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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,673
    edited April 2016
    Bugger, Victoria Wood has died.

    The Grim Reaper really has having a busy year
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    taffys said:

    Nah. After May 2015, who takes Meeks seriously? Or any other so called shrewdie on the site?
    They do.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214

    There is a simple remedy. People such as yourself can campaign for banks & other lenders to limit student loans to people who agree with the "free" market.

    You seem far keener on these things than me. You do it.

    The best thing that the rest of us could do re the NUS is ignore it.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651

    Bugger, Victoria Wood has died.

    The Grim Reaper really has having a busy ear

    God that's sad. I saw her at the Albert Hall. Brilliant.

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    The court found that he was kept isolated for excessive periods and too frequently subjected to unexpected inspections with insufficient reason to suspect a security risk. The main point was the lack of human contact. However, Breivik's appeal that he should be free to communicate on the internet and have visitors without restriction was rejected.The Government is paying his costs (roughly £35,000).

    As someone who lives in a two-room flat, I read about his 3-room detention with some wry amusement. But it's a good thing to have a legal system that considers absolutely anyone's case on its merits.
    The whole point of prison is to be kept isolated IMO.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,481
    If the Norwegians had taken me up on my offer to use Breivik as ammunition for the space cannon, this case would never have been heard.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    runnymede said:

    They do.
    It's their money. I always found, and continue to find, Chestnut's poll analyses invaluable.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,673
    edited April 2016
    AndyJS said:

    The whole point of prison is to be kept isolated IMO.
    If you want isolation, this is the case for you.

    The US Supreme Court will hear an appeal this Friday against the execution of Bobby James Moore, a prisoner who has spent nearly 36 years on death row in Texas.

    The facts are depressingly familiar. Moore was convicted after his gun went off in a hold-up that went wrong. A man died instantly. Moore is poor, black, from a broken home. As a kid he was regularly beaten by his father when he tried to protect his mother from his father’s abuse and lived on the streets from the age of 14. He has an IQ of less than 75.

    The murder was back in 1980. Moore has been on death row ever since. The last 15 years have been in solitary confinement. He spends at least 22.5 hours a day in his cell and has been allowed no physical human contact for 15 years. Food is pushed through a slot in the door. He speaks to visitors via telephone from an isolation unit. 15 years of not being able to touch someone? It's the sort of punishment the ancient Romans would have devised. The State has twice signed his death warrant and set a date for execution. One warrant was stayed five days before execution was scheduled, the other just 24 hours.

    http://www.rollonfriday.com/Blogs/ReadBlog/tabid/144/id/36425/Default.aspx
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Wisconsin - St Norbet Uni/WPR

    Clinton 46 .. Trump 34
    Clinton 45 .. Cruz 44

    Sanders 52 .. Trump 33
    Sanders 50 .. Cruz 40

    http://www.snc.edu/sri/docs/2016/201604wissurvey.pdf
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,309
    Cyclefree said:

    God that's sad. I saw her at the Albert Hall. Brilliant.

    Awful news.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    A % of conservatives would love to see the labour party destroyed and vice versa, I'd like both to split into two: a labour group led by Corbyn and another by Blair's disciples. The same with the tories: a group led by Cameron and another by a modern day Tebbitt. As it stands neither party has a unifying purpose beyond power.

    This site is increasingly becoming a parody of itself, its become a facebook site for sexually frustrated middle aged blokes in suits.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214
    Those who say that parties are only means to ends are right - but with the caveat that often they're the only realistic means to those ends. There are far more instances in history of parties tearing themselves apart and making themselves unelectable over some fiercely debated point than there are of such debates resulting in enough of a victory for one side to be subsequently able to implement that platform.
  • Cyclefree said:

    God that's sad. I saw her at the Albert Hall. Brilliant.

    It really is a shock who we've lost so suddenly this year... her brother in law taught me economics 'o' level and set me on my career...!!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651

    You seem far keener on these things than me. You do it.

