Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
Even now - the headline figure for Remain is 42.6 : 40.9 - which is better for Leave than shown.
Thanks
The poll downgrades the effect of immigration and also the ability to make own laws (compared to the previous format). In fact EVERY question suggestive of Leaving has been downgraded and EVERY question suggestive of Remaining upgraded.
Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
Even now - the headline figure for Remain is 42.6 : 40.9 - which is better for Leave than shown.
Thanks
The poll downgrades the effect of immigration and also the ability to make own laws (compared to the previous format). In fact EVERY question suggestive of Leaving has been downgraded and EVERY question suggestive of Remaining upgraded.
Are we seeing 2015 herding again?
Surely NOT!
**looks ruefully at his ELBOW charts from GE2015**
Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
People like to make a thing of it on here.
All these sensible compromises are things that would have to be negotiated and viewed from the other side might be regarded as concessions to make our life easier. What would we give in return?
Some of the more excitable Brexiters have been quoting the Vienna Convention of 1969 to argue that acquired rights of British citizens will be protected. Again this cuts both ways. If the EU's starting position is that the UK is obliged to maintain all current EU citizens' rights to settle in the UK, what will we offer to make them change their opinion?
It applies to all citizens that have settled not all that could. We would assume that works both ways.
That's a supposition, not a fact.
Are you saying that it applies to all that could have settled then?
Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
People like to make a thing of it on here.
All these sensible compromises are things that would have to be negotiated and viewed from the other side might be regarded as concessions to make our life easier. What would we give in return?
Some of the more excitable Brexiters have been quoting the Vienna Convention of 1969 to argue that acquired rights of British citizens will be protected. Again this cuts both ways. If the EU's starting position is that the UK is obliged to maintain all current EU citizens' rights to settle in the UK, what will we offer to make them change their opinion?
I think this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the convention by those making the claims. The convention applies to the contracted parties (the countries) in the treaty not necessarily to the individual citizens of the countries. If the UK were to withdraw from the treaties (which they would be doing as part of the Leave process under Article 50) then the rights accrued under those treaties would be lost unless covered in some other way. Basically those saying British citizens would still be covered are wrong.
Literally everything else doesn't seem to be working for Remain.
That's what the Yes campaign said.
Then lost by 10 points
Yes. That's for two reasons.
1. A more positive campaign for the Union.
2. The vow.
I await seeing a repetition.
Did 1) actually happen? I though the complaint was that it was relentlessly negative?
I watched Cameron's speech with a colleague (the one in front of RBS workers or something). It was a poll of one, but they did comment very positively about it.
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
People like to make a thing of it on here.
All these sensible compromises are things that would have to be negotiated and viewed from the other side might be regarded as concessions to make our life easier. What would we give in return?
Some of the more excitable Brexiters have been quoting the Vienna Convention of 1969 to argue that acquired rights of British citizens will be protected. Again this cuts both ways. If the EU's starting position is that the UK is obliged to maintain all current EU citizens' rights to settle in the UK, what will we offer to make them change their opinion?
It applies to all citizens that have settled not all that could. We would assume that works both ways.
That's a supposition, not a fact.
Are you saying that it applies to all that could have settled then?
I'm saying that if it is the case that rights acquired by treaty must be grandfathered then it would apply to all who have the right to settle at the moment the treaty is abrogated. In other words, people citing the Vienna Convention to reassure people about the consequences of Brexit should be careful what they wish for.
"It was meant to be her proudest moment yet: a victorious march to the history books as the first woman presidential nominee of the United States.
Instead the finale of the primary election season may prove to be a day Hillary Clinton would rather forget. As the eight remaining states prepare to vote on Tuesday, California – by the biggest prize on offer with 546 delegates - is threatening to side with Bernie Sanders."
The principles are fine - I am very distracted by the odd clip art 'x's, all in slightly different formats though. They also look like 'incorrect' symbols rather than crosses on voting forms to me. No doubt the agency had their reasons.
Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
MoS
Consistently a different editorial line.
We have had the mail and mail on sunday delivered for years but never seen such a divergence over any issue like the EU. In fact the mail is so pro brexit it has lost all sense of balance, and that includes all the writers
I think this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the convention by those making the claims. The convention applies to the contracted parties (the countries) in the treaty not necessarily to the individual citizens of the countries. If the UK were to withdraw from the treaties (which they would be doing as part of the Leave process under Article 50) then the rights accrued under those treaties would be lost unless covered in some other way. Basically those saying British citizens would still be covered are wrong.
Agreed. I was making the same point the other way.
Anyway I'm glad you popped up as it's just occurred to me how monumentally hypocritical you are being in recent days. You have been criticising free movement in the EU to the point of saying that it amounts to a racist immigration policy, while for years you have consistently said that you favour being in the EEA which would mean no change whatsoever to this. In addition you've explicitly said that free movement doesn't bother you at all. Why have your views suddenly shifted?
