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Starmer’s big speech barely moves the betting markets – politicalbetting.com

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited September 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The other fact that came out today at the Old Bailey was that Couzens wiped his phone only minutes before he was arrested. How very coincidental and convenient.

    From my header earlier this year -

    "Despite his planning and attempts to cover his tracks, he gave his police mobile number to the firm from which he hired the car he used for the kidnap. That mistake (or arrogance) was what caught him."

    Arrogance? Or did he have a mate who could be relied on to wipe that from the record? Or who tipped him off?

    Those are the sorts of questions an investigator should be asking now.

    Instead we're getting the full spin campaign about how disgusted the police are.
    Well, gods forbid people get so disgusted that the police do something rash, like anything.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
    Proctor is wrong.

    Operation Midland began in November 2014.

    Starmer stood down as DPP in November 2013.

    Perhaps you can show me evidence otherwise?
    The link is that it was Starmers ‘believe the claimant’ policy that caused Proctor so much unnecessary harm. In that case some fairly obvious basic background checks would have shown it all to be a pack of lies, such as talking to Beeches ex wife.
    On the BBC documentary about it, Beech’s ex is absolutely hilarious
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,303
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Starmer, the "nice guy", the "honest politician"

    "Starmer shifts Labour towards second EU referendum

    "The frontbencher stresses the party's commitment to consider a further Brexit vote if it could not force a general election."

    "The frontbencher argued the point had been reached where Labour had agreed that if a general election could not be secured then the party "must" consider all options on the table, including a further public vote.

    Stressing the importance of the previously made commitment, he insisted it was "one we must keep"."

    He literally claimed that ignoring the first vote and then having a 2nd to try and reverse it was about "keeping promises"

    https://news.sky.com/story/starmer-shifts-labour-towards-second-eu-referendum-11611558


    There's tons of this. From 2016-2019 Starmer was furiously trying to cancel Brexit, and do a little coup, just because he didn't like Brexit.

    https://twitter.com/asfarasdelgados/status/1390290292339875847?s=21
    Nauseating


    And that lofty tone of voice as Starmer blithely says he wants to ignore 17.4m voters and tell them they don't matter because they are thick

    "It's a really important point of principle"

    Jesus FC
  • BBC News spoke to Dudley North, I'm not sure that's very high on the Labour target list?

    It bloody should be. Labour under Blair.
    Dudley North was Labour under Corbyn.

    Its swung from being 20% more Labour than the country in 2015 to 20% more Conservative than the country in 2019.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    Pulpstar said:

    Sky News should probably head to Milton Keynes, north and south are realistic targets for Labour; both were Labour in 2005.

    Milton Keynes, Swindon, Northampton, Stevenage, Watford, Reading West. Places like that.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    isam said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
    Proctor is wrong.

    Operation Midland began in November 2014.

    Starmer stood down as DPP in November 2013.

    Perhaps you can show me evidence otherwise?
    The link is that it was Starmers ‘believe the claimant’ policy that caused Proctor so much unnecessary harm. In that case some fairly obvious basic background checks would have shown it all to be a pack of lies, such as talking to Beeches ex wife.
    On the BBC documentary about it, Beech’s ex is absolutely hilarious
    Not seen that, but it was such a basic thing to do. I fear @Cyclefree is on the ball about the met.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
  • geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
    Proctor is wrong.

    Operation Midland began in November 2014.

    Starmer stood down as DPP in November 2013.

    Perhaps you can show me evidence otherwise?
    Proctor says that Starmer created the culture that allowed Operation Midland to begin. He created the environment that every 'victim' must be believed, which allowed a non-victim like Beech to claim to be a victim afterwards.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited September 2021

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sky News in Bassetlaw - “the kind of place Starmer must win back”

    I don’t think that’s right.

    It's not. Labour target 159, the mining link is long gone here.
    So who lives there now? I suspect it is classic swing territory as young families, commuters and Amazon warehouse workers for nearby Ashfield and Mansfield outnumber the ex miners.

    Sounds like exactly where Labour should be trying to turn the tide.
    Just full of normal people tbh - but the constituency overwhelmingly voted to leave the EU. That makes it very hard for Labour. As I said Milton Keynes would probably be a better place to gauge his speech as Starmer might be able to form a Gov't if he takes both of those.
    He'll be at about 400 seats if he takes Bassetlaw and Dudley North.
  • BBC News spoke to Dudley North, I'm not sure that's very high on the Labour target list?

    It bloody should be. Labour under Blair.
    Dudley North was Labour under Corbyn.

    Its swung from being 20% more Labour than the country in 2015 to 20% more Conservative than the country in 2019.
    Should be very winnable then. Get Rayner up there.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Unsurprisingly, the front pages are about Sarah.

    But Sky’s review starting with Starmer.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
    Proctor is wrong.

    Operation Midland began in November 2014.

    Starmer stood down as DPP in November 2013.

    Perhaps you can show me evidence otherwise?
    Starmer introduced the rule change that required police to assume Carl Beech was telling the truth

  • The link is that it was Starmers ‘believe the claimant’ policy that caused Proctor so much unnecessary harm. In that case some fairly obvious basic background checks would have shown it all to be a pack of lies, such as talking to Beeches ex wife.

    People misunderstood that policy, nor do they understand the charging process.

    The police do the bulk of the heavy lifting.

    The headline in the Mail article doesn't match the reality.

    However, the former Director of Public Prosecutions did appear more supportive of a ‘much wider inquiry’ into the ‘whole criminal justice system’ which facilitated the debacle.

    Last week, Home Secretary Priti Patel ruled out ordering a criminal probe into Midland.


    I mean if Starmer had screwed up Patel would have ordered a criminal probe into Midland.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,303

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer

  • Oliver Johnson
    @BristOliver

    Looking from outside, American COVID discourse is wild. As far as I can tell, you have to be in the "make unvaxxed toddlers wear double N95 masks outside" or the "beat COVID the natural way with horse dewormer and bleach" camp, and it's entirely determined by the way you voted.
  • Re filling stations.

    Is there any data on problems per area ?

    It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.

    Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Andy_JS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sky News should probably head to Milton Keynes, north and south are realistic targets for Labour; both were Labour in 2005.

    Milton Keynes, Swindon, Northampton, Stevenage, Watford, Reading West. Places like that.
    Winning Swindon might be hard if the BCE initial proposals go through, it's a godawful mess with parts of the Southern bit bolted on to East Wiltshire (formerly Devizes). As the southern bit has the smaller majority by far, that could be problematic, but maybe the remaining southern bit is the more Laboury bit.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,303
    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about.
    I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic.
    Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.

    Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.

    Just a thought.
    Yes, I grant that.

    I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say

    However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
  • Speaking of data does anyone have it on:

    1) Number of 12-15s being vaccinated
    2) Number of booster vaccinations taking place

    Neither are reported on the various government sites.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
    Sir Kir People's Vote shoulder-to-shoulder with Jeremy Corbyn 'who cares about antisemitism until I can get the top job' Royale.

    One of the only men in British politics with less integrity than Boris himself.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775


    Oliver Johnson
    @BristOliver

    Looking from outside, American COVID discourse is wild. As far as I can tell, you have to be in the "make unvaxxed toddlers wear double N95 masks outside" or the "beat COVID the natural way with horse dewormer and bleach" camp, and it's entirely determined by the way you voted.

    Rather, the way you get your political and your public health messaging are linked to something else. Something media-y, perhaps.
  • geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
    Proctor is wrong.

    Operation Midland began in November 2014.

    Starmer stood down as DPP in November 2013.

    Perhaps you can show me evidence otherwise?
    Proctor says that Starmer created the culture that allowed Operation Midland to begin. He created the environment that every 'victim' must be believed, which allowed a non-victim like Beech to claim to be a victim afterwards.
    Sir Keir would doubtless argue that for every Beech there were hundreds of children who were never believed over the decades when the local priest was molesting them. And I speak as someone who was highly critical on here about the Watson witch hunt - it just may not be an easy stick to beat a former DPP with.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Not if "make brexit work" is going to be a slogan. ;)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    On boundary changes, I don't remember the process last time, but I see from their site that they will be publishing the comments to their initial proposals, then consulting on those comments, and only at that point will they work up changes to their initial proposals. Which is an interesting approach, and on the face of it makes sense to me, since I've certainly seen local issues where responses to consultations by drafters overshoot and make things worse and people prefer the initials.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sky News should probably head to Milton Keynes, north and south are realistic targets for Labour; both were Labour in 2005.

    Milton Keynes, Swindon, Northampton, Stevenage, Watford, Reading West. Places like that.
    Winning Swindon might be hard if the BCE initial proposals go through, it's a godawful mess with parts of the Southern bit bolted on to East Wiltshire (formerly Devizes). As the southern bit has the smaller majority by far, that could be problematic, but maybe the remaining southern bit is the more Laboury bit.
    I think so, they are getting rid of all the villages in the outskirts, leaving just the town.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sky News should probably head to Milton Keynes, north and south are realistic targets for Labour; both were Labour in 2005.

    Milton Keynes, Swindon, Northampton, Stevenage, Watford, Reading West. Places like that.
    Yup. There are some seats rich in UKIP/BXP voters where Starmer needn't bother. Hartlepool is an obvious example, and there are others.

    There are also seats which used to be about coal mining and are now about commuter estates- places like Bassetlaw. The Conservatives can lose these- especially if the housing market goes pearshaped. But the place has changed, even if the name hasn't. They're not Labour bankers any more, and that's not even blameable on Corbyn.

    But there's still a decent swathe of classic marginals. But not in the places that people with an emotional attachment to Vintage Labour might recognise.
  • geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
    Proctor is wrong.

    Operation Midland began in November 2014.

    Starmer stood down as DPP in November 2013.

    Perhaps you can show me evidence otherwise?
    Proctor says that Starmer created the culture that allowed Operation Midland to begin. He created the environment that every 'victim' must be believed, which allowed a non-victim like Beech to claim to be a victim afterwards.
    Sir Keir would doubtless argue that for every Beech there were hundreds of children who were never believed over the decades when the local priest was molesting them. And I speak as someone who was highly critical on here about the Watson witch hunt - it just may not be an easy stick to beat a former DPP with.
    And to be fair that's a very fair point.

    The fact he served in Corbyn's Cabinet until the bitter end rather than stabbing Corbyn in the front and standing up for the victims of Labour's antisemitism is why I have nothing but contempt for the man.

    He has shown time and again he will say anything, and work with anyone, then discard them at the drop of the hat, if it furthers his own career.

    Only standing up against antisemitism once you've secured yourself a promotion is not strong.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited September 2021
    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
    Well, time will tell I guess.

    Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,303

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
    Well, time will tell I guess.

    Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
    Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?

    It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes

    This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.

    People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive

    This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
    Proctor is wrong.

    Operation Midland began in November 2014.

    Starmer stood down as DPP in November 2013.

    Perhaps you can show me evidence otherwise?
    Proctor says that Starmer created the culture that allowed Operation Midland to begin. He created the environment that every 'victim' must be believed, which allowed a non-victim like Beech to claim to be a victim afterwards.
    Sir Keir would doubtless argue that for every Beech there were hundreds of children who were never believed over the decades when the local priest was molesting them. And I speak as someone who was highly critical on here about the Watson witch hunt - it just may not be an easy stick to beat a former DPP with.
    This issue has been covered here - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/10/13/the-tyranny-of-low-expectations/ - and in the Henriques report.

    It is primarily a failing of the police. It is a failure to understand that an investigator should not be believing anything as a matter of course. They should investigate thoroughly and draw conclusions from facts found not from preconceived assumptions.

    The failure regarding children was two-fold: not taking the allegations seriously and dismissing them out of hand and, second, not understanding the particular issues with taking evidence from a child.

    Starmer as DPP did not direct the police. He may not have been as good as he could have been but it is highly unlikely that this will be an issue for him.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Does anyone know where I can find out about petrol availability on the M6 and M1?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited September 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
    Proctor is wrong.

    Operation Midland began in November 2014.

    Starmer stood down as DPP in November 2013.

    Perhaps you can show me evidence otherwise?
    Proctor says that Starmer created the culture that allowed Operation Midland to begin. He created the environment that every 'victim' must be believed, which allowed a non-victim like Beech to claim to be a victim afterwards.
    Sir Keir would doubtless argue that for every Beech there were hundreds of children who were never believed over the decades when the local priest was molesting them. And I speak as someone who was highly critical on here about the Watson witch hunt - it just may not be an easy stick to beat a former DPP with.
    This issue has been covered here - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/10/13/the-tyranny-of-low-expectations/ - and in the Henriques report.

    It is primarily a failing of the police. It is a failure to understand that an investigator should not be believing anything as a matter of course. They should investigate thoroughly and draw conclusions from facts found not from preconceived assumptions.

