politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Remain appear to be winning the ground game but looks like
Comments
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There's a "right" American Werewolf movie!? Shocked I tell thee.viewcode said:
Unfortunately she was in the wrong American Werewolf movie. Although I think you have to be a certain age to get thatwelshowl said:
Googled her. Was in some "American Werewolf" movie. Think I need say little else.
Anyway sleep calls.
Nos da i chi gyd.0 -
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.SeanT said:
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
- Benjamin Franklin, 11 Nov. 1755.0 -
A prison called Hotel California.ReggieCide said:
Is the EU a gang or a club or a shitehouse?Sean_F said:
Do you want to be part of a gang that threatens you if you want to leave it?Stark_Dawning said:
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.BenedictWhite said:
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You are out of order yet again. You seem to think that abuse is acceptable if you do not agree with someone. Of course UK residents can go on holiday in Europe but you cannot say that this will be visa free if Europe decides to take action against the threat to their cherished free movement of peopleblackburn63 said:
Leisure movement?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The big issue would be the imposition of visas on the UK by the EU and the threat to holidays and general free business and leisure movement throughout Europenunu said:
The thing is most of the people planning on voting Leave are the "underclass" who don't have a chance of leaving Goole or Thanet let alone moving to Madrid or Amsterdam.Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
I called you out as a spoof weeks ago, I apologise, if you HONESTLY believe Brexit will mean we can't go to Magaluf you're not a spoof you're a fucking idiot. Even Remain wouldn't use you as a plant.
OK.
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Never really thought of you as one who frequents pubs.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
I'll have to miss it as I'm in the pubSunil_Prasannan said:
Alan Shearer doing a programme on Euro '96 after the Beeb News!Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
As a Spurs supporter. I'm voting LEAVE regardless of what Wenger does. Some things really are more important.VapidBilge said:Fatuous question:
Do Spurs fans vote Remain to keep Wenger at Arsenal, or vote Leave to get him removed?0 -
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?hunchman said:
Very simple, Cameron and co in their hubris believed that they could sell anything to the British people, including continued membership of the EU. But as the wonderful gentleman from the leave campaign on Channel 4 news tonight said, "there is no status quo in this election, its either more Brussels and more EU or get out" - I thought that was a great line and I'd go for the latter any week for every week in the next 20 years.TOPPING said:
Why on earth do you think they are allowing us to have this referendum?hunchman said:
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.Stark_Dawning said:
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.BenedictWhite said:
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You peopleblackburn63 said:
Leisure movement?plant.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The big issue wEuropenunu said:
The terdam.Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
OK.
Why do you think they would allow us to have a referendum on EU membership every week for the next 20 years?
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
As for a failure in superstate power, well we've been here enough times before haven't we - the collapse of Communism, the collapse of Nazism / Fascism, the collapse of Rome and every empire in history that hasn't been able to stand the test of time. If the people don't want it, the authorities that be can try to resist it, but eventually they'll run out of capital and credibility - the EU is no different in this regard and has completely lost sight of serving the people under its jurisdiction. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that its days are numbered.....and not before time.
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.0 -
It sounded to me like an obvious response by other EU countries to the idea that freedom of movement could be unilaterally rescinded cost-free without consequences.TCPoliticalBetting said:
What is the advantage to REMAIN in saying it? It comes across as a threat. A good move for LEAVE. BBC highlighting it in radio news bulletins I heard during the day whilst between meetings.AlastairMeeks said:I don't regard it as particularly exceptionable to note that if Britain chooses to limit access of EU member states' citizens to its shores that EU states might choose to review the terms of access of British citizens to their own country. We can expect reciprocal arrangements to be put in place, regardless of narrow economic arguments. After all, narrow economic arguments don't seem to interest Leavers very much.
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Actually I think UKIP and Farage always pitched it right when they spoke of Brexit as an 'amicable divorce' - we bear you no grudges but the Project isn't for us and we want to resolve matters to our shared advantage. Ironically it's been the Leave Tories who've been ratcheting things up to a destructive level - talk of Hitler, banning European immigrants, gloating about the resulting collapse of the whole EU. I don't know if it's some kind of esoteric macho Tory thing, but it doesn't seem to be aimed at making Brexit as smooth and as painless as possible.Sean_F said:
You would be eager to see Britain punished if we had the nerve to vote for Brexit.Stark_Dawning said:
Can't see any threats myself - just no longer doing us any favours.Sean_F said:
Do you want to be part of a gang that threatens you if you want to leave it?Stark_Dawning said:
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.BenedictWhite said:
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You are out of order yet again. You seem to think that abuse is acceptable if you do not agree with someone. Of course UK residents can go on holiday in Europe but you cannot say that this will be visa free if Europe decides to take action against the threat to their cherished free movement of peopleblackburn63 said:
Leisure movement?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The big issue would be the imposition of visas on the UK by the EU and the threat to holidays and general free business and leisure movement throughout Europenunu said:
The thing is most of the people planning on voting Leave are the "underclass" who don't have a chance of leaving Goole or Thanet let alone moving to Madrid or Amsterdam.Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
I called you out as a spoof weeks ago, I apologise, if you HONESTLY believe Brexit will mean we can't go to Magaluf you're not a spoof you're a fucking idiot. Even Remain wouldn't use you as a plant.
OK.0 -
£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.0 -
Ethan Hawke's partner. They have two girls. Every nine years they release their home movies to some acclaim. Some people think they're just acting but I know different, so there...blackburn63 said:
At the risk of looking silly, who is Julie Delpy?SeanT said:
OMGScott_P said:Oh dear
@StigAbell: Signatories to open letter include Arsene Wenger, Julie Delpy, Isabella Rossellini. https://t.co/EbE6b5fZ5O https://t.co/bTL0E9T1tv
Julie Delpy????
The referendum is won. Let's call it a night. Just get everything in crates. REMAIN has won. JULIE DELPY has SPOKEN0 -
Won't bother me then - thanks.FeersumEnjineeya said:
I don't see any threats, just statements of the bleedin' obvious. If we don't allow them freedom of movement to the UK, then there's no reason to expect them to allow us freedom of movement to the EU. Note: For avoidance of doubt, this refers to permanent settlement, not business and leisure trips!Tykejohnno said:More threats from foreign leaders and Dave stands by and smiles,British people don't like threats.
This is only heading one way if we remain - Superstate.0 -
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zero-rating it. Zero rating it has never been in a manifesto; it has never been a serious talking point. Not once, in the past 25 years. did 99.9% of the population have a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
I really don't think it's that dramatic.Cyclefree said:You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU economies, providing their young with the jobs those states were unable to. If that option is no longer open or not to the same extent, those states will have to bear the costs. So they will make it harder for British people to liv and work in their countries. But they would have to be pretty foolish to harm their own tourist industries or their own businesses. Doesn't mean it won't happen of course.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need to negotiate.
But aside from immigration, and the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years, I can't see why people get so het up about leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
Simple, eh?0 -
Lets be optimistic - perhaps they may think things through, Free movement is excellent when it is between countries which are broadly similar. Introduce a large group of countries with far lower per capita incomes and it becomes potentially explosive. The EU elite does not seem to grasp this at all.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why should they accept Brexit gratefully - their free movement is under threat and expect them to be ruthlessCyclefree said:You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU economies, providing their young with the jobs those states were unable to. If that option is no longer open or not to the same extent, those states will have to bear the costs. So they will make it harder for British people to liv and work in their countries. But they would have to be pretty foolish to harm their own tourist industries or their own businesses. Doesn't mean it won't happen of course.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.0 -
Absolutely, and the lack of any remotely positive message from the remain campaign says everything you need to know about them. People are losing CONFIDENCE in government.......and threat piled upon threat is only helping this process, so little do they know. I'd like the remain campaign and their apologists to keep going down the same track, they're actively aiding the leave campaign by so doing so!Sean_F said:
I think there'll be an absolute Götterdämmerung of threats over the next three weeks.Cyclefree said:You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU economies, providing their young with the jobs those states were unable to. If that option is no longer open or not to the same extent, those states will have to bear the costs. So they will make it harder for British people to liv and work in their countries. But they would have to be pretty foolish to harm their own tourist industries or their own businesses. Doesn't mean it won't happen of course.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.0 -
I like to pop in for one in the evening.stjohn said:
Never really thought of you as one who frequents pubs.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
I'll have to miss it as I'm in the pubSunil_Prasannan said:
Alan Shearer doing a programme on Euro '96 after the Beeb News!Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
As a Spurs supporter. I'm voting LEAVE regardless of what Wenger does. Some things really are more important.VapidBilge said:Fatuous question:
Do Spurs fans vote Remain to keep Wenger at Arsenal, or vote Leave to get him removed?0 -
Sky news
"After a stronger start, the Remain campaign appears to have been losing ground in the opinion polls to Vote Leave as the Brexiteers have turned their focus towards immigration."
