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What is remarkable is the glee from Remainers over an American President talking shit about us if we do not do what he says. They have a very strange masochistic pleasure in being treated badly by foreign powers.0
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You mean the British aren't going to fight very hard for what we want and will roll over and give the US everything they want? Not the sort of deal I think that we really need.Layne said:Obama is an anti-British has-been. He is trying to treat us like a poodle: "Do what we say or suddenly you won't be our closest ally after all." Thankfully, Clinton, Trump, Cruz and Kasich all come from the more traditional school of thought where they don't treat their allies like crap. We will jump to the front of the queue when they realise we are more effective at getting a deal done than the French and Italians.
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Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.0
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Good job?blackburn63 said:Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
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I'm sure the Queen was thrilled about that !blackburn63 said:Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
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Please all spare a thought for Emily Thornberry on this most difficult day.0
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Perhaps she asked him to get to the back of the queue.Pulpstar said:
I'm sure the Queen was thrilled about that !blackburn63 said:Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
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Boo, hoo - the nasty US won't drop everything to give us a special trade deal if we leave the EU. They're horrid, Obama hates us because he's not a proper American, he has uppity African blood, it's not fair.Layne said:What is remarkable is the glee from Remainers over an American President talking shit about us if we do not do what he says. They have a very strange masochistic pleasure in being treated badly by foreign powers.
Grow some Leavers. It's pathetic!
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So having beaten Cameron up, Obama is off to Germany to tell all the Germans what a wonderful Chancellor they have
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/obama-ueber-merkel-ich-bin-stolz-dass-angela-meine-freundin-ist-14194905.html0 -
Of course the US are also probably not too happy about Brexit because it will put back negotiations on the EU back by a couple of years, at least. They will need to establish the post Brexit EU/British landscape before assessing the balance of risks within the EU/US trade deal.0
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Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.blackburn63 said:Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
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How is it insulting? New entrants to the queue (as we would be) always join at the back. That's not insulting, that's absolutely standard.taffys said:
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.SouthamObserver said:
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.taffys said:I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?0 -
He rode in the front with Philip!blackburn63 said:
Perhaps she asked him to get to the back of the queue.Pulpstar said:
I'm sure the Queen was thrilled about that !blackburn63 said:Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
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Indeed. That's what I've been saying for the last 24 hours. The US is acting entirely as you'd expect by game theory.Roger said:Predictably the most sensible comment from the Leavers has been from David Owen. Rather than think their case is improved by beating up the messenger he explained why in his view Obama thought it in the US's interests that the UK remained in the EU.
He then went on to explain why he didn't agree-and was reasonably persuasive. Though whether he can undo the damage done by the official spokespeople for Leave is doubtful.0 -
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.SouthamObserver said:
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.blackburn63 said:Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.0 -
The same role as he is playing in the official Leave campaign, absolutely none.blackburn63 said:
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.SouthamObserver said:
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.blackburn63 said:Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.0 -
He obviously does not understand queuing......do you think he's British.....might he be - you know (an immigrant)?Philip_Thompson said:
How is it insulting? New entrants to the queue (as we would be) always join at the back. That's not insulting, that's absolutely standard.taffys said:
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.SouthamObserver said:
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.taffys said:I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?0 -
Correct, thank you.Philip_Thompson said:
The same role as he is playing in the official Leave campaign, absolutely none.blackburn63 said:
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.SouthamObserver said:
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.blackburn63 said:Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.
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Layne said:
What is remarkable is the glee from Remainers over an American President talking shit about us if we do not do what he says. They have a very strange masochistic pleasure in being treated badly by foreign powers.
No - they just enjoy the sight of Raab, Johnson & Farage going apoplectic when their version of 'US Trade Policy' is contradicted by the US President's version of 'US Trade Policy'.
You've no one to blame but yourselves.0 -
Quite. The best Leave can do is manage to convince that Obama is pursuing US interests but are irrelevant because UK interests do not align with US interests (the problem being that a fundamental plank of the Leave case is that the UK interests are dependent on US actions). Failing that they have to try to convince that Obama is mistaken in what is in the US interest (Tricky). But really those are the only two viable strategies to try to advance their case in the referendum.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed. That's what I've been saying for the last 24 hours. The US is acting entirely as you'd expect by game theory.Roger said:Predictably the most sensible comment from the Leavers has been from David Owen. Rather than think their case is improved by beating up the messenger he explained why in his view Obama thought it in the US's interests that the UK remained in the EU.
He then went on to explain why he didn't agree-and was reasonably persuasive. Though whether he can undo the damage done by the official spokespeople for Leave is doubtful.
It is stupid to argue that Obama has no right to pursue the US interest as he sees fit. And all the stuff about Cameron is irrelevant as far as the referendum is concerned and focussed entirely on the fallout afterwards.
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Sending us to the back of a queue as a punishment for leaving the EU isn't a threat?Philip_Thompson said:
What "threat"?nigel4england said:
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?JackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
Well, it's a view.
