A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Looking from outside, American COVID discourse is wild. As far as I can tell, you have to be in the "make unvaxxed toddlers wear double N95 masks outside" or the "beat COVID the natural way with horse dewormer and bleach" camp, and it's entirely determined by the way you voted.
It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.
Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.
Winning Swindon might be hard if the BCE initial proposals go through, it's a godawful mess with parts of the Southern bit bolted on to East Wiltshire (formerly Devizes). As the southern bit has the smaller majority by far, that could be problematic, but maybe the remaining southern bit is the more Laboury bit.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about. I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic. Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.
Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.
Just a thought.
Yes, I grant that.
I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say
However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Sir Kir People's Vote shoulder-to-shoulder with Jeremy Corbyn 'who cares about antisemitism until I can get the top job' Royale.
One of the only men in British politics with less integrity than Boris himself.
While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first
That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better
"We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."
Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy
Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol
May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.
It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH
He needs to apologise for this, at the very least
I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM
Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
Proctor says that Starmer created the culture that allowed Operation Midland to begin. He created the environment that every 'victim' must be believed, which allowed a non-victim like Beech to claim to be a victim afterwards.
Sir Keir would doubtless argue that for every Beech there were hundreds of children who were never believed over the decades when the local priest was molesting them. And I speak as someone who was highly critical on here about the Watson witch hunt - it just may not be an easy stick to beat a former DPP with.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Not if "make brexit work" is going to be a slogan.
On boundary changes, I don't remember the process last time, but I see from their site that they will be publishing the comments to their initial proposals, then consulting on those comments, and only at that point will they work up changes to their initial proposals. Which is an interesting approach, and on the face of it makes sense to me, since I've certainly seen local issues where responses to consultations by drafters overshoot and make things worse and people prefer the initials.
Winning Swindon might be hard if the BCE initial proposals go through, it's a godawful mess with parts of the Southern bit bolted on to East Wiltshire (formerly Devizes). As the southern bit has the smaller majority by far, that could be problematic, but maybe the remaining southern bit is the more Laboury bit.
I think so, they are getting rid of all the villages in the outskirts, leaving just the town.
Yup. There are some seats rich in UKIP/BXP voters where Starmer needn't bother. Hartlepool is an obvious example, and there are others.
There are also seats which used to be about coal mining and are now about commuter estates- places like Bassetlaw. The Conservatives can lose these- especially if the housing market goes pearshaped. But the place has changed, even if the name hasn't. They're not Labour bankers any more, and that's not even blameable on Corbyn.
But there's still a decent swathe of classic marginals. But not in the places that people with an emotional attachment to Vintage Labour might recognise.
While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first
That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better
"We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."
Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy
Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol
May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.
It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH
He needs to apologise for this, at the very least
I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM
Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
Proctor says that Starmer created the culture that allowed Operation Midland to begin. He created the environment that every 'victim' must be believed, which allowed a non-victim like Beech to claim to be a victim afterwards.
Sir Keir would doubtless argue that for every Beech there were hundreds of children who were never believed over the decades when the local priest was molesting them. And I speak as someone who was highly critical on here about the Watson witch hunt - it just may not be an easy stick to beat a former DPP with.
And to be fair that's a very fair point.
The fact he served in Corbyn's Cabinet until the bitter end rather than stabbing Corbyn in the front and standing up for the victims of Labour's antisemitism is why I have nothing but contempt for the man.
He has shown time and again he will say anything, and work with anyone, then discard them at the drop of the hat, if it furthers his own career.
Only standing up against antisemitism once you've secured yourself a promotion is not strong.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Well, time will tell I guess.
Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Well, time will tell I guess.
Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?
It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes
This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.
People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive
This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first
That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better
"We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."
Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy
Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol
May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.
It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH
He needs to apologise for this, at the very least
I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM
Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
Proctor says that Starmer created the culture that allowed Operation Midland to begin. He created the environment that every 'victim' must be believed, which allowed a non-victim like Beech to claim to be a victim afterwards.
Sir Keir would doubtless argue that for every Beech there were hundreds of children who were never believed over the decades when the local priest was molesting them. And I speak as someone who was highly critical on here about the Watson witch hunt - it just may not be an easy stick to beat a former DPP with.
It is primarily a failing of the police. It is a failure to understand that an investigator should not be believing anything as a matter of course. They should investigate thoroughly and draw conclusions from facts found not from preconceived assumptions.
The failure regarding children was two-fold: not taking the allegations seriously and dismissing them out of hand and, second, not understanding the particular issues with taking evidence from a child.
Starmer as DPP did not direct the police. He may not have been as good as he could have been but it is highly unlikely that this will be an issue for him.
While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first
That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better
"We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."
Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy
Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol
May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.
It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH
He needs to apologise for this, at the very least
I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM
Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
Proctor says that Starmer created the culture that allowed Operation Midland to begin. He created the environment that every 'victim' must be believed, which allowed a non-victim like Beech to claim to be a victim afterwards.
Sir Keir would doubtless argue that for every Beech there were hundreds of children who were never believed over the decades when the local priest was molesting them. And I speak as someone who was highly critical on here about the Watson witch hunt - it just may not be an easy stick to beat a former DPP with.
It is primarily a failing of the police. It is a failure to understand that an investigator should not be believing anything as a matter of course. They should investigate thoroughly and draw conclusions from facts found not from preconceived assumptions.
The failure regarding children was two-fold: not taking the allegations seriously and dismissing them out of hand and, second, not understanding the particular issues with taking evidence from a child.
Starmer as DPP did not direct the police. He may not have been as good as he could have been but it is highly unlikely that this will be an issue for him.
I didn't know what was worse about that part of the Henriques report - that they had ever thought it acceptable that an investigator should act so, or that it quoted several senior people vigorously defending that approach even then.
I've not yet read his 2020 book From Crime to Crime yet, but I do have it, and should prove interesting.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Well, time will tell I guess.
Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?
It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes
This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.
