Some interesting observations from Eleanor Sharpston QC, who is an Advocate General at the ECJ and in fact Britain's longest serving member there. She claims that the ECJ would be diminished by a Brexit as the UK has made a positive contribution to the Court introducing pragmatism and common law sensibilities. She also said this in the context of the increasing case load of the court: “Various things are happening simultaneously.
“Over the years other competences have come within the field of EU law … by common agreement of EU states. It’s not that the EU grabbed new powers…
“[Now] we get cases which are about immigration, asylum and European arrest warrants … All of this is much closer to the core business of Strasbourg. EU law is engaged in a wider range of topics now because that’s what member states wanted. There are more cases where there may be fundamental rights aspects,”
Well, its a view. I just don't remember anyone ever asking us about this.
Why would BREXIT impact ethnic minorities significantly more than other groups of people e.g. people in low paid jobs? I am not sure even what spin line people will have swallowed to come to that conclusion.
Because Leavers are obviously racists who want to take Britain back to the 1950s. Surely any right-on person can see that?
Given that much of the Remain campaign so far has centred on the characters of those leading Leave and that Mr Meeks is one of the worst offenders for this - not least with his continual claims about fearing what the country would be like socially after a Leave vote - I find this thread header more than a little one sided.
If Leave win on low turnout then a lot of personal negativity will probably work in their favour.
I still think they need to work on a Hope narrative though.
OT somewhat but responding to your comment on the previous thread.
Yes, there have been plenty of people proposing a single unified legal code for the EU. It has drifted onto the backburners in recent years but the Corpus Juris project was just that and was very prominent from the late 1990s into the mid 2000s
One of "Leave"'s biggest problem is that the character assassinations so far just haven't been all that good or memorable. Osborne in particular is low hanging fruit here.
The problem is that the attacks have been bonkers. Rubbishing the independence, integrity and expertise of the Treasury, Bank of England, IMF, all of the G20 finance ministers, US ex-Treasury Secretaries, Obama, all the banks, most academic economists, the CBI, and everyone else who expresses an opinion or produces a forecast not to their liking, just looks silly. One or two they might get away with, but the cumulative effect will be that voters think 'maybe these aren't scare stories after all'.
The Leave side need a different response; rather than attacking the messengers, they should put forward a simple, understandable, soundbite-ready argument for why these distinguished people are mistaken. And never, ever, impugn their integrity - that is hugely counter-productive.
Once again Alistair Meeks shows astonishing kindness in offering free, unsolicited advice to the Vote Leave campaign, despite being a passionate (rabid is such an ugly word) supporter of the other side. In terms of the advice offered, it's totally the opposite of what Vote Leave should be doing, but I'm sure that's cock up rather than conspiracy.
Come now. Personal attacks never work.
Which must be why the Tories employed them to such great effect with the Crosby guided ones on Miliband during the GE. Has Meeks forgotten the posters of hapless Ed in Eck's shirt pocket already? And the oft reprinted bacon sandwich photos.
I do sometimes wonder whether anyone actually bothers to read the articles at all and whether everyone just makes up their own version of what I've written.
I read them. I enjoy them. I hope I understand them.
Given that much of the Remain campaign so far has centred on the characters of those leading Leave and that Mr Meeks is one of the worst offenders for this - not least with his continual claims about fearing what the country would be like socially after a Leave vote - I find this thread header more than a little one sided.
Undecided voters: look at the picture of Richard Tyndall. Does he look like the kind of person you'd like your daughter to marry?
Now, ask yourself? If you wouldn't want your daughter to marry Mr Tyndall, that must mean you distrust him. And if you distrust him, you must ignore whatever he says on the subject of Brexit.
"Ad hominem attacks are nothing new of course. But the speed with which Leavers have been reaching for them is noteworthy. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that this is a conscious strategy. This begs the question: why?"
I think this is the nature of believing you're facing forces much larger than your own. It gives you a siege mentality.
Once again Alistair Meeks shows astonishing kindness in offering free, unsolicited advice to the Vote Leave campaign, despite being a passionate (rabid is such an ugly word) supporter of the other side. In terms of the advice offered, it's totally the opposite of what Vote Leave should be doing, but I'm sure that's cock up rather than conspiracy.
Come now. Personal attacks never work.
Which must be why the Tories employed them to such great effect with the Crosby guided ones on Miliband during the GE. Has Meeks forgotten the posters of hapless Ed in Eck's shirt pocket already? And the oft reprinted bacon sandwich photos.
I do sometimes wonder whether anyone actually bothers to read the articles at all and whether everyone just makes up their own version of what I've written.
Interestingly enough it does look like there has been a shift to Remain in the polling, so Remain's strategy is working/Leave's isn't.
Sir Lynton also agrees.
The average lead for Remain in April has been 3%. If there has been a shift, it's almost imperceptible.
Elections and referendums aren't races in which the state of play is shown in the polls, in the sense that one might say this horse is leading a mile from the finish, or that horse is leading at the last fence.
Given that much of the Remain campaign so far has centred on the characters of those leading Leave and that Mr Meeks is one of the worst offenders for this - not least with his continual claims about fearing what the country would be like socially after a Leave vote - I find this thread header more than a little one sided.
Undecided voters: look at the picture of Richard Tyndall. Does he look like the kind of person you'd like your daughter to marry?
Now, ask yourself? If you wouldn't want your daughter to marry Mr Tyndall, that must mean you distrust him. And if you distrust him, you must ignore whatever he says on the subject of Brexit.
I'd warn mine off getting hitched to you. Who'd want a balding Russian with dodgy plastic surgery as a Son In Law?
Interestingly enough it does look like there has been a shift to Remain in the polling, so Remain's strategy is working/Leave's isn't.
Sir Lynton also agrees.
The average lead for Remain in April has been 3%. If there has been a shift, it's almost imperceptible.
Elections and referendums aren't races in which the state of play is shown in the polls, in the sense that one might say this horse is leading a mile from the finish, or that horse is leading at the last fence.
Of course, that's true. I'd still favour Remain to win, but not by much.
One of "Leave"'s biggest problem is that the character assassinations so far just haven't been all that good or memorable. Osborne in particular is low hanging fruit here.
The problem is that the attacks have been bonkers. Rubbishing the independence, integrity and expertise of the Treasury, Bank of England, IMF, all of the G20 finance ministers, US ex-Treasury Secretaries, Obama, all the banks, most academic economists, the CBI, and everyone else who expresses an opinion or produces a forecast not to their liking, just looks silly. One or two they might get away with, but the cumulative effect will be that voters think 'maybe these aren't scare stories after all'.
The Leave side need a different response; rather than attacking the messengers, they should put forward a simple, understandable, soundbite-ready argument for why these distinguished people are mistaken. And never, ever, impugn their integrity - that is hugely counter-productive.
To my ears the phrase 'distinguished people' sounds cap doffingly craven.
We have entrusted Western Society to these 'distinguished people' for decades in one form or another, and a right royal f8ck up they have made of it too.