    The failure regarding children was two-fold: not taking the allegations seriously and dismissing them out of hand and, second, not understanding the particular issues with taking evidence from a child.

    Starmer as DPP did not direct the police. He may not have been as good as he could have been but it is highly unlikely that this will be an issue for him.
    I didn't know what was worse about that part of the Henriques report - that they had ever thought it acceptable that an investigator should act so, or that it quoted several senior people vigorously defending that approach even then.

    I've not yet read his 2020 book From Crime to Crime yet, but I do have it, and should prove interesting.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited September 2021
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
    Well, time will tell I guess.

    Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
    Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?

    It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes

    This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.

    People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive

    This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
    And Labour went from 40% in the 2017 GE, to 32% in 2019 because of it

    Then he took over as leader and they scored their worst vote shares ever in the constituency By Elections of Hartlepool, Chesham & Amersham and Batley & Spen
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842
    edited September 2021
    So yesterday Starmer was a no-hoper heading for certain defeat. Last week he wasn't going to survive this Conference as leader.
    Tonight he is a man who was in cahoots with paedophile witch hunts. Set guidelines of such force and power that neither the Tory PM, nor his successor could change in a full 12 months.
    And spent 4 years plotting a coup.
    I reckon Sir Keir will consider job well done in putting the wind up Tories.
    He's gone from pathetic, weak incompetent Labour leader.
    To the only other one Tories have, devil incarnate, in just one speech
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,303
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
    Well, time will tell I guess.

    Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
    Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?

    It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes

    This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.

    People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive

    This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
    And Labour went from 40% in the 2017 GE, to 32% in 2019 because of it

    Then he took over as leader and they scored their worst vote shares ever in the constituency By Elections of Hartlepool, Chesham & Amersham and Batley & Spen
    Unsurprisingly, the Labourite Remoaners suddenly want to move on and "Brexit is all in the past"

    LOL

    No, it isn't, not if you tried to render British democracy meaningless, by making 17.4 million votes utterly worthless
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
    Well, time will tell I guess.

    Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
    Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?

    It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes

    This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.

    People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive

    This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
    He wasn't sending people into Congress to overturn the results, but he went as far as you could without being completely cuckoo for Coco Pops.
  • Re filling stations.

    Is there any data on problems per area ?

    It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.

    Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.

    BP on Eastern Avenue in Ilford actually had a tanker present, but with a massive queue this afternoon. Tesco Ilford North was closed, as was Shell near Chigwell.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
    Well, time will tell I guess.

    Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
    Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?

    It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes

    This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.

    People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive

    This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
    And Labour went from 40% in the 2017 GE, to 32% in 2019 because of it

    Then he took over as leader and they scored their worst vote shares ever in the constituency By Elections of Hartlepool, Chesham & Amersham and Batley & Spen
    Unsurprisingly, the Labourite Remoaners suddenly want to move on and "Brexit is all in the past"

    LOL

    No, it isn't, not if you tried to render British democracy meaningless, by making 17.4 million votes utterly worthless
    Make Brexit Work
  • Jonathan said:

    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.

    Yes. Obviously worried.

    Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.

  • Cyclefree said:

    Does anyone know where I can find out about petrol availability on the M6 and M1?

    I don't sorry but from conversations earlier in the week its as close to impossible for them to run out of availability as is imaginable - and since the overwhelming majority of stations have fuel now, there's no real chance they'll be out.

    Apparently they're normally connected to major storage, plus they're prioritised as first priority for refuelling to prevent them running out. Its part of why its so expensive there.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842

    Re filling stations.

    Is there any data on problems per area ?

    It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.

    Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.

    The Home Counties and London seem to be panic buying central from all reports. Same with the bog roll.
    Maybe they just aren't as used to simply not having stuff?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,303

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
    Well, time will tell I guess.

    Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
    Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?

    It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes

    This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.

    People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive

    This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
    He wasn't sending people into Congress to overturn the results, but he went as far as you could without being completely cuckoo for Coco Pops.
    The analogy with Trump at the Capitol is spookily accurate, it's just that the whole People's Vote thing happened in decent, gentlemanly old Britain, and it was done by nice posh people in Chiswick and Islington and Cambridge, not lunatic Q_Anoners from Kentucky in buffalo horn hats.

    Yet the intention was exactly the same. Overturn a democratic vote, because you don't like it. And Starmer was a central part of it
  • Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
    Well, time will tell I guess.

    Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
    Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?

    It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes

    This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.

    People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive

    This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
    And Labour went from 40% in the 2017 GE, to 32% in 2019 because of it

    Then he took over as leader and they scored their worst vote shares ever in the constituency By Elections of Hartlepool, Chesham & Amersham and Batley & Spen
    Unsurprisingly, the Labourite Remoaners suddenly want to move on and "Brexit is all in the past"

    LOL

    No, it isn't, not if you tried to render British democracy meaningless, by making 17.4 million votes utterly worthless
    Make Brexit Work
    They won (for what it was worth), they should get over it.
  • dixiedean said:

    Re filling stations.

    Is there any data on problems per area ?

    It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.

    Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.

    The Home Counties and London seem to be panic buying central from all reports. Same with the bog roll.
    Maybe they just aren't as used to simply not having stuff?
    Maybe there's more easily panicked Remoaners there ready to rush out and panic buy 😉
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,542
    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about.
    I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic.
    Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.

    Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.

    Just a thought.
    Yes, I grant that.

    I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say

    However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
    Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
    Well, time will tell I guess.

    Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
    Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?

    It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes

    This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.

    People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive

    This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
    And Labour went from 40% in the 2017 GE, to 32% in 2019 because of it

    Then he took over as leader and they scored their worst vote shares ever in the constituency By Elections of Hartlepool, Chesham & Amersham and Batley & Spen
    Unsurprisingly, the Labourite Remoaners suddenly want to move on and "Brexit is all in the past"

    LOL

    No, it isn't, not if you tried to render British democracy meaningless, by making 17.4 million votes utterly worthless
    Make Brexit Work
    They won (for what it was worth), they should get over it.
    Well Brexit isn’t working at the moment, someone needs to get a grip.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842
    Hang on. Now he's Donald Trump.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,303

    Jonathan said:

    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.

    Yes. Obviously worried.

    Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.

    I mean, my God. The state of this comment
  • nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about.
    I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic.
    Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.

    Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.

    Just a thought.
    Yes, I grant that.

