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The sovereignty bill was a contortion - a physical impossibility. Had they tried to get it through, it would have fallen in the same way that the Shipping Bill in the 80's did - the Famous Factortame cases. EU law is above UK law, because we are obliged by the treaty to accept this. No law is constitutional in the UK unless it is convergent with EU law.Plato_Says said:As suspected. Plans for a Bill of Rights are on legislative backburner with no more than a passing mention in the Queen’s Speech.
That along with lies about a Sovereignty Bill only 3 months ago et al speaks volumes.
Who wants a shameless liar as leader? Not me.0 -
I wonder if Serena Cowdy now regrets giving BothVotesSNP ?0
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On all three occasions the public were told we had opted-out of the political union, and yet here we are with Dave securing yet another opt-out of it. The Remain side (at least those who aren't federalists) see the EU as a tool for economic gain, and it is, without a doubt. Yet, they are blind, wilfully in the case of our politicians, to the political union that the EU is chasing. I don't see how that circle can be squared without essentially taking a leading role within the EU which means joining the EMU and actually playing a leading role in setting the tone of the EU.TOPPING said:
On each of those occasions the democratically-elected government of the UK signed up to those treaties. You may not like it, I didn't like much of it, and above all hated having a Labour government for 13 years, but there's democracy (and sovereignty) for you.MaxPB said:
No, we just won't be in it. That's the point of leaving. Yes we can still have some kind of relationship with the EU state but we wouldn't be governed by it. We would be a completely separate nation state with no political ties to the superstate, our companies would be bound to EU state standards when selling to the EU, but beyond that we would just live peaceably with it. Inside we would be party to harmonisation of law, economic policy and the military, but because we're on the sidelines we have very little say in how this all goes down so the ECJ reverts to it's default, "what's the French view".TOPPING said:How is us leaving not going to end up with a superstate on our doorstep? Do you think they will abandon all plans if we leave? Will we be less marginalised if we leave than if we stay?
For me it is a logic fail.
I think you are unduly pessimistic about our prospects if we stay in. But you know that as we have had this conversation before several times so perhaps best leave it there.
It's not pessimistic, it is realistic. Name one single time where the government set out a position which said "it's not a political union", "we won't be affected", "Britain has opted-out" that has been proved correct. Maastricht - fail, Nice - Fail, Lisbon - Fail. Every single time our government has assured us that UK interests will be protected and we wouldn't be part of the political union, every time we have been dragged into it kicking and screaming. I'd like for the political union to be abandoned as our government so clearly wants, but history and experience has taught me otherwise, it will continue unabated by our protests, if we're in, we may as well be all-in rather than sort of in.0 -
I knew the Nat deluge was of low quality but even I have been surprised by their wanton trashiness. Awful people.Scott_P said:@AlanRoden: Breaking: Tories report Stewart Hosie and Angus MacNeil to Standards Commissioner to request probe into accommodation expenses.
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No! If you assume the worse of Cameron and Osborne's Conservative Party you will never, ever be disappointed.Richard_Nabavi said:
I think we should wait and see the detail before jumping to any conclusions, should we not?anothernick said:How long will it be before this is dropped following another back-bench Tory revolt?
I'd give it a couple of weeks at the most.0 -
Gin1138..Class Act..0
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I think I've realised why Leavers are so grumpy.
The Ipsos Mori poll show the voters don't believe Dave's War and Peace lines yet there's still a swing to Remain.
Remarkable.0 -
A viable Coalition would have been my prefered option but ironically the Tory gains scuppered that along with the LibDem dismal performance.Richard_Nabavi said:I think we need to wait until the referendum is over before judging this administration. Whilst the first year hasn't been great (except of course the continuing progress in the economy, George be praised), that's not too surprising given the overwhelming focus on the EU.
The big question is whether, with the small majority, Cameron and/or his successor can use the last four years to achieve as much as the 2010-2015 government did. We shall see.
I also deplore referenda, except for nation forming as with SINDY. We've almost been in stasis for almost a year both economically and politically all down to this EU plebiscite.
