Congratulations. I didn't know it was Derby day until I saw your post.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    tlg86 said:

    I did! My brother-in-law was on it.

    The jockey?
  • Roughly what proportion of polling methodology changes result in a movement towards (as oppsed to away from) the mean of all other polls and what proportion should we expect in the absence of any herding tendency (as if....)?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    viewcode said:

    So they pollster opens the door & offers you the results based on the new model, do you stick or switch?

    It depends on how many goats conducted the survey.
    Remind me. If Monty Hall has a goat behind the second door...
    The interesting thing about Monty Hall is that if Monty presented the game differently, but still logically the same, the vast majority of people would get it right, instead of the vast majority getting it wrong.

    Monty: Here's the game, three doors, two goats, one car. Now would you like to open one door, or open two?
    Contestant: Well, two, obviously!
    Monty: OK, pick your two doors, and I'll open the first one for you.
    Contestant: [after opening the other door, not unduly surprised] Wow, I won the car!

    A slight variation could be Monty saying "OK, pick a door... Now would you like to swap to picking [the other] two doors?"
    Perhaps slightly fewer than in the above, but I reckon still a majority would do the logical thing.

    Where the Monty Hall problem, as classically presented, throws most people is in the following areas:-

    i) They've already picked a door. Once they've made a decision people don't like to change unless it's obvious they should.
    ii) Why is Monty asking me to change? After all, he knows what's behind all doors. He must want me to lose.
    iii) Cripes! He's just revealed a goat behind one of the other doors. Negative feelings of loss are re-inforced.
    iv) The illusion of uniformity in probability. The seeming two remaining options [stick or open the remaining door] must be equiprobable in delivering the car, which takes me back to i). Except they're not!

    So, emotions have overwhelmed the rational mind, leading to an incorrect decision.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,150
    Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,432
    The Sunday Times are reporting The Chilcot report will clear Alastair Campbell of any serious wrong doing and blame the spooks and Tony Blair.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited June 2016


    I'm not sure it does depend what's in it, because whatever is or isn't in it, there will be something that the other side can frame as a drawback, raise questions over, pick holes in etc.

    It's been such a fascinating and deeply odd campaign. Leavers who don't really want to Leave, Remainers who don't want to Remain, everyone with subtly different and very difficult to read agendas.

    I think it's in the lap of Providence now. Leave and Remain have given the hornet's nest a good poke, but the end result (assuming there's no significant workable plan for electoral fraud) is now almost entirely out of their hands.

    I have a fairly strong feeling that if we vote to Leave it will force the rationalisation of Europe into two groups; the Union, with those in the currency, and the Free Trade Area with those who are not and who will not accept social intrusion and imposition.

    The people around the continent will force their politicians to make their minds up. No halfway in, halfway out.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Scott_P said:

    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe

    Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,266



    Thing is that in the Purdah period they can't wheel out a treasury report to rubbish leaves manifesto which limits their movements somewhat.

    It makes it harder to pick holes in.

    Well, if the Cameronites are toppled and a Vote Leaver does take his place (not the disappointment it's the hope etc.), I'm very pleased that an economic plan will be there. I'm just not sure I see a case for a grand unveiling at this point. The civil service will still be working overtime to rebut it, it just won't come with a Treasury stamp. I also hope it refrains from feeling like a jubilant victory lap before the game has been won.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,312

    Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach

    At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited June 2016

    The Sunday Times are reporting The Chilcot report will clear Alastair Campbell of any serious wrong doing and blame the spooks and Tony Blair.

    In other news, I was down at B&Q today and they said there is a nationwide shortage of whitewash. Apparently massive bulk order came in, like nothing they had every seen before.
  • Scott_P said:

    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe

    Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
    I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,150
    tlg86 said:

    Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach

    At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
    The story is hostile to leave but the point I am making is the two papers seem to be on opposite sides
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    edited June 2016

    Roger said:

    Mortimer said:

    Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.

    Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....

    I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.

    I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.

    They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
    I'm not sure there is time for any convincing now. It's GOTV time. Leave need to massively push for their angry hordes to be registered, able, and definitely voting (how they do that I don't know), and Leave need to do whatever they can to mobilise their supporters, like students.

    I've heard and seen nothing that convinces me Leave is in the lead. I think that Remain are accepting and perhaps even encouraging this narrative, to scare the Remain-minded and to induce complacency amongst Leavers. It may or may not work, but it's worth trying.


    What convinces me 'Leave' are doing well is that every vox pop you hear -and there are plenty-parrot the 'Leave' campaign. Turkey-£350 million a week-NHS going down the toilet -immigration. They're making all the connections and then the immigration figures came out. Couldn't be worse for 'Remain' which is why I think this could be 'Leave's' high water mark.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    OllyT said:

    weejonnie said:

    When was the last poll to show a swing to Remain not resulting from a methodological change?

    Ipsos Mori 17th May? 49-39 ==> 55-37 - although the consensus is that it was an outlier
    Thanks. So basically Leave has had the momentum (if not the Momentum!) for some time. Have Remain got anything else to throw at the campaign to switch things back in their direction?
    No doubt things have swung towards Leave recently but by the same token in the last week Leave have played the immigration card to destruction and pushed on with the saving £350m a week line and yet they are still losing in an online poll.

