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And this is why leave will lose. The honesty of your answer and also it's accuracy blows Penny Mordaunt out of the water and again shows how leave are in chaos, but that was to be expected when there are so many competing visions within leave, thereby diluting the credibility of the proposition to leave the EUrcs1000 said:
I'm a Leaver (as is Richard Tyndall), and we will both say that there is no realistic possibility than Turkey will join the EU given: (a) the French requirement to have a referendum, (b) Greece and Cyprus, and (c) that Turkey will not meet any of the accession criteria.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Suddenly to REMAIN a junior minister's words matter more than the head of the UK govt.....AlastairMeeks said:
I ask simply for an acknowledgement from Leavers that Penny Mordaunt lied. The absurd contortions offered to suggest that she spoke to some form of deeper truth merely indicate the extreme silliness of so many Leavers.initforthemoney said:
So presumably the logic of each and every remainer must be the same as that of John McDonnell and Michael Heseltine at the same time because there must be only one remain groupthink? Or perhaps you only prescribe such a ludicrous standard for leavers.AlastairMeeks said:I'm losing track, are Leavers claiming that Britain doesn't have a veto because, despite the plain words, Britain would never exercise a veto (though it has and recently)? Or is their claim that it doesn't have a veto because no one who would ever get to hold the office of Prime Minister would ever in practice oppose Turkey's membership because David Cameron has previously supported it as a long term goal?
Leaver logic gets steadily more elusive.
Q: Will the British people have a veto on Turkey joining?
A: Highly unlikely so that is a No (the french people will have).
Q: Is it Cameron's policy and the Govt's stated policy, that Turkey should join at earliest possible time and that by implication the Govt would not exercise a veto?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Cameron sign up to a statement 9 weeks ago that the accession arrangements for Turkey becoming an EU member should be accelerated?
A: Yes.
Q: Should we believe what Cameron and the Government tells us?
A: REMAIN seem to say yes if it suits them and no if it does not suit them.....0 -
It hardly surprising that a descendant of a Turkish Minister has a more positive view of Turkey than the rest of the Leave campaign, is it?Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
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It is not England that is speaking it is the United Kingdomrottenborough said:
I do hope Remain's HQ isn't as complacent as this.Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
As Chesterton wrote:
"For we are the people of England, that never have spoken yet."0 -
The comparison with Indyref is interesting.Big_G_NorthWales said:And this is why leave will lose. The honesty of your answer and also it's accuracy blows Penny Mordaunt out of the water and again shows how leave are in chaos, but that was to be expected when there are so many competing visions within leave, thereby diluting the credibility of the proposition to leave the EU
The SNP case was at least as bogus as the Brexiteers, but their relentless message discipline meant that at least their spokespeople mouthed the same bollocks at all times in every interview.0 -
That seems a reasonable view, but it is not what the official position of the Govt is. Maybe the EU is so stupid that it does accede to Turkey and somehow persuades the French that a bit Turkish migration is better than "the hordes". It is all wrapped up in an emergency deal over migrants. After all Merkel suddenly opened the German doors to 1 million young men...rcs1000 said:
I'm a Leaver (as is Richard Tyndall), and we will both say that there is no realistic possibility than Turkey will join the EU given: (a) the French requirement to have a referendum, (b) Greece and Cyprus, and (c) that Turkey will not meet any of the accession criteria.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Suddenly to REMAIN a junior minister's words matter more than the head of the UK govt.....AlastairMeeks said:
I ask simply for an acknowledgement from Leavers that Penny Mordaunt lied. The absurd contortions offered to suggest that she spoke to some form of deeper truth merely indicate the extreme silliness of so many Leavers.initforthemoney said:
So presumably the logic of each and every remainer must be the same as that of John McDonnell and Michael Heseltine at the same time because there must be only one remain groupthink? Or perhaps you only prescribe such a ludicrous standard for leavers.AlastairMeeks said:I'm losing track, are Leavers claiming that Britain doesn't have a veto because, despite the plain words, Britain would never exercise a veto (though it has and recently)? Or is their claim that it doesn't have a veto because no one who would ever get to hold the office of Prime Minister would ever in practice oppose Turkey's membership because David Cameron has previously supported it as a long term goal?
Leaver logic gets steadily more elusive.
Q: Will the British people have a veto on Turkey joining?
A: Highly unlikely so that is a No (the french people will have).
Q: Is it Cameron's policy and the Govt's stated policy, that Turkey should join at earliest possible time and that by implication the Govt would not exercise a veto?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Cameron sign up to a statement 9 weeks ago that the accession arrangements for Turkey becoming an EU member should be accelerated?
A: Yes.
Q: Should we believe what Cameron and the Government tells us?
A: REMAIN seem to say yes if it suits them and no if it does not suit them.....
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Well quite, but he is the leading light for leave who have decided today to make a complete hash of the Turkey accession argumentVapidBilge said:
It hardly surprising that a descendant of a Turkish Minister has a more positive view of Turkey than the rest of the Leave campaign, is it?Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
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Ht to whoever coined re-twat; it has a nail-on-the head quality to it.Scott_P said:
Look up re-tweet. Please. Just ONE of my fans using the correct terminology would be remarkable.VapidBilge said:Well, judging by your re-tweets, you don't seem use judgement at all.
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Is it that simple ?rcs1000 said:
It's not only that. Those Eastern European countries that "turned West" and joined the EU have become (relatively) wealthy. (I would point to the Baltic states and most of Eastern Europe.) Those that turned East, sticking inside Russia's orbit in return for cheap natural gas, have not fared so well.daodao said:The increased tension in the territories of the former USSR such as the Ukraine is due to the aggressive approach of the EU in its Drang nach Osten.
If you were a well educated Ukrainian, would you rather your country was more like Estonia or more like Russia?
If I were a western Ukrainian and therefore a Ukrainian by culture obviuosly the West. If an Easterner and therefore more likely an ethnic russian the choice might not be so clear cut.
I think the bind the West is in is supporting badly drawn borders rather than telling Ukraine to clear the decks first with a plebiscite and then have 100% support from us.
The Crimea was given to the Ukraine as a gift over the heads of its people by Stalin. It's not worth a body bag to hand it back.0 -
Dr. Foxinsox, that's a separate issue, as diversity is a concept rather than a group of people.
There was a good TED lecture, someone here posted it, I think, about the left generally liking diversity and the right generally preferring what they know.
Diversity can add new perspectives, but it can also fray common values and social cohesion. It's neither good nor bad in and of itself.0 -
And up pops Divot, who deserves a twat.Theuniondivvie said:Ht
How is your favourite blogger doing these days? You haven't boasted about his Alexa scores recently...
https://twitter.com/johnboy6125/status/734019233286356992
Oh.0 -
If the PM says he wants Turkey to join quickly, he has effectively given up his veto. It is arguable that "my word is my bond" applies!Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
It is the same as if a PM said he could not envisage campaigning to leave some group and then started negotiations to get better terms for staying in. In such circumstances the others would give very little ground to the PM as his negotiating position had been fatally undermined. Ring a bell?
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Oh yes you did.Scott_P said:
Look up re-tweet. Please. Just ONE of my fans using the correct terminology would be remarkable.VapidBilge said:Well, judging by your re-tweets, you don't seem use judgement at all.
If you read my post, you would see that I discussed Brexiteers wailing about appeals to authority. I made no such claim.VapidBilge said:you seem to think that questioning that authority at all is wrong.
Thus expressly stating that YOU DON'T.Scott_P said:
Ask a Brexiteer.VapidBilge said:Don't the 5 Presidents speak with authority on the EU?
They are the ones who pass judgement on authority
And your point about re-tweeting? Would you prefer 'posting a tweet'? Does anyone else care? And how different is posting a tweet on a public forum from re-tweeting?0 -
I agree with the theory that we have limited processing capacity and fall back on "prejudices". I think we do it all the time. Whenever I step into any lift I have a justified prejudice that it is well designed and well maintained and will not plummet to the ground. I don't examine the evidence for that particular lift, even though my life is at stake.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Money, when I was at university there were some interesting theories about racism, one of which revolved around a computer-style approach. It suggested people have a limited processing capacity, and that while we have detailed 'folders' for individuals to whom we're close, acquaintances get a few bulletpoints, and whole groups just get categorised as stereotypes that are all the same.
I do wonder if a similar thing happens in politics. Not only with this referendum (and the Scottish one) but when people look at the left and see people who are brainless, or the right and see people who are heartless.
