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Starmer’s big speech barely moves the betting markets – politicalbetting.com

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  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    geoffw said:

     

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨BREAKING🚨

    Our snap poll with @SkyNewsBreak on Starmer's speech is out!

    The verdict - Fairly positive.

    % who think he came across as:
    🔴Cares about ordinary people - 68%
    🔴Competent - 62%
    🔴In touch with people’s concerns - 60%
    🔴Strong - 57%
    🔴Interesting - 41% https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1443278145126342656/photo/1

    Of the tiny minority who watched it.
    What they did is show highlights to a sample of 1330, and compared it with previous similar experiments with first-time leader speeches - he did better (5.9/10) than Corbyn 2015 (5.1), who in turn did better than Johnson 2019 (4.1).

    Which shows the limitations, since Johnson actually won. But although most people won't have seen this speech, it does suggest that he comes across well when people listen to him - and there will be plenty more opportunities for that as we emerge from lockdown. The key finding is probably that 63% agreed with what he had to say, vs. 29% who didn't.

    Worth remembering that, for all his real talents, BoJo is a surprisingly poor live public speaker. He's not done the mythical 10 000 hours of slogging away trying to convince a hostile (and sober) audience.

    Overall, it works for him, but it's noticeable.
    Yes, indeed

    When I was compiling my "conference speeches I remember" list (see below for more excitement!) it struck me that I can't remember a single line of a Boris conference speech, not even a joke, I don't think - and he tells pretty good jokes

    What I do remember is the PR and the stunts and the TV shows

    The TV Love Actually rip off advert - superb, one of the best electoral ads I've ever seen

    The interview where he speaks Ancient Greek from the Iliad for five minutes

    HIGNFYou

    Driving through a wall

    Donnez moi un break


    He's often good at the "impromptu" stuff and he can be absolutely brilliant at staged TV, but in general he's a poor speaker, especially at conferences
    I remembering Boris tripping up as he walked to the mike stand when he won the London mayoralty and saying, 'Ah... Ken's final booby trap!' (or something alike that). I thought it was quite a good ad-lib at the time, but it was probably all completely planned.
    Yes, again, it is little images and vignettes


    Boris throwing the basketball and somehow scoring from miles away

    Boris stuck on the zipline with the flags

    Boris doing that hand up Feel the Force thing and the cameraman falling over

    Boris in absurd shorts and shirt combo on holiday


    Cartoon images. But in an instagram age, this visual memorability may be a key asset
    So Scott is right, it's Bozo the clown.

    I think it could point to a boom and bust popularity.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,690
    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


  • Alistair said:

    Any decent restaurant recommendations for central Glasgow?

    Last time I was there I nearly incited a riot after describing the local food as tasting like deep fried shavings from a ped egg.

    You could take Sarah Vine's recommendation of the Ubiquitous Fish? More seriously the Ubiquitous Chip has been providing decent scran in the west end since the 70s and is only a 10 minute cab ride from the centre (call it the U.B. Chip if you want to sound local). The same family also have Stravaigin which is a bit more youth orientated and adventurous, and a bit closer to the centre.

    Edit: checked Stravaigin online and it seems they occasionally have grey squirrel on the menu..
    @TheScreamingEagles

    Stravaigan is superb
    Noted.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,994
    ...
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Ichiban on Queen street is very good if you like Japanese food - it's not fine dining though. Their gyoza are divine and no one else does it like them.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    There aren't shortages (apart from a few sporadic places) .

    There are a too many people filling up at the same time who don't normally.

    It's loo roll all over again.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    "Despite reassurances things were improving"? Things are improving. Most stations are already back to normal which is precisely why there was never any reason to panic buy.
    Then why send the Troops in now? 🤔

    Some sort of assessment rolling news in places of closed stations will just prolong it even further? That the original problem that sparked it hasn’t gone away?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Leon said:

    Anecdata


    A floating voter friend of mine - soft Remain, but hates Remoaners - has texted me

    "Watched a bit of Keir. I like him. He's honest. I'm bored of Boris. I will vote for Keir next time"

    He's in a quasi-marginal and voted Tory in 2019.....

    Philip Thompson is right! The electorate are going to be an ungrateful bunch towards everything Boris has done for them.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,690
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    No, he wanted to let the public choose whether to back the Deal or not.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310

    This a million times.

    I have to say I find the emphasis that the Metropolitan Police are putting on Couzens being an “ex” police officer pretty sickening. He was a police officer when he murdered Sarah Everard. More than that, he used that as a key part of his crime.

    https://twitter.com/IsabelHardman/status/1443292190277570569

    It is spin which shows that they do not really understand why this is so damaging to the police. How can any woman ever trust any officer ever again? And it shows that they are not really interested in learning any lessons or in doing anything to improve their toxic culture. They will just put this in the box marked "a rotten apple" and move on.

    Off topic, and I’m not sure if anyone else feels the same, but the Sarah everard sentencing is horrifying. The accounts, the timeline.

    And Cressida Dick gets a contract extension?

    I am absolutely bloody livid about this - both the awful murder and Cressida Dick.

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/07/12/if-not-now-when/

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2021/06/16/the-rise-and-fall-of-cressida-dick/

  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    "Despite reassurances things were improving"? Things are improving. Most stations are already back to normal which is precisely why there was never any reason to panic buy.
    Then why send the Troops in now? 🤔

    Some sort of assessment rolling news in places of closed stations will just prolong it even further? That the original problem that sparked it hasn’t gone away?
    Something must be done. This is something. The problem would have resolved in time, and this may help a tiny bit.
  • gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    "Despite reassurances things were improving"? Things are improving. Most stations are already back to normal which is precisely why there was never any reason to panic buy.
    Then why send the Troops in now? 🤔

    Some sort of assessment rolling news in places of closed stations will just prolong it even further? That the original problem that sparked it hasn’t gone away?
    Or take credit for the problem being resolved - which it would have been either way.

    If the media/panic buyers get the blame for this crisis, and he can be the leader who got it resolved, then win/win.

    Who cares if it would have been resolved without his or the militaries involvement anyway?

    Goes back to the conversation earlier today here about Boris being sly and cunning.
  • gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    "Despite reassurances things were improving"? Things are improving. Most stations are already back to normal which is precisely why there was never any reason to panic buy.
    Then why send the Troops in now? 🤔

    Some sort of assessment rolling news in places of closed stations will just prolong it even further? That the original problem that sparked it hasn’t gone away?
    And how long will the troops be helping out? Indefinitely? Or will we be seeing another panic when they are withdrawn?
  • gealbhan said:

    Leon said:

    Anecdata


    A floating voter friend of mine - soft Remain, but hates Remoaners - has texted me

    "Watched a bit of Keir. I like him. He's honest. I'm bored of Boris. I will vote for Keir next time"

    He's in a quasi-marginal and voted Tory in 2019.....

    Philip Thompson is right! The electorate are going to be an ungrateful bunch towards everything Boris has done for them.
    Why do you keep [mis]quoting me? Especially for things I haven't said the way you say it?

    It's weird and a little creepy.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    "Despite reassurances things were improving"? Things are improving. Most stations are already back to normal which is precisely why there was never any reason to panic buy.
    Then why send the Troops in now? 🤔

    Some sort of assessment rolling news in places of closed stations will just prolong it even further? That the original problem that sparked it hasn’t gone away?
    And how long will the troops be helping out? Indefinitely? Or will we be seeing another panic when they are withdrawn?
    The status quo before was about eight petrol stations being low. For 99.9% of people there were no shortages.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    edited September 2021
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    Only 4% thought it went 'very well'? A big chunk of the PB Leavers are seriously out of whack with the rest of the country.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    Exactly
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,732
    edited September 2021
    Yay! BBC News at 10 leads on Starmer.

    For millions this is basically their only news of the day.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Surely Lingard was offside for United winner?


  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    "Despite reassurances things were improving"? Things are improving. Most stations are already back to normal which is precisely why there was never any reason to panic buy.
    Then why send the Troops in now? 🤔

    Some sort of assessment rolling news in places of closed stations will just prolong it even further? That the original problem that sparked it hasn’t gone away?
    And how long will the troops be helping out? Indefinitely? Or will we be seeing another panic when they are withdrawn?
    No because there never needed to be a panic in the first place. This has been entirely concocted by people acting with malicious intent, wilfully aided by the stupid media.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    Yay! BBC News at 10 leads on Starmer.