    So , to reverse your question, what have Leave got left?.

    I expect that in the home straight Remain will ramp up the economic risks focus and if this referendum does follow past experiences there will be a swing back to the status quo in the latter stages. I would have thought that Leave we need to be showing an across the board lead of about 5% at this stage to be feeling confident.
    According to Gove, last night they will set out their economic plans next week. I hope so, I've been emailing furiously.
    My gut instinct is that shifting the debate back onto economics is a mistake for Leave.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Well, if the Cameronites are toppled and a Vote Leaver does take his place (not the disappointment it's the hope etc.), I'm very pleased that an economic plan will be there.

    If you have seen the pledges, they do not amount to an economic plan.

    We'll spend more on stuff you like, and less on stuff you don't.

    Even Ed would be embarrassed to call it a plan.
  • The Sunday Times are reporting The Chilcot report will clear Alastair Campbell of any serious wrong doing and blame the spooks and Tony Blair.

    If that scumbag gets off scot free it will be just as meaningful as the Hutton enquiry. A neutron star of whitewash.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,150
    chestnut said:


    I'm not sure it does depend what's in it, because whatever is or isn't in it, there will be something that the other side can frame as a drawback, raise questions over, pick holes in etc.

    It's been such a fascinating and deeply odd campaign. Leavers who don't really want to Leave, Remainers who don't want to Remain, everyone with subtly different and very difficult to read agendas.

    I think it's in the lap of Providence now. Leave and Remain have given the hornet's nest a good poke, but the end result (assuming there's no significant workable plan for electoral fraud) is now almost entirely out of their hands.

    I have a fairly strong feeling that if we vote to Leave it will force the rationalisation of Europe into two groups; the Union, with those in the currency, and the Free Trade Area with those who are not and who will not accept social intrusion and imposition.

    The people around the continent will force their politicians to make their minds up. No halfway in, halfway out.
    I believe that is going to happen irrespective of the result. The EU is facing big changes over the next few years
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited June 2016
    Scott_P said:

    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe

    Not sure why.

    We leave, we impose a Citizenship requirement on welfare to go with the visa requirement for work and the migrants would probably stay in Dublin where EU rules would compel the Irish to treat them equally on welfare and work.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    The punter who put in £10k. The Inland Revenue should check if it was taxed money.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944



    Thing is that in the Purdah period they can't wheel out a treasury report to rubbish leaves manifesto which limits their movements somewhat.

    It makes it harder to pick holes in.

    Well, if the Cameronites are toppled and a Vote Leaver does take his place (not the disappointment it's the hope etc.), I'm very pleased that an economic plan will be there. I'm just not sure I see a case for a grand unveiling at this point. The civil service will still be working overtime to rebut it, it just won't come with a Treasury stamp. I also hope it refrains from feeling like a jubilant victory lap before the game has been won.
    I think the broad idea is to neutralise the economy issue whilst owning the media grid.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,414
    Scott_P said:

    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe

    Why? Both the UK and Republic are outside Schengen.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    Scott_P said:

    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe

    Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
    I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
    People like to make a thing of it on here.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171
    surbiton said:

    The punter who put in £10k. The Inland Revenue should check if it was taxed money.

    Why?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    The Sunday Times are reporting The Chilcot report will clear Alastair Campbell of any serious wrong doing and blame the spooks and Tony Blair.

    If that scumbag gets off scot free it will be just as meaningful as the Hutton enquiry. A neutron star of whitewash.
    You cannot possibly believe Campbell started the Iraq War. You can be as critical as you like that he loyally stood by that evil Bliar but surely that is not the same as being responsible for the war.

    If I remember correctly the Chair of the JIC was later promoted to head MI5 or MI6. Great !
    The Intelligence that could not distinguish between an Ice Cream van and a mobile biological factory.

    I wonder Colin Powell is today with his UNSC speech.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591

    The Sunday Times are reporting The Chilcot report will clear Alastair Campbell of any serious wrong doing and blame the spooks and Tony Blair.

    If that scumbag gets off scot free it will be just as meaningful as the Hutton enquiry. A neutron star of whitewash.
    And then you might like to ask why the medical reports of David Kelly have been closed for 70 years by the Hutton report:

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/jan/25/david-kelly-suicide-hutton-inquiry

    Nothing to hide there, surely not! Its utterly pathetic. And to think when the Chilcott report started off its work in 2009, it was going to report in 18 months. Not to mention the all too convenient reporting after the EU referendum is out of the way on the 23rd June. The establishment, as on so many other things are taking us for fools. Its time to send them a bloody nose after all their economic bull$hit fearmongering during the course of this campaign.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    Sean_F said:

    Mortimer said:

    Roger said:

    Mortimer said:

    Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.

    Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....

    I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.

    I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.

    They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
    Just when I'm feeling jittery, Rogerdamus comes up trumps and reinvigorates my faith in Leave winning!
    It's hard to tell. It may be that there will be a swing back to Remain in the last fortnight.