The odd language by some (Alan Johnson's 'extremists' and Cameron suggesting the leader of ISIS would smile if Leave won) does seem indicative of considering the other side to be fearful oiks who are either vile bigots or who don't understand how the world works.
There is nothing wrong with prejudices. They are essential. The issue is whether a particular prejudice is justified by past experience. I have political prejudices which have strengthened over the years thanks to PB!0 -
I'd heard a similar idea which was labelled as the monkeysphere (admittedly I saw it on a comedy website) - that we are not set up to be able to think about and care about all of humanity in detail, as individuals, that's why we form tribes and nations, enabling us to extend the sphere of our care, to include more than just those we can actually know. And once you go beyond tribe or small nation, the connections become ever smaller, the emotional connection less intense, not because people are bad, but because it's not possible to treat everyone the same.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Money, when I was at university there were some interesting theories about racism, one of which revolved around a computer-style approach. It suggested people have a limited processing capacity, and that while we have detailed 'folders' for individuals to whom we're close, acquaintances get a few bulletpoints, and whole groups just get categorised as stereotypes that are all the same.
I suppose its the same as the old newspaper headline idea of 1 dead briton being worth more than 10 dead frenchmen or 100 dead people elsewhere.0 -
That's why Merrkel is doing under the table deals to give de facto membershipBig_G_NorthWales said:
And this is why leave will lose. The honesty of your answer and also it's accuracy blows Penny Mordaunt out of the water and again shows how leave are in chaos, but that was to be expected when there are so many competing visions within leave, thereby diluting the credibility of the proposition to leave the EUrcs1000 said:
I'm a Leaver (as is Richard Tyndall), and we will both say that there is no realistic possibility than Turkey will join the EU given: (a) the French requirement to have a referendum, (b) Greece and Cyprus, and (c) that Turkey will not meet any of the accession criteria.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Suddenly to REMAIN a junior minister's words matter more than the head of the UK govt.....AlastairMeeks said:
I ask simply for an acknowledgement from Leavers that Penny Mordaunt lied. The absurd contortions offered to suggest that she spoke to some form of deeper truth merely indicate the extreme silliness of so many Leavers.initforthemoney said:
So presumably the logic of each and every remainer must be the same as that of John McDonnell and Michael Heseltine at the same time because there must be only one remain groupthink? Or perhaps you only prescribe such a ludicrous standard for leavers.AlastairMeeks said:I'm losing track, are Leavers claiming that Britain doesn't have a veto because, despite the plain words, Britain would never exercise a veto (though it has and recently)? Or is their claim that it doesn't have a veto because no one who would ever get to hold the office of Prime Minister would ever in practice oppose Turkey's membership because David Cameron has previously supported it as a long term goal?
Leaver logic gets steadily more elusive.
Q: Will the British people have a veto on Turkey joining?
A: Highly unlikely so that is a No (the french people will have).
Q: Is it Cameron's policy and the Govt's stated policy, that Turkey should join at earliest possible time and that by implication the Govt would not exercise a veto?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Cameron sign up to a statement 9 weeks ago that the accession arrangements for Turkey becoming an EU member should be accelerated?
A: Yes.
Q: Should we believe what Cameron and the Government tells us?
A: REMAIN seem to say yes if it suits them and no if it does not suit them.....
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If you don't understand the difference that explains quite a lotVapidBilge said:And how different is posting a tweet on a public forum from re-tweeting?
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Already happened in America. (Except there are TWO left-wing nutjobs)OldKingCole said:
Could happen in France!rcs1000 said:
The Austrians have been given two bloody awful choices: one a right wing nutjob, and the other a left wing nutjob.MonikerDiCanio said:
Far Right lolMorris_Dancer said:Austria: projected results expected shortly after polls close (3pm our time, I think):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36351359
Postal votes only counted tomorrow, though.
When is the BBC going to start labeling Labour " Far Left "?0 -
It is not going to happen in years and even then there is a 7 year transition period. Furthermore David Cameron will have retired long before it is even an issue. Leave have today lost the Turkey argumentTCPoliticalBetting said:
If the PM says he wants Turkey to join quickly, he has effectively given up his veto. It is arguable that "my word is my bond" applies!Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
It is the same as if a PM said he could not envisage campaigning to leave some group and then started negotiations to get better terms for staying in. In such circumstances the others would give very little ground to the PM as his negotiating position had been fatally undermined. Ring a bell?0 -
I think Hattie will need a stiff drink after that performance.0
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Yes; but the Turkish Accession Treaty, between the 28 members of the EU, the EU itself, and Turkey (which would be required for Turkey to join the EU) does not happen until all the accession criteria have been met. That - even in the "world's most accelerated process" - would not happen until 2026.TCPoliticalBetting said:
That seems a reasonable view, but it is not what the official position of the Govt is. Maybe the EU is so stupid that it does accede to Turkey and somehow persuades the French that a bit Turkish migration is better than "the hordes". It is all wrapped up in an emergency deal over migrants. After all Merkel suddenly opened the German doors to 1 million young men...
At which point the government of the day, in the UK, must decide whether there are more voted to be had by signing the treaty, or more votes to be had by not signing it.
David Cameron's speeches of 2016 may have an influence on the UK government in 2026. But I'm doubtful.0 -
But we had 35 minutes for two Labour REMAINERs. Followed later with 3 mins for Kwarsi the Conservative LEAVEr. BBC idea of balance?FrancisUrquhart said:
Talking of unimpressive. Labourite Pienaar had Eddie Izzard and Andy Pandy on this morning, both were utter crap-ola. Eddie should stick to the funnies, but we are going to have the pleasure of him in politics full time in 4 years time (apparently) and Flippty Floppty was repeating his nonsense about Northern kids bullying people who have aspiration and totally unconvincing about his reasons for wanting to become Mayor of Manchester.TCPoliticalBetting said:CBI Head Caroline, was distinctly unimpressive on Sunday Politics show.
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Taking wishful thinking to a new level.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not going to happen in years and even then there is a 7 year transition period. Furthermore David Cameron will have retired long before it is even an issue. Leave have today lost the Turkey argumentTCPoliticalBetting said:
If the PM says he wants Turkey to join quickly, he has effectively given up his veto. It is arguable that "my word is my bond" applies!Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
It is the same as if a PM said he could not envisage campaigning to leave some group and then started negotiations to get better terms for staying in. In such circumstances the others would give very little ground to the PM as his negotiating position had been fatally undermined. Ring a bell?
Which version of Remain are you offering up? Cameron's? Corbyn's? Juncker's?
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Whatever Merkel is trying to do and what Turkey may or may not agree to is not membership of the EU - Turkey's membership is years away if ever.Today's project fear by leave has singularly failed and been shown to have no creditabilityBlue_rog said:
That's why Merrkel is doing under the table deals to give de facto membershipBig_G_NorthWales said:
And this is why leave will lose. The honesty of your answer and also it's accuracy blows Penny Mordaunt out of the water and again shows how leave are in chaos, but that was to be expected when there are so many competing visions within leave, thereby diluting the credibility of the proposition to leave the EUrcs1000 said:
I'm a Leaver (as is Richard Tyndall), and we will both say that there is no realistic possibility than Turkey will join the EU given: (a) the French requirement to have a referendum, (b) Greece and Cyprus, and (c) that Turkey will not meet any of the accession criteria.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Suddenly to REMAIN a junior minister's words matter more than the head of the UK govt.....AlastairMeeks said:
I ask simply for an acknowledgement from Leavers that Penny Mordaunt lied. The absurd contortions offered to suggest that she spoke to some form of deeper truth merely indicate the extreme silliness of so many Leavers.initforthemoney said:
So presumably the logic of each and every remainer must be the same as that of John McDonnell and Michael Heseltine at the same time because there must be only one remain groupthink? Or perhaps you only prescribe such a ludicrous standard for leavers.AlastairMeeks said:I'm losing track, are Leavers claiming that Britain doesn't have a veto because, despite the plain words, Britain would never exercise a veto (though it has and recently)? Or is their claim that it doesn't have a veto because no one who would ever get to hold the office of Prime Minister would ever in practice oppose Turkey's membership because David Cameron has previously supported it as a long term goal?
Leaver logic gets steadily more elusive.
Q: Will the British people have a veto on Turkey joining?
A: Highly unlikely so that is a No (the french people will have).
Q: Is it Cameron's policy and the Govt's stated policy, that Turkey should join at earliest possible time and that by implication the Govt would not exercise a veto?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Cameron sign up to a statement 9 weeks ago that the accession arrangements for Turkey becoming an EU member should be accelerated?