    The best thing that the rest of us could do re the NUS is ignore it.
    The trouble is that having people like this in the NUS means that extremists do get a chance to spread more of their poison in universities, that Jewish students feel threatened, that the Prevent programmes get undermined and so on. So ignoring them is not enough. Those spreading these ideas need confronting and challenging and defeating. Hoping they will go away is not, I fear, enough.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214

    Has anyone seen this Guardian article on The Queen: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/20/queen-reign-failure-monarchy

    It comes across as really bitter. The comments' section also shows how unrepresentative (thankfully) The Guardian is. Quite a few Republicans there, when most people in the country support the monarchy. I'm finding CIF's constant 'goodies vs badies' view of the world, with no shades of gray to be irritating. They are just as bad, and if not worse than those in the DM comments' section.

    Perhaps that's because on present going, the Queen will last longer than The Guardian?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    taffys said:

    After May 2015, who takes Meeks seriously?

    Anyone who followed his advice to bet heavily on the SNP.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,507
    That seems fairly evenly divided between concerns that favour Leave (immigration, self-government, EU regulation) and those that favour Remain (economy, workers' rights).
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    JackW said:

    Wisconsin - St Norbet Uni/WPR

    Clinton 46 .. Trump 34
    Clinton 45 .. Cruz 44

    Sanders 52 .. Trump 33
    Sanders 50 .. Cruz 40

    http://www.snc.edu/sri/docs/2016/201604wissurvey.pdf

    I thought of you when reading Rudy Guiliani's comment today that Hillary will find Trump a much more difficult opponent than Cruz, because Cruz is a telegraphed, predictable politician.

    Our Rudy clearly isn;t a reader of polls!
  • Flockers_pbFlockers_pb Posts: 204

    Mr. Flockers, I hope you reconsider.

    Waiting for the perfect opportunity instead of seizing the once in a generation opportunity we have now could mean we don't get another vote for decades.

    Mr. Dancer, in the words of the zen master, "we'll see". That is one of the points I have been grappling with. But much as I felt the Yes campaign in the Scottish referendum blew it by not having a credible plan for self-governance, I believe the Leave campaign has singularly failed to prepare for their moment in the sun. It has been amateurish so far, a campaign built on instinct rather than thought. It troubles me that so many of its supporters are quick to disregard the views of institutions who were seen to be authoritative in the Scottish referendum, how quickly they have embraced arguments dismissed with ridicule just months ago, and dismissed arguments then made with force. On balance I don't think it is right to make a bad decision now for fear of not having another opportunity to make the same decision in the future when it might have different outcomes.



    The EU only integrates one way, and Brown's discarding of vetoes when he signed up to the Lisbon Treaty gives QMV more power than ever (and the eurozone has a critical mass for QMV. Even if every non-eurozone country opposes, the eurozone can impose its will throughout the EU).

    I agree with that, but again I don't accept that leaving is the only solution. We need better leadership of and in Europe and more creative thinking. The present structure, even with QMV, does not allow the EU to take jurisdiction over the areas of most concern to voters and they will; find it impossible to change that with national sentiment in many countries being what it is.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,234

    You can also the economy is divided into three different categories, adding up to 55%
    You can't just add them (Economy or immigration related ones), the intersects need to be subtracted as well - else you're assuming zero correlation between the issues.

    Adding "most important issue" is a quick workaround.

    Impact on economy + Impact on British jobs + ability to trade = 25

    Immigrants into Britain + Cost on welfare system + refugees + housing = 24
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    A % of conservatives would love to see the labour party destroyed and vice versa, I'd like both to split into two: a labour group led by Corbyn and another by Blair's disciples. The same with the tories: a group led by Cameron and another by a modern day Tebbitt. As it stands neither party has a unifying purpose beyond power.

    This site is increasingly becoming a parody of itself, its become a facebook site for sexually frustrated middle aged blokes in suits.

    Speak for yourself!
  • Anyone who followed his advice to bet heavily on the SNP.
    And the Tory MPs who share his articles.
  • Pulpstar said:

    You can't just add them (Economy or immigration related ones), the intersects need to be subtracted as well - else you're assuming zero correlation between the issues.

    Adding "most important issue" is a quick workaround.

    Impact on economy + Impact on British jobs + ability to trade = 25

    Immigrants into Britain + Cost on welfare system + refugees + housing = 24
    That was kinda my point, you can really add things together from that poll with 100% certainty.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    Meanwhile, Peter Doyle (ex-IMF economist) who please note does not support Brexit, has written a very interesting article on the Treasury 'study'. Some quite devastating critical points here, as well as some rather unusual perspectives later on.


    http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/04/20/2159639/on-hm-treasurys-brexit-analysis/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,507
    Incidentally, MORI has voting intention numbers, Con 38%, Lab 35%, UKIP 11%.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    @david_herdson Hah! The only reason why I'm not going to wish that on The Guardian is that a lot of people would lose their jobs (which would be sad for them and their families).

