As a change from EU: Anyone having further thoughts on Veep candidates? I may have not been tracking this correctly but it seems on BF that Christie has come in a bit in last few days.
If the pound had not fallen back and so helped to offset the deflationary effect of Howe's tight fiscal policy unemployment might have headed for 4 million and the outcome would have looked very different.Thatcher probably owes her 1983 victory to the sharp fall in the exchange rate - and the Falklands War.
This old myth was disproved long ago by the polls.
Not so - there is polling evidence to show some recovery in Tory support before the Falklands conflict but by that time the economy was benefitting from a weaker pound. The Crosby by-election defeat was barely four months before the Falklands was invaded - and Hillhead just a few days!
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
I had not thought of it in that way, but you are true. As in the suggestions that "These are our european brothers and sisters our kith and kin, we are european".
Anecdote: Big banner "Stop the EU Dictatorship" plastered across the double gates of a drive in Epping.
I doubt they are C2DE voters.
I remember driving through a sea of blue posters in Somerset which probably represented one family and I thought it very unfair that with all that land they didn't get more than one vote each
As a change from EU: Anyone having further thoughts on Veep candidates? I may have not been tracking this correctly but it seems on BF that Christie has come in a bit in last few days.
Rod's suggestion of McSandy seems solid to me, or possibly Joni Ernst for broadly the same reasons, but less compellingly.
Miss Plato, I largely agree on values but there is an overlap (with the divide determined by how cynical one is about the EU) of those who liked the idea of remain with reform.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
I think one of the reasons Cameron has got himself in such a terrible position within his party is that too many people read into 'reform' whatever they wanted, however unrealistic it was. If anyone thought we could reconstitute the EU from the ground up into something completely different they were deluded, and as people now understand, that was never what Cameron and the majority of the political establishment in the UK wanted.
Of course not. We all know that. All they ever wanted was enough of a change to be able to sell it to the public as reform so they could then win the referendum and have the EU carry on as before on its federalist trajectory.
Richard surely if remain win they will have to be honest about the federalist trajectory ? As the referendum will have highlighted the issues , to a wider more informed public . Maybe that is to an optimistic outcome.
But it's not just this issue where the political class and the media have a weird aversion to telling it like it is. That tendency covers a whole range of subjects.
We collectively need to be more grown up and refuse to allow a situation to continue where a politician being honest is regarded as a gaffe.
Haha the comments about The Open from those who would probably keep the wives off the course are very amusing. Brits can be very funny sometimes.
It's the British Open to most of the world whatever the old codgers at the R&A like to think. Just be thankful that we can still refer to a language called 'English' not 'American.' It's quite gracious of them, all things considered.
Right that's enough from me. I don't usually cross the troll bridge.
There is the British Masters of course
And we have not the British Queen but THE Queen.
In the British media, to the Dutch, the Swedes, the Spanish, the Jordanians etc who have their own Queen she is the Queen of the United Kingdom or the Queen of England
To Americans and others globally who don't have a monarch there is no doubt who The Queen is.
Most Americans still refer to the 'Queen of England' not just 'The Queen'
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is. Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on and on and on. I've no problem whatsoever with importing smart articulate people from anywhere on the globe if that helps our nation to succeed. I object strongly to opportunist whatevers who don't raise the bar.
The other point is that REMAIN believe a strategy of 19 weeks on the economy (stupid) will engage voters and think that 4 weeks on immigration is going to switch off voters.
Alistair Campbell on Newsnight said that REMAIN should stick to one strategy to win. I guess he must by now have learned from the elvis impersonator stunt at GE2010?
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
I'd happily lose economically, if we had control over our borders, law and national identity. I believe very strongly that the EU is a ball and chain on our prospects. I've no doubts that we'll succeed without them - we did so for 1000yrs.
Telling me that my mobile roaming bill might be a bit higher has no effect on me, nor that a footballer would need a visa or whatever - it's patronising noise.
Could it be that the key problem for REMAIN's messages is that its messages are mainly aimed at small c conservative GE2015 voters. But Labour GE2015 voters are the biggest block of REMAIN's potential vote base.
IMHO, I think far too many of the message makers in Remain are well off middle-class urbanites. They talk about house prices et al - which is totally irrelevant to those who rent, stuck living with parents, or in social housing.
And sneer at those who don't consider the groovy new Bulgarian eatery down the road as a price worth paying. Or having their local shops filled with goods from Poland.
This referendum has totally changed the game. The entitled well off from both Labour/Tories against those who aren't and feel threatened/alienated and forgotten.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
The number of non-EU immigrants is not going to rise as a result of Brexit.
As a change from EU: Anyone having further thoughts on Veep candidates? I may have not been tracking this correctly but it seems on BF that Christie has come in a bit in last few days.
Rod's suggestion of McSandy seems solid to me, or possibly Joni Ernst for broadly the same reasons, but less compellingly.
Interesting article in McSally's local paper yesterday. She's still being coy about supporting Trump.
I didn't think he came across that badly in the Vice piece.
A little out of his depth and generally useless, but not a bad person.
He should use that as a campaign slogan! I think it's enough to win some votes with public trust in politicians being so low.
I have to say that I find it difficult to think of someone who hangs around with anti-semites and terrorists as "not a bad person".
You hang around with lawyers and criminals.
You have no idea who I hang around with. And as it happens I don't hang around with criminals. I represent people who are innocent until proven guilty. And most of my work these days is on the prosecution side of the fence, as it happens. I have been responsible for a number of criminals going to prison and not being given airtime in Parliament. Whereas Corbyn lobbied for a convicted anti-semite to be heard in Parliament.
Corbyn chose who he spent time with and which organisations he would chair and play a part in and at which events he spoke. And from the record it appears that he chose to spend time with and to chair organisations and play a part in organisations and speak at events where a lot of terrorists, terrorist sympathizers and anti-semites also played a part and played a role in the organisations and spoke. That says something about the choices he made and therefore the sort of person he is, IMO.
You may choose to think me a bad person because I am a lawyer investigating bad behaviour in the financial services sector. That's your prerogative. And frankly I couldn't care less. But I am not standing for public office. Corbyn is. And his choices say something about the sort of man he is and the sort of party he leads.
Can you be convicted of anti semitism?
Raed Salah was - to be specific, he was found by a court to have uttered the medieval blood libel against Jews.
Where was the court? Surely not in the UK. I think it's only a crime in certain EU countries and Israel. I cant find the conviction
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
They'll suffer a loss of political influence, and, most importantly for me, the loss of an excuse such as 'we can't do that (eminently sensible suggestion) because of EU rules' to hide behind.
Their political influence in this country will be exactly the same. There is no-one to replace them. The Leavers are as much part of the establishment as the Remainers. I do agree, though, that outside the UK their influence will be reduced.
As a change from EU: Anyone having further thoughts on Veep candidates? I may have not been tracking this correctly but it seems on BF that Christie has come in a bit in last few days.
Rod's suggestion of McSandy seems solid to me, or possibly Joni Ernst for broadly the same reasons, but less compellingly.
I have bets on both thanks to Rod's advice. Seems that Newt is the one everyone thinks it is most likely to be, thanks to his government experience.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
The number of non-EU immigrants is not going to rise as a result of Brexit.
That would be a matter of policy for the government of the day to decide, would it not?
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
The number of non-EU immigrants is not going to rise as a result of Brexit.
If the points system is introduced people will be treated the same regardless of where they come from, it will be skills, abilities and contribution to the nation that will matter, the PROPORTION of immigrants from outside the EU will probably go up dramatically.
This referendum has totally changed the game. The entitled well off from both Labour/Tories against those who aren't and feel threatened/alienated and forgotten.