Why is Sky referring to those who wish to leave as "Brexiteers"? If they do this then in the interests of balance they should use the term "Remaniacs" for those that wish to stay
So the above should actually be written as......
"After a stronger start, the Remainiacs campaign appears to have been losing ground in the opinion polls to Vote Leave as the Brexiteers have turned their focus towards immigration."
Only saying.......0 -
Ruthless and shoot themselves in the foot killing their holiday trade?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why should they accept Brexit gratefully - their free movement is under threat and expect them to be ruthlessCyclefree said:You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU economies, providing their young with the jobs those states were unable to. If that option is no longer open or not to the same extent, those states will have to bear the costs. So they will make it harder for British people to liv and work in their countries. But they would have to be pretty foolish to harm their own tourist industries or their own businesses. Doesn't mean it won't happen of course.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
They could do I suppose. Be daft if they did but still we will see.0 -
TOPPING said:
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zero-rating it. Zero rating it has never been in a manifesto; it has never been a serious talking point. Not once, in the past 25 years. did 99.9% of the population have a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
I really don't think it's that dramatic.Cyclefree said:You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU economies, providing their young with the jobs those states were unable to. If that option is no longer open or not to the same extent, those states will have to bear the costs. So they will make it harder for British people to liv and work in their countries. But they would have to be pretty foolish to harm their own tourist industries or their own businesses. Doesn't mean it won't happen of course.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need to negotiate.
But aside from immigration, and the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years, I can't see why people get so het up about leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
0 -
I don't think we joined the EU - considering it didn't exist for more than 20 years after we joined The Common Market. - So someone here is being naive or disingenuous - and it ain't me!TOPPING said:
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?hunchman said:
Very simple, Cameron and co in their hubris believed that they could sell anything to the British people, including continued membership of the EU. ...TOPPING said:
Why on earth do you think they are allowing us to have this referendum?hunchman said:
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.Stark_Dawning said:
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.BenedictWhite said:
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You peopleblackburn63 said:
Leisure movement?plant.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The big issue wEuropenunu said:
The terdam.Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
OK.
Why do you think they would allow us to have a referendum on EU membership every week for the next 20 years?
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
As for a failure in superstate power, well we've been here enough times before haven't we - the collapse of Communism, the collapse of Nazism / Fascism, the collapse of Rome and every empire in history that hasn't been able to stand the test of time. If the people don't want it, the authorities that be can try to resist it, but eventually they'll run out of capital and credibility - the EU is no different in this regard and has completely lost sight of serving the people under its jurisdiction. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that its days are numbered.....and not before time.
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.0 -
Where do you drink? Have you tried Hertsmere?Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
I like to pop in for one in the evening.stjohn said:
Never really thought of you as one who frequents pubs.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
I'll have to miss it as I'm in the pubSunil_Prasannan said:
Alan Shearer doing a programme on Euro '96 after the Beeb News!Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
As a Spurs supporter. I'm voting LEAVE regardless of what Wenger does. Some things really are more important.VapidBilge said:Fatuous question:
Do Spurs fans vote Remain to keep Wenger at Arsenal, or vote Leave to get him removed?0 -
Do you remain ?Sean_F said:
Do you want to be part of a gang that threatens you if you want to leave it?Stark_Dawning said:
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.BenedictWhite said:
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You are out of order yet again. You seem to think that abuse is acceptable if you do not agree with someone. Of course UK residents can go on holiday in Europe but you cannot say that this will be visa free if Europe decides to take action against the threat to their cherished free movement of peopleblackburn63 said:
Leisure movement?Big_G_NorthWales said:
The big issue would be the imposition of visas on the UK by the EU and the threat to holidays and general free business and leisure movement throughout Europenunu said:
The thing is most of the people planning on voting Leave are the "underclass" who don't have a chance of leaving Goole or Thanet let alone moving to Madrid or Amsterdam.Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
I called you out as a spoof weeks ago, I apologise, if you HONESTLY believe Brexit will mean we can't go to Magaluf you're not a spoof you're a fucking idiot. Even Remain wouldn't use you as a plant.
OK.0 -
Just found out from a friend of mine that she is going to be in the audience for Question Time tomorrow. I'd say she's more committed to the remain cause than me.0
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Hear, hear!SeanT said:
It is repulsively undemocratic. In the end freedom is what counts, everything else is just getting and spending, getting and spending. No one ever died thinking I'm so glad I bought that excellent 90 inch plasma screen TV, but people do die thinking, proudly: I spent my life as a free man, and I hand on a free country to my children.TOPPING said:
Fuck them indeed.SeanT said:
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.ReggieCide said:
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
We are not free. We are governed by those we do not elect. No the EU is not some horrible prison, or Stalinist tyranny, but it is very undemocratic, and it cannot be reformed, because there is no demos, and it encroaches ever further on our lives with laws we did not will, and laws we can never repeal, however we vote.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE0 -
It won't - but it is the perception that counts.foxinsoxuk said:
How would voting Leave stop the already illegal people smugglers?MP_SE said:Another good front page for Remain.
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/7381177763683901440 -
The White Tower had garderobes.Sean_F said:
Which is extraordinary. Windsor Castle had some privies in the 1360s. Henry VIII built the Great House of Easement at Hampton Court in the 1530's. Even worse, Versailles was full of pets that weren't house-trained. Madame de Maintenon even kept pet mice that roamed at will.SeanT said:
Famously Versailles was built, originally, without toilets.Sean_F said:
Monsieur certainly played for both sides. He had 11 children, as well as numerous boyfriends, and would turn up on the battlefield beribboned and made up - but he fought like a lion.HYUFD said:
10 minutes in and you have had your two scenes!Scott_P said:
@camillalong: 90 seconds into Versailles and still no gay sex or naked tittays. FlopHYUFD said:French historical bonkbuster, Versailles, about to start now on BBC2
I imagine that the show makes everyone look much cleaner, and more attractive, than was actually the case.
So you'd have all these fabulously rich, coiffured, periwigged French counts and countesses urgently taking a crap or a pee in any old corner, right behind the Flemish tapestries.
I must say, I did like the double-decker toilets at Hampton Court.0 -
The principles America declared Independence upon are very pertinent and what we should learn from."No taxation without representation"Sunil_Prasannan said:
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.SeanT said:
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
- Benjamin Franklin, 11 Nov. 1755.
The people in america that made the Boston Tea Party protest, objected to the Tea Act because they believed that it violated their rights as Englishmen to "No taxation without representation," that is, to be taxed only by their own elected representatives and not by a British parliament in which they were not represented. We now have tax rules tabled by an unelected Commission and then voted on in which we have a timy minority of the votes. Effectively no representation in many aspects of law.0 -
It's politicians you suspect will act irrationally. People just want to keep their jobs. If that happens, it's really just another strike against the political class. No-one is going to appreciate factory closures because politicians are trying to teach the Brits a lesson.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.0 -
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.0 -
Memo to remain:
Stop with the threats, whether economic or implied restrictions from foreign leaders.
Try and give us a reason to vote to stay.
Oh, wait.....0 -
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zero-rating it. Zero rating it has never been in a manifesto; it has never been a serious talking point. Not once, in the past 25 years. did 99.9% of the population have a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
I really don't think it's that dramatic.Cyclefree said:You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need to negotiate.