People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive
This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
And Labour went from 40% in the 2017 GE, to 32% in 2019 because of it
Then he took over as leader and they scored their worst vote shares ever in the constituency By Elections of Hartlepool, Chesham & Amersham and Batley & Spen
So yesterday Starmer was a no-hoper heading for certain defeat. Last week he wasn't going to survive this Conference as leader. Tonight he is a man who was in cahoots with paedophile witch hunts. Set guidelines of such force and power that neither the Tory PM, nor his successor could change in a full 12 months. And spent 4 years plotting a coup. I reckon Sir Keir will consider job well done in putting the wind up Tories. He's gone from pathetic, weak incompetent Labour leader. To the only other one Tories have, devil incarnate, in just one speech
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Well, time will tell I guess.
Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?
It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes
This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.
People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive
This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
And Labour went from 40% in the 2017 GE, to 32% in 2019 because of it
Then he took over as leader and they scored their worst vote shares ever in the constituency By Elections of Hartlepool, Chesham & Amersham and Batley & Spen
Unsurprisingly, the Labourite Remoaners suddenly want to move on and "Brexit is all in the past"
LOL
No, it isn't, not if you tried to render British democracy meaningless, by making 17.4 million votes utterly worthless
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Well, time will tell I guess.
Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?
It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes
This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.
People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive
This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
He wasn't sending people into Congress to overturn the results, but he went as far as you could without being completely cuckoo for Coco Pops.
It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.
Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.
BP on Eastern Avenue in Ilford actually had a tanker present, but with a massive queue this afternoon. Tesco Ilford North was closed, as was Shell near Chigwell.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Well, time will tell I guess.
Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?
It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes
This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.
People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive
This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
And Labour went from 40% in the 2017 GE, to 32% in 2019 because of it
Then he took over as leader and they scored their worst vote shares ever in the constituency By Elections of Hartlepool, Chesham & Amersham and Batley & Spen
Unsurprisingly, the Labourite Remoaners suddenly want to move on and "Brexit is all in the past"
LOL
No, it isn't, not if you tried to render British democracy meaningless, by making 17.4 million votes utterly worthless
Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.
Yes. Obviously worried.
Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.
Does anyone know where I can find out about petrol availability on the M6 and M1?
I don't sorry but from conversations earlier in the week its as close to impossible for them to run out of availability as is imaginable - and since the overwhelming majority of stations have fuel now, there's no real chance they'll be out.
Apparently they're normally connected to major storage, plus they're prioritised as first priority for refuelling to prevent them running out. Its part of why its so expensive there.
It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.
Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.
The Home Counties and London seem to be panic buying central from all reports. Same with the bog roll. Maybe they just aren't as used to simply not having stuff?
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Well, time will tell I guess.
Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?
It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes
This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.
People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive
This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
He wasn't sending people into Congress to overturn the results, but he went as far as you could without being completely cuckoo for Coco Pops.
The analogy with Trump at the Capitol is spookily accurate, it's just that the whole People's Vote thing happened in decent, gentlemanly old Britain, and it was done by nice posh people in Chiswick and Islington and Cambridge, not lunatic Q_Anoners from Kentucky in buffalo horn hats.
Yet the intention was exactly the same. Overturn a democratic vote, because you don't like it. And Starmer was a central part of it
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Well, time will tell I guess.
Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?
It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes
This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.
People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive
This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
And Labour went from 40% in the 2017 GE, to 32% in 2019 because of it
Then he took over as leader and they scored their worst vote shares ever in the constituency By Elections of Hartlepool, Chesham & Amersham and Batley & Spen
Unsurprisingly, the Labourite Remoaners suddenly want to move on and "Brexit is all in the past"
LOL
No, it isn't, not if you tried to render British democracy meaningless, by making 17.4 million votes utterly worthless
Make Brexit Work
They won (for what it was worth), they should get over it.
It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.
Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.
The Home Counties and London seem to be panic buying central from all reports. Same with the bog roll. Maybe they just aren't as used to simply not having stuff?
Maybe there's more easily panicked Remoaners there ready to rush out and panic buy 😉
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about. I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic. Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.
Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.
Just a thought.
Yes, I grant that.
I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say
However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Well, time will tell I guess.
Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?
It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes
This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.
People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive
This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
And Labour went from 40% in the 2017 GE, to 32% in 2019 because of it
Then he took over as leader and they scored their worst vote shares ever in the constituency By Elections of Hartlepool, Chesham & Amersham and Batley & Spen
Unsurprisingly, the Labourite Remoaners suddenly want to move on and "Brexit is all in the past"
LOL
No, it isn't, not if you tried to render British democracy meaningless, by making 17.4 million votes utterly worthless
Make Brexit Work
They won (for what it was worth), they should get over it.
Well Brexit isn’t working at the moment, someone needs to get a grip.
Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.
Yes. Obviously worried.
Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about. I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic. Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.
Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.
Just a thought.
Yes, I grant that.
I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say
However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
Something's upset you, Leon. Ran out of petrol?....
Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.
Yes. Obviously worried.
Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.
The referendum was no better than an opinion poll? That's one way to look at it.
Does anyone know where I can find out about petrol availability on the M6 and M1?
I don't sorry but from conversations earlier in the week its as close to impossible for them to run out of availability as is imaginable - and since the overwhelming majority of stations have fuel now, there's no real chance they'll be out.
Apparently they're normally connected to major storage, plus they're prioritised as first priority for refuelling to prevent them running out. Its part of why its so expensive there.
Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.
Yes. Obviously worried.
Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Well, time will tell I guess.
Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?
It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes
This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.