    And Victoria Wood. RIP. What the hell is going on with celebrity deaths? 2016 is so far is a truly rubbish year.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Looks like project fear/lies is working,never had a chance against the establishment.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    RoyalBlue said:

    Speak for yourself!
    Well I'm middle aged but there is a foolproof rule about those who talk about sex, they ain't getting any.
  • Ipsos Mori VI

    Con 38 (+2)

    Lab 35 (+1)

    UKIP 11 (nc)

    LD 6 (-4)

    Greens 3 (nc)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,234
    edited April 2016

    That was kinda my point, you can really add things together from that poll with 100% certainty.
    I did some analysis on one of the "issues" poll to test Mr Meek's hypothesis that the EU and immigration are seen as seperate issues.
    I came to the conclusion that voters concerned about hospitals tend to be concerned about schools too.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,524
    edited April 2016

    Ipsos Mori VI

    Con 38 (+2)

    Lab 35 (+1)

    UKIP 11 (nc)

    LD 6 (-4)

    Greens 3 (nc)

    How did LD manage to lose 4 points over the Panama Papers scandal ;-)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,400
    watford30 said:

    I'd warn mine off getting hitched to you. Who'd want a balding Russian with dodgy plastic surgery as a Son In Law?
    :lol:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,234

    Ipsos Mori VI

    Con 38 (+2)

    Lab 35 (+1)

    UKIP 11 (nc)

    LD 6 (-4)

    Greens 3 (nc)

    Well well look at that.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,481
    Mr. 63, perhaps they're not performing duets, but if music be the food of love then conducting oneself in a solo symphony is an option.

    Mr. Flockers, upon leaving a negotiation with the EU will occur, so there can't be a firm plan because it's a discussion between two sides, not one imposed by one upon the other.

    As for staying in with better governance etc, if I felt that were a genuine option, I'd vote to Remain. What we've seen is No votes repeatedly ignored, and an unwillingness to do anything beyond pausing in the continual march down the road of integration.

    I fear that what you want isn't on the menu. It's leave now, or integrate more.
  • How did LD manage to lose 4 points over the Panama Papers scandal ;-)
    The biggest shock out of all of this, UKIP haven't gotten a boost.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705
    edited April 2016
    I suppose at some point in all our lives (I am guessing a median age on PB of around 45-60) all those people, who have been part of our conscious cultural and environmental upbringing as we began to notice the world around us and stopped being young childfren, die.

    Perhaps that is why we are so affected by and notice them right now .
  • Pulpstar said:

    I did some analysis on one of the "issues" poll to test Mr Meek's hypothesis that the EU and immigration are seen as seperate issues.
    I came to the conclusion that voters concerned about hospitals tend to be concerned about schools too.
    I've got a thread coming up on that topic, and the gender splits.

    If Leave want to win, they need to reassure women
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    The biggest shock out of all of this, UKIP haven't gotten a boost.
    You and Dr fox are ukip obsessed.
  • You and Dr fox are ukip obsessed.
    No.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,507
    Conservatives favour Leave by 50-42% (52% to 39% among 2015 voters) , UKIP by 98-2%, while Labour favour Remain by 67-23%, and Lib Dems (albeit, small sample size) by 65-23%.

    There's less of a turnout gap with this poll than with others, those who are 9 or 10/10 likely to vote favour Remain by 49-42%.
  • Looks like project fear/lies is working,never had a chance against the establishment.

    Sack up dude.

    We didn't defeat the Nazis and Napoleon with that kind of attitude.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    taffys said:

    I thought of you when reading Rudy Guiliani's comment today that Hillary will find Trump a much more difficult opponent than Cruz, because Cruz is a telegraphed, predictable politician.