    I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say

    However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
    Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
    Something's upset you, Leon. Ran out of petrol?....
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842
    Come on lads, bit of effort, please.
    There are Mao, Stalin and Hitler comparisons going begging.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Jonathan said:

    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.

    Yes. Obviously worried.

    Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.

    The referendum was no better than an opinion poll? That's one way to look at it.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    Does anyone know where I can find out about petrol availability on the M6 and M1?

    I don't sorry but from conversations earlier in the week its as close to impossible for them to run out of availability as is imaginable - and since the overwhelming majority of stations have fuel now, there's no real chance they'll be out.

    Apparently they're normally connected to major storage, plus they're prioritised as first priority for refuelling to prevent them running out. Its part of why its so expensive there.
    Thank you.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,303
    Make Brexit Work is better than Starmer's prior slogan, which was Fuck Brexit Voters
  • Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.

    Yes. Obviously worried.

    Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.

    I mean, my God. The state of this comment
    and?
  • Good night
  • I think @Leon is a secret Corbynista. Has to be!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited September 2021
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
    Well, time will tell I guess.

    Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
    Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?

    It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes

    This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.

    People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive

    This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
    And Labour went from 40% in the 2017 GE, to 32% in 2019 because of it

    Then he took over as leader and they scored their worst vote shares ever in the constituency By Elections of Hartlepool, Chesham & Amersham and Batley & Spen
    Unsurprisingly, the Labourite Remoaners suddenly want to move on and "Brexit is all in the past"

    LOL

    No, it isn't, not if you tried to render British democracy meaningless, by making 17.4 million votes utterly worthless
    A large part of the raeason the Tories won so easily in 2019 was that I think even plenty of remainers (Well me anyway) thought it was very important the leave mandate was honoured. Only the Conservatives were offering that in '19. I'm not going to continue to vote for them for that reason, but plenty of leavers will now find the Tories the default choice. Part of the reason heavy leave former heartlands aren't going back Labour any time soon.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,336
    edited September 2021
    Leon said:

    Make Brexit Work is better than Starmer's prior slogan, which was Fuck Brexit Voters

    oh dear Leon....touched a nerve?

    I shall wait for Philip's like shall I?

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about.
    I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic.
    Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.

    Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.

    Just a thought.
    Yes, I grant that.

    I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say

    However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
    Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
    You think @Leon's got a moral compass?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Re filling stations.

    Is there any data on problems per area ?

    It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.

    Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.

    BP on Eastern Avenue in Ilford actually had a tanker present, but with a massive queue this afternoon. Tesco Ilford North was closed, as was Shell near Chigwell.
    BP Dinnington and Killamarsh were out, ASDA Harworth had fuel this evening - no queues albeit an automated £30 limit.
  • Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.

    Yes. Obviously worried.

    Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.

    I mean, my God. The state of this comment
    These extremists have so convinced themselves that they're right and that the other side were duped/idiots/fools that they don't stop to think for a second "are we the baddies"?
  • Re filling stations.

    Is there any data on problems per area ?

    It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.

    Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.

    Not true to say that Yorkshire unaffected. Certainly West Yorkshire.
  • RobD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.

    Yes. Obviously worried.

    Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.

    The referendum was no better than an opinion poll? That's one way to look at it.
    yes, thats why I said it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
    Well, time will tell I guess.

    Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
    Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?

    It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes

    This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.

    People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive

    This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
    He wasn't sending people into Congress to overturn the results, but he went as far as you could without being completely cuckoo for Coco Pops.
    The analogy with Trump at the Capitol is spookily accurate, it's just that the whole People's Vote thing happened in decent, gentlemanly old Britain, and it was done by nice posh people in Chiswick and Islington and Cambridge, not lunatic Q_Anoners from Kentucky in buffalo horn hats.

    Yet the intention was exactly the same. Overturn a democratic vote, because you don't like it. And Starmer was a central part of it
    Lol. "Overturn a democratic vote" with a, er... democratic vote! How undemocratic.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,100
    edited September 2021
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    French kicking off about fish, again...

    Seem very keen on 'this FTA says what we say it does', rather than what it actually says. EuCo following French line. The claim about 'exhaustive evidence' seems to be not very credible. Hope that Jersey has sufficient enforcement resources in place.

    Quite vituperative stuff on France 24, all about how retaliation could be done via cutting Electricity connections, blocking traffic on the Chunnel, and by using international students as leverage, and how the British/Jersey move is playing to the Tory Party conference.

    Were this over here, the BBC would be pointing out that the demands are contrary to the FTA and any reaction has to go through the agreed processes.

    French Ministerial statement:

    We understand and share the frustration of our fishermen. We cannot cooperate in confidence with the UK until the deal is honored. We will not hesitate to take retaliatory action, collectively. "

    EU Statement:


    ‘International students’?

    Wtf does that mean? They will stop French students coming to the Uk? Or vice versa?

    And blocking the channel?? That comes close to actual hostility

    The Times reports today that macron is apparently in a ‘dark rage’. He has been publicly and globally humiliated by AUKUS. There must be a risk he will do something actively stupid

    I said Chunnel ie Channel Tunnel, not Channel :smile:

    Here is that one:

    Jean-Pierre Pont, a lawmaker from the northern French port of Boulogne, said fishermen could block trucks from boarding Channel Tunnel trains headed to Britain.
    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210929-jersey-grants-95-licences-to-french-trawlers-but-turns-down-75

    And here is the French Maritime Affairs Minister Annick Girardin threatening students:

    The French maritime minister, Annick Girardin, said France and the EU would work on potential responses over the next two weeks unless the UK was able to resolve the dispute quickly.

    Paris is considering measures that would involve energy and trade, as well as train connections and British students living in France, she said after a meeting with fishing representatives. She called on other European countries to show solidarity “because what France is going through today, some others will also go through it”.

    The French government spokesman, Gabriel Attal, said the decisions by the UK and Jersey authorities were “totally unacceptable and inadmissible” and “contravene the agreement that was signed in the framework of Brexit”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/29/fresh-row-between-uk-and-france-over-jersey-fishing-rights

    The French Ministerial Morons need to read the agreement they signed...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.

    Yes. Obviously worried.

    Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.

    The referendum was no better than an opinion poll? That's one way to look at it.
    yes, thats why I said it.
    An utterly absurd comparison.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,542

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about.
    I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic.
    Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.

    Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.

    Just a thought.
    Yes, I grant that.

