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Will Keir Starmer face leadership challenge before the next general election? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 17 in General
imageWill Keir Starmer face leadership challenge before the next general election? – politicalbetting.com

Smarkets have this market up on whether Sir Keir Starmer will face a leadership challenge before the next general election and I’m not sure what to make of this market.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,837
    You promised threads plural
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,837
    I feel cheated.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,837
    There won't be a challenge
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,837
    5th
  • IshmaelZ said:

    You promised threads plural

    IshmaelZ said:

    I feel cheated.

    I'd like to blame autocorrect....
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,837
    VI and I like james
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,837
    VI and I like james (sorry, recount)
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,835
    9th maybe.

    FPT:
    MattW said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:


    Taxing people's homes doesn't really kick the ladder back down though, it's just the politics of envy. Targeting multiple property owners and forcing them to sell will increase the supply of property for owner occupiers and push prices down.

    It will also reduce the supply of rented accommodation and push prices for that up. Since, in general, people who prefer rented accommodation are poorer and/or younger, that would be another measure punishing lower-income individuals. If you're on £25,000/year, the fact that there are some more homes available to buy for £240,000 doesn't compensate for fewer homes being available for rent at £1,000/month.

    We debated this before and I know you dislike buy-to-let landlords, but in the absence of generally available council housing, it seems to me that they fill a legitimate market need.
    Increasing owner occupation reduces rental demand. Though I also think the state needs a huge housebuilding programme by councils. A £50bn housebuilding fund would do it, building houses for social rent across the whole nation with applications limited to people who have lived in the area on private rent for 5+ years.

    Also, I don't just dislike private landlords, I think they are parasites leeching off the lifeblood of young people. Putting them all out of business would be priority one if I was dictator for a day.
    No. It doesn't.

    We've done this before.

    The rental sector is occupied far more densely than the OO sector. See the English Housing Survey, every year.

    So you decant the same number of people into a much smaller number of houses. Which leaves you with far more intense demand in the rump rental sector.

    And you are damaging the poorest sectors of society, who cannot get mortgages. Do you think that all tenants want to live in socially rented houses? And do you think it is acceptable to 'persuade' them to do so?

    How are you going to get all those social houses past the Nimby lobby and through planning?
    Bugger :smile: Much *larger* number of houses.

    You also lose all the free housing for homeless people currently provided by force by LLs to local Councils, by the mechanism of Councils forcing people to stay in the house for which they aren't paying rent for 6 to 12 months, which saves Council resources but inflates the debts of those individuals and leaves them with unpaid CCJs.

    Now I must go out.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,837
    No, as you were.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,524
    There may be a challenge. From the Left, I reckon, if at all. But who will be their standard bearer? Can't see anyone credible. So it will fail humiliatingly.
    Any challenge from the Right/Centre is pointless before SKS is seen to have failed at a GE.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 3,007
    No. Next thread, please?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,283
    QTWTAIN.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,524
    edited October 17
    Re quirk. Far too many thought UKIP was composed solely of Tories on holiday. It wasn't.
    Would be interested to see where YouGov are picking up these Green voters as coming from.
    I suspect most are young, and have a lower propensity to turn out at all. Very few will be Tories.
    @LostPassword had summat to say about this ISTR.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,550
    The strange thing about YouGov and their seeming bias, for want of a better word, against Labour is that they are the only pollster to give them a lead since January. What the blazes is that all about?
  • isamisam Posts: 38,550
    Re the Corbyn quote, 2010 was a disaster because Labour lost power, and 2017 was a victory of sorts for them because the Tories lost their majority
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,996
    isam said:

    The strange thing about YouGov and their seeming bias, for want of a better word, against Labour is that they are the only pollster to give them a lead since January. What the blazes is that all about?

    Random noise.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,238
    That Private Eye piece is very naughty.

    I'm looking towards Chesterfield expecting to see a vast explosion as @bigjohnowls spontaneously combusts.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,550
    10% spreads on those markets! Would be nice to be the bloke making them
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,238
    edited October 17
    On topic, Labour haven't actually forced a failed leader out since 1935. That's also the last time they removed a leader without letting them fight an election.* They even left Callaghan, Foot an Attlee long past his best and Corbyn in place.

    The odds of them changing that rule for Starmer must be about 1 in 100. Apart from anything else, where would a challenger come from?

    *John Smith being removed by powers higher than Labour.
  • ydoethur said:

    On topic, Labour haven't actually forced a failed leader out since 1935. That's also the last time they removed a leader without letting them fight an election.* They even left Callaghan, Foot an Attlee long past his best and Corbyn in place.

    *John Smith being removed by powers higher than Labour.

    Doesn't the ousting of Blair count?