If politicians abrogate their responsibilities and can't make important decisions without reference to the voters again then we should cut their pay in half .... at least !!
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Strikes me as quite sensible.rottenborough said:It appears from video doing the rounds that Corbyn just completed ignored Cameron and resisted all attempts for a little small talk on the way into Queen's talk. What's wrong with these people?
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@paulhutcheon: John Swinney is the new Education Secretary
Demoted after the disastrous election campaign. As predicted.0 -
Yes, and if you want to be indignant than it's much better to be indignant first, when you can make up your own straw men to rant about.GIN1138 said:
No! If you assume the worse of Cameron and Osborne's Conservative Party you will never, ever be disappointed.Richard_Nabavi said:
I think we should wait and see the detail before jumping to any conclusions, should we not?anothernick said:How long will it be before this is dropped following another back-bench Tory revolt?
I'd give it a couple of weeks at the most.0 -
They'd still vote him back in as PM.GIN1138 said:
That lying, treacherous quisling Cameron abandoned the idea after he lied to the British people to get himself elected.... How did it all go so wrong...MP_SE said:I am slightly confused as to where the Sovereignty Bill has disappeared to.
Perhaps you're out touch?0 -
Just looked into the detail of the recent ICM polls.
The online one had a sample more than twice as big as the telephone poll. (2048 vs 1002)
In fact Remain have not had more than a 2% lead in any poll since 22nd March which surveyed more than 1250 people.
In polls with more than 1250 people Remain are ahead in 8 and Leave 12 . The majority of such polls with a remain lead (5 out of 8) were conducted before 7th April.0 -
According to the Daily Mail the Queen's Speech sees Dave introducing measures giving 'Britons the chance to rise' as well as cracking down on porn.
These measures appear contradictory to me. ;-)0 -
I read a story that claimed the two MPs had clocked up £16k of hotel bills during the nooky period. That's a lot of working-late/room service.MonikerDiCanio said:
I knew the Nat deluge was of low quality but even I have been surprised by their wanton trashiness. Awful people.Scott_P said:@AlanRoden: Breaking: Tories report Stewart Hosie and Angus MacNeil to Standards Commissioner to request probe into accommodation expenses.
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Hezza has really put the wind up the Brexiteers. Bozza, IDS, now the Moggster
@politicshome: Lord Heseltine is a "frightful old humbug", says Jacob Rees-Mogg after Boris Johnson attack. https://t.co/4SxjjEE6YB https://t.co/J6w145JlGn0 -
Getting over 40% of the vote is "disastrous" ?!Scott_P said:@paulhutcheon: John Swinney is the new Education Secretary
Demoted after the disastrous election campaign. As predicted.0 -
A week is a long time in politics. Don't crow just yet my friend.TheScreamingEagles said:I think I've realised why Leavers are so grumpy.
The Ipsos Mori poll show the voters don't believe Dave's War and Peace lines yet there's still a swing to Remain.
Remarkable.0 -
But they won't get the opportunity... Let's see what the entirely unelectable George Osborne does to your party when Cameron goes...TheScreamingEagles said:
They'd still vote him back in as PM.GIN1138 said:
That lying, treacherous quisling Cameron abandoned the idea after he lied to the British people to get himself elected.... How did it all go so wrong...MP_SE said:I am slightly confused as to where the Sovereignty Bill has disappeared to.
