politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » David Herdson say pursuing reform in the EU isn’t a pipe-dr

Stark_Dawning said:

I get the feeling that Obama's intervention is a big nail in Leave's coffin. Who have they got to counter that sort of heavy artillery? John Howard?

The comments on the back-up forum last night suggested quite a few people now know deep down what the result is going to be - hence the lashing out in an increasingly wild fashion.

MarkHopkins said:

US President Barack Obama has told an audience of young British people to reject isolationism, pessimism and cynicism.

http://news.sky.com/story/1683935/obama-tells-uk-reject-pessimism-and-cynicism

Smearing anyone who wants freedom from the EU. Sorry Remainers, but this is insulting. You may like it, but it is still insulting to many British people.

Cameron has failed to make his arguments, so he's trying to use a well-respected US President to do the job for him. I find this level of interference extraordinary, so probably shows behind the scenes how desperate Cameron & Osborne are.

I don't suppose Obama noticed the levels of youth unemployment in the EU.

I almost felt sorry for him when the attention seeking transgender woman spoke up, then I remembered last night's speech.

The Obama thing hardens, but does not change opinion.

Indigo said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Plato_Says said:

The mess that was Greece over the Euro showed me that the determination of the wagon circlers is quite extraordinary.

Nothing was going to deflect them from powering ahead, Merkel over migrants is another. The EU is an appalling mess. If you wouldn't vote to join now, why vote Remain?

Even at the depths of the Greek crisis, Greeks favoured both staying in the EU and staying in the Euro, they just did not want austerity. When forced to choose they opted for the EU.

Country that would be a basketcase outside the EU wants to stay in the EU shock. Sooner or later the Germans will get tired of paying for their basketcasery.

The countries in the EU that are most "EU"-sceptic are:

- ourselves
- Italy
- Austria
- Poland
- Finland
- Sweden

In the middle there is:

- France
- the Netherlands
- Belgium

And the positively EU-theusiastic (usually 2-1, and often 3-1 in favour of "The EU has been good for my country"):

- Ireland
- the Baltics
- Germany
- Greece
- Spain
- Portugal

Hasn't Obama got a golf game to go to?

Danny565 said:

ANECDOTE ALERT

I think the Obama thing could play very badly for Remain. At my work this morning, people (even ones who said they liked Obama generally) were incensed at the idea of "America again coming over and treating us like their poodle, telling us what to do".

TBH, I think it will have bugger all effect. We'll benefit from people not liking being told what to do by foreigners. But Remain will benefit from those who were nervous. I reckon it'll be a wash.

By far the most damaging thing that has happened to Leave was the decision not to go the EEA route. I've gone from enthusiastic Leaver, to resigned one. It wouldn't take much to stop me bothering going to the polling station at all.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Hasn't Obama got a golf game to go to?

No .... but he hit a hole for REMAIN yesterday and LEAVE look like they've missed the cut.

Incoming ..... Four !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Indigo said:

timetrompette said:

Indigo said:

kle4 said:

Again, you'd hope. It hasn’t worked so far, no reason it should. Maybe they could just cut their bloody spending, yet apparently that reform is impossible.

There is a demand for more money waiting in the wings for after the referendum, it was tabled earlier in the year to expand the EU budget by a significant amount, but inexplicably put in a drawer for a few months when the referendum came along.

Luckily Cameron is good at resisting those demands. Remember the £1.7 billion that Osborne paid over last year. Ah. I see.

Shhh don't tell Mr Nabavi, he still hasn't come to terms with us having paid the money over.

To think he was supposedly undecided at the time of his denial despite all the evidence which suggested otherwise...

foxinsoxuk said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

FPT

foxinsoxuk said:

I am happy that there is some regulation of animal husbandry to a minimal standard. I would be happier if those standards were far higher, but am quite able to apply those standards in my own life. I do this mostly by eating less meat, and am vegetarian most days (very affordable in the UK).

Obesity is very much a class issue, it would serve poor people as much as anyone else to eat less food and be more selective in what they eat.

So to clarify, you are happy that British farmers are forced to observe minimum standards, but you are also happy that inferior food products that fall *well* below that standard can be imported and compete without labelling. Unless born of a simple malevolence for British food production, how do you justify this position?