    I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say

    However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
    Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
    You think @Leon's got a moral compass?
    No I was being polite ! I accept that a lot in here don’t like Starmer but I find the arguments against him mere fluff when compared to what can be laid at the door of the clown in no 10.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited September 2021

    RobD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.

    Yes. Obviously worried.

    Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.

    The referendum was no better than an opinion poll? That's one way to look at it.
    yes, thats why I said it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w87GNWJHtFM
    "The choice is in your hands ... whatever your decision, I will do my best to deliver it"

    Yes that's what people say about opinion polls. Donnez moi un break. 🤦‍♂️
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    Leon said:

    Make Brexit Work is better than Starmer's prior slogan, which was Fuck Brexit Voters

    oh dear Leon....touched a nerve?

    I shall wait for Philip's like shall I?

    You didn't have to wait long tbf.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    "Why Keir Starmer believes that the heckles during his Labour conference speech were “helpful”

    The Labour leader’s team argue that the taunts sent a clear message: Keir Starmer is not Jeremy Corbyn and the party has changed.

    By Ailbhe Rea"

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/labour/2021/09/why-keir-starmer-believes-that-the-heckles-during-his-labour-conference-speech-were-helpful
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968
    edited September 2021
    dixiedean said:

    Re filling stations.

    Is there any data on problems per area ?

    It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.

    Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.

    The Home Counties and London seem to be panic buying central from all reports. Same with the bog roll.
    Maybe they just aren't as used to simply not having stuff?
    I had a theory that the panic buying in March 2020 was worse in London because they have smaller homes because of the higher property prices and east out more. The combination meaning that they have less food in their homes normally compared to the rest of the country.

    As to car fuel I wonder if because of the larger public transport network that cars are used less even by car owners in London. Leading to a relatively smaller filling station network and hence a quicker collapse.

    Or maybe areas with a higher population density are more susceptible to panic buying group think.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,303

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
    Well, time will tell I guess.

    Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
    Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?

    It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes

    This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.

    People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive

    This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
    He wasn't sending people into Congress to overturn the results, but he went as far as you could without being completely cuckoo for Coco Pops.
    The analogy with Trump at the Capitol is spookily accurate, it's just that the whole People's Vote thing happened in decent, gentlemanly old Britain, and it was done by nice posh people in Chiswick and Islington and Cambridge, not lunatic Q_Anoners from Kentucky in buffalo horn hats.

    Yet the intention was exactly the same. Overturn a democratic vote, because you don't like it. And Starmer was a central part of it
    Lol. "Overturn a democratic vote" with a, er... democratic vote! How undemocratic.
    So if Trumpites had succeeded at the Capitol, and bullied Congress and the SCOTUS into ignoring the 2020 prez election and re-running that election because the first one was "fraudulent" and "the public was misinformed", you'd have been OK with that?

    Because this is what you are saying, in effect.

    Please. Step back. Look at yourself. It is quite spectacularly incredible
  • RobD said:

    Jonathan said:

    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.

    Yes. Obviously worried.

    Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.

    The referendum was no better than an opinion poll? That's one way to look at it.
    yes, thats why I said it.
    "The choice is in your hands ... whatever your decision, I will do my best to deliver it"

    Yes that's what people say about opinion polls. Donnez moi un break. 🤦‍♂️
    La plume de ma t'aunt et dans le jardin?

    blah blah blah?

  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775
    Pulpstar said:

    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
    Brexit is done. This isn't about Brexit. This is about Starmer posing as a "decent honest politician you can trust" when in fact his behaviour on a 2nd referendum from 2016-2019 shows him to be exactly the opposite. A putrid, opportunistic anti-democratic liar

    Starmer wants to campaign on Boris character? Go on then, let's see what comes back at Sir Kir Royale Hypocrite People's Vote Starmer
    Well, time will tell I guess.

    Personally, I think Starmer's biggest challenge is his lack of charisma.
    Does it not trouble you AT ALL, that Starmer campaigned to reverse Brexit and ignore democracy?

    It is amazing what we can tolerate, and excuse, when the thing-we-must-excuse coincidentally accords with our deeply held political wishes

    This is not a personal attack. I am pretty sure I have been guilty of the same sin, at some points. It is a common human flaw.

    People who can rise above this and be completely morally consistent are rare, and impressive

    This does not exonerate Starmer's behaviour, however. It was seriously bad (and stupidly dangerous) and he should suffer for it
    And Labour went from 40% in the 2017 GE, to 32% in 2019 because of it

    Then he took over as leader and they scored their worst vote shares ever in the constituency By Elections of Hartlepool, Chesham & Amersham and Batley & Spen
    Unsurprisingly, the Labourite Remoaners suddenly want to move on and "Brexit is all in the past"

    LOL

    No, it isn't, not if you tried to render British democracy meaningless, by making 17.4 million votes utterly worthless
    A large part of the raeason the Tories won so easily in 2019 was that I think even plenty of remainers (Well me anyway) thought it was very important the leave mandate was honoured. Only the Conservatives were offering that in '19. I'm not going to continue to vote for them for that reason, but plenty of leavers will now find the Tories the default choice. Part of the reason heavy leave former heartlands aren't going back Labour any time soon.
    You need to account for the large increase in Lib Dem votes in any story of the election. A lot of those came from Labour. Those changes work in the opposite direction to your reasoning, but also helped to propel the Conservatives to such a large majority.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited September 2021
    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.

    Yes. Obviously worried.

    Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.

    I mean, my God. The state of this comment
    I cannot say I agree with daveyboy (and I don't know why 'advisory only' was in quotes as while true in a legal sense that doesn't mean a referendum has no weight behind it- it very much did), but the idea that a sovereign parliament seeking not to follow through on the Brexit vote, and ultimately would face the consequences of that at any election as indeed happened, as being analagous to instigating an armed mob to storm a legislature, I think takes an even wilder imagination.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    edited September 2021
    nico679 said:

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about.
    I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic.
    Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.

    Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.

    Just a thought.
    Yes, I grant that.

    I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say

    However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
    Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
    You think @Leon's got a moral compass?
    No I was being polite ! I accept that a lot in here don’t like Starmer but I find the arguments against him mere fluff when compared to what can be laid at the door of the clown in no 10.
    Agreed. But I think tonight's comments from the PB right-wingers is just them getting a bit nervous that Starmer's speech seems to have gone down ok.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    dixiedean said:

    Come on lads, bit of effort, please.
    There are Mao, Stalin and Hitler comparisons going begging.

    And splooge too soon?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 4,542
    Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842

    dixiedean said:

    Re filling stations.