People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive
This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
And Labour went from 40% in the 2017 GE, to 32% in 2019 because of it
Then he took over as leader and they scored their worst vote shares ever in the constituency By Elections of Hartlepool, Chesham & Amersham and Batley & Spen
Unsurprisingly, the Labourite Remoaners suddenly want to move on and "Brexit is all in the past"
LOL
No, it isn't, not if you tried to render British democracy meaningless, by making 17.4 million votes utterly worthless
A large part of the raeason the Tories won so easily in 2019 was that I think even plenty of remainers (Well me anyway) thought it was very important the leave mandate was honoured. Only the Conservatives were offering that in '19. I'm not going to continue to vote for them for that reason, but plenty of leavers will now find the Tories the default choice. Part of the reason heavy leave former heartlands aren't going back Labour any time soon.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about. I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic. Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.
Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.
Just a thought.
Yes, I grant that.
I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say
However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.
Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.
BP on Eastern Avenue in Ilford actually had a tanker present, but with a massive queue this afternoon. Tesco Ilford North was closed, as was Shell near Chigwell.
BP Dinnington and Killamarsh were out, ASDA Harworth had fuel this evening - no queues albeit an automated £30 limit.
Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.
Yes. Obviously worried.
Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.
I mean, my God. The state of this comment
These extremists have so convinced themselves that they're right and that the other side were duped/idiots/fools that they don't stop to think for a second "are we the baddies"?
It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.
Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.
Not true to say that Yorkshire unaffected. Certainly West Yorkshire.
Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.
Yes. Obviously worried.
Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.
The referendum was no better than an opinion poll? That's one way to look at it.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Well, time will tell I guess.
Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?
It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes
This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.
People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive
This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
He wasn't sending people into Congress to overturn the results, but he went as far as you could without being completely cuckoo for Coco Pops.
The analogy with Trump at the Capitol is spookily accurate, it's just that the whole People's Vote thing happened in decent, gentlemanly old Britain, and it was done by nice posh people in Chiswick and Islington and Cambridge, not lunatic Q_Anoners from Kentucky in buffalo horn hats.
Yet the intention was exactly the same. Overturn a democratic vote, because you don't like it. And Starmer was a central part of it
Lol. "Overturn a democratic vote" with a, er... democratic vote! How undemocratic.
Seem very keen on 'this FTA says what we say it does', rather than what it actually says. EuCo following French line. The claim about 'exhaustive evidence' seems to be not very credible. Hope that Jersey has sufficient enforcement resources in place.
Quite vituperative stuff on France 24, all about how retaliation could be done via cutting Electricity connections, blocking traffic on the Chunnel, and by using international students as leverage, and how the British/Jersey move is playing to the Tory Party conference.
Were this over here, the BBC would be pointing out that the demands are contrary to the FTA and any reaction has to go through the agreed processes.
French Ministerial statement:
We understand and share the frustration of our fishermen. We cannot cooperate in confidence with the UK until the deal is honored. We will not hesitate to take retaliatory action, collectively. " EU Statement:
‘International students’?
Wtf does that mean? They will stop French students coming to the Uk? Or vice versa?
And blocking the channel?? That comes close to actual hostility
The Times reports today that macron is apparently in a ‘dark rage’. He has been publicly and globally humiliated by AUKUS. There must be a risk he will do something actively stupid
And here is the French Maritime Affairs Minister Annick Girardin threatening students:
The French maritime minister, Annick Girardin, said France and the EU would work on potential responses over the next two weeks unless the UK was able to resolve the dispute quickly.
Paris is considering measures that would involve energy and trade, as well as train connections and British students living in France, she said after a meeting with fishing representatives. She called on other European countries to show solidarity “because what France is going through today, some others will also go through it”.
The French government spokesman, Gabriel Attal, said the decisions by the UK and Jersey authorities were “totally unacceptable and inadmissible” and “contravene the agreement that was signed in the framework of Brexit”.
Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.
Yes. Obviously worried.
Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.
The referendum was no better than an opinion poll? That's one way to look at it.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about. I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic. Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.
Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.
Just a thought.
Yes, I grant that.
I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say
However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
No I was being polite ! I accept that a lot in here don’t like Starmer but I find the arguments against him mere fluff when compared to what can be laid at the door of the clown in no 10.
Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.
Yes. Obviously worried.
Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.
The referendum was no better than an opinion poll? That's one way to look at it.
It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.
Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.
The Home Counties and London seem to be panic buying central from all reports. Same with the bog roll. Maybe they just aren't as used to simply not having stuff?
I had a theory that the panic buying in March 2020 was worse in London because they have smaller homes because of the higher property prices and east out more. The combination meaning that they have less food in their homes normally compared to the rest of the country.
As to car fuel I wonder if because of the larger public transport network that cars are used less even by car owners in London. Leading to a relatively smaller filling station network and hence a quicker collapse.
Or maybe areas with a higher population density are more susceptible to panic buying group think.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Well, time will tell I guess.
Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?
It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes
This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.
People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive
This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
He wasn't sending people into Congress to overturn the results, but he went as far as you could without being completely cuckoo for Coco Pops.
The analogy with Trump at the Capitol is spookily accurate, it's just that the whole People's Vote thing happened in decent, gentlemanly old Britain, and it was done by nice posh people in Chiswick and Islington and Cambridge, not lunatic Q_Anoners from Kentucky in buffalo horn hats.
Yet the intention was exactly the same. Overturn a democratic vote, because you don't like it. And Starmer was a central part of it
Lol. "Overturn a democratic vote" with a, er... democratic vote! How undemocratic.
So if Trumpites had succeeded at the Capitol, and bullied Congress and the SCOTUS into ignoring the 2020 prez election and re-running that election because the first one was "fraudulent" and "the public was misinformed", you'd have been OK with that?
Because this is what you are saying, in effect.
Please. Step back. Look at yourself. It is quite spectacularly incredible
Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.
Yes. Obviously worried.
Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.
The referendum was no better than an opinion poll? That's one way to look at it.
yes, thats why I said it.
"The choice is in your hands ... whatever your decision, I will do my best to deliver it"
Yes that's what people say about opinion polls. Donnez moi un break. 🤦♂️
Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.
Yes. Obviously worried.
Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.