Gove and Boris Johnson hardly epitomise the alienated and forgotten. They're just manipulating them as a tool to win their political turf war.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
That isn't an argument that would hold much water.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
They'll suffer a loss of political influence, and, most importantly for me, the loss of an excuse such as 'we can't do that (eminently sensible suggestion) because of EU rules' to hide behind.
We will await eagerly the zero-rating of VAT on home fuel bills.
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is. Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on and on and on. I've no problem whatsoever with importing smart articulate people from anywhere on the globe if that helps our nation to succeed. I object strongly to opportunist whatevers who don't raise the bar.
The other point is that REMAIN believe a strategy of 19 weeks on the economy (stupid) will engage voters and think that 4 weeks on immigration is going to switch off voters.
Alistair Campbell on Newsnight said that REMAIN should stick to one strategy to win. I guess he must by now have learned from the elvis impersonator stunt at GE2010?
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
I'd happily lose economically, if we had control over our borders, law and national identity. I believe very strongly that the EU is a ball and chain on our prospects. I've no doubts that we'll succeed without them - we did so for 1000yrs.
Telling me that my mobile roaming bill might be a bit higher has no effect on me, nor that a footballer would need a visa or whatever - it's patronising noise.
Could it be that the key problem for REMAIN's messages is that its messages are mainly aimed at small c conservative GE2015 voters. But Labour GE2015 voters are the biggest block of REMAIN's potential vote base.
Actually Remain cannot win with LabourGE2015 voters alone, it needs a majority of them but it needs small c conservative GE2015 voters to get over 50% and win the referendum. Leave also need those voters in the same way to add to UKIP voters and get to over 50%. It is small c conservative voters who will decide the referendum and are the key swing voters, not Labour voters and not UKIP voters. Remain need to get aat least around 45% of small c conservatives to win, Leave equally need to win close to 60% of those same small c conservatives if they are to win
I didn't think he came across that badly in the Vice piece.
A little out of his depth and generally useless, but not a bad person.
He should use that as a campaign slogan! I think it's enough to win some votes with public trust in politicians being so low.
I have to say that I find it difficult to think of someone who hangs around with anti-semites and terrorists as "not a bad person".
You hang around with lawyers and criminals.
You have no idea who I hang around with. And as it happens I don't hang around with criminals. I represent people who are innocent until proven guilty. And most of my work these days is on the prosecution side of the fence, as it happens. I have been responsible for a number of criminals going to prison and not being given airtime in Parliament. Whereas Corbyn lobbied for a convicted anti-semite to be heard in Parliament.
Corbyn chose who he spent time with and which organisations he would chair and play a part in and at which events he spoke. And from the record it appears that he chose to spend time with and to chair organisations and play a part in organisations and speak at events where a lot of terrorists, terrorist sympathizers and anti-semites also played a part and played a role in the organisations and spoke. That says something about the choices he made and therefore the sort of person he is, IMO.
You may choose to think me a bad person because I am a lawyer investigating bad behaviour in the financial services sector. That's your prerogative. And frankly I couldn't care less. But I am not standing for public office. Corbyn is. And his choices say something about the sort of man he is and the sort of party he leads.
Can you be convicted of anti semitism?
Raed Salah was - to be specific, he was found by a court to have uttered the medieval blood libel against Jews.
Where was the court? Surely not in the UK. I think it's only a crime in certain EU countries and Israel. I cant find the conviction
There has been some surprise expressed on here and in the media at the different audience reactions to the PM and Gove in the Sky debates. In my view it is not at all surprising. The PM has been at the forefront of British politics for 11 years. He is now at the same stage as Blair was in 2005.Margaret Thatcher did 11 years as PM. Once you go over 10 years the public tire of you.They get sick of your face and your mannerisms. You become the repository of blame for every obsession and gripe in their lives. The PM recognised this when he told James Landale that he would not seek re-election. Gove to many is a new face.Not to everyone of course. So toxic was he to teachers and parents that he had to be moved. But to most he is the new kid on the block. His schmaltz and insincerity to the woman with the house in France ant to the single mother can be forgiven because he is a fresh face. You might get away once with saying" I don't want experts on my side" but I do not recommend it as a government policy.
Anecdote - student on work placement with us said he still needs to apply for a postal vote. Let's see if he actually gets round to it.
I'm saving up to buy my old Triumph Spitfire back from my ex. He demanded her as part of our divorce. I'll need to get extra creative about fuel since she runs on 4*...
You can buy an additive for that. Just put a squirt in every time you fill up.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
Miss Plato, I largely agree on values but there is an overlap (with the divide determined by how cynical one is about the EU) of those who liked the idea of remain with reform.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
Gove made an evocative visual point last night about the power of *the removals van* at Downing St every 5 or 10 yrs. We can't do that with any EU bod.
It happens to the Commission President if his party doesn't get enough votes. The British tried to stop this system taking root, but they failed.
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
Exactly so. It's not just that I disagree with the arguments being put forward by Leave. It's more fundamental than that. I can't even relate to any of the points that Leave raise because there's no overlap at all between the Leave world view and my world view. It makes it hard for me to debate with Leavers when nothing they say makes any sense to me. I fully appreciate that this works both ways and that the arguments being put forward by Remain don't make any sense to Leavers either.
It's a fascinating paradox - I'm friends with a shrink who talks all the time about values and red lines/how we define ourselves. When we're confronted with ones we don't get - it's blank incomprehension at best - more often dismissal or abuse.
It rules what outrages us and makes us feel good.
Leave and Remain have fundamentally different ones. If you haven't seen it - Haidt is pretty interesting on this dilemma.
Anecdote - student on work placement with us said he still needs to apply for a postal vote. Let's see if he actually gets round to it.
I'm saving up to buy my old Triumph Spitfire back from my ex. He demanded her as part of our divorce. I'll need to get extra creative about fuel since she runs on 4*...
Our family have a Rolls-Royce and when unleaded came out we got a letter from the company helping us to ensure it would run. OK.
Miss Plato, I largely agree on values but there is an overlap (with the divide determined by how cynical one is about the EU) of those who liked the idea of remain with reform.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
Gove made an evocative visual point last night about the power of *the removals van* at Downing St every 5 or 10 yrs. We can't do that with any EU bod.
At one time, the arrival of the removal van at the doors of 10 Downing Street, the day after a Government defeat at a General Election was always part and parcel of the custom and practice of booting out the previous Prime Minister and installing his successor. It always seemed unnecessarily hasty and therefore rather cruel to me. IIRC the removal van in question was always from John Lewis suggesting that either they had a long term contract to undertake this grisly task or else that they undertook it for free in order to gain the free attendant publicity. One always felt sympathy for the likes of Mary Wilson, Ted Heath (on his own) and Audrey Callaghan, etc. feverishly working away throughout the night to have everything packed up ready for their departure the following morning.
Miss Plato, I largely agree on values but there is an overlap (with the divide determined by how cynical one is about the EU) of those who liked the idea of remain with reform.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
Gove made an evocative visual point last night about the power of *the removals van* at Downing St every 5 or 10 yrs. We can't do that with any EU bod.
It happens to the Commission President if his party doesn't get enough votes. The British tried to stop this system taking root, but they failed.
Aha, so the answer is to give the Commission President a high-profile residence so the media can film him or her getting turfed out on a periodic basis.
Haha the comments about The Open from those who would probably keep the wives off the course are very amusing. Brits can be very funny sometimes.
It's the British Open to most of the world whatever the old codgers at the R&A like to think. Just be thankful that we can still refer to a language called 'English' not 'American.' It's quite gracious of them, all things considered.
Right that's enough from me. I don't usually cross the troll bridge.
There is the British Masters of course
And we have not the British Queen but THE Queen.
In the British media, to the Dutch, the Swedes, the Spanish, the Jordanians etc who have their own Queen she is the Queen of the United Kingdom or the Queen of England
To Americans and others globally who don't have a monarch there is no doubt who The Queen is.