    For millions this is basically their only news of the day.

    Sky go with Sarah.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨BREAKING🚨

    Our snap poll with @SkyNewsBreak on Starmer's speech is out!

    The verdict - Fairly positive.

    % who think he came across as:
    🔴Cares about ordinary people - 68%
    🔴Competent - 62%
    🔴In touch with people’s concerns - 60%
    🔴Strong - 57%
    🔴Interesting - 41% https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1443278145126342656/photo/1

    Of the tiny minority who watched it.
    What they did is show highlights to a sample of 1330, and compared it with previous similar experiments with first-time leader speeches - he did better (5.9/10) than Corbyn 2015 (5.1), who in turn did better than Johnson 2019 (4.1).

    Which shows the limitations, since Johnson actually won. But although most people won't have seen this speech, it does suggest that he comes across well when people listen to him - and there will be plenty more opportunities for that as we emerge from lockdown. The key finding is probably that 63% agreed with what he had to say, vs. 29% who didn't.

    Worth remembering that, for all his real talents, BoJo is a surprisingly poor live public speaker. He's not done the mythical 10 000 hours of slogging away trying to convince a hostile (and sober) audience.

    Overall, it works for him, but it's noticeable.
    Yes, indeed

    When I was compiling my "conference speeches I remember" list (see below for more excitement!) it struck me that I can't remember a single line of a Boris conference speech, not even a joke, I don't think - and he tells pretty good jokes

    What I do remember is the PR and the stunts and the TV shows

    The TV Love Actually rip off advert - superb, one of the best electoral ads I've ever seen

    The interview where he speaks Ancient Greek from the Iliad for five minutes

    HIGNFYou

    Driving through a wall

    Donnez moi un break


    He's often good at the "impromptu" stuff and he can be absolutely brilliant at staged TV, but in general he's a poor speaker, especially at conferences
    I remembering Boris tripping up as he walked to the mike stand when he won the London mayoralty and saying, 'Ah... Ken's final booby trap!' (or something alike that). I thought it was quite a good ad-lib at the time, but it was probably all completely planned.
    Yes, again, it is little images and vignettes


    Boris throwing the basketball and somehow scoring from miles away

    Boris stuck on the zipline with the flags

    Boris doing that hand up Feel the Force thing and the cameraman falling over

    Boris in absurd shorts and shirt combo on holiday


    Cartoon images. But in an instagram age, this visual memorability may be a key asset
    True, and I suspect that in previous eras, BoJo wouldn't have got anywhere near as far up the greasy pole as he has.

    But his great successes have come where he's had a good editor. HIGYFY famously records loads of material to pick out the goodies for a half hour show. (It's not cheating, it's the only way to make a topical comedy show any good. I've been to recordings of The News Quiz and The Now Show, and the stuff on the cutting room floor mostly deserves to be there.) The same goes for those iconic images- the zipline, the Love Actually parody, the driving a small forklift through a Styrofoam wall. They're bloody good images.

    But they depend on the suspension of disbelief in a moment in time. You have to ignore the "hey, that Love Actually guy was actually a bit creepy hitting on someone who has just got married". You have to switch off the before and after for the zipline. You have to not question "what if it's not as simple as driving through Styrofoam?"

    And Boris's problem as PM is he doesn't get a good editor. We all see the before and the after. And at some point between 0 and 10 years time, that will destroy him. I don't know when, but I'm fairly confident about how.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    No, he wanted to let the public choose whether to back the Deal or not.
    I like the Democracy the Torys have forced on the trade unions. Have to win a vote to go off and talk and come back with a deal, but members get a vote on if it is indeed better and acceptable when knowing more about what they are getting.

    By coming up with that, could the Tory’s have defined democracy any fairer and stronger?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    linto said:

    It's interesting about policing, unfortunately it really is a few bad apples, to use that awful phrase.
    The MET are universally disliked by pretty much every other force, their institutional arrogance (a feature of larger metropolitan forces seemingly) causes many of these problems. Strip them of many national focussed roles and either move them to the NCA or regional hubs, possibly.
    How do we change, is a particularly challenging issue, I'd probably give the IOPC greater powers, funding and increase their scrutiny around corruption, I'd wager it would only take 1 or 2 cases to massively move things towards a better place, but keep the pressure on.
    Politicians need to stop being either for or against and work for positive change, listen to the rank and file (not the Federation, a union which fights for its members, as it should, but by definition a very conservative organisation) they have good ideas and recognise where they need to change and how best to achieve it.
    Force forces to adopt best practice, if they don't hold them to account.
    Promote less conservative leaders.
    Fund the criminal justice system at all levels properly.
    That's how I'd start anyway.

    It is not a few rotten apples. See the article I posted upthread.

    The IOPC are worse than useless.

    The Greater Manchester Police has had similar problems and a report has just come out which shows it to be as bad as the Met. Incidentally, if anyone paid any attention to it, it would cast a poor light on Andy Burnham who seems to have been utterly feeble. Worth reading the reports by Jennifer Williams in the Manchester press. She's a very good journalist.

    The senior cadre needs kicking out and we need some good leaders like Sir Robert Mark in charge. Where the hell we'd find them God only knows.
  • gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    "Despite reassurances things were improving"? Things are improving. Most stations are already back to normal which is precisely why there was never any reason to panic buy.
    Then why send the Troops in now? 🤔

    Some sort of assessment rolling news in places of closed stations will just prolong it even further? That the original problem that sparked it hasn’t gone away?
    Or take credit for the problem being resolved - which it would have been either way.

    If the media/panic buyers get the blame for this crisis, and he can be the leader who got it resolved, then win/win.

    Who cares if it would have been resolved without his or the militaries involvement anyway?

    Goes back to the conversation earlier today here about Boris being sly and cunning.
    Whatever the reason, having your population queuing for petrol is not a good look. From reading foreign media reports, you'd get the impression that the UK isn't far off becoming a failed state!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    No, he wanted to let the public choose whether to back the Deal or not.
    No, it really really fucking isn't. You could not put REMAIN on the ballot sheet. It was an attempt to reverse the vote, to destroy democracy, without ever acknowledging or enacting the first vote. It was evil

    Here's a mindgame for the hard of thinking Remoaners like you

    Imagine if Scotland had voted YES by 52-48 in 2014. Voted for independence

    Would anyone - anyone - in their right minds, have proposed "ignoring" this vote because it was wrong, because independence was impossible, or difficult, or because the voters were stupid, racist or misinformed? Would ANY British or Scottish government have proposed ANOTHER Scottish indy referendum, with NO on the ballot, without even bothering to enact the first one, making Scotland independent?

    Of course not. No way. It would have been the fast track to civil war and blood on the streets of Scotland. It would have been an act of insane immorality.

    Why is Scotland any different to Britain? It is not. We voted. That vote had to be enacted. Brexit had to be done, even if you hated it, Because anything else would have destroyed British democracy for a century (who bother voting for anything if they can just ignore it??) and it might easily have led to major violence on the streets

    THAT is what Remoaners wanted to do. That is what Starmer wanted to do. We must never ever forget.

    It was Trump's march on the Capitol, except it was ever so polite and British and middle class and genteel

  • rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨BREAKING🚨

    Our snap poll with @SkyNewsBreak on Starmer's speech is out!

    The verdict - Fairly positive.

    % who think he came across as:
    🔴Cares about ordinary people - 68%
    🔴Competent - 62%
    🔴In touch with people’s concerns - 60%
    🔴Strong - 57%
    🔴Interesting - 41% https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1443278145126342656/photo/1

    That's a very cherry picked set of numbers. You need to include:

    Alive - 44%
    Fragrant - 38%
    Strange haircut - 56%
    Pregnant - 51%
    Pregnant? We all know Boris gets around, so to speak, but that's a plot twist I really wasn't expecting.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    "Despite reassurances things were improving"? Things are improving. Most stations are already back to normal which is precisely why there was never any reason to panic buy.
    Then why send the Troops in now? 🤔

    Some sort of assessment rolling news in places of closed stations will just prolong it even further? That the original problem that sparked it hasn’t gone away?
    And how long will the troops be helping out? Indefinitely? Or will we be seeing another panic when they are withdrawn?
    No because there never needed to be a panic in the first place. This has been entirely concocted by people acting with malicious intent, wilfully aided by the stupid media.
    So how are you going to restrain the media in future?
  • tlg86 said:

    Yay! BBC News at 10 leads on Starmer.