I mean, my God. The state of this comment
I cannot say I agree with daveyboy (and I don't know why 'advisory only' was in quotes as while true in a legal sense that doesn't mean a referendum has no weight behind it- it very much did), but the idea that a sovereign parliament seeking not to follow through on the Brexit vote, and ultimately would face the consequences of that at any election as indeed happened, as being analagous to instigating an armed mob to storm a legislature, I think takes an even wilder imagination.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about. I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic. Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.
Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.
Just a thought.
Yes, I grant that.
I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say
However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
No I was being polite ! I accept that a lot in here don’t like Starmer but I find the arguments against him mere fluff when compared to what can be laid at the door of the clown in no 10.
Agreed. But I think tonight's comments from the PB right-wingers is just them getting a bit nervous that Starmer's speech seems to have gone down ok.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.
Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.
The Home Counties and London seem to be panic buying central from all reports. Same with the bog roll. Maybe they just aren't as used to simply not having stuff?
I had a theory that the panic buying in March 2020 was worse in London because they have smaller homes because of the higher property prices and east out more. The combination meaning that they have less food in their homes normally compared to the rest of the country.
As to car fuel I wonder if because of the larger public transport network that cars are used less even by car owners in London. Leading to a relatively smaller filling station network and hence a quicker collapse.
Or maybe areas with a higher population density are more susceptible to panic buying group think.
Dunno. Curious though. We have a filling station in our village. There is another 3 miles away one way. 3 more in the town 12 miles away in the other. So not overloaded. And barely any public transport to speak of.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
There were some moments where the obligatory applause felt, well, obligatory (it was a long speech after all, with many pause for applause moments), but giving he leader a chance to lecture petulant hecklers to the enthusiastic delight of the crowd made him look popular and strong, and them look like fools.
Seem very keen on 'this FTA says what we say it does', rather than what it actually says. EuCo following French line. The claim about 'exhaustive evidence' seems to be not very credible. Hope that Jersey has sufficient enforcement resources in place.
Quite vituperative stuff on France 24, all about how retaliation could be done via cutting Electricity connections, blocking traffic on the Chunnel, and by using international students as leverage, and how the British/Jersey move is playing to the Tory Party conference.
Were this over here, the BBC would be pointing out that the demands are contrary to the FTA and any reaction has to go through the agreed processes.
French Ministerial statement:
We understand and share the frustration of our fishermen. We cannot cooperate in confidence with the UK until the deal is honored. We will not hesitate to take retaliatory action, collectively. " EU Statement:
‘International students’?
Wtf does that mean? They will stop French students coming to the Uk? Or vice versa?
And blocking the channel?? That comes close to actual hostility
The Times reports today that macron is apparently in a ‘dark rage’. He has been publicly and globally humiliated by AUKUS. There must be a risk he will do something actively stupid
And here is the French Maritime Affairs Minister Annick Girardin threatening students:
The French maritime minister, Annick Girardin, said France and the EU would work on potential responses over the next two weeks unless the UK was able to resolve the dispute quickly.
Paris is considering measures that would involve energy and trade, as well as train connections and British students living in France, she said after a meeting with fishing representatives. She called on other European countries to show solidarity “because what France is going through today, some others will also go through it”.
The French government spokesman, Gabriel Attal, said the decisions by the UK and Jersey authorities were “totally unacceptable and inadmissible” and “contravene the agreement that was signed in the framework of Brexit”.
Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.
Yes. Obviously worried.
Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.
I mean, my God. The state of this comment
I cannot say I agree with daveyboy (and I don't know why 'advisory only' was in quotes as while true in a legal sense that doesn't mean a referendum has no weight behind it), but the idea that a sovereign parliament seeking not to follow through on the Brexit vote, and ultimately would face the consequences of that at any election as indeed happened, as being analagous to instigating an armed mob to storm a legislature, I think takes an even wilder imagination.
Trump tried to get an election - a nationwide vote - overturned because it was allegedly "rigged". That is exactly what Remoaners tried to do to Brexit, only in more polite and British ways
As I say, consider the Scottish analogy, and imagine if some government - in Holyrood or Westminster - had tried to overturn a YES vote, and get it re-run with "more information", while ignoring the first vote for independence. Here the argument ends
There were some moments where the obligatory applause felt, well, obligatory (it was a long speech after all, with many pause for applause moments), but giving he leader a chance to lecture petulant hecklers to the enthusiastic delight of the crowd made him look popular and strong, and them look like fools.
The heckler who chose to heckle him while he was telling a story about his ill mother hooked up to tubes being looked after by the NHS was especially stupid.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about. I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic. Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.
Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.
Just a thought.
Yes, I grant that.
I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say
However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
I think Comrade Leon is more Spin the Bottle than Moral Compass this evening.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about. I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic. Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.
Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.
Just a thought.
Yes, I grant that.
I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say
However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
I think Comrade Leon is more Spin the Bottle than Moral Compass this evening.
I am not a stranger to intoxication. But on this occasion you find me essentially sober, sorry
Seem very keen on 'this FTA says what we say it does', rather than what it actually says. EuCo following French line. The claim about 'exhaustive evidence' seems to be not very credible. Hope that Jersey has sufficient enforcement resources in place.
Quite vituperative stuff on France 24, all about how retaliation could be done via cutting Electricity connections, blocking traffic on the Chunnel, and by using international students as leverage, and how the British/Jersey move is playing to the Tory Party conference.
Were this over here, the BBC would be pointing out that the demands are contrary to the FTA and any reaction has to go through the agreed processes.
French Ministerial statement:
We understand and share the frustration of our fishermen. We cannot cooperate in confidence with the UK until the deal is honored. We will not hesitate to take retaliatory action, collectively. " EU Statement:
‘International students’?
Wtf does that mean? They will stop French students coming to the Uk? Or vice versa?
