Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
On this topic. Was out in Toon today. Adverts for workers everywhere. Who'd have thought that in Newcastle? Not for 60 years. Even some big professional banners at Metro Stations. However. .. Some employers badly need to get real. This is an employee's market, matey. Example. Well-known book shop chain. Wants people available 7 days a week to do shifts at their pleasure. 4 positions at 22.5 hours per week only guaranteed. Give me a break!! Not going to happen. Get used to it.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
The problem is a lack of butchers to work in abattoirs. Not workers on farms. ASIUI.
And what salary are the abattoirs offering to the butchers?
On boundary changes, I don't remember the process last time, but I see from their site that they will be publishing the comments to their initial proposals, then consulting on those comments, and only at that point will they work up changes to their initial proposals. Which is an interesting approach, and on the face of it makes sense to me, since I've certainly seen local issues where responses to consultations by drafters overshoot and make things worse and people prefer the initials.
It works a little like planning, in that the people who make the well-informed comments using the appropriately relevant arguments (which will be about things like 'this community is being split' or ' what about doing this?'), but only make those arguments about the particular things which benefit their vote, tend to benefit.
It can work as a kind of soft, indirect gerrymandering through selective arguments. Rather like journos leaving inconvenient bits out of a story.
The Lib Dems have people who are very good at it.
But there is probably no better way to do it, and the fault is that of the other parties where they sit on their Rs.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
The problem is a lack of butchers to work in abattoirs. Not workers on farms. ASIUI.
And what salary are the abattoirs offering to the butchers?
£9.12 per hour for a night shift 6pm to 6am on a rather draining job?
No wonder that can't be fucking filled. Fuck em, I'll have imported meat in the interim if that's what they think is appropriate.
Blair and Co knew Eastern Europeans would see that kind of money for those kind of jobs as a pay rise. They played the arb between our Labour market and that of the ex communist countries
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
I'll have a guess that there aren't enough workers at the abattoirs because the pay and conditions aren't good enough.
I'll have another guess that the 'solution' being demanded is to get some migrants who will accept being exploited by said crap pay and conditions. Only for said migrants to then leave as soon as possible for jobs which have better pay and conditions.
Do you see that this might be a circular problem which only gets resolved when better pay and conditions are offered by those businesses who are continually saying that people aren't willing to do the job ?
Similarly when some business whines that it cannot get workers for £9ph I'd like it revealed what sort of housing a worker getting £9ph can afford in that location.
That may well be the medium term answer, provided of course that people are prepared to pay the higher prices for food which will result. And provided houses are built in the areas where abattoirs are located.
But it does not solve the immediate problem which is a lack of trained butchers now.
So what is your solution to the immediate problem?
I assume that there has been some compression: dirty or unsocial jobs used to demand a premium, with large numbers of immigrants available, they no longer do. But it would be nice to see actual evidence.
Perhaps part of it is language — if the wage is £9 an hour at the abbatoir and £9 an hour on the checkouts at Tesco well, if you speak English, you take the Tesco job.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
The problem is a lack of butchers to work in abattoirs. Not workers on farms. ASIUI.
Yes. Industrial farms work on a just in time efficiency-first model, churning out more animals as fast as they can in as small an area as possible and shipping the last lot off for slaughter to clear the space. If the slaughterhouse says sorry, we can't take them, the farmer has more animals than he can house. He doesn't have an alternative route to market beyond a trivial amount at a local farm shop, so...
As you'd expect me to say, an alternative model would be less fragile and intensive, with meat more expensive but raised in a better and less frenetic way. But you'd need to link that to subsidies for non-meat alternatives to avoid poorer families struggling with higher food bills.
That depends upon what you call a 'non-meat alternative'.
A tin of chickpeas is cheaper, tastier and better for you than the pretendy meat stuff.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
Make Brexit Work is a great slogan, no least because it’s an effing cockup at the moment. Four out of the last five pubs I have looked in have run out of cask ale. Has this ever happened, even in wartime?
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
I'll have a guess that there aren't enough workers at the abattoirs because the pay and conditions aren't good enough.
I'll have another guess that the 'solution' being demanded is to get some migrants who will accept being exploited by said crap pay and conditions. Only for said migrants to then leave as soon as possible for jobs which have better pay and conditions.
Do you see that this might be a circular problem which only gets resolved when better pay and conditions are offered by those businesses who are continually saying that people aren't willing to do the job ?
Similarly when some business whines that it cannot get workers for £9ph I'd like it revealed what sort of housing a worker getting £9ph can afford in that location.
That may well be the medium term answer, provided of course that people are prepared to pay the higher prices for food which will result. And provided houses are built in the areas where abattoirs are located.
But it does not solve the immediate problem which is a lack of trained butchers now.
So what is your solution to the immediate problem?
Buy imported meat that has been processed in abattoirs that are prepared to pay enough to recruit staff.
On boundary changes, I don't remember the process last time, but I see from their site that they will be publishing the comments to their initial proposals, then consulting on those comments, and only at that point will they work up changes to their initial proposals. Which is an interesting approach, and on the face of it makes sense to me, since I've certainly seen local issues where responses to consultations by drafters overshoot and make things worse and people prefer the initials.
It works a little like planning, in that the people who make the well-informed comments using the appropriately relevant arguments (which will be about things like 'this community is being split' or ' what about doing this?'), but only make those arguments about the particular things which benefit their vote, tend to benefit.
It can work as a kind of soft, indirect gerrymandering through selective arguments. Rather like journos leaving inconvenient bits out of a story.
The Lib Dems have people who are very good at it.
But there is probably no better way to do it, and the fault is that of the other parties where they sit on their Rs.
Back in 2001, spoke with a London Labour MP, who told me that his side had devoted a fair about of energy & attention to preparing submissions to the boundary commission. The Conservatives? Not so much. So he & his party got a bump because they were engaged, while the the Tories were asleep at the wheel.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
Nothing. Give the training that is required.
If a job supposedly requires "a large degree of skills" then surely it should be well paid to reflect the skills required?
What right does an employer have to demand "a large degree of skills" for £9.12 per hour on a 12 hour night shift? 🤔
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
I'll have a guess that there aren't enough workers at the abattoirs because the pay and conditions aren't good enough.
I'll have another guess that the 'solution' being demanded is to get some migrants who will accept being exploited by said crap pay and conditions. Only for said migrants to then leave as soon as possible for jobs which have better pay and conditions.
Do you see that this might be a circular problem which only gets resolved when better pay and conditions are offered by those businesses who are continually saying that people aren't willing to do the job ?
Similarly when some business whines that it cannot get workers for £9ph I'd like it revealed what sort of housing a worker getting £9ph can afford in that location.