But aside from immigration, and the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years, I can't see why people get so het up about leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?0 -
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.TOPPING said:
Does freedom mean:SeanT said:
It is repulsively undemocratic. In the end freedom is what counts, everything else is just getting and spending, getting and spending. No one ever died thinking I'm so glad I bought that excellent 90 inch plasma screen TV, but people do die thinking, proudly: I spent my life as a free man, and I hand on a free country to my children.TOPPING said:
Fuck them indeed.SeanT said:
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.ReggieCide said:
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
We are not free. We are governed by those we do not elect. No the EU is not some horrible prison, or Stalinist tyranny, but it is very undemocratic, and it cannot be reformed, because there is no demos, and it encroaches ever further on our lives with laws we did not will, and laws we can never repeal, however we vote.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or
b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.0 -
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.0 -
What are UKIP do to with this? They have one effing MP....TOPPING said:
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zero-rating it. Zero rating it has never been in a manifesto; it has never been a serious talking point. Not once, in the past 25 years. did 99.9% of the population have a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
I really don't think it's that dramatic.Cyclefree said:You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need to negotiate.
But aside from immigration, and the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years, I can't see why people get so het up about leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
0 -
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/738043854247604224FrankBooth said:Just found out from a friend of mine that she is going to be in the audience for Question Time tomorrow. I'd say she's more committed to the remain cause than me.
0 -
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.Mortimer said:
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.0 -
Re the puzzle on the previous thread.
Instead of iris flaws, I'll change it to "blue eyes", as that is the formulation most commonly found via Google.
If you discover you have blue eyes you must throw yourself off the cliff the next morning.
To simplify, forget the rest of the tribespeople, and consider just those with blue eyes.
If there is just one, he will live happily never knowing he has BE, until the explorer arrives and makes the announcement. "There is at least one person with blue eyes." The blue-eyed individual obviously deduces it is him, as he sees no other, and kills himself the next day.
Now for two BEs. Each knows there is at least one BE, as they can see each other, so the announcement says nothing new - or does it?
Prior, the two BEs would not kill themselves as they could never know they were BE. Afterwards, they both know that they both know there is at least one BE. This is a new order of knowledge. On the first morning, no-one kills themselves. On the second, they both jump off the cliff, as they both realize that since no-one killed themselves the first day, they both must be BEs!
Now for three BEs. Call them X, Y and Z. Prior to the announcement the position is as follows.
X sees two BEs. He knows that Y sees one BE (Z), and Z sees Y. Therefore everyone already knows there is at least one BE.
However, X does not know if Y knows if Z knows there are any BEs. How so? X knows Z can see Y, but if X is non-BE, Y will not know if Z can see any BEs. Since X doesn't know if he, X, is BE, he therefore cannot know if Y knows if Z knows there are any BEs.
The explorer makes his announcement. Now Z definitely knows there are BEs, and Y knows that Z knows, and X knows that Y knows that Z knows... By symmetry, everyone knows that everyone knows that everyone knows there is at least one BE among them...
On the first morning, no-one kills themselves, because everyone already knows, from seeing each other, there are at least two BEs. When no-one kills themselves on the second day, the three tribesmen know they must all leap over the cliff on the third day.
This logic can be extended all the way up for any number of BEs. Call that number n.
The explorer's announcement imparts Common Knowledge that they did not previously have, and also informs everyone that if the n -1 BEs they can see do not kill themselves on the n-1th day, there must in fact be n, and they are the nth!
So everyone goes over the cliff on the nth day...0 -
Good comparisons on newsnight between EU ref and Indyref. Basically suggesting that project fear is not working here because people are not scared of the UK being independent.
This might just happen!0 -
Yes, but I'm very close to the borders of Welwyn Hatfield and Broxbournestjohn said:
Where do you drink? Have you tried Hertsmere?Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
I like to pop in for one in the evening.stjohn said:
Never really thought of you as one who frequents pubs.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
I'll have to miss it as I'm in the pubSunil_Prasannan said:
Alan Shearer doing a programme on Euro '96 after the Beeb News!Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
As a Spurs supporter. I'm voting LEAVE regardless of what Wenger does. Some things really are more important.VapidBilge said:Fatuous question:
Do Spurs fans vote Remain to keep Wenger at Arsenal, or vote Leave to get him removed?0 -
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.AlastairMeeks said:
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.Mortimer said:
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.0 -
Moron. Sorry, but if you believe that as a member of the EU we are somehow less "free", then you are a moron.Moses_ said:
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.TOPPING said:
Does freedom mean:SeanT said:
It is repulsively undemocratic. In the end freedom is what counts, everything else is just getting and spending, getting and spending. No one ever died thinking I'm so glad I bought that excellent 90 inch plasma screen TV, but people do die thinking, proudly: I spent my life as a free man, and I hand on a free country to my children.TOPPING said:
Fuck them indeed.SeanT said:
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.ReggieCide said:
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
We are not free. We are governed by those we do not elect. No the EU is not some horrible prison, or Stalinist tyranny, but it is very undemocratic, and it cannot be reformed, because there is no demos, and it encroaches ever further on our lives with laws we did not will, and laws we can never repeal, however we vote.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or
b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
We are a sovereign people who decided to a) join the EU, and b) now have a referendum on continued membership of the EU.
Which part of that puts us under the oppressive yoke of the EU?
We could have a referendum on the issue every Thursday if we wanted. It is what sovereignty means. The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. The debate is about whether on balance we prefer the rules we like more than we dislike the rules we don't like.
All this freedom bollox is just embarrassing.0 -
Boris at 22% suggests he remains teflon, Fox at 11% is a little worrying, particularly if Gove doesn't fancy it. Where would his supporters go.HYUFD said:Conservative Home next Tory leader survey of party members
Gove 30%, Boris 22%, May 16%, Fox 11%, Osborne 8%, Patel 6%, Javid 4%, Morgan 2%, Hunt 2%
http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/06/gove-tops-our-next-party-leader-survey-for-the-third-month-running.html0 -
We joined the EEC, not the EU for starters! And Edward Heath admitted in a BBC interview around the millenium that the intention all along had been to deceive the British people into believing it was just a free trade common market area instead of a European superstate. The EU project has operated by deceit over so many years now - and sooner or later the lies and deceit catch up - as they are right now.TOPPING said:
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?hunchman said:
Very simple, Came.TOPPING said:
Why on earth do you think they are allowing us to have this referendum?hunchman said:
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.Stark_Dawning said:
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.BenedictWhite said:
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You peopleblackburn63 said:
Leisure movement?plant.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The big issue wEuropenunu said:
The terdam.Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
OK.
Why do you think they would allow us to have a referendum on EU membership every week for the next 20 years?
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.0 -
Oh - you get treatment at a hospital, but you don't get things such as cancellation cover, costs for transport home, that sort of thing. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3111141/Family-man-fell-coma-holiday-Turkey-faces-50-000-medical-bill-insurance-company-refuse-pay-forgot-tick-box.html shows what can happen (Turkey is rated as 'Europe' for travel insurance purposes)FeersumEnjineeya said:
Sorry, I meant EHIC of course - mind just slipped a decade.weejonnie said:
Forget about the EHIC (E111 is Sooo 1990s - it ended in 2005) And many insurers rate countries outside the EU but in Europe exactly the same as those in the EU. (Trust me on this - I am a travel insurance broker).FeersumEnjineeya said:
Yes, as I said, I wouldn't expect holidays to be a problem (apart from a little more hassle with insurance due the the lack of an E111). This isn't what is meant by "freedom of movement" though. FoM implies the right to settle, i.e. live, work, study, retire, etc., not just take short trips for business or leisure. That's what's in doubt.weejonnie said:
Again - with Southern Europe largely dependent on the UK spending dosh on holidays, I am pretty sure there won't be many if any restrictions.FeersumEnjineeya said:
Presumably our relationship with the EU ....Big_G_NorthWales said:
The big issue would be the imposition of visas on the UK by the EU and the threat to holidays and general free business and leisure movement throughout Europenunu said:
The thing is most of the people planning on voting Leave are the "underclass" who don't have a chance of leaving Goole or Thanet let alone moving to Madrid or Amsterdam.Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
(Anyone trusting in the EHIC is naïve at best, stupid at worst)
Oh - and there ARE countries not in the EU but who are members of the Erasmus scheme.