    Is there any data on problems per area ?

    It seems that Yorkshire has been basically unaffected but that much of London and the south-east have been hit harder.

    Now do London and the south-east suffer when there's any sort of infrastructure disruption ? It certainly seems that way (too high and too dense a population perhaps ?) or is it that there's an excess of reporting of London and the south-east.

    The Home Counties and London seem to be panic buying central from all reports. Same with the bog roll.
    Maybe they just aren't as used to simply not having stuff?
    I had a theory that the panic buying in March 2020 was worse in London because they have smaller homes because of the higher property prices and east out more. The combination meaning that they have less food in their homes normally compared to the rest of the country.

    As to car fuel I wonder if because of the larger public transport network that cars are used less even by car owners in London. Leading to a relatively smaller filling station network and hence a quicker collapse.

    Or maybe areas with a higher population density are more susceptible to panic buying group think.
    Dunno. Curious though. We have a filling station in our village. There is another 3 miles away one way.
    3 more in the town 12 miles away in the other. So not overloaded. And barely any public transport to speak of.

    Yet, no issues whatsoever.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 10,775

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.

    Yes. Obviously worried.

    Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.

    I mean, my God. The state of this comment
    These extremists have so convinced themselves that they're right and that the other side were duped/idiots/fools that they don't stop to think for a second "are we the baddies"?
    Your comment has a wider catchment area than you probably intended.
  • nico679 said:

    Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !

    And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Keir Starmer believes that the heckles during his Labour conference speech were “helpful”

    The Labour leader’s team argue that the taunts sent a clear message: Keir Starmer is not Jeremy Corbyn and the party has changed.

    By Ailbhe Rea"

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/labour/2021/09/why-keir-starmer-believes-that-the-heckles-during-his-labour-conference-speech-were-helpful

    Couldn't have scripted it better.

    There were some moments where the obligatory applause felt, well, obligatory (it was a long speech after all, with many pause for applause moments), but giving he leader a chance to lecture petulant hecklers to the enthusiastic delight of the crowd made him look popular and strong, and them look like fools.
  • MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    French kicking off about fish, again...

    Seem very keen on 'this FTA says what we say it does', rather than what it actually says. EuCo following French line. The claim about 'exhaustive evidence' seems to be not very credible. Hope that Jersey has sufficient enforcement resources in place.

    Quite vituperative stuff on France 24, all about how retaliation could be done via cutting Electricity connections, blocking traffic on the Chunnel, and by using international students as leverage, and how the British/Jersey move is playing to the Tory Party conference.

    Were this over here, the BBC would be pointing out that the demands are contrary to the FTA and any reaction has to go through the agreed processes.

    French Ministerial statement:

    We understand and share the frustration of our fishermen. We cannot cooperate in confidence with the UK until the deal is honored. We will not hesitate to take retaliatory action, collectively. "

    EU Statement:


    ‘International students’?

    Wtf does that mean? They will stop French students coming to the Uk? Or vice versa?

    And blocking the channel?? That comes close to actual hostility

    The Times reports today that macron is apparently in a ‘dark rage’. He has been publicly and globally humiliated by AUKUS. There must be a risk he will do something actively stupid

    I said Chunnel ie Channel Tunnel, not Channel :smile:

    Here is that one:

    Jean-Pierre Pont, a lawmaker from the northern French port of Boulogne, said fishermen could block trucks from boarding Channel Tunnel trains headed to Britain.
    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210929-jersey-grants-95-licences-to-french-trawlers-but-turns-down-75

    And here is the French Maritime Affairs Minister Annick Girardin threatening students:

    The French maritime minister, Annick Girardin, said France and the EU would work on potential responses over the next two weeks unless the UK was able to resolve the dispute quickly.

    Paris is considering measures that would involve energy and trade, as well as train connections and British students living in France, she said after a meeting with fishing representatives. She called on other European countries to show solidarity “because what France is going through today, some others will also go through it”.

    The French government spokesman, Gabriel Attal, said the decisions by the UK and Jersey authorities were “totally unacceptable and inadmissible” and “contravene the agreement that was signed in the framework of Brexit”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/29/fresh-row-between-uk-and-france-over-jersey-fishing-rights

    The French Ministerial Morons need to read the agreement they signed...
    French vanity and belligerence is one of the things most likely to fracture the EU in the coming years.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,303
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.

    Yes. Obviously worried.

    Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.

    I mean, my God. The state of this comment
    I cannot say I agree with daveyboy (and I don't know why 'advisory only' was in quotes as while true in a legal sense that doesn't mean a referendum has no weight behind it), but the idea that a sovereign parliament seeking not to follow through on the Brexit vote, and ultimately would face the consequences of that at any election as indeed happened, as being analagous to instigating an armed mob to storm a legislature, I think takes an even wilder imagination.
    Trump tried to get an election - a nationwide vote - overturned because it was allegedly "rigged". That is exactly what Remoaners tried to do to Brexit, only in more polite and British ways

    As I say, consider the Scottish analogy, and imagine if some government - in Holyrood or Westminster - had tried to overturn a YES vote, and get it re-run with "more information", while ignoring the first vote for independence. Here the argument ends
  • kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Why Keir Starmer believes that the heckles during his Labour conference speech were “helpful”

    The Labour leader’s team argue that the taunts sent a clear message: Keir Starmer is not Jeremy Corbyn and the party has changed.

    By Ailbhe Rea"

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/labour/2021/09/why-keir-starmer-believes-that-the-heckles-during-his-labour-conference-speech-were-helpful

    Couldn't have scripted it better.

    There were some moments where the obligatory applause felt, well, obligatory (it was a long speech after all, with many pause for applause moments), but giving he leader a chance to lecture petulant hecklers to the enthusiastic delight of the crowd made him look popular and strong, and them look like fools.
    The heckler who chose to heckle him while he was telling a story about his ill mother hooked up to tubes being looked after by the NHS was especially stupid.
  • nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about.
    I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic.
    Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.

    Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.

    Just a thought.
    Yes, I grant that.

    I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say

    However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
    Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
    I think Comrade Leon is more Spin the Bottle than Moral Compass this evening.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,303

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about.
    I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic.
    Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.

    Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.

    Just a thought.
    Yes, I grant that.

    I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say

    However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
    Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
    I think Comrade Leon is more Spin the Bottle than Moral Compass this evening.
    I am not a stranger to intoxication. But on this occasion you find me essentially sober, sorry
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,557

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    French kicking off about fish, again...