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I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.0 -
Like Boris, Nigel Farage decided the best way to counter Obama was to imply that he is an uppity African. Like many of us, the Queen was no doubt embarrassed.blackburn63 said:
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.SouthamObserver said:
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.blackburn63 said:Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.
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But since the status quo isn't an option...!Philip_Thompson said:
No. It means you think the status quo is better than both deeper integration and leaving altogether.ThreeQuidder said:
But only if you're an expert in doublethink.Philip_Thompson said:
You can be simultaneously sceptical about the EU and deeper integration while being for Remaining in it.Plato_Says said:I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
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Try again!0 -
If Nigel did that he was silly. What did he say?SouthamObserver said:
Like Boris, Nigel Farage decided the best way to counter Obama was to imply that he is an uppity African. Like many of us, the Queen was no doubt embarrassed.blackburn63 said:
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.SouthamObserver said:
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.blackburn63 said:Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.0 -
Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.0 -
I thought the consensus was that Cameron wrote ittaffys said:
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.SouthamObserver said:
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.taffys said:I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?0 -
Which is a pity.Philip_Thompson said:
The same role as he is playing in the official Leave campaign, absolutely none.blackburn63 said:
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.SouthamObserver said:
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.blackburn63 said:Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.0 -
We already trade with the US. What Leave has been claiming is that post-Brexit we would quickly agree a deal with the US that would allow us to do so on better terms than is currently the case. Obama merely pointed out that is not going to happen. He did not talk down the UK, he exposed Leave claims for the delusions they are.blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
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Try again, substituting the word "consequence" instead of "punishment" and you will interpret correctly what he said.ThreeQuidder said:
Sending us to the back of a queue as a punishment for leaving the EU isn't a threat?Philip_Thompson said:
What "threat"?nigel4england said:
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?JackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
Well, it's a view.
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No it's not a f***ing threat. "If you join the queue you'll be starting at the back" is only a threat in the most deluded of minds.ThreeQuidder said:
Sending us to the back of a queue as a punishment for leaving the EU isn't a threat?Philip_Thompson said:
What "threat"?nigel4england said:
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?JackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
Well, it's a view.
Tell me, where do you normal enter a queue?
A: I normally join a queue at the back.
B: I normally push past everyone already in the queue and join at the front.
Personally when I enter a queue I go for A, I join at the back. That's the very concept of a queue.0 -
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.0 -
So much for non partisan discussion.SouthamObserver said:
We already trade with the US. What Leave has been claiming is that post-Brexit we would quickly agree a deal with the US that would allow us to do so on better terms than is currently the case. Obama merely pointed out that is not going to happen. He did not talk down the UK, he exposed Leave claims for the delusions they are.blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
You are throwing around scurrilous accusations today which is very revealing.
My point is if the queue stands at 100 countries we're in trouble, on the other hand......0 -
Incorrect again. A vote for Remain is a vote for the status quo. There will be no immediate changes if we vote Remain, hence it is the status quo.ThreeQuidder said:
But since the status quo isn't an option...!Philip_Thompson said:
No. It means you think the status quo is better than both deeper integration and leaving altogether.ThreeQuidder said:
But only if you're an expert in doublethink.Philip_Thompson said:
You can be simultaneously sceptical about the EU and deeper integration while being for Remaining in it.Plato_Says said:I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
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I do think that Cameron has wrecked his premiership with his fanatical pursuit of the Europhile cause. He is now a divisive figure who has split his party bitterly down the middle. He could more wisely have followed Harold Wilson and taken a backseat role. I think he would still have achieved his desired outcome,
As it stands he will surely face a V0C after the referendum. He should win this, but with a minority against him sufficient to damage his authority severely. He could still carry on of course but he will then face umpteen backbench revolts which will torpedo his legislative program.
And then there is the Tory conference in October. Boos, slow handclaps?0 -
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How do you think he should have phrased it?GIN1138 said:
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
Perhaps "lower down the queue" would have been better. Although then all the other countries currently involved in trade negotiations might have wanted to know where they currently were in the "queue" and whether they would be leapfrogged...
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I wouldn't expect Obama to go to the Isle of Mann during an election and tell them they'd be at the back of any queue. It's a total trashing of diplomatic protocol.SouthamObserver said:
Boo, hoo - the nasty US won't drop everything to give us a special trade deal if we leave the EU. They're horrid, Obama hates us because he's not a proper American, he has uppity African blood, it's not fair.Layne said:What is remarkable is the glee from Remainers over an American President talking shit about us if we do not do what he says. They have a very strange masochistic pleasure in being treated badly by foreign powers.
Grow some Leavers. It's pathetic!0 -
"There will be consequences" etcPhilip_Thompson said:
What "threat"? Back of the queue is a matter of fact, not threat. It would quickly change as a bilateral deal between us would be easy to write but we'll be starting largely from scratch while TTIP is already quite advanced.nigel4england said:
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?JackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
Seems infantile for every factual claim to be dismissed as a "threat".