That is already the situation, with both Danish bacon and also Thai chicken for example.

I would like to see evidence that chlorinated chicken is harmful, if there is evidence then trade barriers are reasonable.

I am aware of that. It's not a situation I am happy with. This clearly takes it to a new level. Your comments would imply both that you agree with the current arrangements, and want to make the situation significantly more extreme. I was seeking to clarify if that were true.

As a doctor, I'm quite alarmed at your apparent approach to health and nutrition. The body can assimilate and cope with any number of stresses and assaults. Then it stops coping. I suspect you are aware of this - a few posts ago you were talking about suicide by food. Now you're suggesting chlorinated chicken is fine (but you would of course walk straight past it on your way to the organic aisle).

You seemed very cross about the harm to patients from junior doctors not getting double bubble (or whatever) for weekends, but you demonstrate airy unconcern about vile unhealthy foods entering the national diet. Am I wasting my time looking for any coherence in your thoughts on this?

rcs1000 said:

Danny565 said:

ANECDOTE ALERT

I think the Obama thing could play very badly for Remain. At my work this morning, people (even ones who said they liked Obama generally) were incensed at the idea of "America again coming over and treating us like their poodle, telling us what to do".

TBH, I think it will have bugger all effect. We'll benefit from people not liking being told what to do by foreigners. But Remain will benefit from those who were nervous. I reckon it'll be a wash.

By far the most damaging thing that has happened to Leave was the decision not to go the EEA route. I've gone from enthusiastic Leaver, to resigned one. It wouldn't take much to stop me bothering going to the polling station at all.

Ask dad what to do ....

Jonathan said:

The Obama thing hardens, but does not change opinion.

I concur – for those already committed, while the latest polling showed 57% will just ignore it.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/723658984037748739

He was a bloody foreigner who never stepped foot in England.

Bloody foreigners coming over here and taking over our patron saint.

It was Edward III - the king who wanted to become French - who made Saint George patron saint of England.

There's no shortage of home grown alternatives:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Anglo-Saxon_saints

Indigo said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

The EU will struggle whilst some of its members have a currency union sans a political union.

They need to resolve quickly

You mean we have to join the Euro?

No.

So you mean we will have to leave. Those are the only two options based on your first statement.

No. I was talking purely about the Eurozone countries. It is entirely possible to be a member of the EU without being a member of the Eurozone

For the moment.

The Western non-Eurozone EU countries are us, Denmark and Sweden.

They all have one thing in common: they are big net contributors.

Attempting to force any of them to use the Euro (by making the treaties say something they explicitly don't) would result in those countries leaving the EU.

I'm trying to imagine a world where the EU went down a path that would remove three of the six largest contributors to the EU budget. And failing.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/723658984037748739

He was a bloody foreigner who never stepped foot in England.

Bloody foreigners coming over here and taking over our patron saint.

Still in Tory Racist mode, I see?

Apparently I'm in Traitorous Pro EU mode for the next few months.

There's still time for you to have your Luke 15:7 moment.

Indigo said:

rcs1000 said:

By far the most damaging thing that has happened to Leave was the decision not to go the EEA route. I've gone from enthusiastic Leaver, to resigned one. It wouldn't take much to stop me bothering going to the polling station at all.

Free trade Libertarians are a tiny minority, Leave had a choice of annoying a few thousand people like you, or several million WWC and Kipper voters. They didn't have a choice.

Yes they did,

There are plenty of ways to restrict immigration in an EEA world. Best of all, they'd be free market ones, and therefore massively less economically damaging than a bureaucratic system.

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I get the feeling that Obama's intervention is a big nail in Leave's coffin. Who have they got to counter that sort of heavy artillery? John Howard?

Vladimir Putin?

So far Mr Putin has left the decision to the british public.

Is there something wrong with that ?

Has he?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-20/from-rape-claim-to-brexit-putin-machine-tears-at-europe-s-seams

He is a chess rather than poker player though.

I haven't seen him stand on a podium and threaten my country as my PM eggs him on.

But that's why I said "so far" there's still 2 months or so for Cameron to arrange it.

He prefers to make donations to anti-fracking groups in Europe. That's Putin's preferred form of influence.