That may well be the medium term answer, provided of course that people are prepared to pay the higher prices for food which will result. And provided houses are built in the areas where abattoirs are located.
But it does not solve the immediate problem which is a lack of trained butchers now.
So what is your solution to the immediate problem?
Buy imported meat that has been processed in abattoirs that are prepared to pay enough to recruit staff.
What is your solution to the pigs on British farms which cannot be slaughtered? That is the immediate animal welfare issue which was being raised. Not the availability of bacon.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
I'll have a guess that there aren't enough workers at the abattoirs because the pay and conditions aren't good enough.
I'll have another guess that the 'solution' being demanded is to get some migrants who will accept being exploited by said crap pay and conditions. Only for said migrants to then leave as soon as possible for jobs which have better pay and conditions.
Do you see that this might be a circular problem which only gets resolved when better pay and conditions are offered by those businesses who are continually saying that people aren't willing to do the job ?
Similarly when some business whines that it cannot get workers for £9ph I'd like it revealed what sort of housing a worker getting £9ph can afford in that location.
That may well be the medium term answer, provided of course that people are prepared to pay the higher prices for food which will result. And provided houses are built in the areas where abattoirs are located.
But it does not solve the immediate problem which is a lack of trained butchers now.
So what is your solution to the immediate problem?
Buy imported meat that has been processed in abattoirs that are prepared to pay enough to recruit staff.
What is your solution to the pigs on British farms which cannot be slaughtered? That is the immediate animal welfare issue which was being raised. Not the availability of bacon.
Slaughtering them and burying them bse-style rather than turning them into chops would be a terrible waste, but what happens after they are dead is not directly an animal welfare issue.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
I'll have a guess that there aren't enough workers at the abattoirs because the pay and conditions aren't good enough.
I'll have another guess that the 'solution' being demanded is to get some migrants who will accept being exploited by said crap pay and conditions. Only for said migrants to then leave as soon as possible for jobs which have better pay and conditions.
Do you see that this might be a circular problem which only gets resolved when better pay and conditions are offered by those businesses who are continually saying that people aren't willing to do the job ?
Similarly when some business whines that it cannot get workers for £9ph I'd like it revealed what sort of housing a worker getting £9ph can afford in that location.
That may well be the medium term answer, provided of course that people are prepared to pay the higher prices for food which will result. And provided houses are built in the areas where abattoirs are located.
But it does not solve the immediate problem which is a lack of trained butchers now.
So what is your solution to the immediate problem?
Buy imported meat that has been processed in abattoirs that are prepared to pay enough to recruit staff.
What is your solution to the pigs on British farms which cannot be slaughtered? That is the immediate animal welfare issue which was being raised. Not the availability of bacon.
I do not care. Look after them, dispose of them, do as you please. I really couldn't care less.
If you want staff to do something well though, you need to pay them well to do so. Expecting people to do a "skilled" and "difficult" job for £9.12 per hour on a night shift in an area they can't afford to live on that wage is disgusting and worse than any "animal welfare" issues for me.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
That is an important point. However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock. Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
The problem is a lack of butchers to work in abattoirs. Not workers on farms. ASIUI.
Yes. Industrial farms work on a just in time efficiency-first model, churning out more animals as fast as they can in as small an area as possible and shipping the last lot off for slaughter to clear the space. If the slaughterhouse says sorry, we can't take them, the farmer has more animals than he can house. He doesn't have an alternative route to market beyond a trivial amount at a local farm shop, so...
As you'd expect me to say, an alternative model would be less fragile and intensive, with meat more expensive but raised in a better and less frenetic way. But you'd need to link that to subsidies for non-meat alternatives to avoid poorer families struggling with higher food bills.
That depends upon what you call a 'non-meat alternative'.
A tin of chickpeas is cheaper, tastier and better for you than the pretendy meat stuff.
To spread the discussion over wider areas there are also the obesity and environmental issues associated with the western diet.
Now I appreciate the advantages that cheap meat and year round seasonal foods bring.
Make Brexit Work is a great slogan, no least because it’s an effing cockup at the moment. Four out of the last five pubs I have looked in have run out of cask ale. Has this ever happened, even in wartime?
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
That is an important point. However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock. Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
How much training is required? And why can't it be given?
And why shouldn't the salary reflect the training and skills someone has?
Do you think that £9.12 per hour for a 6pm to 6am night shift for a job that requires skills is appropriate?
Seem very keen on 'this FTA says what we say it does', rather than what it actually says. EuCo following French line. The claim about 'exhaustive evidence' seems to be not very credible. Hope that Jersey has sufficient enforcement resources in place.
Quite vituperative stuff on France 24, all about how retaliation could be done via cutting Electricity connections, blocking traffic on the Chunnel, and by using international students as leverage, and how the British/Jersey move is playing to the Tory Party conference.
Were this over here, the BBC would be pointing out that the demands are contrary to the FTA and any reaction has to go through the agreed processes.
French Ministerial statement:
We understand and share the frustration of our fishermen. We cannot cooperate in confidence with the UK until the deal is honored. We will not hesitate to take retaliatory action, collectively. " EU Statement:
‘International students’?
Wtf does that mean? They will stop French students coming to the Uk? Or vice versa?
And blocking the channel?? That comes close to actual hostility
The Times reports today that macron is apparently in a ‘dark rage’. He has been publicly and globally humiliated by AUKUS. There must be a risk he will do something actively stupid
And here is the French Maritime Affairs Minister Annick Girardin threatening students:
The French maritime minister, Annick Girardin, said France and the EU would work on potential responses over the next two weeks unless the UK was able to resolve the dispute quickly.
Paris is considering measures that would involve energy and trade, as well as train connections and British students living in France, she said after a meeting with fishing representatives. She called on other European countries to show solidarity “because what France is going through today, some others will also go through it”.
The French government spokesman, Gabriel Attal, said the decisions by the UK and Jersey authorities were “totally unacceptable and inadmissible” and “contravene the agreement that was signed in the framework of Brexit”.
The French Ministerial Morons need to read the agreement they signed...
French vanity and belligerence is one of the things most likely to fracture the EU in the coming years.
I'm not so sure. They are the worst kind of bully - ingratiating to those they need, like Germany, but vicious when they can get away with it.
And it's not as if their vanity and belligerence are exactly new traits.
I think their vision of what the EU can do for them is starting to reach the end of the road though. There is a fundamental contradiction that hasn't yet been resolved.
Yes, AUKUS is forcing the EU to towards a tremendous decision. Does the EU become a proper military entity, capable of self-defence - and rebuffing Putin? Or does it continue to rely on the US and the Anglophone Alliance?
