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Why wouldn't they assume they were being listened to by the same officials?tlg86 said:In Peter Snowdon and Anthony Seldon's book "Cameron at 10" they say that world leaders commiserated with outgoing PM Gordon Brown and telling him how much they had wanted him to win. Two hours later the same leaders were congratulating Cameron and letting him know they were delighted that he had won.
Now those gestures were done in private (apart from the fact that the same Downing Street officials were listening in on both conversations - whether the foreign leaders realised this is questionable). A vote to leave the EU (unlikely, I know), would see some frantic backtracking from the White House.
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@faisalislam: 4. It's not a "threat". A trade deal takes two to tango. Nigel & Boris can't negotiate with themselves. Stated US policy to focus on blocs0
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There probably are 40% of Tory MPs who think the EU debate is less important than backing their leader. I doubt there are more than 10% of Tory MPs who are actively pro-EU.kle4 said:You believe 40% of Tory MPs are misrepresenting their views then? In that they are leavers were it not that Cameron told tgem to remain? I have no way of knowing, but given half the MPs had the courage of their convictions, that seems optimistic
Regardless, that scenario of unity is Far from certain even so. The party point seems pretty solid, but if leaver MPs are willing to defy a PM, so woukd remainers. Maybe it would not have been as many, maybe the trouble woukd not be as much, but so overwhelming so as Cameron could have had this mythical United party?0 -
Mr. P, it does take two to tango. And we know Obama won't be dancing because he'll be out of office then.0
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Totally agree - *back of the
linequeue* had Number 10 prints all over it.
I couldn't bring myself to comment yesterday, I was beyond insulted and livid - with Cameron.
Obama's never liked us, but I think he stepped way over the line at the behest of our own Prime Minister. Being threatened by the French in France wasn't unexpected - to have POTUS invited here to publicly threaten us, whilst Cameron acted like a grinning superfan was just a giant No.
This sort of behaviour that can't be stepped back from - once again Cameron has put the EU before his Party. He's destroying it from within. A Labour friend yesterday took great delight in telling me he was voting Leave, as it'd destroy the Tories for a generation. He's cockahoop.
Those Tory Remainers seeking to needle their fellow Party members or supporters need to be really careful what they wish for.stjohn said:I was quite uneasy watching that press conference with Obama and Cameron. It felt like an edited version of the POTUS/PM scene from "Love Actually". The "back of the queue" phrase certainly looks scripted and in my view was ill-judged. It's quite insulting to the UK. Also Cameron's evident delight at it all was rather off putting. This could very well backfire.
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@faisalislam: 2. deep scepticism of US officials on post-Brexit bilateral deal was being openly talked about at highest levels at the g20 in DC last weekMorris_Dancer said:Mr. P, it does take two to tango. And we know Obama won't be dancing because he'll be out of office then.
Obama was expressing US policy, which is not going to change when he leaves0 -
Scott_P said:
@faisalislam: 4. It's not a "threat". A trade deal takes two to tango. Nigel & Boris can't negotiate with themselves. Stated US policy to focus on blocs
The bloc of England, Wales, Scotland, and NI is a fairly important one to the US, no matter what Obama says in a choreographed speech with Cameron.
The idea that trade will cease between the US and the UK because of Brexit is just insulting.
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Nobody said thatMarkHopkins said:The idea that trade will cease between the US and the UK because of Brexit is just insulting.
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Morning all,Plato_Says said:Totally agree - *back of the
linequeue* had Number 10 prints all over it.
I couldn't bring myself to comment yesterday, I was beyond insulted and livid - with Cameron.
Obama's never liked us, but I think he stepped way over the line at the behest of our own Prime Minister. Being threatened by the French in France wasn't unexpected - to have POTUS invited here to publicly threaten us, whilst Cameron acted like a grinning superfan was just a giant No.
This sort of behaviour that can't be stepped back from - once again Cameron has put the EU before his Party. He's destroying it from within. A Labour friend yesterday took great delight in telling me he was voting Leave, as it'd destroy the Tories for a generation. He's cockahoop.
Those Tory Remainers seeking to needle their fellow Party members or supporters need to be really careful what they wish for.stjohn said:I was quite uneasy watching that press conference with Obama and Cameron. It felt like an edited version of the POTUS/PM scene from "Love Actually". The "back of the queue" phrase certainly looks scripted and in my view was ill-judged. It's quite insulting to the UK. Also Cameron's evident delight at it all was rather off putting. This could very well backfire.
"A Labour friend yesterday took great delight in telling me he was voting Leave, as it'd destroy the Tories for a generation. He's cockahoop."
This is what should be sending panic signals through Labour party bosses.0 -
Smithson Junior says he knows of a Tory MP who is pretending to be for Leave for fear of retribution from their constituency party. I reckon, however, that there are probably more who have called for Remain on the basis that they (perhaps wrongly) assumed that George Osborne would be the next Prime Minister.ThreeQuidder said:
There probably are 40% of Tory MPs who think the EU debate is less important than backing their leader. I doubt there are more than 10% of Tory MPs who are actively pro-EU.kle4 said:You believe 40% of Tory MPs are misrepresenting their views then? In that they are leavers were it not that Cameron told tgem to remain? I have no way of knowing, but given half the MPs had the courage of their convictions, that seems optimistic
Regardless, that scenario of unity is Far from certain even so. The party point seems pretty solid, but if leaver MPs are willing to defy a PM, so woukd remainers. Maybe it would not have been as many, maybe the trouble woukd not be as much, but so overwhelming so as Cameron could have had this mythical United party?0 -
No it would change before then, on June 24 if we Vote Leave.Scott_P said:
@faisalislam: 2. deep scepticism of US officials on post-Brexit bilateral deal was being openly talked about at highest levels at the g20 in DC last weekMorris_Dancer said:Mr. P, it does take two to tango. And we know Obama won't be dancing because he'll be out of office then.
Obama was expressing US policy, which is not going to change when he leaves
America is perfectly happy to use its influence to make the world how it wants it, while simultaneously dealing with the world as it is. This is Game Theory in action, at present it makes sense to say you won't co-operate because that way they get their optimal result (we stay in) but if they know we have voted leave then it is optimal for them to co-operate.0 -
Mr. P, so Obama's policy on a bilateral trade deal with the UK is going to be written into the Constitution? Impressive.0
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I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.kle4 said:Casino_Royale said:kle4 said:
You believe 40% of Tory MPs are misrepresenting their views then? In that they are leavers were it not that Cameron told tgem to remain? I have no way of knowing, but given half the MPs had the courage of their convictions, that seems optimisticGideonWise said:
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.blackburn63 said:
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.Alistair said:CarlottaVance said:As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
I presume he thinks staying in the eu is best for this country. I think he's wrong, given we failed to gain anything substantive in negotiations. But if he thinks that, then achieving it would naturally seem more important than a futile attempt to preserve unity. This isn't like accepting a delay or u turn on a single element of a welfare programme in the face of opposition for the sake of unity, if you think the Eu is good or bad you cannot compromise any longer.