    Tom Watson again.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 17,460
    Like others I don't think so, assuming they define "challenge" as successfully surmounting the MP threshold? If it's merely "someone says I should be leader, not him", then BJO would be happy to oblige.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 1,274
    There's no credible alternative to Keir at the moment.

    He will stay in place, lose with dignity in 2023 and then LAB really need to find someone - who? - can credibly lead them to GE win 2028.

    Hint: it's not Angela 😀
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,524
    Sitting on a packed train to Newcastle. No windows open. 1 person wearing a mask. A small handful coughing frequently and repeatedly all over the carriage.
    It is as if Covid died out, or never happened at all.
  • There is no evidence that anyone else would be doing better than Starmer right now and for that reason he maintains my support.

    The Tories seem intent on losing on all manner of fronts, I believe in a year Starmer and Labour will be ahead - and they will register a lead before the end of this year too.
  • isam said:

    The strange thing about YouGov and their seeming bias, for want of a better word, against Labour is that they are the only pollster to give them a lead since January. What the blazes is that all about?

    Assuming all things being equal, one out of twenty polls will be an outlier, YouGov are the most frequent pollster these days so we're more likely to see an outlier more often from them than say Ipsos MORI.

    IIRC that Labour lead poll was impacted by a higher than normal Tory vote moving over to DK.
  • Like others I don't think so, assuming they define "challenge" as successfully surmounting the MP threshold? If it's merely "someone says I should be leader, not him", then BJO would be happy to oblige.

    Nick, the terms are This market will be settled for yes if any candidate is nominated by at least 20% of Labour MPs to challenge Keir Starmer for the Labour Party leadership before the next UK general election.

    If Keir Starmer stands down as leader of the Labour Party before the next election and without any candidate being nominated by at least 20% of Labour MPs to challenge him for the leadership, this market will be void.


    I'll update the thread header pic with one that also contains the rules.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,238

    ydoethur said:

    On topic, Labour haven't actually forced a failed leader out since 1935. That's also the last time they removed a leader without letting them fight an election.* They even left Callaghan, Foot an Attlee long past his best and Corbyn in place.

    *John Smith being removed by powers higher than Labour.

    Doesn't the ousting of Blair count?

    Tom Watson again.
    I didn't like the man but you couldn't possibly describe him as a failed leader.

    Moreover, he was at most removed slightly earlier than he wanted to go.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 15,524

    isam said:

    The strange thing about YouGov and their seeming bias, for want of a better word, against Labour is that they are the only pollster to give them a lead since January. What the blazes is that all about?

    Assuming all things being equal, one out of twenty polls will be an outlier, YouGov are the most frequent pollster these days so we're more likely to see an outlier more often from them than say Ipsos MORI.

    IIRC that Labour lead poll was impacted by a higher than normal Tory vote moving over to DK.
    Wasn't it taken just after the news was all about NI rises? Would explain the Tory-DK.
    There were plenty on here, but they mostly drifted back soon enough.
  • dixiedean said:

    isam said:

    The strange thing about YouGov and their seeming bias, for want of a better word, against Labour is that they are the only pollster to give them a lead since January. What the blazes is that all about?

    Assuming all things being equal, one out of twenty polls will be an outlier, YouGov are the most frequent pollster these days so we're more likely to see an outlier more often from them than say Ipsos MORI.

    IIRC that Labour lead poll was impacted by a higher than normal Tory vote moving over to DK.
    Wasn't it taken just after the news was all about NI rises? Would explain the Tory-DK.
    There were plenty on here, but they mostly drifted back soon enough.
    Yup.
  • Labour really need PR, and to accept that they can't hold together in a single party.

    They'd also have to accept that they'll probably be a smaller party than the Tories, but they'd have much more chance of keeping them out of power - and providing the PM in a coalition

    If Starmer were leading a Labour party that didn't need the Corbynites, I think this wouldn't even be a discussion.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 16,891
    dixiedean said:

    Sitting on a packed train to Newcastle. No windows open. 1 person wearing a mask. A small handful coughing frequently and repeatedly all over the carriage.
    It is as if Covid died out, or never happened at all.

    I’m on a packed bus into the toon and ditto
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,561
    QTWAIN.

    He should, because he's crap.

    He won't, because the Labour Party don't get rid of crap leaders.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 20,727
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    On topic, Labour haven't actually forced a failed leader out since 1935. That's also the last time they removed a leader without letting them fight an election.* They even left Callaghan, Foot an Attlee long past his best and Corbyn in place.

    *John Smith being removed by powers higher than Labour.

    Doesn't the ousting of Blair count?

    Tom Watson again.
    I didn't like the man but you couldn't possibly describe him as a failed leader.

    Moreover, he was at most removed slightly earlier than he wanted to go.
    519 days earlier, to be precise. :)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,025
    Fpt
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

  • isamisam Posts: 38,550
    edited October 17
    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    They are coming here from farther parts of the world, via the French!
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,477

    There is no evidence that anyone else would be doing better than Starmer right now and for that reason he maintains my support.