France clearly wants the former, but it wants it on French terms, with French arms and French leadership
Eastern Europe is not interested in this, and cleaves to America, thinking France too selfish (and too weak, basically)
Germany? Italy? Who knows. But soon they will all have to decide
Is it fair (though provocative )to describe Germany as 'in Russia's sphere of influence', now, after Nordstream 2?
Not sure about Italy v France, but one of the reasons for French butthurt may be that the Yanks have ordered up to 20 FREMM frigates for their Constellation class. FREMM is joint French / Italian, with the French one being a bit stripped out and cheaper, and the USA bought the Italian version.
Make Brexit Work is a great slogan, no least because it’s an effing cockup at the moment. Four out of the last five pubs I have looked in have run out of cask ale. Has this ever happened, even in wartime?
Seem very keen on 'this FTA says what we say it does', rather than what it actually says. EuCo following French line. The claim about 'exhaustive evidence' seems to be not very credible. Hope that Jersey has sufficient enforcement resources in place.
Quite vituperative stuff on France 24, all about how retaliation could be done via cutting Electricity connections, blocking traffic on the Chunnel, and by using international students as leverage, and how the British/Jersey move is playing to the Tory Party conference.
Were this over here, the BBC would be pointing out that the demands are contrary to the FTA and any reaction has to go through the agreed processes.
French Ministerial statement:
We understand and share the frustration of our fishermen. We cannot cooperate in confidence with the UK until the deal is honored. We will not hesitate to take retaliatory action, collectively. " EU Statement:
‘International students’?
Wtf does that mean? They will stop French students coming to the Uk? Or vice versa?
And blocking the channel?? That comes close to actual hostility
The Times reports today that macron is apparently in a ‘dark rage’. He has been publicly and globally humiliated by AUKUS. There must be a risk he will do something actively stupid
And here is the French Maritime Affairs Minister Annick Girardin threatening students:
The French maritime minister, Annick Girardin, said France and the EU would work on potential responses over the next two weeks unless the UK was able to resolve the dispute quickly.
Paris is considering measures that would involve energy and trade, as well as train connections and British students living in France, she said after a meeting with fishing representatives. She called on other European countries to show solidarity “because what France is going through today, some others will also go through it”.
The French government spokesman, Gabriel Attal, said the decisions by the UK and Jersey authorities were “totally unacceptable and inadmissible” and “contravene the agreement that was signed in the framework of Brexit”.
The French Ministerial Morons need to read the agreement they signed...
French vanity and belligerence is one of the things most likely to fracture the EU in the coming years.
I'm not so sure. They are the worst kind of bully - ingratiating to those they need, like Germany, but vicious when they can get away with it.
And it's not as if their vanity and belligerence are exactly new traits.
I think their vision of what the EU can do for them is starting to reach the end of the road though. There is a fundamental contradiction that hasn't yet been resolved.
Yes, AUKUS is forcing the EU to towards a tremendous decision. Does the EU become a proper military entity, capable of self-defence - and rebuffing Putin? Or does it continue to rely on the US and the Anglophone Alliance?
France clearly wants the former, but it wants it on French terms, with French arms and French leadership
Eastern Europe is not interested in this, and cleaves to America, thinking France too selfish (and too weak, basically)
Germany? Italy? Who knows. But soon they will all have to decide
If France were serious about EU defence force then they would recognise the EU as the successor state for the UNSC and give up their veto.
Make Brexit Work is a great slogan, no least because it’s an effing cockup at the moment. Four out of the last five pubs I have looked in have run out of cask ale. Has this ever happened, even in wartime?
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
That is an important point. However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock. Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
That is an important point. However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock. Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
How much training is required? And why can't it be given?
And why shouldn't the salary reflect the training and skills someone has?
Do you think that £9.12 per hour for a 6pm to 6am night shift for a job that requires skills is appropriate?
£11.78 for night shift in an Amazon warehouse, yep I've that before but it’s worth repeating.
Wages are going up and the only way to minimise the impact of those wage increases is to automate things and seek productivity improvements.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
I'll have a guess that there aren't enough workers at the abattoirs because the pay and conditions aren't good enough.
I'll have another guess that the 'solution' being demanded is to get some migrants who will accept being exploited by said crap pay and conditions. Only for said migrants to then leave as soon as possible for jobs which have better pay and conditions.
Do you see that this might be a circular problem which only gets resolved when better pay and conditions are offered by those businesses who are continually saying that people aren't willing to do the job ?
Similarly when some business whines that it cannot get workers for £9ph I'd like it revealed what sort of housing a worker getting £9ph can afford in that location.
That may well be the medium term answer, provided of course that people are prepared to pay the higher prices for food which will result. And provided houses are built in the areas where abattoirs are located.
But it does not solve the immediate problem which is a lack of trained butchers now.
So what is your solution to the immediate problem?
Buy imported meat that has been processed in abattoirs that are prepared to pay enough to recruit staff.
What is your solution to the pigs on British farms which cannot be slaughtered? That is the immediate animal welfare issue which was being raised. Not the availability of bacon.
Slaughtering them and burying them bse-style rather than turning them into chops would be a terrible waste, but what happens after they are dead is not directly an animal welfare issue.
I'm old enough to remember when Brexit was being sold as beneficial to British farmers. Now we're talking about wide-scale destruction of livestock?
Are we sure we know what we're doing?
Yes we know what we're doing. The right thing.
Farmers that aren't prepared to pay their way maybe signed up to the wrong project.
Make Brexit Work is a great slogan, no least because it’s an effing cockup at the moment. Four out of the last five pubs I have looked in have run out of cask ale. Has this ever happened, even in wartime?
A floating voter friend of mine - soft Remain, but hates Remoaners - has texted me
"Watched a bit of Keir. I like him. He's honest. I'm bored of Boris. I will vote for Keir next time"
He's in a quasi-marginal and voted Tory in 2019.....
Philip Thompson is right! The electorate are going to be an ungrateful bunch towards everything Boris has done for them.
Why do you keep [mis]quoting me? Especially for things I haven't said the way you say it?
It's weird and a little creepy.
You said it in an answer to my post after the new tax was introduced. That they could be ungrateful and not stick with him.
What do you (mistakenly) claim you said?
Saying people "could be ungrateful" is different from saying people "are going to be an ungrateful bunch". You don't see the difference?
People don't generally do gratitude in politics but I would never call people "an ungrateful bunch" that's just unnecessarily rude. That isn't how I speak.
Hello. Mr Creepy here. I went looking for the actual post, around the time of the new tax, 5, 6, 7, 8th and didn’t find it. If I’ve misrepresented or misquoted you, I apologise Philip.