And blocking the channel?? That comes close to actual hostility
The Times reports today that macron is apparently in a ‘dark rage’. He has been publicly and globally humiliated by AUKUS. There must be a risk he will do something actively stupid
And here is the French Maritime Affairs Minister Annick Girardin threatening students:
The French maritime minister, Annick Girardin, said France and the EU would work on potential responses over the next two weeks unless the UK was able to resolve the dispute quickly.
Paris is considering measures that would involve energy and trade, as well as train connections and British students living in France, she said after a meeting with fishing representatives. She called on other European countries to show solidarity “because what France is going through today, some others will also go through it”.
The French government spokesman, Gabriel Attal, said the decisions by the UK and Jersey authorities were “totally unacceptable and inadmissible” and “contravene the agreement that was signed in the framework of Brexit”.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
The problem is a lack of butchers to work in abattoirs. Not workers on farms. ASIUI.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.
Yes. Obviously worried.
Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.
I mean, my God. The state of this comment
I cannot say I agree with daveyboy (and I don't know why 'advisory only' was in quotes as while true in a legal sense that doesn't mean a referendum has no weight behind it), but the idea that a sovereign parliament seeking not to follow through on the Brexit vote, and ultimately would face the consequences of that at any election as indeed happened, as being analagous to instigating an armed mob to storm a legislature, I think takes an even wilder imagination.
Trump tried to get an election - a nationwide vote - overturned because it was allegedly "rigged". That is exactly what Remoaners tried to do to Brexit, only in more polite and British ways
As I say, consider the Scottish analogy, and imagine if some government - in Holyrood or Westminster - had tried to overturn a YES vote, and get it re-run with "more information", while ignoring the first vote for independence. Here the argument ends
He engaged in spurious legal challenges and then instigated a mob based on fantasies, entreating those in Congress such as Pence to ignore their legal duty. And given his wishes to control the election outcomes through those who could certify them, people would not have gotten another chance had he succeeded.
However wrong one may think the attempt to not enact the Brexit outcome was, Parliament definitely had the legal right to not do it because while calling the referendum vote an opinion poll is irresponsibly belittling and unhelpful, it isn't the case that they were acting against some law or constitution in their actions. They should have gone with a compromise Brexit, but instead chanced their arm - they were legally able to, where Trump was not legally able to given what he was seeking, and the big difference is that if they had succeeded, an election would have come, and they would have been accountable for their decision. Indeed, the voters punished them for not getting Brexit done.
I am sure if there is a Yes vote for Sindy there will precisely be those arguments played out again.
Granted there were also many spurious Brexit legal challenges.
But bottom line while the remainer clique in parliament may morally outrage, it was akin to an insurrection, and in the end that is what Trump's actions amounted to. If people want to say they are in the same category, fine, whatever, but they are not the same. SImply calling it a nationwide vote doesn't make it the same as a presidential vote, they were not the same type of thing.
I am prone to focus a bit much on process, but the different types of vote, law and powers of those involved in parliamentary sovereignty, do make a difference on it.
They could do what they did - the question was whether they should have, politically and morally. He neither could nor should.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.
The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.
Time to move on.
Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar
Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Well, time will tell I guess.
Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?
It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes
This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.
People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive
This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
He wasn't sending people into Congress to overturn the results, but he went as far as you could without being completely cuckoo for Coco Pops.
The analogy with Trump at the Capitol is spookily accurate, it's just that the whole People's Vote thing happened in decent, gentlemanly old Britain, and it was done by nice posh people in Chiswick and Islington and Cambridge, not lunatic Q_Anoners from Kentucky in buffalo horn hats.
Yet the intention was exactly the same. Overturn a democratic vote, because you don't like it. And Starmer was a central part of it
Lol. "Overturn a democratic vote" with a, er... democratic vote! How undemocratic.
So if Trumpites had succeeded at the Capitol, and bullied Congress and the SCOTUS into ignoring the 2020 prez election and re-running that election because the first one was "fraudulent" and "the public was misinformed", you'd have been OK with that?
Because this is what you are saying, in effect.
Please. Step back. Look at yourself. It is quite spectacularly incredible
I think you'll find you are in a vanishingly small minority if you think the calls for a 2nd referendum were the equivalent of the storming of the Capitol.
A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen
Wanker
There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about. I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic. Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.
Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.
Just a thought.
Yes, I grant that.
I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say
However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
I think Comrade Leon is more Spin the Bottle than Moral Compass this evening.
I am not a stranger to intoxication. But on this occasion you find me essentially sober, sorry
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.
Yes. Obviously worried.
Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.
I mean, my God. The state of this comment
I cannot say I agree with daveyboy (and I don't know why 'advisory only' was in quotes as while true in a legal sense that doesn't mean a referendum has no weight behind it), but the idea that a sovereign parliament seeking not to follow through on the Brexit vote, and ultimately would face the consequences of that at any election as indeed happened, as being analagous to instigating an armed mob to storm a legislature, I think takes an even wilder imagination.
Trump tried to get an election - a nationwide vote - overturned because it was allegedly "rigged". That is exactly what Remoaners tried to do to Brexit, only in more polite and British ways
As I say, consider the Scottish analogy, and imagine if some government - in Holyrood or Westminster - had tried to overturn a YES vote, and get it re-run with "more information", while ignoring the first vote for independence. Here the argument ends
He engaged in spurious legal challenges and then instigated a mob based on fantasies, entreating those in Congress such as Pence to ignore their legal duty. And given his wishes to control the election outcomes through those who could certify them, people would not have gotten another chance had he succeeded.
However wrong one may think the attempt to not enact the Brexit outcome was, Parliament definitely had the legal right to not do it because while calling the referendum vote an opinion poll is irresponsibly belittling and unhelpful, it isn't the case that they were acting against some law or constitution in their actions. They should have gone with a compromise Brexit, but instead chanced their arm - they were legally able to, where Trump was not legally able to given what he was seeking, and the big difference is that if they had succeeded, an election would have come, and they would have been accountable for their decision. Indeed, the voters punished them for not getting Brexit done.