Indigo said:

rcs1000 said:

I'm trying to imagine a world where the EU went down a path that would remove three of the six largest contributors to the EU budget. And failing.

The EU always plays the long game. It will be a war of attrition and salami tactics. They wont be stupid enough to force people to try and join the Euro, there will just be a succession of very minor looking changes that will slowly move various groups in society behind joining the Euro, until at some point it will seem like the natural thing to do to the opinion formers in society.. then as usual the rest of society will get shafted.

Dude.

You are the sole factor pushing me towards Remain.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Remember all the silly scare stories at the time (CH4 ran a classic one that was total bollocks)

"Visa applications from international students to study at British universities are up by 17% since 2010, whilst visa applications to our elite Russell Group universities up by 39%," he said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36054748

The top universities in the UK are some of the best in the World, and attract the most able students from around the globe. They also set their fees accordingly for international students, and all now market aggressively in Asia and the Middle East.

The bottom half of universities in the UK are some of the most average around, and it's outrageous that they can charge so much in fees for such a substandard product, even to local students.

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I get the feeling that Obama's intervention is a big nail in Leave's coffin. Who have they got to counter that sort of heavy artillery? John Howard?

Vladimir Putin?

So far Mr Putin has left the decision to the british public.

Is there something wrong with that ?

Has he?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-20/from-rape-claim-to-brexit-putin-machine-tears-at-europe-s-seams

He is a chess rather than poker player though.

I haven't seen him stand on a podium and threaten my country as my PM eggs him on.

But that's why I said "so far" there's still 2 months or so for Cameron to arrange it.

He prefers to make donations to anti-fracking groups in Europe. That's Putin's preferred form of influence.

It's a bit like us materially supporting insurrectionist groups in the Middle East - just without all the beheadings and stuff.

rcs1000 said:

Indigo said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Plato_Says said:

The mess that was Greece over the Euro showed me that the determination of the wagon circlers is quite extraordinary.

Nothing was going to deflect them from powering ahead, Merkel over migrants is another. The EU is an appalling mess. If you wouldn't vote to join now, why vote Remain?

Even at the depths of the Greek crisis, Greeks favoured both staying in the EU and staying in the Euro, they just did not want austerity. When forced to choose they opted for the EU.

Country that would be a basketcase outside the EU wants to stay in the EU shock. Sooner or later the Germans will get tired of paying for their basketcasery.

The countries in the EU that are most "EU"-sceptic are:

- ourselves
- Italy
- Austria
- Poland
- Finland
- Sweden

In the middle there is:

- France
- the Netherlands
- Belgium

And the positively EU-theusiastic (usually 2-1, and often 3-1 in favour of "The EU has been good for my country"):

- Ireland
- the Baltics
- Germany
- Greece
- Spain
- Portugal

A close similarity to which countries financially benefit.

There are exceptions - the Baltics want protection from Russia and Germany wants the EU as a conduit for its influence.

Luckyguy1983 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

FPT

foxinsoxuk said:

I am happy that there is some regulation of animal husbandry to a minimal standard. I would be happier if those standards were far higher, but am quite able to apply those standards in my own life. I do this mostly by eating less meat, and am vegetarian most days (very affordable in the UK).

Obesity is very much a class issue, it would serve poor people as much as anyone else to eat less food and be more selective in what they eat.

So to clarify, you are happy that British farmers are forced to observe minimum standards, but you are also happy that inferior food products that fall *well* below that standard can be imported and compete without labelling. Unless born of a simple malevolence for British food production, how do you justify this position?

That is already the situation, with both Danish bacon and also Thai chicken for example.

I would like to see evidence that chlorinated chicken is harmful, if there is evidence then trade barriers are reasonable.

I am aware of that. It's not a situation I am happy with. This clearly takes it to a new level. Your comments would imply both that you agree with the current arrangements, and want to make the situation significantly more extreme. I was seeking to clarify if that were true.

As a doctor, I'm quite alarmed at your apparent approach to health and nutrition. The body can assimilate and cope with any number of stresses and assaults. Then it stops coping. I suspect you are aware of this - a few posts ago you were talking about suicide by food. Now you're suggesting chlorinated chicken is fine (but you would of course walk straight past it on your way to the organic aisle).