Now there is a good day of sport and I have some positions to take, keep convincing yourself how wonderful Cameron is.0 -
This explains Sean's reaction. He is used to being ushered to the front of the queue on Mr. Murdoch's dimePhilip_Thompson said:No it's not a f***ing threat. "If you join the queue you'll be starting at the back" is only a threat in the most deluded of minds.
Tell me, where do you normal enter a queue?
A: I normally join a queue at the back.
B: I normally push past everyone already in the queue and join at the front.
Personally when I enter a queue I go for A, I join at the back. That's the very concept of a queue.0 -
Why would it make any difference if he had?Roger said:
I thought the consensus was that Cameron wrote ittaffys said:
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.SouthamObserver said:
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.taffys said:I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?0 -
Have you seen this?
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/farage-prepares-to-rebrand-ukip-as-an-online-movement-n2mdxgtptLuckyguy1983 said:
Which is a pity.Philip_Thompson said:
The same role as he is playing in the official Leave campaign, absolutely none.blackburn63 said:
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.SouthamObserver said:
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.blackburn63 said:Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.0 -
My takes on Obama's intervention:
1. Our relationship with America is irrelevant to whether we Brexit. What Obama said doesn't affect any concrete outcome.
2. It torpedoes Leave's implied claims that treaty renegotiations will be a breeze. They won't be. This applies most of all to our negotiations with our former EU partners. Leave would have been advised to be more circumspect, but in overstating their case they have only highlighted a vulnerability for them.
3. Leave leaders and supporters are very shrill at the moment. Undecideds hate this.
4. Campaigns that are promoted by governments are in a much stronger position. The same applied to the Yes campaign in the Scottish independence referendum. Governments have machinery, can do things officially and have a considerable control over the news agenda.
5. Cameron has declared war on at least half of his own party. This will be brutal.0 -
Game set and match to Remain, it was always thus0
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I quite agree. If I really believed that leaving the EU would boot TTIP (or similar) into the long grass it would be the cherry on the top of the cake.GIN1138 said:
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.0 -
Surely it should be "back garden" not "back yard" or is Obama writing posts for you?Roger said:
I thought the consensus was that Cameron wrote ittaffys said:
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.SouthamObserver said:
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.taffys said:I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?0 -
The US has been negotiating two primary trade deals the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) which covers trade with Pacific nations and TTIP which covers trade with the US and EU.blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The TPP negotiations have actually concluded earlier this year and it is now already in the ratification stage.
So the "queue" would consist of TPP (negotiations complete, already getting ratified), TTIP (negotiations already quite advanced) and post-Brexit UK (starting from scratch).0 -
No, but what I could read until the paywall looks interesting.Plato_Says said:Have you seen this?
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/farage-prepares-to-rebrand-ukip-as-an-online-movement-n2mdxgtptLuckyguy1983 said:
Which is a pity.Philip_Thompson said:
The same role as he is playing in the official Leave campaign, absolutely none.blackburn63 said:
Yes I hate to say it but far more grown up than those who crow bar Farage into every conversation.SouthamObserver said:
Dear God, save me from Boris and Nigel Farage. The Queen is a grown-up.blackburn63 said:Obama went to see the Queen yesterday, a penny for her thoughts.
Please explain, in clear detail (because Leavers are thick, remember) what part Farage will play in the governing of this country post June 24, irrespective of the outcome.
I firmly believe that Nigel has great charisma, but a leader is a group of people, not an individual. Shitty support structure; crap looking leader. That's why I think Corbyn has improved of late.0 -
Boris thinks the EU-USA deal is very much needed:GIN1138 said:
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11173369/This-trade-deal-with-America-would-have-Churchill-beaming.html0 -
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.Luckyguy1983 said:Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.0 -
You are suggesting that the Government should only prepare contingency plans for things it likes?alex. said:
Quite. We are continually told by "Leave" supporters on here that it is not their job to lay out what happens post exit, that is for the Government to do. Well if the Government did back Leave then that would be absolutely true and you would probably find a lot of Leavers rather unhappy about what they were proposing.Roger said:
I don't think that's correct. Facing the consequences of an out vote would be a nightmare and explaining what it means during the campaign would be even worse. If you think Boris and co are floundering just think what it would be like for Cameron. Woolly hand gestures wouldn't do. He'd have to have the future outside spelled out so everyone could understandPhilip_Thompson said:
If that was the case why did he back Remain? He'd have had a much easier ride if he'd gone for Leave.malcolmg said:
"beliefs", you are having a laugh. He would sell his granny for a pound, the creature has no beliefs just self interest.felix said:
Why on earth should he act against his beliefs?Casino_Royale said:
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.kle4 said:
Well, since that would happen if leave wins as well, I can see why he's focusing on the short term win - his days are PM are numbered either way.GideonWise said:Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.blackburn63 said:Alistair said:
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.CarlottaVance said:As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
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@whatukthinks: ICYMI: Latest @Survation @Daily_Record #scotland #euref poll: Remain 55 (+2), Leave 29 (n//c). Fwork 15-20.4.16. https://t.co/UyI9nQbfIB0
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Actions have consequences, that is also not a threat except again in very infantile minds.nigel4england said:
"There will be consequences" etcPhilip_Thompson said:
What "threat"? Back of the queue is a matter of fact, not threat. It would quickly change as a bilateral deal between us would be easy to write but we'll be starting largely from scratch while TTIP is already quite advanced.nigel4england said:
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?JackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
Seems infantile for every factual claim to be dismissed as a "threat".