    Seem very keen on 'this FTA says what we say it does', rather than what it actually says. EuCo following French line. The claim about 'exhaustive evidence' seems to be not very credible. Hope that Jersey has sufficient enforcement resources in place.

    Quite vituperative stuff on France 24, all about how retaliation could be done via cutting Electricity connections, blocking traffic on the Chunnel, and by using international students as leverage, and how the British/Jersey move is playing to the Tory Party conference.

    Were this over here, the BBC would be pointing out that the demands are contrary to the FTA and any reaction has to go through the agreed processes.

    French Ministerial statement:

    We understand and share the frustration of our fishermen. We cannot cooperate in confidence with the UK until the deal is honored. We will not hesitate to take retaliatory action, collectively. "

    EU Statement:


    ‘International students’?

    Wtf does that mean? They will stop French students coming to the Uk? Or vice versa?

    And blocking the channel?? That comes close to actual hostility

    The Times reports today that macron is apparently in a ‘dark rage’. He has been publicly and globally humiliated by AUKUS. There must be a risk he will do something actively stupid

    I said Chunnel ie Channel Tunnel, not Channel :smile:

    Here is that one:

    Jean-Pierre Pont, a lawmaker from the northern French port of Boulogne, said fishermen could block trucks from boarding Channel Tunnel trains headed to Britain.
    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210929-jersey-grants-95-licences-to-french-trawlers-but-turns-down-75

    And here is the French Maritime Affairs Minister Annick Girardin threatening students:

    The French maritime minister, Annick Girardin, said France and the EU would work on potential responses over the next two weeks unless the UK was able to resolve the dispute quickly.

    Paris is considering measures that would involve energy and trade, as well as train connections and British students living in France, she said after a meeting with fishing representatives. She called on other European countries to show solidarity “because what France is going through today, some others will also go through it”.

    The French government spokesman, Gabriel Attal, said the decisions by the UK and Jersey authorities were “totally unacceptable and inadmissible” and “contravene the agreement that was signed in the framework of Brexit”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/29/fresh-row-between-uk-and-france-over-jersey-fishing-rights

    The French Ministerial Morons need to read the agreement they signed...
    French vanity and belligerence is one of the things most likely to fracture the EU in the coming years.
    I'm not so sure. They are the worst kind of bully - ingratiating to those they need, like Germany, but vicious when they can get away with it.

    And it's not as if their vanity and belligerence are exactly new traits.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    nico679 said:

    Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !

    And what salary are the farmers offering to workers? Is it a good wage, or were you not interested in that element nico?
    The problem is a lack of butchers to work in abattoirs. Not workers on farms. ASIUI.
  • nico679 said:

    Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !

    There's over 32m currently employed.

    So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited September 2021
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.

    Yes. Obviously worried.

    Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.

    I mean, my God. The state of this comment
    I cannot say I agree with daveyboy (and I don't know why 'advisory only' was in quotes as while true in a legal sense that doesn't mean a referendum has no weight behind it), but the idea that a sovereign parliament seeking not to follow through on the Brexit vote, and ultimately would face the consequences of that at any election as indeed happened, as being analagous to instigating an armed mob to storm a legislature, I think takes an even wilder imagination.
    Trump tried to get an election - a nationwide vote - overturned because it was allegedly "rigged". That is exactly what Remoaners tried to do to Brexit, only in more polite and British ways

    As I say, consider the Scottish analogy, and imagine if some government - in Holyrood or Westminster - had tried to overturn a YES vote, and get it re-run with "more information", while ignoring the first vote for independence. Here the argument ends
    He engaged in spurious legal challenges and then instigated a mob based on fantasies, entreating those in Congress such as Pence to ignore their legal duty. And given his wishes to control the election outcomes through those who could certify them, people would not have gotten another chance had he succeeded.

    However wrong one may think the attempt to not enact the Brexit outcome was, Parliament definitely had the legal right to not do it because while calling the referendum vote an opinion poll is irresponsibly belittling and unhelpful, it isn't the case that they were acting against some law or constitution in their actions. They should have gone with a compromise Brexit, but instead chanced their arm - they were legally able to, where Trump was not legally able to given what he was seeking, and the big difference is that if they had succeeded, an election would have come, and they would have been accountable for their decision. Indeed, the voters punished them for not getting Brexit done.

    I am sure if there is a Yes vote for Sindy there will precisely be those arguments played out again.

    Granted there were also many spurious Brexit legal challenges.

    But bottom line while the remainer clique in parliament may morally outrage, it was akin to an insurrection, and in the end that is what Trump's actions amounted to. If people want to say they are in the same category, fine, whatever, but they are not the same. SImply calling it a nationwide vote doesn't make it the same as a presidential vote, they were not the same type of thing.

    I am prone to focus a bit much on process, but the different types of vote, law and powers of those involved in parliamentary sovereignty, do make a difference on it.

    They could do what they did - the question was whether they should have, politically and morally. He neither could nor should.
  • Leon said:

    nico679 said:

    Leon said:

    Farooq said:

    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    There's a problem, though, if Brexit turns out not to be that popular by the time the next election comes about.
    I hear your heartfelt cry that you think it was wrong to seek a 2nd referendum, but it's possibly not the easiest sell in the world, telling people that seeking a referendum is undemocratic.
    Again, not seeking to argue the point with you, just pointing out the presentational difficulties.

    Additionally, Labour lost a lot of voters in 2019. 11% of them went to the Conservatives, but 9% of them went to the Lib Dems. That's a baseline indication for 2017 Labour voters breaking pro- or anti-Brexit. If Brexit becomes a less salient issue or a less popular outcome, focusing heavily on it might not work out well. It's entirely possible it could even pave the way for Starmer to become PM.

    Just a thought.
    Yes, I grant that.

    I hope it will work against Starmer in 2024, and I believe there is a good chance it will. But it might not, for all the reasons you say

    However, it has reminded me that he is a sh1t. A north London Remoaner lawyer with all the nasty arrogance and rank hypocrisy that comes with that. In an ideal world, he should not be allowed to forget this, and he should bow out of politics
    Jeez we get it you don’t like Starmer. But seriously you sound shocked that politicians can be hypocrites . The choice is Johnson or Starmer at the next GE . I look forward to your critique of the former because clearly you can’t criticize Starmer and give Johnson a free pass unless that is your moral compass is selective .
    I think Comrade Leon is more Spin the Bottle than Moral Compass this evening.
    I am not a stranger to intoxication. But on this occasion you find me essentially sober, sorry
    Now that is concerning.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,100
    Scott_xP said:

    EXCLUSIVE: The Conservatives will host the LGB Alliance at this year's party conference.