    For the red team this makes sense. It’s hard to see what is to be gained by a bitter leadership contest and there is no one out there who would be any better. Even Rayner.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,238
    Taz said:

    There is no evidence that anyone else would be doing better than Starmer right now and for that reason he maintains my support.

    For the red team this makes sense. It’s hard to see what is to be gained by a bitter leadership contest and there is no one out there who would be any better. Even Rayner.
    And if there were, it is very much in their interests to let him do the heavy lifting on the controversial and unpopular changes Labour need to make, then they could come in fresh and untainted.

    Would Blair have been as successful but for Kinnock's groundwork and the realisation that under Smith the party was drifting? No.

    That doesn't mean Starmer will win the next election (Indeed it's pretty well certain he won't) but he needs to keep Labour in the game for the next one.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,477
    dixiedean said:

    Sitting on a packed train to Newcastle. No windows open. 1 person wearing a mask. A small handful coughing frequently and repeatedly all over the carriage.
    It is as if Covid died out, or never happened at all.

    We were in the toon yesterday and caught the bus through and The toon was like Covid never happened. Pubs and bars were busy no masks being worn. People are getting in with their,lives.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,287
    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    Well, as a certain poster here pointed out with approval, a certain German tennis professional stated that the problem with France *is* the French.....

    So the cosmopolitan thing to do is to hate the French. Apparently.

    The real issue is integration - which then runs slap bank into the racism of The Exotic. Other cultures are not to be criticised because they are Other and hence must be Protected.

    So various shitheads get to justify their shitty behaviour by "it's my culture".
  • AslanAslan Posts: 734
    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    Yes, it should be. Skilled Hong Kongers, Australians, Japanese, Indians etc should all have it easier to come. That doesn't mean more from Somalia.

    To be honest it's hard to think of a less successful group coming to Western society. Rock bottom academic performance, unemployment rates often north of 40%, very low average earnings and a much higher prevalence of religious extremism.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,370
    Mr. Malmesbury, got to be 'culturally sensitive'.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,025
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    They are coming here from farther parts of the world, via the French!
    So that's mission accomplished.

    People on here are forever saying how they are not against immigration just that it's unfair it's restricted to the EU.

    So rejoice at the Somalis here. Right?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,561

    MattW said:

    9th maybe.

    FPT:

    MattW said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:


    Taxing people's homes doesn't really kick the ladder back down though, it's just the politics of envy. Targeting multiple property owners and forcing them to sell will increase the supply of property for owner occupiers and push prices down.

    It will also reduce the supply of rented accommodation and push prices for that up. Since, in general, people who prefer rented accommodation are poorer and/or younger, that would be another measure punishing lower-income individuals. If you're on £25,000/year, the fact that there are some more homes available to buy for £240,000 doesn't compensate for fewer homes being available for rent at £1,000/month.

    We debated this before and I know you dislike buy-to-let landlords, but in the absence of generally available council housing, it seems to me that they fill a legitimate market need.
    Increasing owner occupation reduces rental demand. Though I also think the state needs a huge housebuilding programme by councils. A £50bn housebuilding fund would do it, building houses for social rent across the whole nation with applications limited to people who have lived in the area on private rent for 5+ years.

    Also, I don't just dislike private landlords, I think they are parasites leeching off the lifeblood of young people. Putting them all out of business would be priority one if I was dictator for a day.
    No. It doesn't.

    We've done this before.

    The rental sector is occupied far more densely than the OO sector. See the English Housing Survey, every year.

    So you decant the same number of people into a much smaller number of houses. Which leaves you with far more intense demand in the rump rental sector.

    And you are damaging the poorest sectors of society, who cannot get mortgages. Do you think that all tenants want to live in socially rented houses? And do you think it is acceptable to 'persuade' them to do so?

    How are you going to get all those social houses past the Nimby lobby and through planning?
    Bugger :smile: Much *larger* number of houses.

    You also lose all the free housing for homeless people currently provided by force by LLs to local Councils, by the mechanism of Councils forcing people to stay in the house for which they aren't paying rent for 6 to 12 months, which saves Council resources but inflates the debts of those individuals and leaves them with unpaid CCJs.

    Now I must go out.
    The only way to reduce the housing crisis is to increase the number of homes.

    This can mean

    1) Building lots of homes where the people want them
    2) moving big chunks of the population to where more homes are

    By itself, 2) can't deal with the problem.

    What will not fix the housing problem is shuffling housing between the rental and owned sectors.

    Fundamentally, there is a housing shortage - of all kinds.
    Absolutely agreed.

    However there's a flaw in the logic though that just because private rental is denser that automatically you need more houses if families who rents a home buy a home instead.