Once again Alistair Meeks shows astonishing kindness in offering free, unsolicited advice to the Vote Leave campaign, despite being a passionate (rabid is such an ugly word) supporter of the other side. In terms of the advice offered, it's totally the opposite of what Vote Leave should be doing, but I'm sure that's cock up rather than conspiracy.
Come now. Personal attacks never work.
Which must be why the Tories employed them to such great effect with the Crosby guided ones on Miliband during the GE. Has Meeks forgotten the posters of hapless Ed in Eck's shirt pocket already? And the oft reprinted bacon sandwich photos.
I do sometimes wonder whether anyone actually bothers to read the articles at all and whether everyone just makes up their own version of what I've written.
You must make allowances for us homophobic, racist loons
Interestingly enough it does look like there has been a shift to Remain in the polling, so Remain's strategy is working/Leave's isn't.
Sir Lynton also agrees.
The average lead for Remain in April has been 3%. If there has been a shift, it's almost imperceptible.
Elections and referendums aren't races in which the state of play is shown in the polls, in the sense that one might say this horse is leading a mile from the finish, or that horse is leading at the last fence.
Of course, that's true. I'd still favour Remain to win, but not by much.
Once again Alistair Meeks shows astonishing kindness in offering free, unsolicited advice to the Vote Leave campaign, despite being a passionate (rabid is such an ugly word) supporter of the other side. In terms of the advice offered, it's totally the opposite of what Vote Leave should be doing, but I'm sure that's cock up rather than conspiracy.
Come now. Personal attacks never work.
Which must be why the Tories employed them to such great effect with the Crosby guided ones on Miliband during the GE. Has Meeks forgotten the posters of hapless Ed in Eck's shirt pocket already? And the oft reprinted bacon sandwich photos.
I do sometimes wonder whether anyone actually bothers to read the articles at all and whether everyone just makes up their own version of what I've written.
Well I do find them a bit of a chore I will admit, but in this case I did read all the way to the end.
Once again Alistair Meeks shows astonishing kindness in offering free, unsolicited advice to the Vote Leave campaign, despite being a passionate (rabid is such an ugly word) supporter of the other side. In terms of the advice offered, it's totally the opposite of what Vote Leave should be doing, but I'm sure that's cock up rather than conspiracy.
Come now. Personal attacks never work.
Which must be why the Tories employed them to such great effect with the Crosby guided ones on Miliband during the GE. Has Meeks forgotten the posters of hapless Ed in Eck's shirt pocket already? And the oft reprinted bacon sandwich photos.
I do sometimes wonder whether anyone actually bothers to read the articles at all and whether everyone just makes up their own version of what I've written.
You must make allowances for us homophobic, racist loons
Personally I'm far to busy torpedoeing immigrant boats in the Med to do more than skim read most posts.
@JamieRoss7: The two most-photographed SNP politicians in the manifesto:
- Nicola Sturgeon with 31 photos - Mhairi Black with 3 photos
@JamieRoss7: Trying to spot a photo without Sturgeon in the manifesto is a fun game for all of you playing along at home. Like an inverse Where's Wally.
How about calling us LEAVERs "loons"? Is that not playing the man (or woman)?
In the past 24 hours us Remainers have been called traitors.
All you Leavers are doing is awaken the sleeping giant that are Remainers and fill them with a terrible resolve
TSE - Christmas 2015 "my friends think Leave will win because I'm planning to vote Leave" TSE - February 2016 - "awful deal - firming up" TSE - 2 weeks ago "my heart says Leave" TSE - last weekend "you pb'ers have convinced me to campaign for Remain - thanks" TSE - today "eurosceptic loons", "us Remainers"
My patience is being tested by some on the Leave side.
Don't be surprised if I reply in kind.
You yourself talked about destroying the Tory Party to win.
That's what actually convinced me in part to go campaigning for Remain.
I know what happened the last time the Tory Party became obsessed with The EU
I didn't. I said the country was more important than the party and that if Cameron's career had to be sacrificed to achieve that then, regrettably, that must be. Politics is brutal.
And I did that after you welched to Remain, not before.
One of "Leave"'s biggest problem is that the character assassinations so far just haven't been all that good or memorable. Osborne in particular is low hanging fruit here.
The problem is that the attacks have been bonkers. Rubbishing the independence, integrity and expertise of the Treasury, Bank of England, IMF, all of the G20 finance ministers, US ex-Treasury Secretaries, Obama, all the banks, most academic economists, the CBI, and everyone else who expresses an opinion or produces a forecast not to their liking, just looks silly. One or two they might get away with, but the cumulative effect will be that voters think 'maybe these aren't scare stories after all'.
The Leave side need a different response; rather than attacking the messengers, they should put forward a simple, understandable, soundbite-ready argument for why these distinguished people are mistaken. And never, ever, impugn their integrity - that is hugely counter-productive.
To my ears the phrase 'distinguished people' sounds cap doffingly craven.
We have entrusted Western Society to these 'distinguished people' for decades in one form or another, and a right royal f8ck up they have made of it too.
Cap doffingly craven? Richard? Surely some mistake?
How about calling us LEAVERs "loons"? Is that not playing the man (or woman)?
In the past 24 hours us Remainers have been called traitors.
All you Leavers are doing is awaken the sleeping giant that are Remainers and fill them with a terrible resolve
TSE - Christmas 2015 "my friends think Leave will win because I'm planning to vote Leave" TSE - February 2016 - "awful deal - firming up" TSE - 2 weeks ago "my heart says Leave" TSE - last weekend "you pb'ers have convinced me to campaign for Remain - thanks" TSE - today "eurosceptic loons", "us Remainers"
Well quite. He was "undecided" in the same way as Meeks and Nabavi were. At least Dr FoxInSocksEU had the intellectual honesty to wear his pro-EU credentials on his sleeve.
I said TSE is not to be trusted, please read this in full and draw your own conclusions:
TSE & OGH. The ICM tables for the two recent polls are now available on download. http://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/ (It has both polls in the tables, phone poll first)
Can we please have one thread dedicated to looking at these please?
Had Cameron behaved in a less high-handed (and cackhanded) manner, and Osborne likewise, the ructions would've been far less serious for the Conservatives. Similarly (although this may've been caused by the aforementioned arrogance) IDS may not have resigned [although the manner in which he did so and the language he used was, from a party political perspective, indicative of a man who is either stupid or unconcerned at the prospect of harming his party].
Zhuge Liang wrote of five types of evil in decadence among national armed forces, the first of which is: The first is the formation of factions that band together for character assassination, criticising and vilifying the wise and the good.
Both sides have disparate groups and much mud has been thrown in either direction. Alas.
Were it not so, perhaps the referendum discussions would be as civil as those about kings, volcanoes and F1.
The court found that he was kept isolated for excessive periods and too frequently subjected to unexpected inspections with insufficient reason to suspect a security risk. The main point was the lack of human contact. However, Breivik's appeal that he should be free to communicate on the internet and have visitors without restriction was rejected.The Government is paying his costs (roughly £35,000).
As someone who lives in a two-room flat, I read about his 3-room detention with some wry amusement. But it's a good thing to have a legal system that considers absolutely anyone's case on its merits.