Most Americans still refer to the 'Queen of England' not just 'The Queen'
You need the "of England" part to distinguish her from Oprah Winfrey.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
They won't suffer materially, you are right. But they will suffer an epic humiliation. It is this aspect which some find attractive.
If we do vote Leave I would be inclined to save the gloating till we discover whether the warnings from "the elite" had any validity or not.
We will await eagerly the zero-rating of VAT on home fuel bills.
Why stop there? We could abolish VAT and replace it with the Australian GST system, given that Leave prefer policies made in Canberra.
It would certainly make life a lot simpler for Business if we dud. Didnt we have something similar before it was replaced by VAT when we joined the then EEC?
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
The Establishment will always win, all we can do is give them a kick up the arse from time to time. Brexiteers are attempting this now.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
and you really believe that sort of thing?
Since some of my very well skilled brown friends and relatives have been denied and are currently appealing UK visas, yes!
Haha the comments about The Open from those who would probably keep the wives off the course are very amusing. Brits can be very funny sometimes.
It's the British Open to most of the world whatever the old codgers at the R&A like to think. Just be thankful that we can still refer to a language called 'English' not 'American.' It's quite gracious of them, all things considered.
Right that's enough from me. I don't usually cross the troll bridge.
There is the British Masters of course
And we have not the British Queen but THE Queen.
In the British media, to the Dutch, the Swedes, the Spanish, the Jordanians etc who have their own Queen she is the Queen of the United Kingdom or the Queen of England
To Americans and others globally who don't have a monarch there is no doubt who The Queen is.
Most Americans still refer to the 'Queen of England' not just 'The Queen'
You need the "of England" part to distinguish her from Oprah Winfrey.
She could still be confused with Elton John though.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
The number of non-EU immigrants is not going to rise as a result of Brexit.
If the points system is introduced people will be treated the same regardless of where they come from, it will be skills, abilities and contribution to the nation that will matter, the PROPORTION of immigrants from outside the EU will probably go up dramatically.
And the skill and education levels of immigrants will too.
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Cameron won't meet him.
Probably the only reason Trump is supporting BrExit is because Cameron went around calling him a dangerous idiot to anyone listening, but then Dave never really did get this international politics idea.... even if its a Remain might be best to resign early if Trump wins
Cameron is not alone in believing Trump is a dangerous idiot, I would think 80% of world politicians share that view.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
They won't suffer materially, you are right. But they will suffer an epic humiliation. It is this aspect which some find attractive.
We will await eagerly the zero-rating of VAT on home fuel bills.
Why stop there? We could abolish VAT and replace it with the Australian GST system, given that Leave prefer policies made in Canberra.
Is not the point that if Parliament is again sovereign it can do what it likes, but we can vote the buggers out if they do what we don't like?
Parliament never stopped being sovereign. The buggers we've elected over the years have preferred to stay in the EU, and we kept on electing them.
Even IDS said in 2003 that it was a lie to suggest he wanted to leave the EU because he was afraid of the electoral consequences.
Give me a break. The electoral choice was the Pro-EU Tory Party, the Pro-EU Labour Party or the Pro-EU LibDems, you could recently vote for the kippers in some seats, but the chance of them winning that seat was around zero, and you would have to be happy with Farage as PM.
This referendum has totally changed the game. The entitled well off from both Labour/Tories against those who aren't and feel threatened/alienated and forgotten.
Gove and Boris Johnson hardly epitomise the alienated and forgotten. They're just manipulating them as a tool to win their political turf war.
Quite right. The Tory euro-sceptic hard-right never gave a fig about the poor and the needy and still doesn't. They've just identified, rightly, a social subset imbued with frustration and resentment. Their aim is to channel that frustration towards a proxy target - namely Britain's EU membership. Once that goal is achieved, the Tory hard-right will leave them to their poverty and their crime estates and will never think about them again.
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Cameron won't meet him.
Probably the only reason Trump is supporting BrExit is because Cameron went around calling him a dangerous idiot to anyone listening, but then Dave never really did get this international politics idea.... even if its a Remain might be best to resign early if Trump wins
Cameron is not alone in believing Trump is a dangerous idiot, I would think 80% of world politicians share that view.
Another anti-Trump Remainer. Ahem
Boris Johnson: 'The only reason I wouldn't visit some parts of New York is the real risk of meeting Donald Trump'
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense. It's just silly and childish.
Thank you for the complement regarding brightness, and you are correct that I am being self-indulgent (nobody's paying me to post here), but my point about LEAVE's current campaign being overwhelmingly antiimmigration is surely correct.
Haha the comments about The Open from those who would probably keep the wives off the course are very amusing. Brits can be very funny sometimes.
It's the British Open to most of the world whatever the old codgers at the R&A like to think. Just be thankful that we can still refer to a language called 'English' not 'American.' It's quite gracious of them, all things considered.
Right that's enough from me. I don't usually cross the troll bridge.
There is the British Masters of course
And we have not the British Queen but THE Queen.
In the British media, to the Dutch, the Swedes, the Spanish, the Jordanians etc who have their own Queen she is the Queen of the United Kingdom or the Queen of England
To Americans and others globally who don't have a monarch there is no doubt who The Queen is.
Most Americans still refer to the 'Queen of England' not just 'The Queen'
You need the "of England" part to distinguish her from Oprah Winfrey.
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Cameron won't meet him.
Probably the only reason Trump is supporting BrExit is because Cameron went around calling him a dangerous idiot to anyone listening, but then Dave never really did get this international politics idea.... even if its a Remain might be best to resign early if Trump wins
Cameron is not alone in believing Trump is a dangerous idiot, I would think 80% of world politicians share that view.
Most of them have the sense to keep their big mouths shut since its looking increasingly probable that he will win, that is the job for the PM's outriders and "sources close to the PM" so that he can deny it with a straight face if it becomes politically awkward.... and its now got a very good chance of becoming politically awkward!
Miss Plato, I largely agree on values but there is an overlap (with the divide determined by how cynical one is about the EU) of those who liked the idea of remain with reform.
I like that idea, but find it incredible. The EU's not capable of changing that way, and I'd rather be governed by those who are accountable than those who are not.
I think one of the reasons Cameron has got himself in such a terrible position within his party is that too many people read into 'reform' whatever they wanted, however unrealistic it was. If anyone thought we could reconstitute the EU from the ground up into something completely different they were deluded, and as people now understand, that was never what Cameron and the majority of the political establishment in the UK wanted.
Of course not. We all know that. All they ever wanted was enough of a change to be able to sell it to the public as reform so they could then win the referendum and have the EU carry on as before on its federalist trajectory.
Richard surely if remain win they will have to be honest about the federalist trajectory ? As the referendum will have highlighted the issues , to a wider more informed public . Maybe that is to an optimistic outcome.
But it's not just this issue where the political class and the media have a weird aversion to telling it like it is. That tendency covers a whole range of subjects.
We collectively need to be more grown up and refuse to allow a situation to continue where a politician being honest is regarded as a gaffe.
I think that is very true.
One of the advantages of being out of the EU is that when a daft rule comes in (usually inspired by an EU directive which is then copper bottomed, then gold plated and is then put in a large cast iron box by way of guarantee so that Whitehall can feel it's doing its bit) they can't actually blame it on anyone else.
One of the sad things about modern politics is that if a government doesn't look busy people assume that's a bad thing. It isn't. Leaving things alone while we see what the last set of reforms did is a good idea. Constant fiddling so you can demand you're doing something is not helpful.
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Cameron won't meet him.
Probably the only reason Trump is supporting BrExit is because Cameron went around calling him a dangerous idiot to anyone listening, but then Dave never really did get this international politics idea.... even if its a Remain might be best to resign early if Trump wins
Cameron is not alone in believing Trump is a dangerous idiot, I would think 80% of world politicians share that view.