    The charity has paid for a stall at the event, igniting a row within the party.


    https://www.itv.com/news/2021-09-29/row-over-lgb-alliance-stand-at-conservative-party-conference

    I don't see why this should be controversial.

    In a country with free speech, legal groups are entitled to argue their viewpoint vigorously and trenchantly.

    Those rowing about it should get their own stand to make their arguments, and be ashamed of themselves for trying to silence others.
  • nico679 said:

    Quite astonishing interview with the head of the NFU . Farmers could be forced to destroy healthy livestock because of the shortage of workers . This apparently would be a world first !

    There's over 32m currently employed.

    So why can their employers find workers and these farmers cannot ?
    Perhaps my employer should follow the NFU strategy.

    That is instead of paying the going rate to get workers demand a workforce for less than the going rate.

    And when said workforce doesn't appear threaten to destroy the assets of the business in a tantrum.

    Anyone think it would work ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,303
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Jonathan said:

    Good to see the righties here little bit frit again.

    Yes. Obviously worried.

    Dredging up the brexit referendum is clutching at straws really, considering the lies, corruption and gaslighting on Johnson's part (telegraph articles etc) showed how undemocratic it was. If it wasn't for the fact that the courts declared it "advisory only" there was a large chance it would have been overturned anyway. At best it was no better than a YouGov opinion poll with a bigger sample.

    I mean, my God. The state of this comment
    I cannot say I agree with daveyboy (and I don't know why 'advisory only' was in quotes as while true in a legal sense that doesn't mean a referendum has no weight behind it), but the idea that a sovereign parliament seeking not to follow through on the Brexit vote, and ultimately would face the consequences of that at any election as indeed happened, as being analagous to instigating an armed mob to storm a legislature, I think takes an even wilder imagination.
    Trump tried to get an election - a nationwide vote - overturned because it was allegedly "rigged". That is exactly what Remoaners tried to do to Brexit, only in more polite and British ways

    As I say, consider the Scottish analogy, and imagine if some government - in Holyrood or Westminster - had tried to overturn a YES vote, and get it re-run with "more information", while ignoring the first vote for independence. Here the argument ends
    He engaged in spurious legal challenges and then instigated a mob based on fantasies, entreating those in Congress such as Pence to ignore their legal duty. And given his wishes to control the election outcomes through those who could certify them, people would not have gotten another chance had he succeeded.

    However wrong one may think the attempt to not enact the Brexit outcome was, Parliament definitely had the legal right to not do it because while calling the referendum vote an opinion poll is irresponsibly belittling and unhelpful, it isn't the case that they were acting against some law or constitution in their actions. They should have gone with a compromise Brexit, but instead chanced their arm - they were legally able to, where Trump was not legally able to given what he was seeking, and the big difference is that if they had succeeded, an election would have come, and they would have been accountable for their decision. Indeed, the voters punished them for not getting Brexit done.

    I am sure if there is a Yes vote for Sindy there will precisely be those arguments played out again.

    Granted there were also many spurious Brexit legal challenges.

    But bottom line while the remainer clique in parliament may morally outrage, it was akin to an insurrection, and in the end that is what Trump's actions amounted to. If people want to say they are in the same category, fine, whatever, but they are not the same. SImply calling it a nationwide vote doesn't make it the same as a presidential vote, they were not the same type of thing.

    I am prone to focus a bit much on process, but the different types of vote, law and powers of those involved in parliamentary sovereignty, do make a difference on it.

    They could do what they did - the question was whether they should have, politically and morally. He neither could nor should.
    Christ, what a load of pointless waffle. I'm right, but you find it uncomfortable
  • Well next week Bozo gets the chance to show us how this conference speech malarkey should be done.

    I'm looking forward to it.

    Night all.
  • Fishing said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    French kicking off about fish, again...

    Seem very keen on 'this FTA says what we say it does', rather than what it actually says. EuCo following French line. The claim about 'exhaustive evidence' seems to be not very credible. Hope that Jersey has sufficient enforcement resources in place.

    Quite vituperative stuff on France 24, all about how retaliation could be done via cutting Electricity connections, blocking traffic on the Chunnel, and by using international students as leverage, and how the British/Jersey move is playing to the Tory Party conference.

    Were this over here, the BBC would be pointing out that the demands are contrary to the FTA and any reaction has to go through the agreed processes.

    French Ministerial statement:

    We understand and share the frustration of our fishermen. We cannot cooperate in confidence with the UK until the deal is honored. We will not hesitate to take retaliatory action, collectively. "

    EU Statement:


    ‘International students’?

    Wtf does that mean? They will stop French students coming to the Uk? Or vice versa?

    And blocking the channel?? That comes close to actual hostility

    The Times reports today that macron is apparently in a ‘dark rage’. He has been publicly and globally humiliated by AUKUS. There must be a risk he will do something actively stupid

    I said Chunnel ie Channel Tunnel, not Channel :smile:

    Here is that one:

    Jean-Pierre Pont, a lawmaker from the northern French port of Boulogne, said fishermen could block trucks from boarding Channel Tunnel trains headed to Britain.
    https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210929-jersey-grants-95-licences-to-french-trawlers-but-turns-down-75

    And here is the French Maritime Affairs Minister Annick Girardin threatening students:

    The French maritime minister, Annick Girardin, said France and the EU would work on potential responses over the next two weeks unless the UK was able to resolve the dispute quickly.

    Paris is considering measures that would involve energy and trade, as well as train connections and British students living in France, she said after a meeting with fishing representatives. She called on other European countries to show solidarity “because what France is going through today, some others will also go through it”.

    The French government spokesman, Gabriel Attal, said the decisions by the UK and Jersey authorities were “totally unacceptable and inadmissible” and “contravene the agreement that was signed in the framework of Brexit”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/29/fresh-row-between-uk-and-france-over-jersey-fishing-rights

    The French Ministerial Morons need to read the agreement they signed...
    French vanity and belligerence is one of the things most likely to fracture the EU in the coming years.
    I'm not so sure. They are the worst kind of bully - ingratiating to those they need, like Germany, but vicious when they can get away with it.

    And it's not as if their vanity and belligerence are exactly new traits.
    I think their vision of what the EU can do for them is starting to reach the end of the road though. There is a fundamental contradiction that hasn't yet been resolved.
This discussion has been closed.