    Or there may now be a bandwagon for Leave.
    I spoke to someone at Vote Leave on Thursday, he reckoned Leave needed to be about 7% ahead in the polls before he would feel confident about Leave winning.

    He said the polls weren't factoring in Northern Ireland and Expats, combined with Gibraltar he thought that would be worth 2% to Remain, then about a 2-3% swing to Remain on voting day as people back the status quo.
    If I were in Leave HQ I would agree, I'd also keep hammering away to get the biggest lead I could.

    However my experience is that remainers are very unenthusiastic. That will hit remain on the day as well.
    I genuinely believe that the best hope of getting the unenthusiastic Remainers out on polling day and getting a good turnout is the possibility that Leave could win.
  • Scott_P said:

    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe

    Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
    I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
    People like to make a thing of it on here.
    And at the Grauniad it seems.

    There is also the slight matter of how millions of undesirables without paperwork are going to get into RoI in the furst place given it is about 150 miles by sea from mainland Europe and sirlines and ferries take a dim view of stowaways since PIRA days never mind the modern terrorist nutjobs.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Mortimer said:

    Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.

    Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....

    I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.

    I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.

    They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
    I'm not sure there is time for any convincing now. It's GOTV time. Leave need to massively push for their angry hordes to be registered, able, and definitely voting (how they do that I don't know), and Leave need to do whatever they can to mobilise their supporters, like students.

    I've heard and seen nothing that convinces me Leave is in the lead. I think that Remain are accepting and perhaps even encouraging this narrative, to scare the Remain-minded and to induce complacency amongst Leavers. It may or may not work, but it's worth trying.


    What convinces me 'Leave' are doing well is that every vox pop you hear -and there are plenty-parrot the 'Leave' campaign. Turkey-£350 million a week-NHS going down the toilet -immigration. They're making all the connections and then the immigration figures came out. Couldn't be worse for 'Remain' which is why I think this could be 'Leave's' high water mark.
    Why do you think it is a high water mark? Do you think leave is going to tail off?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,938

    Scott_P said:

    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe

    Why? Both the UK and Republic are outside Schengen.
    Indeed; the Common Travel Area is far older than Schengen.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    weejonnie said:

    When was the last poll to show a swing to Remain not resulting from a methodological change?

    Ipsos Mori 17th May? 49-39 ==> 55-37 - although the consensus is that it was an outlier
    Thanks. So basically Leave has had the momentum (if not the Momentum!) for some time. Have Remain got anything else to throw at the campaign to switch things back in their direction?
    No doubt things have swung towards Leave recently but by the same token in the last week Leave have played the immigration card to destruction and pushed on with the saving £350m a week line and yet they are still losing in an online poll.

    So , to reverse your question, what have Leave got left?.

    I expect that in the home straight Remain will ramp up the economic risks focus and if this referendum does follow past experiences there will be a swing back to the status quo in the latter stages. I would have thought that Leave we need to be showing an across the board lead of about 5% at this stage to be feeling confident.
    According to Gove, last night they will set out their economic plans next week. I hope so, I've been emailing furiously.
    My gut instinct is that shifting the debate back onto economics is a mistake for Leave.
    Not if they can neutralise it or look like they have a plan.

    It does have to be one that unions will accept though.
  • Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Mortimer said:

    Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.

    Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....

    I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.

    I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.

    They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
    I'm not sure there is time for any convincing now. It's GOTV time. Leave need to massively push for their angry hordes to be registered, able, and definitely voting (how they do that I don't know), and Leave need to do whatever they can to mobilise their supporters, like students.

    I've heard and seen nothing that convinces me Leave is in the lead. I think that Remain are accepting and perhaps even encouraging this narrative, to scare the Remain-minded and to induce complacency amongst Leavers. It may or may not work, but it's worth trying.


    What convinces me 'Leave' are doing well is that every vox pop you hear -and there are plenty-parrot the 'Leave' campaign. Turkey-£350 million a week-NHS going down the toilet -immigration. They're making all the connections and then the immigration figures came out. Couldn't be worse for 'Remain' which is why I think this could be 'Leave's' high water mark.
    Why do you think it is a high water mark? Do you think leave is going to tail off?
    Because it is the only thing giving them hope
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    The punter who put in £10k. The Inland Revenue should check if it was taxed money.

    Why?
    Don't ask sensible questions like that!

    Ihre papiere, bitte is fine, right?
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Scott_P said:

    Well, if the Cameronites are toppled and a Vote Leaver does take his place (not the disappointment it's the hope etc.), I'm very pleased that an economic plan will be there.

    If you have seen the pledges, they do not amount to an economic plan.

    We'll spend more on stuff you like, and less on stuff you don't.

    Even Ed would be embarrassed to call it a plan.
    The pledge card is not what Gove was talking about. Pledge cards are always in the eye of the beholder. They are somewhat more practical than a pledge tablet though... :D
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,933

    Scott_P said:

    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe

    Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
    I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
    People like to make a thing of it on here.
    All these sensible compromises are things that would have to be negotiated and viewed from the other side might be regarded as concessions to make our life easier. What would we give in return?