Your post about voters might not be grateful to Boris for getting Brexit done did resonate with me as being possibly true, voters might turn out to be fickle like that, you shouldn’t back away from what you said when goaded that you are obviously wrong because Boris new tax has the voters support, as the policy has affects voters may lose their previous support.
HOWEVER, I did find a couple of interesting discussions back around the 7th Sept (I’ve been three hours looking for your post, I only picked up the pad for a screen break) one discussion was about not being able to get the right materials to treat sewage so the government had given dispensation to dump untreated sewage, and a second discussion was, as there is a driver shortage, could there be a shortage of petrol at the pumps.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
That is an important point. However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock. Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
How much training is required? And why can't it be given?
And why shouldn't the salary reflect the training and skills someone has?
Do you think that £9.12 per hour for a 6pm to 6am night shift for a job that requires skills is appropriate?
£11.78 for night shift in an Amazon warehouse, yep I've that before but it’s worth repeating.
Wages are going up and the only way to minimise the impact of those wage increases is to automate things and seek productivity improvements.
A night shift in my eyes ought to be at least about £15 per hour. Double time or time and a half at the very least for night shifts.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
I'll have a guess that there aren't enough workers at the abattoirs because the pay and conditions aren't good enough.
I'll have another guess that the 'solution' being demanded is to get some migrants who will accept being exploited by said crap pay and conditions. Only for said migrants to then leave as soon as possible for jobs which have better pay and conditions.
Do you see that this might be a circular problem which only gets resolved when better pay and conditions are offered by those businesses who are continually saying that people aren't willing to do the job ?
Similarly when some business whines that it cannot get workers for £9ph I'd like it revealed what sort of housing a worker getting £9ph can afford in that location.
That may well be the medium term answer, provided of course that people are prepared to pay the higher prices for food which will result. And provided houses are built in the areas where abattoirs are located.
But it does not solve the immediate problem which is a lack of trained butchers now.
So what is your solution to the immediate problem?
Buy imported meat that has been processed in abattoirs that are prepared to pay enough to recruit staff.
What is your solution to the pigs on British farms which cannot be slaughtered? That is the immediate animal welfare issue which was being raised. Not the availability of bacon.
Slaughtering them and burying them bse-style rather than turning them into chops would be a terrible waste, but what happens after they are dead is not directly an animal welfare issue.
I'm old enough to remember when Brexit was being sold as beneficial to British farmers. Now we're talking about wide-scale destruction of livestock?
Are we sure we know what we're doing?
I’m old enough to remember when immigration didn’t supress wages, and anyone who said it did was a dirty racist.
A floating voter friend of mine - soft Remain, but hates Remoaners - has texted me
"Watched a bit of Keir. I like him. He's honest. I'm bored of Boris. I will vote for Keir next time"
He's in a quasi-marginal and voted Tory in 2019.....
Philip Thompson is right! The electorate are going to be an ungrateful bunch towards everything Boris has done for them.
Why do you keep [mis]quoting me? Especially for things I haven't said the way you say it?
It's weird and a little creepy.
You said it in an answer to my post after the new tax was introduced. That they could be ungrateful and not stick with him.
What do you (mistakenly) claim you said?
Saying people "could be ungrateful" is different from saying people "are going to be an ungrateful bunch". You don't see the difference?
People don't generally do gratitude in politics but I would never call people "an ungrateful bunch" that's just unnecessarily rude. That isn't how I speak.
Hello. Mr Creepy here. I went looking for the actual post, around the time of the new tax, 5, 6, 7, 8th and didn’t find it. If I’ve misrepresented or misquoted you, I apologise Philip.
Your post about voters might not be grateful to Boris for getting Brexit done did resonate with me as being possibly true, voters might turn out to be fickle like that, you shouldn’t back away from what you said when goaded that you are obviously wrong because Boris new tax has the voters support, as the policy has affects voters may lose their previous support.
HOWEVER, I did find a couple of interesting discussions back around the 7th Sept (I’ve been three hours looking for your post, I only picked up the pad for a screen break) one discussion was about not being able to get the right materials to treat sewage so the government had given dispensation to dump untreated sewage, and a second discussion was, as there is a driver shortage, could there be a shortage of petrol at the pumps.
Rising wages due to full employment are a fantastic thing for the economy and will lead to higher prosperity, higher investment, higher productivity and a better standard of living all around.
Anyone bemoaning they can't get staff to work at pittance rates can take a long run of a short pier as far as I'm concerned. Zero fucks given, let the market sort it out.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
That is an important point. However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock. Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
How much training is required? And why can't it be given?
And why shouldn't the salary reflect the training and skills someone has?
Do you think that £9.12 per hour for a 6pm to 6am night shift for a job that requires skills is appropriate?
No. @Philip_Thompson I fundamentally agree with you. My problem is that the PM and this Brexit government were repeatedly warned about all this. Did they mitigate it? At all? No. They totally denied it would happen. So. We have a skills shortage. So. Should we pull experienced slaughtermen off shift now to train a bunch of newbies? Thus increasing the problem? At root. There was full employment. Then the Eastern Europeans went home. So now there is a labour shortage. Now, doubtless you will say "Abracadabra invisible hand" all problems disappear. But they don't. There are too few workers for too many positions. Simple. We either need more workers, fewer positions, or both. None of those three will happen quickly. So here we are.
On boundary changes, I don't remember the process last time, but I see from their site that they will be publishing the comments to their initial proposals, then consulting on those comments, and only at that point will they work up changes to their initial proposals. Which is an interesting approach, and on the face of it makes sense to me, since I've certainly seen local issues where responses to consultations by drafters overshoot and make things worse and people prefer the initials.
It works a little like planning, in that the people who make the well-informed comments using the appropriately relevant arguments (which will be about things like 'this community is being split' or ' what about doing this?'), but only make those arguments about the particular things which benefit their vote, tend to benefit.
It can work as a kind of soft, indirect gerrymandering through selective arguments. Rather like journos leaving inconvenient bits out of a story.
The Lib Dems have people who are very good at it.
But there is probably no better way to do it, and the fault is that of the other parties where they sit on their Rs.
Back in 2001, spoke with a London Labour MP, who told me that his side had devoted a fair about of energy & attention to preparing submissions to the boundary commission. The Conservatives? Not so much. So he & his party got a bump because they were engaged, while the the Tories were asleep at the wheel.
Yes, i suspect that all the parties have their experts.