I am sure if there is a Yes vote for Sindy there will precisely be those arguments played out again.
Granted there were also many spurious Brexit legal challenges.
But bottom line while the remainer clique in parliament may morally outrage, it was akin to an insurrection, and in the end that is what Trump's actions amounted to. If people want to say they are in the same category, fine, whatever, but they are not the same. SImply calling it a nationwide vote doesn't make it the same as a presidential vote, they were not the same type of thing.
I am prone to focus a bit much on process, but the different types of vote, law and powers of those involved in parliamentary sovereignty, do make a difference on it.
They could do what they did - the question was whether they should have, politically and morally. He neither could nor should.
Christ, what a load of pointless waffle. I'm right, but you find it uncomfortable
Seem very keen on 'this FTA says what we say it does', rather than what it actually says. EuCo following French line. The claim about 'exhaustive evidence' seems to be not very credible. Hope that Jersey has sufficient enforcement resources in place.
Quite vituperative stuff on France 24, all about how retaliation could be done via cutting Electricity connections, blocking traffic on the Chunnel, and by using international students as leverage, and how the British/Jersey move is playing to the Tory Party conference.
Were this over here, the BBC would be pointing out that the demands are contrary to the FTA and any reaction has to go through the agreed processes.
French Ministerial statement:
We understand and share the frustration of our fishermen. We cannot cooperate in confidence with the UK until the deal is honored. We will not hesitate to take retaliatory action, collectively. " EU Statement:
‘International students’?
Wtf does that mean? They will stop French students coming to the Uk? Or vice versa?
And blocking the channel?? That comes close to actual hostility
The Times reports today that macron is apparently in a ‘dark rage’. He has been publicly and globally humiliated by AUKUS. There must be a risk he will do something actively stupid
And here is the French Maritime Affairs Minister Annick Girardin threatening students:
The French maritime minister, Annick Girardin, said France and the EU would work on potential responses over the next two weeks unless the UK was able to resolve the dispute quickly.
Paris is considering measures that would involve energy and trade, as well as train connections and British students living in France, she said after a meeting with fishing representatives. She called on other European countries to show solidarity “because what France is going through today, some others will also go through it”.
The French government spokesman, Gabriel Attal, said the decisions by the UK and Jersey authorities were “totally unacceptable and inadmissible” and “contravene the agreement that was signed in the framework of Brexit”.
The French Ministerial Morons need to read the agreement they signed...
French vanity and belligerence is one of the things most likely to fracture the EU in the coming years.
I'm not so sure. They are the worst kind of bully - ingratiating to those they need, like Germany, but vicious when they can get away with it.
And it's not as if their vanity and belligerence are exactly new traits.
I think their vision of what the EU can do for them is starting to reach the end of the road though. There is a fundamental contradiction that hasn't yet been resolved.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
The problem is a lack of butchers to work in abattoirs. Not workers on farms. ASIUI.
According to Phil, pay someone £100k and they magically have the skills to kill and butcher any animal. Just like that.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
Some jobs aren’t appealing to Brits even if you give much better wages . You seem to think that wages alone could tempt Brits to do certain jobs .
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
They probably just want more subsidies. That's usually the reason farmers whine about anything.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
The problem is a lack of butchers to work in abattoirs. Not workers on farms. ASIUI.
According to Phil, pay someone £100k and they magically have the skills to kill and butcher any animal. Just like that.
And in compliance with all necessary human and animal health and safety regulations as well.
Seem very keen on 'this FTA says what we say it does', rather than what it actually says. EuCo following French line. The claim about 'exhaustive evidence' seems to be not very credible. Hope that Jersey has sufficient enforcement resources in place.
Quite vituperative stuff on France 24, all about how retaliation could be done via cutting Electricity connections, blocking traffic on the Chunnel, and by using international students as leverage, and how the British/Jersey move is playing to the Tory Party conference.
Were this over here, the BBC would be pointing out that the demands are contrary to the FTA and any reaction has to go through the agreed processes.
French Ministerial statement:
We understand and share the frustration of our fishermen. We cannot cooperate in confidence with the UK until the deal is honored. We will not hesitate to take retaliatory action, collectively. " EU Statement:
‘International students’?
Wtf does that mean? They will stop French students coming to the Uk? Or vice versa?
And blocking the channel?? That comes close to actual hostility
The Times reports today that macron is apparently in a ‘dark rage’. He has been publicly and globally humiliated by AUKUS. There must be a risk he will do something actively stupid
And here is the French Maritime Affairs Minister Annick Girardin threatening students:
The French maritime minister, Annick Girardin, said France and the EU would work on potential responses over the next two weeks unless the UK was able to resolve the dispute quickly.
Paris is considering measures that would involve energy and trade, as well as train connections and British students living in France, she said after a meeting with fishing representatives. She called on other European countries to show solidarity “because what France is going through today, some others will also go through it”.
The French government spokesman, Gabriel Attal, said the decisions by the UK and Jersey authorities were “totally unacceptable and inadmissible” and “contravene the agreement that was signed in the framework of Brexit”.
The French Ministerial Morons need to read the agreement they signed...
French vanity and belligerence is one of the things most likely to fracture the EU in the coming years.
I'm not so sure. They are the worst kind of bully - ingratiating to those they need, like Germany, but vicious when they can get away with it.
And it's not as if their vanity and belligerence are exactly new traits.
I think their vision of what the EU can do for them is starting to reach the end of the road though. There is a fundamental contradiction that hasn't yet been resolved.
Yes, AUKUS is forcing the EU to towards a tremendous decision. Does the EU become a proper military entity, capable of self-defence - and rebuffing Putin? Or does it continue to rely on the US and the Anglophone Alliance?
