Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
Meaning that GDP is now approximately 3.3% lower than Osborne predicted it would be.
Note also that growth in GDP per capita is approximately 0.8% lower each year than basic GDP growth.
I'm fairly certain that makes Osborne's running of the economy worse than the Treasury's own forecast for the the effects of Brexit. Which does amply demonstrate two things, 1) forecasts are crap in the short term never mind the long term, and 2) in the grand scheme of things the effects of Brexit are not that significant. A half-decent Chancellor could make more of a difference to the economy in the long term, and finding a great Chancellor and government is far more important than anything the EU can do for us.
Indeed.
The biggest long term effects are rarely predicted - we're still dealing with the effects of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait 26 years ago for example.
Likewise the productivity stagnation of the last decade, which nobody predicted, has effectively trashed all the long term models upon which government plans and pension predictions are based.
A thought on this day marked by the news on Muhammed Ali. Is the Vote Leave strategy a Rope-a-Dope strategy? For the first 15 weeks they lean on the ropes and duck and dive all of the REMAIN attacks and once these are spent, then LEAVE mount a counter attack against a tired REMAIN campaign.
Interesting concept but with postal votes out that could be risky couldn't it?
Presumably thats why Australian Rules Immigration and VAT on fuel were deployed to turn the tide just before the postal votes turned up over the last two days.
Also. I think postal voters who are unsure will sit on tbeir ballot papers a while
"When Corbyn barely acknowledged Cameron as they walked through Westminster on their way to hear the Queen’s Speech, it encapsulated his visceral reaction against working or even socialising with those outside his ideological confort zone".
Only for those who believe everything that's on TV.
Corbyn and Cameron meet together once or twice a week and work together fine. That's how it's always been with the Leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister. It gets reported in the media rarely or never - maybe once or twice in the last 40 years. They have both got appearances to keep up, markets to play to. Behind the scenery, they work together.
As for socialising together, class is everything in Britain, so of course they don't do that.
A thought on this day marked by the news on Muhammed Ali. Is the Vote Leave strategy a Rope-a-Dope strategy? For the first 15 weeks they lean on the ropes and duck and dive all of the REMAIN attacks and once these are spent, then LEAVE mount a counter attack against a tired REMAIN campaign.
Interesting concept but with postal votes out that could be risky couldn't it?
People who register for postal votes are more likely to vote.
The Conservative party seem to have the best reputation for organising their supporters to have postal votes. Conservative supporters seem to be narrowly in favour of LEAVE.
Postal votes have only just gone out - at the time the polling surveys show LEAVE moving ahead.
So two reasons above to expect a LEAVE win on postal voting.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
A life of penury but it's gotta be worth it!
penury: extreme poverty.
What a fuckin idiot you are
The authentic voice of a Faragista. Have we got a lot to look forward to.
I am constantly surprised at Michael Gove talking about VAT reductions, tons more money for the NHS etc when he is a member of a Government that increased VAT and has effectively restricted spending by the NHS.
It seems a tad hypocritical!
Incidentally, I’ve just been on a senior citizens web forum where the only comments about the EU are for Remain.
Maybe he dosent - but Labour did want to abolish vat on fuel but the EU would not let them. We are not voting for gove in thus referendum we are voting so that whoever we vote for in 2020 can aboliah VAT on fuel if that is whst the electorate desire.
Did they? With that environmental fanatic Ed Miliband at Environment? They kept it well hidden if they did.
The government put it up when they were in opposition and they affected to oppose it, and want to bring it back down.
But Labour has reduced VAT in the past. In his July 1974 mini -Budget Denis Healey cut the rate from 10% to 8% - a level at which it remained until Howe raised it to 15% in June 1979.
That was when 365 economists wrote to the Times to say that Chancellor Howe was running the country into the ground with his austerity programme.
365 economist proved to be wrong and Howe right.
No- that letter was in 1981 and many of those economists do not accept that they were wrong.
A thought on this day marked by the news on Muhammed Ali. Is the Vote Leave strategy a Rope-a-Dope strategy? For the first 15 weeks they lean on the ropes and duck and dive all of the REMAIN attacks and once these are spent, then LEAVE mount a counter attack against a tired REMAIN campaign.
Interesting concept but with postal votes out that could be risky couldn't it?
Presumably thats why Australian Rules Immigration and VAT on fuel were deployed to turn the tide just before the postal votes turned up over the last two days.
Also. I think postal voters who are unsure will sit on tbeir ballot papers a while
Normally postal voters send back their ballot straight away so they don't forget.
Haha the comments about The Open from those who would probably keep the wives off the course are very amusing. Brits can be very funny sometimes.
It's the British Open to most of the world whatever the old codgers at the R&A like to think. Just be thankful that we can still refer to a language called 'English' not 'American.' It's quite gracious of them, all things considered.
Right that's enough from me. I don't usually cross the troll bridge.
There is the British Masters of course
And we have not the British Queen but THE Queen.
In the British media, to the Dutch, the Swedes, the Spanish, the Jordanians etc who have their own Queen she is the Queen of the United Kingdom or the Queen of England
To Americans and others globally who don't have a monarch there is no doubt who The Queen is.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
A life of penury but it's gotta be worth it!
penury: extreme poverty.
What a fuckin idiot you are
The authentic voice of a Faragista. Have we got a lot to look forward to.
If you dont like it then suggest you head for the nearest Sealink terminal
I've put up with worse. I've been to boarding school.
Haha the comments about The Open from those who would probably keep the wives off the course are very amusing. Brits can be very funny sometimes.
It's the British Open to most of the world whatever the old codgers at the R&A like to think. Just be thankful that we can still refer to a language called 'English' not 'American.' It's quite gracious of them, all things considered.
Right that's enough from me. I don't usually cross the troll bridge.
I am constantly surprised at Michael Gove talking about VAT reductions, tons more money for the NHS etc when he is a member of a Government that increased VAT and has effectively restricted spending by the NHS.
It seems a tad hypocritical!
Incidentally, I’ve just been on a senior citizens web forum where the only comments about the EU are for Remain.
Maybe he dosent - but Labour did want to abolish vat on fuel but the EU would not let them. We are not voting for gove in thus referendum we are voting so that whoever we vote for in 2020 can aboliah VAT on fuel if that is whst the electorate desire.
Did they? With that environmental fanatic Ed Miliband at Environment? They kept it well hidden if they did.
The government put it up when they were in opposition and they affected to oppose it, and want to bring it back down.
But Labour has reduced VAT in the past. In his July 1974 mini -Budget Denis Healey cut the rate from 10% to 8% - a level at which it remained until Howe raised it to 15% in June 1979.
That was when 365 economists wrote to the Times to say that Chancellor Howe was running the country into the ground with his austerity programme.
365 economist proved to be wrong and Howe right.
No- that letter was in 1981 and many of those economists do not accept that they were wrong.
So they are still as dumb now as they were then. Kind of reinforces the message Leave are trying to get across.
I am constantly surprised at Michael Gove talking about VAT reductions, tons more money for the NHS etc when he is a member of a Government that increased VAT and has effectively restricted spending by the NHS.
It seems a tad hypocritical!
Incidentally, I’ve just been on a senior citizens web forum where the only comments about the EU are for Remain.
Maybe he dosent - but Labour did want to abolish vat on fuel but the EU would not let them. We are not voting for gove in thus referendum we are voting so that whoever we vote for in 2020 can aboliah VAT on fuel if that is whst the electorate desire.
Did they? With that environmental fanatic Ed Miliband at Environment? They kept it well hidden if they did.
The government put it up when they were in opposition and they affected to oppose it, and want to bring it back down.
But Labour has reduced VAT in the past. In his July 1974 mini -Budget Denis Healey cut the rate from 10% to 8% - a level at which it remained until Howe raised it to 15% in June 1979.
That was when 365 economists wrote to the Times to say that Chancellor Howe was running the country into the ground with his austerity programme.