    Our Rudy clearly isn;t a reader of polls!
    Apart from those polls he read that told him he'd be POTUS right up to polling day.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited April 2016
    runnymede said:

    Meanwhile, Peter Doyle (ex-IMF economist) who please note does not support Brexit, has written a very interesting article on the Treasury 'study'. Some quite devastating critical points here, as well as some rather unusual perspectives later on.


    http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/04/20/2159639/on-hm-treasurys-brexit-analysis/

    It's a very strange article. He seems to be saying that the EU-FTA option might include full access to services and free movement. Well, yes, but in that case it's substantively the same as the EEA scenario.

    He's also naive on the politics:

    Granted, there are fundamental issues of prosperity and sovereignty to weigh in continued EU membership. But there were and are other approaches to settling those which would have avoided the risks—an enthusiastic information campaign to blunt calls for a referendum, a different approach to the internal politics of the Conservative party, and a less stridently Federalist tone from Europe.

    Give me a break!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255

    Whilst the current situation isn't perfect, the view articulated by Gove and Vote Leave is much worse. As contra, Richard Tyndall said he wasn't keen on Vote Leave's plans, but to him that was the better option than remaining, which again is a view I respect.

    As for the future, we don't like what the EU is becoming or has become, we can hold another referendum to leave, or elect a party at GE with a manifesto commitment to take us out of the EU.

    All the hallmarks of an independent, self governing nation.
    Again I think that is a terribly naïve and dangerous view to take. My personal view is that this is the last chance we have to leave on reasonable terms avoiding the worst of what is to come in the EU. From this point on not only will future PMs be extremely loath to reopen the question but we will see Britain's position within the EU deteriorating dramatically.

    And saying that a serf is not a serf because they can always by themselves out of servitude in the future is an extremely weak argument. As it stands as long as we remain in the EU we are not self governing and I would suggest not independent.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,674
    Victoria Wood RIP
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,309

    Looks like project fear/lies is working,never had a chance against the establishment.

    Face up. Long way to go yet.

    This was always going to be very hard to win. I'll be over the moon if we do, and we still have a good chance of running it quite close.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,674

    Ipsos Mori VI

    Con 38 (+2)

    Lab 35 (+1)

    UKIP 11 (nc)

    LD 6 (-4)

    Greens 3 (nc)

    Broken, sleazy LibDems on the slide?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,481
    Mr. Eagles, indeed, quite right to highlight Britain's historic successes fighting against the monstrosity of European empire-building.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    You and Dr fox are ukip obsessed.
    Yup .... Liam Fox would be a comfy fit for UKIP.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    The Issue Index - 10/10 to Vote - Most Important Issue

    REMAIN - 34

    Economy 20, Trade 4, Jobs 2, Workers Rights 2, Personal Impact 1, International Relations 1, Human Rights 1, Free Movement 1, Pro EU 1, Global Standing 1

    LEAVE - 37

    Immigrants 15, Sovereignty 8, Welfare Payouts 5, EU Fees 3, Security 2, Housing and Public Services 1, Refugees 1, EU Regulations 1, Anti EU 1
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    I've got a thread coming up on that topic, and the gender splits.

    If Leave want to win, they need to reassure women
    By writing thread headers about blow jobs
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Ipsos Mori VI

    Con 38 (+2)

    Lab 35 (+1)

    UKIP 11 (nc)

    LD 6 (-4)

    Greens 3 (nc)

    I spoke too soon with my cockiness of a 2011->2016 swing to Lab in the locals :(
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,674
    edited April 2016

    Sack up dude.

    We didn't defeat the Nazis and Napoleon with that kind of attitude.
    Hitler and Napoleon believed in a single European Super-State!

    Believe in BRITAIN!

    Be LEAVE!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705

    Again I think that is a terribly naïve and dangerous view to take. My personal view is that this is the last chance we have to leave on reasonable terms avoiding the worst of what is to come in the EU. From this point on not only will future PMs be extremely loath to reopen the question but we will see Britain's position within the EU deteriorating dramatically.

    And saying that a serf is not a serf because they can always by themselves out of servitude in the future is an extremely weak argument. As it stands as long as we remain in the EU we are not self governing and I would suggest not independent.
    At least you have now moved on to thinking it is your "personal view", rather than some eternal truth or profound reality.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,552

    Anyone who followed his advice to bet heavily on the SNP.
    He wasn't the only voice on that. I did say often enough (and gave reasons why) the SNP would poll 50% of the vote in Scotland. They got exactly 50%.