The principles are fine - I am very distracted by the odd clip art 'x's, all in slightly different formats though. They also look like 'incorrect' symbols rather than crosses on voting forms to me. No doubt the agency had their reasons.
"It was meant to be her proudest moment yet: a victorious march to the history books as the first woman presidential nominee of the United States.
Instead the finale of the primary election season may prove to be a day Hillary Clinton would rather forget. As the eight remaining states prepare to vote on Tuesday, California – by the biggest prize on offer with 546 delegates - is threatening to side with Bernie Sanders."
Hilary is as bad a candidate as Trump and Sanders.
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over Calais
The principles are fine - I am very distracted by the odd clip art 'x's, all in slightly different formats though. They also look like 'incorrect' symbols rather than crosses on voting forms to me. No doubt the agency had their reasons.
I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I agree with this. And I think the whole 'what if we don't get trade deals?' argument from Remain was unnecessarily pandered-to by Leave, quite successful outcome for Remain. They managed to establish in people's minds that to grow and prosper we need these 'deals' - like the debt and the deficit (where many people believe that our national debt is being paid off), I would imagine there is now a substantial group of people who believe that we won't actually be able to export to countries we don't have these all important 'trade deals' with.
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over Calais
Indeed. I'm willing to accept that we'll never again have territorial control of Calais.
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over Calais
And what if we then switch major traffic to Belgium (By ferry obviously, tricky to move the tunnel)
The Daily Telegraph also reports this evening as follows:
Voters "cannot trust" David Cameron and George Osborne to honour their promises on Europe, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson have warned in an extraordinary attack on their government colleagues.
The leaders of the Vote Leave campaign declare that the Prime Minister has put the British economy in “severe danger” by giving away the UK’s veto during talks in Brussels earlier this year.
They say Mr Cameron’s renegotiation of Britain’s European Union membership leaves Britain “dangerously and permanently exposed” to being forced to hand over more money and accept “damaging new laws”.
Wow .... strong stuff. Neither can expect to be offered Cabinet positions after making such claims. Either they are destined for the backbenches or both Cameron and Osborne themselves appear doomed.
I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
An opportunity to do Britain down and tyson seizes upon it....
Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.
Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....
I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.
I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.
They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
I'm not sure there is time for any convincing now. It's GOTV time. Leave need to massively push for their angry hordes to be registered, able, and definitely voting (how they do that I don't know), and Leave need to do whatever they can to mobilise their supporters, like students.
I've heard and seen nothing that convinces me Leave is in the lead. I think that Remain are accepting and perhaps even encouraging this narrative, to scare the Remain-minded and to induce complacency amongst Leavers. It may or may not work, but it's worth trying.
What convinces me 'Leave' are doing well is that every vox pop you hear -and there are plenty-parrot the 'Leave' campaign. Turkey-£350 million a week-NHS going down the toilet -immigration. They're making all the connections and then the immigration figures came out. Couldn't be worse for 'Remain' which is why I think this could be 'Leave's' high water mark.
Why do you think it is a high water mark? Do you think leave is going to tail off?
All 'Leaves' messages have been picked up. They couldn't have hoped for more. Now we'll wait to see Remain articulate a response and find a theme for the last few weeks. I could give them a few ideas but their researchers will already be on the case
The principles are fine - I am very distracted by the odd clip art 'x's, all in slightly different formats though. They also look like 'incorrect' symbols rather than crosses on voting forms to me. No doubt the agency had their reasons.
My thoughts exactly.
Presumably meant to draw attention?
Perhaps, but why toward the 'x's and away from the pledges?
It's a bit crap really, but then the logo is a cube with a slot.
Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
People like to make a thing of it on here.
All these sensible compromises are things that would have to be negotiated and viewed from the other side might be regarded as concessions to make our life easier. What would we give in return?
Some of the more excitable Brexiters have been quoting the Vienna Convention of 1969 to argue that acquired rights of British citizens will be protected. Again this cuts both ways. If the EU's starting position is that the UK is obliged to maintain all current EU citizens' rights to settle in the UK, what will we offer to make them change their opinion?
It applies to all citizens that have settled not all that could. We would assume that works both ways.
That's a supposition, not a fact.
Are you saying that it applies to all that could have settled then?
I'm saying that if it is the case that rights acquired by treaty must be grandfathered then it would apply to all who have the right to settle at the moment the treaty is abrogated. In other words, people citing the Vienna Convention to reassure people about the consequences of Brexit should be careful what they wish for.
I would hope that the French open the floodgates from Calais and give as many migrants as they could one way tickets on Eurostar with a complimentary glass of champers. That'll be for starters.....and no more than we deserve.