Yet one more reason for believing that Cameron will be well and truly gone (with or without the help of the John Lewis removals van) well before the Donald's inauguration next January.
We will await eagerly the zero-rating of VAT on home fuel bills.
Why stop there? We could abolish VAT and replace it with the Australian GST system, given that Leave prefer policies made in Canberra.
Is not the point that if Parliament is again sovereign it can do what it likes, but we can vote the buggers out if they do what we don't like?
Parliament never stopped being sovereign. The buggers we've elected over the years have preferred to stay in the EU, and we kept on electing them.
Even IDS said in 2003 that it was a lie to suggest he wanted to leave the EU because he was afraid of the electoral consequences.
Give me a break. The electoral choice was the Pro-EU Tory Party, the Pro-EU Labour Party or the Pro-EU LibDems, you could recently vote for the kippers in some seats, but the chance of them winning that seat was around zero, and you would have to be happy with Farage as PM.
That's not quite true. In 1983 Labour stood on a manifesto of leaving the EU and got slaughtered. In 2001 William Hague said nothing but 'Save the Pound' and got crushed.
How do you refute the point about IDS? One of the most rabidly anti-EU politicians became leader of one of the major parties, but still didn't have the guts to be open about it. He knew it was electorally toxic.
Anecdote - student on work placement with us said he still needs to apply for a postal vote. Let's see if he actually gets round to it.
I'm saving up to buy my old Triumph Spitfire back from my ex. He demanded her as part of our divorce. I'll need to get extra creative about fuel since she runs on 4*...
Our family have a Rolls-Royce and when unleaded came out we got a letter from the company helping us to ensure it would run. OK.
Not bad for a 1932 model.
If it had been a 1922 model it would have been fine. Pre leaded petrol.
That's the problem with these new fangled ideas. They don't last....
If we do vote Leave I would be inclined to save the gloating till we discover whether the warnings from "the elite" had any validity or not.
Why? The so called elite were giving identical warnings to if we didn't join the Euro and they were wrong, while the warnings from the likes of Hague about the Euro were dismissed as rabid nonsense. Turns out the sceptics were right then and the so called elite were wrong.
Before I think if we will face disaster outside the EU I'd like you to name a nation outside the EU comparable to us that is a disaster.
This referendum has totally changed the game. The entitled well off from both Labour/Tories against those who aren't and feel threatened/alienated and forgotten.
Gove and Boris Johnson hardly epitomise the alienated and forgotten. They're just manipulating them as a tool to win their political turf war.
Quite right. The Tory euro-sceptic hard-right never gave a fig about the poor and the needy and still doesn't. They've just identified, rightly, a social subset imbued with frustration and resentment. Their aim is to channel that frustration towards a proxy target - namely Britain's EU membership. Once that goal is achieved, the Tory hard-right will leave them to their poverty and their crime estates and will never think about them again.
Hard right my arse, you appear to be glossing over the 30-50% of Labour voters that will be supporting Leave, including a fair chunk of their minorities vote.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
There are one or two exceptions to those posters of course but to be fair the other anecdotes are just glib and crass and boring.
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
They won't suffer materially, you are right. But they will suffer an epic humiliation. It is this aspect which some find attractive.
If we do vote Leave I would be inclined to save the gloating till we discover whether the warnings from "the elite" had any validity or not.
Indeed. See Scotland. It turns out that what the evil elite said about the dangers of independence was right.
We will await eagerly the zero-rating of VAT on home fuel bills.
Why stop there? We could abolish VAT and replace it with the Australian GST system, given that Leave prefer policies made in Canberra.
Is not the point that if Parliament is again sovereign it can do what it likes, but we can vote the buggers out if they do what we don't like?
Parliament never stopped being sovereign. The buggers we've elected over the years have preferred to stay in the EU, and we kept on electing them.
Even IDS said in 2003 that it was a lie to suggest he wanted to leave the EU because he was afraid of the electoral consequences.
Give me a break. The electoral choice was the Pro-EU Tory Party, the Pro-EU Labour Party or the Pro-EU LibDems, you could recently vote for the kippers in some seats, but the chance of them winning that seat was around zero, and you would have to be happy with Farage as PM.
It's a shame you aren't in this country to found an anti-EU party. Oh wait, there is one already. And look, as a result of its efforts, we are all voting on continued membership of the EU.
Seems democracy is working perfectly well over here.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
That isn't an argument that would hold much water.
Seriously, Why? Explain to me the rationale for anyone with racist views would vote Remain? Better still point me to someone with racist views that is advocating a Remain vote.
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Cameron won't meet him.
Probably the only reason Trump is supporting BrExit is because Cameron went around calling him a dangerous idiot to anyone listening, but then Dave never really did get this international politics idea.... even if its a Remain might be best to resign early if Trump wins
Cameron is not alone in believing Trump is a dangerous idiot, I would think 80% of world politicians share that view.
Another anti-Trump Remainer. Ahem
Boris Johnson: 'The only reason I wouldn't visit some parts of New York is the real risk of meeting Donald Trump'
Anecdote - student on work placement with us said he still needs to apply for a postal vote. Let's see if he actually gets round to it.
I'm saving up to buy my old Triumph Spitfire back from my ex. He demanded her as part of our divorce. I'll need to get extra creative about fuel since she runs on 4*...
Our family have a Rolls-Royce and when unleaded came out we got a letter from the company helping us to ensure it would run. OK.
Not bad for a 1932 model.
If it had been a 1922 model it would have been fine. Pre leaded petrol.
That's the problem with these new fangled ideas. They don't last....
Another post that shows we need the like button back.
This referendum has totally changed the game. The entitled well off from both Labour/Tories against those who aren't and feel threatened/alienated and forgotten.
Gove and Boris Johnson hardly epitomise the alienated and forgotten. They're just manipulating them as a tool to win their political turf war.
Quite right. The Tory euro-sceptic hard-right never gave a fig about the poor and the needy and still doesn't. They've just identified, rightly, a social subset imbued with frustration and resentment. Their aim is to channel that frustration towards a proxy target - namely Britain's EU membership. Once that goal is achieved, the Tory hard-right will leave them to their poverty and their crime estates and will never think about them again.
We will await eagerly the zero-rating of VAT on home fuel bills.
Why stop there? We could abolish VAT and replace it with the Australian GST system, given that Leave prefer policies made in Canberra.
Is not the point that if Parliament is again sovereign it can do what it likes, but we can vote the buggers out if they do what we don't like?
Parliament never stopped being sovereign. The buggers we've elected over the years have preferred to stay in the EU, and we kept on electing them.
Even IDS said in 2003 that it was a lie to suggest he wanted to leave the EU because he was afraid of the electoral consequences.
Give me a break. The electoral choice was the Pro-EU Tory Party, the Pro-EU Labour Party or the Pro-EU LibDems, you could recently vote for the kippers in some seats, but the chance of them winning that seat was around zero, and you would have to be happy with Farage as PM.
That's not quite true. In 1983 Labour stood on a manifesto of leaving the EU and got slaughtered. In 2001 William Hague said nothing but 'Save the Pound' and got crushed.
How do you refute the point about IDS? One of the most rabidly anti-EU politicians became leader of one of the major parties, but still didn't have the guts to be open about it. He knew it was electorally toxic.
Because it is only in the last decade that it has become clear from Greece to Italy to Spain and more that the EU is failing all around us. While the UK which was mean to be a failure if we didn't join the Euro has instead boomed past the failing Euro projects.
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Cameron won't meet him.
He will have to. Just as he had to stand next to Sadiq. I think Charles is onto something.
Several of us did say that appearing with Saqid and praising him was a total distraction, and lo it came to pass when brought up on Thursday on Sky.
You can't claim someone is an extremist cuddler, then two weeks later hug them as a great mate fellow traveller. Just beyond stupid.