    I also had the temerity to gently chide JackW that his SNP seats was too low, his LibDem seats too high.

    That Mr Meeks got the SNP right does not mean (a) he was a lone voice in the wilderness on that point and (b) does not make him the go-to guy on the result of the Referendum...
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255

    Again that's fine, but don't expect some of us to sit idly by.
    It is sad to see you put party before country.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,507

    Broken, sleazy LibDems on the slide?
    6% is horrible with Ipsos Mori, which is usually quite Lib Dem friendly.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,552
    Danny565 said:

    I spoke too soon with my cockiness of a 2011->2016 swing to Lab in the locals :(
    You think the timing of the introduction of the national living wage was just coincidence?
  • By writing thread headers about blow jobs
    I did no such thing. I wrote a tweet, that Mike found 'robust' and he decided to incorporate into a thread.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,234
    chestnut said:

    The Issue Index - 10/10 to Vote - Most Important Issue

    REMAIN - 34

    Economy 20, Trade 4, Jobs 2, Workers Rights 2, Personal Impact 1, International Relations 1, Human Rights 1, Free Movement 1, Pro EU 1, Global Standing 1

    LEAVE - 37

    Immigrants 15, Sovereignty 8, Welfare Payouts 5, EU Fees 3, Security 2, Housing and Public Services 1, Refugees 1, EU Regulations 1, Anti EU 1

    I think "Jobs" could be on either side.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255
    TOPPING said:

    At least you have now moved on to thinking it is your "personal view", rather than some eternal truth or profound reality.
    Different subject. What we were talking about yesterday was basically just you talking garbage as if it were fact. And showing a remarkable amount of ignorance as well.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536

    It's a very strange article. He seems to be saying that the EU-FTA option might include full access to services and free movement. Well, yes, but in that case it's substantively the same as the EEA scenario.

    He's also naive on the politics:

    Granted, there are fundamental issues of prosperity and sovereignty to weigh in continued EU membership. But there were and are other approaches to settling those which would have avoided the risks—an enthusiastic information campaign to blunt calls for a referendum, a different approach to the internal politics of the Conservative party, and a less stridently Federalist tone from Europe.

    Give me a break!
    As I said, some unusual perspectives in there.

    But his economic points are very strong.

    I also think he is 100% right that if LEAVE does win there will be a rapid scramble for damage limitation by all sides which will mean an excellent chance for the UK to cut a very satisfactory deal. And given Peter's background he has a better insight on this than anyone posting on this board.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,552

    Broken, sleazy LibDems on the slide?

    Just when the gold standard pollster thinks they might have got the hang of things again...they have the LibDems losing 2 out of 5 of their voters in a month! Takes a heart of stone etc etc....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,674

    It is sad to see you put party before country.
    "No, the COUNTRY comes first!" - Liz Kendall, 2015.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,400
    taffys said:

    It seems to me that the 'immigration' issues have been divided up into about four questions of different sorts in that survey.

    Added together, they are more than the economy...
    Yes, but you get to give more than one answer (hence the fact the sum adds up to about 250), so you can't just aggregate them as many people will have (effectively) voted for immigration twice.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753

    Mr. Eagles, indeed, quite right to highlight Britain's historic successes fighting against the monstrosity of European empire-building.

    How on EARTH did we do that without being a member of the EU...??
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    That Mr Meeks got the SNP right does not mean (a) he was a lone voice in the wilderness on that point and (b) does not make him the go-to guy on the result of the Referendum...

    Quite so, but he's definitely someone well worth listening to, as you and others are.

    In the case of the GE I also was betting on the SNP, but not quite as full-throatedly as Alastair was. On the other hand, I didn't make his mistake of going all-in on NOM. Either way I'd always listen very carefully to what he has to say - he's one of the smartest posters here by any standard.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,705
    edited April 2016

    Different subject. What we were talking about yesterday was basically just you talking garbage as if it were fact. And showing a remarkable amount of ignorance as well.
    Don't panic Richard, we all let our guards down and allow the truth to slip out de temps en temps. You have acknowledged that all the stuff and nonsense you have been banging on about is your "personal view". I, personally, welcome that admission.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited April 2016

    Broken, sleazy LibDems on the slide?
    It can't be true,they winning some council seats ;-)
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    By writing thread headers about blow jobs
    If you find PB so offensive it's a wonder you trouble OGH and TSE with your presence.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,234

    He wasn't the only voice on that. I did say often enough (and gave reasons why) the SNP would poll 50% of the vote in Scotland. They got exactly 50%.