    A big reason why the Owner Occupied sector has less dense housing than private rental is the generation divide. People who bought a 2 or 3 or more bedrooms house decades ago still living there, despite being now retired and no kids so no 'requirement' for bedrooms 2 and 3. Most retired couples only 'need' 1 bedroom but don't downsize.

    Families renting a 2 or 3 plus bedroom house now because they have children who then go on to buy a house with the same number of bedrooms don't affect the quantity of houses required whatsoever.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,477
    ydoethur said:

    Taz said:

    There is no evidence that anyone else would be doing better than Starmer right now and for that reason he maintains my support.

    For the red team this makes sense. It’s hard to see what is to be gained by a bitter leadership contest and there is no one out there who would be any better. Even Rayner.
    And if there were, it is very much in their interests to let him do the heavy lifting on the controversial and unpopular changes Labour need to make, then they could come in fresh and untainted.

    Would Blair have been as successful but for Kinnock's groundwork and the realisation that under Smith the party was drifting? No.

    That doesn't mean Starmer will win the next election (Indeed it's pretty well certain he won't) but he needs to keep Labour in the game for the next one.
    Yes, this all makes sense. He is the Kinnock figure who needs to make labour electable and a force to be reckoned with. At the moment he’s not doing that but he lacks the ruthless streak Blair demonstrated on the recent documentary series.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,561
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    They are coming here from farther parts of the world, via the French!
    So that's mission accomplished.

    People on here are forever saying how they are not against immigration just that it's unfair it's restricted to the EU.

    So rejoice at the Somalis here. Right?
    If they meet the points-based requirements then absolutely, no reason they shouldn't come.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090
    Aslan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    Yes, it should be. Skilled Hong Kongers, Australians, Japanese, Indians etc should all have it easier to come. That doesn't mean more from Somalia.

    To be honest it's hard to think of a less successful group coming to Western society. Rock bottom academic performance, unemployment rates often north of 40%, very low average earnings and a much higher prevalence of religious extremism.

    Major involvement in crime, as well. Just last week a friend of mine was attacked by a Somalian in Belsize Park. Police identified him. My friend was lucky to escape a serious stabbing

    One can feel very sorry for the Somalian people: a poor war torn country traumatised by decades of violence. At the same time one can feel that importing more of them is adding calamity to catastrophe
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,025
    edited October 17

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    They are coming here from farther parts of the world, via the French!
    So that's mission accomplished.

    People on here are forever saying how they are not against immigration just that it's unfair it's restricted to the EU.

    So rejoice at the Somalis here. Right?
    If they meet the points-based requirements then absolutely, no reason they shouldn't come.
    It's curious why people on here now seem to want to restrict immigration based upon country of origin.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,561

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    Well, as a certain poster here pointed out with approval, a certain German tennis professional stated that the problem with France *is* the French.....

    So the cosmopolitan thing to do is to hate the French. Apparently.

    The real issue is integration - which then runs slap bank into the racism of The Exotic. Other cultures are not to be criticised because they are Other and hence must be Protected.

    So various shitheads get to justify their shitty behaviour by "it's my culture".
    The ugly truth is that some cultures are subjectively better than others.

    If your culture involves treating women like shit, or treating gays like shit, or not working, or . . . then we should be able to stand up proudly and say that we don't respect that culture.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,561
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    They are coming here from farther parts of the world, via the French!
    So that's mission accomplished.

    People on here are forever saying how they are not against immigration just that it's unfair it's restricted to the EU.

    So rejoice at the Somalis here. Right?
    If they meet the points-based requirements then absolutely, no reason they shouldn't come.
    It's curious why people on here now seem to want to restrict immigration based upon country of origin.
    Not that curious, some people here always have.

    I don't. I want to treat people as individuals. If a highly-skilled Somalian meets our entry requirements then they shouldn't be excluded just because the rest of the nation is dreadful.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,030
    Finally.....


    Labour has written to health secretary Sajid Javid to express concern over the current state of England’s Covid vaccination programme and call upon the government “to go further” in accelerating the rollout of doses among children, young people and pregnant women.

    In a letter shared with The Independent, Jon Ashworth, the shadow health secretary, said “this is no time for ministers to be complacent” over what has been achieved and warned “it is clear that the job of protecting the public is not yet done”, with infection rates once again returning to the peak seen at the height of the second wave.


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/covid-vaccine-flu-latest-uk-b1939302.html?utm_content=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Main&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1634477050
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,227

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    Well, as a certain poster here pointed out with approval, a certain German tennis professional stated that the problem with France *is* the French.....

    So the cosmopolitan thing to do is to hate the French. Apparently.

    The real issue is integration - which then runs slap bank into the racism of The Exotic. Other cultures are not to be criticised because they are Other and hence must be Protected.