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over Calais
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over Calais
And what if we then switch major traffic to Belgium (By ferry obviously, tricky to move the tunnel)
I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
The principles are fine - I am very distracted by the odd clip art 'x's, all in slightly different formats though. They also look like 'incorrect' symbols rather than crosses on voting forms to me. No doubt the agency had their reasons.
Diversity, innit!
I've just seen your new Picture Profile. Have you and TSE ever been seen in the same room together?
Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.
Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....
I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.
I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.
They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
I'm not sure there is time for any convincing now. It's GOTV time. Leave need to massively push for their angry hordes to be registered, able, and definitely voting (how they do that I don't know), and Leave need to do whatever they can to mobilise their supporters, like students.
I've heard and seen nothing that convinces me Leave is in the lead. I think that Remain are accepting and perhaps even encouraging this narrative, to scare the Remain-minded and to induce complacency amongst Leavers. It may or may not work, but it's worth trying.
What convinces me 'Leave' are doing well is that every vox pop you hear -and there are plenty-parrot the 'Leave' campaign. Turkey-£350 million a week-NHS going down the toilet -immigration. They're making all the connections and then the immigration figures came out. Couldn't be worse for 'Remain' which is why I think this could be 'Leave's' high water mark.
Why do you think it is a high water mark? Do you think leave is going to tail off?
All 'Leaves' messages have been picked up. They couldn't have hoped for more. Now we'll wait to see Remain articulate a response and find a theme for the last few weeks. I could give them a few ideas but their researchers will already be on the case
I would hope that the French open the floodgates from Calais and give as many migrants as they could one way tickets on Eurostar with a complimentary glass of champers. That'll be for starters.....and no more than we deserve.
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over Calais
The French seem in no hurry to police their borders anyway.
The principles are fine - I am very distracted by the odd clip art 'x's, all in slightly different formats though. They also look like 'incorrect' symbols rather than crosses on voting forms to me. No doubt the agency had their reasons.
Diversity, innit!
I've just seen your new Picture Profile. Have you and TSE ever been seen in the same room together?
Come to think of it... have we ever been seen in the same room together?
I would hope that the French open the floodgates from Calais and give as many migrants as they could one way tickets on Eurostar with a complimentary glass of champers. That'll be for starters.....and no more than we deserve.
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over Calais
But surely this would be a good and enriching thing? Now you're saying an influx of migrants would be some sort of punishment?
The principles are fine - I am very distracted by the odd clip art 'x's, all in slightly different formats though. They also look like 'incorrect' symbols rather than crosses on voting forms to me. No doubt the agency had their reasons.
My thoughts exactly.
Presumably meant to draw attention?
Perhaps, but why toward the 'x's and away from the pledges?
It's a bit crap really, but then the logo is a cube with a slot.
I would hope that the French open the floodgates from Calais and give as many migrants as they could one way tickets on Eurostar with a complimentary glass of champers. That'll be for starters.....and no more than we deserve.
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over Calais
This vote is starting to unnerve you, isn't it? As Leave get traction, I keep seeing Lefties say 'we shouldnt be having this vote'.
Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over Calais
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over Calais
Indeed. I'm willing to accept that we'll never again have territorial control of Calais.
Tricky one this - the methodology change sounds sensible. The increased DK swing to Leave is my biggest takeaway. In line with supplementaries of other polls which suggest Project Fear has not worked/is not working.
Yet Al Campbell thinks the single-track economy argument will swing it for Remain. Not what we're seeing in the polls....
I think Leave is winning the negative campaign at the moment. The question is whether they've peaked too early.
I can't help but think that this is the high water mark for Leave after the immigration figures and Remain should have a stronger negative campaign for the last two weeks with any number of experts telling of the disaster Brexit would bring.
They wasted time using them when no one was listening. Now they are and we've still Saatchis research to look forward to.
I'm not sure there is time for any convincing now. It's GOTV time. Leave need to massively push for their angry hordes to be registered, able, and definitely voting (how they do that I don't know), and Leave need to do whatever they can to mobilise their supporters, like students.
I've heard and seen nothing that convinces me Leave is in the lead. I think that Remain are accepting and perhaps even encouraging this narrative, to scare the Remain-minded and to induce complacency amongst Leavers. It may or may not work, but it's worth trying.
What convinces me 'Leave' are doing well is that every vox pop you hear -and there are plenty-parrot the 'Leave' campaign. Turkey-£350 million a week-NHS going down the toilet -immigration. They're making all the connections and then the immigration figures came out. Couldn't be worse for 'Remain' which is why I think this could be 'Leave's' high water mark.
Why do you think it is a high water mark? Do you think leave is going to tail off?
All 'Leaves' messages have been picked up. They couldn't have hoped for more. Now we'll wait to see Remain articulate a response and find a theme for the last few weeks. I could give them a few ideas but their researchers will already be on the case
You assume that there are no more leave messages then?