You seemed very cross about the harm to patients from junior doctors not getting double bubble (or whatever) for weekends, but you demonstrate airy unconcern about vile unhealthy foods entering the national diet. Am I wasting my time looking for any coherence in your thoughts on this?

There is a balance to be had between ethical food and cheap food. I am happy for our government to decide on this, and to follow my own conscience for my own behaviour.

The junior strike is about many issues in the contract, not just pay. My objection to it is mostly that it worsens rather than improves retention, and also that Hunts dictatorial style of "take it or leave it" management bodes ill for many other issues that need resolving in the NHS. The biggest threats to patient safety in the NHS are poorly trained staff, rota vacancies, and staff spread too thinly. Hunts contract tackles neither issue.

Indigo said:

timetrompette said:

Indigo said:

kle4 said:

Again, you'd hope. It hasn’t worked so far, no reason it should. Maybe they could just cut their bloody spending, yet apparently that reform is impossible.

There is a demand for more money waiting in the wings for after the referendum, it was tabled earlier in the year to expand the EU budget by a significant amount, but inexplicably put in a drawer for a few months when the referendum came along.

Luckily Cameron is good at resisting those demands. Remember the £1.7 billion that Osborne paid over last year. Ah. I see.

Shhh don't tell Mr Nabavi, he still hasn't come to terms with us having paid the money over.

Quite a contrast between how RN proclaimed a triumph when Cameron postured about 'halving the bill' to his total silence after the full extra money was paid over.

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I get the feeling that Obama's intervention is a big nail in Leave's coffin. Who have they got to counter that sort of heavy artillery? John Howard?

Vladimir Putin?

So far Mr Putin has left the decision to the british public.

Is there something wrong with that ?

Has he?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-20/from-rape-claim-to-brexit-putin-machine-tears-at-europe-s-seams

He is a chess rather than poker player though.

I haven't seen him stand on a podium and threaten my country as my PM eggs him on.

But that's why I said "so far" there's still 2 months or so for Cameron to arrange it.

He prefers to make donations to anti-fracking groups in Europe. That's Putin's preferred form of influence.

that's simply investment banking

another_richard said:

rcs1000 said:

Indigo said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Plato_Says said:

The mess that was Greece over the Euro showed me that the determination of the wagon circlers is quite extraordinary.

Nothing was going to deflect them from powering ahead, Merkel over migrants is another. The EU is an appalling mess. If you wouldn't vote to join now, why vote Remain?

Even at the depths of the Greek crisis, Greeks favoured both staying in the EU and staying in the Euro, they just did not want austerity. When forced to choose they opted for the EU.

Country that would be a basketcase outside the EU wants to stay in the EU shock. Sooner or later the Germans will get tired of paying for their basketcasery.

The countries in the EU that are most "EU"-sceptic are:

- ourselves
- Italy
- Austria
- Poland
- Finland
- Sweden

In the middle there is:

- France
- the Netherlands
- Belgium

And the positively EU-theusiastic (usually 2-1, and often 3-1 in favour of "The EU has been good for my country"):

- Ireland
- the Baltics
- Germany
- Greece
- Spain
- Portugal

A close similarity to which countries financially benefit.

There are exceptions - the Baltics want protection from Russia and Germany wants the EU as a conduit for its influence.

With the exception of Poland - which is a huge benificiary of subsidies - I think that's true. Ireland, Spain and the Baltics have gone from poor countries to rich countries in two decades as members of the EU.

Luckyguy1983 said:

JackW said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I get the feeling that Obama's intervention is a big nail in Leave's coffin. Who have they got to counter that sort of heavy artillery? John Howard?

I'm floored by that verdict; I really am.

Me too .... Frankie Howerd would be better for LEAVE than John Howard and titter ye not has been dead for near on 25 years !!

Ha? Ha?

Don't mock the afflicted ..... Ooh - 'ere - NO ... Yes Missus

The prologue .. It came to pass that Luckyguy1983 said :

Nay, Nay and thrice nay .... LEAVE !! ....

another_richard said:

rcs1000 said:

Indigo said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Plato_Says said:

The mess that was Greece over the Euro showed me that the determination of the wagon circlers is quite extraordinary.