    For millions this is basically their only news of the day.

    Sky go with Sarah.
    Not the same # of viewers by an order or two of magnitude me thinks.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    "Despite reassurances things were improving"? Things are improving. Most stations are already back to normal which is precisely why there was never any reason to panic buy.
    Then why send the Troops in now? 🤔

    Some sort of assessment rolling news in places of closed stations will just prolong it even further? That the original problem that sparked it hasn’t gone away?
    And how long will the troops be helping out? Indefinitely? Or will we be seeing another panic when they are withdrawn?
    No because there never needed to be a panic in the first place. This has been entirely concocted by people acting with malicious intent, wilfully aided by the stupid media.
    The media argument that "we know it's not serious but it is news so we have to report it" is annoying me. That's cobblers, there must be 100 more serious problems every week that they could report on if they wanted to. In particular some of the newspapers deliberately went completely overboard in their reporting. There was no need to do that, it was not in the public interest, and I'm sure the people doing so were quite aware they were overstating the severity of the problem.

    Covid has already shown why there was censorship during the war, and again the press demonstrate that sometimes you have to gag the idiots, as left to their own devices they can be downright dangerous.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    No, he wanted to let the public choose whether to back the Deal or not.
    No, it really really fucking isn't. You could not put REMAIN on the ballot sheet. It was an attempt to reverse the vote, to destroy democracy, without ever acknowledging or enacting the first vote. It was evil

    Here's a mindgame for the hard of thinking Remoaners like you

    Imagine if Scotland had voted YES by 52-48 in 2014. Voted for independence

    Would anyone - anyone - in their right minds, have proposed "ignoring" this vote because it was wrong, because independence was impossible, or difficult, or because the voters were stupid, racist or misinformed? Would ANY British or Scottish government have proposed ANOTHER Scottish indy referendum, with NO on the ballot, without even bothering to enact the first one, making Scotland independent?

    Of course not. No way. It would have been the fast track to civil war and blood on the streets of Scotland. It would have been an act of insane immorality.

    Why is Scotland any different to Britain? It is not. We voted. That vote had to be enacted. Brexit had to be done, even if you hated it, Because anything else would have destroyed British democracy for a century (who bother voting for anything if they can just ignore it??) and it might easily have led to major violence on the streets

    THAT is what Remoaners wanted to do. That is what Starmer wanted to do. We must never ever forget.

    It was Trump's march on the Capitol, except it was ever so polite and British and middle class and genteel

    The public did get a say. When Sir Keir’s stop Brexit ruse was put to them at the GE, they left labour in their droves
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    gealbhan said:

    Leon said:

    Anecdata


    A floating voter friend of mine - soft Remain, but hates Remoaners - has texted me

    "Watched a bit of Keir. I like him. He's honest. I'm bored of Boris. I will vote for Keir next time"

    He's in a quasi-marginal and voted Tory in 2019.....

    Philip Thompson is right! The electorate are going to be an ungrateful bunch towards everything Boris has done for them.
    Why do you keep [mis]quoting me? Especially for things I haven't said the way you say it?

    It's weird and a little creepy.
    You said it in an answer to my post after the new tax was introduced. That they could be ungrateful and not stick with him.

    What do you (mistakenly) claim you said?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    The other fact that came out today at the Old Bailey was that Couzens wiped his phone only minutes before he was arrested. How very coincidental and convenient.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    "Despite reassurances things were improving"? Things are improving. Most stations are already back to normal which is precisely why there was never any reason to panic buy.
    Then why send the Troops in now? 🤔

    Some sort of assessment rolling news in places of closed stations will just prolong it even further? That the original problem that sparked it hasn’t gone away?
    And how long will the troops be helping out? Indefinitely? Or will we be seeing another panic when they are withdrawn?
    No because there never needed to be a panic in the first place. This has been entirely concocted by people acting with malicious intent, wilfully aided by the stupid media.
    So how are you going to restrain the media in future?
    No idea. I can diagnose the problem but I have no idea how to fix it. I listened all day to 5live constantly pushing the story, and saying ‘there is no need to panic buy’. I doubt Darren Brown could have pushed ‘panic buy’ better into the public consciousness.
  • Why does Mr Smithson choose the Guardian to anyalse the speech one wonders...

    Dunno but if you rule out the Times, Telegraph and FT because of their paywalls, who remains?
  • RobD said:

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    "Despite reassurances things were improving"? Things are improving. Most stations are already back to normal which is precisely why there was never any reason to panic buy.
    Then why send the Troops in now? 🤔

    Some sort of assessment rolling news in places of closed stations will just prolong it even further? That the original problem that sparked it hasn’t gone away?
    And how long will the troops be helping out? Indefinitely? Or will we be seeing another panic when they are withdrawn?
    The status quo before was about eight petrol stations being low. For 99.9% of people there were no shortages.
    That wasn't the status quo. That was a new development. Even without any media coverage it's likely that a steadily increasing number of service stations would have begun to run low. That's what happens if supplies are falling behind sales as seems likely given the lack of drivers and an expanding petrol consumption.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,994
    EXCL: Don't say 'panic' amid fuel crisis, Cabinet Office warns councils
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58740507
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    No, he wanted to let the public choose whether to back the Deal or not.
    No, it really really fucking isn't. You could not put REMAIN on the ballot sheet. It was an attempt to reverse the vote, to destroy democracy, without ever acknowledging or enacting the first vote. It was evil

    Here's a mindgame for the hard of thinking Remoaners like you

    Imagine if Scotland had voted YES by 52-48 in 2014. Voted for independence

    Would anyone - anyone - in their right minds, have proposed "ignoring" this vote because it was wrong, because independence was impossible, or difficult, or because the voters were stupid, racist or misinformed? Would ANY British or Scottish government have proposed ANOTHER Scottish indy referendum, with NO on the ballot, without even bothering to enact the first one, making Scotland independent?

    Of course not. No way. It would have been the fast track to civil war and blood on the streets of Scotland. It would have been an act of insane immorality.

    Why is Scotland any different to Britain? It is not. We voted. That vote had to be enacted. Brexit had to be done, even if you hated it, Because anything else would have destroyed British democracy for a century (who bother voting for anything if they can just ignore it??) and it might easily have led to major violence on the streets

    THAT is what Remoaners wanted to do. That is what Starmer wanted to do. We must never ever forget.

    It was Trump's march on the Capitol, except it was ever so polite and British and middle class and genteel

    The public did get a say. When Sir Keir’s stop Brexit ruse was put to them at the GE, they left labour in their droves
    I'm actually ashamed of myself for forgetting this. Starmer wanted to do a Trump on Brexit, he wanted to reverse democracy, and make Britain some kind of banana republic. And I was falling for his "nice guy" shtick

    UGH, what a fraud. NEVER STARMER
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    He was also in charge of the CPS when the Rotherham grooming gangs were being investigated. But I doubt if his record there will be of interest to many.
  • isam said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    No, he wanted to let the public choose whether to back the Deal or not.
    No, it really really fucking isn't. You could not put REMAIN on the ballot sheet. It was an attempt to reverse the vote, to destroy democracy, without ever acknowledging or enacting the first vote. It was evil

    Here's a mindgame for the hard of thinking Remoaners like you

    Imagine if Scotland had voted YES by 52-48 in 2014. Voted for independence

    Would anyone - anyone - in their right minds, have proposed "ignoring" this vote because it was wrong, because independence was impossible, or difficult, or because the voters were stupid, racist or misinformed? Would ANY British or Scottish government have proposed ANOTHER Scottish indy referendum, with NO on the ballot, without even bothering to enact the first one, making Scotland independent?

    Of course not. No way. It would have been the fast track to civil war and blood on the streets of Scotland. It would have been an act of insane immorality.

    Why is Scotland any different to Britain? It is not. We voted. That vote had to be enacted. Brexit had to be done, even if you hated it, Because anything else would have destroyed British democracy for a century (who bother voting for anything if they can just ignore it??) and it might easily have led to major violence on the streets

    THAT is what Remoaners wanted to do. That is what Starmer wanted to do. We must never ever forget.