Perhaps you're out touch?0 -
I think that is a problem with UK politicians more than a problem with the EU. Politicians have promised any amount of old bolleaux over the years only for them to renege or reinterpret their promises. In this case the EU is the subject.MaxPB said:
On all three occasions the public were told we had opted-out of the political union, and yet here we are with Dave securing yet another opt-out of it. The Remain side (at least those who aren't federalists) see the EU as a tool for economic gain, and it is, without a doubt. Yet, they are blind, wilfully in the case of our politicians, to the political union that the EU is chasing. I don't see how that circle can be squared without essentially taking a leading role within the EU which means joining the EMU and actually playing a leading role in setting the tone of the EU.TOPPING said:
On each of those occasions the democratically-elected government of the UK signed up to those treaties. You may not like it, I didn't like much of it, and above all hated having a Labour government for 13 years, but there's democracy (and sovereignty) for you.MaxPB said:
No, we just won't be iolitical ties to the superstate, our companies would be bound to EU state standards when selling to the EU, but beyond that we would just live peaceably with it. Inside we would be party to harmonisation of law, economic policy and the military, but because we're on the sidelines we have very little say in how this all goes down so the ECJ reverts to it's default, "what's the French view".TOPPING said:How is us leaving not going to end up with a superstate on our doorstep? Do you think they will abandon all plans if we leave? Will we be less marginalised if we leave than if we stay?
For me it is a logic fail.
I think you are und it there.
It's not pessimistic, it is realistic. Name one single time where the government set out a position which said "it's not a political union", "we won't be affected", "Britain has opted-out" that has been proved correct. Maastricht - fail, Nice - Fail, Lisbon - Fail. Every single time our government has assured us that UK interests will be protected and we wouldn't be part of the political union, every time we have been dragged into it kicking and screaming. I'd like for the political union to be abandoned as our government so clearly wants, but history and experience has taught me otherwise, it will continue unabated by our protests, if we're in, we may as well be all-in rather than sort of in.
If the country really cared they would have voted UKIP and we would be out of it by now. Except they realise that UKIP politicians are at best as bad and arguably worse than the lot we have at the moment.
(I don't think politicians are lying duplicitous b*st*rds, btw, but I do think they try to square a lot of circles.)0 -
They really are an utterly deplorable parasite lodged in the underbelly of the Conservative party.Charles said:
They think they're going to win, so they don't need it.MP_SE said:I am slightly confused as to where the Sovereignty Bill has disappeared to.
If the Conservative party without the Cameronite faction is so awful and unelectable, it seems a good solution for the Cameronites to move on and form their own party. Their miraculous electability will obviously shine through, and the old Tory party can finally be discredited and rejected. Or not.0 -
In general I agree, but this is a bit of a special case. It could only be resolved by a referendum, and the collateral damage is just a price which has to be paid - if not now, then it would have to be paid later.JackW said:I also deplore referenda, except for nation forming as with SINDY. We've almost been in stasis for almost a year both economically and politically all down to this EU plebiscite.
If politicians abrogate their responsibilities and can't make important decisions without reference to the voters again then we should cut their pay in half .... at least !!0 -
Size isn't important. At the 2010 GE the final ICM phone poll with 2k respondents was a lot more accurate than the final YouGov poll which had 6,000 respondents.Paul_Bedfordshire said:Just looked into the detail of the recent ICM polls.
The online one had a sample more than twice as big as the telephone poll. (2048 vs 1002)
In fact Remain have not had more than a 2% lead in any poll since 22nd March which surveyed more than 1250 people.
In polls with more than 1250 people Remain are ahead in 8 and Leave 12 . The majority of such polls with a remain lead (5 out of 8) were conducted before 7th April.0 -
I honestly think he'd rather be a Lib Dem EU President, than a British PM looking after British interests.
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We should check with Serena though.TheScreamingEagles said:
Size isn't important.Paul_Bedfordshire said:Just looked into the detail of the recent ICM polls.
The online one had a sample more than twice as big as the telephone poll. (2048 vs 1002)
In fact Remain have not had more than a 2% lead in any poll since 22nd March which surveyed more than 1250 people.