    Some of the more excitable Brexiters have been quoting the Vienna Convention of 1969 to argue that acquired rights of British citizens will be protected. Again this cuts both ways. If the EU's starting position is that the UK is obliged to maintain all current EU citizens' rights to settle in the UK, what will we offer to make them change their opinion?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,432
    edited June 2016

    The Sunday Times are reporting The Chilcot report will clear Alastair Campbell of any serious wrong doing and blame the spooks and Tony Blair.

    If that scumbag gets off scot free it will be just as meaningful as the Hutton enquiry. A neutron star of whitewash.
    Even a friend of Campbell is calling it 'The Campbell whitewash'

    https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/739200455750848513
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    OllyT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mortimer said:

    Roger said:

    Mortimer said:

    Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.

    Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....

    I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.

    I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.

    They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
    Just when I'm feeling jittery, Rogerdamus comes up trumps and reinvigorates my faith in Leave winning!
    It's hard to tell. It may be that there will be a swing back to Remain in the last fortnight.

    Or there may now be a bandwagon for Leave.
    I spoke to someone at Vote Leave on Thursday, he reckoned Leave needed to be about 7% ahead in the polls before he would feel confident about Leave winning.

    He said the polls weren't factoring in Northern Ireland and Expats, combined with Gibraltar he thought that would be worth 2% to Remain, then about a 2-3% swing to Remain on voting day as people back the status quo.
    If I were in Leave HQ I would agree, I'd also keep hammering away to get the biggest lead I could.

    However my experience is that remainers are very unenthusiastic. That will hit remain on the day as well.
    I genuinely believe that the best hope of getting the unenthusiastic Remainers out on polling day and getting a good turnout is the possibility that Leave could win.
    Might be something in this.

    Literally everything else doesn't seem to be working for Remain.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @newsundayherald: Scottish Labour consulting on becoming an 'independent' party
    Full story in tomorrow's paper
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,312

    tlg86 said:

    Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach

    At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
    The story is hostile to leave but the point I am making is the two papers seem to be on opposite sides
    I know, but I wouldn't assume the papers are on opposite sides. I can imagine Mail/MoS readers getting annoyed to see Leave being smeared with association with the Far Right.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    edited June 2016
    Mortimer said:

    OllyT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mortimer said:

    Roger said:

    Mortimer said:

    Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.

    Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....

    I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.

    I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.

    They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
    Just when I'm feeling jittery, Rogerdamus comes up trumps and reinvigorates my faith in Leave winning!
    It's hard to tell. It may be that there will be a swing back to Remain in the last fortnight.

    Or there may now be a bandwagon for Leave.
    I spoke to someone at Vote Leave on Thursday, he reckoned Leave needed to be about 7% ahead in the polls before he would feel confident about Leave winning.

    He said the polls weren't factoring in Northern Ireland and Expats, combined with Gibraltar he thought that would be worth 2% to Remain, then about a 2-3% swing to Remain on voting day as people back the status quo.
    If I were in Leave HQ I would agree, I'd also keep hammering away to get the biggest lead I could.

    However my experience is that remainers are very unenthusiastic. That will hit remain on the day as well.
    I genuinely believe that the best hope of getting the unenthusiastic Remainers out on polling day and getting a good turnout is the possibility that Leave could win.
    Might be something in this.

    Literally everything else doesn't seem to be working for Remain.
    Unenthusiastic Remainers are surely by definition not too bothered by LEAVE.
  • Scott_P said:

    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe

    Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
    I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
    People like to make a thing of it on here.
    All these sensible compromises are things that would have to be negotiated and viewed from the other side might be regarded as concessions to make our life easier. What would we give in return?

    Some of the more excitable Brexiters have been quoting the Vienna Convention of 1969 to argue that acquired rights of British citizens will be protected. Again this cuts both ways. If the EU's starting position is that the UK is obliged to maintain all current EU citizens' rights to settle in the UK, what will we offer to make them change their opinion?
    Look, if we seal the Inner Irish border and impose trade tariffs on them their economy would collapse we are not planning to do it and they are not stupid enough to goad us into doing it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Mortimer said:

    Literally everything else doesn't seem to be working for Remain.

    That's what the Yes campaign said.

    Then lost by 10 points
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    Scott_P said:

    @newsundayherald: Scottish Labour consulting on becoming an 'independent' party
    Full story in tomorrow's paper

    Corbynism sweeping the nation..
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,150
    OllyT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mortimer said:

    Roger said:

    Mortimer said:

    Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.

    Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....

    I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.

    I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.

    They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
    Just when I'm feeling jittery, Rogerdamus comes up trumps and reinvigorates my faith in Leave winning!
    It's hard to tell. It may be that there will be a swing back to Remain in the last fortnight.

    Or there may now be a bandwagon for Leave.
    I spoke to someone at Vote Leave on Thursday, he reckoned Leave needed to be about 7% ahead in the polls before he would feel confident about Leave winning.

    He said the polls weren't factoring in Northern Ireland and Expats, combined with Gibraltar he thought that would be worth 2% to Remain, then about a 2-3% swing to Remain on voting day as people back the status quo.
    If I were in Leave HQ I would agree, I'd also keep hammering away to get the biggest lead I could.