Now there is a good day of sport and I have some positions to take, keep convincing yourself how wonderful Cameron is.0 -
And the first two are of a size where both sides are of a size that the advantages to both are obvious. Presumably that is why the US prefer trading with blocs, or countries of comparable size.Philip_Thompson said:
The US has been negotiating two primary trade deals the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) which covers trade with Pacific nations and TTIP which covers trade with the US and EU.blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The TPP negotiations have actually concluded earlier this year and it is now already in the ratification stage.
So the "queue" would consist of TPP (negotiations complete, already getting ratified), TTIP (negotiations already quite advanced) and post-Brexit UK (starting from scratch).
Any US/UK negotiations for new trade deals would be very lopsided. The UK would have far more to gain (relatively) than the US and so the terms would inevitably be skewed in the US favour. And would be far less of a priority for the US for the same reason.
0 -
Who do the Americans have in their office do you think? Two negotiators, one gap year intern, and a woman that does coming in twice a week to put a duster round? It must be hard not to be able to do more than one thing at a time.Philip_Thompson said:
The US has been negotiating two primary trade deals the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) which covers trade with Pacific nations and TTIP which covers trade with the US and EU.blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The TPP negotiations have actually concluded earlier this year and it is now already in the ratification stage.
So the "queue" would consist of TPP (negotiations complete, already getting ratified), TTIP (negotiations already quite advanced) and post-Brexit UK (starting from scratch).0 -
My own view is that the last 48 hours have been a disaster for Leave, possibly fatal. We'll see when some polling comes out.Roger said:
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.Luckyguy1983 said:Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.0 -
Half the country are infantile then, I bow to your superior intelligence.Philip_Thompson said:
Actions have consequences, that is also not a threat except again in very infantile minds.nigel4england said:
"There will be consequences" etcPhilip_Thompson said:
What "threat"? Back of the queue is a matter of fact, not threat. It would quickly change as a bilateral deal between us would be easy to write but we'll be starting largely from scratch while TTIP is already quite advanced.nigel4england said:
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?JackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
Seems infantile for every factual claim to be dismissed as a "threat".
Now there is a good day of sport and I have some positions to take, keep convincing yourself how wonderful Cameron is.
And arrogance.0 -
Much of it self-inflictedrottenborough said:My own view is that the last 48 hours have been a disaster for Leave
All of the blowhards whinging about Cameron's will to win have been noticeably quiet of Boris attempting to chew his own leg off0 -
Could somebody please clarify the situation on TTIP ratification for me?
Dates, processes etc.0 -
Absolutely, the anti-TTIP rantings of some Leavers makes me almost tempted to switch back to Remain. TTIP is a great deal.foxinsoxuk said:
Boris thinks the EU-USA deal is very much needed:GIN1138 said:
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11173369/This-trade-deal-with-America-would-have-Churchill-beaming.html0 -
In general terms, I would say the priority of trading importance to the US is: EU, China, Mexico, Canada, South America in general, then maybe India because there's a lot of work to be done there and perhaps Britain after that. The first four are the important ones. Although it's a big country the US still has limited resource in terms of qualified trade officials and Administration mindshare. It would take a while before they got onto the UK.blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.0 -
I think Nigel and Boris' comments were silly; not because I think they were being particularly racist, but because it's too much explanation to possibly get into anyone's mind from a blank slate. 'Yes it is good for America, but not good for us - as was the Iraq war' would have been a better approach imo.Roger said:
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.Luckyguy1983 said:Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
Personally I don't believe Obama's background influenced his doing this, though I'm open to the fact it may have put more of a spring in his step whilst doing it. It's Nigel and Boris doing a bit of a Poirot act when the real reasons are simpler ones of ongoing American strategic policy. Brexit would be a total mess for the US.0 -
No it's way less than half of the party. Not every leaver is died in the wool this is the most important thing to them. I am member who is tempted to vote leave presently but I don't view a remainer campaigning for remain as a declaration of war, I see it as inevitable.GIN1138 said:
It's way more than half his party. Taking into account the membership, the Shires, the blue rinse brigade, etc. He's declared war on about 80% of his party.FF43 said:
5. Cameron has declared war on at least half of his own party. This will be brutal.0 -
Orly. Ports Directive.Philip_Thompson said:
Incorrect again. A vote for Remain is a vote for the status quo. There will be no immediate changes if we vote Remain, hence it is the status quo.ThreeQuidder said:
But since the status quo isn't an option...!Philip_Thompson said:
No. It means you think the status quo is better than both deeper integration and leaving altogether.ThreeQuidder said:
But only if you're an expert in doublethink.Philip_Thompson said:
You can be simultaneously sceptical about the EU and deeper integration while being for Remaining in it.Plato_Says said:I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
Are you undecided again by any chance ?