In polls with more than 1250 people Remain are ahead in 8 and Leave 12 . The majority of such polls with a remain lead (5 out of 8) were conducted before 7th April.0 -
It's hard to disagree with that. If the British are a lot of grumblers but secretly quite europhile in the ballot box then our current position makes no sense.MaxPB said:
No it doesn't it creates a superstate on our doorstep, one in which we have no say in the governance of but are still going to be a part of in some manner. The status quo, even in the event that Dave's deal is somehow made binding, doesn't suit us politically or, eventually, economically. Do we really want to be Canada to the EU superstate being told by our larger neighbour exactly what to do and to like it? Or is it better to be California or New York within the superstate. Personally I'd rather not be in either position and cast our net globally, but in the event of a remain vote, that isn't going to happen. Remainers need to face up to the political reality that in order to gain 2-4% GDP you're enabling hardcore federalists and hitching the UK to that train. I've been upfront about it, the post-Brexit market turbulence is, on balance, a price worth paying for getting out of the political nightmare of the EU, the Remain side is oddly silent on the looming threat of the EU super state and what role we would have either with our current approach or when it becomes clear that the status quo just means marginalisation within the EU, all the negatives with few to none of the positives.TOPPING said:
We are in an OK place (ECJ striking down the deal nothwithstanding).MaxPB said:
I said this at the start, I'd rather be out or in, our halfway house suits no one. If it is Remain, then I'd probably prefer to join the Eurozone and just say "fuck it" and take on the Germans and French at their own game. It would probably all end in tears, but at least no one could accuse us of not trying. The status quo doesn't help us and it doesn't help them. Additionally, we could benefit from a weaker currency like the Euro, and our addition to the EMU would probably weaken it further given our huge current account deficit.Pulpstar said:
I think we should join the Euro post remain. Whats the point of being in Europe if we're going to lose money to the exchange desks every time we head off to Europe ?CD13 said:Post-referendum, I hope we get on with it.
Leave ... a new future with a few bumps in the road. Even more need to work together.
Remain ... political union, a European army, European decision-making, with one twenty seventh of the input. And hopefully no complaints from the Remainers that this wasn't what they voted for. Oh yes, it was.
If (big if for Leavers, I grant you), the deal has teeth, we have created a 2-speed europe. Which gives us the best of both worlds, IMO.
Immigration apart, which of course for those who care will not be addressed at all.0 -
No crowing here, just calming down the more hyperbolic posters.MonikerDiCanio said:
A week is a long time in politics. Don't crow just yet my friend.TheScreamingEagles said:I think I've realised why Leavers are so grumpy.
The Ipsos Mori poll show the voters don't believe Dave's War and Peace lines yet there's still a swing to Remain.
Remarkable.
A single vote has yet to be cast.
I so won't be doing an IOS0 -
According to Paul Waugh, it was the first time in 33 years that Corbyn had turned up for the Queen's Speech. No wonder he looked so bloody miserable.Luckyguy1983 said:
Strikes me as quite sensible.rottenborough said:It appears from video doing the rounds that Corbyn just completed ignored Cameron and resisted all attempts for a little small talk on the way into Queen's talk. What's wrong with these people?
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It might be a single poll but it's thoroughly demoralising for Leave. For me there's no way that kind of lead can be overhauled. Although I have always been in favour of our membership I have two strong vote leavers living under my roof and I'm guessing they might be braving this coming wet Saturday delivering leaflets and manning stalld wondering why they are doing this.0
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I preferred Alan Clarke's takedown of Heseltine. Far more wounding.Scott_P said:Hezza has really put the wind up the Brexiteers. Bozza, IDS, now the Moggster
@politicshome: Lord Heseltine is a "frightful old humbug", says Jacob Rees-Mogg after Boris Johnson attack. https://t.co/4SxjjEE6YB https://t.co/J6w145JlGn0 -
No we don't. We have been a key actor by remaining somewhat remote from Europe and only getting involved when absolutely necessary. Being inside the EU actually reduces our powers not increases them. We have seen for 40 years or more how powerless we are to stop the development of EU statehood and there is nothing that will change that.williamglenn said:
This argument completely ignores geopolitics and is an abnegation of Britain historic role as a key actor on the European continent. For as long as there is an EU, we need to be in it.MaxPB said:
No, we just won't be in it. That's the point of leaving. Yes we can still have some kind of relationship with the EU state but we wouldn't be governed by it. We would be a completely separate nation state with no political ties to the superstate, our companies would be bound to EU state standards when selling to the EU, but beyond that we would just live peaceably with it.TOPPING said:How is us leaving not going to end up with a superstate on our doorstep? Do you think they will abandon all plans if we leave? Will we be less marginalised if we leave than if we stay?