That is why division was inevitable and why it is so hateful. Doesn't mean people cannot be angry at what he does to win, or believing he is just plain wrong, but the idea he could or should focus on party unity and respect, which is usually code for he should have gone for leave since as I said some if fewer than now would have cried foul regardless, is
Regardless, that scenario of unity is Far from certain even so. The party point seems pretty solid, but if leaver MPs are willing to defy a PM, so woukd remainers. Maybe it would not have been as many, maybe the trouble woukd not be as much, but so overwhelming so as Cameron could have had this mythical United party?0 -
"beliefs", you are having a laugh. He would sell his granny for a pound, the creature has no beliefs just self interest.felix said:
Why on earth should he act against his beliefs?Casino_Royale said:
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.kle4 said:
Well, since that would happen if leave wins as well, I can see why he's focusing on the short term win - his days are PM are numbered either way.GideonWise said:Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.blackburn63 said:Alistair said:
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.CarlottaVance said:As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
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Oh dear.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, so Obama's policy on a bilateral trade deal with the UK is going to be written into the Constitution? Impressive.
The stated US policy, which will not change, is that trade with Blocs is their preference over individual deals0 -
Its consistent with what Obama said - yes, there would be a Trade Deal, but (reasonably enough) the US will prioritise Trade Deals with bigger players/blocs first - what's unreasonable about that? Its the LEAVErs claim that the US would rush to do a trade deal with Britain thats been shown up as fatuous - and Farage's 'bombshell' that one of Obama's advisors was an intern in the EEC twenty four years ago (something Farage, curiously does not make clear) is also rather pathetic.....nigel4england said:
What about the rest of it?CarlottaVance said:
That Froman worked as an intern in the EEC (as it was then) in 1992?nigel4england said:
From Breitbart, the last sentence is a killer:CarlottaVance said:Why LEAVE is upset - the key segment from Obama's speech:
In democracies everybody should want more information, not less, and you shouldn’t be afraid to hear an argument being made - that’s not a threat, that should enhance the debate.
Particularly because my understanding is that some of the folks on the other side have been ascribing to the United States certain actions we will take if the UK does leave the EU - they say for example that ‘we will just cut our own trade deals with the United States’.
So they are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.
And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done.
The UK is going to be in the back of the queue.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/22/obama-cameron-press-conference-eu-uk-uks-power-politics-live
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/22/exclusive-u-s-office-trade-official/
Some 'killer fact'0 -
Recognising that here and Twitter are not representative of opinion generally, but perhaps can reflect certain segments of opinion, who does replace Cameron in the event a swift demise? The longer he holds on the more chance for a new figure to emerge or an older candidate written off to reassert themselves, but in the event of leave Cameron is gone in days if not hours, and clearly some want him gone very soon even if remain win so there's the possibility even then he's gone in weeks to months,
So who takes over then? I'd presumed Boris as the biggest name of the leave camp, but I get the sense though they wouldn't agree he's messed up as much as remainers think, Tory leavers are not desperately keen to see Boris as PM. Gove, really? The unknown brigade like Patel? Gods, let it be ids again just for the humour of the choice. But seriously, will it be Boris if it's a quick changeover?0 -
You can be simultaneously sceptical about the EU and deeper integration while being for Remaining in it.Plato_Says said:I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
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So why do you bring it up?MarkHopkins said:
The idea that trade will cease between the US and the UK because of Brexit is just insulting.Scott_P said:@faisalislam: 4. It's not a "threat". A trade deal takes two to tango. Nigel & Boris can't negotiate with themselves. Stated US policy to focus on blocs
Whats insulting is LEAVErs making claims about US policy, then crying foul when the US President explains US policy.....0 -
If that was the case why did he back Remain? He'd have had a much easier ride if he'd gone for Leave.malcolmg said:
"beliefs", you are having a laugh. He would sell his granny for a pound, the creature has no beliefs just self interest.felix said:
Why on earth should he act against his beliefs?Casino_Royale said:
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.kle4 said:
Well, since that would happen if leave wins as well, I can see why he's focusing on the short term win - his days are PM are numbered either way.GideonWise said:Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.blackburn63 said:Alistair said:
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.CarlottaVance said:As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
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This reminds me of the Mail, which said that if we didn't elect William Hague it would be the last independent election Britain would ever have and it would be unimportant in future who we elected, since the power would have gone to Brussels. I remember thinking at the time that it would be nice if the Mail no longer took a vituperative interest in our elections, but not really believing it. Similarly, I am sceptical that you won't be here in 2020 telling us that voting Tory is crucial.Moses_ said:I was always under the impression that foreign leaders did not get themselves involved in internal elections.
Now you might say this isn't an election but to all intents and purposes it is. We are about to elect the final government of the U.K if the vote results in remain. Should it do so then we will never be able to change this result irrespective of how many elections we subsequently hold here. We will be from that point on governed by the unelected and irremoveable elite in Brussels. It really won't mater a jot who you vote here the trip to the voting station will be utterly wasted because Brussels will always get in. It's the political aspect which is the concern not the trading aspect which has evolved into an elaborate cover story.
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That's right. This is about hypothetical trade deals to be made in the future. In fact, leaving the EU presents HMG with the opportunity to avoid the horrors* of TTIP.Scott_P said:
Nobody said thatMarkHopkins said:The idea that trade will cease between the US and the UK because of Brexit is just insulting.
* I'm not sure it is horrific but lots of my Lefty friends on Facebook seem to think it's bad.0 -
Scott_P said:
Oh dear.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, so Obama's policy on a bilateral trade deal with the UK is going to be written into the Constitution? Impressive.
The stated US policy, which will not change, is that trade with Blocs is their preference over individual deals
Of course that is their 'preference'. But it will also be their preference to do a deal with the UK (rather than not have a deal) when we leave.
We're significant enough to them that trade will continue unabated.
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Yes, clearly Dominic Raab knows more about US trade policy than Obama...CarlottaVance said:Whats insulting is LEAVErs making claims about US policy, then crying foul when the US President explains US policy.....
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No rebatenigel4england said:
You are saying they we would only be allowed back on much worse terms than we currently enjoy? What terms are those thenCarlottaVance said:
Yes - and if the EU develops in a way that is uncongenial, there is nothing to stop the UK having another referendum in 10-15 years if we have REMAINed (heck in Scotland 'once in a generation' is ±5 years, it would appear) - however, If we LEAVE we will not be back in the EU for decades, if it turns out to have been a mistake, and on terms much worse than we currently enjoy.....Morris_Dancer said:Miss Vance, I agree some Leavers are manic, but then, some Remainers are craven.
I'd urge you to vote based on the strength of the credible arguments both side put forward, ignore the flimflam, and consider how you think things would develop over the next 10-15 years if we were inside or outside the EU.