0 -
Of course the Government should prepare contingency plans. However if they were backing "Leave" then that contingency plan would have had to be fully worked out, costed and watertight.Luckyguy1983 said:
You are suggesting that the Government should only prepare contingency plans for things it likes?alex. said:
Quite. We are continually told by "Leave" supporters on here that it is not their job to lay out what happens post exit, that is for the Government to do. Well if the Government did back Leave then that would be absolutely true and you would probably find a lot of Leavers rather unhappy about what they were proposing.
As it is any contingency plans are currently probably far more broadbrush and plenty of "to be worked on" in the intervening period. I'm fairly sure that whatever the Government current contingency plans/options are in the event of a vote to leave, they aren't at a level to withstand the heat of a referendum campaign. This is all in the context of people saying that Cameron backing leave would have been the easy option.
0 -
Fair summary.FF43 said:My takes on Obama's intervention:
1. Our relationship with America is irrelevant to whether we Brexit. What Obama said doesn't affect any concrete outcome.
2. It torpedoes Leave's implied claims that treaty renegotiations will be a breeze. They won't be. This applies most of all to our negotiations with our former EU partners. Leave would have been advised to be more circumspect, but in overstating their case they have only highlighted a vulnerability for them.
3. Leave leaders and supporters are very shrill at the moment. Undecideds hate this.
4. Campaigns that are promoted by governments are in a much stronger position. The same applied to the Yes campaign in the Scottish independence referendum. Governments have machinery, can do things officially and have a considerable control over the news agenda.
5. Cameron has declared war on at least half of his own party. This will be brutal.
It's not as though Obama hasn't intervened in a UK referendum before (all of 22 months ago), when there was a masterclass in shutting it down as an issue from Salmond - LEAVE have done the reverse and made a tricky situation much worse with their indignant posturing.0 -
Yep, a series of unforced errors that have just made sure the whole Obama thing stays in the news longer than it might.Scott_P said:
Much of it self-inflictedrottenborough said:My own view is that the last 48 hours have been a disaster for Leave
All of the blowhards whinging about Cameron's will to win have been noticeably quiet of Boris attempting to chew his own leg off0 -
No, we'll see when the result comes out. The POTUS, especially Obama, condemning Leave is not going to enhance its social acceptability on iota, but it may increase shy Leavers.rottenborough said:
My own view is that the last 48 hours have been a disaster for Leave, possibly fatal. We'll see when some polling comes out.Roger said:
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.Luckyguy1983 said:Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.0 -
No I think it the Government should only publish contingency plans for things it likes and wants to implement. We may have contingency plans for a war between us and France, no need for it to be published.Luckyguy1983 said:You are suggesting that the Government should only prepare contingency plans for things it likes?
I think Cameron has a contingency for a leave vote, but he's under no obligation to publish it.0 -
Leaver's comments on Obama are so hysterically hyperbolic and riddled with mutually inconsistent statements it has been comical. Bit like the Leave campaign in general I guess.Roger said:
I thought the consensus was that Cameron wrote ittaffys said:
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.SouthamObserver said:
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.taffys said:I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?0 -
I've been undecided the entire time and have said I'll only likely make my mind up when holding the pencil in my hand in the ballot box, which is quite liberating for someone who is normally dead set on one course of action. I see pros and cons for both options and will not be campaigning for either side.Indigo said:
Orly. Ports Directive.Philip_Thompson said:
Incorrect again. A vote for Remain is a vote for the status quo. There will be no immediate changes if we vote Remain, hence it is the status quo.ThreeQuidder said:
But since the status quo isn't an option...!Philip_Thompson said:
No. It means you think the status quo is better than both deeper integration and leaving altogether.ThreeQuidder said:
But only if you're an expert in doublethink.Philip_Thompson said:
You can be simultaneously sceptical about the EU and deeper integration while being for Remaining in it.Plato_Says said:I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
Are you undecided again by any chance ?
At present I'm leaning leave.0 -
I asked Southam Observer what Nigel said about Obama and he hasn't replied. Perhaps you can help me out. I've googled it and all I can find is Nigel criticising what he said, not what he is.Roger said:
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.Luckyguy1983 said:Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.