For me it is a logic fail.
I think you are unduly pessimistic about our prospects if we stay in. But you know that as we have had this conversation before several times so perhaps best leave it there.0 -
Quite sensible again.dr_spyn said:
According to Paul Waugh, it was the first time in 33 years that Corbyn had turned up for the Queen's Speech. No wonder he looked so bloody miserable.Luckyguy1983 said:
Strikes me as quite sensible.rottenborough said:It appears from video doing the rounds that Corbyn just completed ignored Cameron and resisted all attempts for a little small talk on the way into Queen's talk. What's wrong with these people?
I imagine there's a limit to the pleasure one can derive from seeing the Queen in her geegaws being used as a ventriloquists dummy for Cameron's verbal effluent every year.0 -
Angus MacNeil wins the prize for brass neck - two rows behind the PM rolling his eyes at Trident...dr_spyn said:
According to Paul Waugh, it was the first time in 33 years that Corbyn had turned up for the Queen's Speech. No wonder he looked so bloody miserable.Luckyguy1983 said:
Strikes me as quite sensible.rottenborough said:It appears from video doing the rounds that Corbyn just completed ignored Cameron and resisted all attempts for a little small talk on the way into Queen's talk. What's wrong with these people?
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Is almost like people have forgotten the polling snafu of 2015RobC said:It might be a single poll but it's thoroughly demoralising for Leave. For me there's no way that kind of lead can be overhauled. Although I have always been in favour of our membership I have two strong vote leavers living under my roof and I'm guessing they might be braving this coming wet Saturday delivering leaflets and manning stalld wondering why they are doing this.
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No ever closer union, no currency union, no discrimination EZ vs non-EZ.Richard_Tyndall said:
No we don't. We have been a key actor by remaining somewhat remote from Europe and only getting involved when absolutely necessary. Being inside the EU actually reduces our powers not increases them. We have seen for 40 years or more how powerless we are to stop the development of EU statehood and there is nothing that will change that.williamglenn said:
This argument completely ignores geopolitics and is an abnegation of Britain historic role as a key actor on the European continent. For as long as there is an EU, we need to be in it.MaxPB said:
No, we just won't be in it. That's the point of leaving. Yes we can still have some kind of relationship with the EU state but we wouldn't be governed by it. We would be a completely separate nation state with no political ties to the superstate, our companies would be bound to EU state standards when selling to the EU, but beyond that we would just live peaceably with it.TOPPING said:How is us leaving not going to end up with a superstate on our doorstep? Do you think they will abandon all plans if we leave? Will we be less marginalised if we leave than if we stay?
For me it is a logic fail.
I think you are unduly pessimistic about our prospects if we stay in. But you know that as we have had this conversation before several times so perhaps best leave it there.
The very definition of "somewhat remote".0 -
Since his own weapon has been decommissioned?CarlottaVance said:Angus MacNeil wins the prize for brass neck - two rows behind the PM rolling his eyes at Trident...
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While this poll is a blow to the Leavers and a fillip to Remainers, there's still a while to polling day, and events (rather than utterances) have the potential to change things completely. In particular, a major terrorist outrage in the UK perpetrated by e.g. French citizens of Middle Eastern heritage would probably do it. And if we accept the view that ISIS would see Brexit as a symbol of the breakdown of western cohesion, then there may well be such plans afoot. Perhaps that's wrong - maybe ISIS don't care about the issue - but it does worry me a bit.0
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Well.TheScreamingEagles said:
No crowing here, just calming down the more hyperbolic posters.MonikerDiCanio said:
A week is a long time in politics. Don't crow just yet my friend.TheScreamingEagles said:I think I've realised why Leavers are so grumpy.
The Ipsos Mori poll show the voters don't believe Dave's War and Peace lines yet there's still a swing to Remain.
Remarkable.
A single vote has yet to be cast.