    However my experience is that remainers are very unenthusiastic. That will hit remain on the day as well.
    I genuinely believe that the best hope of getting the unenthusiastic Remainers out on polling day and getting a good turnout is the possibility that Leave could win.
    Agreed
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171
    Scott_P said:

    @newsundayherald: Scottish Labour consulting on becoming an 'independent' party
    Full story in tomorrow's paper

    I wonder what they'd call themselves.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,266
    Scott_P said:

    Well, if the Cameronites are toppled and a Vote Leaver does take his place (not the disappointment it's the hope etc.), I'm very pleased that an economic plan will be there.

    If you have seen the pledges, they do not amount to an economic plan.

    We'll spend more on stuff you like, and less on stuff you don't.

    Even Ed would be embarrassed to call it a plan.
    I haven't seen them. Lists of pledges are utterly cringe-worthy, especially when those making them have no guaranteed ability to implement them even in the event of winning.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,414
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @newsundayherald: Scottish Labour consulting on becoming an 'independent' party
    Full story in tomorrow's paper

    I wonder what they'd call themselves.
    The Scottish Un-national Party
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,933

    Scott_P said:

    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe

    Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
    I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
    People like to make a thing of it on here.
    All these sensible compromises are things that would have to be negotiated and viewed from the other side might be regarded as concessions to make our life easier. What would we give in return?

    Some of the more excitable Brexiters have been quoting the Vienna Convention of 1969 to argue that acquired rights of British citizens will be protected. Again this cuts both ways. If the EU's starting position is that the UK is obliged to maintain all current EU citizens' rights to settle in the UK, what will we offer to make them change their opinion?
    Look, if we seal the Inner Irish border and impose trade tariffs on them their economy would collapse we are not planning to do it and they are not stupid enough to goad us into doing it.
    'Little' Ireland would not be alone and you're not seeing this in the context of the broader negotiations with the EU. Your attitude towards the Irish seems to be they they are little more than a colonial possession that got away.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,432
    Well this is odd, The Observer are reporting the Opinium poll as a 3 point lead for LEAVE

    The leave campaign has picked up momentum and taken a three point lead over remain in the latest Observer/Opinium poll on the EU referendum. The Brexiters now stand on 43%, while 40% say they support the campaign to keep the UK in the union.

    The poll suggests the remain camp has lost four percentage points in the last two weeks, during which Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have relentlessly campaigned on the theme of immigration.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/04/poll-eu-brexit-lead-opinium?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    The punter who put in £10k. The Inland Revenue should check if it was taxed money.

    Why?
    Money Laundering Regulations. Betting is a good way of cleaning up dirty money.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,414

    Well this is odd, The Observer are reporting the Opinium poll as a 3 point lead for LEAVE

    The leave campaign has picked up momentum and taken a three point lead over remain in the latest Observer/Opinium poll on the EU referendum. The Brexiters now stand on 43%, while 40% say they support the campaign to keep the UK in the union.

    The poll suggests the remain camp has lost four percentage points in the last two weeks, during which Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have relentlessly campaigned on the theme of immigration.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/04/poll-eu-brexit-lead-opinium?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics

    Looks like they rounded DOWN the % for LEAVE?
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    tlg86 said:

    Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach

    At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
    Am I psychic or what - Left-wing thugs will promote violence and then blame the victims - happening right now at a County in the USA.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,266

    Well this is odd, The Observer are reporting the Opinium poll as a 3 point lead for LEAVE

    The leave campaign has picked up momentum and taken a three point lead over remain in the latest Observer/Opinium poll on the EU referendum. The Brexiters now stand on 43%, while 40% say they support the campaign to keep the UK in the union.

    The poll suggests the remain camp has lost four percentage points in the last two weeks, during which Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have relentlessly campaigned on the theme of immigration.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/04/poll-eu-brexit-lead-opinium?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics

    The Observer being a Remain sympathising paper; I can only interpret that as adding weight to the theory that Leave complacency and Remain fear are being fostered deliberately by a largely imagined polling rally.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171

    Well this is odd, The Observer are reporting the Opinium poll as a 3 point lead for LEAVE

    The leave campaign has picked up momentum and taken a three point lead over remain in the latest Observer/Opinium poll on the EU referendum. The Brexiters now stand on 43%, while 40% say they support the campaign to keep the UK in the union.

    The poll suggests the remain camp has lost four percentage points in the last two weeks, during which Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have relentlessly campaigned on the theme of immigration.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/04/poll-eu-brexit-lead-opinium?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics

    OT.. while the jumper is nice, I think this is all round a better picture ;)
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,006

    OllyT said:

    weejonnie said:

    When was the last poll to show a swing to Remain not resulting from a methodological change?

    Ipsos Mori 17th May? 49-39 ==> 55-37 - although the consensus is that it was an outlier
    Thanks. So basically Leave has had the momentum (if not the Momentum!) for some time. Have Remain got anything else to throw at the campaign to switch things back in their direction?
    No doubt things have swung towards Leave recently but by the same token in the last week Leave have played the immigration card to destruction and pushed on with the saving £350m a week line and yet they are still losing in an online poll.

    So , to reverse your question, what have Leave got left?.