0 -
I distrust the motives of those who are pushing TTIP. I cannot be adamant that it 'is' a bad deal, because I haven't read it. Neither have you. So how you can say it's a great deal is beyond me. Mystic Meg would be jealous.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely, the anti-TTIP rantings of some Leavers makes me almost tempted to switch back to Remain. TTIP is a great deal.foxinsoxuk said:
Boris thinks the EU-USA deal is very much needed:GIN1138 said:
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11173369/This-trade-deal-with-America-would-have-Churchill-beaming.html0 -
I don't think their lack of an agency is helping their coherence.rottenborough said:
My own view is that the last 48 hours have been a disaster for Leave, possibly fatal. We'll see when some polling comes out.Roger said:
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.Luckyguy1983 said:Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
To use that nice advertising quote "Trying to sell without an ad agency is like winking at a girl in the dark. You know what you're doing but nobody else does"0 -
Leave is a shambles and remain is a mutual back-slapping circlj*rk club, not terribly edifying on either side.rottenborough said:
Yep, a series of unforced errors that have just made sure the whole Obama thing stays in the news longer than it might.Scott_P said:
Much of it self-inflictedrottenborough said:My own view is that the last 48 hours have been a disaster for Leave
All of the blowhards whinging about Cameron's will to win have been noticeably quiet of Boris attempting to chew his own leg off0 -
I've said all thread that the Americans will effectively start negotiations from June 24 onwards if we vote Leave, it will simply be starting from scratch though rather than quite advanced like TTIP is. The fact that the TPP negotiators have finished their negotiations is the icing on the cake.Luckyguy1983 said:
Who do the Americans have in their office do you think? Two negotiators, one gap year intern, and a woman that does coming in twice a week to put a duster round? It must be hard not to be able to do more than one thing at a time.Philip_Thompson said:
The US has been negotiating two primary trade deals the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) which covers trade with Pacific nations and TTIP which covers trade with the US and EU.blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The TPP negotiations have actually concluded earlier this year and it is now already in the ratification stage.
So the "queue" would consist of TPP (negotiations complete, already getting ratified), TTIP (negotiations already quite advanced) and post-Brexit UK (starting from scratch).0 -
So you think government contingency plans for things it doesn't like should be uncosted, not fully worked out, and not watertight.alex. said:
Of course the Government should prepare contingency plans. However if they were backing "Leave" then that contingency plan would have had to be fully worked out, costed and watertight.Luckyguy1983 said:
You are suggesting that the Government should only prepare contingency plans for things it likes?alex. said:
Quite. We are continually told by "Leave" supporters on here that it is not their job to lay out what happens post exit, that is for the Government to do. Well if the Government did back Leave then that would be absolutely true and you would probably find a lot of Leavers rather unhappy about what they were proposing.
As it is any contingency plans are currently probably far more broadbrush and plenty of "to be worked on" in the intervening period. I'm fairly sure that whatever the Government current contingency plans/options are in the event of a vote to leave, they aren't at a level to withstand the heat of a referendum campaign. This is all in the context of people saying that Cameron backing leave would have been the easy option.
0 -
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/president-obama-has-a-grudge-against-britain-because-his-family-is-from-kenya-says-nigel-farage_uk_571a2285e4b018a884dcc8c7blackburn63 said:
I asked Southam Observer what Nigel said about Obama and he hasn't replied. Perhaps you can help me out. I've googled it and all I can find is Nigel criticising what he said, not what he is.Roger said:
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.Luckyguy1983 said:Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.
0 -
Because it will lower trade barriers between the UK and USA and I believe in lower trade barriers.Luckyguy1983 said:
I distrust the motives of those who are pushing TTIP. I cannot be adamant that it 'is' a bad deal, because I haven't read it. Neither have you. So how you can say it's a great deal is beyond me. Mystic Meg would be jealous.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely, the anti-TTIP rantings of some Leavers makes me almost tempted to switch back to Remain. TTIP is a great deal.foxinsoxuk said:
Boris thinks the EU-USA deal is very much needed:GIN1138 said:
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11173369/This-trade-deal-with-America-would-have-Churchill-beaming.html
The fact that most complaints against it are for things I'd agree with (like increased competition) again confirms my views.0 -
Indeed.OllyT said:
Leaver's comments on Obama are so hysterically hyperbolic and riddled with mutually inconsistent statements it has been comical. Bit like the Leave campaign in general I guess.Roger said:
I thought the consensus was that Cameron wrote ittaffys said:
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.SouthamObserver said:
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.taffys said:I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?
It's been hilarious reading some of the comments last night and this morning!0 -
CarlottaVance said:
He obviously does not understand queuing......do you think he's British.....might he be - you know (an immigrant)?Philip_Thompson said:
How is it insulting? New entrants to the queue (as we would be) always join at the back. That's not insulting, that's absolutely standard.taffys said:
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.SouthamObserver said:
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.taffys said:I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?