    It was Trump's march on the Capitol, except it was ever so polite and British and middle class and genteel

    The public did get a say. When Sir Keir’s stop Brexit ruse was put to them at the GE, they left labour in their droves
    I think you've just killed off Leon's argument: the public could have democratically chosen to give themselves another vote; they democratically chose not to.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    edited September 2021

    RobD said:

    gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    "Despite reassurances things were improving"? Things are improving. Most stations are already back to normal which is precisely why there was never any reason to panic buy.
    Then why send the Troops in now? 🤔

    Some sort of assessment rolling news in places of closed stations will just prolong it even further? That the original problem that sparked it hasn’t gone away?
    And how long will the troops be helping out? Indefinitely? Or will we be seeing another panic when they are withdrawn?
    The status quo before was about eight petrol stations being low. For 99.9% of people there were no shortages.
    That wasn't the status quo. That was a new development. Even without any media coverage it's likely that a steadily increasing number of service stations would have begun to run low. That's what happens if supplies are falling behind sales as seems likely given the lack of drivers and an expanding petrol consumption.
    I thought it was, since the meeting was several weeks prior to it all kicking off. I don't think the situation had deteriorated in the interim.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,665
    edited September 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    The other fact that came out today at the Old Bailey was that Couzens wiped his phone only minutes before he was arrested. How very coincidental and convenient.

    There should be a formal enquiry into how Couzens was still in the police and how the case was handled.
  • gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    "Despite reassurances things were improving"? Things are improving. Most stations are already back to normal which is precisely why there was never any reason to panic buy.
    Then why send the Troops in now? 🤔

    Some sort of assessment rolling news in places of closed stations will just prolong it even further? That the original problem that sparked it hasn’t gone away?
    Or take credit for the problem being resolved - which it would have been either way.

    If the media/panic buyers get the blame for this crisis, and he can be the leader who got it resolved, then win/win.

    Who cares if it would have been resolved without his or the militaries involvement anyway?

    Goes back to the conversation earlier today here about Boris being sly and cunning.
    Whatever the reason, having your population queuing for petrol is not a good look. From reading foreign media reports, you'd get the impression that the UK isn't far off becoming a failed state!
    Failed state? Oh give over!

    This isn't the first time that panic buyers have caused a clear out and it won't be the last. The irony is perhaps that its happened so often recently, with the toilet paper etc, that people are rather immune to the surprise of it and know full well that dingbats are to blame.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    No, he wanted to let the public choose whether to back the Deal or not.
    No, it really really fucking isn't. You could not put REMAIN on the ballot sheet. It was an attempt to reverse the vote, to destroy democracy, without ever acknowledging or enacting the first vote. It was evil

    Here's a mindgame for the hard of thinking Remoaners like you

    Imagine if Scotland had voted YES by 52-48 in 2014. Voted for independence

    Would anyone - anyone - in their right minds, have proposed "ignoring" this vote because it was wrong, because independence was impossible, or difficult, or because the voters were stupid, racist or misinformed? Would ANY British or Scottish government have proposed ANOTHER Scottish indy referendum, with NO on the ballot, without even bothering to enact the first one, making Scotland independent?

    Of course not. No way. It would have been the fast track to civil war and blood on the streets of Scotland. It would have been an act of insane immorality.

    Why is Scotland any different to Britain? It is not. We voted. That vote had to be enacted. Brexit had to be done, even if you hated it, Because anything else would have destroyed British democracy for a century (who bother voting for anything if they can just ignore it??) and it might easily have led to major violence on the streets

    THAT is what Remoaners wanted to do. That is what Starmer wanted to do. We must never ever forget.

    It was Trump's march on the Capitol, except it was ever so polite and British and middle class and genteel

    The public did get a say. When Sir Keir’s stop Brexit ruse was put to them at the GE, they left labour in their droves
    I think you've just killed off Leon's argument: the public could have democratically chosen to give themselves another vote; they democratically chose not to.
    Was there ever talk of having another referendum without a GE first? It’s all so bonkers and long ago I can barely believe it was even tried on
  • geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Sky News in Bassetlaw - “the kind of place Starmer must win back”

    I don’t think that’s right.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨BREAKING🚨

    Our snap poll with @SkyNewsBreak on Starmer's speech is out!

    The verdict - Fairly positive.

    % who think he came across as:
    🔴Cares about ordinary people - 68%
    🔴Competent - 62%
    🔴In touch with people’s concerns - 60%
    🔴Strong - 57%
    🔴Interesting - 41% https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1443278145126342656/photo/1

    Of the tiny minority who watched it.
    What they did is show highlights to a sample of 1330, and compared it with previous similar experiments with first-time leader speeches - he did better (5.9/10) than Corbyn 2015 (5.1), who in turn did better than Johnson 2019 (4.1).

    Which shows the limitations, since Johnson actually won. But although most people won't have seen this speech, it does suggest that he comes across well when people listen to him - and there will be plenty more opportunities for that as we emerge from lockdown. The key finding is probably that 63% agreed with what he had to say, vs. 29% who didn't.

    Worth remembering that, for all his real talents, BoJo is a surprisingly poor live public speaker. He's not done the mythical 10 000 hours of slogging away trying to convince a hostile (and sober) audience.

    Overall, it works for him, but it's noticeable.
    Yes, indeed

    When I was compiling my "conference speeches I remember" list (see below for more excitement!) it struck me that I can't remember a single line of a Boris conference speech, not even a joke, I don't think - and he tells pretty good jokes

    What I do remember is the PR and the stunts and the TV shows

    The TV Love Actually rip off advert - superb, one of the best electoral ads I've ever seen

    The interview where he speaks Ancient Greek from the Iliad for five minutes

    HIGNFYou

    Driving through a wall

    Donnez moi un break


    He's often good at the "impromptu" stuff and he can be absolutely brilliant at staged TV, but in general he's a poor speaker, especially at conferences
    I remembering Boris tripping up as he walked to the mike stand when he won the London mayoralty and saying, 'Ah... Ken's final booby trap!' (or something alike that). I thought it was quite a good ad-lib at the time, but it was probably all completely planned.
    Yes, again, it is little images and vignettes


    Boris throwing the basketball and somehow scoring from miles away

    Boris stuck on the zipline with the flags

    Boris doing that hand up Feel the Force thing and the cameraman falling over

    Boris in absurd shorts and shirt combo on holiday


    Cartoon images. But in an instagram age, this visual memorability may be a key asset
    True, and I suspect that in previous eras, BoJo wouldn't have got anywhere near as far up the greasy pole as he has.

    But his great successes have come where he's had a good editor. HIGYFY famously records loads of material to pick out the goodies for a half hour show. (It's not cheating, it's the only way to make a topical comedy show any good. I've been to recordings of The News Quiz and The Now Show, and the stuff on the cutting room floor mostly deserves to be there.) The same goes for those iconic images- the zipline, the Love Actually parody, the driving a small forklift through a Styrofoam wall. They're bloody good images.

    But they depend on the suspension of disbelief in a moment in time. You have to ignore the "hey, that Love Actually guy was actually a bit creepy hitting on someone who has just got married". You have to switch off the before and after for the zipline. You have to not question "what if it's not as simple as driving through Styrofoam?"

    And Boris's problem as PM is he doesn't get a good editor. We all see the before and the after. And at some point between 0 and 10 years time, that will destroy him. I don't know when, but I'm fairly confident about how.
    This is hardly a revelation. All political careers end in failure

    My guess is Boris will go around 2025-26 after scraping one more victory

    However it should be noted that about a year ago I was predicting he would retire early in 2021

    Boris has a tendency to surprise, and, generally, he tends to surprise on the upside. He wins at mayoralties when he should lose. He gets 80 seat majorities no one expected. Even as you scoff, do not underestimate him
  • BBC News spoke to Dudley North, I'm not sure that's very high on the Labour target list?
  • geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Starmer had left by the time of the Carl Beech allegations, if that is what you mean.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    No, he wanted to let the public choose whether to back the Deal or not.
    No, it really really fucking isn't. You could not put REMAIN on the ballot sheet. It was an attempt to reverse the vote, to destroy democracy, without ever acknowledging or enacting the first vote. It was evil

    Here's a mindgame for the hard of thinking Remoaners like you

    Imagine if Scotland had voted YES by 52-48 in 2014. Voted for independence

    Would anyone - anyone - in their right minds, have proposed "ignoring" this vote because it was wrong, because independence was impossible, or difficult, or because the voters were stupid, racist or misinformed? Would ANY British or Scottish government have proposed ANOTHER Scottish indy referendum, with NO on the ballot, without even bothering to enact the first one, making Scotland independent?