Why is it wrong to trust the EHIC? Personally, I've always regarded travel insurance as a complete waste of money - virtually a scam - when travelling to the EU and have never bought any. Mind you, I suppose there may be certain circumstances in which it might be worthwhile buying.
"Steve Rowland of Rowland Brothers said: “It might be possible to pay as much as £7,000 to bring someone back from Spain, but we would hope to do it for under £3,500.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/insurance/travel/10895307/Travel-insurance-policies-and-the-17000-cost-of-dying-abroad.html0 -
TOPPING said:
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zero-rating it. Zero rating it has never been in a manifesto; it has never been a serious talking point. Not once, in the past 25 years. did 99.9% of the population have a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
I really don't think it's that dramatic.Cyclefree said:You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need to negotiate.
But aside from immigration, and the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years, I can't see why people get so het up about leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. Focussing on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
0 -
Surely an island is surrounded by a reflective surface - the sea?RodCrosby said:Re the puzzle on the previous thread.
Instead of iris flaws, I'll change it to "blue eyes", as that is the formulation most commonly found via Google.
If you discover you have blue eyes you must throw yourself off the cliff the next morning.
To simplify, forget the rest of the tribespeople, and consider just those with blue eyes.
If there is just one, he will live happily never knowing he has BE, until the explorer arrives and makes the announcement. "There is at least one person with blue eyes." The blue-eyed individual obviously deduces it is him, as he sees no other, and kills himself the next day.
Now for two BEs. Each knows there is at least one BE, as they can see each other, so the announcement says nothing new - or does it?
Prior, the two BEs would not kill themselves as they could never know they were BE. Afterwards, they both know that they both know there is at least one BE. This is a new order of knowledge. On the first morning, no-one kills themselves. On the second, they both jump off the cliff, as they both realize that since no-one killed themselves the first day, they both must be BEs!
Now for three BEs. Call them X, Y and Z. Prior to the announcement the position is as follows.
X sees two BEs. He knows that Y sees one BE (Z), and Z sees Y. Therefore everyone already knows there is at least one BE.
However, X does not know if Y knows if Z knows there are any BEs. How so? X knows Z can see Y, but if X is non-BE, Y will not know if Z can see any BEs. Since X doesn't know if he, X, is BE, he therefore cannot know if Y knows if Z knows there are any BEs.
The explorer makes his announcement. Now Z definitely knows there are BEs, and Y knows that Z knows, and X knows that Y knows that Z knows... By symmetry, everyone knows that everyone knows that everyone knows there is at least one BE among them...
On the first morning, no-one kills themselves, because everyone already knows, from seeing each other, there are at least two BEs. When no-one kills themselves on the second day, the three tribesmen know they must all leap over the cliff on the third day.
This logic can be extended all the way up for any number of BEs. Call that number n.
The explorer's announcement imparts Common Knowledge that they did not previously have, and also informs everyone that if the n -1 BEs they can see do not kill themselves on the n-1th day, there must in fact be n, and they are the nth!
So everyone goes over the cliff on the nth day...0 -
Well that's not true either.Mortimer said:
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.AlastairMeeks said:
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.Mortimer said:
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.0 -
Not how it was couched in the broadcasts that I heard. "Dutch PM's warning over Brexit 'fairer immigration' claim"AlastairMeeks said:
It sounded to me like an obvious response by other EU countries to the idea that freedom of movement could be unilaterally rescinded cost-free without consequences.TCPoliticalBetting said:
What is the advantage to REMAIN in saying it? It comes across as a threat. A good move for LEAVE. BBC highlighting it in radio news bulletins I heard during the day whilst between meetings.AlastairMeeks said:I don't regard it as particularly exceptionable to note that if Britain chooses to limit access of EU member states' citizens to its shores that EU states might choose to review the terms of access of British citizens to their own country. We can expect reciprocal arrangements to be put in place, regardless of narrow economic arguments. After all, narrow economic arguments don't seem to interest Leavers very much.
0 -
Yes. That's fine. It's changed, it's overreached. It now dictates the maximum number of widgets allowed on a thingummyflip. And you hate that. You would prefer a different maximum number of widgets. I get it. So vote Leave.hunchman said:
We joined the EEC, not the EU for starters! And Edward Heath admitted in a BBC interview around the millenium that the intention all along had been to deceive the British people into believing it was just a free trade common market area instead of a European superstate. The EU project has operated by deceit over so many years now - and sooner or later the lies and deceit catch up - as they are right now.TOPPING said:
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?hunchman said:
Very simple, Came.TOPPING said:
Why on earth do you think they are allowing us to have this referendum?hunchman said:
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.Stark_Dawning said:
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.BenedictWhite said:
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You peopleblackburn63 said:
Leisure movement?plant.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The big issue wEuropenunu said:
The terdam.Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
OK.
Why do you think they would allow us to have a referendum on EU membership every week for the next 20 years?
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
But don't give me all this bollocks about sovereignty or freedom0 -
You think we have a truly single market in services? Hahaha.AlastairMeeks said:
Well that's not true either.Mortimer said:
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.AlastairMeeks said:
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.Mortimer said:
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.0 -
The mask slips - "The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. "TOPPING said:
Moron. Sorry, but if you believe that as a member of the EU we are somehow less "free", then you are a moron.Moses_ said:
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.TOPPING said:
Does freedom mean:SeanT said:
It is repulsively undemocratic. In the end freedom is what counts, everything else is just getting and spending, getting and spending. No one ever died thinking I'm so glad I bought that excellent 90 inch plasma screen TV, but people do die thinking, proudly: I spent my life as a free man, and I hand on a free country to my children.TOPPING said:
Fuck them indeed.SeanT said:
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.ReggieCide said:
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
We are not free. We are governed by those we do not elect. No the EU is not some horrible prison, or Stalinist tyranny, but it is very undemocratic, and it cannot be reformed, because there is no demos, and it encroaches ever further on our lives with laws we did not will, and laws we can never repeal, however we vote.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or
b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
We are a sovereign people who decided to a) join the EU, and b) now have a referendum on continued membership of the EU.
Which part of that puts us under the oppressive yoke of the EU?
We could have a referendum on the issue every Thursday if we wanted. It is what sovereignty means. The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. The debate is about whether on balance we prefer the rules we like more than we dislike the rules we don't like.
All this freedom bollox is just embarrassing.
So you've openly admitted that you're prepared to settle for a sub-optimal arrangement. What a miserable lack of ambition you have in achieving what's best for the wider population at large!0 -
Try reading your last two posts one after the other, realise just how silly you have been, blush, then step away from the computer.Mortimer said:
You think we have a truly single market in services? Hahaha.AlastairMeeks said:
Well that's not true either.Mortimer said:
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.AlastairMeeks said:
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.Mortimer said:
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
But then, I'd expect that kind of false dichotomy from Leavers who don't understand the difference between nothing and all.
0 -
I just don't see where this idea comes from. 4 quarters of -0.1% growth? Gosh, I'm quaking in my boots....viewcode said:
You have enough to afford a Brexit. Many do not.SeanT said:Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
0 -
Actually, Julie Delpy isn't quite the nobody we all thought. She's in two of my favourite movies.
Waking Life and Three Colours: White.0 -
Truly, it is the only concrete example of EU anti-sovereignty that anyone in the Leave campaign can think of. That and droit de suite.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zeroave a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
I really don't think it's that dramatic.Cyclefree said:You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need out leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. Focussing on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
The rest is made up tinfoil hat hide under the bed bollocks.0 -
They did not ask about Andrea Leadsom.FrankBooth said:
Boris at 22% suggests he remains teflon, Fox at 11% is a little worrying, particularly if Gove doesn't fancy it. Where would his supporters go.HYUFD said:Conservative Home next Tory leader survey of party members
Gove 30%, Boris 22%, May 16%, Fox 11%, Osborne 8%, Patel 6%, Javid 4%, Morgan 2%, Hunt 2%
http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2016/06/gove-tops-our-next-party-leader-survey-for-the-third-month-running.html
0 -
-
Dear fucking hell Jesus Christ God in heaven.hunchman said:
The mask slips - "The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. "TOPPING said:
Moron. Sorry, but if you believe that as a member of the EU we are somehow less "free", then you are a moron.Moses_ said:
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.TOPPING said:
Does freedom mean:SeanT said:
It is repulsively undemocn.TOPPING said:
Fuck them indeed.SeanT said:
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.ReggieCide said:
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
s we did not will, and laws we can never repeal, however we vote.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or
b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
We are a sovereign people who decided to a) join the EU, and b) now have a referendum on continued membership of the EU.