No one's said it was a melding of Labour/Tory for Remain - it's been all about the disingenuous faux camaraderie.
Tell you what can we stop all the "anecdotes" on the EU referendum.
"I've been on this forum and they are all for remain" and "I've not bumped into anyone down the club that isn't for leaving" etc etc etc... Ad infinitum.
It's all bollocks because the posters doing it are entrenched in their positions of leave and remain so let's just presume that leave / remain posters always bump into someone or participate in a group that wholly and entirely validates the vote they are placing in the ballot box.
....
To be honest Mr Moses, the anecdotes are more interesting that the poll ramblings...
I agree - though the reports from some are less credible than others.
Watching the paper review on Sky earlier, a chappy who seemed a soft Remainer said he's spent the week in the NE and many he'd talked to were for Leave - inc lots of old friends, he seemed genuinely surprised and a bit thrown.
Ian Dunt whom I expected to be for Remain, left me with the impression he was a soft Leave. I was astonished to hear Lionel Barber of FT fame describe himself a bit self-consciously as Remainish.
Who knows what the Hell is going on. I don't.
Actually you do know what's going on but you're so delighted you're struggling to believe it.
Us, we, the people of the UK are very close to giving an enormous middle finger to the Establishment. Bring it on and enjoy it, this is just the start.
Do you actually believe this "us, we, the people of the UK" stuff? The country is at worst evenly split when you start talking about only those people that share your opinion as being "the people" then you just sound unhinged to be honest.
I just can't get my head round the notion that people genuinely believe that the Establishment is going to suffer in some way if we vote for Brexit. It really won't.
They won't suffer materially, you are right. But they will suffer an epic humiliation. It is this aspect which some find attractive.
If we do vote Leave I would be inclined to save the gloating till we discover whether the warnings from "the elite" had any validity or not.
Indeed. See Scotland. It turns out that what the evil elite said about the dangers of independence was right.
The only problem is that we can't be sure that any problems have derived from leaving the EU - unless we have half the UK remain and half leave (which seems sensible given the polling) - and see what happens.
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Cameron won't meet him.
Of course Cameron won't meet Trump. What a stupid idea. Even if they only give a nod to diplomatic niceties, which they may not, Cameron's lot only have to say, 'Sorry PMs frightfully busy with other engagements today. Sorry, but was all arranged a long time ago. Better luck next time, eh?' End of story.
We will await eagerly the zero-rating of VAT on home fuel bills.
Why stop there? We could abolish VAT and replace it with the Australian GST system, given that Leave prefer policies made in Canberra.
Is not the point that if Parliament is again sovereign it can do what it likes, but we can vote the buggers out if they do what we don't like?
Parliament never stopped being sovereign. The buggers we've elected over the years have preferred to stay in the EU, and we kept on electing them.
Even IDS said in 2003 that it was a lie to suggest he wanted to leave the EU because he was afraid of the electoral consequences.
Give me a break. The electoral choice was the Pro-EU Tory Party, the Pro-EU Labour Party or the Pro-EU LibDems, you could recently vote for the kippers in some seats, but the chance of them winning that seat was around zero, and you would have to be happy with Farage as PM.
That's not quite true. In 1983 Labour stood on a manifesto of leaving the EU and got slaughtered. In 2001 William Hague said nothing but 'Save the Pound' and got crushed.
How do you refute the point about IDS? One of the most rabidly anti-EU politicians became leader of one of the major parties, but still didn't have the guts to be open about it. He knew it was electorally toxic.
Electorally toxic a decade and a half ago, time moves on.
You cite three elections in which singularly uncharismatic candidates with daft policies (which 30 years ago may well have included leaving the EU) lost elections, hardly a shocker. Thirty years ago more than three quarters of the population didn't want immigration reduced and a half want it reduced by a lot, times move on.
We will await eagerly the zero-rating of VAT on home fuel bills.
Why stop there? We could abolish VAT and replace it with the Australian GST system, given that Leave prefer policies made in Canberra.
Is not the point that if Parliament is again sovereign it can do what it likes, but we can vote the buggers out if they do what we don't like?
Parliament never stopped being sovereign. The buggers we've elected over the years have preferred to stay in the EU, and we kept on electing them.
Even IDS said in 2003 that it was a lie to suggest he wanted to leave the EU because he was afraid of the electoral consequences.
Give me a break. The electoral choice was the Pro-EU Tory Party, the Pro-EU Labour Party or the Pro-EU LibDems, you could recently vote for the kippers in some seats, but the chance of them winning that seat was around zero, and you would have to be happy with Farage as PM.
It's a shame you aren't in this country to found an anti-EU party. Oh wait, there is one already. And look, as a result of its efforts, we are all voting on continued membership of the EU.
Seems democracy is working perfectly well over here.
You appear to be preempting the referendum just a little there. Are you aiming to the the IOS of the Eu Ref
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
The number of non-EU immigrants is not going to rise as a result of Brexit.
If the points system is introduced people will be treated the same regardless of where they come from, it will be skills, abilities and contribution to the nation that will matter, the PROPORTION of immigrants from outside the EU will probably go up dramatically.
And the skill and education levels of immigrants will too.
To meet the Cameron pledge of immigration being reduced to tens of thousands , even if all immigration from the EU ceased , immigration from the rest of the world would have to be cut by around half from the 188,000 last year . As non EU nationals in employment in the UK increased by only 5,000 in 2015 a substantial % of non EU migrants clearly do not come here for work related reasons .
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Cameron won't meet him.
Probably the only reason Trump is supporting BrExit is because Cameron went around calling him a dangerous idiot to anyone listening, but then Dave never really did get this international politics idea.... even if its a Remain might be best to resign early if Trump wins
Cameron is not alone in believing Trump is a dangerous idiot, I would think 80% of world politicians share that view.
Another anti-Trump Remainer. Ahem
Boris Johnson: 'The only reason I wouldn't visit some parts of New York is the real risk of meeting Donald Trump'
We will await eagerly the zero-rating of VAT on home fuel bills.
Why stop there? We could abolish VAT and replace it with the Australian GST system, given that Leave prefer policies made in Canberra.
Is not the point that if Parliament is again sovereign it can do what it likes, but we can vote the buggers out if they do what we don't like?
Parliament never stopped being sovereign. The buggers we've elected over the years have preferred to stay in the EU, and we kept on electing them.
Even IDS said in 2003 that it was a lie to suggest he wanted to leave the EU because he was afraid of the electoral consequences.
Give me a break. The electoral choice was the Pro-EU Tory Party, the Pro-EU Labour Party or the Pro-EU LibDems, you could recently vote for the kippers in some seats, but the chance of them winning that seat was around zero, and you would have to be happy with Farage as PM.
That's not quite true. In 1983 Labour stood on a manifesto of leaving the EU and got slaughtered. In 2001 William Hague said nothing but 'Save the Pound' and got crushed.
How do you refute the point about IDS? One of the most rabidly anti-EU politicians became leader of one of the major parties, but still didn't have the guts to be open about it. He knew it was electorally toxic.
Mr. Glenn, I rather think that Labour's stance on the EEC (it wasn't the Eu then, remember) had nothing to do with it losing the 1983 election. There were rather more important issues on the voter's minds at that time.
As was pointed out upthread this month is the first time that all voters have the chance to vote on the issue of membership of the EU.
Because it is only in the last decade that it has become clear from Greece to Italy to Spain and more that the EU is failing all around us. While the UK which was mean to be a failure if we didn't join the Euro has instead boomed past the failing Euro projects.
The evidence is that the EU is not working.
Then it's our duty as one of the pillars of European civilisation, history and power, to play our part in making it work better. We've never been a country of shirkers, saying 'Not my problem guv' and cutting ourselves off from our neighbours.