    I expect that in the home straight Remain will ramp up the economic risks focus and if this referendum does follow past experiences there will be a swing back to the status quo in the latter stages. I would have thought that Leave we need to be showing an across the board lead of about 5% at this stage to be feeling confident.
    If the polls are accurate. Which is still a big if.

    Without this rather odd methodology change Brexit are 4% ahesd.

    You didn't seem too bothered about the accuracy of the polls when you were making your "You're not singing any more" comments recently.

    Pollsters have their reputations and future business on the line so if they have changed their methodology then they clearly believe that the old methodology showing Brexit 4 points ahead is wrong.

    The reasons for changing it seem pretty sound to me, perhaps you could expand on what you find is "odd" about it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171
    weejonnie said:

    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    The punter who put in £10k. The Inland Revenue should check if it was taxed money.

    Why?
    Money Laundering Regulations. Betting is a good way of cleaning up dirty money.
    Doesn't sound like a particularly safe bet though!
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    OllyT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mortimer said:

    Roger said:

    Mortimer said:

    Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.

    Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....

    I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.

    I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.

    They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
    Just when I'm feeling jittery, Rogerdamus comes up trumps and reinvigorates my faith in Leave winning!
    It's hard to tell. It may be that there will be a swing back to Remain in the last fortnight.

    Or there may now be a bandwagon for Leave.
    I spoke to someone at Vote Leave on Thursday, he reckoned Leave needed to be about 7% ahead in the polls before he would feel confident about Leave winning.

    He said the polls weren't factoring in Northern Ireland and Expats, combined with Gibraltar he thought that would be worth 2% to Remain, then about a 2-3% swing to Remain on voting day as people back the status quo.
    If I were in Leave HQ I would agree, I'd also keep hammering away to get the biggest lead I could.

    However my experience is that remainers are very unenthusiastic. That will hit remain on the day as well.
    I genuinely believe that the best hope of getting the unenthusiastic Remainers out on polling day and getting a good turnout is the possibility that Leave could win.
    Don't know about that. There is no residual love of the union for the EU (like there may well have been for the UK). Besides I know some unenthusiastic remainers who've already voted. Leave. :)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,663
    I watched Captain America today.

    A real Rorschach test for the EU ref.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,414
    RobD said:

    Well this is odd, The Observer are reporting the Opinium poll as a 3 point lead for LEAVE

    The leave campaign has picked up momentum and taken a three point lead over remain in the latest Observer/Opinium poll on the EU referendum. The Brexiters now stand on 43%, while 40% say they support the campaign to keep the UK in the union.

    The poll suggests the remain camp has lost four percentage points in the last two weeks, during which Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have relentlessly campaigned on the theme of immigration.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/04/poll-eu-brexit-lead-opinium?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics

    OT.. while the jumper is nice, I think this is all round a better picture ;)
    "There is no such thing as EU Money. There is only taxpayers' money!" :)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,414
    Pulpstar said:

    I watched Captain America today.

    A real Rorschach test for the EU ref.

    Was it any good?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @newsundayherald: Scottish Labour consulting on becoming an 'independent' party
    Full story in tomorrow's paper

    I wonder what they'd call themselves.
    The Scottish Un-national Party
    How about "Red Tories"... :D
  • Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited June 2016

    Scott_P said:

    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe

    Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
    I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
    People like to make a thing of it on here.
    All these sensible compromises are things that would have to be negotiated and viewed from the other side might be regarded as concessions to make our life easier. What would we give in return?

    Some of the more excitable Brexiters have been quoting the Vienna Convention of 1969 to argue that acquired rights of British citizens will be protected. Again this cuts both ways. If the EU's starting position is that the UK is obliged to maintain all current EU citizens' rights to settle in the UK, what will we offer to make them change their opinion?
    Look, if we seal the Inner Irish border and impose trade tariffs on them their economy would collapse we are not planning to do it and they are not stupid enough to goad us into doing it.
    'Little' Ireland would not be alone and you're not seeing this in the context of the broader negotiations with the EU. Your attitude towards the Irish seems to be they they are little more than a colonial possession that got away.
    Ireland are as independent of tbe UK as Lesotho are of South Africa. De Jure yes, de facto sort of. Like it or not their fate is bound up inextricably with ours.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    surbiton said:

    The Sunday Times are reporting The Chilcot report will clear Alastair Campbell of any serious wrong doing and blame the spooks and Tony Blair.

    If that scumbag gets off scot free it will be just as meaningful as the Hutton enquiry. A neutron star of whitewash.
    You cannot possibly believe Campbell started the Iraq War. You can be as critical as you like that he loyally stood by that evil Bliar but surely that is not the same as being responsible for the war.

    If I remember correctly the Chair of the JIC was later promoted to head MI5 or MI6. Great !
    The Intelligence that could not distinguish between an Ice Cream van and a mobile biological factory.

    I wonder Colin Powell is today with his UNSC speech.
    The trouble with enquiries on well-known issues is that everyone already has an opinion and judges the enquiry by whether it comes to the same conclusion. I think they're largely a waste of time - fine for something like a train crash, where we don't really know whatt happened, but how many people still have an open mind on Iraq?
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    Scott_P said:

    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe

    Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
    I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
    People like to make a thing of it on here.
    All these sensible compromises are things that would have to be negotiated and viewed from the other side might be regarded as concessions to make our life easier. What would we give in return?