A: Yes.
Q: Should we believe what Cameron and the Government tells us?
A: REMAIN seem to say yes if it suits them and no if it does not suit them.....0 -
I don’t believe a word Cameron says.chestnut said:
Taking wishful thinking to a new level.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not going to happen in years and even then there is a 7 year transition period. Furthermore David Cameron will have retired long before it is even an issue. Leave have today lost the Turkey argumentTCPoliticalBetting said:
If the PM says he wants Turkey to join quickly, he has effectively given up his veto. It is arguable that "my word is my bond" applies!Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
It is the same as if a PM said he could not envisage campaigning to leave some group and then started negotiations to get better terms for staying in. In such circumstances the others would give very little ground to the PM as his negotiating position had been fatally undermined. Ring a bell?
Which version of Remain are you offering up? Cameron's? Corbyn's? Juncker's?
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Good re-twat.Scott_P said:
And up pops Divot, who deserves a twat.Theuniondivvie said:Ht
How is your favourite blogger doing these days? You haven't boasted about his Alexa scores recently...
https://twitter.com/johnboy6125/status/734019233286356992
Oh.
Unlike Wings' Yoon fanboys I don't monitor his ratings on a regular basis, however...
Failing Nat blog
Global rank 85,212
Rank in United Kingdom 3,545
'Britain's most read political blog'
Global rank 239,298
Rank in United Kingdom 9,315
Oh.0 -
We are stocked up on vegetable peelers, we will meet them on the beachesJackW said:
You won't be laughing when Putin orders giant turnips to invade Ayrshire. The Soviet Union root vegetable spetsnaz is coming to get you.malcolmg said:UK is scared of shadows, bogey men everywhere. Putin must have a great laugh at the state of the UK.
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But, presumably, his speeches will have some influence over the referendum and it's aftermath, which would render irrelevant any discussion about Turkey joining an organisation we were no longer a member of.rcs1000 said:
Yes; but the Turkish Accession Treaty, between the 28 members of the EU, the EU itself, and Turkey (which would be required for Turkey to join the EU) does not happen until all the accession criteria have been met. That - even in the "world's most accelerated process" - would not happen until 2026.TCPoliticalBetting said:
That seems a reasonable view, but it is not what the official position of the Govt is. Maybe the EU is so stupid that it does accede to Turkey and somehow persuades the French that a bit Turkish migration is better than "the hordes". It is all wrapped up in an emergency deal over migrants. After all Merkel suddenly opened the German doors to 1 million young men...
At which point the government of the day, in the UK, must decide whether there are more voted to be had by signing the treaty, or more votes to be had by not signing it.
David Cameron's speeches of 2016 may have an influence on the UK government in 2026. But I'm doubtful.0 -
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.
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Huh? All those refugees from Turkey coming into the EU and you're prattling over the technical form of free movement? Money hasn't even been mentioned in relation to Turkey.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Whatever Merkel is trying to do and what Turkey may or may not agree to is not membership of the EU - Turkey's membership is years away if ever.Today's project fear by leave has singularly failed and been shown to have no creditability
You have noticed that the emphasis of Leave has moved to immigration, haven't you?0 -
I am sure they will say they think they got it about right ;-)TCPoliticalBetting said:
But we had 35 minutes for two Labour REMAINERs. Followed later with 3 mins for Kwarsi the Conservative LEAVEr. BBC idea of balance?FrancisUrquhart said:
Talking of unimpressive. Labourite Pienaar had Eddie Izzard and Andy Pandy on this morning, both were utter crap-ola. Eddie should stick to the funnies, but we are going to have the pleasure of him in politics full time in 4 years time (apparently) and Flippty Floppty was repeating his nonsense about Northern kids bullying people who have aspiration and totally unconvincing about his reasons for wanting to become Mayor of Manchester.TCPoliticalBetting said:CBI Head Caroline, was distinctly unimpressive on Sunday Politics show.
It was pathetic though. Pienaar even said at one point ok enough of the Labour PPB...Pienaar softballing Izzard and Burnham and they were still useless.0 -
A twat to rival our site specialist's selective input:Theuniondivvie said:
Good re-twat.Scott_P said:
And up pops Divot, who deserves a twat.Theuniondivvie said:Ht
How is your favourite blogger doing these days? You haven't boasted about his Alexa scores recently...
https://twitter.com/johnboy6125/status/734019233286356992
Oh.
Unlike Wings' Yoon fanboys I don't monitor his ratings on a regular basis, however...
Failing Nat blog
Global rank 85,212
Rank in United Kingdom 3,545
'Britain's most read political blog'
Global rank 239,298
Rank in United Kingdom 9,315
Oh.
Wings Over Scotland @WingsScotland 3h3 hours ago
@GAPonsonby @NewsnetScotland Our "decreasing readership" is 50,000 up on last year and May so far is already higher than all of April..
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PB Europhiles will have us believe the status quo is possible. I don't know if they are being deliberately deceitful or just incredibly naive.chestnut said:
Taking wishful thinking to a new level.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not going to happen in years and even then there is a 7 year transition period. Furthermore David Cameron will have retired long before it is even an issue. Leave have today lost the Turkey argumentTCPoliticalBetting said:
If the PM says he wants Turkey to join quickly, he has effectively given up his veto. It is arguable that "my word is my bond" applies!Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
It is the same as if a PM said he could not envisage campaigning to leave some group and then started negotiations to get better terms for staying in. In such circumstances the others would give very little ground to the PM as his negotiating position had been fatally undermined. Ring a bell?
Which version of Remain are you offering up? Cameron's? Corbyn's? Juncker's?0 -
It was an absolute car crash. It confirms to me that there are many on the Remain side (mostly Labour) who haven't thought through what this EU thing is all about. She appeared to not understand what trade tariffs are and didn't have a clue who the key men of the EU are. Remain need to lock her up and not let her out until June 24.SandyRentool said:I think Hattie will need a stiff drink after that performance.
0 -
Yes but if the UK votes strongly to Remain in the EU ie 60%+ many in the EU may see that as suggesting the UK does want to be 'at the heart of Europe' and may push the Euro issue againrcs1000 said:
I don't see either (a) how the EU could even attempt to get us to join the Eurozone, or (b) why they would want to.HYUFD said:
There are 3 potential outcomes from the referendum.Plato_Says said:Great piece for Remainers to consider - what do they really want? Believe they can vote for a status quo that isn't on the ballot paper - or that they want More EU? Only the latter is on offer.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/focus/stop-traipsing-down-the-up-escalator-leaving-would-let-britain-grow-7zxg9tvl2
1. Leave win and we leave the EU.
2. Remain win narrowly with 50 to 55%, UKIP rise in the polls and push for another vote and the electorate have clearly backed the status quo only and with Cameron's supposed reforms
3. Remain win by close to 60%+ and the EU may start pressing for further UK integration, maybe even the Euro if polls start to shift there too and will see the British electorate as having given a wholehearted endorsement of the EU project
Even if it were in their power to force us (which it is not), given the problems they have holding it together currenrtly, then the last thing they would want is a country in the Eurozone who didn't want to be there.0 -
I believe the UK is better at the table in an EU that is facing enormous change and that quite simply leave have failed to make any case to justify the economic and security risks that a leap in the dark would involve.chestnut said:
Taking wishful thinking to a new level.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not going to happen in years and even then there is a 7 year transition period. Furthermore David Cameron will have retired long before it is even an issue. Leave have today lost the Turkey argumentTCPoliticalBetting said:
If the PM says he wants Turkey to join quickly, he has effectively given up his veto. It is arguable that "my word is my bond" applies!Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
It is the same as if a PM said he could not envisage campaigning to leave some group and then started negotiations to get better terms for staying in. In such circumstances the others would give very little ground to the PM as his negotiating position had been fatally undermined. Ring a bell?