365 economist proved to be wrong and Howe right.
No- that letter was in 1981 and many of those economists do not accept that they were wrong.
While many believe that the world is flat and the moon landings were faked.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
A life of penury but it's gotta be worth it!
penury: extreme poverty.
What a fuckin idiot you are
The authentic voice of a Faragista. Have we got a lot to look forward to.
If you dont like it then suggest you head for the nearest Sealink terminal
I've put up with worse. I've been to boarding school.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
A life of penury but it's gotta be worth it!
penury: extreme poverty.
What a fuckin idiot you are
The authentic voice of a Faragista. Have we got a lot to look forward to.
If you dont like it then suggest you head for the nearest Sealink terminal
I've put up with worse. I've been to boarding school.
I just deleted my comment as I felt it was a bit harsh.
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on and on and on.
I've no problem whatsoever with importing smart articulate people from anywhere on the globe if that helps our nation to succeed. I object strongly to opportunist whatevers who don't raise the bar.
People are constantly reminded about immigration whether politicians like it or not.
Its the 'foreign languages in the supermarket' effect.
I live in Eastbourne - when I first came down this way in 1997, it was almost exclusively stereotypical - older British residents, very polite, no graffiti, little crime or trouble. In 2016, it's staffed/cleaned by Eastern Europeans with little English, I hear other languages outside holiday season everywhere, local small businesses run by EU immigrants.
My local mega Tesco is cleaned by Spaniards, most of the local delivery drivers are EUers. Polish goods have their own section in supermarkets. It's an entirely different place.
I saw this begin 20yrs ago in London and thought it was rather odd that most service staff weren't British. Now it's arrived here.
O/t FPT I was reading the comments last night re the decimalisation discussion and how within the UK there was a sort of mix between imperial and metric. I was quite surprised given this is a betting site that no one seemed to mention the obvious one
Horses as far as I am aware are still sold in Guineas and measured in hands. Prize money in some cases is also Guineas. Not sure if there is a continental or metric equivalent for the hands ....or perhaps there is? At 21 shillings it would be two pounds 10p for a Guinea I think and whatever that is in Euro?
Isn't a Guinea £1 and one shilling. There were 20 shillings in a pound as far as I remember, which meant there were 240 pennies in a pound. My first pocket money was threepence, raised to sixpence just before decimalisation. That turned into 2.5p.
I nearly said the one pound and one shilling. Had to think but you may well be right.
Ah yes 2.5p I was going on he premise that 10p was a shilling. It's so long since I thought about it I must be fully metricated now. Or is that indoctrinated?
I remember decimalisation. And kept finding loads of old giant 2ps for years afterwards. Youngsters won't get the *toffee penny* name.
I loved threepenny bits.
A bob was 10p, hence 9 bob note as a forgery.
A bag of crisps cost sixpence (2.5p). I remember that well. Must have eaten a lot of them...
3 for 1d sweeties like Sports Mixtures or Black Jacks. 2 1/2p Tudor crisps and 7p Creme Eggs.
It must seem so foreign to Millenials. I only use metric for very small things - nths of inches is far too messy. Imperial is much better for almost everything else. I use thumbs, hands and cubits for rough estimate stuff today - so easy and readily available.
I remember getting 8 black jacks for 1 new penny as they were called. Once I spent all of my 14p pocket money on black jacks. Seemed a great idea at the start of the week.
A thought on this day marked by the news on Muhammed Ali. Is the Vote Leave strategy a Rope-a-Dope strategy? For the first 15 weeks they lean on the ropes and duck and dive all of the REMAIN attacks and once these are spent, then LEAVE mount a counter attack against a tired REMAIN campaign.
I went there too. To the same one as Seamus Milne. Do you like boot polish on your b**** and toothpaste up your a***? Perhaps that answers your question. Children shouldn't be raised in environments without love. They should live with their parents. Practically everyone in the world knows that, except the insane elite in one little country and small elements of certain elites in a small number of other countries who admire the arrogance.
Everyone who goes to boarding school and in later life goes to prison always says that prison was like water off a duck's back, given what kind of school they went to.
The only people who say they liked it at boarding school were sh*** when they were there and are still sh*** now. You know Lord of the Flies? Right.
I am constantly surprised at Michael Gove talking about VAT reductions, tons more money for the NHS etc when he is a member of a Government that increased VAT and has effectively restricted spending by the NHS.
It seems a tad hypocritical!
Incidentally, I’ve just been on a senior citizens web forum where the only comments about the EU are for Remain.
Maybe he dosent - but Labour did want to abolish vat on fuel but the EU would not let them. We are not voting for gove in thus referendum we are voting so that whoever we vote for in 2020 can aboliah VAT on fuel if that is whst the electorate desire.
Did they? With that environmental fanatic Ed Miliband at Environment? They kept it well hidden if they did.
The government put it up when they were in opposition and they affected to oppose it, and want to bring it back down.
But Labour has reduced VAT in the past. In his July 1974 mini -Budget Denis Healey cut the rate from 10% to 8% - a level at which it remained until Howe raised it to 15% in June 1979.
That was when 365 economists wrote to the Times to say that Chancellor Howe was running the country into the ground with his austerity programme.
365 economist proved to be wrong and Howe right.
No- that letter was in 1981 and many of those economists do not accept that they were wrong.
So they are still as dumb now as they were then. Kind of reinforces the message Leave are trying to get across.
I think you will find that many of those economists take the view that Howe was only saved by the sharp fall in the exchange rate related to a decline in the oil price. Howe could hardly claim credit for the expansionary effect of that.
Haha the comments about The Open from those who would probably keep the wives off the course are very amusing. Brits can be very funny sometimes.
It's the British Open to most of the world whatever the old codgers at the R&A like to think. Just be thankful that we can still refer to a language called 'English' not 'American.' It's quite gracious of them, all things considered.
Right that's enough from me. I don't usually cross the troll bridge.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
A life of penury but it's gotta be worth it!
penury: extreme poverty.
What a fuckin idiot you are
The authentic voice of a Faragista. Have we got a lot to look forward to.
If you dont like it then suggest you head for the nearest Sealink terminal
I've put up with worse. I've been to boarding school.
Haha the comments about The Open from those who would probably keep the wives off the course are very amusing. Brits can be very funny sometimes.
It's the British Open to most of the world whatever the old codgers at the R&A like to think. Just be thankful that we can still refer to a language called 'English' not 'American.' It's quite gracious of them, all things considered.
Right that's enough from me. I don't usually cross the troll bridge.
I am constantly surprised at Michael Gove talking about VAT reductions, tons more money for the NHS etc when he is a member of a Government that increased VAT and has effectively restricted spending by the NHS.
It seems a tad hypocritical!
Incidentally, I’ve just been on a senior citizens web forum where the only comments about the EU are for Remain.
Maybe he dosent - but Labour did want to abolish vat on fuel but the EU would not let them. We are not voting for gove in thus referendum we are voting so that whoever we vote for in 2020 can aboliah VAT on fuel if that is whst the electorate desire.
Did they? With that environmental fanatic Ed Miliband at Environment? They kept it well hidden if they did.
The government put it up when they were in opposition and they affected to oppose it, and want to bring it back down.
But Labour has reduced VAT in the past. In his July 1974 mini -Budget Denis Healey cut the rate from 10% to 8% - a level at which it remained until Howe raised it to 15% in June 1979.
That was when 365 economists wrote to the Times to say that Chancellor Howe was running the country into the ground with his austerity programme.
365 economist proved to be wrong and Howe right.
No- that letter was in 1981 and many of those economists do not accept that they were wrong.
So they are still as dumb now as they were then. Kind of reinforces the message Leave are trying to get across.
I think you will find that many of those economists take the view that Howe was only saved by the sharp fall in the exchange rate related to a decline in the oil price. Howe could hardly claim credit for the expansionary effect of that.