If you think the UK is booming, why change our current position in the EU but outside the Eurozone?
We will await eagerly the zero-rating of VAT on home fuel bills.
Why stop there? We could abolish VAT and replace it with the Australian GST system, given that Leave prefer policies made in Canberra.
Is not the point that if Parliament is again sovereign it can do what it likes, but we can vote the buggers out if they do what we don't like?
Parliament never stopped being sovereign. The buggers we've elected over the years have preferred to stay in the EU, and we kept on electing them.
Even IDS said in 2003 that it was a lie to suggest he wanted to leave the EU because he was afraid of the electoral consequences.
Give me a break. The electoral choice was the Pro-EU Tory Party, the Pro-EU Labour Party or the Pro-EU LibDems, you could recently vote for the kippers in some seats, but the chance of them winning that seat was around zero, and you would have to be happy with Farage as PM.
It's a shame you aren't in this country to found an anti-EU party. Oh wait, there is one already. And look, as a result of its efforts, we are all voting on continued membership of the EU.
Seems democracy is working perfectly well over here.
You appear to be preempting the referendum just a little there. Are you aiming to the the IOS of the Eu Ref
LOL.
We have a referendum, thanks to Nigel. It's difficult to maintain we are under the oppressive EU yoke when we have every opportunity now to vote the UK out of the EU.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
That isn't an argument that would hold much water.
Seriously, Why? Explain to me the rationale for anyone with racist views would vote Remain? Better still point me to someone with racist views that is advocating a Remain vote.
Jeremy Corbyn, Seumus Milne, John McDonnell, Gerry Adams, Martin McGuiness.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
Oh dear me. What silly nonsense. So Remainers who favour Caucasian immigration aren't?
I think the Leavers argument is a whole lot stronger. And trying to label either as waycist is childish and lacking in nuance. Leavers don't call Remainers waycists unless they're accused of it themselves.
Gove's performance last night prompted one London punter to open account with Hills & bet £10,000 at 1/3 on a Remain victory
Those Bullingdon Boys can afford to lose it....
Yup. I'm sure former Buller boy, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson formerly of Eton, Oxford, Editor of the Spectator, and Mayor of London can afford it.
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Cameron won't meet him.
Probably the only reason Trump is supporting BrExit is because Cameron went around calling him a dangerous idiot to anyone listening, but then Dave never really did get this international politics idea.... even if its a Remain might be best to resign early if Trump wins
Cameron is not alone in believing Trump is a dangerous idiot, I would think 80% of world politicians share that view.
Another anti-Trump Remainer. Ahem
Boris Johnson: 'The only reason I wouldn't visit some parts of New York is the real risk of meeting Donald Trump'
That's good. So the Leavers were sniggering over the theoretical embarrassment Cameron would get if forced to meet Trump, only to find that their leader is one of his chief sponsors. It's all rather amusing.
Because it is only in the last decade that it has become clear from Greece to Italy to Spain and more that the EU is failing all around us. While the UK which was mean to be a failure if we didn't join the Euro has instead boomed past the failing Euro projects.
The evidence is that the EU is not working.
Then it's our duty as one of the pillars of European civilisation, history and power, to play our part in making it work better. We've never been a country of shirkers, saying 'Not my problem guv' and cutting ourselves off from our neighbours.
Because it is only in the last decade that it has become clear from Greece to Italy to Spain and more that the EU is failing all around us. While the UK which was mean to be a failure if we didn't join the Euro has instead boomed past the failing Euro projects.
The evidence is that the EU is not working.
Then it's our duty as one of the pillars of European civilisation, history and power, to play our part in making it work better. We've never been a country of shirkers, saying 'Not my problem guv' and cutting ourselves off from our neighbours.
No its our duty to forge a better alternative.
If we could reform the EU then great. If Cameron meaningfully had done so then great. But the EU has not been meaningfully reformed even when this referendum was at the end of the process. So if not now, then realistically when?
Outside the EU just like outside the Euro we can demonstrate the fear mongers to be wrong and forge a better alternative path. Give hope to those afraid themselves to cut loose and try something different.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
The number of non-EU immigrants is not going to rise as a result of Brexit.
If the points system is introduced people will be treated the same regardless of where they come from, it will be skills, abilities and contribution to the nation that will matter, the PROPORTION of immigrants from outside the EU will probably go up dramatically.
And the skill and education levels of immigrants will too.
To meet the Cameron pledge of immigration being reduced to tens of thousands , even if all immigration from the EU ceased , immigration from the rest of the world would have to be cut by around half from the 188,000 last year . As non EU nationals in employment in the UK increased by only 5,000 in 2015 a substantial % of non EU migrants clearly do not come here for work related reasons .
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is. Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on ...
The other point is that REMAIN believe a strategy of 19 weeks on the economy (stupid) will engage voters and think that 4 weeks on immigration is going to switch off voters.
Alistair Campbell on Newsnight said that REMAIN should stick to one strategy to win. I guess he must by now have learned from the elvis impersonator stunt at GE2010?
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. ...
I'd happily lose economicallys,.....
Telling me that my mobile roaming bill might be a bit higher has no effect on me, nor that a footballer would need a visa or whatever - it's patronising noise.
Could it be that the key problem for REMAIN's messages is that its messages are mainly aimed at small c conservative GE2015 voters. But Labour GE2015 voters are the biggest block of REMAIN's potential vote base.
Actually Remain cannot win with LabourGE2015 voters alone, it needs a majority of them but it needs small c conservative GE2015 voters to get over 50% and win the referendum. Leave also need those voters in the same way to add to UKIP voters and get to over 50%. It is small c conservative voters who will decide the referendum and are the key swing voters, not Labour voters and not UKIP voters. Remain need to get aat least around 45% of small c conservatives to win, Leave equally need to win close to 60% of those same small c conservatives if they are to win
The ICM Phone poll of 27th-29th May2016 had a 2% lead for LEAVE with a vote split for Cons of 45% LEAVE and 43% REMAIN (without removing the DK). Key is that UKIP provide a large base with 15%+ of all voters to build LEAVE from. To get LEAVE to 51% the three biggest components I have (expressed as % of all voters) are:- Con 19.2%, Labour 5.2%, UKIP 21.2% Turnout for UKIP topping 75% with overall turnout 60.0%.
I watched the Sky News debate , thought Michael Gove was good , even with a difficult hand regarding the economy. If leave win , I hope he changes his mind regarding becoming PM. As he seems a man of principle , who hopefully will negotiate what is required for the UK.
Have to agree with you. I thought he was far too swottish before and he proved me wrong.
I have to reassess him. If he doesn't want to be PM, he certainly proven himself for another top job. CoE or FSec
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
The number of non-EU immigrants is not going to rise as a result of Brexit.
If the points system is introduced people will be treated the same regardless of where they come from, it will be skills, abilities and contribution to the nation that will matter, the PROPORTION of immigrants from outside the EU will probably go up dramatically.
And the skill and education levels of immigrants will too.
To meet the Cameron pledge of immigration being reduced to tens of thousands , even if all immigration from the EU ceased , immigration from the rest of the world would have to be cut by around half from the 188,000 last year . As non EU nationals in employment in the UK increased by only 5,000 in 2015 a substantial % of non EU migrants clearly do not come here for work related reasons .
We will await eagerly the zero-rating of VAT on home fuel bills.
Why stop there? We could abolish VAT and replace it with the Australian GST system, given that Leave prefer policies made in Canberra.
Is not the point that if Parliament is again sovereign it can do what it likes, but we can vote the buggers out if they do what we don't like?
Parliament never stopped being sovereign. The buggers we've elected over the years have preferred to stay in the EU, and we kept on electing them.
Even IDS said in 2003 that it was a lie to suggest he wanted to leave the EU because he was afraid of the electoral consequences.