I so won't be doing an IOS
Remember Istanbul and all those halftime SMS's congratulating Galliani.0 -
But this is the only recent poll showing this kind of lead and the online polls are showing a totally different picture. This isn't in the bag for Remain, not nearly.RobC said:It might be a single poll but it's thoroughly demoralising for Leave. For me there's no way that kind of lead can be overhauled. Although I have always been in favour of our membership I have two strong vote leavers living under my roof and I'm guessing they might be braving this coming wet Saturday delivering leaflets and manning stalld wondering why they are doing this.
There are still five weeks of campaigning left, plus TV debates.0 -
If so, and we lack the confidence and courage to not vote against it, then we don't deserve to be a self-governing independent nation.TheScreamingEagles said:I think I've realised why Leavers are so grumpy.
The Ipsos Mori poll show the voters don't believe Dave's War and Peace lines yet there's still a swing to Remain.
Remarkable.0 -
I'm sure there's a joke to be made about Angus MacNeil's submarine....CarlottaVance said:
Angus MacNeil wins the prize for brass neck - two rows behind the PM rolling his eyes at Trident...dr_spyn said:
According to Paul Waugh, it was the first time in 33 years that Corbyn had turned up for the Queen's Speech. No wonder he looked so bloody miserable.Luckyguy1983 said:
Strikes me as quite sensible.rottenborough said:It appears from video doing the rounds that Corbyn just completed ignored Cameron and resisted all attempts for a little small talk on the way into Queen's talk. What's wrong with these people?
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He couldn't care less about the UK that much is obvious.Plato_Says said:I honestly think he'd rather be a Lib Dem EU President, than a British PM looking after British interests.
I assume a life of vast wealth and luxury far away from this dump awaits Posh Boy Cameron... Lets hope he goes as soon as possible (WIlson went quickly after 1975, fingers crossed Cameron will follow his example)0 -
I disagree.Richard_Nabavi said:In general I agree, but this is a bit of a special case. It could only be resolved by a referendum, and the collateral damage is just a price which has to be paid - if not now, then it would have to be paid later.
If voters wanted out of the EU then they had the option to vote for UKIP or Con LEAVE candidates at the general election.
The "collateral damage" has been in my opinion significant. Uncertainty damaging the economy and a government riven by dissent, division and a policy programme thinner than OGH's hair .... and worst of all John O lost his seat.
Self inflicted and unnecessary.
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Long, hard and full of seafarers.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm sure there's a joke to be made about Angus MacNeil's submarine....CarlottaVance said:
Angus MacNeil wins the prize for brass neck - two rows behind the PM rolling his eyes at Trident...dr_spyn said:
According to Paul Waugh, it was the first time in 33 years that Corbyn had turned up for the Queen's Speech. No wonder he looked so bloody miserable.Luckyguy1983 said:
Strikes me as quite sensible.rottenborough said:It appears from video doing the rounds that Corbyn just completed ignored Cameron and resisted all attempts for a little small talk on the way into Queen's talk. What's wrong with these people?
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I disagree with that.Casino_Royale said:
If so, and we lack the confidence and courage to not vote against it, then we don't deserve to be a self-governing independent nation.TheScreamingEagles said:I think I've realised why Leavers are so grumpy.
The Ipsos Mori poll show the voters don't believe Dave's War and Peace lines yet there's still a swing to Remain.
Remarkable.
Leave haven't put together a plausible economic case for Leave. It's the economy, stupid.
(Not calling your good self stupid. It's a phrase)0 -
Well you're making my point for me, how do you square the circle of our marginalisation within the EU if we stay under the current status quo terms? I would do it by, preferably, leaving or by going all in. The idea that has been sold to the British public by politicians, either of the Labour or Tory kind, that we can have a third way within the EU, a one foot out of the door approach, is clearly rubbish. Every time they have said we could do it they have been proved wrong. They said when we didn't going the EMU that we would still be at the heart of the EU, that's bullshit, they said when we opted out of the "political union" it would no longer be an issue, and yet here we are trying to opt-out of it again.TOPPING said:I think that is a problem with UK politicians more than a problem with the EU. Politicians have promised any amount of old bolleaux over the years only for them to renege or reinterpret their promises. In this case the EU is the subject.