I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
The Daily Telegraph also reports this evening as follows:
Voters "cannot trust" David Cameron and George Osborne to honour their promises on Europe, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson have warned in an extraordinary attack on their government colleagues.
The leaders of the Vote Leave campaign declare that the Prime Minister has put the British economy in “severe danger” by giving away the UK’s veto during talks in Brussels earlier this year.
They say Mr Cameron’s renegotiation of Britain’s European Union membership leaves Britain “dangerously and permanently exposed” to being forced to hand over more money and accept “damaging new laws”.
Wow .... strong stuff. Neither can expect to be offered Cabinet positions after making such claims. Either they are destined for the backbenches or both Cameron and Osborne themselves appear doomed.
I imagine anyone with deeply held Eurosceptic beliefs would find it incredibly hard to work closely with Cameron and Osborne after all the crap they have come out with. I am mainly referring to Gove. Johnson more than likely has an ulterior motive.
Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
What is illogical is claiming the moral high ground.
There are odious people, ideas and messages in both campaigns.
The principles are fine - I am very distracted by the odd clip art 'x's, all in slightly different formats though. They also look like 'incorrect' symbols rather than crosses on voting forms to me. No doubt the agency had their reasons.
Diversity, innit!
I've just seen your new Picture Profile. Have you and TSE ever been seen in the same room together?
Come to think of it... have we ever been seen in the same room together?
Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
The REMAIN campaign is based on racism too, against predominantly non-white non-EU people.
Good question. If I was in France and wanted to get to the UK to work, I would come straight here claiming to be on holiday and overstay the visit.
I would have thought checks on the ferries and airports between GB and Ireland would be enough to sort that out. No need to do anything on the county boundaries
People like to make a thing of it on here.
All these sensible compromises are things that would have to be negotiated and viewed from the other side might be regarded as concessions to make our life easier. What would we give in return?
Some of the more excitable Brexiters have been quoting the Vienna Convention of 1969 to argue that acquired rights of British citizens will be protected. Again this cuts both ways. If the EU's starting position is that the UK is obliged to maintain all current EU citizens' rights to settle in the UK, what will we offer to make them change their opinion?
It applies to all citizens that have settled not all that could. We would assume that works both ways.
That's a supposition, not a fact.
Are you saying that it applies to all that could have settled then?
I'm saying that if it is the case that rights acquired by treaty must be grandfathered then it would apply to all who have the right to settle at the moment the treaty is abrogated. In other words, people citing the Vienna Convention to reassure people about the consequences of Brexit should be careful what they wish for.
What about rights exercised?
See Richard Tyndall's post below. Basically it's a misconception that there is any treaty obligation to maintain anyone's rights at all. It comes down to a matter of domestic law.
One of the risks is that because people have the right, for example, to settle in France by virtue of being an EU citizen, they wouldn't have jumped through all the same administrative hoops like acquiring a residence permit as a non-EU citizen would do, so may find themselves in a legal limbo.
Agreed. I was making the same point the other way.
Anyway I'm glad you popped up as it's just occurred to me how monumentally hypocritical you are being in recent days. You have been criticising free movement in the EU to the point of saying that it amounts to a racist immigration policy, while for years you have consistently said that you favour being in the EEA which would mean no change whatsoever to this. In addition you've explicitly said that free movement doesn't bother you at all. Why have your views suddenly shifted?
Not at all. I was actually waiting for someone to make that point because to add it to my comments would take too long. In fact I did allude to it yesterday in a posting on the subject where I said that in spite of my views on the UK immigration policy I would still choose the EEA option.
Basically the EEA option is the best one for Britain and for Leave in my opinion. Now it seems the polls are trying their best to prove me wrong but I said very clearly when Leave decided to go for the Complete Out option that I thought it was a mistake and had greatly diminished the chances of a Leave victory. I do still believe that if Leave had gone for the EEA option they would be much further ahead - though again the polls seems to be determined to prove me wrong.
That doesn't change the fact that I do believe the EU makes our immigration policy inherently racist. I am happy to argue that as I believe it to be true. I do strongly believe in free movement but believe that should apply to all, not just to EU citizens. But I am also sensible enough to realise that anyone standing on that platform - much like many other of my Libertarian views - is going to get absolutely nowhere. The sorts of people who view the world as I or Robert Smithson or some of the other Libertarians on here do is vanishingly small. If I was leading Leave as an ideologically pure campaign they would be in single figures.
The Britain I want is almost certainly never going to happen so I have to accept a compromise whist still being happy to argue my beliefs on here.
The principles are fine - I am very distracted by the odd clip art 'x's, all in slightly different formats though. They also look like 'incorrect' symbols rather than crosses on voting forms to me. No doubt the agency had their reasons.
My thoughts exactly.
Presumably meant to draw attention?
Perhaps, but why toward the 'x's and away from the pledges?
It's a bit crap really, but then the logo is a cube with a slot.