Nothing was going to deflect them from powering ahead, Merkel over migrants is another. The EU is an appalling mess. If you wouldn't vote to join now, why vote Remain?

Even at the depths of the Greek crisis, Greeks favoured both staying in the EU and staying in the Euro, they just did not want austerity. When forced to choose they opted for the EU.

Country that would be a basketcase outside the EU wants to stay in the EU shock. Sooner or later the Germans will get tired of paying for their basketcasery.

The countries in the EU that are most "EU"-sceptic are:

- ourselves
- Italy
- Austria
- Poland
- Finland
- Sweden

In the middle there is:

- France
- the Netherlands
- Belgium

And the positively EU-theusiastic (usually 2-1, and often 3-1 in favour of "The EU has been good for my country"):

- Ireland
- the Baltics
- Germany
- Greece
- Spain
- Portugal

A close similarity to which countries financially benefit.

There are exceptions - the Baltics want protection from Russia and Germany wants the EU as a conduit for its influence.

I think the Euro has benefitted Germany most of all.

Richard_Tyndall said:

timetrompette said:

foxinsoxuk said:

rcs1000 said:

Danny565 said:

ANECDOTE ALERT

I think the Obama thing could play very badly for Remain. At my work this morning, people (even ones who said they liked Obama generally) were incensed at the idea of "America again coming over and treating us like their poodle, telling us what to do".

TBH, I think it will have bugger all effect. We'll benefit from people not liking being told what to do by foreigners. But Remain will benefit from those who were nervous. I reckon it'll be a wash.

By far the most damaging thing that has happened to Leave was the decision not to go the EEA route. I've gone from enthusiastic Leaver, to resigned one. It wouldn't take much to stop me bothering going to the polling station at all.

Come over to the dark side. We have lebkuchen....

And the prospect of the NHS being broken up when TTIP goes through, and the market is opened up to US healthcare businesses. Yay!

I keep hearing about this but at the moment no one seems to have presented me with any evidence of it at all. I was of the understanding that the TTIP negotiations are not even finished yet and that TTIP is a very different thing to the TTP deal that was struck in the Pacific. So exactly what is this claim being based on?

I would love to be able to use the example of TTIP as a means of persuading left wing voters to support Brexit but I am not going to tell people it is a threat if it turns out to be just another scare story.

I posted a very long explanation of TTIP/ISDS and the NHS on a previous thread, and the scaremongering is ridiculous.

Neither the TTIP (or indeed the TPP) would force the privatisation (or anything like it) of the NHS.

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I get the feeling that Obama's intervention is a big nail in Leave's coffin. Who have they got to counter that sort of heavy artillery? John Howard?

Vladimir Putin?

So far Mr Putin has left the decision to the british public.

Is there something wrong with that ?

Has he?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-20/from-rape-claim-to-brexit-putin-machine-tears-at-europe-s-seams

He is a chess rather than poker player though.

I haven't seen him stand on a podium and threaten my country as my PM eggs him on.

But that's why I said "so far" there's still 2 months or so for Cameron to arrange it.

He prefers to make donations to anti-fracking groups in Europe. That's Putin's preferred form of influence.

Putin donates to DECC ?

another_richard said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I get the feeling that Obama's intervention is a big nail in Leave's coffin. Who have they got to counter that sort of heavy artillery? John Howard?

Vladimir Putin?

So far Mr Putin has left the decision to the british public.

Is there something wrong with that ?

Has he?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-20/from-rape-claim-to-brexit-putin-machine-tears-at-europe-s-seams

He is a chess rather than poker player though.

I haven't seen him stand on a podium and threaten my country as my PM eggs him on.

But that's why I said "so far" there's still 2 months or so for Cameron to arrange it.

He prefers to make donations to anti-fracking groups in Europe. That's Putin's preferred form of influence.

Putin donates to DECC ?

lol

rcs1000 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

timetrompette said:

foxinsoxuk said:

rcs1000 said:

Danny565 said:

ANECDOTE ALERT

I think the Obama thing could play very badly for Remain. At my work this morning, people (even ones who said they liked Obama generally) were incensed at the idea of "America again coming over and treating us like their poodle, telling us what to do".

TBH, I think it will have bugger all effect. We'll benefit from people not liking being told what to do by foreigners. But Remain will benefit from those who were nervous. I reckon it'll be a wash.