Which version of Remain are you offering up? Cameron's? Corbyn's? Juncker's?0 -
Credibility? Is that the same as the official UK government forecast of 20,000 more people from Poland etc countries that turned into >1 million? You seem to trust the UK Government on an issue that they have spectacularly failed.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Whatever Merkel is trying to do and what Turkey may or may not agree to is not membership of the EU - Turkey's membership is years away if ever.Today's project fear by leave has singularly failed and been shown to have no creditabilityBlue_rog said:
That's why Merrkel is doing under the table deals to give de facto membershipBig_G_NorthWales said:
And this is why leave will lose. The honesty of your answer and also it's accuracy blows Penny Mordaunt out of the water and again shows how leave are in chaos, but that was to be expected when there are so many competing visions within leave, thereby diluting the credibility of the proposition to leave the EUrcs1000 said:
I'm a Leaver (as is Richard Tyndall), and we will both say that there is no realistic possibility than Turkey will join the EU given: (a) the French requirement to have a referendum, (b) Greece and Cyprus, and (c) that Turkey will not meet any of the accession criteria.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Suddenly to REMAIN a junior minister's words matter more than the head of the UK govt.....AlastairMeeks said:
I ask simply for an acknowledgement from Leavers that Penny Mordaunt lied. The absurd contortions offered to suggest that she spoke to some form of deeper truth merely indicate the extreme silliness of so many Leavers.initforthemoney said:
So presumably the logic of each and every remainer must be the same as that of John McDonnell and Michael Heseltine at the same time because there must be only one remain groupthink? Or perhaps you only prescribe such a ludicrous standard for leavers.AlastairMeeks said:I'm losing track, are Leavers claiming that Britain doesn't have a veto because...
Q: Will the British people have a veto on Turkey joining?
A: Highly unlikely so that is a No (the french people will have).
Q: Is it Cameron's policy and the Govt's stated policy, that Turkey should join at earliest possible time and that by implication the Govt would not exercise a veto?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Cameron sign up to a statement 9 weeks ago that the accession arrangements for Turkey becoming an EU member should be accelerated?
A: Yes.
Q: Should we believe what Cameron and the Government tells us?
A: REMAIN seem to say yes if it suits them and no if it does not suit them.....
0 -
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.0 -
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.
0 -
Game set and match to remainVapidBilge said:
Huh? All those refugees from Turkey coming into the EU and you're prattling over the technical form of free movement? Money hasn't even been mentioned in relation to Turkey.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Whatever Merkel is trying to do and what Turkey may or may not agree to is not membership of the EU - Turkey's membership is years away if ever.Today's project fear by leave has singularly failed and been shown to have no creditability
You have noticed that the emphasis of Leave has moved to immigration, haven't you?0 -
If Sarkozy is the candidate all the polls suggest Marine Le Pen will come first, Sarkozy could even come third, especially if Valls or Macron ends up the PS candidatercs1000 said:
Theoretically possible, but all the polls from France have the PS a long way behind Les Republicans in third place. If Juppe is the candidate for LR, then it's highly likely he'll be leading by a fair margin even in the first round.OldKingCole said:
Could happen in France!rcs1000 said:
The Austrians have been given two bloody awful choices: one a right wing nutjob, and the other a left wing nutjob.MonikerDiCanio said:
Far Right lolMorris_Dancer said:Austria: projected results expected shortly after polls close (3pm our time, I think):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36351359
Postal votes only counted tomorrow, though.
When is the BBC going to start labeling Labour " Far Left "?0 -
She was her usual self. Surprised that the "wonderful EU" that she supported was headed up by men.... Quite funny.tlg86 said:
It was an absolute car crash. It confirms to me that there are many on the Remain side (mostly Labour) who haven't thought through what this EU thing is all about. She appeared to not understand what trade tariffs are and didn't have a clue who the key men of the EU are. Remain need to lock her up and not let her out until June 24.SandyRentool said:I think Hattie will need a stiff drink after that performance.
0 -
A mixture of both.MP_SE said:
PB Europhiles will have us believe the status quo is possible. I don't know if they are being deliberately deceitful or just incredibly naive.chestnut said:
Taking wishful thinking to a new level.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not going to happen in years and even then there is a 7 year transition period. Furthermore David Cameron will have retired long before it is even an issue. Leave have today lost the Turkey argumentTCPoliticalBetting said:
If the PM says he wants Turkey to join quickly, he has effectively given up his veto. It is arguable that "my word is my bond" applies!Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
It is the same as if a PM said he could not envisage campaigning to leave some group and then started negotiations to get better terms for staying in. In such circumstances the others would give very little ground to the PM as his negotiating position had been fatally undermined. Ring a bell?
Which version of Remain are you offering up? Cameron's? Corbyn's? Juncker's?
0 -
Evidence for that statement please.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.0 -
Which version of Remain are you offering up? Cameron's? Corbyn's? Juncker's?Big_G_NorthWales said:
I believe the UK is better at the table in an EU that is facing enormous change and that quite simply leave have failed to make any case to justify the economic and security risks that a leap in the dark would involve.chestnut said:
Taking wishful thinking to a new level.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not going to happen in years and even then there is a 7 year transition period. Furthermore David Cameron will have retired long before it is even an issue. Leave have today lost the Turkey argumentTCPoliticalBetting said:
If the PM says he wants Turkey to join quickly, he has effectively given up his veto. It is arguable that "my word is my bond" applies!Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
It is the same as if a PM said he could not envisage campaigning to leave some group and then started negotiations to get better terms for staying in. In such circumstances the others would give very little ground to the PM as his negotiating position had been fatally undermined. Ring a bell?
Which version of Remain are you offering up? Cameron's? Corbyn's? Juncker's?
0 -
I wonder why Labour thought that Pienaar would be on their side, so they tried to hire him to work for Ed Miliband?FrancisUrquhart said:
I am sure they will say they think they got it about right ;-)TCPoliticalBetting said:
But we had 35 minutes for two Labour REMAINERs. Followed later with 3 mins for Kwarsi the Conservative LEAVEr. BBC idea of balance?FrancisUrquhart said:
Talking of unimpressive. Labourite Pienaar had Eddie Izzard and Andy Pandy on this morning, both were utter crap-ola. Eddie should stick to the funnies, but we are going to have the pleasure of him in politics full time in 4 years time (apparently) and Flippty Floppty was repeating his nonsense about Northern kids bullying people who have aspiration and totally unconvincing about his reasons for wanting to become Mayor of Manchester.TCPoliticalBetting said:CBI Head Caroline, was distinctly unimpressive on Sunday Politics show.
It was pathetic though. Pienaar even said at one point ok enough of the Labour PPB...Pienaar softballing Izzard and Burnham and they were still useless.
0 -
The EU is facing enormous problems, mainly brought about as a result of the eurozone. You mention having a seat at the top table. The UK is excluded from Eurogroup meetings as they have not adopted the Euro...Big_G_NorthWales said:
I believe the UK is better at the table in an EU that is facing enormous change and that quite simply leave have failed to make any case to justify the economic and security risks that a leap in the dark would involve.chestnut said:
Taking wishful thinking to a new level.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not going to happen in years and even then there is a 7 year transition period. Furthermore David Cameron will have retired long before it is even an issue. Leave have today lost the Turkey argumentTCPoliticalBetting said:
If the PM says he wants Turkey to join quickly, he has effectively given up his veto. It is arguable that "my word is my bond" applies!Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
It is the same as if a PM said he could not envisage campaigning to leave some group and then started negotiations to get better terms for staying in. In such circumstances the others would give very little ground to the PM as his negotiating position had been fatally undermined. Ring a bell?
Which version of Remain are you offering up? Cameron's? Corbyn's? Juncker's?0 -
Is it entertaining enough to watch?tlg86 said:
It was an absolute car crash. It confirms to me that there are many on the Remain side (mostly Labour) who haven't thought through what this EU thing is all about. She appeared to not understand what trade tariffs are and didn't have a clue who the key men of the EU are. Remain need to lock her up and not let her out until June 24.SandyRentool said:I think Hattie will need a stiff drink after that performance.
0 -
One of the best moments of the campaign so far. "You mean, as a feminist I'm on the wrong side of the argument?" It was a shame that none of the panellists pointed out that May is playing the game of keeping her head down to assist with her ambitions of becoming the next PM.TCPoliticalBetting said:
She was her usual self. Surprised that the "wonderful EU" that she supported was headed up by men.... Quite funny.tlg86 said:
It was an absolute car crash. It confirms to me that there are many on the Remain side (mostly Labour) who haven't thought through what this EU thing is all about. She appeared to not understand what trade tariffs are and didn't have a clue who the key men of the EU are. Remain need to lock her up and not let her out until June 24.SandyRentool said:I think Hattie will need a stiff drink after that performance.
Definitely!Plato_Says said:Is it entertaining enough to watch?