Euro
Schengen
For starters, and I'm sure the French will think of something.....0 -
No he isn't:Scott_P said:
@faisalislam: 2. deep scepticism of US officials on post-Brexit bilateral deal was being openly talked about at highest levels at the g20 in DC last weekMorris_Dancer said:Mr. P, it does take two to tango. And we know Obama won't be dancing because he'll be out of office then.
Obama was expressing US policy, which is not going to change when he leaves
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/22/exclusive-u-s-office-trade-official/
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Plato_Says said:
I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
kle4 said:Casino_Royale said:
Perhaps, but if they were such soft skeptics that leader loyalty kept them on board through the deal, I don't think it can be assured they would all have the stones to go for leave even if the leader was. Some, yes, if the leader was. But some must have believed what they said that the deal offered was good,kle4 said:
You believe 40% of Tory MPs are misrepresenting their views then? In that they are leavers were it not that Cameron told tgem to remain? I have no way of knowing, but given half the MPs had the courage of their convictions, that seems optimisticGideonWise said:
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.blackburn63 said:
Yes, but clearly uniting them. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.Alistair said:CarlottaVance said:As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
I presume he thinks staying in the eu is best for this country. I think he's wrong, given we failed to gain anything substantive in negotiations. But if he thinks that, then achieving it would naturally seem more important programme in the face of opposition for the sake of unity, if you think the Eu is good or bad you cannot compromise any longer.
That is why division was inevitable and why it is so hateful. Doesn't mean people cannot be angry at what he does to win, or believing he is just plain wrong, but the idea he could or should focus on party unity and respect, which is usually code for he should have gone for leave since as I said some if fewer than now would have cried foul regardless, is
Regardless, that scenario of unity is Far from certain even so. The party point seems pretty solid, but if leaver MPs are willing to defy a PM, so woukd remainers. Maybe it would not have been as many, maybe the trouble woukd not be as much, but so overwhelming so as Cameron could have had this mythical United party?0 -
Quentin on fine form this morning:
"The President, a sometime college lecturer, is not a fast or succinct talker. He addresses a room like a professor explaining plangent inevitabilities to some not entirely bright undergraduates."
and
"By the way, did you see the Queen's head-scarf yesterday? Was it not magnificently 'The League of Gentlemen'?"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3554789/Menace-threat-No-10-purred-QUENTIN-LETTS-watches-Barack-Obama-turns-Bully-Boy-cold-curt-warning-Brexit.html#ixzz46dRmPvHE
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Another Leaver claims to know more about US trade policy than the US president.nigel4england said:No he isn't:
Aye, right...0 -
Everything they said about the issue before the referendum is now history. When push came to shove they backed in, and that is all that will matter in the future.Plato_Says said:I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
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I dunno, it might change. Surely Trump is planning to rip all these agreements up and put in place massive tariffs to protect the heartlands?Scott_P said:
Oh dear.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, so Obama's policy on a bilateral trade deal with the UK is going to be written into the Constitution? Impressive.
The stated US policy, which will not change, is that trade with Blocs is their preference over individual deals0 -
They needn't worry, a Remain vote will destroy the Tories for a generation just as surely.rottenborough said:
Morning all,Plato_Says said:Totally agree - *back of the
linequeue* had Number 10 prints all over it.
I couldn't bring myself to comment yesterday, I was beyond insulted and livid - with Cameron.
Obama's never liked us, but I think he stepped way over the line at the behest of our own Prime Minister. Being threatened by the French in France wasn't unexpected - to have POTUS invited here to publicly threaten us, whilst Cameron acted like a grinning superfan was just a giant No.
This sort of behaviour that can't be stepped back from - once again Cameron has put the EU before his Party. He's destroying it from within. A Labour friend yesterday took great delight in telling me he was voting Leave, as it'd destroy the Tories for a generation. He's cockahoop.
Those Tory Remainers seeking to needle their fellow Party members or supporters need to be really careful what they wish for.stjohn said:I was quite uneasy watching that press conference with Obama and Cameron. It felt like an edited version of the POTUS/PM scene from "Love Actually". The "back of the queue" phrase certainly looks scripted and in my view was ill-judged. It's quite insulting to the UK. Also Cameron's evident delight at it all was rather off putting. This could very well backfire.
"A Labour friend yesterday took great delight in telling me he was voting Leave, as it'd destroy the Tories for a generation. He's cockahoop."
This is what should be sending panic signals through Labour party bosses.
Popcorn overdose incoming...
:-)0 -
@trewloy: Nice summary from @faisalislam. Anyone ever involved in any form of negotiation knows you can't assume the other party will do what you want
@faisalislam: Basically, tis like saying someone who you quite fancy, engaged to someone else, has threatened you, by rejecting your marriage proposal0 -
No, actually I can't be bothered. I was going to read the thread up to date, but 400 odd posting of MeeksInSocks and a few Cameron Loyalists comparing the lengths of their manhoods with a few centre-right Tories and a few kippers falls firmly into the "life is too short" category
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It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.0 -
Mr. P, the marriage proposal comparison is just wrong.
You can only marry one person at once.
A country can have more than one trade deal.0 -
CarlottaVance said:
No rebate: We currently contribute £7 billion per year netnigel4england said:
You are saying they we would only be allowed back on much worse terms than we currently enjoy? What terms are those thenCarlottaVance said:
Yes - and if the EU develops in a way that is uncongenial, there is nothing to stop the UK having another referendum in 10-15 years if we have REMAINed (heck in Scotland 'once in a generation' is ±5 years, it would appear) - however, If we LEAVE we will not be back in the EU for decades, if it turns out to have been a mistake, and on terms much worse than we currently enjoy.....Morris_Dancer said:Miss Vance, I agree some Leavers are manic, but then, some Remainers are craven.
I'd urge you to vote based on the strength of the credible arguments both side put forward, ignore the flimflam, and consider how you think things would develop over the next 10-15 years if we were inside or outside the EU.
Euro: They would accept us with Sterling, they need us more than we need them
Schengen Practically dead already
For starters, and I'm sure the French will think of something.....0 -
Has anyone noticed that in the last few weeks we haven't heard a thing about the PM's wonderful renegotiation?0
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Freedland is always worth reading. I was at a party last night and in the three minutes of conversation about the referendum the only unanimity was how shifty Boris looked yesterday.Scott_P said:@AdamBienkov: Jonathan Freedland on the re-toxification of Boris Johnson's brand https://t.co/6uQ1ML7t0W https://t.co/WInKVCLGqW
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Whodathunkit? Raise taxes, lower revenue:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14447431.Scottish_Government_s_house_sales_tax_fails_to_meet_target0 -
I think he nailed it by saying he was responding to what Leave are claiming the US will do. Once that was raised POTUS had every right to make a comment rather than allow people to go on believing Leave's fantasy post Brexit world.CarlottaVance said:Why LEAVE is upset - the key segment from Obama's speech:
In democracies everybody should want more information, not less, and you shouldn’t be afraid to hear an argument being made - that’s not a threat, that should enhance the debate.