By far the most damaging thing that has happened to Leave was the decision not to go the EEA route. I've gone from enthusiastic Leaver, to resigned one. It wouldn't take much to stop me bothering going to the polling station at all.

Come over to the dark side. We have lebkuchen....

And the prospect of the NHS being broken up when TTIP goes through, and the market is opened up to US healthcare businesses. Yay!

I keep hearing about this but at the moment no one seems to have presented me with any evidence of it at all. I was of the understanding that the TTIP negotiations are not even finished yet and that TTIP is a very different thing to the TTP deal that was struck in the Pacific. So exactly what is this claim being based on?

I would love to be able to use the example of TTIP as a means of persuading left wing voters to support Brexit but I am not going to tell people it is a threat if it turns out to be just another scare story.

I posted a very long explanation of TTIP/ISDS and the NHS on a previous thread, and the scaremongering is ridiculous.

Neither the TTIP (or indeed the TPP) would force the privatisation (or anything like it) of the NHS.

I kind of figured that was the case. Missed most of the previous thread as I didn't get the hang of the non-PB.com thing.

timetrompette said:

foxinsoxuk said:

rcs1000 said:

Danny565 said:

ANECDOTE ALERT

I think the Obama thing could play very badly for Remain. At my work this morning, people (even ones who said they liked Obama generally) were incensed at the idea of "America again coming over and treating us like their poodle, telling us what to do".

TBH, I think it will have bugger all effect. We'll benefit from people not liking being told what to do by foreigners. But Remain will benefit from those who were nervous. I reckon it'll be a wash.

By far the most damaging thing that has happened to Leave was the decision not to go the EEA route. I've gone from enthusiastic Leaver, to resigned one. It wouldn't take much to stop me bothering going to the polling station at all.

Come over to the dark side. We have lebkuchen....

And the prospect of the NHS being broken up when TTIP goes through, and the market is opened up to US healthcare businesses. Yay!

Any trade deal with the USA would encompass TTIP, wherever we are in the queue, as it is mostly the UK that is pushing it at EU level. As such it is not a factor in my decision in the referendum.

Every single "ooh", "ah", gasp and pause in a Frankie Howerd sketch was scripted. Leave would benefit from a similarly taut script.

Stark_Dawning said:

rcs1000 said:

Danny565 said:

ANECDOTE ALERT

I think the Obama thing could play very badly for Remain. At my work this morning, people (even ones who said they liked Obama generally) were incensed at the idea of "America again coming over and treating us like their poodle, telling us what to do".

TBH, I think it will have bugger all effect. We'll benefit from people not liking being told what to do by foreigners. But Remain will benefit from those who were nervous. I reckon it'll be a wash.

By far the most damaging thing that has happened to Leave was the decision not to go the EEA route. I've gone from enthusiastic Leaver, to resigned one. It wouldn't take much to stop me bothering going to the polling station at all.

Who's made that decision for Leave though? Who has the authority to make it? I'm not being sarcastic here. Leave's strength was that it doesn't have leaders and doesn't have a position. Has one section with an agenda assumed control?

I think that decision was made by those running Vote Leave once they had been assigned the official status. Like Robert it is not a decision I am happy with but I just have to live with it given that the worst possible outcome from my perspective is staying in the EU.

taffys said:

There's a lot of talk about the right being incensed by Obama, but I think that misses the point.

It is Dave who has incensed the right. They don;t give a toss about Obama.

spot on

I am coming to the conclusion I live in a very atypical bubble. I rarely if ever hear anyone at my work talking about the referendum, it's never a conversation subject around the family dinner table and I have yet to come across any real life campaigners.

Luckyguy1983 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

timetrompette said:

foxinsoxuk said:

rcs1000 said:

Danny565 said:

ANECDOTE ALERT

I think the Obama thing could play very badly for Remain. At my work this morning, people (even ones who said they liked Obama generally) were incensed at the idea of "America again coming over and treating us like their poodle, telling us what to do".

TBH, I think it will have bugger all effect. We'll benefit from people not liking being told what to do by foreigners. But Remain will benefit from those who were nervous. I reckon it'll be a wash.