    So various shitheads get to justify their shitty behaviour by "it's my culture".
    The ugly truth is that some cultures are subjectively better than others.

    If your culture involves treating women like shit, or treating gays like shit, or not working, or . . . then we should be able to stand up proudly and say that we don't respect that culture.
    An issue is that culture and religion can be confused/joined to the advantage of some. On occasion, people excuse behaviour (e.g. FGM) on 'religious' grounds, when in reality it is cultural.
  • Dan Hodges is calling for us to tone down the debate when he has commented a number of times about killing Jeremy Corbyn.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 52,030
    edited October 17
    FPT:
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Comparing “UK” to Europe and calling for measures europe have but ignoring countries in rUK wrt to England is telling.

    https://twitter.com/ThatRyanChap/status/1449636362995523590?s=20

    Yes Tories using bent statistics is very telling.
    It's not "Tories" using bent statistics, it's iSage who say "look at how Europe has mask mandates and better outcomes than "England" "- then quote UK numbers which include Scotland and Wales, and which have similar mask mandates to those proposed by iSage, yet worse outcomes than England.....
    As I said fake numbers, Scotland has been behind England all through the pandemic overall, even if still crap. Picking the odd day or week as usual to try and deflect.
    Which government are you referring to? I note that Covid-19 mortality rate in Scotland is more than twice that in England.



    https://twitter.com/danc00ks0n/status/1449349381208133638?s=20
    As I said you select one or two weeks out of 2 years. Typical Tory. lying by statistics Show me the death rate from Covid for both countries over the pandemic , not the one week that suits. @CarlottaVance
    The 10th of May to the 17th October is "one or two weeks"?

    The question raised by iSage is what is being done now to contain the spread of COVID - not what was (not) done 18 months ago.

    The point is that part of the UK that s largely following their prescription is sadly doing worse than part of it that's not.
  • Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,561

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    Well, as a certain poster here pointed out with approval, a certain German tennis professional stated that the problem with France *is* the French.....

    So the cosmopolitan thing to do is to hate the French. Apparently.

    The real issue is integration - which then runs slap bank into the racism of The Exotic. Other cultures are not to be criticised because they are Other and hence must be Protected.

    So various shitheads get to justify their shitty behaviour by "it's my culture".
    The ugly truth is that some cultures are subjectively better than others.

    If your culture involves treating women like shit, or treating gays like shit, or not working, or . . . then we should be able to stand up proudly and say that we don't respect that culture.
    An issue is that culture and religion can be confused/joined to the advantage of some. On occasion, people excuse behaviour (e.g. FGM) on 'religious' grounds, when in reality it is cultural.
    It shouldn't make a difference. If a religion is disgraceful then we should say so. If a culture is disgraceful then we should say so.

    People are too precious about standing up to religions.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 13,090

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    Yes they will. I would

    Fundamentalist Mormons believe in polygamy and a man’s right to take underage girls as wives. That stems directly from their perverted form of Christianity and is condemned as such
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,287

    Mr. Malmesbury, got to be 'culturally sensitive'.

    My religion requires personal ownership of the most powerful weapons in the world. As evidence of our peacefulness.

    Why is my right to 120Kg of Oralloy denied?

    Will no one respect my culture?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,370
    Mr. Battery, perhaps because in a Muslim-majority country Islam always forms at least part of the law code (Turkey used to be quite the exception but is shifting away from secularism), and in minority countries like the UK a de facto blasphemy law is increasingly in effect due to the threatening ways of fundamentalist mobs and cowardice of the political and media class?

    You can mock or question Christianity without the same level of concern that a psycho will cut your head off.

    The lack of a reformation and/or the basically fundamentalist nature of Islam makes it a different beast.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,561

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    Both are an issue.

    Plenty of countries have done vile crap in the name of Christianity. Christianity is pretty evil when its dogmatically enforced in my view, the good thing is that people are quite relaxed now at turning a blind eye to most of the worst Christian rules post-Reformation. Islam unfortunately has never been through a Reformation in the same way.

    Anyone who is dogmatically Christian, or Muslim etc ... it tends to be dangerous.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,519
    The 'No' is value on that Starmer market imo. It should be shorter.
  • pingping Posts: 1,429

    Mr. Malmesbury, got to be 'culturally sensitive'.

    My religion requires personal ownership of the most powerful weapons in the world. As evidence of our peacefulness.

    Why is my right to 120Kg of Oralloy denied?

    Will no one respect my culture?
    Don’t know what Oralloy is. Will googling it put me on prevent’s books?
  • isamisam Posts: 38,550
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    They are coming here from farther parts of the world, via the French!
    So that's mission accomplished.

    People on here are forever saying how they are not against immigration just that it's unfair it's restricted to the EU.

    So rejoice at the Somalis here. Right?
    Yeah!!!!! Bring em on.