Particularly because my understanding is that some of the folks on the other side have been ascribing to the United States certain actions we will take if the UK does leave the EU - they say for example that ‘we will just cut our own trade deals with the United States’.
So they are voicing an opinion about what the United States is going to do, I figured you might want to hear from the president of the United States what I think the United States is going to do.
And on that matter, for example, I think it’s fair to say that maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done.
The UK is going to be in the back of the queue.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/22/obama-cameron-press-conference-eu-uk-uks-power-politics-live0 -
Quite.tlg86 said:
Has anyone noticed that in the last few weeks we haven't heard a thing about the PM's wonderful renegotiation?
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Yeh, I agree. He looked pale and uneasy. I think he's realising what a terrible decision he has made.Roger said:
Freedland is always worth reading. I was at a party last night and in the three minutes of conversation about the referendum the only unanimity was how shifty Boris looked yesterday.Scott_P said:@AdamBienkov: Jonathan Freedland on the re-toxification of Boris Johnson's brand https://t.co/6uQ1ML7t0W https://t.co/WInKVCLGqW
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Mr. 86, quite. It's odd, given Cameron was wholly prepared to recommend we Leave if he didn't get a good deal. I'm surprised he isn't shouting it from the rooftops.0
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Nothing of the sort, I just read the article and posted it.Scott_P said:
Another Leaver claims to know more about US trade policy than the US president.nigel4england said:No he isn't:
Aye, right...0 -
Leave have not, on the whole, been inspiring. Too much whinging about unfairness and playing Tory battles. But im confident with so long to go the good arguments will cut through and the polls will tighten, then we can truly judge the hyperbolic battle as remain panic. There's still, sigh, 6 weeks to go. Heavens help us.JackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
Good day all, play nice.0 -
Welcome aboard, comradeGIN1138 said:
Personally I'm warming to Jeremy Corbyn a lot. I'm increasingly finding him simple, straightforward and a mostly honest politician... Sure, he may hate the UK and everything it stands for but at least he's honest about it unlike the repulsive pair that's currently in charge.MP_SE said:
I am really really looking forward to the post-referendum split that will occur.GIN1138 said:
Make sure you remember what Cameron and Osborne have done. At every single available opportunity vote against them.MP_SE said:So much for the special relationship... Quite sickening to see the likes of Osborne cheer on Obama snubbing the UK.
This pair think they are the UK. Time to get rid.
For the first time in about 18 years I'm going to vote Labour in the local elections in two weeks. Will feel weird but also, oddly, liberating.
. To be fair Corbyn isn't anti-UK and is genuinely fond of the kind of Britain that doesn't get reflected in ceremonies and institutions, but he's deeply sceptical about the western alliance, which he sees as a club of rich guys scratching each others' backs, supporting any old thug who happens to be convenient, and knifing each other when commercial interest dictate. He's not altogether wrong, and what I most like is that his idea of democratic debate is that you say what you think, listen politely to the other side, and let the chips fall where they may. It's a bit innocent but we need a dose of that to balance the overpowering cynicism that dominates our affairs. 0 -
stjohn said:
I was quite uneasy watching that press conference with Obama and Cameron. It felt like an edited version of the POTUS/PM scene from "Love Actually". The "back of the queue" phrase certainly looks scripted and in my view was ill-judged. It's quite insulting to the UK. Also Cameron's evident delight at it all was rather off putting. This could very well backfire.
On the other hand it could push more undecideds into the Remain camp. Let's wait for the next polls shall we0 -
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?JackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.0 -
It's almost as if some Leavers are looking for reasons to be outraged. All Obama said was that the UK will get no special favours from the US. If we want a deal that improves on the current situation we'll have to wait for others to be done first. It is so obviously the case that is true it's hard to believe all this fury is anything other than synthetic.
It makes no sense for the US to give us preferential treatment in advance of a trade agreement with the EU, for example. The final terms of an EU deal would affect what the US would or would not want from us and what they'd be prepared to offer us. They'd also want to see what we agree with the EU, as would other major trading nations. If the UK retains full single market rights, then we are much more interesting than if we don't. And so on.
Obama said what he did because prominent Leavers have been claiming the UK outside the EU would quickly agree a beneficial trade arrangement with the US. If they had not made such ridiculous claims there would have been no need to say anything. In short, Leave brought all this on itself.
And as for insulting, saying Obama hates Britain because he is "part Kenyan" is just contemptible. He's an uppity so and so, isn't he?
0 -
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.
........................
Where is the evidence for that? A majority of Tory MPs have never been in favour of Brexit. Just because you think that a lot of Tory MPs have only voted Remain because of Cameron doesn't make it so. One could probably argue with greater credibility that a lot of Tory MPs feel obliged to appear more Eurosceptic than they are to keep the frothers in the constituency parties happy.0 -
And this:Scott_P said:@PeterMannionMP: Nice idea to see UK fingerprints on 'back of the queue' (not line), but OBAMA USES QUEUE IN LOTS OF SPEECHES. #EUref https://t.co/r8rolmRclM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2581034/British-invasion-Americans-start-saying-Queue-thanks-Netflix-33-million-U-S-subscribers.html
0 -
9 weeks......what is it with LEAVE and numbers..... ;-)kle4 said:
There's still, sigh, 6 weeks to go. Heavens help us..JackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.0 -
You are insulting everyone's intelligence in stating Ibama said or even implied trade would cease between the UK and US. He didn't. He merely explained we would not get a deal that puts us in a better position than we are now.MarkHopkins said:Scott_P said:@faisalislam: 4. It's not a "threat". A trade deal takes two to tango. Nigel & Boris can't negotiate with themselves. Stated US policy to focus on blocs
The bloc of England, Wales, Scotland, and NI is a fairly important one to the US, no matter what Obama says in a choreographed speech with Cameron.
The idea that trade will cease between the US and the UK because of Brexit is just insulting.
0 -
LOL!NickPalmer said:
Welcome aboard, comradeGIN1138 said:
Personally I'm warming to Jeremy Corbyn a lot. I'm increasingly finding him simple, straightforward and a mostly honest politician... Sure, he may hate the UK and everything it stands for but at least he's honest about it unlike the repulsive pair that's currently in charge.MP_SE said:
I am really really looking forward to the post-referendum split that will occur.GIN1138 said:
Make sure you remember what Cameron and Osborne have done. At every single available opportunity vote against them.MP_SE said:So much for the special relationship... Quite sickening to see the likes of Osborne cheer on Obama snubbing the UK.
This pair think they are the UK. Time to get rid.
For the first time in about 18 years I'm going to vote Labour in the local elections in two weeks. Will feel weird but also, oddly, liberating..