Otherwise known as a ballot box
Indeed, but unless they feel we Leavers need an illustration in order to know what one looks like, there seems little point.
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over Calais
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
I am sure you are right but it will be a slow burn and the one thing about life is constant change and children do adapt
OK, so the Grauniad on Sunday is using the Old methodology.
The Grauniad can use whatever methodolgy it likes. But the headline is wrong.
Did you manage to sell your flat, vc?
No. In the Osborne boom, the sale price of my flat rose by about 20K but the prices of the flats/houses I wanted to buy rose by about 30K (flats) or 40K (houses). I can't make the gap up. So I keep making offers but keep getting rejected. Prices have started to fall (lack of BTL buyers, possibly Brexit...I know, irony) but they're not falling fast enough. The question is what's going to happen first: my buyer pull out or a vendor cracks. It's not a good situation, and not one I'm particularly proud of.
It is ironic: I frequently point out that Brexit is undesirable because of multiple financial penalties (opportunity cost, uncertainty, transition costs) and am content that I am correct. But the pro-REMAIN Osborne, by preannouncing a change in taxation with four month's notice, cost me about £10-20K. It's not like it was unprecedented: Lawson did the same thing in 87/88? with the same deleritous results. Damn...
Still. I have Doritos and "Watchmen" is on Film4. So life not that bad.
Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
The REMAIN campaign is based on racism too, against predominantly non-white non-EU people.
I have always regarded accusations of RACIST or FASCIST or NAZI as signs of a lost argument.
I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
OK, so the Grauniad on Sunday is using the Old methodology.
The Grauniad can use whatever methodolgy it likes. But the headline is wrong.
Did you manage to sell your flat, vc?
No. In the Osborne boom, the sale price of my flat rose by about 20K but the prices of the flats/houses I wanted to buy rose by about 30K (flats) or 40K (houses). I can't make the gap up. So I keep making offers but keep getting rejected. Prices have started to fall (lack of BTL buyers, possibly Brexit...I know, irony) but they're not falling fast enough. The question is what's going to happen first: my buyer pull out or a vendor cracks. It's not a good situation, and not one I'm particularly proud of.
It is ironic: I frequently point out that Brexit is undesirable because of multiple financial penalties (opportunity cost, uncertainty, transition costs) and am content that I am correct. But the pro-REMAIN Osborne, by preannouncing a change in taxation with four month's notice, cost me about £10-20K. It's not like it was unprecedented: Lawson did the same thing in 87/88? with the same deleritous results. Damn...
Still. I have Doritos and "Watchmen" is on Film4. So life not that bad.
A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over Calais
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
The Britain I want is almost certainly never going to happen so I have to accept a compromise whist still being happy to argue my beliefs on here.
Fair enough. In that case a bit less vehemence when attacking an element of someone else's compromise Britain that is exactly the same as yours wouldn't go amiss.
OK, so the Grauniad on Sunday is using the Old methodology.
The Grauniad can use whatever methodolgy it likes. But the headline is wrong.
Did you manage to sell your flat, vc?
No. In the Osborne boom, the sale price of my flat rose by about 20K but the prices of the flats/houses I wanted to buy rose by about 30K (flats) or 40K (houses). I can't make the gap up. So I keep making offers but keep getting rejected. Prices have started to fall (lack of BTL buyers, possibly Brexit...I know, irony) but they're not falling fast enough. The question is what's going to happen first: my buyer pull out or a vendor cracks. It's not a good situation, and not one I'm particularly proud of.
It is ironic: I frequently point out that Brexit is undesirable because of multiple financial penalties (opportunity cost, uncertainty, transition costs) and am content that I am correct. But the pro-REMAIN Osborne, by preannouncing a change in taxation with four month's notice, cost me about £10-20K. It's not like it was unprecedented: Lawson did the same thing in 87/88? with the same deleritous results. Damn...
Still. I have Doritos and "Watchmen" is on Film4. So life not that bad.
Sorry to hear that! Can I add you to the list of people no longer fans of Osbo?
OK, so the Grauniad on Sunday is using the Old methodology.
The Grauniad can use whatever methodolgy it likes. But the headline is wrong.
Did you manage to sell your flat, vc?
No. In the Osborne boom, the sale price of my flat rose by about 20K but the prices of the flats/houses I wanted to buy rose by about 30K (flats) or 40K (houses). I can't make the gap up. So I keep making offers but keep getting rejected. Prices have started to fall (lack of BTL buyers, possibly Brexit...I know, irony) but they're not falling fast enough. The question is what's going to happen first: my buyer pull out or a vendor cracks. It's not a good situation, and not one I'm particularly proud of.