Which part of that puts us under the oppressive yoke of the EU?
We could have a referendum on the issue every Thursday if we wanted. It is what sovereignty means. The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. The debate is about whether on balance we prefer the rules we like more than we dislike the rules we don't like.
All this freedom bollox is just embarrassing.
So you've openly admitted that you're prepared to settle for a sub-optimal arrangement. What a miserable lack of ambition you have in achieving what's best for the wider population at large!
LIFE is about compromise. So what? You think we will leave the EU and the remaining 162 nations on earth will bend to our will because no one knows how to put on a spectacle like Trooping the Colour as well as we do?
You lot really are not the best example of a well-thought through argument.0 -
Considering the number pauperised by cheap Eastern European labour, this faux concern for people's living standards is rich indeed.viewcode said:
You have enough to afford a Brexit. Many do not.SeanT said:Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
0 -
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/fr/cp0/e15/q65/13310351_10154866388699606_7940346672459603978_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=500b1a69e8d3f518f214b32b371723ec&oe=580E3E4A
No dodgy hand with pencil in the instructions on my ballot paper0 -
Yeah yeah. We know you are so thick you don't even understand what the terms mean. Crawl back under your rock and let the rest of us get on with actually achieving something meaningful.TOPPING said:
Yes. That's fine. It's changed, it's overreached. It now dictates the maximum number of widgets allowed on a thingummyflip. And you hate that. You would prefer a different maximum number of widgets. I get it. So vote Leave.hunchman said:
We joined the EEC, not the EU for starters! And Edward Heath admitted in a BBC interview around the millenium that the intention all along had been to deceive the British people into believing it was just a free trade common market area instead of a European superstate. The EU project has operated by deceit over so many years now - and sooner or later the lies and deceit catch up - as they are right now.TOPPING said:
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?hunchman said:
Very simple, Came.TOPPING said:
Why on earth do you think they are allowing us to have this referendum?hunchman said:
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.Stark_Dawning said:
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.BenedictWhite said:
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You peopleblackburn63 said:
Leisure movement?plant.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The big issue wEuropenunu said:
The terdam.Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
OK.
Why do you think they would allow us to have a referendum on EU membership every week for the next 20 years?
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
But don't give me all this bollocks about sovereignty or freedom0 -
You can't have a single market which has internal restrictions.AlastairMeeks said:
Try reading your last two posts one after the other, realise just how silly you have been, blush, then step away from the computer.Mortimer said:
You think we have a truly single market in services? Hahaha.AlastairMeeks said:
Well that's not true either.Mortimer said:
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.AlastairMeeks said:
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.Mortimer said:
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
But then, I'd expect that kind of false dichotomy from Leavers who don't understand the difference between nothing and all.
The EU service 'single market' has a huge number of national restrictions. It is therefore not a single market. And this is what Remainiacs are getting knickers in a huge twist about?
P.S. - Yes, I missed out the word single before market. But the point about single market for services not existing remains....0 -
Back to abuse I seeTOPPING said:
Moron. Sorry, but if you believe that as a member of the EU we are somehow less "free", then you are a moron.Moses_ said:
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.TOPPING said:
Does freedom mean:SeanT said:
It is repulsively undemocratic. In the end freedom is what counts, everything else is just getting and spending, getting and spending. No one ever died thinking I'm so glad I bought that excellent 90 inch plasma screen TV, but people do die thinking, proudly: I spent my life as a free man, and I hand on a free country to my children.TOPPING said:
Fuck them indeed.SeanT said:
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.ReggieCide said:
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
We are not free. We are governed by those we do not elect. No the EU is not some horrible prison, or Stalinist tyranny, but it is very undemocratic, and it cannot be reformed, because there is no demos, and it encroaches ever further on our lives with laws we did not will, and laws we can never repeal, however we vote.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or
b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
We are a sovereign people who decided to a) join the EU, and b) now have a referendum on continued membership of the EU.
Which part of that puts us under the oppressive yoke of the EU?
We could have a referendum on the issue every Thursday if we wanted. It is what sovereignty means. The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. The debate is about whether on balance we prefer the rules we like more than we dislike the rules we don't like.
All this freedom bollox is just embarrassing.
Fuck off then0 -
24 of the 27 EU nations make a surplus from trading with us.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
They have a net 2m jobs that we could take back off them by switching to domestic production instead of imports0 -
TOPPING said:
Truly, it is the only concrete example of EU anti-sovereignty that anyone in the Leave campaign can think of. That and droit de suite.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zeroave a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
I really don't think it's that dramatic.Cyclefree said:You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need out leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. Focussing on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
The rest is made up tinfoil hat hide under the bed bollocks.
It's a simple example to get the message across.
0 -
All compromises are (from your own point of view) sub-optimal by definition. You could decide never to compromise with anyone, but the results of doing that would be... sub-optimal. In reality leaving the EU would involve a bunch of different negotiations resulting in different compromises.hunchman said:
The mask slips - "The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. "
So you've openly admitted that you're prepared to settle for a sub-optimal arrangement. What a miserable lack of ambition you have in achieving what's best for the wider population at large!0 -
You forgot VAT on tampons.TOPPING said:
Truly, it is the only concrete example of EU anti-sovereignty that anyone in the Leave campaign can think of. That and droit de suite.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zeroave a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
I really don't think it's that dramatic.Cyclefree said:You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
The EU has enabled trade and movement amongst its member states. It tries to normalise things that probably shouldn't be normalised, but really, it is not the huge superstate conspiracy that so many on here fear.
If we leave there will be huge disruption, which is not to say we couldn't negotiate all the things we will need out leaving.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
The rest is made up tinfoil hat hide under the bed bollocks.0 -
The single market in services is not complete. It's utter rubbish to suggest that there is no services market.Mortimer said:
You can't have a single market which has internal restrictions.AlastairMeeks said:
Try reading your last two posts one after the other, realise just how silly you have been, blush, then step away from the computer.Mortimer said:
You think we have a truly single market in services? Hahaha.AlastairMeeks said:
Well that's not true either.Mortimer said:
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.AlastairMeeks said:
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.Mortimer said:
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
But then, I'd expect that kind of false dichotomy from Leavers who don't understand the difference between nothing and all.
The EU service 'single market' has a huge number of national restrictions. It is therefore not a single market. And this is what Remainiacs are getting knickers in a huge twist about?0 -
What. A. Moron.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yeah yeah. We know you are so thick you don't even understand what the terms mean. Crawl back under your rock and let the rest of us get on with actually achieving something meaningful.TOPPING said:
Yes. That's fine. It's changed, it's overreached. It now dictates the maximum number of widgets allowed on a thingummyflip. And you hate that. You would prefer a different maximum number of widgets. I get it. So vote Leave.hunchman said:
We joined the EEC, not the EU for starte EU project has operated by deceit over so many years now - and sooner or later the lies and deceit catch up - as they are right now.TOPPING said:
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?hunchman said:
Very simple, Came.TOPPING said:
Why on earth do you thinkhunchman said:
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.Stark_Dawning said:
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.BenedictWhite said:
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You peopleblackburn63 said:
Leisure movement?plant.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The big issue wEuropenunu said:
The terdam.Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
OK.
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
But don't give me all this bollocks about sovereignty or freedom
A much-needed reasoned intellectual contribution from Richard.