    I also had the temerity to gently chide JackW that his SNP seats was too low, his LibDem seats too high.

    That Mr Meeks got the SNP right does not mean (a) he was a lone voice in the wilderness on that point and (b) does not make him the go-to guy on the result of the Referendum...
    Alastair Meeks put alot of cash behind his prediction though, and wasn't wrong. In terms of tipping, backing your own tip, not wavering and ultimately being right - it is as good as you'll see in political betting.
  • It is sad to see you put party before country.

    I believe the best interests of the country are by remaining in the EU.

    If you want my real view, it probably is in the best interests of the Tory Party for the UK to Leave the EU.

    But I'm putting country before party.
  • Mr. Eagles, indeed, quite right to highlight Britain's historic successes fighting against the monstrosity of European empire-building.

    If only. Hitler & Napoleon lost to the Russians (& Kaiser Bill to the Yanks). Our part was to hold the fort until they could.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214

    The biggest shock out of all of this, UKIP haven't gotten a boost.
    The whole EURef debate is being dominated by Tories on both sides (perhaps because that's where the media's keen to look due to secondary stories - leadership challenges and the like). As such, it's shutting out UKIP as a pull factor and also keeping some Labour Leavers within the red tent as the Blair-Mandelson axis isn't around or visible to wind them up.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    runnymede said:

    I also think he is 100% right that if LEAVE does win there will be a rapid scramble for damage limitation by all sides which will mean an excellent chance for the UK to cut a very satisfactory deal. And given Peter's background he has a better insight on this than anyone posting on this board.

    I'm sure he's right on that, but the mechanics are awkward because of the cumbersome EU decision-making process, and the fact that the UK's goals would not immediately be clear. Those two considerations add considerable uncertainty into the mix.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    JackW said:

    If you find PB so offensive it's a wonder you trouble OGH and TSE with your presence.
    I don't find it offensive and have no idea why would suggest I do.

    Do you tweet about blow jobs? If not why not?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214

    It is sad to see you put party before country.
    Depends on how you view it. If you see the EU as a massive issue, more important than the odd GE, then the referendum is the priority. On the other hand, if you see EU membership as important but not worth handing the country to Corbyn over, then being in a position to win in 2020 matters more. The EU is just one policy. A different government could change everything.
  • taffys said:

    How on EARTH did we do that without being a member of the EU...??
    We defeated Napoleon as part as a vast Europe wide coalition, and with some of our Canadian cousins too.

    As for World War II, we did it as part of a Europe Wide alliance, with massive help from our Empire forces.
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536

    I'm sure he's right on that, but the mechanics are awkward because of the cumbersome EU decision-making process, and the fact that the UK's goals would not immediately be clear. Those two considerations add considerable uncertainty into the mix.
    It's only cumbersome if people want it to be - Peter's point is precisely that they wouldn't.

    Nor would it take long to thrash out a sensible set of goals from the UK side. I know you like to make it sound like everything is just too complicated to bother with, but it really isn't.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,677
    Oops, £40,000 lost down the back of the sofa... latest item in the live blog.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/20/eu-referendum-brexit-would-put-special-relationship-with-us-at-risk-uk-warned-politics-live

    The question of whether the spending was local is more critical, since in theory in puts 22 Tory seats at immediate risk. In practice it depends on local police and prosecutors whether they choose to take it up.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,309

    I believe the best interests of the country are by remaining in the EU.

    If you want my real view, it probably is in the best interests of the Tory Party for the UK to Leave the EU.

    But I'm putting country before party.
    I have to admire your chutzpah.
  • We defeated Napoleon as part as a vast Europe wide coalition, and with some of our Canadian cousins too.

    As for World War II, we did it as part of a Europe Wide alliance, with massive help from our Empire forces.
    In both cases, the Russians did the hard yards.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,674

    We defeated Napoleon as part as a vast Europe wide coalition, and with some of our Canadian cousins too.

    As for World War II, we did it as part of a Europe Wide alliance, with massive help from our Empire forces.
    Part of a Coalition and an Alliance - not a Political Union.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Hitler and Napoleon believed in a single European Super-State!