He probably had to wipe his own bottom, or fetch his own drinks.
How the hell did his brief plead that case or the judge come to such a conclusion.
Did they have conscience bypasses or were they born utter shits ?
Norway's law and all but that's made me furious.
The biggest misnomer in history is that we judge a society by the way it treats prisoners. This piece of filth slaughtered dozens of children, now taxpayers are funding his defence.
@JamieRoss7: The two most-photographed SNP politicians in the manifesto:
- Nicola Sturgeon with 31 photos - Mhairi Black with 3 photos
@JamieRoss7: Trying to spot a photo without Sturgeon in the manifesto is a fun game for all of you playing along at home. Like an inverse Where's Wally.
Harsh on the SNP. They have a trump card, know it, and are using it for all their worth. Labour, if to a lesser extent, are doing something similar in Wales where Carwyn is seen as head and shoulders above anybody else as best for the top job and so they have him front and centre and Jeremy thingy from London is the invisible man.
The court found that he was kept isolated for excessive periods and too frequently subjected to unexpected inspections with insufficient reason to suspect a security risk. The main point was the lack of human contact. However, Breivik's appeal that he should be free to communicate on the internet and have visitors without restriction was rejected.The Government is paying his costs (roughly £35,000).
As someone who lives in a two-room flat, I read about his 3-room detention with some wry amusement. But it's a good thing to have a legal system that considers absolutely anyone's case on its merits.
An interesting and perceptive piece. Clearly elements of Leave have looked across the pond and decided to model their campaign on the nomination circus of Donald Trump. Once can see the appeal. Trump has hurled barbs and impugnments around about his opponents with abandon, confident that they’ll be tolerated or even relished simply because he’s sticking one to authority. Leave are mimicking Trump’s brand of Punk Politics. The EU, Toryism, George Osborne must all feel the toe of Leave’s doc martin in their backsides. For many who compose Leave, this is the first time in their lives they've been able to be genuinely naughty and not feel guilty about it. How much of this is actually about the EU? How much is reliving a feckless youth they never had?
How about calling us LEAVERs "loons"? Is that not playing the man (or woman)?
In the past 24 hours us Remainers have been called traitors.
All you Leavers are doing is awaken the sleeping giant that are Remainers and fill them with a terrible resolve
TSE - Christmas 2015 "my friends think Leave will win because I'm planning to vote Leave" TSE - February 2016 - "awful deal - firming up" TSE - 2 weeks ago "my heart says Leave" TSE - last weekend "you pb'ers have convinced me to campaign for Remain - thanks" TSE - today "eurosceptic loons", "us Remainers"
My patience is being tested by some on the Leave side.
Don't be surprised if I reply in kind.
You yourself talked about destroying the Tory Party to win.
That's what actually convinced me in part to go campaigning for Remain.
I know what happened the last time the Tory Party became obsessed with The EU
I didn't. I said the country was more important than the party and that if Cameron's career had to be sacrificed to achieve that then, regrettably, that must be. Politics is brutal.
And I did that after you welched to Remain, not before.
Stop looking for a scapegoat.
No, I moved after the report at work.
I moved to campaigning in part, after you wrote this on Saturday, prior to that, I was content to sit the campaign out. It was exactly this sort of comment I heard in the 90s.
I care far more about this country, and its prospects of being an independent self-governing nation again, than I do about the Conservative Party. To me, the latter is a means to an end: to advance the politics I feel will give us the brightest future. Just like most normal people.
If wrecking trust in David Cameron, and sacrificing his political career in the process, is what it takes for a majority of this country to Vote Leave, then that's what must be done.
As Emperor Kahless said "Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat."
We are an independent self governing nation. If we weren't, we wouldn't be having this referendum.
How about calling us LEAVERs "loons"? Is that not playing the man (or woman)?
In the past 24 hours us Remainers have been called traitors.
All you Leavers are doing is awaken the sleeping giant that are Remainers and fill them with a terrible resolve
TSE - Christmas 2015 "my friends think Leave will win because I'm planning to vote Leave" TSE - February 2016 - "awful deal - firming up" TSE - 2 weeks ago "my heart says Leave" TSE - last weekend "you pb'ers have convinced me to campaign for Remain - thanks" TSE - today "eurosceptic loons", "us Remainers"
Well quite. He was "undecided" in the same way as Meeks and Nabavi were. At least Dr FoxInSocksEU had the intellectual honesty to wear his pro-EU credentials on his sleeve.
I said TSE is not to be trusted, please read this in full and draw your own conclusions:
Presumably this is the scare story about how we will apparently cancel all visas the day after BrExit and frog march all the nasty foreigners (especially one presume the brown ones, since Leave are supposedly a pile of racists) on to airplanes "home"
It's bollocks.
That's a shame, for those of us who have ex-spouses from EEA countries who enjoy "EU residence rights" here.
Nope, Vienna Convention of 1969, says that the termination of a treaty "does not affect any right, obligation or legal situation of the parties created through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination.”
The court found that he was kept isolated for excessive periods and too frequently subjected to unexpected inspections with insufficient reason to suspect a security risk. The main point was the lack of human contact. However, Breivik's appeal that he should be free to communicate on the internet and have visitors without restriction was rejected.The Government is paying his costs (roughly £35,000).
As someone who lives in a two-room flat, I read about his 3-room detention with some wry amusement. But it's a good thing to have a legal system that considers absolutely anyone's case on its merits.
The court found that he was kept isolated for excessive periods and too frequently subjected to unexpected inspections with insufficient reason to suspect a security risk. The main point was the lack of human contact. However, Breivik's appeal that he should be free to communicate on the internet and have visitors without restriction was rejected.The Government is paying his costs (roughly £35,000).
As someone who lives in a two-room flat, I read about his 3-room detention with some wry amusement. But it's a good thing to have a legal system that considers absolutely anyone's case on its merits.
How about calling us LEAVERs "loons"? Is that not playing the man (or woman)?
In the past 24 hours us Remainers have been called traitors.
All you Leavers are doing is awaken the sleeping giant that are Remainers and fill them with a terrible resolve
TSE - Christmas 2015 "my friends think Leave will win because I'm planning to vote Leave" TSE - February 2016 - "awful deal - firming up" TSE - 2 weeks ago "my heart says Leave" TSE - last weekend "you pb'ers have convinced me to campaign for Remain - thanks" TSE - today "eurosceptic loons", "us Remainers"
Well quite. He was "undecided" in the same way as Meeks and Nabavi were. At least Dr FoxInSocksEU had the intellectual honesty to wear his pro-EU credentials on his sleeve.
I said TSE is not to be trusted, please read this in full and draw your own conclusions:
Once again Alistair Meeks shows astonishing kindness in offering free, unsolicited advice to the Vote Leave campaign, despite being a passionate (rabid is such an ugly word) supporter of the other side. In terms of the advice offered, it's totally the opposite of what Vote Leave should be doing, but I'm sure that's cock up rather than conspiracy.
So, you think that Leave should indulge in personal attacks rather than engage on the issues?