If the country really cared they would have voted UKIP and we would be out of it by now. Except they realise that UKIP politicians are at best as bad and arguably worse than the lot we have at the moment.
(I don't think politicians are lying duplicitous b*st*rds, btw, but I do think they try to square a lot of circles.)
The Remain side must look at the EU for what it really is, not what their ideal version of it is. It is a political union designed to create a superstate, not just a loose economic partnership with harmonisation of goods standards.
Just as I am voting to Leave knowing that it will cause some extent of economic uncertainty in the short term, the remain side must do so knowing that it will lead Britain down the path of further marginalisation under the current deal, or having to go all in.0 -
You have a particular position on what our goals within the EU ought to be and interpret the lack of progress of your agenda as a sign of our powerlessness rather than your own marginalisation.Richard_Tyndall said:No we don't. We have been a key actor by remaining somewhat remote from Europe and only getting involved when absolutely necessary. Being inside the EU actually reduces our powers not increases them. We have seen for 40 years or more how powerless we are to stop the development of EU statehood and there is nothing that will change that.
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Luckyguy1983 said:
They really are an utterly deplorable parasite lodged in the underbelly of the Conservative party.Charles said:
They think they're going to win, so they don't need it.MP_SE said:I am slightly confused as to where the Sovereignty Bill has disappeared to.
If the Conservative party without the Cameronite faction is so awful and unelectable, it seems a good solution for the Cameronites to move on and form their own party. Their miraculous electability will obviously shine through, and the old Tory party can finally be discredited and rejected. Or not. </blockquote
Maybe the right of the Conservative party would be better forming their own party/ making some sort of alliance with UKIP, if winning elections is so umpalatable.0 -
There is no protection from ever closer union nor from discrimination EZ vs non-EZ. It simply does not exist. I am afraid if you are basing your views on those myths you are going to be very disappointed.TOPPING said:
No ever closer union, no currency union, no discrimination EZ vs non-EZ.Richard_Tyndall said:
No we don't. We have been a key actor by remaining somewhat remote from Europe and only getting involved when absolutely necessary. Being inside the EU actually reduces our powers not increases them. We have seen for 40 years or more how powerless we are to stop the development of EU statehood and there is nothing that will change that.williamglenn said:
This argument completely ignores geopolitics and is an abnegation of Britain historic role as a key actor on the European continent. For as long as there is an EU, we need to be in it.MaxPB said:
No, we just won't be in it. That's the point of leaving. Yes we can still have some kind of relationship with the EU state but we wouldn't be governed by it. We would be a completely separate nation state with no political ties to the superstate, our companies would be bound to EU state standards when selling to the EU, but beyond that we would just live peaceably with it.TOPPING said:How is us leaving not going to end up with a superstate on our doorstep? Do you think they will abandon all plans if we leave? Will we be less marginalised if we leave than if we stay?
For me it is a logic fail.
I think you are unduly pessimistic about our prospects if we stay in. But you know that as we have had this conversation before several times so perhaps best leave it there.
The very definition of "somewhat remote".0 -
It would appear odd at first glance, but its more the IMF that has pushed the agenda for Dave. He's simply making himself a laughing stock and the lack of a coherent leave plan from Vote Leave has let him off the hook.TheScreamingEagles said:I think I've realised why Leavers are so grumpy.
The Ipsos Mori poll show the voters don't believe Dave's War and Peace lines yet there's still a swing to Remain.
Remarkable.
I don't think the gap will be that wide in the end, but a turning point has been reached from which I don't think Leave will recover, credibility has been stretched too far. Nobody is believable so people will cling to Nurse.0 -
NEW THREAD NEW THREAD
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Maybe i am - if this poll is true then I've totally misread the character of the British people.TheScreamingEagles said:
They'd still vote him back in as PM.GIN1138 said:
That lying, treacherous quisling Cameron abandoned the idea after he lied to the British people to get himself elected.... How did it all go so wrong...MP_SE said:I am slightly confused as to where the Sovereignty Bill has disappeared to.