There are always unexpected events that effect outcomes. But in the end Howe was right and the economy benefited. Looking for excuses for why they turned out to be wrong seems to be a perennial occupation for economists.
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Anyone with half a brain will know Trump is coming over at this time to cause trouble. It is not coincidence that he has decided to come ahead of the polling and I'll be very surprised indeed if he keeps his mouth shut given the size of his ego. Do you really believe Cameron will be so be so stupid as to fall in with his plans and be at his beck and call? I'm sure Cameron will simply say that he has commitments and we'll see him after the Thursday.
Trump is not popular in the UK, the left of centre half of the country largely detests him and he has numerous people who don't like him on the centre-right either judging by comments on PB.
If I were a Leaver I would not be greeting his decision to come over for polling day with unalloyed joy. I doubt if he will switch many (any?) people to the Leave cause but he could well put off loads of waverers.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
A life of penury but it's gotta be worth it!
penury: extreme poverty.
What a fuckin idiot you are
The authentic voice of a Faragista. Have we got a lot to look forward to.
If you dont like it then suggest you head for the nearest Sealink terminal
I've put up with worse. I've been to boarding school.
What was so wrong with boarding school?
They sometimes used swear words
But I would not have expected to find too many 'riff raff' Labour voters there!
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is. Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on and on and on. I've no problem whatsoever with importing smart articulate people from anywhere on the globe if that helps our nation to succeed. I object strongly to opportunist whatevers who don't raise the bar.
The other point is that REMAIN believe a strategy of 19 weeks on the economy (stupid) will engage voters and think that 4 weeks on immigration is going to switch off voters.
Alistair Campbell on Newsnight said that REMAIN should stick to one strategy to win. I guess he must by now have learned from the elvis impersonator stunt at GE2010?
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
I'd happily lose economically, if we had control over our borders, law and national identity. I believe very strongly that the EU is a ball and chain on our prospects. I've no doubts that we'll succeed without them - we did so for 1000yrs.
Telling me that my mobile roaming bill might be a bit higher has no effect on me, nor that a footballer would need a visa or whatever - it's patronising noise.
O/t FPT I was reading the comments last night re the decimalisation discussion and how within the UK there was a sort of mix between imperial and metric. I was quite surprised given this is a betting site that no one seemed to mention the obvious one
Horses as far as I am aware are still sold in Guineas and measured in hands. Prize money in some cases is also Guineas. Not sure if there is a continental or metric equivalent for the hands ....or perhaps there is? At 21 shillings it would be two pounds 10p for a Guinea I think and whatever that is in Euro?
Isn't a Guinea £1 and one shilling. There were 20 shillings in a pound as far as I remember, which meant there were 240 pennies in a pound. My first pocket money was threepence, raised to sixpence just before decimalisation. That turned into 2.5p.
I nearly said the one pound and one shilling. Had to think but you may well be right.
Ah yes 2.5p I was going on he premise that 10p was a shilling. It's so long since I thought about it I must be fully metricated now. Or is that indoctrinated?
I remember decimalisation. And kept finding loads of old giant 2ps for years afterwards. Youngsters won't get the *toffee penny* name.
I loved threepenny bits.
A bob was 10p, hence 9 bob note as a forgery.
A bag of crisps cost sixpence (2.5p). I remember that well. Must have eaten a lot of them...
3 for 1d sweeties like Sports Mixtures or Black Jacks. 2 1/2p Tudor crisps and 7p Creme Eggs.
It must seem so foreign to Millenials. I only use metric for very small things - nths of inches is far too messy. Imperial is much better for almost everything else. I use thumbs, hands and cubits for rough estimate stuff today - so easy and readily available.
I remember getting 8 black jacks for 1 new penny as they were called. Once I spent all of my 14p pocket money on black jacks. Seemed a great idea at the start of the week.
Yes, 4 fruit salad or black jacks for an old penny - a farthing each.
As I understand it, Guineas came about as the gentry didn't get involved with buying and selling horses but used agents instead. The extra shilling was 'commission' to the agent.
Meaning that GDP is now approximately 3.3% lower than Osborne predicted it would be.
Note also that growth in GDP per capita is approximately 0.8% lower each year than basic GDP growth.
I'm fairly certain that makes Osborne's running of the economy worse than the Treasury's own forecast for the the effects of Brexit. Which does amply demonstrate two things, 1) forecasts are crap in the short term never mind the long term, and 2) in the grand scheme of things the effects of Brexit are not that significant. A half-decent Chancellor could make more of a difference to the economy in the long term, and finding a great Chancellor and government is far more important than anything the EU can do for us.
Indeed.
The biggest long term effects are rarely predicted - we're still dealing with the effects of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait 26 years ago for example.
Likewise the productivity stagnation of the last decade, which nobody predicted, has effectively trashed all the long term models upon which government plans and pension predictions are based.
Lack of growth in productivity is the elephant in the room.
I didn't think he came across that badly in the Vice piece.
A little out of his depth and generally useless, but not a bad person.
He should use that as a campaign slogan! I think it's enough to win some votes with public trust in politicians being so low.
I have to say that I find it difficult to think of someone who hangs around with anti-semites and terrorists as "not a bad person".
You hang around with lawyers and criminals.
You have no idea who I hang around with. And as it happens I don't hang around with criminals. I represent people who are innocent until proven guilty. And most of my work these days is on the prosecution side of the fence, as it happens. I have been responsible for a number of criminals going to prison and not being given airtime in Parliament. Whereas Corbyn lobbied for a convicted anti-semite to be heard in Parliament.
Corbyn chose who he spent time with and which organisations he would chair and play a part in and at which events he spoke. And from the record it appears that he chose to spend time with and to chair organisations and play a part in organisations and speak at events where a lot of terrorists, terrorist sympathizers and anti-semites also played a part and played a role in the organisations and spoke. That says something about the choices he made and therefore the sort of person he is, IMO.
You may choose to think me a bad person because I am a lawyer investigating bad behaviour in the financial services sector. That's your prerogative. And frankly I couldn't care less. But I am not standing for public office. Corbyn is. And his choices say something about the sort of man he is and the sort of party he leads.
Can you be convicted of anti semitism?
Raed Salah was - to be specific, he was found by a court to have uttered the medieval blood libel against Jews.
Anecdote - student on work placement with us said he still needs to apply for a postal vote. Let's see if he actually gets round to it.
I seriously wonder if petrol charges would have gone so high if we still bought it in gallons. Litres hid the cost and allowed much greater volatility in the price.
Miss Plato, I largely agree on values but there is an overlap (with the divide determined by how cynical one is about the EU) of those who liked the idea of remain with reform.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
I've just completed my postal vote . Had to restrain the force that I used to put my cross in the leave box so I didn't tear the paper.
When you commit suicide , make sure you press the trigger of the revolver harder .
Naught but REMAIN scaremongering!
Lemmings jumping off the EU cliff shouting "We Are Free We Are Free" on the way down to the rocks below .
Remind me how many seats the extremely pro-EU LibDems lost at the General Election. Ta.
The "extremely pro-EU LibDems" have been notable by their absence during the referendum.
Can honestly say I've not seen Tim Farron or any other LD MP on the TV. Not once. And given I see a disproportionate % of rolling news, that's quite a feat.
This, of course, is the choice of the media not the Lib Dems.
On the other hand it did the Lib Dems no favours for Nick Clegg to debate the EU with Nigel Farage at the European elections.
To make it clear to your voters that you are in love with the EU when >40% of them were eurosceptic was not the best move by Clegg.
Today all ex Labour Leaders, want to make it clear that their party is pro IN at the time when IN = more immigration. Therefore the better that message gets across to the working class the more they will drive away their own voters. Just as happened in the Scots independence. UKIP must be delighted.
Haha the comments about The Open from those who would probably keep the wives off the course are very amusing. Brits can be very funny sometimes.