    Believe in BRITAIN!

    Be LEAVE!
    Be as funny as typhoid, perhaps.

    And learn some history.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,481
    Mr. Abroad, the role of Quintus Fabius Maximus may not garner the glory of Scipio Africanus, but it's just as vital.

    Mr. Palmer, the US has no business meddling in how we vote. That'll annoy more people than it'll worry.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,787

    We defeated Napoleon as part as a vast Europe wide coalition, and with some of our Canadian cousins too.

    As for World War II, we did it as part of a Europe Wide alliance, with massive help from our Empire forces.
    Eagles = Neville Chamberlain

    Tykejohnno = Winston Churchill
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    Oops, £40,000 lost down the back of the sofa... latest item in the live blog.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/20/eu-referendum-brexit-would-put-special-relationship-with-us-at-risk-uk-warned-politics-live

    The question of whether the spending was local is more critical, since in theory in puts 22 Tory seats at immediate risk. In practice it depends on local police and prosecutors whether they choose to take it up.

    Hardly a cause celebre
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,674

    I believe the best interests of the country are by remaining in the EU.

    If you want my real view, it probably is in the best interests of the Tory Party for the UK to Leave the EU.

    But I'm putting country before party.
    Naught but Europhile Propaganda!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,787
    Tykejohnno = Bulldog

    Eagles = neutered poodle
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,309
    chestnut said:

    The Issue Index - 10/10 to Vote - Most Important Issue

    REMAIN - 34

    Economy 20, Trade 4, Jobs 2, Workers Rights 2, Personal Impact 1, International Relations 1, Human Rights 1, Free Movement 1, Pro EU 1, Global Standing 1

    LEAVE - 37

    Immigrants 15, Sovereignty 8, Welfare Payouts 5, EU Fees 3, Security 2, Housing and Public Services 1, Refugees 1, EU Regulations 1, Anti EU 1

    That's quite revealing I think.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,214

    We defeated Napoleon as part as a vast Europe wide coalition, and with some of our Canadian cousins too.

    As for World War II, we did it as part of a Europe Wide alliance, with massive help from our Empire forces.
    I thought our Canadian cousins were seeing off the over-confident Americans at the time?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    runnymede said:

    It's only cumbersome if people want it to be - Peter's point is precisely that they wouldn't.

    No, it's cumbersome because it's cumbersome, involving a disparate group of countries each with their own agendas and domestic political issues, as well the EU bureaucracy and the European Parliament. It's not even quite clear whether it would require unanimity amongst the other 27 EU governments, but it might. At the very least it will require a QMV majority. So whilst the main participants might indeed want to come to a deal quickly, that's not enough to ensure that they'll be able to.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    As a kipper the poll that gives Ukip 11% is hugely optimistic, at the next GE we'll have no funds, no coherent message, no real purpose. Single figures
  • John_N4John_N4 Posts: 553
    Indigo said:

    Nope, Vienna Convention of 1969, says that the termination of a treaty "does not affect any right, obligation or legal situation of the parties created through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination.”
    But the "parties" are the states.

    Ideally I would like her to be thrown out!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,234

    That's quite revealing I think.
    I'm not sure "Jobs" should be entirely within "Remain" to be honest. "Security" might also be partially "remain" though...

    It's probably fair on balance.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,674

    I thought our Canadian cousins were seeing off the over-confident Americans at the time?
    War of 1812.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812
  • I thought our Canadian cousins were seeing off the over-confident Americans at the time?
    Epic brainfart on my part.

    I'm off to Canada for a holiday this year, and I've got Brunswick on the brain
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255
    TOPPING said:


    Don't panic Richard, we all let our guards down and allow the truth to slip out de temps en temps. You have acknowledged that all the stuff and nonsense you have been banging on about is your "personal view". I, personally, welcome that admission.

    Sorry Topping but these strange misquotes really don't fool anyone. All they show is that your actual grasp of the subject matter is so flaky and shallow that you have to rely upon deflection rather than dealing with the issues. Of course the problem is that you write opinion as fact whereas I make a point of distinguishing between the two.

    So please do continue with your asides. At least they save us from your fantasy ideas about how the EEA or EFTA work which bear no resemblance to reality at all.
This discussion has been closed.