It is ironic: I frequently point out that Brexit is undesirable because of multiple financial penalties (opportunity cost, uncertainty, transition costs) and am content that I am correct. But the pro-REMAIN Osborne, by preannouncing a change in taxation with four month's notice, cost me about £10-20K. It's not like it was unprecedented: Lawson did the same thing in 87/88? with the same deleritous results. Damn...
Still. I have Doritos and "Watchmen" is on Film4. So life not that bad.
I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
Smear, smear, smear Ugly politics from tyson.
The violence will come from the hard-left - Momentum, UaF, HnH - and it will come in the next 7 days.
Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
The REMAIN campaign is based on racism too, against predominantly non-white non-EU people.
As a remainer I absolutely reject your assertion. As long as they integrate into the UK they are welcome irrespective of their race or colour of their skin or wherever they are from
Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
The REMAIN campaign is based on racism too, against predominantly non-white non-EU people.
As a remainer I absolutely reject your assertion. As long as they integrate into the UK they are welcome irrespective of their race or colour of their skin or wherever they are from
See? It's not nice to be accused of racism, is it?
A truly bizarre thing to say. Technology and improvements in health are going to give the next generation a quality of life we can only imagine. And you are worried about a few migrants......
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I am sure we will with some but others will be unforgiving. I would expect the French to become very uncooperative, particularly over Calais
Well, I am inclined to think we are witnessing the beginning of the end of European culture as we know it. There are just too many people from significantly different cultures who wish to come & live in Europe, and since they come (mostly) in peace there isn't any obvious way of keeping them out. They will come & settle and change the European way of life to one they are more comfortable with.
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
No, I am not worried by a few migrants. I am not actually worried by billions of immigrants. I am merely sad at the passing of the culture I grew up in.
I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
You've just declared that trains full of migrants would be a punishment inflicted on this country. That's a view that most if not all of these individuals and groups would agree with.
Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
The REMAIN campaign is based on racism too, against predominantly non-white non-EU people.
As a remainer I absolutely reject your assertion. As long as they integrate into the UK they are welcome irrespective of their race or colour of their skin or wherever they are from
Ah - But the EU discriminates against them when offering employment - in favour of predominantly white EU people. If you can't see that then I suggest you take your blinkers off, look around you and have a whiff of the bucolic smell the EU leaves.
OK, so the Grauniad on Sunday is using the Old methodology.
The Grauniad can use whatever methodolgy it likes. But the headline is wrong.
Did you manage to sell your flat, vc?
No. In the Osborne boom, the sale price of my flat rose by about 20K but the prices of the flats/houses I wanted to buy rose by about 30K (flats) or 40K (houses). I can't make the gap up. So I keep making offers but keep getting rejected. Prices have started to fall (lack of BTL buyers, possibly Brexit...I know, irony) but they're not falling fast enough. The question is what's going to happen first: my buyer pull out or a vendor cracks. It's not a good situation, and not one I'm particularly proud of.
It is ironic: I frequently point out that Brexit is undesirable because of multiple financial penalties (opportunity cost, uncertainty, transition costs) and am content that I am correct. But the pro-REMAIN Osborne, by preannouncing a change in taxation with four month's notice, cost me about £10-20K. It's not like it was unprecedented: Lawson did the same thing in 87/88? with the same deleritous results. Damn...
Still. I have Doritos and "Watchmen" is on Film4. So life not that bad.
Die Hard with a vengance on BBC1!
Everytime I watch it, people shush me out of the room because I work out the water-in-bottles riddle. DieHard3 is 50% a great film (up to and including the Reserve Bank heist) but tails off badly in the last third. Still, Scar is almost - but not quite - as good as Alan Rickman
Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
The REMAIN campaign is based on racism too, against predominantly non-white non-EU people.
As a remainer I absolutely reject your assertion. As long as they integrate into the UK they are welcome irrespective of their race or colour of their skin or wherever they are from
Indeed, while some Leavers get vehement about Poles and Lithuanians, get them on the subject of Turks or asylum seekers from Africa and the vehemence goes off the scale. Unfortunately my Dad is one of these.
Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
The REMAIN campaign is based on racism too, against predominantly non-white non-EU people.
As a remainer I absolutely reject your assertion. As long as they integrate into the UK they are welcome irrespective of their race or colour of their skin or wherever they are from
And yet the difficulties they face in getting here in the first place are immeasurably more difficult than if they are from the EU.
Slightly non sequitur. I am very frustrated that many of my fellow citizens do not have the same lofty aspirations for collective, global, collaboration and you deride me as self loathing.
The amount of personal abuse I get on this site isn't surprising. If you notice I usually always play the ball and never the player....I've had the odd dig at seanT and possibly and obliquely Plato for a bit of fun.
I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
I have absolutely no expectations of what will happen if we vote Leave. All other countries will do what seems good to them. I am confident the people of this country will cope, whatever happens.
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
The REMAIN campaign is based on racism too, against predominantly non-white non-EU people.