By far the most damaging thing that has happened to Leave was the decision not to go the EEA route. I've gone from enthusiastic Leaver, to resigned one. It wouldn't take much to stop me bothering going to the polling station at all.

Come over to the dark side. We have lebkuchen....

And the prospect of the NHS being broken up when TTIP goes through, and the market is opened up to US healthcare businesses. Yay!

I keep hearing about this but at the moment no one seems to have presented me with any evidence of it at all. I was of the understanding that the TTIP negotiations are not even finished yet and that TTIP is a very different thing to the TTP deal that was struck in the Pacific. So exactly what is this claim being based on?

I would love to be able to use the example of TTIP as a means of persuading left wing voters to support Brexit but I am not going to tell people it is a threat if it turns out to be just another scare story.

A threat by its nature is unproven. Equally unproven are people saying that TTIP will be great, and that its opponents 'don't understand it'. No, we don't, and nor do others who've never read it.

But my point is that the threat has to be based on something. One could just as easily say that TTIP will lead to the extinction of all hedgehogs. No one has yet been able to explain exactly what part of TTIP means that the NHS would be exposed to enforced privitisation?

rcs1000 said:

timetrompette said:

rcs1000 said:

timetrompette said:

foxinsoxuk said:

rcs1000 said:

Danny565 said:

ANECDOTE ALERT

I think the Obama thing could play very badly for Remain. At my work this morning, people (even ones who said they liked Obama generally) were incensed at the idea of "America again coming over and treating us like their poodle, telling us what to do".

TBH, I think it will have bugger all effect. We'll benefit from people not liking being told what to do by foreigners. But Remain will benefit from those who were nervous. I reckon it'll be a wash.

By far the most damaging thing that has happened to Leave was the decision not to go the EEA route. I've gone from enthusiastic Leaver, to resigned one. It wouldn't take much to stop me bothering going to the polling station at all.

Come over to the dark side. We have lebkuchen....

And the prospect of the NHS being broken up when TTIP goes through, and the market is opened up to US healthcare businesses. Yay!

You don't understand ISDS and TTIP.

Explain away then. We won't have improved healthcare from allowing access to US businesses? That's actually disappointing.

American companies can offer health care services in the UK today. They would still be able to after TTIP.

How do you think TTIP would affect the NHS?

Isn't it more about procurement,?who can and can't bid for contracts, and under what terms? Not that I know much about it, to be fair.

rcs1000 said:

Indigo said:

rcs1000 said:

I'm trying to imagine a world where the EU went down a path that would remove three of the six largest contributors to the EU budget. And failing.

The EU always plays the long game. It will be a war of attrition and salami tactics. They wont be stupid enough to force people to try and join the Euro, there will just be a succession of very minor looking changes that will slowly move various groups in society behind joining the Euro, until at some point it will seem like the natural thing to do to the opinion formers in society.. then as usual the rest of society will get shafted.

Dude.

You are the sole factor pushing me towards Remain.

You obviously missed Farage on Any Questions today. Or Maybe Indigo IS Farage!

I have visitors in the armed forces staying this weekend. Apparently there was an incident at an evening event on Thursday, following which two corporals came to blows, finishing up in the cells overnight. The cause? Disagreeing about the referendum.

In a sense it's good to know we have such a highbrow military.

rcs1000 said:

another_richard said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Alanbrooke said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I get the feeling that Obama's intervention is a big nail in Leave's coffin. Who have they got to counter that sort of heavy artillery? John Howard?

Vladimir Putin?

So far Mr Putin has left the decision to the british public.

Is there something wrong with that ?

Has he?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-20/from-rape-claim-to-brexit-putin-machine-tears-at-europe-s-seams

He is a chess rather than poker player though.

I haven't seen him stand on a podium and threaten my country as my PM eggs him on.

But that's why I said "so far" there's still 2 months or so for Cameron to arrange it.

He prefers to make donations to anti-fracking groups in Europe. That's Putin's preferred form of influence.

Putin donates to DECC ?

My tea just spilled out my mouth :

There is ZERO chance of fracking ever succeeding in Britain until local people gain direct financial benefits from it.