However, in my reading LDs seem to have more of a focus on it. IMO they need marginal gains as more a core part of their results. Seasoned political campaigners understand the importance of the boundaries. Any area that is divided up into electoral districts has to have lines drawn somewhere. Moving a village between this or that constituency can make all the difference to who wins and who loses. Sometimes changes are so significant that new constituencies are radically different to their predecessors. https://www.libdemvoice.org/the-parliamentary-boundary-review-is-contintuing-54993.html
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
That is an important point. However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock. Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
How much training is required? And why can't it be given?
And why shouldn't the salary reflect the training and skills someone has?
Do you think that £9.12 per hour for a 6pm to 6am night shift for a job that requires skills is appropriate?
No. @Philip_Thompson I fundamentally agree with you. My problem is that the PM and this Brexit government were repeatedly warned about all this. Did they mitigate it? At all? No. They totally denied it would happen. So. We have a skills shortage. So. Should we pull experienced slaughtermen off shift now to train a bunch of newbies? Thus increasing the problem? At root. There was full employment. Then the Eastern Europeans went home. So now there is a labour shortage. Now, doubtless you will say "Abracadabra invisible hand" all problems disappear. But they don't. There are too few workers for too many positions. Simple. We either need more workers, fewer positions, or both. None of those three will happen quickly. So here we are.
"Abracadabra invisible hand".
Good line. You're right.
They don't need to happen quickly and it is absolutely not the Government's job to mitigate it. It is the job of each individual firm concerned to look after their own interests, it is the job of each individual employee to look after their own interests, and it is the job of the state as much as possible to not get in the way of that.
If it doesn't happen quickly, it doesn't happen quickly. If they don't get the staff then abattoirs and farmers will simply lose clients and we will eat imported meat and honestly - why should we care about any of that?
The biggest losers from that are the abattoirs and farmers. So they're faced with the invidious choice: pay the going rate and get it done, or lose business.
Their mess, they need to clean it up.
Ultimately the efficient or needed business will be able to demand more money and pay more for staff, the least efficient businesses will die, and we'll have fewer jobs matching the number of employees and we'll have a new equilibrium.
Rising wages due to full employment are a fantastic thing for the economy and will lead to higher prosperity, higher investment, higher productivity and a better standard of living all around.
Anyone bemoaning they can't get staff to work at pittance rates can take a long run of a short pier as far as I'm concerned. Zero fucks given, let the market sort it out.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
That is an important point. However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock. Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
How much training is required? And why can't it be given?
And why shouldn't the salary reflect the training and skills someone has?
Do you think that £9.12 per hour for a 6pm to 6am night shift for a job that requires skills is appropriate?
No. @Philip_Thompson I fundamentally agree with you. My problem is that the PM and this Brexit government were repeatedly warned about all this. Did they mitigate it? At all? No. They totally denied it would happen. So. We have a skills shortage. So. Should we pull experienced slaughtermen off shift now to train a bunch of newbies? Thus increasing the problem? At root. There was full employment. Then the Eastern Europeans went home. So now there is a labour shortage. Now, doubtless you will say "Abracadabra invisible hand" all problems disappear. But they don't. There are too few workers for too many positions. Simple. We either need more workers, fewer positions, or both. None of those three will happen quickly. So here we are.
"Abracadabra invisible hand".
Good line. You're right.
They don't need to happen quickly and it is absolutely not the Government's job to mitigate it. It is the job of each individual firm concerned to look after their own interests, it is the job of each individual employee to look after their own interests, and it is the job of the state as much as possible to not get in the way of that.
If it doesn't happen quickly, it doesn't happen quickly. If they don't get the staff then abattoirs and farmers will simply lose clients and we will eat imported meat and honestly - why should we care about any of that?
The biggest losers from that are the abattoirs and farmers. So they're faced with the invidious choice: pay the going rate and get it done, or lose business.
Their mess, they need to clean it up.
Ultimately the efficient or needed business will be able to demand more money and pay more for staff, the least efficient businesses will die, and we'll have fewer jobs matching the number of employees and we'll have a new equilibrium.
See. We basically agree. Problem is your Leaver PM didn't sell any of that. Nor does he believe it. Nor is it his government's stated policy. Apart from that we are in the Pure Land of Keajara.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
That is an important point. However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock. Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
How much training is required? And why can't it be given?
And why shouldn't the salary reflect the training and skills someone has?
Do you think that £9.12 per hour for a 6pm to 6am night shift for a job that requires skills is appropriate?
No. @Philip_Thompson I fundamentally agree with you. My problem is that the PM and this Brexit government were repeatedly warned about all this. Did they mitigate it? At all? No. They totally denied it would happen. So. We have a skills shortage. So. Should we pull experienced slaughtermen off shift now to train a bunch of newbies? Thus increasing the problem? At root. There was full employment. Then the Eastern Europeans went home. So now there is a labour shortage. Now, doubtless you will say "Abracadabra invisible hand" all problems disappear. But they don't. There are too few workers for too many positions. Simple. We either need more workers, fewer positions, or both. None of those three will happen quickly. So here we are.
"Abracadabra invisible hand".
Good line. You're right.
They don't need to happen quickly and it is absolutely not the Government's job to mitigate it. It is the job of each individual firm concerned to look after their own interests, it is the job of each individual employee to look after their own interests, and it is the job of the state as much as possible to not get in the way of that.
If it doesn't happen quickly, it doesn't happen quickly. If they don't get the staff then abattoirs and farmers will simply lose clients and we will eat imported meat and honestly - why should we care about any of that?
The biggest losers from that are the abattoirs and farmers. So they're faced with the invidious choice: pay the going rate and get it done, or lose business.
Their mess, they need to clean it up.
Ultimately the efficient or needed business will be able to demand more money and pay more for staff, the least efficient businesses will die, and we'll have fewer jobs matching the number of employees and we'll have a new equilibrium.
See. We basically agree. Problem is your Leaver PM didn't sell any of that. Nor does he believe it. Nor is it his government's stated policy. Apart from that we are in the Pure Land of Keajara.
Did he not?
Does he not?
According to reports, when the HGV association drivers came and said they were struggling to fill vacancies the line they got back was "have you tried paying more?" For which it seems the answer so far is: no, not by enough yet.
What do you think the stated policy is? Seems to me that people getting better pay is stated policy.
It seems strange to me to be arguing so strongly in favour of pay rises and against businesses as for almost all my life my free market economics has been in favour of business and against unions etc seeking to inflate wages past the market rate. Now though the shoe is on the other foot, its businesses seeking to deflate wages below the market rate.
Well what's sauce for the goose is good for the gander. I'm in favour of letting the market clear it out. I was when unions were the ones trying to distort the market, and its no different when its businesses that are.