In a million years I never thought I'd would warm to Corbyn when he became Lab leader and I still think many of his ideas are totally dotty but you can see that he is a very straight forward man with convictions and honesty.
I was impressed with Corbyn's tribute to HMQ the other day. Not putting on the smarm like Cameron but a genuinely warm tribute to her service while at the same time acknowledging he personally doesn't favour the institution.
Cameron and Osborne see politics as a game and you wonder if they really believe in anything except power for powers sake (I think the one conviction they do have is being passionate Europeans... But it just so happens they spent ten years lying about the only real convictions they have)
We'll see how it goes but I feel comfortable voting for Labour in this years local elections anyway.0 -
That's because all their big trading partners are currently in blocs, duh.Scott_P said:
Oh dear.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, so Obama's policy on a bilateral trade deal with the UK is going to be written into the Constitution? Impressive.
The stated US policy, which will not change, is that trade with Blocs is their preference over individual deals0 -
So how are we worse off if we leave then>SouthamObserver said:
You are insulting everyone's intelligence in stating Ibama said or even implied trade would cease between the UK and US. He didn't. He merely explained we would not get a deal that puts us in a better position than we are now.MarkHopkins said:Scott_P said:@faisalislam: 4. It's not a "threat". A trade deal takes two to tango. Nigel & Boris can't negotiate with themselves. Stated US policy to focus on blocs
The bloc of England, Wales, Scotland, and NI is a fairly important one to the US, no matter what Obama says in a choreographed speech with Cameron.
The idea that trade will cease between the US and the UK because of Brexit is just insulting.0 -
Yes, here is Boris singing the praises of the EU-USA trade deal in Oct 2014. One can only wonder which way the wind was blowing that day:rottenborough said:
Yeh, I agree. He looked pale and uneasy. I think he's realising what a terrible decision he has made.Roger said:
Freedland is always worth reading. I was at a party last night and in the three minutes of conversation about the referendum the only unanimity was how shifty Boris looked yesterday.Scott_P said:@AdamBienkov: Jonathan Freedland on the re-toxification of Boris Johnson's brand https://t.co/6uQ1ML7t0W https://t.co/WInKVCLGqW
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11173369/This-trade-deal-with-America-would-have-Churchill-beaming.html
In the article he cites non-tariff barriers as the main issue, and that the EU-USA deal is worth £10 billion annually to the UK economy.
Also that TTIP is no threat to the NHS...0 -
But only if you're an expert in doublethink.Philip_Thompson said:
You can be simultaneously sceptical about the EU and deeper integration while being for Remaining in it.Plato_Says said:I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
0 -
Indeed. The thought of hysterical Leavers negotiating anything is quite frightening.Scott_P said:@trewloy: Nice summary from @faisalislam. Anyone ever involved in any form of negotiation knows you can't assume the other party will do what you want
@faisalislam: Basically, tis like saying someone who you quite fancy, engaged to someone else, has threatened you, by rejecting your marriage proposal
Give us what we want, now.
No
Liar, it's not fair, you hate us because you're foreign. Repeat to fade.
0 -
Yep, me too.GIN1138 said:
LOL!NickPalmer said:
Welcome aboard, comradeGIN1138 said:
Personally I'm warming to Jeremy Corbyn a lot. I'm increasingly finding him simple, straightforward and a mostly honest politician... Sure, he may hate the UK and everything it stands for but at least he's honest about it unlike the repulsive pair that's currently in charge.MP_SE said:
I am really really looking forward to the post-referendum split that will occur.GIN1138 said:
Make sure you remember what Cameron and Osborne have done. At every single available opportunity vote against them.MP_SE said:So much for the special relationship... Quite sickening to see the likes of Osborne cheer on Obama snubbing the UK.
This pair think they are the UK. Time to get rid.
For the first time in about 18 years I'm going to vote Labour in the local elections in two weeks. Will feel weird but also, oddly, liberating..
In a million years I never thought I'd would warm to Corbyn when he became Lab leader and I still think many of his ideas are totally dotty but you can see that he is a very straight forward man with convictions and honesty.
I was impressed with Corbyn's tribute to HMQ the other day. Not putting on the smarm like Cameron but a genuinely warm tribute to her service while at the same time acknowledging he personally is a Republican.
Cameron and Osborne see politics as a game and you wonder if they really believe in anything except power for powers sake (I think the one conviction they do have is being passionate Europeans... But it just so happens they spent ten years lying about the only real convictions they have)
We'll see how it goes but I feel comfortable voting for Labour in this years local elections anyway.
I haven't voted Labour since the 70's but I will in the locals, I disagree with almost everything Corbyn says but at least he means it.
Never again would I ever consider voting for the likes of Cameron, Clegg, Osborne, Miliband and the rest. They are all the same person so what would be the point?0 -
Mr. Thompson, that does sound a bit like being in favour of drinking twelve pints of lager, and against having a hangover.0
-
Obama could equally have decided to "step over line" after the Leaver's shameful "Kenyan" innuendos.Plato_Says said:Totally agree - *back of the
linequeue* had Number 10 prints all over it.
I couldn't bring myself to comment yesterday, I was beyond insulted and livid - with Cameron.
Obama's never liked us, but I think he stepped way over the line at the behest of our own Prime Minister. Being threatened by the French in France wasn't unexpected - to have POTUS invited here to publicly threaten us, whilst Cameron acted like a grinning superfan was just a giant No.
This sort of behaviour that can't be stepped back from - once again Cameron has put the EU before his Party. He's destroying it from within. A Labour friend yesterday took great delight in telling me he was voting Leave, as it'd destroy the Tories for a generation. He's cockahoop.
Those Tory Remainers seeking to needle their fellow Party members or supporters need to be really careful what they wish for.stjohn said:I was quite uneasy watching that press conference with Obama and Cameron. It felt like an edited version of the POTUS/PM scene from "Love Actually". The "back of the queue" phrase certainly looks scripted and in my view was ill-judged. It's quite insulting to the UK. Also Cameron's evident delight at it all was rather off putting. This could very well backfire.
It is stretching it to believe that the President of the US does just what Dave tells him. If he does we have an incredibly powerful PM.0 -
We lose access to the single market and the four freedoms that it delivers. Why do that if there is no benefit on the other side?nigel4england said:
So how are we worse off if we leave then>SouthamObserver said:
You are insulting everyone's intelligence in stating Ibama said or even implied trade would cease between the UK and US. He didn't. He merely explained we would not get a deal that puts us in a better position than we are now.MarkHopkins said:Scott_P said:@faisalislam: 4. It's not a "threat". A trade deal takes two to tango. Nigel & Boris can't negotiate with themselves. Stated US policy to focus on blocs
The bloc of England, Wales, Scotland, and NI is a fairly important one to the US, no matter what Obama says in a choreographed speech with Cameron.