France clearly wants the former, but it wants it on French terms, with French arms and French leadership
Eastern Europe is not interested in this, and cleaves to America, thinking France too selfish (and too weak, basically)
Germany? Italy? Who knows. But soon they will all have to decide
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
It's fundamentally very simple. In Jan 2020 we had full employment. Then Covid meant a lot of foreigners went home. Brexit means they haven't come back. So. We have no workers. Not in owt requiring skills that immigrants used to do. Pay rises work for low skilled roles. They are a very good thing, and long overdue. But they don't give folk skills they don't have.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
The problem is a lack of butchers to work in abattoirs. Not workers on farms. ASIUI.
And what salary are the abattoirs offering to the butchers?
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
The why is simple, it’s another sector where Eastern Europeans took over things (because it’s frankly unpleasant, low paid work) and they’ve gone home.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
Some jobs aren’t appealing to Brits even if you give much better wages . You seem to think that wages alone could tempt Brits to do certain jobs .
Yes. Yes I do. At the right price any job will be filled..
Madam, would you sleep with me for a million pounds? My goodness. Well, I'd certainly think about it. Would you sleep with me for a pound? Certainly not! What kind of woman do you think I am?! Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
The problem is a lack of butchers to work in abattoirs. Not workers on farms. ASIUI.
And what salary are the abattoirs offering to the butchers?
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
The problem is a lack of butchers to work in abattoirs. Not workers on farms. ASIUI.
Yes. Industrial farms work on a just in time efficiency-first model, churning out more animals as fast as they can in as small an area as possible and shipping the last lot off for slaughter to clear the space. If the slaughterhouse says sorry, we can't take them, the farmer has more animals than he can house. He doesn't have an alternative route to market beyond a trivial amount at a local farm shop, so...
As you'd expect me to say, an alternative model would be less fragile and intensive, with meat more expensive but raised in a better and less frenetic way. But you'd need to link that to subsidies for non-meat alternatives to avoid poorer families struggling with higher food bills.
Sky News in Bassetlaw - “the kind of place Starmer must win back”
I don’t think that’s right.
It's not. Labour target 159, the mining link is long gone here.
So who lives there now? I suspect it is classic swing territory as young families, commuters and Amazon warehouse workers for nearby Ashfield and Mansfield outnumber the ex miners.
Sounds like exactly where Labour should be trying to turn the tide.
Just full of normal people tbh - but the constituency overwhelmingly voted to leave the EU. That makes it very hard for Labour. As I said Milton Keynes would probably be a better place to gauge his speech as Starmer might be able to form a Gov't if he takes both of those. He'll be at about 400 seats if he takes Bassetlaw and Dudley North.
Officially, Bassetlaw is somewhat more prosperous than either Ashfield or Mansfield.
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
The problem is a lack of butchers to work in abattoirs. Not workers on farms. ASIUI.
And what salary are the abattoirs offering to the butchers?
It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.
Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.
I wonder if areas that voted Remain are more panicky.
Perhaps they were the only ones who believed their own propaganda?
Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
There's over 32m currently employed.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
It is capacity at abattoirs which is the issue not farm workers. There are not enough butchers and workers at abattoirs to kill the pigs so that they can be sold to the market.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
I'll have a guess that there aren't enough workers at the abattoirs because the pay and conditions aren't good enough.
I'll have another guess that the 'solution' being demanded is to get some migrants who will accept being exploited by said crap pay and conditions. Only for said migrants to then leave as soon as possible for jobs which have better pay and conditions.
Do you see that this might be a circular problem which only gets resolved when better pay and conditions are offered by those businesses who are continually saying that people aren't willing to do the job ?
Similarly when some business whines that it cannot get workers for £9ph I'd like it revealed what sort of housing a worker getting £9ph can afford in that location.
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Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
Oliver Johnson
@BristOliver
Looking from outside, American COVID discourse is wild. As far as I can tell, you have to be in the "make unvaxxed toddlers wear double N95 masks outside" or the "beat COVID the natural way with horse dewormer and bleach" camp, and it's entirely determined by the way you voted.
Is there any data on problems per area ?
It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.
Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.
I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say
However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
1) Number of 12-15s being vaccinated
2) Number of booster vaccinations taking place
Neither are reported on the various government sites.
One of the only men in British politics with less integrity than Boris himself.
There are also seats which used to be about coal mining and are now about commuter estates- places like Bassetlaw. The Conservatives can lose these- especially if the housing market goes pearshaped. But the place has changed, even if the name hasn't. They're not Labour bankers any more, and that's not even blameable on Corbyn.
But there's still a decent swathe of classic marginals. But not in the places that people with an emotional attachment to Vintage Labour might recognise.
The fact he served in Corbyn's Cabinet until the bitter end rather than stabbing Corbyn in the front and standing up for the victims of Labour's antisemitism is why I have nothing but contempt for the man.
He has shown time and again he will say anything, and work with anyone, then discard them at the drop of the hat, if it furthers his own career.
Only standing up against antisemitism once you've secured yourself a promotion is not strong.
Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes
This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.
People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive
This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
It is primarily a failing of the police. It is a failure to understand that an investigator should not be believing anything as a matter of course. They should investigate thoroughly and draw conclusions from facts found not from preconceived assumptions.
The failure regarding children was two-fold: not taking the allegations seriously and dismissing them out of hand and, second, not understanding the particular issues with taking evidence from a child.
Starmer as DPP did not direct the police. He may not have been as good as he could have been but it is highly unlikely that this will be an issue for him.
I've not yet read his 2020 book From Crime to Crime yet, but I do have it, and should prove interesting.
Then he took over as leader and they scored their worst vote shares ever in the constituency By Elections of Hartlepool, Chesham & Amersham and Batley & Spen
Tonight he is a man who was in cahoots with paedophile witch hunts. Set guidelines of such force and power that neither the Tory PM, nor his successor could change in a full 12 months.
And spent 4 years plotting a coup.
I reckon Sir Keir will consider job well done in putting the wind up Tories.
He's gone from pathetic, weak incompetent Labour leader.