TTIP will shake up healthcare in this country. It's a winner!Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely, the anti-TTIP rantings of some Leavers makes me almost tempted to switch back to Remain. TTIP is a great deal.foxinsoxuk said:
Boris thinks the EU-USA deal is very much needed:GIN1138 said:
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11173369/This-trade-deal-with-America-would-have-Churchill-beaming.html0 -
I heard Johnson's I didn't hear Farage's. I only know what I read in SO's post.blackburn63 said:
I asked Southam Observer what Nigel said about Obama and he hasn't replied. Perhaps you can help me out. I've googled it and all I can find is Nigel criticising what he said, not what he is.Roger said:
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.Luckyguy1983 said:Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.0 -
Not quite from scratch. TTIP will form a useful template to start from.Philip_Thompson said:
I've said all thread that the Americans will effectively start negotiations from June 24 onwards if we vote Leave, it will simply be starting from scratch though rather than quite advanced like TTIP is. The fact that the TPP negotiators have finished their negotiations is the icing on the cake.Luckyguy1983 said:
Who do the Americans have in their office do you think? Two negotiators, one gap year intern, and a woman that does coming in twice a week to put a duster round? It must be hard not to be able to do more than one thing at a time.Philip_Thompson said:
The US has been negotiating two primary trade deals the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) which covers trade with Pacific nations and TTIP which covers trade with the US and EU.blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The TPP negotiations have actually concluded earlier this year and it is now already in the ratification stage.
So the "queue" would consist of TPP (negotiations complete, already getting ratified), TTIP (negotiations already quite advanced) and post-Brexit UK (starting from scratch).0 -
TTIP is a left/right thing rather than leave/remain.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely, the anti-TTIP rantings of some Leavers makes me almost tempted to switch back to Remain. TTIP is a great deal.foxinsoxuk said:
Boris thinks the EU-USA deal is very much needed:GIN1138 said:
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11173369/This-trade-deal-with-America-would-have-Churchill-beaming.html
It's curious to see just how many on the left seem content to accept lower wages, higher prices and privatisation of public services as a price worth paying to get one over on UKIP/The Daily Mail etc.
0 -
That's the concept of contingency yes.Luckyguy1983 said:
So you think government contingency plans for things it doesn't like should be uncosted, not fully worked out, and not watertight.alex. said:
Of course the Government should prepare contingency plans. However if they were backing "Leave" then that contingency plan would have had to be fully worked out, costed and watertight.Luckyguy1983 said:
You are suggesting that the Government should only prepare contingency plans for things it likes?alex. said:
Quite. We are continually told by "Leave" supporters on here that it is not their job to lay out what happens post exit, that is for the Government to do. Well if the Government did back Leave then that would be absolutely true and you would probably find a lot of Leavers rather unhappy about what they were proposing.
As it is any contingency plans are currently probably far more broadbrush and plenty of "to be worked on" in the intervening period. I'm fairly sure that whatever the Government current contingency plans/options are in the event of a vote to leave, they aren't at a level to withstand the heat of a referendum campaign. This is all in the context of people saying that Cameron backing leave would have been the easy option.
If the government spent billions fully costing, working out and making water tight every possible contingency then that would be a waste of money. There should be just enough planning to ensure that you're not flatfooted and are able to adapt.0 -
The politicians at the head of the Leave campaign are the sort of politicians who don't believe in spending money on advertising.Roger said:
I don't think their lack of an agency is helping their coherence.rottenborough said:
My own view is that the last 48 hours have been a disaster for Leave, possibly fatal. We'll see when some polling comes out.Roger said:
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.Luckyguy1983 said:Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
To use that nice advertising quote "Trying to sell without an ad agency is like winking at a girl in the dark. You know what you're doing but nobody else does"
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I don't believe that TTIP would result in lower wages or higher prices, quite the opposite. Then again I am right wing.chestnut said:
TTIP is a left/right thing rather than leave/remain.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely, the anti-TTIP rantings of some Leavers makes me almost tempted to switch back to Remain. TTIP is a great deal.foxinsoxuk said:
Boris thinks the EU-USA deal is very much needed:GIN1138 said:
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11173369/This-trade-deal-with-America-would-have-Churchill-beaming.html
It's curious to see just how many on the left seem content to accept lower wages, higher prices and privatisation of public services as a price worth paying to get one over on UKIP/The Daily Mail etc.0 -
Thanks, as somebody who is by and large a Farage supporter that is ridiculous.alex. said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/president-obama-has-a-grudge-against-britain-because-his-family-is-from-kenya-says-nigel-farage_uk_571a2285e4b018a884dcc8c7blackburn63 said:
I asked Southam Observer what Nigel said about Obama and he hasn't replied. Perhaps you can help me out. I've googled it and all I can find is Nigel criticising what he said, not what he is.Roger said:
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.Luckyguy1983 said:Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.0 -
Obama described as "part Kenyan" by the great-grandson of Ali Kemal.0
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Ah, yes. Funny how implementation of that has been delayed until later in the year. Good news for foreign, state owned ports, not so great for the privately financed ones here.Indigo said:
Orly. Ports Directive.Philip_Thompson said:
Incorrect again. A vote for Remain is a vote for the status quo. There will be no immediate changes if we vote Remain, hence it is the status quo.ThreeQuidder said:
But since the status quo isn't an option...!Philip_Thompson said:
No. It means you think the status quo is better than both deeper integration and leaving altogether.ThreeQuidder said:
But only if you're an expert in doublethink.Philip_Thompson said:
You can be simultaneously sceptical about the EU and deeper integration while being for Remaining in it.Plato_Says said:I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
I guess we can add cargo handling, to steelmaking, cement manufacture, and fishing, as industries wiped out by the EU.0 -
Farage and Boris have made fools of themselves. Is that a surprise to anyone?0
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Sorry but to say that a specific trade deal is a 'great deal' because you believe in a broad concept of 'lower trade barriers' is absurdly simplistic, and there's no other way of describing it.Philip_Thompson said:
Because it will lower trade barriers between the UK and USA and I believe in lower trade barriers.Luckyguy1983 said:
I distrust the motives of those who are pushing TTIP. I cannot be adamant that it 'is' a bad deal, because I haven't read it. Neither have you. So how you can say it's a great deal is beyond me. Mystic Meg would be jealous.Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely, the anti-TTIP rantings of some Leavers makes me almost tempted to switch back to Remain. TTIP is a great deal.foxinsoxuk said:
Boris thinks the EU-USA deal is very much needed:GIN1138 said:
As far as I know you do not need a "tread deal" to trade with the US (or anybody else for that matter)blackburn63 said:I wonder if we can have a non partisan discussion.