    Of course not. No way. It would have been the fast track to civil war and blood on the streets of Scotland. It would have been an act of insane immorality.

    Why is Scotland any different to Britain? It is not. We voted. That vote had to be enacted. Brexit had to be done, even if you hated it, Because anything else would have destroyed British democracy for a century (who bother voting for anything if they can just ignore it??) and it might easily have led to major violence on the streets

    THAT is what Remoaners wanted to do. That is what Starmer wanted to do. We must never ever forget.

    It was Trump's march on the Capitol, except it was ever so polite and British and middle class and genteel

    The public did get a say. When Sir Keir’s stop Brexit ruse was put to them at the GE, they left labour in their droves
    I think you've just killed off Leon's argument: the public could have democratically chosen to give themselves another vote; they democratically chose not to.
    Was there ever talk of having another referendum without a GE first? It’s all so bonkers and long ago I can barely believe it was even tried on
    Absolutely yes. Starmer wanted a 2nd vote ASAP
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    🚨BREAKING🚨

    Our snap poll with @SkyNewsBreak on Starmer's speech is out!

    The verdict - Fairly positive.

    % who think he came across as:
    🔴Cares about ordinary people - 68%
    🔴Competent - 62%
    🔴In touch with people’s concerns - 60%
    🔴Strong - 57%
    🔴Interesting - 41% https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1443278145126342656/photo/1

    Of the tiny minority who watched it.
    What they did is show highlights to a sample of 1330, and compared it with previous similar experiments with first-time leader speeches - he did better (5.9/10) than Corbyn 2015 (5.1), who in turn did better than Johnson 2019 (4.1).

    Which shows the limitations, since Johnson actually won. But although most people won't have seen this speech, it does suggest that he comes across well when people listen to him - and there will be plenty more opportunities for that as we emerge from lockdown. The key finding is probably that 63% agreed with what he had to say, vs. 29% who didn't.

    Worth remembering that, for all his real talents, BoJo is a surprisingly poor live public speaker. He's not done the mythical 10 000 hours of slogging away trying to convince a hostile (and sober) audience.

    Overall, it works for him, but it's noticeable.
    Yes, indeed

    When I was compiling my "conference speeches I remember" list (see below for more excitement!) it struck me that I can't remember a single line of a Boris conference speech, not even a joke, I don't think - and he tells pretty good jokes

    What I do remember is the PR and the stunts and the TV shows

    The TV Love Actually rip off advert - superb, one of the best electoral ads I've ever seen

    The interview where he speaks Ancient Greek from the Iliad for five minutes

    HIGNFYou

    Driving through a wall

    Donnez moi un break


    He's often good at the "impromptu" stuff and he can be absolutely brilliant at staged TV, but in general he's a poor speaker, especially at conferences
    I remembering Boris tripping up as he walked to the mike stand when he won the London mayoralty and saying, 'Ah... Ken's final booby trap!' (or something alike that). I thought it was quite a good ad-lib at the time, but it was probably all completely planned.
    Yes, again, it is little images and vignettes


    Boris throwing the basketball and somehow scoring from miles away

    Boris stuck on the zipline with the flags

    Boris doing that hand up Feel the Force thing and the cameraman falling over

    Boris in absurd shorts and shirt combo on holiday


    Cartoon images. But in an instagram age, this visual memorability may be a key asset
    Boris with a broom after the London Riots of 2011.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,732
    edited September 2021
    Prof Alice RobertsBlue heart
    @theAliceRoberts

    Two outstanding women have just been given Special Recognition Awards for communication and public engagement at #TheBMJAwards: Profs @chrischirp & @devisridhar

    There’s so much disinformation & it can be hard to find trusted sources; if you don’t already - please follow them!



  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Farooq said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    No, he wanted to let the public choose whether to back the Deal or not.
    No, it really really fucking isn't. You could not put REMAIN on the ballot sheet. It was an attempt to reverse the vote, to destroy democracy, without ever acknowledging or enacting the first vote. It was evil

    Here's a mindgame for the hard of thinking Remoaners like you

    Imagine if Scotland had voted YES by 52-48 in 2014. Voted for independence

    Would anyone - anyone - in their right minds, have proposed "ignoring" this vote because it was wrong, because independence was impossible, or difficult, or because the voters were stupid, racist or misinformed? Would ANY British or Scottish government have proposed ANOTHER Scottish indy referendum, with NO on the ballot, without even bothering to enact the first one, making Scotland independent?

    Of course not. No way. It would have been the fast track to civil war and blood on the streets of Scotland. It would have been an act of insane immorality.

    Why is Scotland any different to Britain? It is not. We voted. That vote had to be enacted. Brexit had to be done, even if you hated it, Because anything else would have destroyed British democracy for a century (who bother voting for anything if they can just ignore it??) and it might easily have led to major violence on the streets

    THAT is what Remoaners wanted to do. That is what Starmer wanted to do. We must never ever forget.

    It was Trump's march on the Capitol, except it was ever so polite and British and middle class and genteel

    The public did get a say. When Sir Keir’s stop Brexit ruse was put to them at the GE, they left labour in their droves
    I think you've just killed off Leon's argument: the public could have democratically chosen to give themselves another vote; they democratically chose not to.
    So Remoaners wanted to cancel democracy by having a vote, but they were thwarted by Brexshitters holding a vote.

    It's all so simple really.
    But we’d already had a vote. And the only reason they wanted to have another one was because they lost
  • Cyclefree said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    He was also in charge of the CPS when the Rotherham grooming gangs were being investigated. But I doubt if his record there will be of interest to many.
    Really? I reckon that will be the basis of a smear campaign at the next election.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349
    edited September 2021

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    No, he wanted to let the public choose whether to back the Deal or not.
    No, it really really fucking isn't. You could not put REMAIN on the ballot sheet. It was an attempt to reverse the vote, to destroy democracy, without ever acknowledging or enacting the first vote. It was evil

    Here's a mindgame for the hard of thinking Remoaners like you

    Imagine if Scotland had voted YES by 52-48 in 2014. Voted for independence

    Would anyone - anyone - in their right minds, have proposed "ignoring" this vote because it was wrong, because independence was impossible, or difficult, or because the voters were stupid, racist or misinformed? Would ANY British or Scottish government have proposed ANOTHER Scottish indy referendum, with NO on the ballot, without even bothering to enact the first one, making Scotland independent?

    Of course not. No way. It would have been the fast track to civil war and blood on the streets of Scotland. It would have been an act of insane immorality.

    Why is Scotland any different to Britain? It is not. We voted. That vote had to be enacted. Brexit had to be done, even if you hated it, Because anything else would have destroyed British democracy for a century (who bother voting for anything if they can just ignore it??) and it might easily have led to major violence on the streets

    THAT is what Remoaners wanted to do. That is what Starmer wanted to do. We must never ever forget.

    It was Trump's march on the Capitol, except it was ever so polite and British and middle class and genteel

    The public did get a say. When Sir Keir’s stop Brexit ruse was put to them at the GE, they left labour in their droves
    I think you've just killed off Leon's argument: the public could have democratically chosen to give themselves another vote; they democratically chose not to.
    A second vote at any time would have been wrong, without enacting the first.

    But Starmer went further, he wanted a 2nd vote whatever, before an election, no problem


    "PoliticsHome has learned that Mr Lavery accused Sir Keir, the Shadow Brexit Secretary, of trying to "ram down my throat" his support for a referendum before a general election."

    BEFORE

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/ian-lavery-rounds-on-keir-starmer-over-second-referendum-as-labour-splits-on-brexit-erupt
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,310
    Cyclefree said:

    The other fact that came out today at the Old Bailey was that Couzens wiped his phone only minutes before he was arrested. How very coincidental and convenient.

    From my header earlier this year -

    "Despite his planning and attempts to cover his tracks, he gave his police mobile number to the firm from which he hired the car he used for the kidnap. That mistake (or arrogance) was what caught him."

    Arrogance? Or did he have a mate who could be relied on to wipe that from the record? Or who tipped him off?

    Those are the sorts of questions an investigator should be asking now.