0 -
Last time I looked the EU comprised 28 Countries and that we are one of the 28, therefore that is a seat at the top table as far as I am concernedMP_SE said:
The EU is facing enormous problems, mainly brought about as a result of the eurozone. You mention having a seat at the top table. The UK is excluded from Eurogroup meetings as they have not adopted the Euro...Big_G_NorthWales said:
I believe the UK is better at the table in an EU that is facing enormous change and that quite simply leave have failed to make any case to justify the economic and security risks that a leap in the dark would involve.chestnut said:
Taking wishful thinking to a new level.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not going to happen in years and even then there is a 7 year transition period. Furthermore David Cameron will have retired long before it is even an issue. Leave have today lost the Turkey argumentTCPoliticalBetting said:
If the PM says he wants Turkey to join quickly, he has effectively given up his veto. It is arguable that "my word is my bond" applies!Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
It is the same as if a PM said he could not envisage campaigning to leave some group and then started negotiations to get better terms for staying in. In such circumstances the others would give very little ground to the PM as his negotiating position had been fatally undermined. Ring a bell?
Which version of Remain are you offering up? Cameron's? Corbyn's? Juncker's?0 -
Depends how you define the question.Big_G_NorthWales said:
And this is why leave will lose. The honesty of your answer and also it's accuracy blows Penny Mordaunt out of the water and again shows how leave are in chaos, but that was to be expected when there are so many competing visions within leave, thereby diluting the credibility of the proposition to leave the EUrcs1000 said:
I'm a Leaver (as is Richard Tyndall), and we will both say that there is no realistic possibility than Turkey will join the EU given: (a) the French requirement to have a referendum, (b) Greece and Cyprus, and (c) that Turkey will not meet any of the accession criteria.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Suddenly to REMAIN a junior minister's words matter more than the head of the UK govt.....AlastairMeeks said:
I ask simply for an acknowledgement from Leavers that Penny Mordaunt lied. The absurd contortions offered to suggest that she spoke to some form of deeper truth merely indicate the extreme silliness of so many Leavers.initforthemoney said:
So presumably the logic of each and every remainer must be the same as that of John McDonnell and Michael Heseltine at the same time because there must be only one remain groupthink? Or perhaps you only prescribe such a ludicrous standard for leavers.AlastairMeeks said:I'm losing track, are Leavers claiming that Britain doesn't have a veto because, despite the plain words, Britain would never exercise a veto (though it has and recently)? Or is their claim that it doesn't have a veto because no one who would ever get to hold the office of Prime Minister would ever in practice oppose Turkey's membership because David Cameron has previously supported it as a long term goal?
Leaver logic gets steadily more elusive.
Q: Will the British people have a veto on Turkey joining?
A: Highly unlikely so that is a No (the french people will have).
Q: Is it Cameron's policy and the Govt's stated policy, that Turkey should join at earliest possible time and that by implication the Govt would not exercise a veto?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Cameron sign up to a statement 9 weeks ago that the accession arrangements for Turkey becoming an EU member should be accelerated?
A: Yes.
Q: Should we believe what Cameron and the Government tells us?
A: REMAIN seem to say yes if it suits them and no if it does not suit them.....
Do we (the British electorate who are voting next month) have a veto? No we do not.
Does the British government with a stated policy of accepting Turkey as soon as possible have a veto? Yes.
Is this the last chance we (as the British electorate) have to stop Turkish membership? Almost certainly yes.0 -
It is the MPs who will actually decide who the final 2 are, if Remain win a Leave candidate may not be put to the members. It could be Osborne v a sceptical Remainer like Hammond or MayTCPoliticalBetting said:
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.0 -
Do we have a seat at the ECB? No.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Last time I looked the EU comprised 28 Countries and that we are one of the 28, therefore that is a seat at the top table as far as I am concernedMP_SE said:
The EU is facing enormous problems, mainly brought about as a result of the eurozone. You mention having a seat at the top table. The UK is excluded from Eurogroup meetings as they have not adopted the Euro...Big_G_NorthWales said:
I believe the UK is better at the table in an EU that is facing enormous change and that quite simply leave have failed to make any case to justify the economic and security risks that a leap in the dark would involve.chestnut said:
Taking wishful thinking to a new level.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not going to happen in years and even then there is a 7 year transition period. Furthermore David Cameron will have retired long before it is even an issue. Leave have today lost the Turkey argumentTCPoliticalBetting said:
If the PM says he wants Turkey to join quickly, he has effectively given up his veto. It is arguable that "my word is my bond" applies!Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
It is the same as if a PM said he could not envisage campaigning to leave some group and then started negotiations to get better terms for staying in. In such circumstances the others would give very little ground to the PM as his negotiating position had been fatally undermined. Ring a bell?
Which version of Remain are you offering up? Cameron's? Corbyn's? Juncker's?
Do we have a seat at the WTO? No.
We are caught in no-mans land without any seat.0 -
So, let's see if I understand it, as you can't be bothered to explain. (I take it you accept my other point, as you seem to want to discuss this arcane point.)Scott_P said:
If you don't understand the difference that explains quite a lotVapidBilge said:And how different is posting a tweet on a public forum from re-tweeting?
Re-tweeting: tweeting a post to your followers, but unless settings are changed, they can also be read on the WWW.
Scott_and_Pasting: posting a tweet on PB for its readers which is read on the WWW.
So, re-tweeting is more push media?
Which brings me to what I've been wondering. How many people do you follow on Twitter? I mean, judging by your varied re-posts, you must be inundated with crap, some of which you actually post on here.0 -
I'm a Leaver (as is Richard Tyndall), and we will both say that there is no realistic possibility than Turkey will join the EU given: (a) the French requirement to have a referendum, (b) Greece and Cyprus, and (c) that Turkey will not meet any of the accession criteria.
And this is why leave will lose. The honesty of your answer and also it's accuracy blows Penny Mordaunt out of the water and again shows how leave are in chaos, but that was to be expected when there are so many competing visions within leave, thereby diluting the credibility of the proposition to leave the EU
Depends how you define the question.
Do we (the British electorate who are voting next month) have a veto? No we do not.
Does the British government with a stated policy of accepting Turkey as soon as possible have a veto? Yes.
Is this the last chance we (as the British electorate) have to stop Turkish membership? Almost certainly yes.
With respect that is just nonsense. If and when Turkey are in a position to meet membership rules not only David Cameron, but most of today's politicians will have left office, and the government of the day will have the right to veto or otherwise Turkey's membersghip0 -
There are 140+ MPs openly out for LEAVE. More than enough to get one of the two slots for members. There are another group of REMAINers who are against Osborne and want him out, some through ambition and others because they want to retain their seat at the GE and know Osborne is toxic.HYUFD said:
It is the MPs who will actually decide who the final 2 are, if Remain win a Leave candidate may not be put to the members. It could be Osborne v a sceptical Remainer like Hammond or MayTCPoliticalBetting said:
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.
0 -
Any evidence for that? Scientific BPC member surveys show a majority of Tory voters (not members) for Remain as shown in a thread yesterday.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.
Besides as a member I will be voting Leave I expect but in a leadership election I will be voting for the best candidate who can win a general election and look after taxes and spending appropriately ... not based on Leave/Remain which will be dead and buried by then. You mistakenly assume that for all Tory members Leave/Remain is the critical, perhaps only issue which is not just false but absurd.0 -
Many ConHome surveys. Have you missed them?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Evidence for that statement please.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.
0 -
Ah, yes, but that's Remain truthiness for you.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Credibility? Is that the same as the official UK government forecast of 20,000 more people from Poland etc countries that turned into >1 million? You seem to trust the UK Government on an issue that they have spectacularly failed.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Whatever Merkel is trying to do and what Turkey may or may not agree to is not membership of the EU - Turkey's membership is years away if ever.Today's project fear by leave has singularly failed and been shown to have no creditabilityBlue_rog said:
That's why Merrkel is doing under the table deals to give de facto membershipBig_G_NorthWales said:
And this is why leave will lose. The honesty of your answer and also it's accuracy blows Penny Mordaunt out of the water and again shows how leave are in chaos, but that was to be expected when there are so many competing visions within leave, thereby diluting the credibility of the proposition to leave the EUrcs1000 said:
I'm a Leaver (as is Richard Tyndall), and we will both say that there is no realistic possibility than Turkey will join the EU given: (a) the French requirement to have a referendum, (b) Greece and Cyprus, and (c) that Turkey will not meet any of the accession criteria.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Suddenly to REMAIN a junior minister's words matter more than the head of the UK govt.....AlastairMeeks said:
I ask simply for an acknowledgement from Leavers that Penny Mordaunt lied. The absurd contortions offered to suggest that she spoke to some form of deeper truth merely indicate the extreme silliness of so many Leavers.initforthemoney said:
So presumably the logic of each and every remainer must be the same as that of John McDonnell and Michael Heseltine at the same time because there must be only one remain groupthink? Or perhaps you only prescribe such a ludicrous standard for leavers.AlastairMeeks said:I'm losing track, are Leavers claiming that Britain doesn't have a veto because...