It's the British Open to most of the world whatever the old codgers at the R&A like to think. Just be thankful that we can still refer to a language called 'English' not 'American.' It's quite gracious of them, all things considered.
Right that's enough from me. I don't usually cross the troll bridge.
There is the British Masters of course
And we have not the British Queen but THE Queen.
Doesn't the passport say "Her Brittanic Majesty"?
Is that on an EU passport?
Yep, inside front cover.
I have a cover for my passport - a proper size and black It doesn't mention the EU at all
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is. Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on and on and on. I've no problem whatsoever with importing smart articulate people from anywhere on the globe if that helps our nation to succeed. I object strongly to opportunist whatevers who don't raise the bar.
The other point is that REMAIN believe a strategy of 19 weeks on the economy (stupid) will engage voters and think that 4 weeks on immigration is going to switch off voters.
Alistair Campbell on Newsnight said that REMAIN should stick to one strategy to win. I guess he must by now have learned from the elvis impersonator stunt at GE2010?
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
I'd happily lose economically, if we had control over our borders, law and national identity. I believe very strongly that the EU is a ball and chain on our prospects. I've no doubts that we'll succeed without them - we did so for 1000yrs.
Telling me that my mobile roaming bill might be a bit higher has no effect on me, nor that a footballer would need a visa or whatever - it's patronising noise.
Anecdote - student on work placement with us said he still needs to apply for a postal vote. Let's see if he actually gets round to it.
I seriously wonder if petrol charges would have gone so high if we still bought it in gallons. Litres hid the cost and allowed much greater volatility in the price.
I thought petrol was naturally volatile - I'll get my coat
A thought on this day marked by the news on Muhammed Ali. Is the Vote Leave strategy a Rope-a-Dope strategy? For the first 15 weeks they lean on the ropes and duck and dive all of the REMAIN attacks and once these are spent, then LEAVE mount a counter attack against a tired REMAIN campaign.
Interesting concept but with postal votes out that could be risky couldn't it?
Presumably thats why Australian Rules Immigration and VAT on fuel were deployed to turn the tide just before the postal votes turned up over the last two days.
Also. I think postal voters who are unsure will sit on tbeir ballot papers a while
Normally postal voters send back their ballot straight away so they don't forget.
Our postal voters arrived on 1st June, 6 days after the immigration news from the ONS.
O/t FPT I was reading the comments last night re the decimalisation discussion and how within the UK there was a sort of mix between imperial and metric. I was quite surprised given this is a betting site that no one seemed to mention the obvious one
Horses as far as I am aware are still sold in Guineas and measured in hands. Prize money in some cases is also Guineas. Not sure if there is a continental or metric equivalent for the hands ....or perhaps there is? At 21 shillings it would be two pounds 10p for a Guinea I think and whatever that is in Euro?
Isn't a Guinea £1 and one shilling. There were 20 shillings in a pound as far as I remember, which meant there were 240 pennies in a pound. My first pocket money was threepence, raised to sixpence just before decimalisation. That turned into 2.5p.
I nearly said the one pound and one shilling. Had to think but you may well be right.
Ah yes 2.5p I was going on he premise that 10p was a shilling. It's so long since I thought about it I must be fully metricated now. Or is that indoctrinated?
I remember decimalisation. And kept finding loads of old giant 2ps for years afterwards. Youngsters won't get the *toffee penny* name.
I loved threepenny bits.
A bob was 10p, hence 9 bob note as a forgery.
A bag of crisps cost sixpence (2.5p). I remember that well. Must have eaten a lot of them...
3 for 1d sweeties like Sports Mixtures or Black Jacks. 2 1/2p Tudor crisps and 7p Creme Eggs.
It must seem so foreign to Millenials. I only use metric for very small things - nths of inches is far too messy. Imperial is much better for almost everything else. I use thumbs, hands and cubits for rough estimate stuff today - so easy and readily available.
I remember getting 8 black jacks for 1 new penny as they were called. Once I spent all of my 14p pocket money on black jacks. Seemed a great idea at the start of the week.
Yes, 4 fruit salad or black jacks for an old penny - a farthing each.
As I understand it, Guineas came about as the gentry didn't get involved with buying and selling horses but used agents instead. The extra shilling was 'commission' to the agent.
I was talking about new pennies not old ones. I missed out on old pennies really because I was in Singapore from 68-70. We came back to this new fangled idea of 100 pennies in a pound and struggled to see what the fuss was about.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
A life of penury but it's gotta be worth it!
penury: extreme poverty.
What a fuckin idiot you are
The authentic voice of a Faragista. Have we got a lot to look forward to.
If you dont like it then suggest you head for the nearest Sealink terminal
I've put up with worse. I've been to boarding school.
What was so wrong with boarding school?
They sometimes used swear words
But I would not have expected to find too many 'riff raff' Labour voters there!
Too young to know but I heard somewhere that Momentum was full of them. It's become the fashionable new red
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
3 for 1d sweeties like Sports Mixtures or Black Jacks. 2 1/2p Tudor crisps and 7p Creme Eggs.
It must seem so foreign to Millenials. I only use metric for very small things - nths of inches is far too messy. Imperial is much better for almost everything else. I use thumbs, hands and cubits for rough estimate stuff today - so easy and readily available.
I use metric for nearly everything - it's mainly a question of what you grew up with, I think, rather than intrinsic superiority of either method. But there are plenty of transitional quirks, e.g. we all buy petrol in litres, but car salesmen still talk about miles per gallon, presumably reckoning that millennials and foreigners are not the prime market for car purchase. Something that isn't a metric issue is the food instruction to add a "tablespoon full" - since you can't easily fill a tablespoon without spilling some, people either guess what this means or use those little pointy gadgets which simulate a tablespoon.
Anecdote - student on work placement with us said he still needs to apply for a postal vote. Let's see if he actually gets round to it.
I seriously wonder if petrol charges would have gone so high if we still bought it in gallons. Litres hid the cost and allowed much greater volatility in the price.
The price is displayed in great big bastard numbers on all the main roads in the country, you could measure it in ancient Egyptian hekats and people would still notice when it changed.
A thought on this day marked by the news on Muhammed Ali. Is the Vote Leave strategy a Rope-a-Dope strategy? For the first 15 weeks they lean on the ropes and duck and dive all of the REMAIN attacks and once these are spent, then LEAVE mount a counter attack against a tired REMAIN campaign.
Interesting concept but with postal votes out that could be risky couldn't it?
Presumably thats why Australian Rules Immigration and VAT on fuel were deployed to turn the tide just before the postal votes turned up over the last two days.
Also. I think postal voters who are unsure will sit on tbeir ballot papers a while
Gove mentioned last night that the economic case for Brexit details would be made next week.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
You are completely wrong about this, which may be why you make a sneering analogy with something they don't say and why you use bilious descriptors such as "this week's". Many people don't like it that people have come from elsewhere and changed the face of where they grew up. They wouldn't like that in Chipping Norton either. Are you even aware that Polish and Lithuanian building workers often work for a half or a third of British workers' wages and work long hours too? Let me guess - your answer would be "Things have always been like that", or "That's economic reality - get used to it"?
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I am constantly surprised at Michael Gove talking about VAT reductions, tons more money for the NHS etc when he is a member of a Government that increased VAT and has effectively restricted spending by the NHS.
It seems a tad hypocritical!
Incidentally, I’ve just been on a senior citizens web forum where the only comments about the EU are for Remain.
Maybe he dosent - but Labour did want to abolish vat on fuel but the EU would not let them. We are not voting for gove in thus referendum we are voting so that whoever we vote for in 2020 can aboliah VAT on fuel if that is whst the electorate desire.
Did they? With that environmental fanatic Ed Miliband at Environment? They kept it well hidden if they did.
The government put it up when they were in opposition and they affected to oppose it, and want to bring it back down.