Personal attacks is a loaded term. I wouldn't want them to start saying Mark Carney's wife has fat ankles and Obama has paint-stripping halitosis. What I do want them to do; what they must do, is promote justified suspicion as to the strangely altruistic motivations of those establishment figures, national and international, piling in to urge us to Remain. In some cases this is quite easy. America has obvious reasons for wanting us to Remain. They also have obvious reasons for wanting us to join their wars - doesn't mean it's a particularly good idea. Other EU nations of course have their own reasons too. Any internationals can be batted off rather easily and pithily. Leave need to shoot the messenger, as well as the message - I've said this from the very beginning. If anyone finds this too rich for their palate, I don't really care. Why should Leave be expected to observe Queensberry rules when the other side are using every means, fair or foul, to keep us locked into this ghastly organisation for the next 40 years?
I am wondering who the hell voted for the new nutjob NUS president. As far as I can tell even left wingers are up in arms at her getting power.
The NUS is an ideal organisation for far-left takeover. It has an arcane structure, operating through various tiers of hierarchy and so making it difficult to hold anyone to account, and it attracts left-wing activists in numbers greatly disproportionate to their true frequency among the student population because it's a largely pointless organisation and only those interested in using it as a platform will go in for it - something which becomes reinforcing once one group has established itself there.
Mr. Eagles, the referendum is not merely about the present but the future, about which you've also raised reservations.
If we're independent and self-governing, can we ignore or veto QMV proposals? Will we regain powers from the EU or lose more?
I can see why people prefer to remain in the EU, but the notion we won't see sovereignty continually sliced away, a little piece at a time, is at odds with reality.
Incidentally, your quote from Kahless, [upon whose return he was shown to be a feeble clone of the real thing...], only makes sense if you see either the EU or the Conservative Party as 'the Empire', rather than the UK.
An interesting and perceptive piece. Clearly elements of Leave have looked across the pond and decided to model their campaign on the nomination circus of Donald Trump.
On the contrary, they haven't, and (with certain caveats) they should have done so more.
TSE & OGH. The ICM tables for the two recent polls are now available on download. http://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/ (It has both polls in the tables, phone poll first)
Can we please have one thread dedicated to looking at these please?
The Leave side need a different response; rather than attacking the messengers, they should put forward a simple, understandable, soundbite-ready argument for why these distinguished people are mistaken. And never, ever, impugn their integrity - that is hugely counter-productive.
How about calling us LEAVERs "loons"? Is that not playing the man (or woman)?
In the past 24 hours us Remainers have been called traitors.
All you Leavers are doing is awaken the sleeping giant that are Remainers and fill them with a terrible resolve
r
My patience is being tested by some on the Leave side.
Don't be surprised if I reply in kind.
You yourself talked about destroying the Tory Party to win.
That's what actually convinced me in part to go campaigning for Remain.
EU
I didn't. I said the country was more important than the party and that if Cameron's career had to be sacrificed to achieve that then, regrettably, that must be. Politics is brutal.
And I did that after you welched to Remain, not before.
Stop looking for a scapegoat.
No, I moved after the report at work.
I moved to campaigning in part, after you wrote this on Saturday, prior to that, I was content to sit the campaign out. It was exactly this sort of comment I heard in the 90s.
I care far more about this country, and its prospects of being an independent self-governing nation again, than I do about the Conservative Party. To me, the latter is a means to an end: to advance the politics I feel will give us the brightest future. Just like most normal people.
If wrecking trust in David Cameron, and sacrificing his political career in the process, is what it takes for a majority of this country to Vote Leave, then that's what must be done.
As Emperor Kahless said "Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat."
We are an independent self governing nation. If we weren't, we wouldn't be having this referendum.
Rubbish. Don't insult my intelligence.
You were going to campaign for Remain anyway. You were just looking for an excuse to blame it on. A week before you were quoting someone else saying 'people like this make me want to go and campaign for Remain'.
And I didn't say wreck the Tory Party either - i said wrecking trust in him and sacrificing David Cameron's career. Just as he did to Clegg to win AV. Politics is a bloodsport.
And I said all of that after you welched - I think you have many positive aspects, and on some matters you do genuinely take others into your trust and confidence, but you are also highly manipulative when it suits you.
I respect people who play with a straight bat.
I will be sure, in future, to be careful how I engage with you and to do so on that basis.
How about calling us LEAVERs "loons"? Is that not playing the man (or woman)?
In the past 24 hours us Remainers have been called traitors.
All you Leavers are doing is awaken the sleeping giant that are Remainers and fill them with a terrible resolve
TSE - Christmas 2015 "my friends think Leave will win because I'm planning to vote Leave" TSE - February 2016 - "awful deal - firming up" TSE - 2 weeks ago "my heart says Leave" TSE - last weekend "you pb'ers have convinced me to campaign for Remain - thanks" TSE - today "eurosceptic loons", "us Remainers"
Well quite. He was "undecided" in the same way as Meeks and Nabavi were. At least Dr FoxInSocksEU had the intellectual honesty to wear his pro-EU credentials on his sleeve.
I said TSE is not to be trusted, please read this in full and draw your own conclusions:
The issue is not whether OGH was working for Betfair, it is whether TSE placed that bet at 4/6.
I'll give you a clue, he didn't, so we have to query his motive for saying that he did.
If you checked your vanilla messages, you'd see you were talking nonsense.
Must have been a different Nigel4England who wrote
'Thanks TSE, the issue seems to be that Mike was working for Betfair at the time"
I reread it and realized that is not the main issue, the main issue is whether you placed that bet at 4/6, and if not what were your motives in claiming that you did.
You're a lawyer aren't you, surely if what they claimed isn't true you would sue them?
How about calling us LEAVERs "loons"? Is that not playing the man (or woman)?
In the past 24 hours us Remainers have been called traitors.
All you Leavers are doing is awaken the sleeping giant that are Remainers and fill them with a terrible resolve
TSE - Christmas 2015 "my friends think Leave will win because I'm planning to vote Leave" TSE - February 2016 - "awful deal - firming up" TSE - 2 weeks ago "my heart says Leave" TSE - last weekend "you pb'ers have convinced me to campaign for Remain - thanks" TSE - today "eurosceptic loons", "us Remainers"
My patience is being tested by some on the Leave side.
Don't be surprised if I reply in kind.
You yourself talked about destroying the Tory Party to win.
That's what actually convinced me in part to go campaigning for Remain.
I know what happened the last time the Tory Party became obsessed with The EU
I didn't. I said the country was more important than the party and that if Cameron's career had to be sacrificed to achieve that then, regrettably, that must be. Politics is brutal.
And I did that after you welched to Remain, not before.
Stop looking for a scapegoat.
No, I moved after the report at work.
I moved to campaigning in part, after you wrote this on Saturday, prior to that, I was content to sit the campaign out. It was exactly this sort of comment I heard in the 90s.
I care far more about this country, and its prospects of being an independent self-governing nation again, than I do about the Conservative Party. To me, the latter is a means to an end: to advance the politics I feel will give us the brightest future. Just like most normal people.