Q: Will the British people have a veto on Turkey joining?
A: Highly unlikely so that is a No (the french people will have).
Q: Is it Cameron's policy and the Govt's stated policy, that Turkey should join at earliest possible time and that by implication the Govt would not exercise a veto?
A: Yes.
Q: Did Cameron sign up to a statement 9 weeks ago that the accession arrangements for Turkey becoming an EU member should be accelerated?
A: Yes.
Q: Should we believe what Cameron and the Government tells us?
A: REMAIN seem to say yes if it suits them and no if it does not suit them.....0 -
That suggests we should join the EuroPhilip_Thompson said:
Do we have a seat at the ECB? No.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Last time I looked the EU comprised 28 Countries and that we are one of the 28, therefore that is a seat at the top table as far as I am concernedMP_SE said:
The EU is facing enormous problems, mainly brought about as a result of the eurozone. You mention having a seat at the top table. The UK is excluded from Eurogroup meetings as they have not adopted the Euro...Big_G_NorthWales said:
I believe the UK is better at the table in an EU that is facing enormous change and that quite simply leave have failed to make any case to justify the economic and security risks that a leap in the dark would involve.chestnut said:
Taking wishful thinking to a new level.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not going to happen in years and even then there is a 7 year transition period. Furthermore David Cameron will have retired long before it is even an issue. Leave have today lost the Turkey argumentTCPoliticalBetting said:
If the PM says he wants Turkey to join quickly, he has effectively given up his veto. It is arguable that "my word is my bond" applies!Big_G_NorthWales said:Listening to today's controversy re Turkey's succession to the EU and up to 12 million Turks arriving in the UK, leave have again made the mistake of not understanding their brief and Penny Mordaunt's denial of the UK's veto is beyond belief, particularly as is was on Marr, and is now the theme of the day, with everyone from the PM down affirming that not only does the UK have a veto but so does everyone else including Greece. Also video out today of Boris extolling the virtue of Turkey joining the EU, even though leave are making such a big issue of it. I believe the campaign has already been won by remain due to leave's utter incompetence and inability to have a believable alternative outside the EU. Less than 14 days to the postal votes going in and I cannot see anything on the horizon that is a game changer for leave.
It is the same as if a PM said he could not envisage campaigning to leave some group and then started negotiations to get better terms for staying in. In such circumstances the others would give very little ground to the PM as his negotiating position had been fatally undermined. Ring a bell?
Which version of Remain are you offering up? Cameron's? Corbyn's? Juncker's?
Do we have a seat at the WTO? No.
We are caught in no-mans land without any seat.
0 -
Half a dozen of us canvassing Corbyn heartland (St George's Ward Islington) for Remain this morning. About 75% Remain, 20% Leave, 5% unsure. Main points of interest were that interest is very high - at General Election levels, people anxiously checking the register, where they'll be on the day, etc., and there are almost no "don't knows". Lots of Remain posters but the Leave people were very definite too.0
-
So what? You think those only care about Leaving? An MP like Gove is more likely to back a serious cabinet contender like May or Osborne than he is a flake like Boris.TCPoliticalBetting said:
There are 140+ MPs openly out for LEAVE. More than enough to get one of the two slots for members. There are another group of REMAINers who are against Osborne and want him out, some through ambition and others because they want to retain their seat at the GE and know Osborne is toxic.HYUFD said:
It is the MPs who will actually decide who the final 2 are, if Remain win a Leave candidate may not be put to the members. It could be Osborne v a sceptical Remainer like Hammond or MayTCPoliticalBetting said:
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.0 -
It is quite possible many of those Leave MPs will back Hammond or May, a few like Gove may even back Osborne. Boris may end up in third place like Portillo and knocked outTCPoliticalBetting said:
There are 140+ MPs openly out for LEAVE. More than enough to get one of the two slots for members. There are another group of REMAINers who are against Osborne and want him out, some through ambition and others because they want to retain their seat at the GE and know Osborne is toxic.HYUFD said:
It is the MPs who will actually decide who the final 2 are, if Remain win a Leave candidate may not be put to the members. It could be Osborne v a sceptical Remainer like Hammond or MayTCPoliticalBetting said:
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.0 -
Nor do I, Mr. C., and why should we since what he says now is a direct contradiction of what he said a year or two back. Then he said the UK could thrive outside the EU now he says leaving would mean armageddon. How can anyone trust such a man?OldKingCole said:
I don’t believe a word Cameron says.
0 -
Or Leave.Blue_rog said:
That suggests we should join the EuroPhilip_Thompson said:
Do we have a seat at the ECB? No.Big_G_NorthWales said:Last time I looked the EU comprised 28 Countries and that we are one of the 28, therefore that is a seat at the top table as far as I am concerned
Do we have a seat at the WTO? No.
We are caught in no-mans land without any seat.
Is being a member of the Euro workable with a seat at the top table? No and yes.
Is being a member of the EU outside the Eurozone workable with a seat at the top table? Yes and No.
Is being an independent nation workable with a seat at the top table? Yes and yes.0 -
@murdo_fraser: Support for #indyref2 falls - and more Scots support Trident than oppose: https://t.co/sakiD6FBNC The wheels are coming off the SNP wagon
...but, but, but Wings says his numbers are up !0 -
Your most accurate post to date.VapidBilge said:as you can't be bothered
0 -
Yes, but that's people currently giving a Tory VI, which by definition excludes those who Cameron has pissed off with his behaviour on this issue.Philip_Thompson said:
Any evidence for that? Scientific BPC member surveys show a majority of Tory voters (not members) for Remain as shown in a thread yesterday.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.
0 -
20% Leave in Islington? Golly.NickPalmer said:Half a dozen of us canvassing Corbyn heartland (St George's Ward Islington) for Remain this morning. About 75% Remain, 20% Leave, 5% unsure. Main points of interest were that interest is very high - at General Election levels, people anxiously checking the register, where they'll be on the day, etc., and there are almost no "don't knows". Lots of Remain posters but the Leave people were very definite too.
0 -
So no evidence. ConHome surveys are surveys of ContinuityIDS members, not party members.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Many ConHome surveys. Have you missed them?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Evidence for that statement please.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.0 -
No it doesn't. There will be many Cameron has pissed off that will still intend to vote Tory anyway.ThreeQuidder said:
Yes, but that's people currently giving a Tory VI, which by definition excludes those who Cameron has pissed off with his behaviour on this issue.Philip_Thompson said:
Any evidence for that? Scientific BPC member surveys show a majority of Tory voters (not members) for Remain as shown in a thread yesterday.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.0 -
Quoting more losers, Murdo upset at football result so comes up with a few lies = SNPBAD............Ha Ha HaScott_P said:@murdo_fraser: Support for #indyref2 falls - and more Scots support Trident than oppose: https://t.co/sakiD6FBNC The wheels are coming off the SNP wagon
...but, but, but Wings says his numbers are up !
Wheels really shaky when more of electorate vote for you than the 3 next opposition parties combined. Methinks you and Murdo are two cheeks of the same arse.0 -
Me neither. I didn't vote for Tony Mk II. Yet, I've got it.HurstLlama said:
Nor do I, Mr. C., and why should we since what he says now is a direct contradiction of what he said a year or two back. Then he said the UK could thrive outside the EU now he says leaving would mean armageddon. How can anyone trust such a man?OldKingCole said:
I don’t believe a word Cameron says.0 -
Conhome did correctly predict the 2005 leadership election almost exactly, it is normally pretty accurate but as you say Tory members are more rightwing than Tory voters, especially since some of the latter in 2015 have moved to UKIPPhilip_Thompson said:
So no evidence. ConHome surveys are surveys of ContinuityIDS members, not party members.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Many ConHome surveys. Have you missed them?Big_G_NorthWales said:
Evidence for that statement please.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.0 -
If we stay in, we should. Sniping from the sidelines about the EU project that has just been endorsed in a referendum will not go down well in Brussels and EU national capitals.Blue_rog said:
That suggests we should join the EuroPhilip_Thompson said:
Do we have a seat at the ECB? No.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Last time I looked the EU comprised 28 Countries and that we are one of the 28, therefore that is a seat at the top table as far as I am concernedMP_SE said:
The EU is facing enormous problems, mainly brought about as a result of the eurozone. You mention having a seat at the top table. The UK is excluded from Eurogroup meetings as they have not adopted the Euro...Big_G_NorthWales said:
I believe the UK is better at the table in an EU that is facing enormous change and that quite simply leave have failed to make any case to justify the economic and security risks that a leap in the dark would involve.chestnut said:
Taking wishful thinking to a new level.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is not going to happen in years and even then there is a 7 year transition period. Furthermore David Cameron will have retired long before it is even an issue. Leave have today lost the Turkey argumentTCPoliticalBetting said:
If the PM says he wants Turkey to join quickly, he has effectively given up his veto. It is arguable that "my word is my bond" applies!