But Labour has reduced VAT in the past. In his July 1974 mini -Budget Denis Healey cut the rate from 10% to 8% - a level at which it remained until Howe raised it to 15% in June 1979.
That was when 365 economists wrote to the Times to say that Chancellor Howe was running the country into the ground with his austerity programme.
365 economist proved to be wrong and Howe right.
No- that letter was in 1981 and many of those economists do not accept that they were wrong.
So they are still as dumb now as they were then. Kind of reinforces the message Leave are trying to get across.
I think you will find that many of those economists take the view that Howe was only saved by the sharp fall in the exchange rate related to a decline in the oil price. Howe could hardly claim credit for the expansionary effect of that.
There are always unexpected events that effect outcomes. But in the end Howe was right and the economy benefited. Looking for excuses for why they turned out to be wrong seems to be a perennial occupation for economists.
If the pound had not fallen back and so helped to offset the deflationary effect of Howe's tight fiscal policy unemployment might have headed for 4 million and the outcome would have looked very different.Thatcher probably owes her 1983 victory to the sharp fall in the exchange rate - and the Falklands War.
Haha the comments about The Open from those who would probably keep the wives off the course are very amusing. Brits can be very funny sometimes.
It's the British Open to most of the world whatever the old codgers at the R&A like to think. Just be thankful that we can still refer to a language called 'English' not 'American.' It's quite gracious of them, all things considered.
Right that's enough from me. I don't usually cross the troll bridge.
There is the British Masters of course
And we have not the British Queen but THE Queen.
Doesn't the passport say "Her Brittanic Majesty"?
Is that on an EU passport?
Yep, inside front cover.
I have a cover for my passport - a proper size and black It doesn't mention the EU at all
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is. Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on and on and on. I've no problem whatsoever with importing smart articulate people from anywhere on the globe if that helps our nation to succeed. I object strongly to opportunist whatevers who don't raise the bar.
The other point is that REMAIN believe a strategy of 19 weeks on the economy (stupid) will engage voters and think that 4 weeks on immigration is going to switch off voters.
Alistair Campbell on Newsnight said that REMAIN should stick to one strategy to win. I guess he must by now have learned from the elvis impersonator stunt at GE2010?
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
I'd happily lose economically, if we had control over our borders, law and national identity. I believe very strongly that the EU is a ball and chain on our prospects. I've no doubts that we'll succeed without them - we did so for 1000yrs.
Telling me that my mobile roaming bill might be a bit higher has no effect on me, nor that a footballer would need a visa or whatever - it's patronising noise.
I'm a Remainer for whom it's primarily about identity and historical destiny. The practical benefits are great but I'm as unimpressed with arguments such as, 'My reasons for selling my grandmother are purely economic,' as you are.
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is. Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on and on and on. I've no problem whatsoever with importing smart articulate people from anywhere on the globe if that helps our nation to succeed. I object strongly to opportunist whatevers who don't raise the bar.
The other point is that REMAIN believe a strategy of 19 weeks on the economy (stupid) will engage voters and think that 4 weeks on immigration is going to switch off voters.
Alistair Campbell on Newsnight said that REMAIN should stick to one strategy to win. I guess he must by now have learned from the elvis impersonator stunt at GE2010?
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
I'd happily lose economically, if we had control over our borders, law and national identity. I believe very strongly that the EU is a ball and chain on our prospects. I've no doubts that we'll succeed without them - we did so for 1000yrs.
Telling me that my mobile roaming bill might be a bit higher has no effect on me, nor that a footballer would need a visa or whatever - it's patronising noise.
Could it be that the key problem for REMAIN's messages is that its messages are mainly aimed at small c conservative GE2015 voters. But Labour GE2015 voters are the biggest block of REMAIN's potential vote base.
Haha the comments about The Open from those who would probably keep the wives off the course are very amusing. Brits can be very funny sometimes.
It's the British Open to most of the world whatever the old codgers at the R&A like to think. Just be thankful that we can still refer to a language called 'English' not 'American.' It's quite gracious of them, all things considered.
Right that's enough from me. I don't usually cross the troll bridge.
There is the British Masters of course
And we have not the British Queen but THE Queen.
Doesn't the passport say "Her Brittanic Majesty"?
Is that on an EU passport?
Yep, inside front cover.
I have a cover for my passport - a proper size and black It doesn't mention the EU at all
I have to say that one of the few - small - pluses I can see to Brexit will be the return of a distinctive UK passport. I doubt it'll be hard back anymore, but I bet the colour goes back to black.
If the pound had not fallen back and so helped to offset the deflationary effect of Howe's tight fiscal policy unemployment might have headed for 4 million and the outcome would have looked very different.Thatcher probably owes her 1983 victory to the sharp fall in the exchange rate - and the Falklands War.
This old myth was disproved long ago by the polls.
I am constantly surprised at Michael Gove talking about VAT reductions, tons more money for the NHS etc when he is a member of a Government that increased VAT and has effectively restricted spending by the NHS.
It seems a tad hypocritical!
Incidentally, I’ve just been on a senior citizens web forum where the only comments about the EU are for Remain.
Maybe he dosent - but Labour did want to abolish vat on fuel but the EU would not let them. We are not voting for gove in thus referendum we are voting so that whoever we vote for in 2020 can aboliah VAT on fuel if that is whst the electorate desire.
Did they? With that environmental fanatic Ed Miliband at Environment? They kept it well hidden if they did.
The government put it up when they were in opposition and they affected to oppose it, and want to bring it back down.
But Labour has reduced VAT in the past. In his July 1974 mini -Budget Denis Healey cut the rate from 10% to 8% - a level at which it remained until Howe raised it to 15% in June 1979.
That was when 365 economists wrote to the Times to say that Chancellor Howe was running the country into the ground with his austerity programme.
365 economist proved to be wrong and Howe right.
No- that letter was in 1981 and many of those economists do not accept that they were wrong.
While many believe that the world is flat and the moon landings were faked.
I've someone in my timeline who's convinced it was faked... I see endless NASA PR photos with explanations of what's wrong with them, and arguments about how the landing bod didn't blast off at all.
Anecdote: Big banner "Stop the EU Dictatorship" plastered across the double gates of a drive in Epping.
I doubt they are C2DE voters.
I remember driving through a sea of blue posters in Somerset which probably represented one family and I thought it very unfair that with all that land they didn't get more than one vote each
Lack of growth in productivity is the elephant in the room.
What building company or monylender cares how many bricks a brickie can lay in an hour when they're hiring a Pole who works 4 more hours a day than the British guy used to, on half the wages?
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
Exactly so. It's not just that I disagree with the arguments being put forward by Leave. It's more fundamental than that. I can't even relate to any of the points that Leave raise because there's no overlap at all between the Leave world view and my world view. It makes it hard for me to debate with Leavers when nothing they say makes any sense to me. I fully appreciate that this works both ways and that the arguments being put forward by Remain don't make any sense to Leavers either.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
I didn't think he came across that badly in the Vice piece.
A little out of his depth and generally useless, but not a bad person.
He should use that as a campaign slogan! I think it's enough to win some votes with public trust in politicians being so low.
I have to say that I find it difficult to think of someone who hangs around with anti-semites and terrorists as "not a bad person".
You hang around with lawyers and criminals.
You have no idea who I hang around with. And as it happens I don't hang around with criminals. I represent people who are innocent until proven guilty. And most of my work these days is on the prosecution side of the fence, as it happens. I have been responsible for a number of criminals going to prison and not being given airtime in Parliament. Whereas Corbyn lobbied for a convicted anti-semite to be heard in Parliament.
Corbyn chose who he spent time with and which organisations he would chair and play a part in and at which events he spoke. And from the record it appears that he chose to spend time with and to chair organisations and play a part in organisations and speak at events where a lot of terrorists, terrorist sympathizers and anti-semites also played a part and played a role in the organisations and spoke. That says something about the choices he made and therefore the sort of person he is, IMO.