    Instead we're getting the full spin campaign about how disgusted the police are.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    No, he wanted to let the public choose whether to back the Deal or not.
    No, it really really fucking isn't. You could not put REMAIN on the ballot sheet. It was an attempt to reverse the vote, to destroy democracy, without ever acknowledging or enacting the first vote. It was evil

    Here's a mindgame for the hard of thinking Remoaners like you

    Imagine if Scotland had voted YES by 52-48 in 2014. Voted for independence

    Would anyone - anyone - in their right minds, have proposed "ignoring" this vote because it was wrong, because independence was impossible, or difficult, or because the voters were stupid, racist or misinformed? Would ANY British or Scottish government have proposed ANOTHER Scottish indy referendum, with NO on the ballot, without even bothering to enact the first one, making Scotland independent?

    Of course not. No way. It would have been the fast track to civil war and blood on the streets of Scotland. It would have been an act of insane immorality.

    Why is Scotland any different to Britain? It is not. We voted. That vote had to be enacted. Brexit had to be done, even if you hated it, Because anything else would have destroyed British democracy for a century (who bother voting for anything if they can just ignore it??) and it might easily have led to major violence on the streets

    THAT is what Remoaners wanted to do. That is what Starmer wanted to do. We must never ever forget.

    It was Trump's march on the Capitol, except it was ever so polite and British and middle class and genteel

    The public did get a say. When Sir Keir’s stop Brexit ruse was put to them at the GE, they left labour in their droves
    I think you've just killed off Leon's argument: the public could have democratically chosen to give themselves another vote; they democratically chose not to.
    Was there ever talk of having another referendum without a GE first? It’s all so bonkers and long ago I can barely believe it was even tried on
    Boris's brother Jo? He wanted a 'people's vote', knew the Tories wouldn't offer one and didn't campaign for Labour, so presumably he wanted a second referendum to appear out of thin air. (But he and Boris are still speaking I believe.)
  • gealbhan said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Britain ordered soldiers to start driving fuel tankers to replenish empty pumps, as motorists remained stuck in queues after nearly a week of shortages. That's despite politicians' assurances things were improving
    https://reut.rs/3oxyXiH https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1443313381352644608/video/1

    "Despite reassurances things were improving"? Things are improving. Most stations are already back to normal which is precisely why there was never any reason to panic buy.
    Then why send the Troops in now? 🤔

    Some sort of assessment rolling news in places of closed stations will just prolong it even further? That the original problem that sparked it hasn’t gone away?
    Or take credit for the problem being resolved - which it would have been either way.

    If the media/panic buyers get the blame for this crisis, and he can be the leader who got it resolved, then win/win.

    Who cares if it would have been resolved without his or the militaries involvement anyway?

    Goes back to the conversation earlier today here about Boris being sly and cunning.
    Whatever the reason, having your population queuing for petrol is not a good look. From reading foreign media reports, you'd get the impression that the UK isn't far off becoming a failed state!
    Failed state? Oh give over!

    This isn't the first time that panic buyers have caused a clear out and it won't be the last. The irony is perhaps that its happened so often recently, with the toilet paper etc, that people are rather immune to the surprise of it and know full well that dingbats are to blame.
    Yes, the foreign press, like ours, are prone to exaggeration. None of them have managed to incide a run on petrol though.

    You only need a one spark to start a forest fire, but it'll only happen if the ground is tinder dry.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Farooq said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    No, he wanted to let the public choose whether to back the Deal or not.
    No, it really really fucking isn't. You could not put REMAIN on the ballot sheet. It was an attempt to reverse the vote, to destroy democracy, without ever acknowledging or enacting the first vote. It was evil

    Here's a mindgame for the hard of thinking Remoaners like you

    Imagine if Scotland had voted YES by 52-48 in 2014. Voted for independence

    Would anyone - anyone - in their right minds, have proposed "ignoring" this vote because it was wrong, because independence was impossible, or difficult, or because the voters were stupid, racist or misinformed? Would ANY British or Scottish government have proposed ANOTHER Scottish indy referendum, with NO on the ballot, without even bothering to enact the first one, making Scotland independent?

    Of course not. No way. It would have been the fast track to civil war and blood on the streets of Scotland. It would have been an act of insane immorality.

    Why is Scotland any different to Britain? It is not. We voted. That vote had to be enacted. Brexit had to be done, even if you hated it, Because anything else would have destroyed British democracy for a century (who bother voting for anything if they can just ignore it??) and it might easily have led to major violence on the streets

    THAT is what Remoaners wanted to do. That is what Starmer wanted to do. We must never ever forget.

    It was Trump's march on the Capitol, except it was ever so polite and British and middle class and genteel

    The public did get a say. When Sir Keir’s stop Brexit ruse was put to them at the GE, they left labour in their droves
    I think you've just killed off Leon's argument: the public could have democratically chosen to give themselves another vote; they democratically chose not to.
    So Remoaners wanted to cancel democracy by having a vote, but they were thwarted by Brexshitters holding a vote.

    It's all so simple really.
    It’s easy to mock that, but the problem was it was done in bad faith. Retainers tried to use the idea of a new referendum as a backdrop way to overturning the vote. I’m sure they believed that was the right thing for the country. But it enraged many, even among those who had voted remain, but thought Brexit needed to be done. The fiction of having the ‘best’ leave deal vs remain was a joke, as we have seen in the last 5 years. What is the best deal? No one know, and it will take many years to find out.
  • geoffw said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Barcelona won't even make the Europa League.

    Barcelona are more fecked than a stepmom on you know where.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/sep/29/real-madrid-can-spend-eight-times-as-much-as-barcelona
    That would be the Real Madrid that lost last night to a Moldovan team knocked out last year by Dundalk?
    Trans-Dniepr actually.

    Moldova, legally.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    Prof Alice RobertsBlue heart
    @theAliceRoberts

    Two outstanding women have just been given Special Recognition Awards for communication and public engagement at #TheBMJAwards: Profs @chrischirp & @devisridhar

    There’s so much disinformation & it can be hard to find trusted sources; if you don’t already - please follow them!



    Siri, define irony.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,373
    edited September 2021
    Leon said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    No, he wanted to let the public choose whether to back the Deal or not.
    No, it really really fucking isn't. You could not put REMAIN on the ballot sheet. It was an attempt to reverse the vote, to destroy democracy, without ever acknowledging or enacting the first vote. It was evil

    Here's a mindgame for the hard of thinking Remoaners like you

    Imagine if Scotland had voted YES by 52-48 in 2014. Voted for independence

    Would anyone - anyone - in their right minds, have proposed "ignoring" this vote because it was wrong, because independence was impossible, or difficult, or because the voters were stupid, racist or misinformed? Would ANY British or Scottish government have proposed ANOTHER Scottish indy referendum, with NO on the ballot, without even bothering to enact the first one, making Scotland independent?

    Of course not. No way. It would have been the fast track to civil war and blood on the streets of Scotland. It would have been an act of insane immorality.

    Why is Scotland any different to Britain? It is not. We voted. That vote had to be enacted. Brexit had to be done, even if you hated it, Because anything else would have destroyed British democracy for a century (who bother voting for anything if they can just ignore it??) and it might easily have led to major violence on the streets

    THAT is what Remoaners wanted to do. That is what Starmer wanted to do. We must never ever forget.

    It was Trump's march on the Capitol, except it was ever so polite and British and middle class and genteel

    The public did get a say. When Sir Keir’s stop Brexit ruse was put to them at the GE, they left labour in their droves
    I'm actually ashamed of myself for forgetting this. Starmer wanted to do a Trump on Brexit, he wanted to reverse democracy, and make Britain some kind of banana republic. And I was falling for his "nice guy" shtick

    UGH, what a fraud. NEVER STARMER
    Oh please, "Reverse democracy"? At least Starmer was proposing a second vote. Johnson has just reversed freedom of movement, or should I say partially reversed? Johnny Foreigner can come over here to work, whilst we can't reciprocate, and without another referendum.
  • gealbhan said:

    gealbhan said:

    Leon said:

    Anecdata


    A floating voter friend of mine - soft Remain, but hates Remoaners - has texted me

    "Watched a bit of Keir. I like him. He's honest. I'm bored of Boris. I will vote for Keir next time"

    He's in a quasi-marginal and voted Tory in 2019.....

    Philip Thompson is right! The electorate are going to be an ungrateful bunch towards everything Boris has done for them.
    Why do you keep [mis]quoting me? Especially for things I haven't said the way you say it?

    It's weird and a little creepy.
    You said it in an answer to my post after the new tax was introduced. That they could be ungrateful and not stick with him.

    What do you (mistakenly) claim you said?
    Saying people "could be ungrateful" is different from saying people "are going to be an ungrateful bunch". You don't see the difference?