As a remainer I absolutely reject your assertion. As long as they integrate into the UK they are welcome irrespective of their race or colour of their skin or wherever they are from
See? It's not nice to be accused of racism, is it?
I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
Smear, smear, smear Ugly politics from tyson.
OK but can we at least acknowledge that there are some very unsavoury BNP/EDL types involved with the Leave campaign.
I recall many comments on PB quite rightly telling Labour to sort itself out because of some anti-semitic remarks. Likewise Leave to acknowledge that they have a problem with racists and tell us what they intend to do to rectify it (assuming they do intend to do something to rectify it)
Mail on Sunday front page 'Far right in plot to hijack Brexit' - Neo Nazis, violent thugs and racists infiltrating Vote Leave. Very different from the Daily Mail's approach
At first sight that looks hostile to Leave, but it might make people think "so what?" Are the far right a thing any more? If the MoS were reporting that their readers might lose their jobs etc etc, then that would be much more of a problem for Leave.
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
The same MoS that demonised Farage last year and has been consistently pro Remain for weeks to the extent I know of people that have stopped buying it.
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
Joe public does not make the distinction between the DM & MoS, one of the Mail titles headlining the number of BNP, EDL racist types involved in the Leave campaign will be an eye-opener for many. If the Guardian had produced the report it would have been dismissed as a smear.
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
The REMAIN campaign is based on racism too, against predominantly non-white non-EU people.
As a remainer I absolutely reject your assertion. As long as they integrate into the UK they are welcome irrespective of their race or colour of their skin or wherever they are from
Ah - But the EU discriminates against them when offering employment - in favour of predominantly white EU people. If you can't see that then I suggest you take your blinkers off, look around you and have a whiff of the bucolic smell the EU leaves.
I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
Smear, smear, smear Ugly politics from tyson.
OK but can we at least acknowledge that there are some very unsavoury BNP/EDL types involved with the Leave campaign.
I recall many comments on PB quite rightly telling Labour to sort itself out because of some anti-semitic remarks. Likewise Leave to acknowledge that they have a problem with racists and tell us what they intend to do to rectify it (assuming they do intend to do something to rectify it)
The first I've heard of it was the MoS story. They can't be that big of an influence, surely?
OK, so the Grauniad on Sunday is using the Old methodology.
The Grauniad can use whatever methodolgy it likes. But the headline is wrong.
Did you manage to sell your flat, vc?
No. In the Osborne boom, the sale price of my flat rose by about 20K but the prices of the flats/houses I wanted to buy rose by about 30K (flats) or 40K (houses). I can't make the gap up. So I keep making offers but keep getting rejected. Prices have started to fall (lack of BTL buyers, possibly Brexit...I know, irony) but they're not falling fast enough. The question is what's going to happen first: my buyer pull out or a vendor cracks. It's not a good situation, and not one I'm particularly proud of.
It is ironic: I frequently point out that Brexit is undesirable because of multiple financial penalties (opportunity cost, uncertainty, transition costs) and am content that I am correct. But the pro-REMAIN Osborne, by preannouncing a change in taxation with four month's notice, cost me about £10-20K. It's not like it was unprecedented: Lawson did the same thing in 87/88? with the same deleritous results. Damn...
Still. I have Doritos and "Watchmen" is on Film4. So life not that bad.
Die Hard with a vengance on BBC1!
Rorschach! Dr Manhattan! It's got a good plot! Why do people not love this film?
Probably been said, but a bit late to go through all the comments: Observer reporting this as Brexit lead in order to wake up complacent left-leaning Remainers. And they need it. As I keep saying, this is utterly lost unless Remain campaign wakes up sleeping voters and gets out the vote.
I'm not the one siding with the thugs from the EDL, the BNP, revolutionary communists, Putin, Trump, Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Farage. Look around and see the groups who support Brexit. Lowest common denominating, populist, ugly, ugly politics.
I would hope and expect that other European countries would treat us with the contempt we deserve. A Brexit vote would be embarrassing, and an act of obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour. At least the EDL, Putin, Trump, the BNP, and Nigel Farage would be happy. Well done Britain- didn't you do well........
"obnoxious, yobbish and low life behaviour."
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
Smear, smear, smear Ugly politics from tyson.
OK but can we at least acknowledge that there are some very unsavoury BNP/EDL types involved with the Leave campaign.
I recall many comments on PB quite rightly telling Labour to sort itself out because of some anti-semitic remarks. Likewise Leave to acknowledge that they have a problem with racists and tell us what they intend to do to rectify it (assuming they do intend to do something to rectify it)
Fair enough. But Corbyn and Gerry Adams are on your side.
Comments
Believe me It doesn't look any better for Leave at second, third or fourth sight. Particularly powerful coming from the Mail.