If wrecking trust in David Cameron, and sacrificing his political career in the process, is what it takes for a majority of this country to Vote Leave, then that's what must be done.
As Emperor Kahless said "Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat."
We are an independent self governing nation. If we weren't, we wouldn't be having this referendum.
I have no desire to see the Conservative Party destroyed by this Referendum. But, nor does the risk of it worry me.
Mr. Eagles, the referendum is not merely about the present but the future, about which you've also raised reservations.
If we're independent and self-governing, can we ignore or veto QMV proposals? Will we regain powers from the EU or lose more?
I can see why people prefer to remain in the EU, but the notion we won't see sovereignty continually sliced away, a little piece at a time, is at odds with reality.
Incidentally, your quote from Kahless, [upon whose return he was shown to be a feeble clone of the real thing...], only makes sense if you see either the EU or the Conservative Party as 'the Empire', rather than the UK.
Whilst the current situation isn't perfect, the view articulated by Gove and Vote Leave is much worse. As contra, Richard Tyndall said he wasn't keen on Vote Leave's plans, but to him that was the better option than remaining, which again is a view I respect.
As for the future, we don't like what the EU is becoming or has become, we can hold another referendum to leave, or elect a party at GE with a manifesto commitment to take us out of the EU.
All the hallmarks of an independent, self governing nation.
After much consideration, I shall be voting Remain. This has come as something of a surprise to me, because I am a life-long Eurosceptic and continue to believe both that the EU project is ultimately doomed (in a nutshell, the national populaces will never cede the power nor the identity the EU needs to function effectively) and that the UK will have to leave sooner rather than later (whether or not we leave, there is no appetite for further ceding of power)). I heartily endorse many of the Leave campaign's criticisms of the EU; it is sclerotic, wasteful, over-bearing, undemocratic, unaccountable and often seems blind to the realities, challenges and opportunities of the modern world. I find the government's recent deal with the EU risible and the "project fear" campaign exaggerated and distasteful. In other circumstances, with a democratically-elected government bringing a well-developed proposal to leave to a referendum, and with a clearer sense of our place in the new European structure, supported by our global partners, I could well imagine voting in favour of Brexit.
But that is not where we are. There will never be a perfect time, but the difference between Britain gracefully withdrawing to allow our partners to integrate further, and Britain pulling the rip cord at a time when the whole project is in stasis, is significant. The Leave campaign lacks a credible plan for the aftermath, and if Remain are guilty of overstating the negative consequences (they are) then Leave are naively and fundamentally underestimating them. The price of abandonment will be high; the need to deter other departures compels it. We cannot pretend that the subsequent negotiation will be between wise men who respect each other's bargaining power; it will be between politicians accountable to the whims of their electorate. The prevailing sentiment of most Europeans will be against a sweetheart deal and the politicians of Germany, France, Italy, Spain et al will be bound by that sentiment. Our sovereignty is of little value if our outside status compels us to accept the same rules that bind us now in order to retain the benefits we all recognise. Free trade without free movement of people sounds wonderful in theory; but far harder to achieve in practice. And I fear for the EU too; without our influence it will take longer to embrace the reforms necessary for the EU to compete in a globalised world. We will be blamed for many of the EU's ills from this point.
So I shall vote remain, and look ahead to a future time when there emerges a leader of vision (here or elsewhere in the EU) who can see a way to helping the EU core states achieve their objectives while allowing those for whom the flame of nationhood burns bright to participate in a looser alliance. I suspect the states in the latter group will greatly outnumber the former, but that is for another time. Not for today.
It would be nice if everyone in the campaign could dial it down a notch, by the way.
TSE & OGH. The ICM tables for the two recent polls are now available on download. http://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/ (It has both polls in the tables, phone poll first)
Can we please have one thread dedicated to looking at these please?
TSE & OGH. The ICM tables for the two recent polls are now available on download. http://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/ (It has both polls in the tables, phone poll first)
Can we please have one thread dedicated to looking at these please?
Honest question for anyone out there: What does "triggering" mean? Is this some kind of "safe space" thing or am I missing the point totally?
I think the Tab might be poking fun, given their "endorsement" of the nutjob candidate...
The NUS does not represent students. The NUS does not lead students. The NUS does not understand students.
It’s a narrow organisation led for and by a narrow group of people. Obsessed with identity, aiming always to annihilate the words, ideas and spaces they disagree with, eager to grab and hold on to as much power as their pitiful organisation offers them.
Above all they encourage us to see ourselves as more weak and fragile than we actually are, to see ourselves more like them. It’s an organisation that has come to stand for fear, rather than hope.
And for that reason, there’s nobody better to lead it than Malia Bouattia.
How about calling us LEAVERs "loons"? Is that not playing the man (or woman)?
In the past 24 hours us Remainers have been called traitors.
All you Leavers are doing is awaken the sleeping giant that are Remainers and fill them with a terrible resolve
TSE - Christmas 2015 "my friends think Leave will win because I'm planning to vote Leave" TSE - February 2016 - "awful deal - firming up" TSE - 2 weeks ago "my heart says Leave" TSE - last weekend "you pb'ers have convinced me to campaign for Remain - thanks" TSE - today "eurosceptic loons", "us Remainers"
Well quite. He was "undecided" in the same way as Meeks and Nabavi were. At least Dr FoxInSocksEU had the intellectual honesty to wear his pro-EU credentials on his sleeve.
I said TSE is not to be trusted, please read this in full and draw your own conclusions:
The issue is not whether OGH was working for Betfair, it is whether TSE placed that bet at 4/6.
I'll give you a clue, he didn't, so we have to query his motive for saying that he did.
If you checked your vanilla messages, you'd see you were talking nonsense.
Must have been a different Nigel4England who wrote
'Thanks TSE, the issue seems to be that Mike was working for Betfair at the time"
I reread it and realized that is not the main issue, the main issue is whether you placed that bet at 4/6, and if not what were your motives in claiming that you did.
You're a lawyer aren't you, surely if what they claimed isn't true you would sue them?
Well just suffice it to say, some lawyers are involved, and considering their options, and I'll leave it that.
As I said the other day, if you wish to discuss this further, please contact Mike.
I am wondering who the hell voted for the new nutjob NUS president. As far as I can tell even left wingers are up in arms at her getting power.
The NUS is an ideal organisation for far-left takeover. It has an arcane structure, operating through various tiers of hierarchy and so making it difficult to hold anyone to account, and it attracts left-wing activists in numbers greatly disproportionate to their true frequency among the student population because it's a largely pointless organisation and only those interested in using it as a platform will go in for it - something which becomes reinforcing once one group has established itself there.
There is a simple remedy. People such as yourself can campaign for banks & other lenders to limit student loans to people who agree with the "free" market.
Mr. Owl, I think it's when you get upset by something. It's part of NewSpeak to try and control arguments and dictate social norms (as per 'safe space' and 'cultural appropriation').
Although posted by my mostly spoof Twitter (HeroOfHornska), a comment I made there is worth repeating, namely that the current youngest adult generation has never known a world without an internet.