    Some of the more excitable Brexiters have been quoting the Vienna Convention of 1969 to argue that acquired rights of British citizens will be protected. Again this cuts both ways. If the EU's starting position is that the UK is obliged to maintain all current EU citizens' rights to settle in the UK, what will we offer to make them change their opinion?
    It applies to all citizens that have settled not all that could. We would assume that works both ways.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,432
    Pulpstar said:

    I watched Captain America today.

    A real Rorschach test for the EU ref.

    Civil War?

    PS - The Opinium Welsh subsample has Wales backing Brexit
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,150
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach

    At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
    The story is hostile to leave but the point I am making is the two papers seem to be on opposite sides
    I know, but I wouldn't assume the papers are on opposite sides. I can imagine Mail/MoS readers getting annoyed to see Leave being smeared with association with the Far Right.
    Not if it is true
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,432
    I've updated the thread with the Observer report of the poll
  • surbiton said:

    The Sunday Times are reporting The Chilcot report will clear Alastair Campbell of any serious wrong doing and blame the spooks and Tony Blair.

    If that scumbag gets off scot free it will be just as meaningful as the Hutton enquiry. A neutron star of whitewash.
    You cannot possibly believe Campbell started the Iraq War. You can be as critical as you like that he loyally stood by that evil Bliar but surely that is not the same as being responsible for the war.

    If I remember correctly the Chair of the JIC was later promoted to head MI5 or MI6. Great !
    The Intelligence that could not distinguish between an Ice Cream van and a mobile biological factory.

    I wonder Colin Powell is today with his UNSC speech.
    I hold him equally as guilty as Blar.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,432
    RobD said:

    Well this is odd, The Observer are reporting the Opinium poll as a 3 point lead for LEAVE

    The leave campaign has picked up momentum and taken a three point lead over remain in the latest Observer/Opinium poll on the EU referendum. The Brexiters now stand on 43%, while 40% say they support the campaign to keep the UK in the union.

    The poll suggests the remain camp has lost four percentage points in the last two weeks, during which Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have relentlessly campaigned on the theme of immigration.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/04/poll-eu-brexit-lead-opinium?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics

    OT.. while the jumper is nice, I think this is all round a better picture ;)
    Nah, mine is the best, I like people who wear sober, plain, and boring clothes.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,933

    Scott_P said:

    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe

    Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
    I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
    People like to make a thing of it on here.
    All these sensible compromises are things that would have to be negotiated and viewed from the other side might be regarded as concessions to make our life easier. What would we give in return?

    Some of the more excitable Brexiters have been quoting the Vienna Convention of 1969 to argue that acquired rights of British citizens will be protected. Again this cuts both ways. If the EU's starting position is that the UK is obliged to maintain all current EU citizens' rights to settle in the UK, what will we offer to make them change their opinion?
    It applies to all citizens that have settled not all that could. We would assume that works both ways.
    That's a supposition, not a fact.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944
    Scott_P said:

    Mortimer said:

    Literally everything else doesn't seem to be working for Remain.

    That's what the Yes campaign said.

    Then lost by 10 points
    Yes. That's for two reasons.

    1. A more positive campaign for the Union.

    2. The vow.

    I await seeing a repetition.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171

    RobD said:

    Well this is odd, The Observer are reporting the Opinium poll as a 3 point lead for LEAVE

    The leave campaign has picked up momentum and taken a three point lead over remain in the latest Observer/Opinium poll on the EU referendum. The Brexiters now stand on 43%, while 40% say they support the campaign to keep the UK in the union.

    The poll suggests the remain camp has lost four percentage points in the last two weeks, during which Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have relentlessly campaigned on the theme of immigration.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/04/poll-eu-brexit-lead-opinium?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics

    OT.. while the jumper is nice, I think this is all round a better picture ;)
    Nah, mine is the best, I like people who wear sober, plain, and boring clothes.
    Shame the picture is cropped and you can't see her shoes :D
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,819

    Scott_P said:

    What does he know...

    @JoeyforEU: Bertie Ahern: UK would have to reimpose Irish border after Brexit https://t.co/eEK13F9ZOe

    Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
    I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
    People like to make a thing of it on here.
    All these sensible compromises are things that would have to be negotiated and viewed from the other side might be regarded as concessions to make our life easier. What would we give in return?

    Some of the more excitable Brexiters have been quoting the Vienna Convention of 1969 to argue that acquired rights of British citizens will be protected. Again this cuts both ways. If the EU's starting position is that the UK is obliged to maintain all current EU citizens' rights to settle in the UK, what will we offer to make them change their opinion?
    Look, if we seal the Inner Irish border and impose trade tariffs on them their economy would collapse we are not planning to do it and they are not stupid enough to goad us into doing it.
    I've already gone into this issue twice on this board and do not want to go thru it again. Instead I suggest you contact the Taoiseach's Office and ask them to furnish you with an explanation.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,171

    Scott_P said:

    Mortimer said:

    Literally everything else doesn't seem to be working for Remain.