    People don't generally do gratitude in politics but I would never call people "an ungrateful bunch" that's just unnecessarily rude. That isn't how I speak.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,994

    What is the best deal? No one know, and it will take many years to find out.

    We do know.

    The best deal was the one we tore up.

    It may take years for Brexiteers to admit it, but it is already known.
  • geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    A good try at muck raking, but I think there is 12 months between his time as DPP and the operation midland.
  • BBC News spoke to Dudley North, I'm not sure that's very high on the Labour target list?

    It bloody should be. Labour under Blair.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349
    Starmer, the "nice guy", the "honest politician"

    "Starmer shifts Labour towards second EU referendum

    "The frontbencher stresses the party's commitment to consider a further Brexit vote if it could not force a general election."

    "The frontbencher argued the point had been reached where Labour had agreed that if a general election could not be secured then the party "must" consider all options on the table, including a further public vote.

    Stressing the importance of the previously made commitment, he insisted it was "one we must keep"."

    He literally claimed that ignoring the first vote and then having a 2nd to try and reverse it was about "keeping promises"

    https://news.sky.com/story/starmer-shifts-labour-towards-second-eu-referendum-11611558


    There's tons of this. From 2016-2019 Starmer was furiously trying to cancel Brexit, and do a little coup, just because he didn't like Brexit.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468

    Off topic

    Hats off to United Airlines who are in the process of firing nearly 600 vaccine dodgers.

    And New York firing hundreds of health workers who refuse to get vaccinated.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349
    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker
  • BBC News spoke to Dudley North, I'm not sure that's very high on the Labour target list?

    It bloody should be. Labour under Blair.
    I meant in terms of majority to overturn, it's low on the list.

    Of course they should target it regardless, maybe because it's a seat they need to win a majority, not sure
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,195
    tlg86 said:

    Sky News in Bassetlaw - “the kind of place Starmer must win back”

    I don’t think that’s right.

    It's not. Labour target 159, the mining link is long gone here.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,373
    Foxy said:

    Off topic

    Hats off to United Airlines who are in the process of firing nearly 600 vaccine dodgers.

    Presumably because of increased risk to others 🤔
    I would have thought so.
  • Prof Alice RobertsBlue heart
    @theAliceRoberts

    Two outstanding women have just been given Special Recognition Awards for communication and public engagement at #TheBMJAwards: Profs @chrischirp & @devisridhar

    There’s so much disinformation & it can be hard to find trusted sources; if you don’t already - please follow them!



    Siri, define irony.
    Well, they've certainly engaged the media, if not the public. Never off the TV rolling news.

    Whether that has helped spread trusted sources I leave as an exercise.
  • geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
    Proctor is wrong.

    Operation Midland began in November 2014.

    Starmer stood down as DPP in November 2013.

    Perhaps you can show me evidence otherwise?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,195

    BBC News spoke to Dudley North, I'm not sure that's very high on the Labour target list?

    It bloody should be. Labour under Blair.
    I meant in terms of majority to overturn, it's low on the list.

    Of course they should target it regardless, maybe because it's a seat they need to win a majority, not sure
    It's target 186 for Labour - another seat they aren't getting back any time soon, but also don't need.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    edited September 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    What is the best deal? No one know, and it will take many years to find out.

    We do know.

    The best deal was the one we tore up.

    It may take years for Brexiteers to admit it, but it is already known.
    So certain are you... Give it time. The current lack of hgv drivers would eventually lead to higher pay and better conditions for Hgv drivers. That’s what the market does. I’ve seen it in pharmacy over the years. Train more pharmacists, eventually pay goes down, and conditions get worse. The issue is how do you handle the short term adjustment. In the transport industry the bosses want to keep costs low and keep using foreign labour. We voted not to do that, but we need to stand firm and sort our own house.
    But you wont care, because you already know the answer.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,528
    edited September 2021
    geoffw said:

    What makes you think they're accurate?

    Going a bit off opinion polls, are we? Curious, that.
  • BBC News spoke to Dudley North, I'm not sure that's very high on the Labour target list?

    It bloody should be. Labour under Blair.
    I meant in terms of majority to overturn, it's low on the list.

    Of course they should target it regardless, maybe because it's a seat they need to win a majority, not sure
    Yes its #185 on Labour's target list.

    OTOH it was Labour until 2019 so some swingback to Labour could be possible considering it was always theirs before then.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,195
    Sky News should probably head to Milton Keynes, north and south are realistic targets for Labour; both were Labour in 2005.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,720

    geoffw said:

    What makes you think they're accurate?

    Going a bit off opinion polls, are we? Curious, that.
    I don't think I've ever made a comment on polls previously. So what are you saying?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
    Proctor is wrong.

    Operation Midland began in November 2014.

    Starmer stood down as DPP in November 2013.

    Perhaps you can show me evidence otherwise?
    The link is that it was Starmers ‘believe the claimant’ policy that caused Proctor so much unnecessary harm. In that case some fairly obvious basic background checks would have shown it all to be a pack of lies, such as talking to Beeches ex wife.
  • Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sky News in Bassetlaw - “the kind of place Starmer must win back”

    I don’t think that’s right.

    It's not. Labour target 159, the mining link is long gone here.
    So who lives there now? I suspect it is classic swing territory as young families, commuters and Amazon warehouse workers for nearby Ashfield and Mansfield outnumber the ex miners.

    Sounds like exactly where Labour should be trying to turn the tide.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Leon said:

    Starmer, the "nice guy", the "honest politician"

    "Starmer shifts Labour towards second EU referendum

    "The frontbencher stresses the party's commitment to consider a further Brexit vote if it could not force a general election."

    "The frontbencher argued the point had been reached where Labour had agreed that if a general election could not be secured then the party "must" consider all options on the table, including a further public vote.

    Stressing the importance of the previously made commitment, he insisted it was "one we must keep"."

    He literally claimed that ignoring the first vote and then having a 2nd to try and reverse it was about "keeping promises"

    https://news.sky.com/story/starmer-shifts-labour-towards-second-eu-referendum-11611558


    There's tons of this. From 2016-2019 Starmer was furiously trying to cancel Brexit, and do a little coup, just because he didn't like Brexit.

    https://twitter.com/asfarasdelgados/status/1390290292339875847?s=21
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349

    Farooq said:

    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    No, he wanted to let the public choose whether to back the Deal or not.
    No, it really really fucking isn't. You could not put REMAIN on the ballot sheet. It was an attempt to reverse the vote, to destroy democracy, without ever acknowledging or enacting the first vote. It was evil

    Here's a mindgame for the hard of thinking Remoaners like you

    Imagine if Scotland had voted YES by 52-48 in 2014. Voted for independence

    Would anyone - anyone - in their right minds, have proposed "ignoring" this vote because it was wrong, because independence was impossible, or difficult, or because the voters were stupid, racist or misinformed? Would ANY British or Scottish government have proposed ANOTHER Scottish indy referendum, with NO on the ballot, without even bothering to enact the first one, making Scotland independent?

    Of course not. No way. It would have been the fast track to civil war and blood on the streets of Scotland. It would have been an act of insane immorality.

    Why is Scotland any different to Britain? It is not. We voted. That vote had to be enacted. Brexit had to be done, even if you hated it, Because anything else would have destroyed British democracy for a century (who bother voting for anything if they can just ignore it??) and it might easily have led to major violence on the streets

    THAT is what Remoaners wanted to do. That is what Starmer wanted to do. We must never ever forget.

    It was Trump's march on the Capitol, except it was ever so polite and British and middle class and genteel

    The public did get a say. When Sir Keir’s stop Brexit ruse was put to them at the GE, they left labour in their droves
    I think you've just killed off Leon's argument: the public could have democratically chosen to give themselves another vote; they democratically chose not to.
    So Remoaners wanted to cancel democracy by having a vote, but they were thwarted by Brexshitters holding a vote.