The idea that trade will cease between the US and the UK because of Brexit is just insulting.
0 -
Its a Schrodinger Cameron - simultaneously being buggered by Obama while he dictates the contents of his speech down to the choice of words.....I do wish the LEAVErs would make up their minds....SouthamObserver said:
And this:Scott_P said:@PeterMannionMP: Nice idea to see UK fingerprints on 'back of the queue' (not line), but OBAMA USES QUEUE IN LOTS OF SPEECHES. #EUref https://t.co/r8rolmRclM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2581034/British-invasion-Americans-start-saying-Queue-thanks-Netflix-33-million-U-S-subscribers.html0 -
And of course Camerons EU negotiations/reforms were a resounding success!SouthamObserver said:
Indeed. The thought of hysterical Leavers negotiating anything is quite frightening.Scott_P said:@trewloy: Nice summary from @faisalislam. Anyone ever involved in any form of negotiation knows you can't assume the other party will do what you want
@faisalislam: Basically, tis like saying someone who you quite fancy, engaged to someone else, has threatened you, by rejecting your marriage proposal
Actually they were (Cameron was never serious about renegotiation and reform so from that POV it was a resounding success)
0 -
Obama is most likely going to be followed on by Clinton who will have a pretty similar outlook. She will be in rush to do the British right any favours eitherMorris_Dancer said:Mr. P, so Obama's policy on a bilateral trade deal with the UK is going to be written into the Constitution? Impressive.
0 -
''The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.''
I think on this occasion you misunderstand the anger. Everybody knows Cameron is a europhile. Its the nature of his campaign that people are annoyed about, and what it has revealed about Cameron as a person and a politician.
He has pretended, for years, to be someone he is not.0 -
You keep playing the man, I'll keep playing the ball. Please continue to lie, it helps.JackW said:
Quite a rarity on PB for someone to concede they are ignorant. Congratulations @blackburn63 I admire your brutal honesty.blackburn63 said:
You've proved my point succinctly, thanks.foxinsoxuk said:
I suggest that you read the manifestoes of LD and Conservatives last May and review the leader debates from last year.blackburn63 said:
I'm happy for you to list their major policy differences.foxinsoxuk said:
Clegg and Cameron certainly have some things in common. They ran an effective government together.blackburn63 said:
Your continued attempts to twist what I say are infantile. My assertion was that Clegg and Cameron are identical in many ways.foxinsoxuk said:
"No true Tory can be for Remain, and all Remainers are quislings and traitors" (my paraphrase)blackburn63 said:
That's the point indigo is making, modern Conservatives relate more closely to the Guardian than the Telegraph. The people who said there wasn't a fag paper between Clegg and Cameron have been proven right.CarlottaVance said:
When the Guardian prints something I agree with, why not?Indigo said:
Tory loyalist quotes Guardian house view approvingly, now we really are through the looking-glass.CarlottaVance said:No, not familiar at all.....
That’s why Leavers try to pull their opponents down
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/22/the-guardian-view-on-a-key-week-in-the-eu-debate-obama-sends-the-right-message
Since the Times went behind a paywall I've found the best writing in the Guardian - the Telegraph is a sorry shadow of its former self.
The Leave campaign goes from strength to strength.
Cheers to St George. That Anatolian Greek and patron saint of Malta, Georgia, and part of the UK!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Of course, I'm sure you'll be able to counter that.
I said last May that, in time, Britons will look back on the Coalition as a golden era of good government. With the current government and official opposition as they are that is proving true. Nonetheless Cameron and Clegg had and continue to have major policy differences. Anyone who thinks them identical has clearly lost touch with UK politics.
It is not my job to cure your ignorance!0 -
I did vote Labour in the the early years of Blair (1995 to 1998 - These were my first elections) but it's certainly been a while...nigel4england said:
Yep, me too.GIN1138 said:
LOL!NickPalmer said:
Welcome aboard, comradeGIN1138 said:
Personally I'm warming to Jeremy Corbyn a lot. I'm increasingly finding him simple, straightforward and a mostly honest politician... Sure, he may hate the UK and everything it stands for but at least he's honest about it unlike the repulsive pair that's currently in charge.MP_SE said:
I am really really looking forward to the post-referendum split that will occur.GIN1138 said:
Make sure you remember what Cameron and Osborne have done. At every single available opportunity vote against them.MP_SE said:So much for the special relationship... Quite sickening to see the likes of Osborne cheer on Obama snubbing the UK.
This pair think they are the UK. Time to get rid.
For the first time in about 18 years I'm going to vote Labour in the local elections in two weeks. Will feel weird but also, oddly, liberating..
In a million years I never thought I'd would warm to Corbyn when he became Lab leader and I still think many of his ideas are totally dotty but you can see that he is a very straight forward man with convictions and honesty.
I was impressed with Corbyn's tribute to HMQ the other day. Not putting on the smarm like Cameron but a genuinely warm tribute to her service while at the same time acknowledging he personally is a Republican.
Cameron and Osborne see politics as a game and you wonder if they really believe in anything except power for powers sake (I think the one conviction they do have is being passionate Europeans... But it just so happens they spent ten years lying about the only real convictions they have)
We'll see how it goes but I feel comfortable voting for Labour in this years local elections anyway.
I haven't voted Labour since the 70's but I will in the locals, I disagree with almost everything Corbyn says but at least he means it.
Never again would I ever consider voting for the likes of Cameron, Clegg, Osborne, Miliband and the rest. They are all the same person so what would be the point? 0 -
The risk for Cameron is he wins the EURef like SLab won the IndyRef.Scott_P said:
Yes, the increasingly noisy whining from people that "Cameron is a winner" is amazingJackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
0 -
Indeed.Scott_P said:
Yes, the increasingly noisy whining from people that "Cameron is a winner" is amazingJackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
However let's not absolve REMAIN of blame in this Dutch auction of claim and counter claim. REMAIN has thumbed through the playbook of AV and SINDY and ramped from Project FEAR to Project APOCALYPSE.
LEAVE have moved from Project TITTER to Project WHINGE in one seamless move and the punters scratch their heads and will opt for the EU devil they know rather than the BREXIT devil they don't.
Then months do the line politics will move on and next year we'll all be wondering "Referendum, What Referendum?" and Cameron will have had another vote in his pocket to add to two other referenda victories and one and three quarters GE wins .... SeanT will travel the world. muttering "traitors", Nick Palmer will vainly implore us on the merits of Jezza, Plato's pussies will delight one and all and President Clinton on another visit to Downing Street will update us all on the precise position of Churchill's bust on the second floor of the White House - Boris will not be convinced but who will care?