    That's what the Yes campaign said.

    Then lost by 10 points
    Yes. That's for two reasons.

    1. A more positive campaign for the Union.

    2. The vow.

    I await seeing a repetition.
    Did 1) actually happen? I though the complaint was that it was relentlessly negative?
  • OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    weejonnie said:

    When was the last poll to show a swing to Remain not resulting from a methodological change?

    Ipsos Mori 17th May? 49-39 ==> 55-37 - although the consensus is that it was an outlier
    Thanks. So basically Leave has had the momentum (if not the Momentum!) for some time. Have Remain got anything else to throw at the campaign to switch things back in their direction?
    No doubt things have swung towards Leave recently but by the same token in the last week Leave have played the immigration card to destruction and pushed on with the saving £350m a week line and yet they are still losing in an online poll.

    So , to reverse your question, what have Leave got left?.

    I expect that in the home straight Remain will ramp up the economic risks focus and if this referendum does follow past experiences there will be a swing back to the status quo in the latter stages. I would have thought that Leave we need to be showing an across the board lead of about 5% at this stage to be feeling confident.
    If the polls are accurate. Which is still a big if.

    Without this rather odd methodology change Brexit are 4% ahesd.

    You didn't seem too bothered about the accuracy of the polls when you were making your "You're not singing any more" comments recently.

    Pollsters have their reputations and future business on the line so if they have changed their methodology then they clearly believe that the old methodology showing Brexit 4 points ahead is wrong.

    The reasons for changing it seem pretty sound to me, perhaps you could expand on what you find is "odd" about it.
    Well for a start the Observer seems to have ignored it but principally any question along the lines of donyou think racial equality legislation goes far enough or two far is not going to get honest answers from those who think 'too far' in the current climate if it is in any way traceable.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,414

    I've updated the thread with the Observer report of the poll

    The Observer have rounded DOWN the LEAVE %.

    42.6 REMAIN
    40.9 LEAVE
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,266

    OllyT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Mortimer said:

    Roger said:

    Mortimer said:

    Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.

    Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....

    I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.

    I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.

    They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
    Just when I'm feeling jittery, Rogerdamus comes up trumps and reinvigorates my faith in Leave winning!
    It's hard to tell. It may be that there will be a swing back to Remain in the last fortnight.

    Or there may now be a bandwagon for Leave.
    I spoke to someone at Vote Leave on Thursday, he reckoned Leave needed to be about 7% ahead in the polls before he would feel confident about Leave winning.

    He said the polls weren't factoring in Northern Ireland and Expats, combined with Gibraltar he thought that would be worth 2% to Remain, then about a 2-3% swing to Remain on voting day as people back the status quo.
    If I were in Leave HQ I would agree, I'd also keep hammering away to get the biggest lead I could.

    However my experience is that remainers are very unenthusiastic. That will hit remain on the day as well.
    I genuinely believe that the best hope of getting the unenthusiastic Remainers out on polling day and getting a good turnout is the possibility that Leave could win.
    Agreed
    I agree too. Or to put it another way, it's a minimum price of entry. They have to at least believe (not BeLeave) in the possibility to have any hope of them voting. Stands to reason. There is no point in voting only to make a Remain vote more emphatic - that's a reason not to vote. You may want the EU to win, but surely few in their right minds want to give them a ringing endorsement.
  • BenedictWhiteBenedictWhite Posts: 1,944

    Well this is odd, The Observer are reporting the Opinium poll as a 3 point lead for LEAVE

    The leave campaign has picked up momentum and taken a three point lead over remain in the latest Observer/Opinium poll on the EU referendum. The Brexiters now stand on 43%, while 40% say they support the campaign to keep the UK in the union.

    The poll suggests the remain camp has lost four percentage points in the last two weeks, during which Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have relentlessly campaigned on the theme of immigration.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/04/poll-eu-brexit-lead-opinium?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics

    They're journalists.

    You weren't expecting accuracy were you?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Scott_P said:

    Mortimer said:

    Literally everything else doesn't seem to be working for Remain.

    That's what the Yes campaign said.

    Then lost by 10 points
    Yes. That's for two reasons.

    1. A more positive campaign for the Union.

    2. The vow.

    I await seeing a repetition.
    3. High turnout
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,414

    RobD said:

    Well this is odd, The Observer are reporting the Opinium poll as a 3 point lead for LEAVE

    The leave campaign has picked up momentum and taken a three point lead over remain in the latest Observer/Opinium poll on the EU referendum. The Brexiters now stand on 43%, while 40% say they support the campaign to keep the UK in the union.

    The poll suggests the remain camp has lost four percentage points in the last two weeks, during which Boris Johnson and Michael Gove have relentlessly campaigned on the theme of immigration.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/04/poll-eu-brexit-lead-opinium?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics

    OT.. while the jumper is nice, I think this is all round a better picture ;)
    Nah, mine is the best, I like people who wear sober, plain, and boring clothes.
    Maggie saw the EC, later EU, for what it really was later in her career and after she left office.
This discussion has been closed.