I don't get the Pure Land of Keajara reference sorry.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
That is an important point. However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock. Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
How much training is required? And why can't it be given?
And why shouldn't the salary reflect the training and skills someone has?
Do you think that £9.12 per hour for a 6pm to 6am night shift for a job that requires skills is appropriate?
£11.78 for night shift in an Amazon warehouse, yep I've that before but it’s worth repeating.
Wages are going up and the only way to minimise the impact of those wage increases is to automate things and seek productivity improvements.
A night shift in my eyes ought to be at least about £15 per hour. Double time or time and a half at the very least for night shifts.
Oh it probably isn’t enough - I posted it as a comparison to that stupidly underpaid abattoir night shift
On boundary changes, I don't remember the process last time, but I see from their site that they will be publishing the comments to their initial proposals, then consulting on those comments, and only at that point will they work up changes to their initial proposals. Which is an interesting approach, and on the face of it makes sense to me, since I've certainly seen local issues where responses to consultations by drafters overshoot and make things worse and people prefer the initials.
It works a little like planning, in that the people who make the well-informed comments using the appropriately relevant arguments (which will be about things like 'this community is being split' or ' what about doing this?'), but only make those arguments about the particular things which benefit their vote, tend to benefit.
It can work as a kind of soft, indirect gerrymandering through selective arguments. Rather like journos leaving inconvenient bits out of a story.
The Lib Dems have people who are very good at it.
But there is probably no better way to do it, and the fault is that of the other parties where they sit on their Rs.
Back in 2001, spoke with a London Labour MP, who told me that his side had devoted a fair about of energy & attention to preparing submissions to the boundary commission. The Conservatives? Not so much. So he & his party got a bump because they were engaged, while the the Tories were asleep at the wheel.
Yes, i suspect that all the parties have their experts.
However, in my reading LDs seem to have more of a focus on it. IMO they need marginal gains as more a core part of their results. Seasoned political campaigners understand the importance of the boundaries. Any area that is divided up into electoral districts has to have lines drawn somewhere. Moving a village between this or that constituency can make all the difference to who wins and who loses. Sometimes changes are so significant that new constituencies are radically different to their predecessors. https://www.libdemvoice.org/the-parliamentary-boundary-review-is-contintuing-54993.html
In addition to the will, there must be the way. And in most of UK (or GB if you prefer) its been tough for Lib Dems to find a way, regardless of their degree of will, preparation, planning, researching, testifying.
As for Labour, in mid-1990s the former was sick & tired of opposition, sensing they were on the verge of power, but fearful of the possibility that they might yet again snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. So they - New and Old Labour - worked hard on ALL aspect of tactics & organization, including boundary reviews.
On the other hand, the Conservatives after years in power were beset both by fratricide AND ennui. Thus attention to the details re: constituency boundaries was something that tended to be slighted, ignored or mishandled. Not everywhere, but far more than a few instances.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
That is an important point. However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock. Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
How much training is required? And why can't it be given?
And why shouldn't the salary reflect the training and skills someone has?
Do you think that £9.12 per hour for a 6pm to 6am night shift for a job that requires skills is appropriate?
No. @Philip_Thompson I fundamentally agree with you. My problem is that the PM and this Brexit government were repeatedly warned about all this. Did they mitigate it? At all? No. They totally denied it would happen. So. We have a skills shortage. So. Should we pull experienced slaughtermen off shift now to train a bunch of newbies? Thus increasing the problem? At root. There was full employment. Then the Eastern Europeans went home. So now there is a labour shortage. Now, doubtless you will say "Abracadabra invisible hand" all problems disappear. But they don't. There are too few workers for too many positions. Simple. We either need more workers, fewer positions, or both. None of those three will happen quickly. So here we are.
"Abracadabra invisible hand".
Good line. You're right.
They don't need to happen quickly and it is absolutely not the Government's job to mitigate it. It is the job of each individual firm concerned to look after their own interests, it is the job of each individual employee to look after their own interests, and it is the job of the state as much as possible to not get in the way of that.
If it doesn't happen quickly, it doesn't happen quickly. If they don't get the staff then abattoirs and farmers will simply lose clients and we will eat imported meat and honestly - why should we care about any of that?
The biggest losers from that are the abattoirs and farmers. So they're faced with the invidious choice: pay the going rate and get it done, or lose business.
Their mess, they need to clean it up.
Ultimately the efficient or needed business will be able to demand more money and pay more for staff, the least efficient businesses will die, and we'll have fewer jobs matching the number of employees and we'll have a new equilibrium.
See. We basically agree. Problem is your Leaver PM didn't sell any of that. Nor does he believe it. Nor is it his government's stated policy. Apart from that we are in the Pure Land of Keajara.
Did he not?
Does he not?
According to reports, when the HGV association drivers came and said they were struggling to fill vacancies the line they got back was "have you tried paying more?" For which it seems the answer so far is: no, not by enough yet.
What do you think the stated policy is? Seems to me that people getting better pay is stated policy.
It seems strange to me to be arguing so strongly in favour of pay rises and against businesses as for almost all my life my free market economics has been in favour of business and against unions etc seeking to inflate wages past the market rate. Now though the shoe is on the other foot, its businesses seeking to deflate wages below the market rate.
Well what's sauce for the goose is good for the gander. I'm in favour of letting the market clear it out. I was when unions were the ones trying to distort the market, and its no different when its businesses that are.
I don't get the Pure Land of Keajara reference sorry.
Mate. He didn't sell shortages. And, as I have posted repeatedly paying more does not equip folk with the skills to do the jobs. He certainly didn't sell higher unit cost prices for basic goods. Some Trade Union activity would be great right now. Then workers would get a proper pay rise. Some wildcat strikes in transport would do the job much more swiftly than your "invisible hand". In fact. You could view that as nimble responses to sclerotic market conditions.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
That is an important point. However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock. Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
How much training is required? And why can't it be given?
And why shouldn't the salary reflect the training and skills someone has?
Do you think that £9.12 per hour for a 6pm to 6am night shift for a job that requires skills is appropriate?
No. @Philip_Thompson I fundamentally agree with you. My problem is that the PM and this Brexit government were repeatedly warned about all this. Did they mitigate it? At all? No. They totally denied it would happen. So. We have a skills shortage. So. Should we pull experienced slaughtermen off shift now to train a bunch of newbies? Thus increasing the problem? At root. There was full employment. Then the Eastern Europeans went home. So now there is a labour shortage. Now, doubtless you will say "Abracadabra invisible hand" all problems disappear. But they don't. There are too few workers for too many positions. Simple. We either need more workers, fewer positions, or both. None of those three will happen quickly. So here we are.