I think you had perhaps return to your game of Mobile Strike. Much easier to control than real life (although for an utter moron such as yourself, perhaps not without its challenges).0 -
I think I agree with you. I shall light a candle.Luckyguy1983 said:
It's politicians you suspect will act irrationally. People just want to keep their jobs. If that happens, it's really just another strike against the political class. No-one is going to appreciate factory closures because politicians are trying to teach the Brits a lesson.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.0 -
The most coherent thing you have posted all evening.Moses_ said:
Back to abuse I seeTOPPING said:
Moron. Sorry, but if you believe that as a member of the EU we are somehow less "free", then you are a moron.Moses_ said:
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.TOPPING said:
Does freedom mean:SeanT said:
It is repulsively undemocratic. In the end freedom is what counts, everything else is just getting and spending, getting and spending. No one ever died thinking I'm so glad I bought that excellent 90 inch plasma screen TV, but people do die thinking, proudly: I spent my life as a free man, and I hand on a free country to my children.TOPPING said:
Fuck them indeed.SeanT said:
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.ReggieCide said:
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
We are not free. We are governed by those we do not elect. No the EU is not some horrible prison, or Stalinist tyranny, but it is very undemocratic, and it cannot be reformed, because there is no demos, and it encroaches ever further on our lives with laws we did not will, and laws we can never repeal, however we vote.
Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
LEAVE
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or
b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
We are a sovereign people who decided to a) join the EU, and b) now have a referendum on continued membership of the EU.
Which part of that puts us under the oppressive yoke of the EU?
We could have a referendum on the issue every Thursday if we wanted. It is what sovereignty means. The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. The debate is about whether on balance we prefer the rules we like more than we dislike the rules we don't like.
All this freedom bollox is just embarrassing.
Fuck off then0 -
Not much of a single market if it is not complete...AlastairMeeks said:
The single market in services is not complete. It's utter rubbish to suggest that there is no services market.Mortimer said:
You can't have a single market which has internal restrictions.AlastairMeeks said:
Try reading your last two posts one after the other, realise just how silly you have been, blush, then step away from the computer.Mortimer said:
You think we have a truly single market in services? Hahaha.AlastairMeeks said:
Well that's not true either.Mortimer said:
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.AlastairMeeks said:
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.Mortimer said:
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
But then, I'd expect that kind of false dichotomy from Leavers who don't understand the difference between nothing and all.
The EU service 'single market' has a huge number of national restrictions. It is therefore not a single market. And this is what Remainiacs are getting knickers in a huge twist about?0 -
It's the only effing example.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
Truly, it is the only concrete example of EU anti-sovereignty that anyone in the Leave campaign can think of. That and droit de suite.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zeroave a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
I really don't think it's that draaving.Cyclefree said:You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. Focussing on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
The rest is made up tinfoil hat hide under the bed bollocks.
It's a simple example to get the message across.
And for that you will leave the whole edifice that, for all its imperfections, has delivered unambiguous benefit to the UK these past few decades?0 -
As a libertarian I don't want any based central command about the number of widgets to produce........that's been and tried many times....and its always worked out so wonderfully as Venezuela currently attests doesn't it?!TOPPING said:
Yes. That's fine. It's changed, it's overreached. It now dictates the maximum number of widgets allowed on a thingummyflip. And you hate that. You would prefer a different maximum number of widgets. I get it. So vote Leave.hunchman said:
We joined the EEC, not the EU for starters! And Edward Heath admitted in a BBC interview around the millenium that the intention all along had been to deceive the British people into believing it was just a free trade common market area instead of a European superstate. The EU project has operated by deceit over so many years now - and sooner or later the lies and deceit catch up - as they are right now.TOPPING said:
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?hunchman said:
Very simple, Came.TOPPING said:
Why on earth do you think they are allowing us to have this referendum?hunchman said:
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.Stark_Dawning said:
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.BenedictWhite said:
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You peopleblackburn63 said:
Leisure movement?plant.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The big issue wEuropenunu said:
The terdam.Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
OK.
Why do you think they would allow us to have a referendum on EU membership every week for the next 20 years?
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
But don't give me all this bollocks about sovereignty or freedom0 -
The move toward a single market in services (what some describe as red tape and Brussels diktats) will halt or reverse. I suspect the EU states will be happy to have a single market in manufactures if they can block our services.Mortimer said:
Not much of a single market if it is not complete...AlastairMeeks said:
The single market in services is not complete. It's utter rubbish to suggest that there is no services market.Mortimer said:
You can't have a single market which has internal restrictions.AlastairMeeks said:
Try reading your last two posts one after the other, realise just how silly you have been, blush, then step away from the computer.Mortimer said:
You think we have a truly single market in services? Hahaha.AlastairMeeks said:
Well that's not true either.Mortimer said:
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.AlastairMeeks said:
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.Mortimer said:
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
But then, I'd expect that kind of false dichotomy from Leavers who don't understand the difference between nothing and all.
The EU service 'single market' has a huge number of national restrictions. It is therefore not a single market. And this is what Remainiacs are getting knickers in a huge twist about?0 -
Your losing it.TOPPING said:
It's the only effing example.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
Truly, it is the only concrete example of EU anti-sovereignty that anyone in the Leave campaign can think of. That and droit de suite.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zeroave a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
I really don't think it's that draaving.Cyclefree said:You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. Focussing on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
The rest is made up tinfoil hat hide under the bed bollocks.
It's a simple example to get the message across.
And for that you will leave the whole edifice that, for all its imperfections, has delivered unambiguous benefit to the UK these past few decades?
0 -
Quite right, Mr. Meeks, but the question has to be why, after all these years, is the market not complete? Could it be that Germany and France don't want it?AlastairMeeks said:
The single market in services is not complete. It's utter rubbish to suggest that there is no services market.Mortimer said:
You can't have a single market which has internal restrictions.AlastairMeeks said:
Try reading your last two posts one after the other, realise just how silly you have been, blush, then step away from the computer.Mortimer said:
You think we have a truly single market in services? Hahaha.AlastairMeeks said:
Well that's not true either.Mortimer said:
There are problems with the service market - it basically doesn't exist at the moment.AlastairMeeks said:
That's nice for the rest of the EU. But since Britain is disproportionately an exporter of services, that doesn't fill me with confidence, even taking that unsubstantiated assertion at face value.Mortimer said:
No problem then. There will not be tariffs on goods.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
But then, I'd expect that kind of false dichotomy from Leavers who don't understand the difference between nothing and all.
The EU service 'single market' has a huge number of national restrictions. It is therefore not a single market. And this is what Remainiacs are getting knickers in a huge twist about?0 -
Shouldn't you want every country to optimise its well-being which, inevitably, will involve compromise? Shouldn't everyone? I do.hunchman said:
As a libertarian I don't want any based central command about the number of widgets to produce........that's been and tried many times....and its always worked out so wonderfully as Venezuela currently attests doesn't it?!TOPPING said:
Yes. That's fine. It's changed, it's overreached. It now dictates the maximum number of widgets allowed on a thingummyflip. And you hate that. You would prefer a different maximum number of widgets. I get it. So vote Leave.hunchman said:
We joined the EEC, not as just a free trade common market area instead of a European superstate. The EU project has operated by deceit over so many years now - and sooner or later the lies and deceit catch up - as they are right now.TOPPING said:
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?hunchman said:
Very simple, Came.TOPPING said:
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?hunchman said:
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.Stark_Dawning said:
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.BenedictWhite said:
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You peopleblackburn63 said:
Leisure movement?plant.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The big issue wEuropenunu said:
The terdam.Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
OK.
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
But don't give me all this bollocks about sovereignty or freedom
0 -
That would be more expensive from our point of view. If we could produce domestically for the same price...we'd already be doing it. So they lose jobs and we lose money...and this is why trade wars are such a bad idea.chestnut said:
24 of the 27 EU nations make a surplus from trading with us.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, Britain is far more dependent on exporting to the EU than vice versa.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.
They have a net 2m jobs that we could take back off them by switching to domestic production instead of imports0 -
Why would we want anyone to bend to our will? There are a lot of non-EU countries who want to sell us products at a cheaper rate without the EU taxes that are levied and the other regulatory burdens placed on them. Food from the developing world is one example where we could buy more from them, pay less yet they would receive more £ from us. A win win.TOPPING said:
LIFE is about compromise. So what? You think we will leave the EU and the remaining 162 nations on earth will bend to our will because no one knows how to put on a spectacle like Trooping the Colour as well as we do?hunchman said:
The mask slips - "The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. "TOPPING said:
Moron. Sorry, but if you believe that as a member of the EU we are somehow less "free", then you are a moron.Moses_ said:
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.TOPPING said:
Does freedom mean:SeanT said:
It is repulsively undemocn.TOPPING said:
Fuck them indeed.SeanT said:
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.ReggieCide said:
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
.......