Opinium say Remain are ahead by 2%
The Observer say LEAVE are ahead by 3%
New methodology:
Remain: 43%
Leave: 41%
Old methodology:
Remain: 40%
Leave: 43%
(Online, 31 May - 03 Jun)
Consistently a different editorial line.
Are we seeing 2015 herding again?
Just looks like CCHQ have released the next wheeze in project fesr to me
**looks ruefully at his ELBOW charts from GE2015**
I hope & trust we will be able to maintain good relations with all other countries.
I wonder how that will work out this time.
Re: California Primary:
The Daily Telegraph reports:
"It was meant to be her proudest moment yet: a victorious march to the history books as the first woman presidential nominee of the United States.
Instead the finale of the primary election season may prove to be a day Hillary Clinton would rather forget. As the eight remaining states prepare to vote on Tuesday, California – by the biggest prize on offer with 546 delegates - is threatening to side with Bernie Sanders."
Anyway I'm glad you popped up as it's just occurred to me how monumentally hypocritical you are being in recent days. You have been criticising free movement in the EU to the point of saying that it amounts to a racist immigration policy, while for years you have consistently said that you favour being in the EEA which would mean no change whatsoever to this. In addition you've explicitly said that free movement doesn't bother you at all. Why have your views suddenly shifted?
@_a_y: @DPJHodges @Samfr @DPJHodges Polling in 2016 = Online & Phone, New & Old Methodology. FOUR arse covering options!
Presumably meant to draw attention?
But which one?
The Daily Telegraph also reports this evening as follows:
Voters "cannot trust" David Cameron and George Osborne to honour their promises on Europe, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson have warned in an extraordinary attack on their government colleagues.
The leaders of the Vote Leave campaign declare that the Prime Minister has put the British economy in “severe danger” by giving away the UK’s veto during talks in Brussels earlier this year.
They say Mr Cameron’s renegotiation of Britain’s European Union membership leaves Britain “dangerously and permanently exposed” to being forced to hand over more money and accept “damaging new laws”.
Wow .... strong stuff. Neither can expect to be offered Cabinet positions after making such claims. Either they are destined for the backbenches or both Cameron and Osborne themselves appear doomed.
Something you are clearly well practiced in.
It's a bit crap really, but then the logo is a cube with a slot.
It also makes a mockery of Plato's line earlier on today that it is an outrage to suggest that there are any racists in the Leave campaign. Hello, yes there are, plenty of them
I have no ill-will towards any of these people, but I am glad I have no children.
I remember his MACARSE disappeared before the Sindyref, though even his last one was closer to the result than most polls.
Wasn't the last one Remain 54% and 65% turnout?
There are odious people, ideas and messages in both campaigns.
...hopefully not an ARSE malfunction (get well soon Jack!)
One of the risks is that because people have the right, for example, to settle in France by virtue of being an EU citizen, they wouldn't have jumped through all the same administrative hoops like acquiring a residence permit as a non-EU citizen would do, so may find themselves in a legal limbo.
Basically the EEA option is the best one for Britain and for Leave in my opinion. Now it seems the polls are trying their best to prove me wrong but I said very clearly when Leave decided to go for the Complete Out option that I thought it was a mistake and had greatly diminished the chances of a Leave victory. I do still believe that if Leave had gone for the EEA option they would be much further ahead - though again the polls seems to be determined to prove me wrong.
That doesn't change the fact that I do believe the EU makes our immigration policy inherently racist. I am happy to argue that as I believe it to be true. I do strongly believe in free movement but believe that should apply to all, not just to EU citizens. But I am also sensible enough to realise that anyone standing on that platform - much like many other of my Libertarian views - is going to get absolutely nowhere. The sorts of people who view the world as I or Robert Smithson or some of the other Libertarians on here do is vanishingly small. If I was leading Leave as an ideologically pure campaign they would be in single figures.
The Britain I want is almost certainly never going to happen so I have to accept a compromise whist still being happy to argue my beliefs on here.
It is ironic: I frequently point out that Brexit is undesirable because of multiple financial penalties (opportunity cost, uncertainty, transition costs) and am content that I am correct. But the pro-REMAIN Osborne, by preannouncing a change in taxation with four month's notice, cost me about £10-20K. It's not like it was unprecedented: Lawson did the same thing in 87/88? with the same deleritous results. Damn...
Still. I have Doritos and "Watchmen" is on Film4. So life not that bad.
Ugly politics from tyson.
"Sunil says...."
The amount of personal abuse I get on this site isn't surprising. If you notice I usually always play the ball and never the player....I've had the odd dig at seanT and possibly and obliquely Plato for a bit of fun.
It is now 43-41 in favour of Leave.
I recall many comments on PB quite rightly telling Labour to sort itself out because of some anti-semitic remarks. Likewise Leave to acknowledge that they have a problem with racists and tell us what they intend to do to rectify it (assuming they do intend to do something to rectify it)
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/739207060286504960