    Thanks for changing my mind, it is a beautiful thing
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 20,287

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    If the country tried to implement it as part of a back-to-the-past fundamentalist Christianity, they would.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 734

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    Both are an issue.

    Plenty of countries have done vile crap in the name of Christianity. Christianity is pretty evil when its dogmatically enforced in my view, the good thing is that people are quite relaxed now at turning a blind eye to most of the worst Christian rules post-Reformation. Islam unfortunately has never been through a Reformation in the same way.

    Anyone who is dogmatically Christian, or Muslim etc ... it tends to be dangerous.
    The Protestant sects in Christianity were no better than the pre-Reformation Catholics. What moderated Christianity was the Enlightenment, not the Reformation.

    However I would say the fundamentals of Christianity are pretty good, if you truly accept Jesus's reinterpretation of the Old Testament law. The core of his message is forgiveness, pacifism and inclusion, with a bit of secularism thrown in too. You can't say anything like that about Mohammed.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 734

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    The Bible does NOT say that if you actually read the whole thing. Jesus explicitly says "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,523

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    Both are an issue.

    Plenty of countries have done vile crap in the name of Christianity. Christianity is pretty evil when its dogmatically enforced in my view, the good thing is that people are quite relaxed now at turning a blind eye to most of the worst Christian rules post-Reformation. Islam unfortunately has never been through a Reformation in the same way.

    Anyone who is dogmatically Christian, or Muslim etc ... it tends to be dangerous.
    Over half the global population are Christian or Muslim
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,871
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    They are coming here from farther parts of the world, via the French!
    So that's mission accomplished.

    People on here are forever saying how they are not against immigration just that it's unfair it's restricted to the EU.

    So rejoice at the Somalis here. Right?
    Yeah!!!!! Bring em on.

    Thanks for changing my mind, it is a beautiful thing
    Especially when you consider that almost all of the Somalians in the UK are here under free movement rules from other European countries. A points based immigration system would have excluded almost all of them from migrating to the UK.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,523

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    There are some verses in the Old Testament which reflect the culture of the time and Jews and Muslims share much of the Old Testament with Christians.

    However there is nothing in the New Testament about putting people to death and the New Testament and the belief that Jesus is the Messiah is unique to Christianity
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,611
    HYUFD said:

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    There are some verses in the Old Testament which reflect the culture of the time and Jews and Muslims share much of the Old Testament with Christians.

    However there is nothing in the New Testament about putting people to death and the New Testament and the belief that Jesus is the Messiah is unique to Christianity
    Er, rather a lot of the NT is about putting someone to death. JC himself, the woman taken in adultery, the two thieves ...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 11,996
    HYUFD said:

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    There are some verses in the Old Testament which reflect the culture of the time and Jews and Muslims share much of the Old Testament with Christians.

    However there is nothing in the New Testament about putting people to death and the New Testament and the belief that Jesus is the Messiah is unique to Christianity
    He is just a very naughty boy.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,611
    Aslan said:

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    The Bible does NOT say that if you actually read the whole thing. Jesus explicitly says "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
    But those two verses are entirely compatible, if you find someone without sin.

    Which is of course impossible under the doctrine of the fall and original sin. Though not being a theologian, I'm not sure if that came along later, so to speak.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,025
    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    They are coming here from farther parts of the world, via the French!
    So that's mission accomplished.

    People on here are forever saying how they are not against immigration just that it's unfair it's restricted to the EU.

    So rejoice at the Somalis here. Right?
    Yeah!!!!! Bring em on.

    Thanks for changing my mind, it is a beautiful thing
    You have been someone throughout who has maintained that Brexit was about restricting immigration.

    You have also for some time talked about "white flight".

    You most recently have commented about a non-indigenous shopping mall in your previous manor.

    I doubt I've changed your mind.
  • TazTaz Posts: 2,477
    ping said:

    Mr. Malmesbury, got to be 'culturally sensitive'.

    My religion requires personal ownership of the most powerful weapons in the world. As evidence of our peacefulness.

    Why is my right to 120Kg of Oralloy denied?

    Will no one respect my culture?
    Don’t know what Oralloy is. Will googling it put me on prevent’s books?
    https://youtu.be/zyuS8GcENfQ
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,370
    Mr. Carnyx, the New Testament overrides the Old, however, when the two disagree.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,561
    Aslan said:

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    Both are an issue.

    Plenty of countries have done vile crap in the name of Christianity. Christianity is pretty evil when its dogmatically enforced in my view, the good thing is that people are quite relaxed now at turning a blind eye to most of the worst Christian rules post-Reformation. Islam unfortunately has never been through a Reformation in the same way.