You may choose to think me a bad person because I am a lawyer investigating bad behaviour in the financial services sector. That's your prerogative. And frankly I couldn't care less. But I am not standing for public office. Corbyn is. And his choices say something about the sort of man he is and the sort of party he leads.
Can you be convicted of anti semitism?
Raed Salah was - to be specific, he was found by a court to have uttered the medieval blood libel against Jews.
Where was the court? Surely not in the UK. I think it's only a crime in certain EU countries and Israel. I cant find the conviction
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Miss Plato, I largely agree on values but there is an overlap (with the divide determined by how cynical one is about the EU) of those who liked the idea of remain with reform.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
I think one of the reasons Cameron has got himself in such a terrible position within his party is that too many people read into 'reform' whatever they wanted, however unrealistic it was. If anyone thought we could reconstitute the EU from the ground up into something completely different they were deluded, and as people now understand, that was never what Cameron and the majority of the political establishment in the UK wanted.
O/t FPT I was reading the comments last night re the decimalisation discussion and how within the UK there was a sort of mix between imperial and metric. I was quite surprised given this is a betting site that no one seemed to mention the obvious one
Horses as far as I am aware are still sold in Guineas and measured in hands. Prize money in some cases is also Guineas. Not sure if there is a continental or metric equivalent for the hands ....or perhaps there is? At 21 shillings it would be two pounds 10p for a Guinea I think and whatever that is in Euro?
Isn't a Guinea £1 and one shilling. There were 20 shillings in a pound as far as I remember, which meant there were 240 pennies in a pound. My first pocket money was threepence, raised to sixpence just before decimalisation. That turned into 2.5p.
I nearly said the one pound and one shilling. Had to think but you may well be right.
Ah yes 2.5p I was going on he premise that 10p was a shilling. It's so long since I thought about it I must be fully metricated now. Or is that indoctrinated?
I remember decimalisation. And kept finding loads of old giant 2ps for years afterwards. Youngsters won't get the *toffee penny* name.
I loved threepenny bits.
A bob was 10p, hence 9 bob note as a forgery.
A bag of crisps cost sixpence (2.5p). I remember that well. Must have eaten a lot of them...
3 for 1d sweeties like Sports Mixtures or Black Jacks. 2 1/2p Tudor crisps and 7p Creme Eggs.
It must seem so foreign to Millenials. I only use metric for very small things - nths of inches is far too messy. Imperial is much better for almost everything else. I use thumbs, hands and cubits for rough estimate stuff today - so easy and readily available.
I remember getting 8 black jacks for 1 new penny as they were called. Once I spent all of my 14p pocket money on black jacks. Seemed a great idea at the start of the week.
You did get a black tongue though I liked Fruit Salads. I bought a packet the other day - all soft instead, urgh.
O/t FPT I was reading the comments last night re the decimalisation discussion and how within the UK there was a sort of mix between imperial and metric. I was quite surprised given this is a betting site that no one seemed to mention the obvious one
Horses as far as I am aware are still sold in Guineas and measured in hands. Prize money in some cases is also Guineas. Not sure if there is a continental or metric equivalent for the hands ....or perhaps there is? At 21 shillings it would be two pounds 10p for a Guinea I think and whatever that is in Euro?
Isn't a Guinea £1 and one shilling. There were 20 shillings in a pound as far as I remember, which meant there were 240 pennies in a pound. My first pocket money was threepence, raised to sixpence just before decimalisation. That turned into 2.5p.
I nearly said the one pound and one shilling. Had to think but you may well be right.
Ah yes 2.5p I was going on he premise that 10p was a shilling. It's so long since I thought about it I must be fully metricated now. Or is that indoctrinated?
I remember decimalisation. And kept finding loads of old giant 2ps for years afterwards. Youngsters won't get the *toffee penny* name.
I loved threepenny bits.
A bob was 10p, hence 9 bob note as a forgery.
A bag of crisps cost sixpence (2.5p). I remember that well. Must have eaten a lot of them...
3 for 1d sweeties like Sports Mixtures or Black Jacks. 2 1/2p Tudor crisps and 7p Creme Eggs.
It must seem so foreign to Millenials. I only use metric for very small things - nths of inches is far too messy. Imperial is much better for almost everything else. I use thumbs, hands and cubits for rough estimate stuff today - so easy and readily available.
Perhaps sadly, metric is now dominant in unexpected areas. I am still thrown by references in Noughties Top Gear to kph instead of mph, and wood is bought in metric (although it's obviously still 2by4!)
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is. Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on and on and on. I've no problem whatsoever with importing smart articulate people from anywhere on the globe if that helps our nation to succeed. I object strongly to opportunist whatevers who don't raise the bar.
The other point is that REMAIN believe a strategy of 19 weeks on the economy (stupid) will engage voters and think that 4 weeks on immigration is going to switch off voters.
Alistair Campbell on Newsnight said that REMAIN should stick to one strategy to win. I guess he must by now have learned from the elvis impersonator stunt at GE2010?
I'd happily lose economically...I've no doubts that we'll succeed without them...
Is the logic problem we are dealing with with Leavers.
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Trump is due to come the day after the referendum day so too late to change voting.
Some one posted earlier today that he has changed plans so now coming on 22 not 24
Miss Plato, I largely agree on values but there is an overlap (with the divide determined by how cynical one is about the EU) of those who liked the idea of remain with reform.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
I think one of the reasons Cameron has got himself in such a terrible position within his party is that too many people read into 'reform' whatever they wanted, however unrealistic it was. If anyone thought we could reconstitute the EU from the ground up into something completely different they were deluded, and as people now understand, that was never what Cameron and the majority of the political establishment in the UK wanted.
Of course not. We all know that. All they ever wanted was enough of a change to be able to sell it to the public as reform so they could then win the referendum and have the EU carry on as before on its federalist trajectory.
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is. Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on and on and on. I've no problem whatsoever with importing smart articulate people from anywhere on the globe if that helps our nation to succeed. I object strongly to opportunist whatevers who don't raise the bar.
The other point is that REMAIN believe a strategy of 19 weeks on the economy (stupid) will engage voters and think that 4 weeks on immigration is going to switch off voters.
Alistair Campbell on Newsnight said that REMAIN should stick to one strategy to win. I guess he must by now have learned from the elvis impersonator stunt at GE2010?
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
I'd happily lose economically, if we had control over our borders, law and national identity. I believe very strongly that the EU is a ball and chain on our prospects. I've no doubts that we'll succeed without them - we did so for 1000yrs.
Telling me that my mobile roaming bill might be a bit higher has no effect on me, nor that a footballer would need a visa or whatever - it's patronising noise.
Let's end this economic doom nonsense.
The only real risk is the short-term transition costs.
In the medium-term, to c.2030, it makes precious little difference either way.
In the long-term, we'll be better off economically out and able to trade freely, and respond far more flexibly, to the global challenges and opportunities of the 21st Century.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
They won't suffer materially, you are right. But they will suffer an epic humiliation. It is this aspect which some find attractive.
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Cameron won't meet him.
Probably the only reason Trump is supporting BrExit is because Cameron went around calling him a dangerous idiot to anyone listening, but then Dave never really did get this international politics idea.... even if its a Remain might be best to resign early if Trump wins
Anecdote - student on work placement with us said he still needs to apply for a postal vote. Let's see if he actually gets round to it.
I'm saving up to buy my old Triumph Spitfire back from my ex. He demanded her as part of our divorce. I'll need to get extra creative about fuel since she runs on 4*...
I didn't think he came across that badly in the Vice piece.
A little out of his depth and generally useless, but not a bad person.
He should use that as a campaign slogan! I think it's enough to win some votes with public trust in politicians being so low.
I have to say that I find it difficult to think of someone who hangs around with anti-semites and terrorists as "not a bad person".
You hang around with lawyers and criminals.