LEAVE
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or
b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
We are a sovereign people who decided to a) join the EU, and b) now have a referendum on continued membership of the EU.
Which part of that puts us under the oppressive yoke of the EU?
We could have a referendum on the issue every Thursday if we wanted. It is what sovereignty means. The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. The debate is about whether on balance we prefer the rules we like more than we dislike the rules we don't like.
All this freedom bollox is just embarrassing.
So you've openly admitted that you're prepared to settle for a sub-optimal arrangement. What a miserable lack of ambition you have in achieving what's best for the wider population at large!
Of ocurse that would reduce the £61bn+ surplus that we spend with the EU....0 -
I think you need a cold compress and a darkened roomTOPPING said:
Shouldn't you want every country to optimise its well-being which, inevitably, will involve compromise? Shouldn't everyone? I do.hunchman said:
As a libertarian I don't want any based central command about the number of widgets to produce........that's been and tried many times....and its always worked out so wonderfully as Venezuela currently attests doesn't it?!TOPPING said:
Yes. That's fine. It's changed, it's overreached. It now dictates the maximum number of widgets allowed on a thingummyflip. And you hate that. You would prefer a different maximum number of widgets. I get it. So vote Leave.hunchman said:
We joined the EEC, not as just a free trade common market area instead of a European superstate. The EU project has operated by deceit over so many years now - and sooner or later the lies and deceit catch up - as they are right now.TOPPING said:
Dear god what is it with morons equating the EU, an institution which we begged to join, and about which we are now holding an in/out referendum, with Nazism?hunchman said:
Very simple, Came.TOPPING said:
A failure in exercise of superstate power, surely?hunchman said:
We've all seen how rule by fear worng term. The EU and its ignorance of the lessons of history really is quite staggering.Stark_Dawning said:
Depends if the EU and its governing elites decide to make an example of us, to prevent the exiting contagion spreading. We know how protective they are of their project. A few euros of British holiday wonga is piffling compared to the EU's very survival.BenedictWhite said:
Right, so people from Venuzuela, USA, Canada etc etc can travel visa free to the EU without visas but the EU will want to make it harder to get money from us?Big_G_NorthWales said:
You peopleblackburn63 said:
Leisure movement?plant.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The big issue wEuropenunu said:
The terdam.Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
OK.
"the authorities that be"
just listen to yourself.
But don't give me all this bollocks about sovereignty or freedom0 -
Its not the only example. There have been dozens. It just happens to be one that resonates with the public and so is being highlighted. But don't let simple things like facts get in the way of your wild fantasies.TOPPING said:
It's the only effing example.
And for that you will leave the whole edifice that, for all its imperfections, has delivered unambiguous benefit to the UK these past few decades?
0 -
It's not faux. It'll be the poor that suffer from a Brexit.VapidBilge said:
Considering the number pauperised by cheap Eastern European labour, this faux concern for people's living standards is rich indeed.viewcode said:
You have enough to afford a Brexit. Many do not.SeanT said:Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
0 -
As a Remainiac be sure to read the relevant EU directives and regulations on the matter.viewcode said:
I think I agree with you. I shall light a candle.Luckyguy1983 said:
It's politicians you suspect will act irrationally. People just want to keep their jobs. If that happens, it's really just another strike against the political class. No-one is going to appreciate factory closures because politicians are trying to teach the Brits a lesson.viewcode said:
You're assuming people will act rationally. We have about three/four thousand years of recorded history saying exactly the opposite.chestnut said:£61bn.
The EU trade surplus at risk from pissing the UK off.0 -
Didn't you get the memo from one of the leaders of Remain? Wages will go up if we Brexit. What an awful notion, eh?viewcode said:
It's not faux. It'll be the poor that suffer from a Brexit.VapidBilge said:
Considering the number pauperised by cheap Eastern European labour, this faux concern for people's living standards is rich indeed.viewcode said:
You have enough to afford a Brexit. Many do not.SeanT said:Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
0 -
Would you explain how?viewcode said:
It's not faux. It'll be the poor that suffer from a Brexit.VapidBilge said:
Considering the number pauperised by cheap Eastern European labour, this faux concern for people's living standards is rich indeed.viewcode said:
You have enough to afford a Brexit. Many do not.SeanT said:Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
0 -
Still not willing to answer the points I raised a couple of nights ago about Cameron's non binding negotiation I see. Run off and hide again little man.TOPPING said:
What. A. Moron.
A much-needed reasoned intellectual contribution from Richard.
I think you had perhaps return to your game of Mobile Strike. Much easier to control than real life (although for an utter moron such as yourself, perhaps not without its challenges).
Oh and Gordon Brown from the Queen's Speech response in 1996:
"We dislike and hate VAT on fuel. We will try to reduce it. The Chancellor likes VAT on fuel and wants to extend it. We will seek to cut it to the lowest level possible,"
The only reason it didn't go back to zero is because of EU rules.
That is the message going out to the public and the one they will believe even if you are too dumb to understand it.0 -
Yet more scaremongering from REMAIN!viewcode said:
It's not faux. It'll be the poor that suffer from a Brexit.VapidBilge said:
Considering the number pauperised by cheap Eastern European labour, this faux concern for people's living standards is rich indeed.viewcode said:
You have enough to afford a Brexit. Many do not.SeanT said:Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
0 -
I just want a Europe of free trading nation states in a low tax environment with the emphasis on a highly skilled workforce - that's the optimal arrangement that fits in with the reality of different languages and cultures amongst European nation states. The EU is the complete antithesis of the above.edmundintokyo said:
All compromises are (from your own point of view) sub-optimal by definition. You could decide never to compromise with anyone, but the results of doing that would be... sub-optimal. In reality leaving the EU would involve a bunch of different negotiations resulting in different compromises.hunchman said:
The mask slips - "The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. "
So you've openly admitted that you're prepared to settle for a sub-optimal arrangement. What a miserable lack of ambition you have in achieving what's best for the wider population at large!0 -
Dozens provided on here and ignored by TOPPING as it does not suit their Eurofanatic agenda.Richard_Tyndall said:
Its not the only example. There have been dozens. It just happens to be one that resonates with the public and so is being highlighted. But don't let simple things like facts get in the way of your wild fantasies.TOPPING said:
It's the only effing example.
And for that you will leave the whole edifice that, for all its imperfections, has delivered unambiguous benefit to the UK these past few decades?
0 -
Why? Genuine question.viewcode said:
It's not faux. It'll be the poor that suffer from a Brexit.VapidBilge said:
Considering the number pauperised by cheap Eastern European labour, this faux concern for people's living standards is rich indeed.viewcode said:
You have enough to afford a Brexit. Many do not.SeanT said:Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
0 -
Aside from politics for a minute, really enjoying re-visiting the 96 Euros on BBC1 right now - I was 9!0
-
The EU is trying to lower tariffs (including NTBs) on a large number of goods and services. That is its whole point. On the whole it has been successful.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Why would we want anyone to bend to our will? There are a lot of non-EU countries who want to sell us products at a cheaper rate without the EU taxes that are levied and the other regulatory burdens placed on them. Food from the developing world is one example where we could buy more from them, pay less yet they would receive more £ from us. A win win.TOPPING said:
LIFE is about compromise. So what? You think we will leave the EU and the remaining 162 nations on earth will bend to our will because no one knows how to put on a spectacle like Trooping the Colour as well as we do?hunchman said:
The mask slips - "The EU is a club with some rules we like and some we don't. "TOPPING said:
Moron. Sorry, but if you beMoses_ said:
If you define freedom in that context then quite simply you don't deserve it.TOPPING said:
Does freedom mean:SeanT said:
It is repulsively undemocn.TOPPING said:
Fuck them indeed.SeanT said:
The Spanish economy would collapse without British tourists. What twaddle this is.ReggieCide said:
Does that mean we wouldn't be able to holiday or retire in Spain?Scott_P said:@PolhomeEditor: BREAKING:Spanish president says Brits would lose right to "move freely" in EU after Brexit https://t.co/pQYQIqLOXc https://t.co/GAp0jBUbcL
Fuck Europe. Fuck Remain.
LEAVE
But all of this for what?