    Anyone who is dogmatically Christian, or Muslim etc ... it tends to be dangerous.
    The Protestant sects in Christianity were no better than the pre-Reformation Catholics. What moderated Christianity was the Enlightenment, not the Reformation.

    However I would say the fundamentals of Christianity are pretty good, if you truly accept Jesus's reinterpretation of the Old Testament law. The core of his message is forgiveness, pacifism and inclusion, with a bit of secularism thrown in too. You can't say anything like that about Mohammed.
    The problem of Christianity is that it was invented and amended by people who have different agendas so its got layer over layer over layer in it - some of it good, some of it bad. If you wish to you can highlight the good bits, if you don't you can highlight the bad bits.

    Drop the Old Testament, and half of the New Testament (anything involving Paul) and it'd be a lot better in my opinion.

    A big part of the problem with the Church is its frequently been more about Paul than Jesus.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,611

    Mr. Carnyx, the New Testament overrides the Old, however, when the two disagree.

    Indeed, but the point re finding someone without sin still stands. Probably deliberate rabbinical irony.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 25,519
    MaxPB said:

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    Find me a country implementing biblical law to real life and I'll condemn it.
    USA Red States, way they're going. Joke, but only just.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,503
    Actually a lot in that in terms of having faith in the public on vaccines I.e booster jabs, 12-15 year olds. On my social media you’d guess looked like the majority were again.

    Oh - and interesting to see most people not saying they’d buy an electric car before 2030. Something has gone a tad wrong with government PR, as eventually we’ll all be left with no choice
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,482
    https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1449564402387197956

    Apologies if this Deltapoll poll has already been discussed. Movement looks like more than margin of error stuff.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 734
    Carnyx said:

    Aslan said:

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    The Bible does NOT say that if you actually read the whole thing. Jesus explicitly says "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
    But those two verses are entirely compatible, if you find someone without sin.

    Which is of course impossible under the doctrine of the fall and original sin. Though not being a theologian, I'm not sure if that came along later, so to speak.
    It is impossible to be without sin in either 1ct Century Jewish thought or Christian thought. The clear message from Jesus was that some people deserve death, but we are all too flawed as human beings to be the judge of that.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,503

    Dan Hodges is calling for us to tone down the debate when he has commented a number of times about killing Jeremy Corbyn.

    Hmm - I can see what the left are doing here. I believe the Corbyn quote was in relation to him being “vampire Jez”
  • AslanAslan Posts: 734
    For those wondering about Somalis in the UK, the vast majority of the British Somali community came here on Dutch passports. The Netherlands let in huge numbers of refugees on a wave of feel good humanitarian sentiment in the 1990s. Half of them then decided they would rather live in the UK once they had an EU citizenship.

    https://nomadit.co.uk/conference/easa2020/paper/55059
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 6,482
    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    Find me a country implementing biblical law to real life and I'll condemn it.
    USA Red States, way they're going. Joke, but only just.
    Texas's abortion law is a clear example of a law implemented for religious reasons. I'm not sure if abortion is actually mentioned in the bible explicitly, but US evangelicals certainly act like it is.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,370
    Mr. Carnyx, ironic you refer to the rabbinical when it was the eldest who left first after those words.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 734

    Mr. Battery, perhaps because in a Muslim-majority country Islam always forms at least part of the law code (Turkey used to be quite the exception but is shifting away from secularism), and in minority countries like the UK a de facto blasphemy law is increasingly in effect due to the threatening ways of fundamentalist mobs and cowardice of the political and media class?

    You can mock or question Christianity without the same level of concern that a psycho will cut your head off.

    The lack of a reformation and/or the basically fundamentalist nature of Islam makes it a different beast.

    Islam did have a Reformation. It is called Wahhabism and it is even more violent and bloodthirsty than early Lutheranism.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,550
    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    They are coming here from farther parts of the world, via the French!
    So that's mission accomplished.

    People on here are forever saying how they are not against immigration just that it's unfair it's restricted to the EU.

    So rejoice at the Somalis here. Right?
    Yeah!!!!! Bring em on.

    Thanks for changing my mind, it is a beautiful thing
    You have been someone throughout who has maintained that Brexit was about restricting immigration.

    You have also for some time talked about "white flight".

    You most recently have commented about a non-indigenous shopping mall in your previous manor.

    I doubt I've changed your mind.
    Have to get up pretty early in the morning to catch you out!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,879
    Aslan said:

    For those wondering about Somalis in the UK, the vast majority of the British Somali community came here on Dutch passports. The Netherlands let in huge numbers of refugees on a wave of feel good humanitarian sentiment in the 1990s. Half of them then decided they would rather live in the UK once they had an EU citizenship.

    https://nomadit.co.uk/conference/easa2020/paper/55059

    Yet we're regularly told that:

    1) That migrants from other European countries are all so much more educated, skilled and hard working than British people

    2) Have all returned to their own countries after Brexit
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 21,879
    MaxPB said:

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    Find me a country implementing biblical law to real life and I'll condemn it.
    Did the Liviticus / Deuteronomy debate re marrying your late brother's widow ever get concluded ?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,611
    edited October 17

    MaxPB said:

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    Find me a country implementing biblical law to real life and I'll condemn it.
    Did the Liviticus / Deuteronomy debate re marrying your late brother's widow ever get concluded ?
    It was a thing in the C19 UK.