You have no idea who I hang around with. And as it happens I don't hang around with criminals. I represent people who are innocent until proven guilty. And most of my work these days is on the prosecution side of the fence, as it happens. I have been responsible for a number of criminals going to prison and not being given airtime in Parliament. Whereas Corbyn lobbied for a convicted anti-semite to be heard in Parliament.
Corbyn chose who he spent time with and which organisations he would chair and play a part in and at which events he spoke. And from the record it appears that he chose to spend time with and to chair organisations and play a part in organisations and speak at events where a lot of terrorists, terrorist sympathizers and anti-semites also played a part and played a role in the organisations and spoke. That says something about the choices he made and therefore the sort of person he is, IMO.
You may choose to think me a bad person because I am a lawyer investigating bad behaviour in the financial services sector. That's your prerogative. And frankly I couldn't care less. But I am not standing for public office. Corbyn is. And his choices say something about the sort of man he is and the sort of party he leads.
Can you be convicted of anti semitism?
Raed Salah was - to be specific, he was found by a court to have uttered the medieval blood libel against Jews.
Where was the court? Surely not in the UK. I think it's only a crime in certain EU countries and Israel. I cant find the conviction
I didn't think he came across that badly in the Vice piece.
A little out of his depth and generally useless, but not a bad person.
He should use that as a campaign slogan! I think it's enough to win some votes with public trust in politicians being so low.
I have to say that I find it difficult to think of someone who hangs around with anti-semites and terrorists as "not a bad person".
You hang around with lawyers and criminals.
You have no idea who I hang around with. And as it happens I don't hang around with criminals. I represent people who are innocent until proven guilty. And most of my work these days is on the prosecution side of the fence, as it happens. I have been responsible for a number of criminals going to prison and not being given airtime in Parliament. Whereas Corbyn lobbied for a convicted anti-semite to be heard in Parliament.
Corbyn chose who he spent time with and which organisations he would chair and play a part in and at which events he spoke. And from the record it appears that he chose to spend time with and to chair organisations and play a part in organisations and speak at events where a lot of terrorists, terrorist sympathizers and anti-semites also played a part and played a role in the organisations and spoke. That says something about the choices he made and therefore the sort of person he is, IMO.
You may choose to think me a bad person because I am a lawyer investigating bad behaviour in the financial services sector. That's your prerogative. And frankly I couldn't care less. But I am not standing for public office. Corbyn is. And his choices say something about the sort of man he is and the sort of party he leads.
Can you be convicted of anti semitism?
Raed Salah was - to be specific, he was found by a court to have uttered the medieval blood libel against Jews.
Where was the court? Surely not in the UK. I think it's only a crime in certain EU countries and Israel. I cant find the conviction
I will try and find the reference later and send it to you. From memory, I don't believe it was a criminal conviction but a finding of a foreign court, which was recognised in an English court in separate proceedings (possibly libel ones - but can't be certain).
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
They won't suffer materially, you are right. But they will suffer an epic humiliation. It is this aspect which some find attractive.
I am sure they will get over it. Ordinary punters who end up getting shafted because the claims Leave made were wrong will be less fortunate, of course.
O/t FPT I was reading the comments last night re the decimalisation discussion and how within the UK there was a sort of mix between imperial and metric. I was quite surprised given this is a betting site that no one seemed to mention the obvious one
Horses as far as I am aware are still sold in Guineas and measured in hands. Prize money in some cases is also Guineas. Not sure if there is a continental or metric equivalent for the hands ....or perhaps there is? At 21 shillings it would be two pounds 10p for a Guinea I think and whatever that is in Euro?
Isn't a Guinea £1 and one shilling. There were 20 shillings in a pound as far as I remember, which meant there were 240 pennies in a pound. My first pocket money was threepence, raised to sixpence just before decimalisation. That turned into 2.5p.
I nearly said the one pound and one shilling. Had to think but you may well be right.
Ah yes 2.5p I was going on he premise that 10p was a shilling. It's so long since I thought about it I must be fully metricated now. Or is that indoctrinated?
I remember decimalisation. And kept finding loads of old giant 2ps for years afterwards. Youngsters won't get the *toffee penny* name.
I loved threepenny bits.
A bob was 10p, hence 9 bob note as a forgery.
When I was about 10 my dad came to give a talk at school. He first passed around a big bag of thru'penny bits. Then an envelope with a piece of paper in it*. He asked us which was more valuable... of course we all got it wrong...
* it was a shorter dated government bond that he'd borrowed - had quite a few zeros on it
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Cameron won't meet him.
He will have to. Just as he had to stand next to Sadiq. I think Charles is onto something.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
They won't suffer materially, you are right. But they will suffer an epic humiliation. It is this aspect which some find attractive.
In a way it's a pity that there isn't an option for giving the political class, including the EU establishment, an almighty humiliation and fright and telling them to go away and renegotiate an appropriate relationship between Britain and the EU properly this time.
I watched the Sky News debate , thought Michael Gove was good , even with a difficult hand regarding the economy. If leave win , I hope he changes his mind regarding becoming PM. As he seems a man of principle , who hopefully will negotiate what is required for the UK.
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
Exactly so. It's not just that I disagree with the arguments being put forward by Leave. It's more fundamental than that. I can't even relate to any of the points that Leave raise because there's no overlap at all between the Leave world view and my world view. It makes it hard for me to debate with Leavers when nothing they say makes any sense to me. I fully appreciate that this works both ways and that the arguments being put forward by Remain don't make any sense to Leavers either.
Mr. Whaley, the problem that you mention is not confined to the Referendum, or indeed to politics generally (though that is probably where we most often recognise it). It is I suggest a fact of life and the greatest hidden block to human communication.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
They'll suffer a loss of political influence, and, most importantly for me, the loss of an excuse such as 'we can't do that (eminently sensible suggestion) because of EU rules' to hide behind.
I went there too. To the same one as Seamus Milne. Do you like boot polish on your b**** and toothpaste up your a***? Perhaps that answers your question. Children shouldn't be raised in environments without love. They should live with their parents. Practically everyone in the world knows that, except the insane elite in one little country and small elements of certain elites in a small number of other countries who admire the arrogance.
Everyone who goes to boarding school and in later life goes to prison always says that prison was like water off a duck's back, given what kind of school they went to.
The only people who say they liked it at boarding school were sh*** when they were there and are still sh*** now. You know Lord of the Flies? Right.
I can't imagine anything worse myself - though some seem to find it okay - like Mean Girls/socially popular who've no idea of what the others experience.
Being trapped and unhappy must be awful. Especially when your own parents stuck you there.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
Is it possible that a large group of voters want to give the Govt a kicking? The answer is yes they might be. The difference in how the audience reacted to two members of the Govt might be an indication. Tories not in Govt are also way ahead of Cameron on trust ratings.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
They won't suffer materially, you are right. But they will suffer an epic humiliation. It is this aspect which some find attractive.
I am sure they will get over it. Ordinary punters who end up getting shafted because the claims Leave made were wrong will be less fortunate, of course.
It's predominantly the ordinary punters that will be voting for it, at some point you have to treat the public like grown-ups.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
They won't suffer materially, you are right. But they will suffer an epic humiliation. It is this aspect which some find attractive.
The establishment won't. The Church of England, army officer corps, monarchy, Clarendon schools, Oxford and Cambridge universities, BBC, the Athenaeum and Whites and Brooks's clubs won't. Wimbledon tennis will go ahead. Who will suffer an epic humiliation will be the wing of the Tory party who aren't so rabid when the cameras aren't running, and the main part of the political class, some of whom aren't establishment.
Miss Plato, I largely agree on values but there is an overlap (with the divide determined by how cynical one is about the EU) of those who liked the idea of remain with reform.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
Gove made an evocative visual point last night about the power of *the removals van* at Downing St every 5 or 10 yrs. We can't do that with any EU bod.
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is. Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on and on and on. I've no problem whatsoever with importing smart articulate people from anywhere on the globe if that helps our nation to succeed. I object strongly to opportunist whatevers who don't raise the bar.