They've grown up with the idea of reporting bad behaviour to moderators who make it stop, where people whose views you dislike can be blocked or turned off by clicking X. Social media echo chambers mean that dissent is not rebellion against The Parents, but a way of getting kicked out of a social group.
Some of the precious little darlings want to inflict this upon society as a whole.
Which is just one more reason freedom of speech must be fought for.
How about calling us LEAVERs "loons"? Is that not playing the man (or woman)?
In the past 24 hours us Remainers have been called traitors.
All you Leavers are doing is awaken the sleeping giant that are Remainers and fill them with a terrible resolve
TSE - Christmas 2015 "my friends think Leave will win because I'm planning to vote Leave" TSE - February 2016 - "awful deal - firming up" TSE - 2 weeks ago "my heart says Leave" TSE - last weekend "you pb'ers have convinced me to campaign for Remain - thanks" TSE - today "eurosceptic loons", "us Remainers"
My patience is being tested by some on the Leave side.
Don't be surprised if I reply in kind.
You yourself talked about destroying the Tory Party to win.
That's what actually convinced me in part to go campaigning for Remain.
I know what happened the last time the Tory Party became obsessed with The EU
I didn't. I said the country was more important than the party and that if Cameron's career had to be sacrificed to achieve that then, regrettably, that must be. Politics is brutal.
And I did that after you welched to Remain, not before.
Stop looking for a scapegoat.
No, I moved after the report at work.
I moved to campaigning in part, after you wrote this on Saturday, prior to that, I was content to sit the campaign out. It was exactly this sort of comment I heard in the 90s.
I care far more about this country, and its prospects of being an independent self-governing nation again, than I do about the Conservative Party. To me, the latter is a means to an end: to advance the politics I feel will give us the brightest future. Just like most normal people.
If wrecking trust in David Cameron, and sacrificing his political career in the process, is what it takes for a majority of this country to Vote Leave, then that's what must be done.
As Emperor Kahless said "Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat."
We are an independent self governing nation. If we weren't, we wouldn't be having this referendum.
I have no desire to see the Conservative Party destroyed by this Referendum. But, nor does the risk of it worry me.
Again that's fine, but don't expect some of us to sit idly by.
Mr. Eagles, the referendum is not merely about the present but the future, about which you've also raised reservations.
If we're independent and self-governing, can we ignore or veto QMV proposals? Will we regain powers from the EU or lose more?
I can see why people prefer to remain in the EU, but the notion we won't see sovereignty continually sliced away, a little piece at a time, is at odds with reality.
Incidentally, your quote from Kahless, [upon whose return he was shown to be a feeble clone of the real thing...], only makes sense if you see either the EU or the Conservative Party as 'the Empire', rather than the UK.
Whilst the current situation isn't perfect, the view articulated by Gove and Vote Leave is much worse. As contra, Richard Tyndall said he wasn't keen on Vote Leave's plans, but to him that was the better option than remaining, which again is a view I respect.
As for the future, we don't like what the EU is becoming or has become, we can hold another referendum to leave, or elect a party at GE with a manifesto commitment to take us out of the EU.
All the hallmarks of an independent, self governing nation.
An independent nation controls its own immigration. Natch.
Mr. Owl, I think it's when you get upset by something. It's part of NewSpeak to try and control arguments and dictate social norms (as per 'safe space' and 'cultural appropriation').
Although posted by my mostly spoof Twitter (HeroOfHornska), a comment I made there is worth repeating, namely that the current youngest adult generation has never known a world without an internet.
They've grown up with the idea of reporting bad behaviour to moderators who make it stop, where people whose views you dislike can be blocked or turned off by clicking X. Social media echo chambers mean that dissent is not rebellion against The Parents, but a way of getting kicked out of a social group.
Some of the precious little darlings want to inflict this upon society as a whole.
Which is just one more reason freedom of speech must be fought for.
Waiting for the perfect opportunity instead of seizing the once in a generation opportunity we have now could mean we don't get another vote for decades.
The price of departure and ructions caused by it to the economy will not be of no account, but they will be transient and permanently transfer the power of self-governance back to us.
The EU only integrates one way, and Brown's discarding of vetoes when he signed up to the Lisbon Treaty gives QMV more power than ever (and the eurozone has a critical mass for QMV. Even if every non-eurozone country opposes, the eurozone can impose its will throughout the EU).
TSE & OGH. The ICM tables for the two recent polls are now available on download. http://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/ (It has both polls in the tables, phone poll first)
Can we please have one thread dedicated to looking at these please?
How about calling us LEAVERs "loons"? Is that not playing the man (or woman)?
In the past 24 hours us Remainers have been called traitors.
All you Leavers are doing is awaken the sleeping giant that are Remainers and fill them with a terrible resolve
TSE - Christmas 2015 "my friends think Leave will win because I'm planning to vote Leave" TSE - February 2016 - "awful deal - firming up" TSE - 2 weeks ago "my heart says Leave" TSE - last weekend "you pb'ers have convinced me to campaign for Remain - thanks" TSE - today "eurosceptic loons", "us Remainers"
My patience is being tested by some on the Leave side.
Don't be surprised if I reply in kind.
You yourself talked about destroying the Tory Party to win.
That's what actually convinced me in part to go campaigning for Remain.
I know what happened the last time the Tory Party became obsessed with The EU
I didn't. I said the country was more important than the party and that if Cameron's career had to be sacrificed to achieve that then, regrettably, that must be. Politics is brutal.
And I did that after you welched to Remain, not before.
Stop looking for a scapegoat.
No, I moved after the report at work.
I moved to campaigning in part, after you wrote this on Saturday, prior to that, I was content to sit the campaign out. It was exactly this sort of comment I heard in the 90s.
I care far more about this country, and its prospects of being an independent self-governing nation again, than I do about the Conservative Party. To me, the latter is a means to an end: to advance the politics I feel will give us the brightest future. Just like most normal people.
If wrecking trust in David Cameron, and sacrificing his political career in the process, is what it takes for a majority of this country to Vote Leave, then that's what must be done.
As Emperor Kahless said "Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat."
We are an independent self governing nation. If we weren't, we wouldn't be having this referendum.
I have no desire to see the Conservative Party destroyed by this Referendum. But, nor does the risk of it worry me.
Nor do i, but David Cameron's career isn't my number one priority.
I know that greatly upsets some of my fellow Tories, and makes me a TPG in their eyes, and I guess I just have to accept that.
It comes across as really bitter. The comments' section also shows how unrepresentative (thankfully) The Guardian is. Quite a few Republicans there, when most people in the country support the monarchy. I'm finding CIF's constant 'goodies vs badies' view of the world, with no shades of gray to be irritating. They are just as bad, and if not worse than those in the DM comments' section.
How about calling us LEAVERs "loons"? Is that not playing the man (or woman)?
In the past 24 hours us Remainers have been called traitors.
All you Leavers are doing is awaken the sleeping giant that are Remainers and fill them with a terrible resolve
TSE - Christmas 2015 "my friends think Leave will win because I'm planning to vote Leave" TSE - February 2016 - "awful deal - firming up" TSE - 2 weeks ago "my heart says Leave" TSE - last weekend "you pb'ers have convinced me to campaign for Remain - thanks" TSE - today "eurosceptic loons", "us Remainers"
My patience is being tested by some on the Leave side.