There is a distinction to be drawn when we say “the eastern europeans went home”. Normally some would leave, some would come. So now none are coming, in aggregate, yes, they “went home”.
The large numbers of eastern europeans who went home during covid can come back - they have settled or pre-settled status. But, many will have found another job, or moved on. So, in aggregate they aren’t “coming back”.
You say this brexit government was warned, but they could mot have predicted the acceleration caused by covid. Simply running HGV tests as normal during lockdown would have sufficed, probably.
(Off topic, every journalist in britain seems convinced HGV drivers “cannot come back” - a paragraph to this effect appears in every article. Only Samuel Tombs seems to have bothered to look up what settled and pre-settled status mean.)
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
That is an important point. However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock. Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
How much training is required? And why can't it be given?
And why shouldn't the salary reflect the training and skills someone has?
Do you think that £9.12 per hour for a 6pm to 6am night shift for a job that requires skills is appropriate?
No. @Philip_Thompson I fundamentally agree with you. My problem is that the PM and this Brexit government were repeatedly warned about all this. Did they mitigate it? At all? No. They totally denied it would happen. So. We have a skills shortage. So. Should we pull experienced slaughtermen off shift now to train a bunch of newbies? Thus increasing the problem? At root. There was full employment. Then the Eastern Europeans went home. So now there is a labour shortage. Now, doubtless you will say "Abracadabra invisible hand" all problems disappear. But they don't. There are too few workers for too many positions. Simple. We either need more workers, fewer positions, or both. None of those three will happen quickly. So here we are.
There is a distinction to be drawn when we say “the eastern europeans went home”. Normally some would leave, some would come. So now none are coming, in aggregate, yes, they “went home”.
The large numbers of eastern europeans who went home during covid can come back - they have settled or pre-settled status. But, many will have found another job, or moved on. So, in aggregate they aren’t “coming back”.
You say this brexit government was warned, but they could mot have predicted the acceleration caused by covid. Simply running HGV tests as normal during lockdown would have sufficed, probably.
(Off topic, every journalist in britain seems convinced HGV drivers “cannot come back” - a paragraph to this effect appears in every article. Only Samuel Tombs seems to have bothered to look up what settled and pre-settled status mean.)
Well indeed. Your caveats are all true. Simply. We had full employment. A net number of them went home. So. We have a shortage. So. We need more workers. Or fewer jobs. Or both.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
Presumably British people used to do these jobs. When they found migrants could do the work for a lower wage they stopped bothering to train British people to do the jobs.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
So the solution for unpleasant jobs is to make them well paid to compensate for the fact they're unpleasant.
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
That they aren't just unpleasant. But require a large degree of skills. Which don't appear overnight simply because the pay goes up. What's so difficult about that?
What percentage of eastern european abbatoir workers in the UK were trained abbatoir workers before they arrived? Perhaps most of them, or perhaps they trained here. There is so much information missing from these debates.
That is an important point. However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock. Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
How much training is required? And why can't it be given?
And why shouldn't the salary reflect the training and skills someone has?
Do you think that £9.12 per hour for a 6pm to 6am night shift for a job that requires skills is appropriate?
No. @Philip_Thompson I fundamentally agree with you. My problem is that the PM and this Brexit government were repeatedly warned about all this. Did they mitigate it? At all? No. They totally denied it would happen. So. We have a skills shortage. So. Should we pull experienced slaughtermen off shift now to train a bunch of newbies? Thus increasing the problem? At root. There was full employment. Then the Eastern Europeans went home. So now there is a labour shortage. Now, doubtless you will say "Abracadabra invisible hand" all problems disappear. But they don't. There are too few workers for too many positions. Simple. We either need more workers, fewer positions, or both. None of those three will happen quickly. So here we are.
"Abracadabra invisible hand".
Good line. You're right.
They don't need to happen quickly and it is absolutely not the Government's job to mitigate it. It is the job of each individual firm concerned to look after their own interests, it is the job of each individual employee to look after their own interests, and it is the job of the state as much as possible to not get in the way of that.
If it doesn't happen quickly, it doesn't happen quickly. If they don't get the staff then abattoirs and farmers will simply lose clients and we will eat imported meat and honestly - why should we care about any of that?
The biggest losers from that are the abattoirs and farmers. So they're faced with the invidious choice: pay the going rate and get it done, or lose business.
Their mess, they need to clean it up.
Ultimately the efficient or needed business will be able to demand more money and pay more for staff, the least efficient businesses will die, and we'll have fewer jobs matching the number of employees and we'll have a new equilibrium.
Isn't it just easier to not change your business model, and allow the ongoing crisis to force the government to bail you up by opening up to more cheap migrants?
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
I'll have a guess that there aren't enough workers at the abattoirs because the pay and conditions aren't good enough.
I'll have another guess that the 'solution' being demanded is to get some migrants who will accept being exploited by said crap pay and conditions. Only for said migrants to then leave as soon as possible for jobs which have better pay and conditions.
Do you see that this might be a circular problem which only gets resolved when better pay and conditions are offered by those businesses who are continually saying that people aren't willing to do the job ?
Similarly when some business whines that it cannot get workers for £9ph I'd like it revealed what sort of housing a worker getting £9ph can afford in that location.
That may well be the medium term answer, provided of course that people are prepared to pay the higher prices for food which will result. And provided houses are built in the areas where abattoirs are located.
But it does not solve the immediate problem which is a lack of trained butchers now.
So what is your solution to the immediate problem?
To pretend that the economic disruption caused by Brexit is everyone else’s fault.
Comments
Have people who don't have degrees but want to make some good money take an unpleasant job and earn a good living.
What's the issue with that?
However. ..
Some employers badly need to get real. This is an employee's market, matey.
Example. Well-known book shop chain. Wants people available 7 days a week to do shifts at their pleasure.
4 positions at 22.5 hours per week only guaranteed.
Give me a break!! Not going to happen. Get used to it.
It can work as a kind of soft, indirect gerrymandering through selective arguments. Rather like journos leaving inconvenient bits out of a story.
The Lib Dems have people who are very good at it.
But there is probably no better way to do it, and the fault is that of the other parties where they sit on their Rs.
What's so difficult about that?
But it does not solve the immediate problem which is a lack of trained butchers now.
So what is your solution to the immediate problem?
Perhaps part of it is language — if the wage is £9 an hour at the abbatoir and £9 an hour on the checkouts at Tesco well, if you speak English, you take the Tesco job.
A tin of chickpeas is cheaper, tastier and better for you than the pretendy meat stuff.
Sort it out Boris, you clown.
If a job supposedly requires "a large degree of skills" then surely it should be well paid to reflect the skills required?