The other point is that REMAIN believe a strategy of 19 weeks on the economy (stupid) will engage voters and think that 4 weeks on immigration is going to switch off voters.
Alistair Campbell on Newsnight said that REMAIN should stick to one strategy to win. I guess he must by now have learned from the elvis impersonator stunt at GE2010?
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
I'd happily lose economically, if we had control over our borders, law and national identity. I believe very strongly that the EU is a ball and chain on our prospects. I've no doubts that we'll succeed without them - we did so for 1000yrs.
Telling me that my mobile roaming bill might be a bit higher has no effect on me, nor that a footballer would need a visa or whatever - it's patronising noise.
Could it be that the key problem for REMAIN's messages is that its messages are mainly aimed at small c conservative GE2015 voters. But Labour GE2015 voters are the biggest block of REMAIN's potential vote base.
Remain's problem is they are starting to look like they represent the fringe of society, not the centre.
Are you even aware that Polish and Lithuanian building workers often work for a half or a third of British workers' wages and work long hours too?
I did not know that. Thank you for informing me. I don't think it contradicts my point that LEAVE's position is overwhelmingly anti-immigration but thank you nevertheless.
I went there too. To the same one as Seamus Milne. Do you like boot polish on your b**** and toothpaste up your a***? Perhaps that answers your question. Children shouldn't be raised in environments without love. They should live with their parents. Practically everyone in the world knows that, except the insane elite in one little country and small elements of certain elites in a small number of other countries who admire the arrogance.
Everyone who goes to boarding school and in later life goes to prison always says that prison was like water off a duck's back, given what kind of school they went to.
The only people who say they liked it at boarding school were sh*** when they were there and are still sh*** now. You know Lord of the Flies? Right.
That is very bad, I agree, but I assume that it was other boys were responsible for the incidents you allude to.I attended a very strict Boys'Grammar School in the late 60s and early 70s, and -from what I have heard from boys who were privately educated at the same time - we actually faced a tougher disciplinary environment than they did! Many pupils were beaten to the point that they were made to bleed - and others remained bruised for three to four weeks after being punished. I have pointed out on the Facebook page relating to that school that the boys concerned were not punished - but physically abused, and that the Headmaster was guilty of Actual Bodily Harm (ABH). I was never a victim myself, but have tried to get them interested in exposing the Head to the local press - though he died 13 years ago. Getting the press interested has not been that easy alas!
Miss Plato, I largely agree on values but there is an overlap (with the divide determined by how cynical one is about the EU) of those who liked the idea of remain with reform.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
I think one of the reasons Cameron has got himself in such a terrible position within his party is that too many people read into 'reform' whatever they wanted, however unrealistic it was. If anyone thought we could reconstitute the EU from the ground up into something completely different they were deluded, and as people now understand, that was never what Cameron and the majority of the political establishment in the UK wanted.
Of course not. We all know that. All they ever wanted was enough of a change to be able to sell it to the public as reform so they could then win the referendum and have the EU carry on as before on its federalist trajectory.
Richard surely if remain win they will have to be honest about the federalist trajectory ? As the referendum will have highlighted the issues , to a wider more informed public . Maybe that is to an optimistic outcome.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
They won't suffer materially, you are right. But they will suffer an epic humiliation. It is this aspect which some find attractive.
In a way it's a pity that there isn't an option for giving the political class, including the EU establishment, an almighty humiliation and fright and telling them to go away and renegotiate an appropriate relationship between Britain and the EU properly this time.
They will be consigned to a darkened room to meditate on the words of the Magnificat.
deposouit potentes de sede he hath put down the mighty from their seat
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
They'll suffer a loss of political influence, and, most importantly for me, the loss of an excuse such as 'we can't do that (eminently sensible suggestion) because of EU rules' to hide behind.
... and our civil service lose the excuse "we have to do this because of the EU".
Comments
The biggest long term effects are rarely predicted - we're still dealing with the effects of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait 26 years ago for example.
Likewise the productivity stagnation of the last decade, which nobody predicted, has effectively trashed all the long term models upon which government plans and pension predictions are based.
Also. I think postal voters who are unsure will sit on tbeir ballot papers a while
Only for those who believe everything that's on TV.
Corbyn and Cameron meet together once or twice a week and work together fine. That's how it's always been with the Leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister. It gets reported in the media rarely or never - maybe once or twice in the last 40 years. They have both got appearances to keep up, markets to play to. Behind the scenery, they work together.
As for socialising together, class is everything in Britain, so of course they don't do that.
People who register for postal votes are more likely to vote.
The Conservative party seem to have the best reputation for organising their supporters to have postal votes. Conservative supporters seem to be narrowly in favour of LEAVE.
Postal votes have only just gone out - at the time the polling surveys show LEAVE moving ahead.
So two reasons above to expect a LEAVE win on postal voting.
Normally postal voters send back their ballot straight away so they don't forget.
Not as harsh as your alma mater alas it seems :-)
My local mega Tesco is cleaned by Spaniards, most of the local delivery drivers are EUers. Polish goods have their own section in supermarkets. It's an entirely different place.
I saw this begin 20yrs ago in London and thought it was rather odd that most service staff weren't British. Now it's arrived here.
And pay for petrol by the gallon?
Anecdote - student on work placement with us said he still needs to apply for a postal vote. Let's see if he actually gets round to it.
Do you like boot polish on your b**** and toothpaste up your a***? Perhaps that answers your question.
Children shouldn't be raised in environments without love. They should live with their parents. Practically everyone in the world knows that, except the insane elite in one little country and small elements of certain elites in a small number of other countries who admire the arrogance.
Everyone who goes to boarding school and in later life goes to prison always says that prison was like water off a duck's back, given what kind of school they went to.
The only people who say they liked it at boarding school were sh*** when they were there and are still sh*** now. You know Lord of the Flies? Right.
Is that on an EU passport?
Trump is not popular in the UK, the left of centre half of the country largely detests him and he has numerous people who don't like him on the centre-right either judging by comments on PB.
If I were a Leaver I would not be greeting his decision to come over for polling day with unalloyed joy. I doubt if he will switch many (any?) people to the Leave cause but he could well put off loads of waverers.
I'd happily lose economically, if we had control over our borders, law and national identity. I believe very strongly that the EU is a ball and chain on our prospects. I've no doubts that we'll succeed without them - we did so for 1000yrs.
Telling me that my mobile roaming bill might be a bit higher has no effect on me, nor that a footballer would need a visa or whatever - it's patronising noise.
As I understand it, Guineas came about as the gentry didn't get involved with buying and selling horses but used agents instead. The extra shilling was 'commission' to the agent.
Lack of growth in productivity is the elephant in the room.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
Today all ex Labour Leaders, want to make it clear that their party is pro IN at the time when IN = more immigration. Therefore the better that message gets across to the working class the more they will drive away their own voters. Just as happened in the Scots independence. UKIP must be delighted.
I doubt they are C2DE voters.
It's just silly and childish.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
Takes all sorts. I miss @Tapestry.
For lovers of vintage sweets - this site is rather good, I've bought loads http://www.aquarterof.co.uk/
The only real risk is the short-term transition costs.
In the medium-term, to c.2030, it makes precious little difference either way.
In the long-term, we'll be better off economically out and able to trade freely, and respond far more flexibly, to the global challenges and opportunities of the 21st Century.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoxxHeBJmz8
* it was a shorter dated government bond that he'd borrowed - had quite a few zeros on it
If leave win , I hope he changes his mind regarding becoming PM.
As he seems a man of principle , who hopefully will negotiate what is required for the UK.
Being trapped and unhappy must be awful. Especially when your own parents stuck you there.
As the referendum will have highlighted the issues , to a wider more informed public .
Maybe that is to an optimistic outcome.
deposouit potentes de sede
he hath put down the mighty from their seat