Don't be surprised if I reply in kind.
You yourself talked about destroying the Tory Party to win.
That's what actually convinced me in part to go campaigning for Remain.
I know what happened the last time the Tory Party became obsessed with The EU
I didn't. I said the country was more important than the party and that if Cameron's career had to be sacrificed to achieve that then, regrettably, that must be. Politics is brutal.
And I did that after you welched to Remain, not before.
Stop looking for a scapegoat.
No, I moved after the report at work.
I moved to campaigning in part, after you wrote this on Saturday, prior to that, I was content to sit the campaign out. It was exactly this sort of comment I heard in the 90s.
I care far more about this country, and its prospects of being an independent self-governing nation again, than I do about the Conservative Party. To me, the latter is a means to an end: to advance the politics I feel will give us the brightest future. Just like most normal people.
If wrecking trust in David Cameron, and sacrificing his political career in the process, is what it takes for a majority of this country to Vote Leave, then that's what must be done.
As Emperor Kahless said "Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat."
We are an independent self governing nation. If we weren't, we wouldn't be having this referendum.
I have no desire to see the Conservative Party destroyed by this Referendum. But, nor does the risk of it worry me.
Again that's fine, but don't expect some of us to sit idly by.
Honest question for anyone out there: What does "triggering" mean? Is this some kind of "safe space" thing or am I missing the point totally?
I think the Tab might be poking fun, given their "endorsement" of the nutjob candidate...
The NUS does not represent students. The NUS does not lead students. The NUS does not understand students.
It’s a narrow organisation led for and by a narrow group of people. Obsessed with identity, aiming always to annihilate the words, ideas and spaces they disagree with, eager to grab and hold on to as much power as their pitiful organisation offers them.
Above all they encourage us to see ourselves as more weak and fragile than we actually are, to see ourselves more like them. It’s an organisation that has come to stand for fear, rather than hope.
And for that reason, there’s nobody better to lead it than Malia Bouattia.
How about calling us LEAVERs "loons"? Is that not playing the man (or woman)?
In the past 24 hours us Remainers have been called traitors.
All you Leavers are doing is awaken the sleeping giant that are Remainers and fill them with a terrible resolve
TSE - Christmas 2015 "my friends think Leave will win because I'm planning to vote Leave" TSE - February 2016 - "awful deal - firming up" TSE - 2 weeks ago "my heart says Leave" TSE - last weekend "you pb'ers have convinced me to campaign for Remain - thanks" TSE - today "eurosceptic loons", "us Remainers"
My patience is being tested by some on the Leave side.
Don't be surprised if I reply in kind.
You yourself talked about destroying the Tory Party to win.
That's what actually convinced me in part to go campaigning for Remain.
I know what happened the last time the Tory Party became obsessed with The EU
I didn't. I said the country was more important than the party and that if Cameron's career had to be sacrificed to achieve that then, regrettably, that must be. Politics is brutal.
And I did that after you welched to Remain, not before.
Stop looking for a scapegoat.
No, I moved after the report at work.
I moved to campaigning in part, after you wrote this on Saturday, prior to that, I was content to sit the campaign out. It was exactly this sort of comment I heard in the 90s.
I care far more about this country, and its prospects of being an independent self-governing nation again, than I do about the Conservative Party. To me, the latter is a means to an end: to advance the politics I feel will give us the brightest future. Just like most normal people.
If wrecking trust in David Cameron, and sacrificing his political career in the process, is what it takes for a majority of this country to Vote Leave, then that's what must be done.
As Emperor Kahless said "Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat."
We are an independent self governing nation. If we weren't, we wouldn't be having this referendum.
I have no desire to see the Conservative Party destroyed by this Referendum. But, nor does the risk of it worry me.
Again that's fine, but don't expect some of us to sit idly by.
OK for the country to be destroyed though?
No. Stop engaging in the Project Fear you profess to loathe
Comments
She also said this in the context of the increasing case load of the court:
“Various things are happening simultaneously.
“Over the years other competences have come within the field of EU law … by common agreement of EU states. It’s not that the EU grabbed new powers…
“[Now] we get cases which are about immigration, asylum and European arrest warrants … All of this is much closer to the core business of Strasbourg. EU law is engaged in a wider range of topics now because that’s what member states wanted. There are more cases where there may be fundamental rights aspects,”
Well, its a view. I just don't remember anyone ever asking us about this.
I make perceptive comments, you use insults, he plays the man, not the ball
Yes, there have been plenty of people proposing a single unified legal code for the EU. It has drifted onto the backburners in recent years but the Corpus Juris project was just that and was very prominent from the late 1990s into the mid 2000s
The Leave side need a different response; rather than attacking the messengers, they should put forward a simple, understandable, soundbite-ready argument for why these distinguished people are mistaken. And never, ever, impugn their integrity - that is hugely counter-productive.
http://order-order.com/2016/04/20/new-nus-president-backed-by-cage-believes-media-controlled-by-zionists/
Now, ask yourself? If you wouldn't want your daughter to marry Mr Tyndall, that must mean you distrust him. And if you distrust him, you must ignore whatever he says on the subject of Brexit.
"Ad hominem attacks are nothing new of course. But the speed with which Leavers have been reaching for them is noteworthy. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that this is a conscious strategy. This begs the question: why?"
I think this is the nature of believing you're facing forces much larger than your own. It gives you a siege mentality.
An interesting and perceptive article
Are you about to back Leave?
We have entrusted Western Society to these 'distinguished people' for decades in one form or another, and a right royal f8ck up they have made of it too.
But that's not how this place works...
The court upheld his claim that some of his treatment in captivity amounted to "inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment".
The right "represents a fundamental value in a democratic society" and also applied to "terrorists and killers," judge Helen Andenaes Sekulic said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36094575
Speaking of Scotland, certainty to vote numbers in EURef have drifted down to fairly standard UK levels in recent polls.
@JamieRoss7: The two most-photographed SNP politicians in the manifesto:
- Nicola Sturgeon with 31 photos
- Mhairi Black with 3 photos
@JamieRoss7: Trying to spot a photo without Sturgeon in the manifesto is a fun game for all of you playing along at home. Like an inverse Where's Wally.
And I did that after you welched to Remain, not before.
Stop looking for a scapegoat.
Did they have conscience bypasses or were they born utter shits ?
Norway's law and all but that's made me furious.
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/here-why-political-betting-ramped-up.html?m=1
The issue is not whether OGH was working for Betfair, it is whether TSE placed that bet at 4/6.
I'll give you a clue, he didn't, so we have to query his motive for saying that he did.
http://www.icmunlimited.com/polls/
(It has both polls in the tables, phone poll first)
Can we please have one thread dedicated to looking at these please?
Zhuge Liang wrote of five types of evil in decadence among national armed forces, the first of which is:
The first is the formation of factions that band together for character assassination, criticising and vilifying the wise and the good.
Both sides have disparate groups and much mud has been thrown in either direction. Alas.