0 -
Only 12 days till the Tories get another well deserved kicking in Scotland.CarlottaVance said:
9 weeks......what is it with LEAVE and numbers..... ;-)kle4 said:
There's still, sigh, 6 weeks to go. Heavens help us..JackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.0 -
Absolutely spot onCarlottaVance said:
So why do you bring it up?MarkHopkins said:
The idea that trade will cease between the US and the UK because of Brexit is just insulting.Scott_P said:@faisalislam: 4. It's not a "threat". A trade deal takes two to tango. Nigel & Boris can't negotiate with themselves. Stated US policy to focus on blocs
Whats insulting is LEAVErs making claims about US policy, then crying foul when the US President explains US policy.....0 -
A line is a physical thing, a queue can be either physical or virtual, such as a printer queue. The word is quite commonly understood in the USA.SouthamObserver said:
And this:Scott_P said:@PeterMannionMP: Nice idea to see UK fingerprints on 'back of the queue' (not line), but OBAMA USES QUEUE IN LOTS OF SPEECHES. #EUref https://t.co/r8rolmRclM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2581034/British-invasion-Americans-start-saying-Queue-thanks-Netflix-33-million-U-S-subscribers.html
Similarly I would expect a British PM to use US vernacular when speaking to a US audience.
Queue up here for your tinfoil hats...0 -
Mr. Alistair, quite. The question then becomes how the Conservatives tear him down and whether they have a civil war. If they do, it's an opportunity for the Lib Dems, UKIP, and Labour.
But also for the SNP. Whilst treading water is the best they can do in terms of MPs, if the Conservatives are embroiled in civil war, the SNP [the golds?] could hold the balance of power at Westminster.0 -
A central plank of the "Leave" argument is that any inevitable decline in trade with the EU post exit will be more than made up by significant increases in opportunities to trade with the wider world, unconstrained by the "protectionist" attitude of the EU to the wider world.nigel4england said:
So how are we worse off if we leave then>SouthamObserver said:
You are insulting everyone's intelligence in stating Ibama said or even implied trade would cease between the UK and US. He didn't. He merely explained we would not get a deal that puts us in a better position than we are now.MarkHopkins said:Scott_P said:@faisalislam: 4. It's not a "threat". A trade deal takes two to tango. Nigel & Boris can't negotiate with themselves. Stated US policy to focus on blocs
The bloc of England, Wales, Scotland, and NI is a fairly important one to the US, no matter what Obama says in a choreographed speech with Cameron.
The idea that trade will cease between the US and the UK because of Brexit is just insulting.0 -
I'm absolutely certain that if I were a Tory MP that favoured staying in the EU I would certainly make the odd sceptic comment to keep the headbangers in the constituency parties happy.tlg86 said:
Everything they said about the issue before the referendum is now history. When push came to shove they backed in, and that is all that will matter in the future.Plato_Says said:I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
0 -
I don't think that's correct. Facing the consequences of an out vote would be a nightmare and explaining what it means during the campaign would be even worse. If you think Boris and co are floundering just think what it would be like for Cameron. Woolly hand gestures wouldn't do. He'd have to have the future outside spelled out so everyone could understandPhilip_Thompson said:
If that was the case why did he back Remain? He'd have had a much easier ride if he'd gone for Leave.malcolmg said:
"beliefs", you are having a laugh. He would sell his granny for a pound, the creature has no beliefs just self interest.felix said:
Why on earth should he act against his beliefs?Casino_Royale said:
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.kle4 said:
Well, since that would happen if leave wins as well, I can see why he's focusing on the short term win - his days are PM are numbered either way.GideonWise said:Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.blackburn63 said:Alistair said:
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.CarlottaVance said:As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
0 -
Hillary will follow the same policy as Obama; Trump more likely to build a wall than a trade agreement.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, it does take two to tango. And we know Obama won't be dancing because he'll be out of office then.
0 -
I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?0 -
Quite. We are continually told by "Leave" supporters on here that it is not their job to lay out what happens post exit, that is for the Government to do. Well if the Government did back Leave then that would be absolutely true and you would probably find a lot of Leavers rather unhappy about what they were proposing.Roger said:
I don't think that's correct. Facing the consequences of an out vote would be a nightmare and explaining what it means during the campaign would be even worse. If you think Boris and co are floundering just think what it would be like for Cameron. Woolly hand gestures wouldn't do. He'd have to have the future outside spelled out so everyone could understandPhilip_Thompson said:
If that was the case why did he back Remain? He'd have had a much easier ride if he'd gone for Leave.malcolmg said:
"beliefs", you are having a laugh. He would sell his granny for a pound, the creature has no beliefs just self interest.felix said:
Why on earth should he act against his beliefs?Casino_Royale said:
If Cameron had come out for Leave, he'd have had at least 90% of his MPs with him and almost all the voluntary party.kle4 said:
Well, since that would happen if leave wins as well, I can see why he's focusing on the short term win - his days are PM are numbered either way.GideonWise said:Dave is a cockahoop now. He won't be when he has no functioning government, will be forced to resign early and his reputation will be trashed worst than Blair's.
Yes, but clearly uniting them was impossible. It has been hypothesised that if he'd gone for leave that would do it, but clearly it wouldn't as the MPs are split in half, or at least significantly if we accept the proposition some are just toeing the government line. And certainly more peope are angry at his tactics than the usual crowd, but I don't buy for one second that if he'd done everything the other side wanted there woukd not be hateful division right now, that is a total fantasy. There wouldn't be as much, but it'd be there.blackburn63 said:Alistair said:
The key is total derision of Cameron, not one word of criticism of Obama.CarlottaVance said:As we saw yesterday with Ashcroft's focus group, LEAVErs (the uncharitableindependence
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In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.taffys said:I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?
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If Cameron had backed Leave it would have also been much easier for the non-Tory opposition to unite against him. Campaigning against the Government and campaigning against "Leave" would have been one and the same. It would have looked much less like an internal Tory party struggle and therefore much easier to motivate non-Tory voters to get to the polls. The Remain campaign could have also explicitly focussed on all the nasty things the Tories would be perceived as wanting to do, but were prevented from doing so by being in the EU. And there would have been none of this "leave the EU and we spend £x more on the NHS we love nonsense" from the Leave side.0
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Thanks for reminding us of that. Boris has become a liability for Leave.foxinsoxuk said:
Yes, here is Boris singing the praises of the EU-USA trade deal in Oct 2014. One can only wonder which way the wind was blowing that day:rottenborough said:
Yeh, I agree. He looked pale and uneasy. I think he's realising what a terrible decision he has made.Roger said:
Freedland is always worth reading. I was at a party last night and in the three minutes of conversation about the referendum the only unanimity was how shifty Boris looked yesterday.Scott_P said:@AdamBienkov: Jonathan Freedland on the re-toxification of Boris Johnson's brand https://t.co/6uQ1ML7t0W https://t.co/WInKVCLGqW
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11173369/This-trade-deal-with-America-would-have-Churchill-beaming.html
In the article he cites non-tariff barriers as the main issue, and that the EU-USA deal is worth £10 billion annually to the UK economy.