What right does an employer have to demand "a large degree of skills" for £9.12 per hour on a 12 hour night shift? 🤔
If you want staff to do something well though, you need to pay them well to do so. Expecting people to do a "skilled" and "difficult" job for £9.12 per hour on a night shift in an area they can't afford to live on that wage is disgusting and worse than any "animal welfare" issues for me.
Is it not for you?
However, fact is, you or I could work in Tesco's, or indeed the book shop beginning with W, with a day's induction, without endangering anyone, nor destroying any of the stock.
Simply not true of an abbatoir. Nor an HGV.
Now I appreciate the advantages that cheap meat and year round seasonal foods bring.
But they certainly come with other costs.
And why shouldn't the salary reflect the training and skills someone has?
Do you think that £9.12 per hour for a 6pm to 6am night shift for a job that requires skills is appropriate?
Not sure about Italy v France, but one of the reasons for French butthurt may be that the Yanks have ordered up to 20 FREMM frigates for their Constellation class. FREMM is joint French / Italian, with the French one being a bit stripped out and cheaper, and the USA bought the Italian version.
GN all 👍
They're not.
Wages are going up and the only way to minimise the impact of those wage increases is to automate things and seek productivity improvements.
Farmers that aren't prepared to pay their way maybe signed up to the wrong project.
Your post about voters might not be grateful to Boris for getting Brexit done did resonate with me as being possibly true, voters might turn out to be fickle like that, you shouldn’t back away from what you said when goaded that you are obviously wrong because Boris new tax has the voters support, as the policy has affects voters may lose their previous support.
HOWEVER, I did find a couple of interesting discussions back around the 7th Sept (I’ve been three hours looking for your post, I only picked up the pad for a screen break) one discussion was about not being able to get the right materials to treat sewage so the government had given dispensation to dump untreated sewage, and a second discussion was, as there is a driver shortage, could there be a shortage of petrol at the pumps.
Anyone bemoaning they can't get staff to work at pittance rates can take a long run of a short pier as far as I'm concerned. Zero fucks given, let the market sort it out.
No. They totally denied it would happen.
So. We have a skills shortage. So. Should we pull experienced slaughtermen off shift now to train a bunch of newbies? Thus increasing the problem?
At root. There was full employment. Then the Eastern Europeans went home. So now there is a labour shortage. Now, doubtless you will say "Abracadabra invisible hand" all problems disappear. But they don't.
There are too few workers for too many positions. Simple. We either need more workers, fewer positions, or both.
None of those three will happen quickly. So here we are.
However, in my reading LDs seem to have more of a focus on it. IMO they need marginal gains as more a core part of their results.
Seasoned political campaigners understand the importance of the boundaries. Any area that is divided up into electoral districts has to have lines drawn somewhere. Moving a village between this or that constituency can make all the difference to who wins and who loses. Sometimes changes are so significant that new constituencies are radically different to their predecessors.
https://www.libdemvoice.org/the-parliamentary-boundary-review-is-contintuing-54993.html
and
https://www.libdemvoice.org/boundary-review-wellplaced-after-months-of-preparation-51833.html
https://www.libdemvoice.org/parliamentary-boundary-review-gis-21012.html
https://www.google.com/search?q=libdemvoice+boundary+review&oq=libdemvoice+boundary+review&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i64.7436j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Good line. You're right.
They don't need to happen quickly and it is absolutely not the Government's job to mitigate it. It is the job of each individual firm concerned to look after their own interests, it is the job of each individual employee to look after their own interests, and it is the job of the state as much as possible to not get in the way of that.
If it doesn't happen quickly, it doesn't happen quickly. If they don't get the staff then abattoirs and farmers will simply lose clients and we will eat imported meat and honestly - why should we care about any of that?
The biggest losers from that are the abattoirs and farmers. So they're faced with the invidious choice: pay the going rate and get it done, or lose business.
Their mess, they need to clean it up.
Ultimately the efficient or needed business will be able to demand more money and pay more for staff, the least efficient businesses will die, and we'll have fewer jobs matching the number of employees and we'll have a new equilibrium.
Problem is your Leaver PM didn't sell any of that. Nor does he believe it. Nor is it his government's stated policy.
Apart from that we are in the Pure Land of Keajara.
Does he not?
According to reports, when the HGV association drivers came and said they were struggling to fill vacancies the line they got back was "have you tried paying more?" For which it seems the answer so far is: no, not by enough yet.
What do you think the stated policy is? Seems to me that people getting better pay is stated policy.
It seems strange to me to be arguing so strongly in favour of pay rises and against businesses as for almost all my life my free market economics has been in favour of business and against unions etc seeking to inflate wages past the market rate. Now though the shoe is on the other foot, its businesses seeking to deflate wages below the market rate.
Well what's sauce for the goose is good for the gander. I'm in favour of letting the market clear it out. I was when unions were the ones trying to distort the market, and its no different when its businesses that are.
I don't get the Pure Land of Keajara reference sorry.
In addition to the will, there must be the way. And in most of UK (or GB if you prefer) its been tough for Lib Dems to find a way, regardless of their degree of will, preparation, planning, researching, testifying.
As for Labour, in mid-1990s the former was sick & tired of opposition, sensing they were on the verge of power, but fearful of the possibility that they might yet again snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. So they - New and Old Labour - worked hard on ALL aspect of tactics & organization, including boundary reviews.
On the other hand, the Conservatives after years in power were beset both by fratricide AND ennui. Thus attention to the details re: constituency boundaries was something that tended to be slighted, ignored or mishandled. Not everywhere, but far more than a few instances.
At least that's my impression from afar.
He certainly didn't sell higher unit cost prices for basic goods.
Some Trade Union activity would be great right now. Then workers would get a proper pay rise.
Some wildcat strikes in transport would do the job much more swiftly than your "invisible hand".
In fact. You could view that as nimble responses to sclerotic market conditions.
The large numbers of eastern europeans who went home during covid can come back - they have settled or pre-settled status. But, many will have found another job, or moved on. So, in aggregate they aren’t “coming back”.
You say this brexit government was warned, but they could mot have predicted the acceleration caused by covid. Simply running HGV tests as normal during lockdown would have sufficed, probably.
(Off topic, every journalist in britain seems convinced HGV drivers “cannot come back” - a paragraph to this effect appears in every article. Only Samuel Tombs seems to have bothered to look up what settled and pre-settled status mean.)
Simply. We had full employment.
A net number of them went home.
So. We have a shortage.
So. We need more workers.
Or fewer jobs.
Or both.
https://twitter.com/StephenMcDonell/status/1443158297268396035