To the only other one Tories have, devil incarnate, in just one speech
LOL
No, it isn't, not if you tried to render British democracy meaningless, by making 17.4 million votes utterly worthless
Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.
Apparently they're normally connected to major storage, plus they're prioritised as first priority for refuelling to prevent them running out. Its part of why its so expensive there.
Maybe they just aren't as used to simply not having stuff?
Yet the intention was exactly the same. Overturn a democratic vote, because you don't like it. And Starmer was a central part of it
There are Mao, Stalin and Hitler comparisons going begging.
I shall wait for Philip's like shall I?
Here is that one:
Jean-Pierre Pont, a lawmaker from the northern French port of Boulogne, said fishermen could block trucks from boarding Channel Tunnel trains headed to Britain.
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210929-jersey-grants-95-licences-to-french-trawlers-but-turns-down-75
And here is the French Maritime Affairs Minister Annick Girardin threatening students:
The French maritime minister, Annick Girardin, said France and the EU would work on potential responses over the next two weeks unless the UK was able to resolve the dispute quickly.
Paris is considering measures that would involve energy and trade, as well as train connections and British students living in France, she said after a meeting with fishing representatives. She called on other European countries to show solidarity “because what France is going through today, some others will also go through it”.
The French government spokesman, Gabriel Attal, said the decisions by the UK and Jersey authorities were “totally unacceptable and inadmissible” and “contravene the agreement that was signed in the framework of Brexit”.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/29/fresh-row-between-uk-and-france-over-jersey-fishing-rights
The French Ministerial Morons need to read the agreement they signed...
"The choice is in your hands ... whatever your decision, I will do my best to deliver it"
Yes that's what people say about opinion polls. Donnez moi un break. 🤦♂️
The Labour leader’s team argue that the taunts sent a clear message: Keir Starmer is not Jeremy Corbyn and the party has changed.
By Ailbhe Rea"
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/labour/2021/09/why-keir-starmer-believes-that-the-heckles-during-his-labour-conference-speech-were-helpful
As to car fuel I wonder if because of the larger public transport network that cars are used less even by car owners in London. Leading to a relatively smaller filling station network and hence a quicker collapse.
Or maybe areas with a higher population density are more susceptible to panic buying group think.
Because this is what you are saying, in effect.
Please. Step back. Look at yourself. It is quite spectacularly incredible
blah blah blah?
3 more in the town 12 miles away in the other. So not overloaded. And barely any public transport to speak of.
Yet, no issues whatsoever.
There were some moments where the obligatory applause felt, well, obligatory (it was a long speech after all, with many pause for applause moments), but giving he leader a chance to lecture petulant hecklers to the enthusiastic delight of the crowd made him look popular and strong, and them look like fools.
As I say, consider the Scottish analogy, and imagine if some government - in Holyrood or Westminster - had tried to overturn a YES vote, and get it re-run with "more information", while ignoring the first vote for independence. Here the argument ends
And it's not as if their vanity and belligerence are exactly new traits.
So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
However wrong one may think the attempt to not enact the Brexit outcome was, Parliament definitely had the legal right to not do it because while calling the referendum vote an opinion poll is irresponsibly belittling and unhelpful, it isn't the case that they were acting against some law or constitution in their actions. They should have gone with a compromise Brexit, but instead chanced their arm - they were legally able to, where Trump was not legally able to given what he was seeking, and the big difference is that if they had succeeded, an election would have come, and they would have been accountable for their decision. Indeed, the voters punished them for not getting Brexit done.
I am sure if there is a Yes vote for Sindy there will precisely be those arguments played out again.
Granted there were also many spurious Brexit legal challenges.
But bottom line while the remainer clique in parliament may morally outrage, it was akin to an insurrection, and in the end that is what Trump's actions amounted to. If people want to say they are in the same category, fine, whatever, but they are not the same. SImply calling it a nationwide vote doesn't make it the same as a presidential vote, they were not the same type of thing.
I am prone to focus a bit much on process, but the different types of vote, law and powers of those involved in parliamentary sovereignty, do make a difference on it.
They could do what they did - the question was whether they should have, politically and morally. He neither could nor should.
In a country with free speech, legal groups are entitled to argue their viewpoint vigorously and trenchantly.
Those rowing about it should get their own stand to make their arguments, and be ashamed of themselves for trying to silence others.
That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.
And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.
Anyone think it would work ?
I'm looking forward to it.
Night all.
Why that is I don't know. But if the problem cannot be resolved then what is to happen with all the pigs? They are bred to be sold. Not to be kept as pets.
France clearly wants the former, but it wants it on French terms, with French arms and French leadership
Eastern Europe is not interested in this, and cleaves to America, thinking France too selfish (and too weak, basically)
Germany? Italy? Who knows. But soon they will all have to decide
So. We have no workers. Not in owt requiring skills that immigrants used to do.
Pay rises work for low skilled roles. They are a very good thing, and long overdue. But they don't give folk skills they don't have.
Madam, would you sleep with me for a million pounds?
My goodness. Well, I'd certainly think about it.
Would you sleep with me for a pound?
Certainly not! What kind of woman do you think I am?!
Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.
As you'd expect me to say, an alternative model would be less fragile and intensive, with meat more expensive but raised in a better and less frenetic way. But you'd need to link that to subsidies for non-meat alternatives to avoid poorer families struggling with higher food bills.
No wonder that can't be fucking filled. Fuck em, I'll have imported meat in the interim if that's what they think is appropriate.
Perhaps they were the only ones who believed their own propaganda?
I'll have another guess that the 'solution' being demanded is to get some migrants who will accept being exploited by said crap pay and conditions. Only for said migrants to then leave as soon as possible for jobs which have better pay and conditions.
Do you see that this might be a circular problem which only gets resolved when better pay and conditions are offered by those businesses who are continually saying that people aren't willing to do the job ?
Similarly when some business whines that it cannot get workers for £9ph I'd like it revealed what sort of housing a worker getting £9ph can afford in that location.