A promise to pay taxes to the government of even the local council isn't going to compensate for the disruption and risk that fracking brings to the local people.

rcs1000 said:

Stark_Dawning said:

rcs1000 said:

Danny565 said:

ANECDOTE ALERT

I think the Obama thing could play very badly for Remain. At my work this morning, people (even ones who said they liked Obama generally) were incensed at the idea of "America again coming over and treating us like their poodle, telling us what to do".

TBH, I think it will have bugger all effect. We'll benefit from people not liking being told what to do by foreigners. But Remain will benefit from those who were nervous. I reckon it'll be a wash.

By far the most damaging thing that has happened to Leave was the decision not to go the EEA route. I've gone from enthusiastic Leaver, to resigned one. It wouldn't take much to stop me bothering going to the polling station at all.

Who's made that decision for Leave though? Who has the authority to make it? I'm not being sarcastic here. Leave's strength was that it doesn't have leaders and doesn't have a position. Has one section with an agenda assumed control?

Gove made a speech:

- no EEA
- no contributions to the EU budget
- no supremacy of EU law

While I'm obviously in favour of the last of these, and would like the second (although think it optimistic), the first is definitely something I'm very unhappy with.

Fair enough. Weird that Gove should be deciding policy though. His group is supposed to be making the case for an option in a referendum - not running for office.

foxinsoxuk said:

There is a balance to be had between ethical food and cheap food. I am happy for our government to decide on this, and to follow my own conscience for my own behaviour.

The junior strike is about many issues in the contract, not just pay. My objection to it is mostly that it worsens rather than improves retention, and also that Hunts dictatorial style of "take it or leave it" management bodes ill for many other issues that need resolving in the NHS. The biggest threats to patient safety in the NHS are poorly trained staff, rota vacancies, and staff spread too thinly. Hunts contract tackles neither issue.

The irony of someone who is paid a generous guaranteed income by a state monopoly arguing that farmers can f*ck off and keep being forced to provide decent food, competing with floods of cheap crap, bleached, hormone treated imports currently banned by the sainted EU, is a brain-teaser and a half. 'Let them eat chlorine'.

For all you film lovers out there...

https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/723874354598170624

Indigo said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

timetrompette said:

foxinsoxuk said:

rcs1000 said:

Danny565 said:

ANECDOTE ALERT

I think the Obama thing could play very badly for Remain. At my work this morning, people (even ones who said they liked Obama generally) were incensed at the idea of "America again coming over and treating us like their poodle, telling us what to do".

TBH, I think it will have bugger all effect. We'll benefit from people not liking being told what to do by foreigners. But Remain will benefit from those who were nervous. I reckon it'll be a wash.

By far the most damaging thing that has happened to Leave was the decision not to go the EEA route. I've gone from enthusiastic Leaver, to resigned one. It wouldn't take much to stop me bothering going to the polling station at all.

Come over to the dark side. We have lebkuchen....

And the prospect of the NHS being broken up when TTIP goes through, and the market is opened up to US healthcare businesses. Yay!

I keep hearing about this but at the moment no one seems to have presented me with any evidence of it at all. I was of the understanding that the TTIP negotiations are not even finished yet and that TTIP is a very different thing to the TTP deal that was struck in the Pacific. So exactly what is this claim being based on?

I would love to be able to use the example of TTIP as a means of persuading left wing voters to support Brexit but I am not going to tell people it is a threat if it turns out to be just another scare story.

A threat by its nature is unproven. Equally unproven are people saying that TTIP will be great, and that its opponents 'don't understand it'. No, we don't, and nor do others who've never read it.

Has anyone read it ? I thought the provisions were being kept secret at the moment (never a good sign) and all we had were a few leaks and some warm words as we wait for the official unveiling.

You can read the drafts, they're all online, See: http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2015/july/tradoc_153669.pdf

SouthamObserver said:

I am coming to the conclusion I live in a very atypical bubble. I rarely if ever hear anyone at my work talking about the referendum, it's never a conversation subject around the family dinner table and I have yet to come across any real life campaigners.

I was at a party last night and for the three minutes the referendum was mentioned it was about bad Boris looked. The most interesting comment was from a girl who arrived late to the conversation and all she added was "Urgh. Who'd want to F*** that"

taffys said:

It is Dave who has incensed the right. They don;t give a toss about Obama.

And how did he incense them?

By not meekly following the Farage script, like Boris.