What is it that gets your goat so much about our membership of the EU?
.......
LEAVE
a) deciding to have a referendum to leave the EU; or
b) not being allowed to have a referendum to leave the EU.
All this freedom bollox is just embarrassing.
So you've openly admitted that you're prepared to settle for a sub-optimal arrangement. What a miserable lack of ambition you have in achieving what's best for the wider population at large!
Of ocurse that would reduce the £61bn+ surplus that we spend with the EU....
If you think that there is a parallel market for nearly half our exports, then all I can say is that a) there might be; but b) why burn down the edifice we have which is that home for our exports to start again with all the uncertainties that entails?
It simply makes no sense.
Anyway, on that note, I am going to bed.
All you Leavers try to contain yourselves. I know living your lives as slaves to the EU superstate can't be easy, but fear not, freedom is at hand.0 -
Unambiguous? Sorry, that really isn't good enough. Even supporters of federalism should be able to acknowledge that the EU's effect on the fishing industry, food prices, many of our Commonwealth trading relationships and wages for the poorest paid has hardly been positive.TOPPING said:MarkHopkins said:
It's the only effing example.TOPPING said:
made up tinfoil hat hide under the bed bollocks.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
Nope. You want us out of the EU precisely to be able to zero rate VAT on home energy supplies. The Leave campaign have made it the centrepiece of their campaign.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
"As part of our manifesto we pledge to zero rate home energy supplies. This will require us to leave the EU."MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
The Conservative Party raised it, no one has ever mooted zeroave a clue about the details of VAT on home energy supply.MarkHopkins said:TOPPING said:
I really don't think it's that draaving.Cyclefree said:You'd have thought that other EU states would have realised by now that the British don't like being bullied.
Britain has been an escape valve for many EU eourse.
But I'm damned if I'm going to be lectured by the Prime Minister of a country which became democratic barely 5 minutes ago.
If we vote Leave the EU should accept this gracefully not behave like a wronged girlfriend hiding prawns in her ex's curtain rods.
"the ability to reduce VAT on home energy bills, something which no political party has advocated doing for the past 25 years"
Please stop repeating this nonsense. No political party advocates reducing VAT on home energy bills to 0%, because we're not allowed by the EU.
...
Zero-rating cannot be in a UK manifesto, as the EU disallows it.
Simple, eh?
And now you're just being silly.
Why on earth, then, would not any party have happily left the EU in order to enact this policy?
What is UKIP's position on zero-rating home energy supply? They surely are the sincere control for this? Did they want to zero rate VAT on home energy supply? Has it ever been in their manifesto?
No. I want us out of the EU as it is an anti-democratic institution, heading in the wrong direction.
VAT on fuel is one small symptom of this. Focussing on this point does not make your arguments any more cogent.
And for that you will leave the whole edifice that, for all its imperfections, has delivered unambiguous benefit to the UK these past few decades?
0 -
The 'campaign grid' that Boris and Gove seem to have drawn up for the purdah period has been really good so far. I would hazard a guess that they brainstormed 28 things for the 4 week period to set the agenda - the first 4 or 5 have been good including the VAT on fuel line ...... the leave campaign has really got its act together since last Friday, and let Smokin' Joe Frazier burn himself out prior to the purdah period, only to sting like a bee once the purdah period started - in a word masterly.Richard_Tyndall said:
Still not willing to answer the points I raised a couple of nights ago about Cameron's non binding negotiation I see. Run off and hide again little man.TOPPING said:
What. A. Moron.
A much-needed reasoned intellectual contribution from Richard.
I think you had perhaps return to your game of Mobile Strike. Much easier to control than real life (although for an utter moron such as yourself, perhaps not without its challenges).
Oh and Gordon Brown from the Queen's Speech response in 1996:
"We dislike and hate VAT on fuel. We will try to reduce it. The Chancellor likes VAT on fuel and wants to extend it. We will seek to cut it to the lowest level possible,"
The only reason it didn't go back to zero is because of EU rules.
That is the message going out to the public and the one they will believe even if you are too dumb to understand it.0 -
It wont. It'll also be the poor voting for it.viewcode said:
It's not faux. It'll be the poor that suffer from a Brexit.VapidBilge said:
Considering the number pauperised by cheap Eastern European labour, this faux concern for people's living standards is rich indeed.viewcode said:
You have enough to afford a Brexit. Many do not.SeanT said:Enough. Yes leaving the EU will cost us money, but, as I say, in the end, what is money compared to freedom and self respect?
0 -
Well, I've not mentioned an island, although many formulations of the puzzle do, although they are at pains to stress there are no mirrors or anything that could perform the same function.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Surely an island is surrounded by a reflective surface - the sea?RodCrosby said:Re the puzzle on the previous thread.
Instead of iris flaws, I'll change it to "blue eyes", as that is the formulation most commonly found via Google.
If you discover you have blue eyes you must throw yourself off the cliff the next morning.
To simplify, forget the rest of the tribespeople, and consider just those with blue eyes.
If there is just one, he will live happily never knowing he has BE, until the explorer arrives and makes the announcement. "There is at least one person with blue eyes." The blue-eyed individual obviously deduces it is him, as he sees no other, and kills himself the next day.
Now for two BEs. Each knows there is at least one BE, as they can see each other, so the announcement says nothing new - or does it?
Prior, the two BEs would not kill themselves as they could never know they were BE. Afterwards, they both know that they both know there is at least one BE. This is a new order of knowledge. On the first morning, no-one kills themselves. On the second, they both jump off the cliff, as they both realize that since no-one killed themselves the first day, they both must be BEs!
Now for three BEs. Call them X, Y and Z. Prior to the announcement the position is as follows.
X sees two BEs. He knows that Y sees one BE (Z), and Z sees Y. Therefore everyone already knows there is at least one BE.
However, X does not know if Y knows if Z knows there are any BEs. How so? X knows Z can see Y, but if X is non-BE, Y will not know if Z can see any BEs. Since X doesn't know if he, X, is BE, he therefore cannot know if Y knows if Z knows there are any BEs.
The explorer makes his announcement. Now Z definitely knows there are BEs, and Y knows that Z knows, and X knows that Y knows that Z knows... By symmetry, everyone knows that everyone knows that everyone knows there is at least one BE among them...
On the first morning, no-one kills themselves, because everyone already knows, from seeing each other, there are at least two BEs. When no-one kills themselves on the second day, the three tribesmen know they must all leap over the cliff on the third day.
This logic can be extended all the way up for any number of BEs. Call that number n.
The explorer's announcement imparts Common Knowledge that they did not previously have, and also informs everyone that if the n -1 BEs they can see do not kill themselves on the n-1th day, there must in fact be n, and they are the nth!
So everyone goes over the cliff on the nth day...
It's a real brain-hurter of a puzzle!0 -
Richard someone of as small an intellect as you is really not going to prevent me from going to bed, especially when, entertaining as you are in your imbecility, you continue to make fatuous, inane, repetitive, insignificant arguments that small children, if they could tolerate your own childishness, could refute in an instant.Richard_Tyndall said:
Still not willing to answer the points I raised a couple of nights ago about Cameron's non binding negotiation I see. Run off and hide again little man.TOPPING said:
What. A. Moron.
A much-needed reasoned intellectual contribution from Richard.
I think you had perhaps return to your game of Mobile Strike. Much easier to control than real life (although for an utter moron such as yourself, perhaps not without its challenges).
Oh and Gordon Brown from the Queen's Speech response in 1996:
"We dislike and hate VAT on fuel. We will try to reduce it. The Chancellor likes VAT on fuel and wants to extend it. We will seek to cut it to the lowest level possible,"
The only reason it didn't go back to zero is because of EU rules.
That is the message going out to the public and the one they will believe even if you are too dumb to understand it.
I'm not sure what you think of yourself when you look in the mirror each morning, but it can't be easy, so bon chance and bon nuit.0 -
I was 20, still at Uni.Mortimer said:Aside from politics for a minute, really enjoying re-visiting the 96 Euros on BBC1 right now - I was 9!
We actually beat a team on penalties (Spain, in the quarter-final).0 -
Topping just has to work for the EU in some capacity.
No one can be that much of a brainwashed fanatic without doing so?0