Give me a break. The electoral choice was the Pro-EU Tory Party, the Pro-EU Labour Party or the Pro-EU LibDems, you could recently vote for the kippers in some seats, but the chance of them winning that seat was around zero, and you would have to be happy with Farage as PM.
That's not quite true. In 1983 Labour stood on a manifesto of leaving the EU and got slaughtered. In 2001 William Hague said nothing but 'Save the Pound' and got crushed.
How do you refute the point about IDS? One of the most rabidly anti-EU politicians became leader of one of the major parties, but still didn't have the guts to be open about it. He knew it was electorally toxic.
Because it is only in the last decade that it has become clear from Greece to Italy to Spain and more that the EU is failing all around us. While the UK which was mean to be a failure if we didn't join the Euro has instead boomed past the failing Euro projects.
The evidence is that the EU is not working.
In 2001 the Tories were well behind for months before the campaign started. In November- December 2000 it was 34 - 48 usually - and we were living in the fools paradise of Gordon Brown's spend now pay later economics.
This referendum has totally changed the game. The entitled well off from both Labour/Tories against those who aren't and feel threatened/alienated and forgotten.
Gove and Boris Johnson hardly epitomise the alienated and forgotten. They're just manipulating them as a tool to win their political turf war.
Quite right. The Tory euro-sceptic hard-right never gave a fig about the poor and the needy and still doesn't. They've just identified, rightly, a social subset imbued with frustration and resentment. Their aim is to channel that frustration towards a proxy target - namely Britain's EU membership. Once that goal is achieved, the Tory hard-right will leave them to their poverty and their crime estates and will never think about them again.
Hard right my arse, you appear to be glossing over the 30-50% of Labour voters that will be supporting Leave, including a fair chunk of their minorities vote.
I never said the hard-right was unsuccessful in corralling those whom they despise. Quite the opposite.
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Cameron won't meet him.
Probably the only reason Trump is supporting BrExit is because Cameron went around calling him a dangerous idiot to anyone listening, but then Dave never really did get this international politics idea.... even if its a Remain might be best to resign early if Trump wins
Cameron is not alone in believing Trump is a dangerous idiot, I would think 80% of world politicians share that view.
Yet one more reason for believing that Cameron will be well and truly gone (with or without the help of the John Lewis removals van) well before the Donald's inauguration next January.
There's a lot of counting chickens on here at the moment both by Leavers and Trump for POTUS rampers. I am quietly confident neither will happen but both will be closer than many originally thought.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
The number of non-EU immigrants is not going to rise as a result of Brexit.
If the points system is introduced people will be treated the same regardless of where they come from, it will be skills, abilities and contribution to the nation that will matter, the PROPORTION of immigrants from outside the EU will probably go up dramatically.
And the skill and education levels of immigrants will too.
To meet the Cameron pledge of immigration being reduced to tens of thousands , even if all immigration from the EU ceased , immigration from the rest of the world would have to be cut by around half from the 188,000 last year . As non EU nationals in employment in the UK increased by only 5,000 in 2015 a substantial % of non EU migrants clearly do not come here for work related reasons .
o_O How does that work ?
Worrying.
The other way of meeting the pledge is of course, outside the EU, to negotiate freer movement with prosperous English-speaking countries of the type Britons might want to go to, as well as keeping as much as possible with Western Europe. You can meet a net pledge by reducing in or by increasing out.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
The number of non-EU immigrants is not going to rise as a result of Brexit.
If the points system is introduced people will be treated the same regardless of where they come from, it will be skills, abilities and contribution to the nation that will matter, the PROPORTION of immigrants from outside the EU will probably go up dramatically.
And the skill and education levels of immigrants will too.
To meet the Cameron pledge of immigration being reduced to tens of thousands , even if all immigration from the EU ceased , immigration from the rest of the world would have to be cut by around half from the 188,000 last year . As non EU nationals in employment in the UK increased by only 5,000 in 2015 a substantial % of non EU migrants clearly do not come here for work related reasons .
o_O How does that work ?
Worrying.
A lot come here to study not work.
The figures exclude short term migration for study purposes .
"IN supporting Cabinet Ministers admit that Leave have had a good week. But they argue that they won’t be able to ride the immigration issue to victory on June 23rd. One argues that you can’t focus on immigration week after week, or ‘By week four, you end up sounding like Nigel Farage’.
I think Remain are missing the point - deliberately. And the more Remainers say it's the wrong thing to focus on, the more I'm inclined to think it actually is. Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out, it's about pressure on house prices, rents, maternity services, school places, our culture, jobs and prospects and on and on and on. I've no problem whatsoever with importing smart articulate people from anywhere on the globe if that helps our nation to succeed. I object strongly to opportunist whatevers who don't raise the bar.
The other point is that REMAIN believe a strategy of 19 weeks on the economy (stupid) will engage voters and think that 4 weeks on immigration is going to switch off voters.
Alistair Campbell on Newsnight said that REMAIN should stick to one strategy to win. I guess he must by now have learned from the elvis impersonator stunt at GE2010?
As we've seen on here, Remain and Leave have two entirely different value sets. They're talking different languages and neither gets the other.
I'd happily lose economically, if we had control over our borders, law and national identity. I believe very strongly that the EU is a ball and chain on our prospects. I've no doubts that we'll succeed without them - we did so for 1000yrs.
Gove's performance last night prompted one London punter to open account with Hills & bet £10,000 at 1/3 on a Remain victory
Those Bullingdon Boys can afford to lose it....
Yup. I'm sure former Buller boy, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson formerly of Eton, Oxford, Editor of the Spectator, and Mayor of London can afford it.
I am sure Boris's wealth is small change compared to David William Donald Cameron, son of the wealth stockbroker and grandson of Alexander Geddes wealthy businessman and owner of Blairmore House, married to Samantha Gwendoline Sheffield stepdaughter of William Waldorf Astor III, 4th Viscount Astor who grew up in a 350 acre stately home.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
I had not thought of it in that way, but you are true. As in the suggestions that "These are our european brothers and sisters our kith and kin, we are european".
I watched the lady in blue on last night's debate really closely. She's of Asian descent and tried to argue Leave were racist using coded language. Gove said those from India, Pakistan or Bengal would be just as eligible as everyone else to apply to live here caused her face to change - it became an uncomfortable mask.
She didn't want to believe it, Brexiteers are all horrible blah blah. Her viewpoint wasn't changed, but the point was made.
I think it's quite smart by Leave assuming Trump is disciplined and on message (and I think he can be).
He turns up in London. Cameron kind of has to meet him, or look like a jerk. (They could met in Scotland as well). So Cameron is tied down for half a day in a strongly Remain area, but one where he doesn't appeal to the voters.
The TV pictures the night before the vote are of Cameron and Trump, which is unlikely to make left wing Remain voters inclined to to out and vote got that nice Mr Cameron (unless he is rude about Trump to his face which diplomacy makes difficult).
All Trump has to do is day nothing controversial (and nothing about the vote). Something like "I'm not going to interfere, it's up to the Brits. But I will say that Britain is a great nation with a proud history. I and millions of my fellow Americans value the close friendship between our two countries and that isn't going to change regardless of what you decide tomorrow"
You could potentially massively reassure nervous voters on the trade issue at a point when it is too late for Remain to do anything about it.
Just needs Trump to be disciplined...
Cameron won't meet him.
Probably the only reason Trump is supporting BrExit is because Cameron went around calling him a dangerous idiot to anyone listening, but then Dave never really did get this international politics idea.... even if its a Remain might be best to resign early if Trump wins
Cameron is not alone in believing Trump is a dangerous idiot, I would think 80% of world politicians share that view.
Another anti-Trump Remainer. Ahem
Boris Johnson: 'The only reason I wouldn't visit some parts of New York is the real risk of meeting Donald Trump'
That's good. So the Leavers were sniggering over the theoretical embarrassment Cameron would get if forced to meet Trump, only to find that their leader is one of his chief sponsors. It's all rather amusing.