This queue that Obama speaks of - how long is it? Its a serious question, I'd like to establish how many countries are trying to trade with the US and what obstacles they are up against, if any.
The whole issue is nonsense really... I think what's offended a lot of people is more the way he said it rather than what he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11173369/This-trade-deal-with-America-would-have-Churchill-beaming.html
The fact that most complaints against it are for things I'd agree with (like increased competition) again confirms my views.0 -
Thanks, so you made it up. Its important to know who you're dealing with, I'm sure you'll agree.Roger said:
I heard Johnson's I didn't hear Farage's. I only know what I read in SO's post.blackburn63 said:
I asked Southam Observer what Nigel said about Obama and he hasn't replied. Perhaps you can help me out. I've googled it and all I can find is Nigel criticising what he said, not what he is.Roger said:
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.Luckyguy1983 said:Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.
As it turns out Nigel said something silly but you didn't know that.0 -
@David_Cameron: This St George’s Day, let’s celebrate "this blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England." #Shakespeare400
Queue a bunch of unhappy leavers telling Cameron to Fuck off...0 -
Respect to you for that.blackburn63 said:
Thanks, as somebody who is by and large a Farage supporter that is ridiculous.alex. said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/president-obama-has-a-grudge-against-britain-because-his-family-is-from-kenya-says-nigel-farage_uk_571a2285e4b018a884dcc8c7blackburn63 said:
I asked Southam Observer what Nigel said about Obama and he hasn't replied. Perhaps you can help me out. I've googled it and all I can find is Nigel criticising what he said, not what he is.Roger said:
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.Luckyguy1983 said:Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.
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They're also people without much moneyalex. said:
The politicians at the head of the Leave campaign are the sort of politicians who don't believe in spending money on advertising.Roger said:
I don't think their lack of an agency is helping their coherence.rottenborough said:
My own view is that the last 48 hours have been a disaster for Leave, possibly fatal. We'll see when some polling comes out.Roger said:
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.Luckyguy1983 said:Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
To use that nice advertising quote "Trying to sell without an ad agency is like winking at a girl in the dark. You know what you're doing but nobody else does"0 -
Sorry I did read it. It was Johnathan Friedland in todays Guardian.blackburn63 said:
Thanks, as somebody who is by and large a Farage supporter that is ridiculous.alex. said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/president-obama-has-a-grudge-against-britain-because-his-family-is-from-kenya-says-nigel-farage_uk_571a2285e4b018a884dcc8c7blackburn63 said:
I asked Southam Observer what Nigel said about Obama and he hasn't replied. Perhaps you can help me out. I've googled it and all I can find is Nigel criticising what he said, not what he is.Roger said:
I think you have that just about right. The only part of the 'froth' that might become significant effects the personel. As SO has said Johnson and Farage referring to Obama as they did might persuade some on the Leave side that it's time to give them a back seat.Luckyguy1983 said:Though we're all having a good time establishing whether Obama would ever say 'queue' in normal life etc., this is very arcane politico froth. Like Osbornes '£4300 per household' it's the headline that impacts; recriminations, claim and counter-claim are neither here nor there.
There is no doubt in my mind that Osborne's claim was as wounding to Leave as anything that could have been said. It remains to be seen whether Obama's intervention, whilst also headline grabbing, is wounding to Leave or a self-inflicted wound to Remain. Public perception of this is what matters.
Thanks, it would be helpful, I need to know if Nigel was insulting or you're making things up.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/barack-obama-crush-brexit-fantasy-eu-referendum?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
"Every day he spends tag-teaming with Nigel Farage – who repeated the mayor’s “half-Kenyan” line – risks trashing the Boris brand, defining Johnson as less a future prime minister than a figure of the fringes, less a lovable maverick than a rather unpleasant oddball".0