Were it not so, perhaps the referendum discussions would be as civil as those about kings, volcanoes and F1.
As someone who lives in a two-room flat, I read about his 3-room detention with some wry amusement. But it's a good thing to have a legal system that considers absolutely anyone's case on its merits.
(Reason is that my first quick glance at ICM phone polling data has 18-34 weighted as voting in higher total numbers compared to 65+ age range.)
I moved to campaigning in part, after you wrote this on Saturday, prior to that, I was content to sit the campaign out. It was exactly this sort of comment I heard in the 90s.
I care far more about this country, and its prospects of being an independent self-governing nation again, than I do about the Conservative Party. To me, the latter is a means to an end: to advance the politics I feel will give us the brightest future. Just like most normal people.
If wrecking trust in David Cameron, and sacrificing his political career in the process, is what it takes for a majority of this country to Vote Leave, then that's what must be done.
As Emperor Kahless said "Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat."
We are an independent self governing nation. If we weren't, we wouldn't be having this referendum.
http://thetab.com/2016/04/20/malia-bouattia-elected-nus-president-face-controversy-87252
Must have been a different Nigel4England who wrote
'Thanks TSE, the issue seems to be that Mike was working for Betfair at the time"
If we're independent and self-governing, can we ignore or veto QMV proposals? Will we regain powers from the EU or lose more?
I can see why people prefer to remain in the EU, but the notion we won't see sovereignty continually sliced away, a little piece at a time, is at odds with reality.
Incidentally, your quote from Kahless, [upon whose return he was shown to be a feeble clone of the real thing...], only makes sense if you see either the EU or the Conservative Party as 'the Empire', rather than the UK.
10/10 to vote (64% phone)....52.6 Remain/47.4 Leave.......Sample 297 (right) / 296 (left)
10/10 to vote (63% web)........48.6 Remain / 51.4 Leave....sample 854 (right) / 756 (left)
At the GE:
Right (Con/UKIP) 50.6%
Left (Lab/Lib/Grn) 43.1%
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTv7UoK8oJY
You were going to campaign for Remain anyway. You were just looking for an excuse to blame it on. A week before you were quoting someone else saying 'people like this make me want to go and campaign for Remain'.
And I didn't say wreck the Tory Party either - i said wrecking trust in him and sacrificing David Cameron's career. Just as he did to Clegg to win AV. Politics is a bloodsport.
And I said all of that after you welched - I think you have many positive aspects, and on some matters you do genuinely take others into your trust and confidence, but you are also highly manipulative when it suits you.
I respect people who play with a straight bat.
I will be sure, in future, to be careful how I engage with you and to do so on that basis.
You're a lawyer aren't you, surely if what they claimed isn't true you would sue them?
As for the future, we don't like what the EU is becoming or has become, we can hold another referendum to leave, or elect a party at GE with a manifesto commitment to take us out of the EU.
All the hallmarks of an independent, self governing nation.
But that is not where we are. There will never be a perfect time, but the difference between Britain gracefully withdrawing to allow our partners to integrate further, and Britain pulling the rip cord at a time when the whole project is in stasis, is significant. The Leave campaign lacks a credible plan for the aftermath, and if Remain are guilty of overstating the negative consequences (they are) then Leave are naively and fundamentally underestimating them. The price of abandonment will be high; the need to deter other departures compels it. We cannot pretend that the subsequent negotiation will be between wise men who respect each other's bargaining power; it will be between politicians accountable to the whims of their electorate. The prevailing sentiment of most Europeans will be against a sweetheart deal and the politicians of Germany, France, Italy, Spain et al will be bound by that sentiment. Our sovereignty is of little value if our outside status compels us to accept the same rules that bind us now in order to retain the benefits we all recognise. Free trade without free movement of people sounds wonderful in theory; but far harder to achieve in practice. And I fear for the EU too; without our influence it will take longer to embrace the reforms necessary for the EU to compete in a globalised world. We will be blamed for many of the EU's ills from this point.
So I shall vote remain, and look ahead to a future time when there emerges a leader of vision (here or elsewhere in the EU) who can see a way to helping the EU core states achieve their objectives while allowing those for whom the flame of nationhood burns bright to participate in a looser alliance. I suspect the states in the latter group will greatly outnumber the former, but that is for another time. Not for today.
It would be nice if everyone in the campaign could dial it down a notch, by the way.
Also for the purposes of the exercise am I assuming Left/Remain; Right/Leave correlation ?
As I said the other day, if you wish to discuss this further, please contact Mike.
Staten dømmes også til å betale Behring Breiviks sakskostnader på 330.937,50 kroner.
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/Oslo-tingrett-Soningsregimet-innebarerenumenneskelig-behandling-av-Behring-Breivik-8436665.html
Added together, they are more than the economy...
Although posted by my mostly spoof Twitter (HeroOfHornska), a comment I made there is worth repeating, namely that the current youngest adult generation has never known a world without an internet.
They've grown up with the idea of reporting bad behaviour to moderators who make it stop, where people whose views you dislike can be blocked or turned off by clicking X. Social media echo chambers mean that dissent is not rebellion against The Parents, but a way of getting kicked out of a social group.
Some of the precious little darlings want to inflict this upon society as a whole.
Which is just one more reason freedom of speech must be fought for.
(Incidentally, those after a politically incorrect comedy should buy my book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Adventures-Edric-Hero-Hornska-Book-ebook/dp/B01DOSP9ZK/ )
http://order-order.com/2016/04/20/bus-ted-tories-admit-dodgy-election-expenses/
Maybe they had been hypnotised, and every time they heard screams they were triggered to do something stupid.
Hmm. Perhaps they didn't need to be hypnotised.
Better not let them get near our shop floor then. Might be a bit much for them all. Bless.
Waiting for the perfect opportunity instead of seizing the once in a generation opportunity we have now could mean we don't get another vote for decades.
The price of departure and ructions caused by it to the economy will not be of no account, but they will be transient and permanently transfer the power of self-governance back to us.
The EU only integrates one way, and Brown's discarding of vetoes when he signed up to the Lisbon Treaty gives QMV more power than ever (and the eurozone has a critical mass for QMV. Even if every non-eurozone country opposes, the eurozone can impose its will throughout the EU).
I know that greatly upsets some of my fellow Tories, and makes me a TPG in their eyes, and I guess I just have to accept that.
Taxpayers are funding this piece of filth and his leeching lawyers, just one of the reasons he should have been executed.
Edited extra bit: Pavlov's, rather.
They are not different options as it is unprompted. The issue is how they choose to collate them afterwards.
It comes across as really bitter. The comments' section also shows how unrepresentative (thankfully) The Guardian is. Quite a few Republicans there, when most people in the country support the monarchy. I'm finding CIF's constant 'goodies vs badies' view of the world, with no shades of gray to be irritating. They are just as bad, and if not worse than those in the DM comments' section.
More information on her here - http://hurryupharry.org/2016/04/14/the-queen-of-the-israel-haters-2/ and here - http://hurryupharry.org/2016/04/18/bouattia-in-her-own-words/