    It's all so simple really.
    It’s easy to mock that, but the problem was it was done in bad faith. Retainers tried to use the idea of a new referendum as a backdrop way to overturning the vote. I’m sure they believed that was the right thing for the country. But it enraged many, even among those who had voted remain, but thought Brexit needed to be done. The fiction of having the ‘best’ leave deal vs remain was a joke, as we have seen in the last 5 years. What is the best deal? No one know, and it will take many years to find out.
    The greatest irony, of course, is that by acting in such bad faith and trying to overturn Brexit, and ignore democracy, Remoaners like Starmer ensured the hardest Brexit possible

    If they had accepted Brexit from the get go, and pursued a supersoft Brexit: staying in the SM and keeping FoM, that is what would have happened. Leavers like Hannan would have compromised, a lot of angst would have been avoided, and we could have spent a decade in EEA/EFTA deciding what we want long term

    That would also have given Remoaners a pretty easy way back in to the EU, one day

    Instead they played into the hands of the Hardest of Hard Brexiteers, and fucked it all up for themselves
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,104
    edited September 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The other fact that came out today at the Old Bailey was that Couzens wiped his phone only minutes before he was arrested. How very coincidental and convenient.

    From my header earlier this year -

    "Despite his planning and attempts to cover his tracks, he gave his police mobile number to the firm from which he hired the car he used for the kidnap. That mistake (or arrogance) was what caught him."

    Arrogance? Or did he have a mate who could be relied on to wipe that from the record? Or who tipped him off?

    Those are the sorts of questions an investigator should be asking now.

    Instead we're getting the full spin campaign about how disgusted the police are.
    Well, gods forbid people get so disgusted that the police do something rash, like anything.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
    Proctor is wrong.

    Operation Midland began in November 2014.

    Starmer stood down as DPP in November 2013.

    Perhaps you can show me evidence otherwise?
    The link is that it was Starmers ‘believe the claimant’ policy that caused Proctor so much unnecessary harm. In that case some fairly obvious basic background checks would have shown it all to be a pack of lies, such as talking to Beeches ex wife.
    On the BBC documentary about it, Beech’s ex is absolutely hilarious
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,349
    isam said:

    Leon said:

    Starmer, the "nice guy", the "honest politician"

    "Starmer shifts Labour towards second EU referendum

    "The frontbencher stresses the party's commitment to consider a further Brexit vote if it could not force a general election."

    "The frontbencher argued the point had been reached where Labour had agreed that if a general election could not be secured then the party "must" consider all options on the table, including a further public vote.

    Stressing the importance of the previously made commitment, he insisted it was "one we must keep"."

    He literally claimed that ignoring the first vote and then having a 2nd to try and reverse it was about "keeping promises"

    https://news.sky.com/story/starmer-shifts-labour-towards-second-eu-referendum-11611558


    There's tons of this. From 2016-2019 Starmer was furiously trying to cancel Brexit, and do a little coup, just because he didn't like Brexit.

    https://twitter.com/asfarasdelgados/status/1390290292339875847?s=21
    Nauseating


    And that lofty tone of voice as Starmer blithely says he wants to ignore 17.4m voters and tell them they don't matter because they are thick

    "It's a really important point of principle"

    Jesus FC
  • BBC News spoke to Dudley North, I'm not sure that's very high on the Labour target list?

    It bloody should be. Labour under Blair.
    Dudley North was Labour under Corbyn.

    Its swung from being 20% more Labour than the country in 2015 to 20% more Conservative than the country in 2019.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,559
    Pulpstar said:

    Sky News should probably head to Milton Keynes, north and south are realistic targets for Labour; both were Labour in 2005.

    Milton Keynes, Swindon, Northampton, Stevenage, Watford, Reading West. Places like that.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    isam said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
    Proctor is wrong.

    Operation Midland began in November 2014.

    Starmer stood down as DPP in November 2013.

    Perhaps you can show me evidence otherwise?
    The link is that it was Starmers ‘believe the claimant’ policy that caused Proctor so much unnecessary harm. In that case some fairly obvious basic background checks would have shown it all to be a pack of lies, such as talking to Beeches ex wife.
    On the BBC documentary about it, Beech’s ex is absolutely hilarious
    Not seen that, but it was such a basic thing to do. I fear @Cyclefree is on the ball about the met.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,665
    Leon said:

    A decent Tory election machine should be able to use this 2nd referendum Trumpite Starmer
    bollocks to utterly trash Starmer. It is all there, online. He can't erase it, he can't lie and say it didn't happen

    Wanker

    They won't... because there's only a few sad old gits like you stuck in a Brexit timewarp who give a shit about what happened before the last election.

    The economy, health, and taxation will be the only topics for the next GE.

    Time to move on.
  • geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
    Proctor is wrong.

    Operation Midland began in November 2014.

    Starmer stood down as DPP in November 2013.

    Perhaps you can show me evidence otherwise?
    Proctor says that Starmer created the culture that allowed Operation Midland to begin. He created the environment that every 'victim' must be believed, which allowed a non-victim like Beech to claim to be a victim afterwards.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,195
    edited September 2021

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sky News in Bassetlaw - “the kind of place Starmer must win back”

    I don’t think that’s right.

    It's not. Labour target 159, the mining link is long gone here.
    So who lives there now? I suspect it is classic swing territory as young families, commuters and Amazon warehouse workers for nearby Ashfield and Mansfield outnumber the ex miners.

    Sounds like exactly where Labour should be trying to turn the tide.
    Just full of normal people tbh - but the constituency overwhelmingly voted to leave the EU. That makes it very hard for Labour. As I said Milton Keynes would probably be a better place to gauge his speech as Starmer might be able to form a Gov't if he takes both of those.
    He'll be at about 400 seats if he takes Bassetlaw and Dudley North.
  • BBC News spoke to Dudley North, I'm not sure that's very high on the Labour target list?

    It bloody should be. Labour under Blair.
    Dudley North was Labour under Corbyn.

    Its swung from being 20% more Labour than the country in 2015 to 20% more Conservative than the country in 2019.
    Should be very winnable then. Get Rayner up there.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Unsurprisingly, the front pages are about Sarah.

    But Sky’s review starting with Starmer.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    While people are mildly praising Starmer today, remember that, as Shadow Brexit Minister, he wanted to cancel British democracy and call a 2nd referendum , before we'd even enacted the first

    That shows astonishing lack of judgement, and political morals. He was happy, indeed eager to ignore the votes of 17.4m people - the largest vote in British history - just because he didn't like what they said. Because he knew better

    "We need to ask the public whether they are prepared to leave with the best deal that can be negotiated or whether they wouldn’t rather stay in the EU. There is no other way to break the Brexit cycle and for the country to move on."

    https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/keir-starmer-labour-is-committed-to-a-second-referendum-a4243906.html


    Starmer is an absolute fucking fraud. Posing as the decent honest common sense guy. He wanted to destroy democracy

    Fuck him. I hope the Tories use this "minor detail" properly and ruthlessly, and destroy him. It must not ever be forgotten: what Remoaners like Starmer proposed to do. It is no better than what Trumpites wanted to do at the Capitol

    May not play so well when Captain Foresight is thought to be correct by such a high percentage of the population.


    It really doesn't matter. He wanted to cancel democracy. UGH

    He needs to apologise for this, at the very least

    I take back every nice thing I said about Starmer, earlier today. I'd quite forgotten that this was his Brexit stance. Repulsive. And be bangs on about morals and decency? Pass the sick-bag, VOM

    Where was Starmer in his DPP role in the matter of the false VIP child abuse scandal which ruined several prominent peoples' lives? That should not be forgotten.
    Hate to shit on your fake news/smear but Operation Midland began in 2014 and Starmer stopped being DPP in 2013.
    Hold your shit.
    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9628883/sir-keir-starmer-vip-carl-beech-paedo-ring/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9391475/Keir-Starmer-accused-sitting-fence-calls-public-inquiry-paedophile-probe.html
    Proctor is wrong.

    Operation Midland began in November 2014.

    Starmer stood down as DPP in November 2013.

    Perhaps you can show me evidence otherwise?
    Starmer introduced the rule change that required police to assume Carl Beech was telling the truth

  • The link is that it was Starmers ‘believe the claimant’ policy that caused Proctor so much unnecessary harm. In that case some fairly obvious basic background checks would have shown it all to be a pack of lies, such as talking to Beeches ex wife.

    People misunderstood that policy, nor do they understand the charging process.

    The police do the bulk of the heavy lifting.

    The headline in the Mail article doesn't match the reality.

    However, the former Director of Public Prosecutions did appear more supportive of a ‘much wider inquiry’ into the ‘whole criminal justice system’ which facilitated the debacle.

    Last week, Home Secretary Priti Patel ruled out ordering a criminal probe into Midland.


    I mean if Starmer had screwed up Patel would have ordered a criminal probe into Midland.
This discussion has been closed.