For Farage though it is not an embarrassment, UKIP voters are the only UK voters polled who like Trump
Because it is only in the last decade that it has become clear from Greece to Italy to Spain and more that the EU is failing all around us. While the UK which was mean to be a failure if we didn't join the Euro has instead boomed past the failing Euro projects.
The evidence is that the EU is not working.
Then it's our duty as one of the pillars of European civilisation, history and power, to play our part in making it work better. We've never been a country of shirkers, saying 'Not my problem guv' and cutting ourselves off from our neighbours.
No its our duty to forge a better alternative.
If we could reform the EU then great. If Cameron meaningfully had done so then great. But the EU has not been meaningfully reformed even when this referendum was at the end of the process. So if not now, then realistically when?
Outside the EU just like outside the Euro we can demonstrate the fear mongers to be wrong and forge a better alternative path. Give hope to those afraid themselves to cut loose and try something different.
I believe it's a major error of judgement to regard the EU as something transitory like the USSR that will eventually disintegrate in calamitous failure. If people are voting Leave on that basis they are potentially putting Britain straight back on the path of relative decline which were only able to stop after we joined the Community.
Immigration isn't as Remainers like to portray it Get The Darkies Out....
When you see constant articles in the Mail and Sun which are basically "LOOK! MIGRANTS! MIGRANTS! EW!", and compare that to the "open, outward looking" LEAVE campaign that was originally promised, it's not difficult to feel disappointed and repelled. The only reason why LEAVE'S current campaign isn't "get the darkies out" is because Poles, Syrians et al are not usually depicted as having dark skin. And seeing as this week's hate group appears to be the Turks ("LOOK! TURKS! EW!"), even that barrier appears to be being eroded.
I'm genuinely stunned that someone as bright as yourself regularly indulges in this sort of nonsense.
It's just silly and childish.
It would be patent nonsense to argue that all (or even a majority of) Leavers are racist but you could certainly argue that pretty much all racists are Leavers.
No. The racists are those who prefer nice white EU immigrants over nasty brown Global immigrants for the same level of skills and ability... otherwise known as the Remainers.
The number of non-EU immigrants is not going to rise as a result of Brexit.
If the points system is introduced people will be treated the same regardless of where they come from, it will be skills, abilities and contribution to the nation that will matter, the PROPORTION of immigrants from outside the EU will probably go up dramatically.
And the skill and education levels of immigrants will too.
To meet the Cameron pledge of immigration being reduced to tens of thousands , even if all immigration from the EU ceased , immigration from the rest of the world would have to be cut by around half from the 188,000 last year . As non EU nationals in employment in the UK increased by only 5,000 in 2015 a substantial % of non EU migrants clearly do not come here for work related reasons .
o_O How does that work ?
Worrying.
The other way of meeting the pledge is of course, outside the EU, to negotiate freer movement with prosperous English-speaking countries of the type Britons might want to go to, as well as keeping as much as possible with Western Europe. You can meet a net pledge by reducing in or by increasing out.
Yes lets keep all brownies out , only allow in Canadians , Aussies and US whitie English speakers .
Comments
We collectively need to be more grown up and refuse to allow a situation to continue where a politician being honest is regarded as a gaffe.
Gove's performance last night prompted one London punter to open account with Hills & bet £10,000 at 1/3 on a Remain victory
And sneer at those who don't consider the groovy new Bulgarian eatery down the road as a price worth paying. Or having their local shops filled with goods from Poland.
This referendum has totally changed the game. The entitled well off from both Labour/Tories against those who aren't and feel threatened/alienated and forgotten.
http://tucson.com/mcsally-will-vote-for-president-in-november-but-won-t/article_e002c72a-29ba-11e6-a0b9-cbf0eb8f4c87.html
test
Gove to many is a new face.Not to everyone of course. So toxic was he to teachers and parents that he had to be moved. But to most he is the new kid on the block. His schmaltz and insincerity to the woman with the house in France ant to the single mother can be forgiven because he is a fresh face. You might get away once with saying" I don't want experts on my side" but I do not recommend it as a government policy.
It rules what outrages us and makes us feel good.
Leave and Remain have fundamentally different ones. If you haven't seen it - Haidt is pretty interesting on this dilemma.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs41JrnGaxc
Not bad for a 1932 model.
One always felt sympathy for the likes of Mary Wilson, Ted Heath (on his own) and Audrey Callaghan, etc. feverishly working away throughout the night to have everything packed up ready for their departure the following morning.
Even IDS said in 2003 that it was a lie to suggest he wanted to leave the EU because he was afraid of the electoral consequences.
Cameron is not alone in believing Trump is a dangerous idiot, I would think 80% of world politicians share that view.
Boris Johnson: 'The only reason I wouldn't visit some parts of New York is the real risk of meeting Donald Trump'
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson/12039931/Boris-Johnson-The-only-reason-I-wouldnt-visit-some-parts-of-New-York-is-the-real-risk-of-meeting-Donald-Trump.html
Now, it maybe that is what the people of the UK want. We are about to find out.
One of the advantages of being out of the EU is that when a daft rule comes in (usually inspired by an EU directive which is then copper bottomed, then gold plated and is then put in a large cast iron box by way of guarantee so that Whitehall can feel it's doing its bit) they can't actually blame it on anyone else.
One of the sad things about modern politics is that if a government doesn't look busy people assume that's a bad thing. It isn't. Leaving things alone while we see what the last set of reforms did is a good idea. Constant fiddling so you can demand you're doing something is not helpful.
How do you refute the point about IDS? One of the most rabidly anti-EU politicians became leader of one of the major parties, but still didn't have the guts to be open about it. He knew it was electorally toxic.
That's the problem with these new fangled ideas. They don't last....
Before I think if we will face disaster outside the EU I'd like you to name a nation outside the EU comparable to us that is a disaster.
Seems democracy is working perfectly well over here.
The evidence is that the EU is not working.
You can't claim someone is an extremist cuddler, then two weeks later hug them as a great mate fellow traveller. Just beyond stupid.
No one's said it was a melding of Labour/Tory for Remain - it's been all about the disingenuous faux camaraderie.
You cite three elections in which singularly uncharismatic candidates with daft policies (which 30 years ago may well have included leaving the EU) lost elections, hardly a shocker. Thirty years ago more than three quarters of the population didn't want immigration reduced and a half want it reduced by a lot, times move on.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/649917/Nigel-Farage-backs-Donald-Trump-race-Whitehouse
As was pointed out upthread this month is the first time that all voters have the chance to vote on the issue of membership of the EU.
If you think the UK is booming, why change our current position in the EU but outside the Eurozone?
We have a referendum, thanks to Nigel. It's difficult to maintain we are under the oppressive EU yoke when we have every opportunity now to vote the UK out of the EU.
I think the Leavers argument is a whole lot stronger. And trying to label either as waycist is childish and lacking in nuance. Leavers don't call Remainers waycists unless they're accused of it themselves.
Just stop it. It's so 90s.
If we could reform the EU then great. If Cameron meaningfully had done so then great. But the EU has not been meaningfully reformed even when this referendum was at the end of the process. So if not now, then realistically when?
Outside the EU just like outside the Euro we can demonstrate the fear mongers to be wrong and forge a better alternative path. Give hope to those afraid themselves to cut loose and try something different.
Worrying.
Con 19.2%, Labour 5.2%, UKIP 21.2% Turnout for UKIP topping 75% with overall turnout 60.0%.
I have to reassess him. If he doesn't want to be PM, he certainly proven himself for another top job. CoE or FSec
She didn't want to believe it, Brexiteers are all horrible blah blah. Her viewpoint wasn't changed, but the point was made.