Perhaps you're out touch?
I thought people like Plato, Cyclefree, Max PB, Philip Thompson, Sean Fear, Pulpstar, Sunil, Robert Smithson, Charles, Morris Dancer, Richard Tyndall and Gin1138 represented the common ground of British politics.
If it turns out I (and they) are wrong then there will be a lot of thinking to do.
I myself won't have much interest in carrying on in politics. So enjoy it.0 -
There is a lot of cognitive, projection and confirmation bias happening here today...
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Private Eye cover 75.Luckyguy1983 said:
Quite sensible again.dr_spyn said:
According to Paul Waugh, it was the first time in 33 years that Corbyn had turned up for the Queen's Speech. No wonder he looked so bloody miserable.Luckyguy1983 said:
Strikes me as quite sensible.rottenborough said:It appears from video doing the rounds that Corbyn just completed ignored Cameron and resisted all attempts for a little small talk on the way into Queen's talk. What's wrong with these people?
I imagine there's a limit to the pleasure one can derive from seeing the Queen in her geegaws being used as a ventriloquists dummy for Cameron's verbal effluent every year.
http://www.private-eye.co.uk/covers/cover-750 -
Both of those polls were 2000+TheScreamingEagles said:
No crowing here, just calming down the more hyperbolic posters.MonikerDiCanio said:
A week is a long time in politics. Don't crow just yet my friend.TheScreamingEagles said:I think I've realised why Leavers are so grumpy.
The Ipsos Mori poll show the voters don't believe Dave's War and Peace lines yet there's still a swing to Remain.
Remarkable.
A single vote has yet to be cast.
I so won't be doing an IOS
Once you start falling below 2000 it gets more iffy. Many of the polls showing a remain lead were about 1000 and some less than that (800 for a couple).
Suspect it reflects the increasing difficulty phone polling companies have getting people to co-operate rather than not answering or slamming the phone down when they realise it is an unsolicited call centre phoning.
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~ 9:55 pm May 7th 2015TheScreamingEagles said:
No crowing here, just calming down the more hyperbolic posters.MonikerDiCanio said:
A week is a long time in politics. Don't crow just yet my friend.TheScreamingEagles said:I think I've realised why Leavers are so grumpy.
The Ipsos Mori poll show the voters don't believe Dave's War and Peace lines yet there's still a swing to Remain.
Remarkable.
A single vote has yet to be cast.
I so won't be doing an IOScompouter2 said:EICIPM :-)
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When we vote REMAIN we should sign up to the full superstate package. The Euro. The single army. The single President. The anthem. The flag. All of it. We can't continue with our present absurd position of moaning endlessly about the whole thing but continuing to want to be a part of it.Casino_Royale said:
It's hard to disagree with that. If the British are a lot of grumblers but secretly quite europhile in the ballot box then our current position makes no sense.
We have to take revenge on Cameron and particularly Osborne for what they've done but when they've gone I think we must seize our destiny by casting ourselves away from being a sovereign nation and accepting, even embracing, the face we are mere insignificant State on the outmost part of the United Sates Of Europe...0 -
Speaking as a mathematician rather than a politician, no, really not. Obviously the more complete and representative sample you have, the better, to the point where you canvass everyone who will vote and if they all tell the truth you have a variation of 0.00%. But it's a logarithmic curve and it flattens out very quickly after 1000. If you imagine picking green and red apples out of a tub, you'll get a very similar result whether you pick 1000 or 2000 or 10000 - what you need is enough to establish the pattern.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Once you start falling below 2000 it gets more iffy.
Where polls can go hideously wrong is in their sampling and assumptions, and since we're all scrabbling to decide how to predict differential turnout in the referendum, it makes good sense to look at a variety of polls making different assumptions. If I was a Leaver I certainly wouldn't freak out over one poll. But the sample size isn't really the issue.0
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