    Edit: or at least "Marrying your Deceased Wife's Sister" used to cause a lot of heartburn. Not sure why the reversal.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 734
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    isam said:

    TOPPING said:

    Fpt

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Tres said:

    Leon said:

    Why is there ‘anyone’ here from Somalia?

    We have no colonial connection. No debt to pay. And it’s not English-speaking

    I can understand the odd doctor, but why on earth is there a large Somalian community? In the UK?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Somaliland
    1. That’s a small part of what we now call Somalia

    2. It’s a protectorate not a colony. Big difference. So, as I originally said, ‘we have no colonial connection’
    So what is your proposed solution to all these unwanted Somalis? Especially the ones who most outrageously are here because they are citizens?
    I have no solution. There is none. I’m with isam. We stupidly allowed it to happen, it is largely a disaster, but now we have to make the best of it, as decent human beings on all sides. It won’t be easy. As we already see. Yet we can and must try

    Meanwhile all further immigration from that part of the world should be - looking at you Ms Patel - well-nigh impossible
    I thought Brexit was precisely about letting people from farther parts of the world come here rather than, say, the French.

    They are coming here from farther parts of the world, via the French!
    So that's mission accomplished.

    People on here are forever saying how they are not against immigration just that it's unfair it's restricted to the EU.

    So rejoice at the Somalis here. Right?
    If they meet the points-based requirements then absolutely, no reason they shouldn't come.
    It's curious why people on here now seem to want to restrict immigration based upon country of origin.
    Because some countries of origin have much higher rates of extremism than others. That suggests we should, at the least, have additional checks on them and perhaps oaths sworn on your chosen holy book that you embrace the values of liberal democracy and equality before the law
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 31,871
    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    Find me a country implementing biblical law to real life and I'll condemn it.
    USA Red States, way they're going. Joke, but only just.
    Sadly not a joke given what's happening on Texas over women's rights and I've condemned them multiple times, really hoping the SCOTUS will restore those rights and over the long term those Californians moving to Texas will mean a Democratic governor.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 734

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    Find me a country implementing biblical law to real life and I'll condemn it.
    USA Red States, way they're going. Joke, but only just.
    Texas's abortion law is a clear example of a law implemented for religious reasons. I'm not sure if abortion is actually mentioned in the bible explicitly, but US evangelicals certainly act like it is.
    Abortion is not mentioned at all in the Bible. The US evangelical movement only embraced an anti-abortion position in the 1970s.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 10,835
    edited October 17

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    (Good job it is Sunday; we can do a bit of theology.)

    Your second question is easy - no it doesn't, unless you ignore the New Testament. One of the most famous Gospel passages of all refutes that law:

    From John chapter 8: 4 “Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?”

    6 They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. 7 They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” 8 Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.

    9 When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. 10 Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”

    11 “No, Lord,” she said.

    And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 8:1-11&version=NLT

    More problematic if you don't believe in the NT, but I bet (now on topic for PB) that there is a good Jewish answer; there usually is.

    Your first question is a lot more interesting.

    Christianity is explicitly separate from culture, and expressed differently in each culture, thanks to the Apostle Paul. There was a very early (before AD50), and very foundational, debate (see Acts of the Apostles chapter 15) about whether Jewish cultural practices (circumcision in this case) should be required of gentile (non-Jewish) converts. After a debate they settled on "no". And you get such varied expressions across cultures as a result.

    People who try and tangle them back together often end up in a mess when they try to say that their cultural practises are required.

    AIUI traditional Islam rolls this back and subsumes culture, and politics, far more into Islam. Perhaps @TSE could explain?
  • AslanAslan Posts: 734
    MaxPB said:

    kinabalu said:

    MaxPB said:

    Why can we distinguish between culture and religion when it comes to Christianity but not when it comes to Islam?

    The Bible says we should stone a woman to death for adultery but if a country implements that policy nobody is going to blame that on Christianity.

    Find me a country implementing biblical law to real life and I'll condemn it.
    USA Red States, way they're going. Joke, but only just.
    Sadly not a joke given what's happening on Texas over women's rights and I've condemned them multiple times, really hoping the SCOTUS will restore those rights and over the long term those Californians moving to Texas will mean a Democratic governor.
    The SCOTUS has a 6-3 majority deliberately designed to overturn Roe vs Wade.
This discussion has been closed.