Also that TTIP is no threat to the NHS...0 -
I'm going to repeat what I've said for weeks, pleased that several pb'ers are coming round to my way of thinking.
Most Labour voters are ambivalent about the EU, it is a tory issue. These labour voters will relish the opportunity to give Cameron a kicking and abstain. I'm not talking about the Guardian reading Islington set, I'm talking the millions of WWC. You can't spend years alienating people and then ask them to prop you up.
The arguments on here are facile, its yah boo nonsense. LEAVE should put billboards in every northern town with pictures of Cameron and Osborne grinning next to an EU flag. You have to fight fire with fire, Cameron has demonstrated what he's prepared to do, lets get the gloves off and have a proper fight.0 -
Trade will continue as it does now, with the US and other countries. All a Brexit vote will do is put our access to the single market at risk.foxinsoxuk said:
Hillary will follow the same policy as Obama; Trump more likely to build a wall than a trade agreement.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. P, it does take two to tango. And we know Obama won't be dancing because he'll be out of office then.
Leave has definitively lost the economic argument. They would do well to accept that and focus on sovereignty issues. We might be worse off, but we'll have more direct control. That has got to be their case, instead of making stupid claims about agreeing quick, beneficial deals.
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Your first sentence will have many PB Tories guffawing into their morning coffee. I supported the Coalition and have been prepared to give this government a fair wind.nigel4england said:
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?JackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
However I regard myself as an equal opportunity critic of all political parties with my instinct being that one should regard the voters relationship with government being that of a dog to a lamp post.
The EU vote is for British voters to decide but with important implications for our allies and trading partners. As such I have no problems that they express their view. Whether we take note is another matter.
My position on the vote is a small "c" conservative one. Is we are to change I need to be convinced that the balance of risk and gains outweigh the status quo and ongoing process. Presently I lean REMAIN but am prepared for LEAVE to have the opportunity to alter that situation. However I must say LEAVE need to present their case in a more coherent and measured fashion than we have seen so far. More Gove and less Boris would help.0 -
Still 3 more seats and Berwick for the SNP.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Alistair, quite. The question then becomes how the Conservatives tear him down and whether they have a civil war. If they do, it's an opportunity for the Lib Dems, UKIP, and Labour.
But also for the SNP. Whilst treading water is the best they can do in terms of MPs, if the Conservatives are embroiled in civil war, the SNP [the golds?] could hold the balance of power at Westminster.0 -
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.SouthamObserver said:
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.taffys said:I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?0 -
What "threat"? Back of the queue is a matter of fact, not threat. It would quickly change as a bilateral deal between us would be easy to write but we'll be starting largely from scratch while TTIP is already quite advanced.nigel4england said:
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?JackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
Seems infantile for every factual claim to be dismissed as a "threat".0 -
I put it down to our sense of optimism about the future - that in this case it will be shorterCarlottaVance said:
9 weeks......what is it with LEAVE and numbers..... ;-)kle4 said:
There's still, sigh, 6 weeks to go. Heavens help us..JackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them. Sometimes we do get carried away. 0 -
Obama is an anti-British has-been. He is trying to treat us like a poodle: "Do what we say or suddenly you won't be our closest ally after all." Thankfully, Clinton, Trump, Cruz and Kasich all come from the more traditional school of thought where they don't treat their allies like crap. We will jump to the front of the queue when they realise we are more effective at getting a deal done than the French and Italians.0
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Predictably the most sensible comment from the Leavers has been from David Owen. Rather than think their case is improved by beating up the messenger he explained why in his view Obama thought it in the US's interests that the UK remained in the EU.
He then went on to explain why he didn't agree-and was reasonably persuasive. Though whether he can undo the damage done by the official spokespeople for Leave is doubtful.0 -
So he insulted the PM, he did not say what he was asked to say? This is getting very confusing.taffys said:
Oh come on. 'Back of the queue?? in our own back yard??? in front of our own prime minister??? that's as big an insult as you can get in diplomatic terms.SouthamObserver said:
In what way did Obama imply we are a puny country? He merely stated that the US would not rush to give us a preferential trading deal post-Brexit. If Leavers cannot bear to hear such things surely they are the puny ones.taffys said:I'm rather glad Obama came and spelt it out for us. Britain. a puny country with a good PR department and a delusion of greatness. That's probably where we are. That's certainly Cameron's view.
Now its over to us. What are we going to do about it, if anything?
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It seems to me that a lot of people are having difficulty in understanding the difference between "agreeing new trade deals" and "abandoning existing trading arrangements". It is the leave campaign who are advocating "abandoning existing trading arrangements" (with the EU). They gleefully "threaten" the rest of the EU with this assumed cataclysmic (for the EU) outcome. They argue that their "threat" to the EU apparently is not also a problem for us because of all the shiny "new" deals we are going to do with the wider world, freed from the straightjacket of negotiating as part of the EU bloc. So Leave NEED new deals for their economic arguments to stack up. Suggestions from proposed trading partners that these will not happen, at least not quickly and simultaneously to our departure from the single market cannot in any sense be considered a "threat".Philip_Thompson said:
What "threat"? Back of the queue is a matter of fact, not threat. It would quickly change as a bilateral deal between us would be easy to write but we'll be starting largely from scratch while TTIP is already quite advanced.nigel4england said:
Jack, as a died in the wool Conservative are you happy to see this country threatened by first the French leader and then the POTUS, whilst the Conservative PM stands by smirking?JackW said:It's quite instructive to note the nonsensical hyperbole from many LEAVE PBers. It is so reminiscent on the AV and SINDY votes.
The losing team is incandescent that the PM should have the temerity to go for the win and as LEAVE prospects dwindles so they ramp up the outrage.
It's not as if they shouldn't have known what was coming and yet LEAVE have shown all the political acumen of Jezza contemplating sharing a platform with Gerry Adams the day before a general election.
Sensible LEAVE supporters must be furious and who can blame them.
If so then your Conservative values are diminishing very quickly.
Seems infantile for every factual claim to be dismissed as a "threat".0 -
No. It means you think the status quo is better than both deeper integration and leaving altogether.ThreeQuidder said:
But only if you're an expert in doublethink.Philip_Thompson said:
You can be simultaneously sceptical about the EU and deeper integration while being for Remaining in it.Plato_Says said:I'm not convinced by that - there are a significant number of Tory MPs who've claimed to be sceptics for years, and suddenly became unconvincing Remainers. They were clearly showing solidarity with Cameron. Now that's fine as far as it goes - but it doesn't mean that they're now europhiles.
IE you're in favour of the single market and our influence within it (hence remain) but not in favour of a United States of Europe (hence eurosceptic).0 -
No it's a case of being in favour of drinking but against being a drunk.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Thompson, that does sound a bit like being in favour of drinking twelve pints of lager, and against having a hangover.
Moderation is key.0