It is the same as if a PM said he could not envisage campaigning to leave some group and then started negotiations to get better terms for staying in. In such circumstances the others would give very little ground to the PM as his negotiating position had been fatally undermined. Ring a bell?
Which version of Remain are you offering up? Cameron's? Corbyn's? Juncker's?
Do we have a seat at the WTO? No.
We are caught in no-mans land without any seat.0 -
You seem to think that it's just you and me on this forum. There are others reading this thread and it would be nice if you replied with something other than petty retorts.Scott_P said:
Your most accurate post to date.VapidBilge said:as you can't be bothered
But then, judging by your re-posts, when did you ever care about wasting other people's time?0 -
Do you think high or low?Plato_Says said:
20% Leave in Islington? Golly.NickPalmer said:Half a dozen of us canvassing Corbyn heartland (St George's Ward Islington) for Remain this morning. About 75% Remain, 20% Leave, 5% unsure. Main points of interest were that interest is very high - at General Election levels, people anxiously checking the register, where they'll be on the day, etc., and there are almost no "don't knows". Lots of Remain posters but the Leave people were very definite too.
0 -
Sweetly reminiscent of your wonderful Broxtowe GE canvassing reports.NickPalmer said:Half a dozen of us canvassing Corbyn heartland (St George's Ward Islington) for Remain this morning. About 75% Remain, 20% Leave, 5% unsure. Main points of interest were that interest is very high - at General Election levels, people anxiously checking the register, where they'll be on the day, etc., and there are almost no "don't knows". Lots of Remain posters but the Leave people were very definite too.
0 -
Many will be signalling their displeasure by reporting a different VI.Philip_Thompson said:
No it doesn't. There will be many Cameron has pissed off that will still intend to vote Tory anyway.ThreeQuidder said:
Yes, but that's people currently giving a Tory VI, which by definition excludes those who Cameron has pissed off with his behaviour on this issue.Philip_Thompson said:
Any evidence for that? Scientific BPC member surveys show a majority of Tory voters (not members) for Remain as shown in a thread yesterday.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.0 -
Higher than I expected, @anothernick said he'd canvassed a similar area and 100 doorknocks were all Remain...VapidBilge said:
Do you think high or low?Plato_Says said:
20% Leave in Islington? Golly.NickPalmer said:Half a dozen of us canvassing Corbyn heartland (St George's Ward Islington) for Remain this morning. About 75% Remain, 20% Leave, 5% unsure. Main points of interest were that interest is very high - at General Election levels, people anxiously checking the register, where they'll be on the day, etc., and there are almost no "don't knows". Lots of Remain posters but the Leave people were very definite too.
0 -
About what I'd have expected, really - there's a 16% Tory vote in the ward, of which say half might be for Leave, some left-wing anti-TTIP people and a few random variations. I'd guess that there's a 20% Remain vote in deepest Surrey...Plato_Says said:
20% Leave in Islington? Golly.NickPalmer said:Half a dozen of us canvassing Corbyn heartland (St George's Ward Islington) for Remain this morning. About 75% Remain, 20% Leave, 5% unsure. Main points of interest were that interest is very high - at General Election levels, people anxiously checking the register, where they'll be on the day, etc., and there are almost no "don't knows". Lots of Remain posters but the Leave people were very definite too.
0 -
Not that many judging by recent polls.ThreeQuidder said:
Many will be signalling their displeasure by reporting a different VI.Philip_Thompson said:
No it doesn't. There will be many Cameron has pissed off that will still intend to vote Tory anyway.ThreeQuidder said:
Yes, but that's people currently giving a Tory VI, which by definition excludes those who Cameron has pissed off with his behaviour on this issue.Philip_Thompson said:
Any evidence for that? Scientific BPC member surveys show a majority of Tory voters (not members) for Remain as shown in a thread yesterday.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.0 -
Thanks to @Scott_P this morning for pointing out how split the tory party is,thanks scotty,your doing a great job.0
-
ABC news poll has Trump taking a narrow lead over Clinton with Registered voters as her battle with Sanders continues, though Sanders has a net positive rating the other 2 a net negative
Registered voters
Trump 46 Clinton 44
All voters
Clinton 48 Trump 42
Net favourability Clinton -16, Trump -17, Sanders +8
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/poll-election-2016-shapes-up-as-a-contest-of-negatives/2016/05/21/8d4ccfd6-1ed3-11e6-b6e0-c53b7ef63b45_story.html?wpisrc=al_alert-COMBO-national+politics+localpolitics
0 -
I have increased my bets on Leave following this latest front line reportMonikerDiCanio said:
Sweetly reminiscent of your wonderful Broxtowe GE canvassing reports.NickPalmer said:Half a dozen of us canvassing Corbyn heartland (St George's Ward Islington) for Remain this morning. About 75% Remain, 20% Leave, 5% unsure. Main points of interest were that interest is very high - at General Election levels, people anxiously checking the register, where they'll be on the day, etc., and there are almost no "don't knows". Lots of Remain posters but the Leave people were very definite too.
0 -
Probably much higher than 20% remain in Surrey- the E.U favours the wealthy.NickPalmer said:
About what I'd have expected, really - there's a 16% Tory vote in the ward, of which say half might be for Leave, some left-wing anti-TTIP people and a few random variations. I'd guess that there's a 20% Remain vote in deepest Surrey...Plato_Says said:
20% Leave in Islington? Golly.NickPalmer said:Half a dozen of us canvassing Corbyn heartland (St George's Ward Islington) for Remain this morning. About 75% Remain, 20% Leave, 5% unsure. Main points of interest were that interest is very high - at General Election levels, people anxiously checking the register, where they'll be on the day, etc., and there are almost no "don't knows". Lots of Remain posters but the Leave people were very definite too.
If Nick is saying Leave is getting 20% in Islington it's probably more like 40% for leave.
Share this link as far and wide as you can! On facebook etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5zKbV1HXdU0 -
I don't know what to expect. Those left behind in an area of high immigration resent their community has changed, but keep quiet about it. Those who have moved out are quite vocal about it. Safer to admit it farther out.Plato_Says said:
Higher than I expected, @anothernick said he'd canvassed a similar area and 100 doorknocks were all Remain...VapidBilge said:
Do you think high or low?Plato_Says said:
20% Leave in Islington? Golly.NickPalmer said:Half a dozen of us canvassing Corbyn heartland (St George's Ward Islington) for Remain this morning. About 75% Remain, 20% Leave, 5% unsure. Main points of interest were that interest is very high - at General Election levels, people anxiously checking the register, where they'll be on the day, etc., and there are almost no "don't knows". Lots of Remain posters but the Leave people were very definite too.
Joker in the pack: a lot of EU citizens are registered to vote in EU and local elections, but are not eligible to vote in the referendum.0 -
I'm very pissed off and not changing my VI - yet.ThreeQuidder said:
Many will be signalling their displeasure by reporting a different VI.Philip_Thompson said:
No it doesn't. There will be many Cameron has pissed off that will still intend to vote Tory anyway.ThreeQuidder said:
Yes, but that's people currently giving a Tory VI, which by definition excludes those who Cameron has pissed off with his behaviour on this issue.Philip_Thompson said:
Any evidence for that? Scientific BPC member surveys show a majority of Tory voters (not members) for Remain as shown in a thread yesterday.TCPoliticalBetting said:
Not how it may work out inside the party. 2/3 of members are for LEAVE and they will decide.HYUFD said:
If Remain win then we will have a Remain PM it is as simple as that. If Leave want a Leave backing PM they need to win the referendumTCPoliticalBetting said:
Agreed. One way REMAIN could lower the problems inside the Conservative party is if LEAVErs take over many of the key roles starting with the PM. But since Cameron and Osborne no longer care for the party I cannot see sense prevailing.Sean_F said:
It seems likely we'll have a recession at some point between now and 2020. If Leave win, this will be blamed on Leave. Indeed, any difficulty that arises will be blamed on Leave.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, accepting the lack of choice, Cameron's still mishandled it.
If Remain win, then Leave supporters will say " told you so", every time the EU does something we don't like. UKIP will keep chipping away at Conservative support. Some Conservatives who reluctantly voted Remain will feel like Labour supporters who reluctantly backed Tony Blair over Iraq.0 -
That ruck in the Turkish parliament is quite something, isn't it? Was it the Kurdish MPs complaining about their rights being taken away?nunu said:
Probably much higher than 20% remain in Surrey- the E.U favours the wealthy.NickPalmer said:
About what I'd have expected, really - there's a 16% Tory vote in the ward, of which say half might be for Leave, some left-wing anti-TTIP people and a few random variations. I'd guess that there's a 20% Remain vote in deepest Surrey...Plato_Says said:
20% Leave in Islington? Golly.NickPalmer said:Half a dozen of us canvassing Corbyn heartland (St George's Ward Islington) for Remain this morning. About 75% Remain, 20% Leave, 5% unsure. Main points of interest were that interest is very high - at General Election levels, people anxiously checking the register, where they'll be on the day, etc., and there are almost no "don't knows". Lots of Remain posters but the Leave people were very definite too.
If Nick is saying Leave is getting 20% in Islington it's probably more like 40% for leave.
Share this link as far and wide as you can! On facebook etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5zKbV1HXdU
Coming soon!0 -
It's a real buggers muddle - I've no idea what's going on.VapidBilge said:
I don't know what to expect. Those left behind in an area of high immigration resent their community has changed, but keep quiet about it. Those who have moved out are quite vocal about it. Safer to admit it farther out.Plato_Says said:
Higher than I expected, @anothernick said he'd canvassed a similar area and 100 doorknocks were all Remain...VapidBilge said:
Do you think high or low?Plato_Says said:
20% Leave in Islington? Golly.NickPalmer said:Half a dozen of us canvassing Corbyn heartland (St George's Ward Islington) for Remain this morning. About 75% Remain, 20% Leave, 5% unsure. Main points of interest were that interest is very high - at General Election levels, people anxiously checking the register, where they'll be on the day, etc., and there are almost no "don't knows". Lots of Remain posters but the Leave people were very definite too.
Joker in the pack: a lot of EU citizens are registered to vote in EU and local elections, but are not eligible to vote in the referendum.0 -
Plato_Says said:
Me neither. I didn't vote for Tony Mk II. Yet, I've got it.HurstLlama said:
Nor do I, Mr. C., and why should we since what he says now is a direct contradiction of what he said a year or two back. Then he said the UK could thrive outside the EU now he says leaving would mean armageddon. How can anyone trust such a man?OldKingCole said:
I don’t believe a word Cameron says.
Alas, you did. Miss P. , but maybe you were not paying attention: Cameron said he was the "True heir to Blair". No fault on your behalf I am sure because Cameron says so many things that are mutually contradictory that working out what he actually thinks let alone will do, given the chance, cannot be more than a guessing game.Plato_Says said:
Me neither. I didn't vote for Tony Mk II. Yet, I've got it.HurstLlama said:
Nor do I, Mr. C., and why should we since what he says now is a direct contradiction of what he said a year or two back. Then he said the UK could thrive outside the EU now he says leaving would mean armageddon. How can anyone trust such a man?OldKingCole said:
I don’t believe a word Cameron says.0 -
Penny Mordaunt wasn't lying about a UK veto on Turkish EU membership. It's worse than that. She didn't know. What a shockingly poor government this is.0
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Aren't you a very wet Tory, though?Plato_Says said:
Me neither. I didn't vote for Tony Mk II. Yet, I've got it.HurstLlama said:
Nor do I, Mr. C., and why should we since what he says now is a direct contradiction of what he said a year or two back. Then he said the UK could thrive outside the EU now he says leaving would mean armageddon. How can anyone trust such a man?OldKingCole said:
I don’t believe a word Cameron says.
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There is much more than 20% Remain in deepest Surrey. More like 45%. Lots of AB voters.NickPalmer said:
About what I'd have expected, really - there's a 16% Tory vote in the ward, of which say half might be for Leave, some left-wing anti-TTIP people and a few random variations. I'd guess that there's a 20% Remain vote in deepest Surrey...Plato_Says said:
20% Leave in Islington? Golly.NickPalmer said:Half a dozen of us canvassing Corbyn heartland (St George's Ward Islington) for Remain this morning. About 75% Remain, 20% Leave, 5% unsure. Main points of interest were that interest is very high - at General Election levels, people anxiously checking the register, where they'll be on the day, etc., and there are almost no "don't knows". Lots of Remain posters but the Leave people were very definite too.
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I'll see your Penny Mordaunt and raise you Hattie Hateperson!SouthamObserver said:Penny Mordaunt wasn't lying about a UK veto on Turkish EU membership. It's worse than that. She didn't know. What a shockingly poor government this is.
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Is St George's ward Tufnell Park down to Holloway Road? Very mixed, if so.NickPalmer said:Half a dozen of us canvassing Corbyn heartland (St George's Ward Islington) for Remain this morning. About 75% Remain, 20% Leave, 5% unsure. Main points of interest were that interest is very high - at General Election levels, people anxiously checking the register, where they'll be on the day, etc., and there are almost no "don't knows". Lots of Remain posters but the Leave people were very definite too.
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The fact that Kurdish MPs rights are infringed is itself a bar to Turkish membership of the EU.VapidBilge said:
That ruck in the Turkish parliament is quite something, isn't it? Was it the Kurdish MPs complaining about their rights being taken away?nunu said:
Probably much higher than 20% remain in Surrey- the E.U favours the wealthy.NickPalmer said:
About what I'd have expected, really - there's a 16% Tory vote in the ward, of which say half might be for Leave, some left-wing anti-TTIP people and a few random variations. I'd guess that there's a 20% Remain vote in deepest Surrey...Plato_Says said:
20% Leave in Islington? Golly.NickPalmer said:Half a dozen of us canvassing Corbyn heartland (St George's Ward Islington) for Remain this morning. About 75% Remain, 20% Leave, 5% unsure. Main points of interest were that interest is very high - at General Election levels, people anxiously checking the register, where they'll be on the day, etc., and there are almost no "don't knows". Lots of Remain posters but the Leave people were very definite too.
If Nick is saying Leave is getting 20% in Islington it's probably more like 40% for leave.
Share this link as far and wide as you can! On facebook etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5zKbV1HXdU
Coming soon!
So: Not coming here soon!0 -
Yes, and I rejected Blair and what he represented - I've just got him again wearing a blue tie instead. My principles haven't changed.SouthamObserver said:
Aren't you a very wet Tory, though?Plato_Says said:
Me neither. I didn't vote for Tony Mk II. Yet, I've got it.HurstLlama said:
Nor do I, Mr. C., and why should we since what he says now is a direct contradiction of what he said a year or two back. Then he said the UK could thrive outside the EU now he says leaving would mean armageddon. How can anyone trust such a man?OldKingCole said:
I don’t believe a word Cameron says.0 -
And this is why leave will lose. The honesty of your answer and also it's accuracy blows Penny Mordaunt out of the water and again shows how leave are in chaos, but that was to be expected when there are so many competing visions within leave, thereby diluting the credibility of the proposition to leave the EUBig_G_NorthWales said:
I'm a Leaver (as is Richard Tyndall), and we will both say that there is no realistic possibility than Turkey will join the EU given: (a) the French requirement to have a referendum, (b) Greece and Cyprus, and (c) that Turkey will not meet any of the accession criteria.
Depends how you define the question.
Do we (the British electorate who are voting next month) have a veto? No we do not.
Does the British government with a stated policy of accepting Turkey as soon as possible have a veto? Yes.
Is this the last chance we (as the British electorate) have to stop Turkish membership? Almost certainly yes.
With respect that is just nonsense. If and when Turkey are in a position to meet membership rules not only David Cameron, but most of today's politicians will have left office, and the government of the day will have the right to veto or otherwise Turkey's membersghip
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Good post !0
